Who are the Apostles?

[RandomGuy]

Interesting bit on a new movement in the religious right.

While I have no objection to evanvangelising, this group seems to be flirting with seizing countrol of the goverment to do that by force. It seems their primary aim is an actual theocracy.


----------------------------------------



What is the New Apostolic Reformation? Seven Mountains Campaign?
Rachel Tabachnick


Later this week Harvard will host an event titled Social Transformation by the Power of God featuring several leading apostles who travel the world promoting the Seven Mountains campaign for Christian dominion over society. Following is a brief (approximately 1000 word) description of the ideology and history of the New Apostolic Reformation movement to which these apostles belong, followed by links to additional resources.


Ideology
The New Apostolic Reformation can now be defined as a distinct movement with a unique ideology. The leaders of the movement, called apostles and prophets, claim that this is the most significant change in Protestantism since Martin Luther and the Reformation. The stated goal of the NAR is to eradicate denominations and form a unified church that will be victorious against evil in the end times. Like many American fundamentalists, the apostles teach that the events of the end times are imminent, but unlike fundamentalists, the apostles see this as a time of great victory for the church. Instead of escaping the earth (in the Rapture)* prior to the turmoil of the end times, they teach that believers will defeat evil by taking dominion, or control, over all sectors of society and government, resulting in mass conversions to their brand of Charismatic evangelicalism and a Christian utopia or "Kingdom" on earth. The Transformations movies, Transformation organizations worldwide, and the Seven Mountains campaign are promotional tools to market their methodology for taking Christian dominion over: arts; business; education; family; government; media; and religion. The apostles who lead in areas outside church are called Workplace or Marketplace Apostles.

The apostles teach that the obstacles to their envisioned Kingdom on earth are literal demonic beings who hold control over geographic territory and specific "people groups." They claim this demonic control is the reason why people of other religions refuse to become evangelized and that the demons are also the source of crime, corruption, illness, poverty, and homosexuality. Purging of the demons results in mass evangelization and eradication of social ills, as claimed in the Transformations, media. The apostles teach that their followers are currently receiving an outpouring of supernatural powers to help them fight these demons through what they call Strategic Level Spiritual Warfare (SLSW).

These unique concepts and methodologies, previously unknown in the evangelical world, include spiritual mapping to identify and purge both demons and their human helpers, sometimes identified in training materials as witches and witchcraft. Another requirement of this utopian Kingdom on earth is the restructuring of all Charismatic evangelical believers under the authority of their network of apostles, the eradication or unification of denominations, and the total elimination of competing religions and philosophies.

Many of the evangelical "Reconciliation" programs popularized over the last decade are an outgrowth of the apostles' SLSW efforts to remove demons including "generational curses" which they claim obstruct evangelization of specific ethnicity groups. These activities have political significance not apparent to outsiders. For instance, Senator Sam Brownback worked extensively with leading apostles in pursuing an official apology from the U.S. Senate to Native Americans. However, the NAR advertised this Identificational Repentance and Reconciliation a SLSW method to remove demonic control over Native Americans, evangelize tribes, and curiously, as a required step in their spiritual warfare progress in criminalizing abortion.

History

A wave of charismatic religious fervor swept through the U.S. in the early 1900s resulting in Pentecostalism and the establishment of denominations emphasizing supernatural "gifts of the Holy Spirit," including speaking in tongues. A second wave swept through other Protestant denominations and Roman Catholicism beginning in the 1960s, resulting in pockets of Charismatic believers. Some remained in their respective churches while the remainder left to join other nondenominational Charismatics in what would become the largest single (and largely overlooked) block of Protestantism in the world - Independent Charismatics, or the "Third Wave." By the late 1980s, Independent Charismatics began to be organized under the leadership of self-appointed apostles and prophets who view the reorganization of the church as crucial to preparation for the end times.

C. Peter Wagner, a prolific author and professor at Fuller Theological Seminary for 30 years, became the primary force behind organizing one of the largest and most influential of apostolic and prophetic networks. He dubbed it the "New Apostolic Reformation" (NAR). Wagner and other NAR pioneers refined their unique Strategic Level Spiritual Warfare training and demon-hunting methods through the latter 1980s and 1990s. Due to Wagner's international reputation as an expert in "Church Growth" (his most famous pupil is Rick Warren) and Wagner's leadership role in the frantic rush by international missions to evangelize the world prior to the year 2000, these unusual techniques gained surprising widespread acceptance in some evangelical circles.

With the aid of Ted Haggard (later president of the National Association of Evangelicals), Wagner left Fuller Seminary and continued his networking from the World Prayer Center in Colorado Springs. Wagner claimed that the NAR and a new era in church history began in 2001. He organized several hundred apostles with their own networks into the International Coalition of Apostles (ICA) which formed an inner circle of prophets (ACPE or Apostolic Council of Prophetic Elders), demon deliverance experts (ISDM or International Society of Deliverance Ministries), faith-healers (IAHR or International Association of Healing Room Ministries), an international training network (Wagner Leadership Institute), and their own educational accreditation system (ACEA or Apostolic Council for Educational Accountability).

These apostles and their networks work in "Transformation" efforts around the world including promotion of the Seven Mountains campaign for Christian dominion. The Transformation entities usually begin as prayer networks of pastors and individuals which are advertised as nonsectarian and emphasize charitable activities, often working with financially strapped municipalities. Today the NAR has "prayer warrior" networks under the authority of their apostles in all fifty states, some now organizing by precincts.

The movement has had a widespread impact, spreading ideology to other Charismatics inside Mainline Protestant denominations and Roman Catholicism, although non-Charismatic Roman Catholicism is viewed as controlled by a powerful demon named "The Queen of Heaven." The political potential of the movement is now being tapped by politicians including Sarah Palin, Newt Gingrich, Sam Brownback, Mike Huckabee, and others, as well as large numbers of local and state politicians. Over the last few years, the apostles have taken visible leadership roles in the Religious Right in the United States and numerous nations in Africa, Asia, and South America and claim Uganda as their greatest "Transformations" success story and prototype.

http://www.talk2action.org/story/2011/3/30/134253/237

[101A]

Interesting bit on a new movement in the religious right.

While I have no objection to evanvangelising, this group seems to be flirting with seizing countrol of the goverment to do that by force. It seems their primary aim is an actual theocracy.


----------------------------------------



What is the New Apostolic Reformation? Seven Mountains Campaign?
Rachel Tabachnick



http://www.talk2action.org/story/2011/3/30/134253/237

Charismatic protestant here.

Never heard of this; no doubt it exists, and with 7 billion people on earth has its proponents, converts and true believers. Certainly enough (1) to get the Boutons of the world to scream: "SEE, I TOLD YOU!!!!". Or, for that matter, to get Harvard to hold a seminar - certainly plays to some on the left's penchant for bigotry toward Christians and Christianity.

[ElNono]

How long until we have presidential candidates signing pleas from these guys?

[101A]

Here is there website, fwiw.

Global Spheres (http://globalspheres.org/)

Ironically, after doing the Google search, there was a page and a half of links of people who fear this group before I found their ACTUAL website. Anyway, not surprisingly, not only is the movement not huge, but it isn't even what it is espoused as being.

One paragraph from the site:


A theocracy. The usual meaning of theocracy is that a nation is run by authorized representatives of the church or its functional religious equivalent. Everyone I know in NAR would absolutely reject this idea, thinking back to Constantine’s failed experiment or some of the oppressive Islamic governments today. The way to achieve dominion is not to become “America’s Taliban,” but rather to have kingdom-minded people in every one of the Seven Mountains: Religion, Family, Education, Government, Media, Arts & Entertainment, and Business so that they can use their influence to create an environment in which the blessings and prosperity of the Kingdom of God can permeate all areas of society.

[boutons_deux]

"How long until we have presidential candidates signing pleas from these guys"

Jimmy Ricky is already heavily endorsed, in bed with NAR freakos. They were a huge presence at this "pray for rain" August meeting.

[RandomGuy]

Here is there website, fwiw.

Global Spheres (http://globalspheres.org/)

Ironically, after doing the Google search, there was a page and a half of links of people who fear this group before I found their ACTUAL website. Anyway, not surprisingly, not only is the movement not huge, but it isn't even what it is espoused as being.

One paragraph from the site:

Yeah, I get the feeling that the group itself is fairly small.

[Blake]

certainly plays to some on the left's penchant for bigotry toward Christians and Christianity.

lol bigotry

[cheguevara]

Theocracy is medium upkeep and gives us +2 experience points. I say let's do this.

[101A]

lol bigotry

Case in point. Apparently.

[101A]

Theocracy is medium upkeep and gives us +2 experience points. I say let's do this.

A reference I simply don't get. Am I too old?

[LnGrrrR]

A reference I simply don't get. Am I too old?

Yes, kinda :lol

It's from the popular game Civilization. Religion and governments are mashed together, and picking various types (theocracy, dictatorship, democracy) gives bonuses and penalties to your civilization. Fun game.

[Blake]

Case in point. Apparently.

You have no case in point and would rather prop up a strawman to help you play a victim card.

Apparently.

[101A]

You have no case in point and would rather prop up a strawman to help you play a victim card.

Apparently.

Are you seriously arguing that, and I'm quoting myself here: "Some on the left" do not, " have a penchant for bigotry against Christians and Christianity"? I don't consider myself a victim at all - but the strawman in this thread is obviously the one set up by myriad news sources (the OP being the most pertinent) discussing this apostolic movement which 1) isn't very large and 2) doesn't actually propose to do what the media is claiming it is doing.

The very definition of "Straw Man".

[101A]

Yeah, I get the feeling that the group itself is fairly small.

Ironically, however, since it is getting so much play in the media; it will probably grow, and, no doubt, an "American Taliban" will be spawned. I'm sure the idea does appeal to a few.

[Blake]

Are you seriously arguing that, and I'm quoting myself here: "Some on the left" do not, " have a penchant for bigotry against Christians and Christianity"? I don't consider myself a victim at all - but the strawman in this thread is obviously the one set up by myriad news sources (the OP being the most pertinent) discussing this apostolic movement which 1) isn't very large and 2) doesn't actually propose to do what the media is claiming it is doing.

The very definition of "Straw Man".

strawman on strawman action.

[RandomGuy]

Charismatic protestant here.

Never heard of this; no doubt it exists, and with 7 billion people on earth has its proponents, converts and true believers. Certainly enough (1) to get the Boutons of the world to scream: "SEE, I TOLD YOU!!!!". Or, for that matter, to get Harvard to hold a seminar - certainly plays to some on the left's penchant for bigotry toward Christians and Christianity.

I think there is some bias on the left against Christians and Christianity.

Just as sure as I am that Christians in this country overplay the results and instances of that bias. :dramaquee

Fox news types looove to play the victim card when it suits them, and just as quickly criticise others for doing so.

I am equally convinced that the right has a bias against anybody who isn't "as Christian" as they are that is far stronger than any anti-Christian sentiment on the left. The evangelicals are certainly making everybody fall all overthemselves to prove how "Christian" they are.

Do any Democratic groups of any size have "no religious" or "secular" pledges similar to what is being asked of the GOP candidates?

[101A]

I think there is some bias on the left against Christians and Christianity.

Just as sure as I am that Christians in this country overplay the results and instances of that bias. :dramaquee

Fox news types looove to play the victim card when it suits them, and just as quickly criticise others for doing so.

I am equally convinced that the right has a bias against anybody who isn't "as Christian" as they are that is far stronger than any anti-Christian sentiment on the left. The evangelicals are certainly making everybody fall all overthemselves to prove how "Christian" they are.

Do any Democratic groups of any size have "no religious" or "secular" pledges similar to what is being asked of the GOP candidates?

A Republican must be a specific type of Christian to win nomination? Or are there factions (evangelical Christians) within the Republican party which will only support a certain type of Christian? I'm pretty sure NOW is not supporting any Democrat who is pro life. I'm pretty sure labor unions won't support a Democrat who favors a right to work environment.

I think I missed your point.

[RandomGuy]

A Republican must be a specific type of Christian to win nomination?

I was under the impression that Republicans didn't like cultists (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/oct/09/mitt-romney-mormon-republican?newsfeed=true), so my answer would be yes.

Not really being snarky either. I am pretty sure the GOP would not nominate a Catholic, either.

It would seem the evangelical protestants, to me, pretty much have a lock on the nominating process that would effectively bar certain types of Christians from the nomination.

If Romney actually get the nomination, I take it all back. I think the evangelicals are going to hold their noses and close ranks though, so I may very well have to eat that particular crow.

[Th'Pusher]

I was under the impression that Republicans didn't like cultists (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/oct/09/mitt-romney-mormon-republican?newsfeed=true), so my answer would be yes.

Not really being snarky either. I am pretty sure the GOP would not nominate a Catholic, either.

It would seem the evangelical protestants, to me, pretty much have a lock on the nominating process that would effectively bar certain types of Christians from the nomination.

If Romney actually get the nomination, I take it all back. I think the evangelicals are going to hold their noses and close ranks though, so I may very well have to eat that particular crow.

Yeah. They will. God knows they're not actually going to nominate that black guy.

[RandomGuy]

Yeah. They will. God knows they're not actually going to nominate that black guy.

:lol

Uncle Ruckus?

[boutons_deux]

The "problem with "Christians" " is that they want to, to small or large degree, the "establishment of Christian religion" as the official religion of govt at all levels, more or less a Christian theocracy, which is exactly what the wisdom of FFs excluded by establishment clause. iow, these types of "Christians" are truly anti-American/Constitutional.

Here's an example of the intimidation/litmus test that "Christians" impose on American society, in this case, the UCA-corrupted American Cancer Society

Is Atheist Money Too Controversial for the American Cancer Society

I'll say this clearly, right up front: The American Cancer Society did not explicitly reject a massive donation offer from a non-theistic organization on the basis of it being a non-theistic organization.

That was not the stated reason given for rejecting a matching offer of $250,000 from the Foundation Beyond Belief and the Todd Stiefel Foundation to sponsor a national team in the upcoming Relay for Life. (An offer that, as a matching offer, was likely to bring in a total of half a million dollars for the American Cancer Society.)

It's just difficult to reach any other conclusion. In the place of clear explanations, there has been an ongoing series of evasions, imprecisions, conflicting answers, moved goalposts, apathy, and even hostility.

Here's the deal.

(ELLIPSIS ALERT!) ...

http://www.alternet.org/belief/152685/is_atheist_money_too_controversial_for_the_america n_cancer_society_?utm_source=feedblitz&utm_medium=FeedBlitzRss&utm_campaign=alternet

:)

[Winehole23]

Uncle Ruckus?You're comparing Cain to Uncle Ruckus?

[Winehole23]

http://thewellversed.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Uncle-Ruckus-Inset.jpg

[boutons_deux]

The "Bradley effect" may be what happens to Cain, among white Repug voters.

iow, poll as being ready to vote for da bruvva so as to hide their racism, but always vote for a whitey.

[Yonivore]

:lol

Uncle Ruckus?
Racist.

[Yonivore]

http://thewellversed.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Uncle-Ruckus-Inset.jpg
Racist.

[Winehole23]

No need to go full blown emo. Have you ever watched Boondocks?

[Yonivore]

No need to go full blown emo. Have you ever watched Boondocks?
Nope.

[Winehole23]

Well, that's where Uncle Ruckus is from.

[Yonivore]

http://thewellversed.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Uncle-Ruckus-Inset.jpg
The subtitle in the image is racist.

It denigrates blacks that share conservative views and implies they're doing the bidding of some white superior when they speak out for conservative ideals and against liberalism.

[ChumpDumper]

The subtitle in the image is racist.

It denigrates blacks that share conservative views and implies they're doing the bidding of some white superior when they speak out for conservative ideals and against liberalism.:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

You're stupid.

[Winehole23]

The subtitle in the image is racist.

It denigrates blacks that share conservative views and implies they're doing the bidding of some white superior when they speak out for conservative ideals and against liberalism.Well, I'm sorry it offended you. I mainly wanted to identify Uncle Ruckus.

[Winehole23]

lol "blacks are brainwashed" calling out others for racism

[Yonivore]

Well, I'm sorry it offended you. I mainly wanted to identify Uncle Ruckus.

http://uppitynegronetwork.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/uncle_ruckus.jpg
First image on Google was without the racist commentary. Seems you did it intentionally. As a matter of fact, your racist image doesn't even show up on the first page on Google.

Is that from your computer?

[Yonivore]

lol "blacks are brainwashed" calling out others for racism
How else do you explain such blind devotion to the party of racism? A consistent 90-95% of blacks vote Democrat.

Why?

[Winehole23]

Is that from your computer?It's from an image search, O doughty and wise antiracist crusader.

[Winehole23]

How else do you explain such blind devotion to the party of racism? A consistent 90-95% of blacks vote Democrat.

Why?Brainwashed. Nothing else accounts for it.

[Yonivore]

Brainwashed. Nothing else accounts for it.
So, you've got nothing?

Could be, they're simply incurious about the history of the party they keep voting into office. After all, when you've got Al Sharpton so confused about who even got the Civil Rights Act of 1964 passed, what are you going to do?

It's an article of faith the Democrat party is the party that champions black people when, in reality, that's never been the case.

[Winehole23]

Ignorant and uneducated too. Thanks for pointing that out.

[Winehole23]

The dark, unwashed masses must be led to knowledge and their own true history by their cultural betters. Education is crucially important.

[Yonivore]

Still nothing, eh Winehole?

[Winehole23]

I'm sorry, did you say something?

[Yonivore]

I'm sorry, did you say something?
Sure, I asked a question.

Why do 90-95% of blacks consistently vote for a party that spent the better part of this nation's first 150 years actively discriminating against them, in sometimes horrible ways?

[ElNono]

Southern Strategy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_strategy)

[Winehole23]

You're doing his homework for him, Nono.:nope

[Winehole23]

jk

[Winehole23]

I wanted to see how long he'd remain oblvious to the history of his own party, of late the party of veiled, implicit racism.

[Winehole23]

Codewords: welfare, illegal immigration, crime solutions, antiterrorism.

[Yonivore]

I wanted to see how long he'd remain oblvious to the history of his own party, of late the party of veiled, implicit racism.
OMG! Wikipedia? A flagged for neutrality Wikipedia article, no less.

[Winehole23]

I posted no link.

[Yonivore]

I wanted to see how long he'd remain oblvious to the history of his own party, of late the party of veiled, implicit racism.
Where's the "veiled, implicit racism?"

[Yonivore]

I posted no link.
No, but I peeked at Nono's because you referenced his post.

[Winehole23]

Where's the "veiled, implicit racism?"Welfare queens, Willie Horton, characterizing fellow citizens as worthless freeloaders, anti-immigrant populism and pandering to it. Nativism.

[ElNono]

OMG! Wikipedia? A flagged for neutrality Wikipedia article, no less.

Michael Steele was probably reading from the wrong link too :rolleyes

[ElNono]

You're doing his homework for him, Nono.:nope

I honestly thought he was that ignorant. I mean, wouldn't be a reach, right?

[Yonivore]

Welfare queens,...
That would be anyone of any race that is in a generational welfare state. There are white welfare queens.


Willie Horton,...
Why was that racist? Horton was a murderer Dukakis furloughed.


...characterizing fellow citizens as worthless freeloaders,...
That's pretty much indiscriminately hurled at all races that are worthless freeloaders, kind of like most of the Flea Baggers.


...anti-immigrant populism and pandering to it. Nativism.
anti-illegal-immigration. I'm good with legal immigration.

[ElNono]

Why stop at racism when you can attempt to justify racism?

[ChuckD]

http://thewellversed.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Uncle-Ruckus-Inset.jpg


The subtitle in the image is racist.

It denigrates blacks that share conservative views and implies they're doing the bidding of some white superior when they speak out for conservative ideals and against liberalism.

If it were just a concept in a vacuum, I might see your point, but since the GOP actually DID that with Michael Steele, it's an event that has actually happened and is open for conjecture and mockery.

[Yonivore]

If it were just a concept in a vacuum, I might see your point, but since the GOP actually DID that with Michael Steele, it's an event that has actually happened and is open for conjecture and mockery.
That's racist.

[ChuckD]

That's racist.

Nope, it's reality. The GOP set Michael Steele out as an attack dog to say the things about the POTUS that their white members would be crucified for saying. They just didn't realize that he would be such a dumbass that they'd need to jettison him 2 years later. If there is any racism in the equation, it was the GOP for using him to that purpose.

[Cry Havoc]

That's racist.

:lmao

When the GOP backers have to pull the race card, wooooooow. There are just no words.

[admiralsnackbar]

:lmao

When the GOP backers have to pull the race card, wooooooow. There are just no words.
No, there are some: teenager-style sophistry.

Conservatives have a victim mentality after decades of having the race card pulled on them -- Yoni is just exhibiting that frustration. The sad irony, of course, is that his repeated censure of "racism" (which he can only seem to grasp in ahistorical and binary --but not ambiguous -- abstractions) just underscores how incapable he is of understanding that racism is messily woven into our culture and history.

Yes, Yoni... There should be no difference between people based on their ethnicity. And yet there is. Pointing it out (or trying to make light of it) doesn't make somebody a racist unless they're working to perpetuate that difference to X people's detriment, or perpetuate false stereotypes.

[boutons_deux]

A Leading Figure In The New Apostolic Reformation

http://media.npr.org/assets/img/2011/09/30/wagners-2007.jpg?t=1317661159&s=51

A new charismatic Christian movement that seeks to take dominion over politics, business and culture in preparation for the end times and Jesus' return is becoming more of a presence in American politics. The leaders are considered apostles and prophets, gifted by God for this role.

Wagner's explanation about a recent video that has been shown on television in which he claims the emperor of Japan had sex with the sun goddess, a power of darkness headed by the kingdom of Satan, and how that resulted in the decline of the Japanese stock market; how demons figure into the belief structure of NAR; the role of prophets and apostles within NAR; what Wagner means when he describes the NAR's mission as taking dominion over business, government, media, arts and entertainment, education, family and religion; how he felt when he found out that Ted Haggard, his World Prayer Center co-founder, had used drugs and had sex with men; spiritual mapping; and the role of Jews and Israel in preparing for the second coming.

"As we talk, in Oklahoma City there is an annual meeting of a professional society called the Apostolic — called the International Society of Deliverance Ministers, which my wife and I founded many years ago. ... This is a society of a large number, a couple hundred, of Christian ministers who are in the ministry of deliverance. Their seven-day-a-week occupation is casting demons out of people. And they have professional expertise in this and they happen to meeting — to be meeting right now. My wife is one of them. She's written a whole book called How to Cast Out Demons. And I don't do that much. Once in a while when I get in a corner, I might. But that's — that's been her ministry. And so I've been very, very close to that for years. We've been married for 60 years."

http://www.npr.org/2011/10/03/140946482/apostolic-leader-weighs-religions-role-in-politics

========

Crazy-assed mofos.

[Yonivore]

Nope, it's reality.
Nope, it's a fantasy.

Michael Steele was successful and charismatic Lt. Gov. in Maryland. He ran for RNC chair and was elected on the 6th ballot.


The GOP set Michael Steele out as an attack dog to say the things about the POTUS that their white members would be crucified for saying.
He wasn't saying anything white members of the Republican Party weren't saying.


They just didn't realize that he would be such a dumbass that they'd need to jettison him 2 years later. If there is any racism in the equation, it was the GOP for using him to that purpose.
Elements of the RNC were caught in some ethical violations. He was responsible for the problems.

You're a racist.

[Winehole23]

No, but I peeked at Nono's because you referenced his post.You deny the Southern Strategy exists?

[101A]

A Leading Figure In The New Apostolic Reformation

http://media.npr.org/assets/img/2011/09/30/wagners-2007.jpg?t=1317661159&s=51


Crazy-assed mofos.

:toast

Not very often, but every once in a while, B. Common ground.

[Yonivore]

...repost

[Yonivore]

You deny the Southern Strategy exists?
Obviously, the perception exists but, yes, I disagree the so-called Southern Strategy played a role in the shift of voting patterns, beyond the extent demagogued by Democrats claiming there was a Southern strategy.

While Democrats may like voting on the basis of race, most Republicans vote on the basis of prosperity and, it's been demonstrated the shift, to the Republican party came more from prosperous Southern whites than it did from disaffected racists -- beginning in the 50's.

Did racists shift to the Republican Party? Probably the rich ones did. But, the Democrat Party was somehow successful - and kudoes to them - to label Republicans as racist even though they, Democrats, were the true party of the racists. If the Southern Strategy had been a concerted effort on the part of the Republicans, and not just some figment of Democrats based on some anecdotal or circumstantial evidence, Robert Byrd would have been a Republican.

[Winehole23]

I honestly thought he was that ignorant. I mean, wouldn't be a reach, right?I think it's safe to say Yoni inhabits his own imagination on this.

[ElNono]

Obviously, the perception exists

http://dont-tread-on.me/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Denial.jpg

[ElNono]

beyond the extent demagogued by Democrats claiming there was a Southern strategy.

Michael Steele being a prime example of Democratic demagogue...

[Yonivore]

I think it's safe to say Yoni inhabits his own imagination on this.
At least it's not my own imagination.

The Myth of ‘the Southern Strategy’ (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/10/magazine/10Section2b.t-4.html)


The two scholars support their claim with an extensive survey of election returns and voter surveys. To give just one example: in the 50s, among Southerners in the low-income tercile, 43 percent voted for Republican Presidential candidates, while in the high-income tercile, 53 percent voted Republican; by the 80s, those figures were 51 percent and 77 percent, respectively. Wealthy Southerners shifted rightward in droves but poorer ones didn’t.
So, not only was the Republican party the party of anti-racism; it was also the prosperity party.

[Yonivore]

I'm honored to stand in company with the Clairemont Institute.

The Myth of the Racist Republicans (http://www.claremont.org/publications/crb/id.928/article_detail.asp)


A myth about conservatism is circulating in academia and journalism and has spread to the 2004 presidential campaign. It goes something like this: the Republican Party assembled a national majority by winning over Southern white voters; Southern white voters are racist; therefore, the GOP is racist. Sometimes the conclusion is softened, and Republicans are convicted merely of base opportunism: the GOP is the party that became willing to pander to racists. Either way, today's Republican Party—and by extension the conservative movement at its heart—supposedly has revealed something terrible about itself.
A good read, I recommend it.

[Th'Pusher]

At least it's not my own imagination.

The Myth of ‘the Southern Strategy’ (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/10/magazine/10Section2b.t-4.html)


So, not only was the Republican party the party of anti-racism; it was also the prosperity party.

How are blacks brainwashed if they're just voting for their economic interests?

[boutons_deux]

Top Ministry Over Rick Perry’s New Apostolic Allies Wants My Website “Silenced”

“We need to pray that all false accusations and the voice of the accuser of the brethren be silenced in the name of Jesus!” – Spokesperson for Global Havest/Global Spheres, Inc. ministries

Leading up to the 2008 election, prominent NAR apostles prayed with and blessed Sarah Palin, and they overwhelmingly dominated the August 6th, 2011 The Response prayer event that served as the de facto launch for Texas Governor Rick Perry’s 2012 election presidential bid.

It’s no secret that Talk To Action, which I co-founded in early 2006 together with Frederick Clarkson, has since September 2008 featured what has been probably the most extensive in-depth coverage of, and research on, the New Apostolic Reformation among secular media. So it is not altogether surprising that a spokesperson for the personal ministries of the man who named the New Apostolic Reformation and, more than any other leader, has helped shape and organize the evolving NAR, C. Peter Wagner, has called upon believers to pray that Talk To Action be “silenced.”

But the edict is very notable in light of concerted efforts, by Peter Wagner’s movement, to brand itself as moderate or even quasi-progressive, and it sharply contrasts with Wagner’s statement to NPR’s Terry Gross, for a Fresh Air interview published October 3rd, 2011, that his movement respects pluralism. Asking believers to pray to God that one’s critics be “silenced” is not an expression of respect for pluralism.

http://blogs.alternet.org/speakeasy/2011/10/12/top-ministry-over-rick-perrys-new-apostolic-allies-wants-my-website-silenced/?utm_source=feedblitz&utm_medium=FeedBlitzRss&utm_campaign=alternet

[Cry Havoc]

I'm honored to stand in company with the Clairemont Institute.

The Myth of the Racist Republicans (http://www.claremont.org/publications/crb/id.928/article_detail.asp)


A good read, I recommend it.

And lookee here, the very first page of the wikipedia article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claremont_Institute

"The Claremont Institute is a conservative think tank based in Claremont, California."

Yep. No bias there. :lmao

[Yonivore]

And lookee here, the very first page of the wikipedia article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claremont_Institute

"The Claremont Institute is a conservative think tank based in Claremont, California."

Yep. No bias there. :lmao
That's a refutation of the article?

[ElNono]

That's a refutation of the article?

Might as well just ask everybody to take your word for it.

[ElNono]

I wonder if yoni read what he linked:

Now to be sure, the GOP had a Southern strategy. Willing to work with, rather than against, the grain of Southern opinion, local Republicans ran some segregationist candidates in the 1960s. And from the 1950s on, virtually all national and local GOP candidates tried to craft policies and messages that could compete for the votes of some pretty unsavory characters. This record is incontestable.

[ElNono]

dp

[ChuckD]

Obviously, the perception exists but, yes, I disagree the so-called Southern Strategy played a role in the shift of voting patterns, beyond the extent demagogued by Democrats claiming there was a Southern strategy.

While Democrats may like voting on the basis of race, most Republicans vote on the basis of prosperity and, it's been demonstrated the shift, to the Republican party came more from prosperous Southern whites than it did from disaffected racists -- beginning in the 50's.

Did racists shift to the Republican Party? Probably the rich ones did. But, the Democrat Party was somehow successful - and kudoes to them - to label Republicans as racist even though they, Democrats, were the true party of the racists. If the Southern Strategy had been a concerted effort on the part of the Republicans, and not just some figment of Democrats based on some anecdotal or circumstantial evidence, Robert Byrd would have been a Republican.

Ken Mehlman apparently apologizes for an imaginary strategy... (http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2005-07-14-GOP-racial-politics_x.htm)

[ChuckD]

That's a refutation of the article?

You bashed a NEUTRAL rated Wikipedia article, fuckwit. Apparently, dislike of a source IS a refutation, at least to you.

[ElNono]

So.... who are the apostles?

[Yonivore]

You bashed a NEUTRAL rated Wikipedia article, fuckwit. Apparently, dislike of a source IS a refutation, at least to you.
It wasn't rated "neutral" it was flagged for not being "neutral." And, The Clairmont Institute isn't Wikipedia. They're also not the only place that's arrived at that same conclusion about the "Southern Strategy" canard.

[ElNono]

lol GOP members apologizing for the Southern Strategy and yoni apologizing for them

[Cry Havoc]

It wasn't rated "neutral" it was flagged for not being "neutral." And, The Clairmont Institute isn't Wikipedia. They're also not the only place that's arrived at that same conclusion about the "Southern Strategy" canard.

:lmao

Yeah, the Pink Hat society says the same thing! So it must be true! After all, conservative think tanks have no reason to paint their party in the best possible light!

:lmao

How do you go through life being so intellectually dishonest?

[Yonivore]

:lmao

Yeah, the Pink Hat society says the same thing! So it must be true! After all, conservative think tanks have no reason to paint their party in the best possible light!

:lmao

How do you go through life being so intellectually dishonest?
In the New York Times (I know, the great bastion of Conservativism) article I posted, there two academics that arrived at the same conclusion as the Clairmont Institute.


Richard Johnston of the University of Pennsylvania and Byron Shafer of the University of Wisconsin argue that the shift in the South from Democratic to Republican was overwhelmingly a question not of race but of economic growth.
And, they and the Clairmont Institute aren't the only people putting the lie to the whole "Southern Strategy" nonsense.

[ChuckD]

It wasn't rated "neutral" it was flagged for not being "neutral." And, The Clairmont Institute isn't Wikipedia. They're also not the only place that's arrived at that same conclusion about the "Southern Strategy" canard.

Except that Ken Mehlman didn't think it was a canard. Nice selective reply. Glossed right over that post with the link to the apology by the RNC chairman for the race baiting Southern Stragegy that he admits the GOP uses.

[Yonivore]

Except that Ken Mehlman didn't think it was a canard. Nice selective reply. Glossed right over that post with the link to the apology by the RNC chairman for the race baiting Southern Stragegy that he admits the GOP uses.
Oh well, Ken Mehlman is welcome to be wrong. And Condaleezza Rice apologized for a lie that didn't happen.

Hell, President Obama wanted to apologize to Japan for us ending a war they started.

Your point? Ken Mehlman is wrong.

[ElNono]

Michael Steele is wrong too. Actually, when it comes to yoni, everybody else is wrong... :rolleyes

[admiralsnackbar]

Michael Steele is wrong too. Actually, when it comes to yoni, everybody else is wrong... :rolleyes

And racist.