View Full Version : Tim Duncan ranked #19 in ESPN NBA POLL
Killakobe81
10-13-2011, 04:28 PM
Thoughts?
Mine: Not sure he is better than ZBO (20), Pierce (21) Aldridge, Bosh, KG or Horford (22-25) at this stage of his career.
Some of the tweets in response: (courtesy of ESPN)
1. "feels like Tim Duncan at 19 is a lifetime achievement award ..."
2. "First an All-Star Game, now top 20 in NBArank? Tim Duncan keeps getting these lifetime achievement awards."
3. "I will credit Tim Duncan for being the anti-Ewing at the end of his career. He has sacrificed his numbers and touches for the team."
4. "Tim Duncan at 19 at age 35 and still the most fundamental big man in the game."
I think quotes 2 and 4 are BOTH correct, what say you?
Ashy Larry
10-13-2011, 04:31 PM
at this stage, 20 and 12 from a 30 year old ZBO > 13 and 9 from a 35 year old Duncan .....
ElNono
10-13-2011, 04:33 PM
Right now, ZBo is better and Horford is better than both, IMO. The thing that makes you doubt about ZBo is that his attention span can be inconsistent. I think people have a hard time voting without looking career-wise. There's also the fact that TD plays next to 5'5 Blair or redhead Bonner...
Too high probably.
Wont be the most ridiculous ranking though, seeing Kobe in the Top 3 or Top 5 will be astronomically worse.
Mel_13
10-13-2011, 04:34 PM
Thoughts?
Mine: Not sure he is better than ZBO (20), Pierce (21) Aldridge, Bosh, KG or Horford (22-25) at this stage of his career.
Some of the tweets in response: (courtesy of ESPN)
1. "feels like Tim Duncan at 19 is a lifetime achievement award ..."
2. "First an All-Star Game, now top 20 in NBArank? Tim Duncan keeps getting these lifetime achievement awards."
3. "I will credit Tim Duncan for being the anti-Ewing at the end of his career. He has sacrificed his numbers and touches for the team."
4. "Tim Duncan at 19 at age 35 and still the most fundamental big man in the game."
I think quotes 2 and 4 are BOTH correct, what say you?
Consider the source; 90 ESPN basketball "experts".
Look at how well their 45 baseball experts did:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/preview/2011/news/story?page=11expertpicks
#41 Shoot Em Up
10-13-2011, 04:35 PM
:lmao ESPN is a disgrace in general... but this seals the deal
jim duncan ??? 19!!!!!!! Duncan+ Spurs= irrelevent faggots
TimmehC
10-13-2011, 04:37 PM
Manu should be higher, Timmy lower. Maybe 2 years ago, Timmy would have been there, but not anymore.
Killakobe81
10-13-2011, 04:38 PM
Too high probably.
Wont be the most ridiculous ranking though, seeing Kobe in the Top 3 or Top 5 will be astronomically worse.
LOL had to spin to this to Kobe? Ill bite. Top 5 still. Top 3 is probably a stretch but a case can be made. I won't make it. Luva, Kool and Deuce will put in work I'll just sit back and chuckle as yall sling shit back and forth.
JayTheClown
10-13-2011, 04:38 PM
Consider the source; 90 ESPN basketball "experts".
Look at how well their 45 baseball experts did:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/preview/2011/news/story?page=11expertpicks
LOL, all but like 2 or 3 picking the Redsox to win the west. :lol
baseline bum
10-13-2011, 04:39 PM
I'd still take Duncan over Garnett even though KG can play a few more minutes, since Duncan is still a much better shot blocker. Randolph, Aldridge, Horford, and Bosh are obviously better than a 35 year-old Duncan though.
Trill Clinton
10-13-2011, 04:39 PM
Too high.
Killakobe81
10-13-2011, 04:42 PM
I'd still take Duncan over Garnett even though KG can play a few more minutes, since Duncan is still a much better shot blocker. Randolph, Aldridge, Horford, and Bosh are obviously better than a 35 year-old Duncan though.
I'll admit the KG one is tough. duncan still a better interior anchor but KG can still defend the pnr much better, better than almost every big TBH. IF i need a paint defender id still take Tim, but KG is the better option to "hedge" or "show" on the pick and BOTH are essential in today's game.
baseline bum
10-13-2011, 04:51 PM
LOL had to spin to this to Kobe? Ill bite. Top 5 still. Top 3 is probably a stretch but a case can be made. I won't make it. Luva, Kool and Deuce will put in work I'll just sit back and chuckle as yall sling shit back and forth.
Sorry man, no way he's top 5; no way he's better than any of these guys.
James
Howard
Wade
Rose
Nowitzki
Durant
LOL had to spin to this to Kobe? Ill bite. Top 5 still. Top 3 is probably a stretch but a case can be made. I won't make it. Luva, Kool and Deuce will put in work I'll just sit back and chuckle as yall sling shit back and forth.
Bron
Wade
Dwight
Dirk
Rose
All those players should be clearly ranked ahead of a high mileage 34-yr old Kobe.
baseline bum
10-13-2011, 04:52 PM
I'll admit the KG one is tough. duncan still a better interior anchor but KG can still defend the pnr much better, better than almost every big TBH. IF i need a paint defender id still take Tim, but KG is the better option to "hedge" or "show" on the pick and BOTH are essential in today's game.
Yeah, you're right. I'd definitely pick Duncan for the Spurs when Bonner, Blair, and Splitter are the other guys guarding the paint though. :lol
Ashy Larry
10-13-2011, 04:56 PM
Marc Stein, ESPN.com: Just right. 'Cause this guy has been such a phenomenal leader and winner in all the years I've been lucky enough to chronicle that, I simply can't bring myself to boot him out of the top 20 yet. I know what the stats say. I've seen him dragging around on one good leg. But I'll let somebody else tell you TD's not young enough to be up here any more. Sue me.
Even Stein knows Duncan's not top 20 ...... swansong award. Tim should be around the 30-40 range.
Marc Stein, ESPN.com: Just right. 'Cause this guy has been such a phenomenal leader and winner in all the years I've been lucky enough to chronicle that, I simply can't bring myself to boot him out of the top 20 yet. I know what the stats say. I've seen him dragging around on one good leg. But I'll let somebody else tell you TD's not young enough to be up here any more. Sue me.
Even Stein knows Duncan's not top 20 ...... swansong award. Tim should be around the 30-40 range.
Every spurfan in this thread has acknowledged it probably is too high.
Will lakerfan ever acknowledge Kobe is no longer Top 5 ?
Stalin
10-13-2011, 04:58 PM
no worse than putting kobe on the all defensive team last year, tbh
no worse than putting kobe on the all defensive team the past 5-8 yrs, tbh
fify
#41 Shoot Em Up
10-13-2011, 05:03 PM
lol faggots spuds fans
Stalin
10-13-2011, 05:05 PM
^ shouldn't you be checking out the latest naruto episode, scrah?
If Tim is good enough over his career to have that effect on people, just shut up and accept it or make your own lists.
Let's see:
Laker Fan:
1. Kobe
2. Kobe
3. Kobe
4. Kobe
5. Kobe
6. Every other Laker (because Kobe would never fall out of the top 5)
#41 Shoot Em Up
10-13-2011, 05:11 PM
You niggas done lost yall damn mind. Jim is not even top 50. Get over this stiff already. Hes the 3rd best player on his own team, factor in he wouldnt be the second best player on any team in the entire league. Ranking him in the top 60 would be just as stupid as putting him in the top 20.
Like a boss
Jodelo
10-13-2011, 05:17 PM
I got...
Kobe
Rose
Dirk
CP3
Howard
:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao
Stalin
10-13-2011, 05:20 PM
0-4 ecstasy
Koolaid_Man
10-13-2011, 05:26 PM
You niggas done lost yall damn mind. Jim is not even top 50. Get over this stiff already. Hes the 3rd best player on his own team, factor in he wouldnt be the second best player on any team in the entire league. Ranking him in the top 60 would be just as stupid as putting him in the top 20.
I told you Luva... Killa and Ashy be smoking that shit...:lol
Dem niggas a step away from crack...:lol
Deuce Bigalow
10-13-2011, 05:28 PM
he got ranked higher than Zbo, Aldridge, and Bosh
lol
Deuce Bigalow
10-13-2011, 05:29 PM
Too high probably.
Wont be the most ridiculous ranking though, seeing Kobe in the Top 3 or Top 5 will be astronomically worse.
no it wouldnt
Ashy Larry
10-13-2011, 05:31 PM
Every spurfan in this thread has acknowledged it probably is too high.
Will lakerfan ever acknowledge Kobe is no longer Top 5 ?
honestly, Kobe is 6-10. You heard it here. Love his game but the mileage has caught up to him and that's seen on the defensive end when scrub two guards constantly get wide open looks.
Wade surpassed him as the best SG in the league but 6-10 isn't bad for a 33 year old dude with 200K miles on him.
DeadlyDynasty
10-13-2011, 05:31 PM
Definitely a Lifetime Achievement Award. It was sad watching Tim get abused by Z-Bo and Gasol last year...kinda reminded me of Ali vs. Holmes.
I'm curious what BR's thoughts are on these rankings.
Koolaid_Man
10-13-2011, 05:31 PM
And how come Ashy don't have his colors yet...imma have to talk to Kori bout that...
Ashy Larry
10-13-2011, 05:42 PM
no worse than putting kobe on the all defensive team last year, tbh
totally agree ..... reputation award. Wade was better across the board stat-wise and on the ball. I remember more of Bryant half-assing through screen and floating than actual being a pit bull defender.
Ashy Larry
10-13-2011, 05:43 PM
And how come Ashy don't have his colors yet...imma have to talk to Kori bout that...
those don't matter to me ....... it's quite alright.
totally agree ..... reputation award. Wade was better across the board stat-wise and on the ball. I remember more of Bryant half-assing through screen and floating than actual being a pit bull defender.
Oh shit, you just lost your recommendation from Koon Maid.
Koolaid_Man
10-13-2011, 05:48 PM
totally agree ..... reputation award. Wade was better across the board stat-wise and on the ball. I remember more of Bryant half-assing through screen and floating than actual being a pit bull defender.
No one gives a shit my nigga got 5 rings done put in way more work than Lebron and Wade combined. Now its all about picking and choosing spots / games...at least Phil didn't hide him on the bench...like the Spurs did for Jim.
No one gives a shit my nigga got 5 rings done put in way more work than Lebron and Wade combined. Now its all about picking and choosing spots / games...at least Phil didn't hide him on the bench...like the Spurs did for Jim.
No, his coach just quit on him, twice.
Koolaid_Man
10-13-2011, 05:52 PM
And Wade is Kobe-lite...even today..not many GMs will pick Wade over Kobe...I've heard of a Kobe Night where that nigga gets 2 mill for a game...I haven't hard of a Wade Night...lol
Ashy Larry
10-13-2011, 05:52 PM
Oh shit, you just lost your recommendation from Koon Maid.
well, it's the truth. Defensively, Kobe is a shell of himself. Stevie Wonder can see that shit and there was nothing he really did last year to garner an all-defensive team nod - let alone first team?
Wade 1.1 blocks per game
Bryant 0.1 blocks per game
Wade 1.5 Steals per game
Bryant 1.2 steals per game
and clearly age caught up with him with all his roaming and floating and leaving three point shooters wide open.
01-09 definitely deserved. Dude was a beast on the defensive end.
Ashy Larry
10-13-2011, 05:54 PM
No one gives a shit my nigga got 5 rings done put in way more work than Lebron and Wade combined. Now its all about picking and choosing spots / games...at least Phil didn't hide him on the bench...like the Spurs did for Jim.
totally agree. He can't do it for 48 minutes like he usta. But picking spots doesn't garner and shouldn't garner you an all-defensive nod, especially on the first team.
01-09 definitely deserved. Dude was a beast on the defensive end.
:lol
Come on bro, you seem objective enough since youre actually admitting he is no longer Top 5...but Kobe hasnt deserved all-defensive the last 5 years, atleast possibly even more. Theyve all been based on reputation. You would see him get up for guys like Tmac, Bron, and Wade where he would show flashes of the defensive dominance he displayed when he was younger but for the most part he has been lazy on defense. Hes had guys like Ariza, Artest, Fox, and even George guard the opposing teams best perimeter player especially in the regular season.
Pedobear1
10-13-2011, 06:01 PM
laker fan knows all about lifetime achievement awards...having seen Kobe get the MVP in '08, and all those defensive team selections
MR.SILVER&BLack
10-13-2011, 06:07 PM
no it wouldnt
why you no alert us this time?
Stalin
10-13-2011, 06:11 PM
why you no alert us this time?
:lol
Koolaid_Man
10-13-2011, 06:18 PM
totally agree. He can't do it for 48 minutes like he usta. But picking spots doesn't garner and shouldn't garner you an all-defensive nod, especially on the first team.
It's more of a testament to how good he is and how totally worthless others in the league are when it comes to defense...:lol. Sour fan oops Spur fan want their cake and eat it too. They robbed him of MVPs that he deserved dam near every year now they want to strip him of his Defensive awards as well...
5 to 4 has really opened up some ass holes...:lol
And Wade is Kobe-lite...even today..not many GMs will pick Wade over Kobe...I've heard of a Kobe Night where that nigga gets 2 mill for a game...I haven't hard of a Wade Night...lol
Wade Night happened during the Finals. Neither you nor Kobe were there.
It's more of a testament to how good he is and how totally worthless others in the league are when it comes to defense...:lol. Sour fan oops Spur fan want their cake and eat it too. They robbed him of MVPs that he deserved dam near every year now they want to strip him of his Defensive awards as well...
5 to 4 has really opened up some ass holes...:lol
What's interesting here (in a watching paint dry sort of way) is how all of the Laker trolls are morphing into Culburn.
Koolaid_Man
10-13-2011, 06:24 PM
What's interesting here (in a watching paint dry sort of way) is how all of the Laker trolls are morphing into Culburn.
U try so hard to be witty but sometimes you don't know when you're bad.:lol
U try so hard to be witty but sometimes you don't know when you're bad.:lol
Just checking assholes, you were next in line. Let us proceed.
ElNono
10-13-2011, 06:28 PM
I got...
Naruto
Paki
Stinky
Welcher
Kobe
fify
Koolaid_Man
10-13-2011, 06:33 PM
Just checking assholes, you were next in line. Let us proceed.
I don't mind you checking my ass at all...just use your tongue that's my only requirement...
Let me pull down my britches...hook me up D.....:lol
I don't mind you checking my ass at all...just use your tongue that's my only requirement...
Let me pull down my britches...hook me up D.....:lol
Grow up.
Ashy Larry
10-13-2011, 06:42 PM
It's more of a testament to how good he is and how totally worthless others in the league are when it comes to defense...:lol. Sour fan oops Spur fan want their cake and eat it too. They robbed him of MVPs that he deserved dam near every year now they want to strip him of his Defensive awards as well...
5 to 4 has really opened up some ass holes...:lol
From a Lakers' fan perspective, what year should he have been given another MVP award????
BlackSwordsMan
10-13-2011, 06:49 PM
Only #19 I always knew BSPN hated the spurs but #19? come on. Let me guess Lebron 1-17 and Paul Pierce was 18?
If you look at how many team mates were butted against each other in the rankings, you can tell much of it was just "oh yeah" type stuff.
From a Lakers' fan perspective, what year should he have been given another MVP award????
This year for Most Violently Penetrated.
Sorry I had to.
/Lefty
Koolaid_Man
10-13-2011, 07:22 PM
From a Lakers' fan perspective, what year should he have been given another MVP award????
every year from 2002-2010...face it the MVP critieria / goal posts are often moved by the media to avoid giving it to Kobe...here's a novel idea...why don't we give it to not only the best player voted by GM's and his Peers but also by impact on the league itself...Sure he didn't have the best numbers in every category nor did he ring every year during that span but the fact is he was regarded by his peers and the global basketball community as basketball god 101...He held the league up...if not for Kobe post MJ the league would have failed....just like Magic and Bird save it in the 80s and MJ saved it in the 90's Shaq and Kobe saved it in the 2000's and Kobe continued to carry it once Shaq fell off...why do you think the Chinese love him more than Yao, why do you think people will pay him 2 mill for one game...he's the Don of the league and has been for a long time. All that other Media spin and BS you read about Duncan, Nash, Dirk, Lebron is just that..Bull shit... them niggas couldn't hold up the league like Kobe did...they cant draw crowds like Kobe...Lebron tried but failed miserably...to me that's the sign of a MVP...impact on the league...if not for Kobe post MJ I wouldn't even watch that shit...
real talk tbh :lol
MVP literally means most valuable to the league...no other player can make such a claim from a domestic or global standpoint during Kobe's era. Now Deal with that shit Mr. Media Buy In guy...:lol
Koolaid_Man
10-13-2011, 07:34 PM
Grow up.
Lick up and I'll grow for ya....:lol you'll see
HarlemHeat37
10-13-2011, 08:07 PM
:lol Duncan has no argument, in regards to being a top 20 player, at this point of his career..
Horford(overrated at this point IMO, but still), Nowitzki, Griffin, Gasol, Randolph, Bosh, Howard, Stoudemire, and Aldridge are all better big men, at this point..
Kobe making the top 5 would be a travesty, as well, although not as outrageous as his defensive accolade, last season..
TDMVPDPOY
10-13-2011, 08:08 PM
duncan plays like a scrub when theres not another big playin alongside him....
Giuseppe
10-13-2011, 08:08 PM
I smell shit.
BRHornet45
10-13-2011, 11:28 PM
absolutely disgraceful. sons this is almost as pathetic as ABC rigging the voting in order to keep that freak show Chaz Bono aka Tony Romo on that dancing show.
REAL TALK: Tim Duncan isn't even a top 75 player in the NBA anymore. I would rank him somewhere between 90-100.
Killakobe81
10-14-2011, 12:23 AM
totally agree. He can't do it for 48 minutes like he usta. But picking spots doesn't garner and shouldn't garner you an all-defensive nod, especially on the first team.
Agreed. and lol Kool ...Im the one who created the thread. Said he was too high. But 60 Luva? he still probably top 30-35. Top 20 is crazy ...
Killakobe81
10-14-2011, 12:24 AM
:lol Duncan has no argument, in regards to being a top 20 player, at this point of his career..
Horford(overrated at this point IMO, but still), Nowitzki, Griffin, Gasol, Randolph, Bosh, Howard, Stoudemire, and Aldridge are all better big men, at this point..
Kobe making the top 5 would be a travesty, as well, although not as outrageous as his defensive accolade, last season..
Travesty? You come out of hibernation for hyperbole? :lol
Killakobe81
10-14-2011, 12:27 AM
Just checking assholes, you were next in line. Let us proceed.
Even Spur trolls are stealing from Cully ...
He is a trend setter. He sets trends.
Nathan89
10-14-2011, 12:30 AM
I would still take Duncan over Bosh. On the Spurs or the Heat.
Deuce Bigalow
10-14-2011, 01:03 AM
I would still take Duncan over Bosh. On the Spurs or the Heat.
:lol
moron
Nathan89
10-14-2011, 01:23 AM
:lol
moron
:lmao Deuce calling someone a moron
Duncan+Haslem> Bosh+J.Anthony
Defense- Duncan>>> Bosh
Rebounding-Duncan>>Bosh
Creating for Teammates-Duncan>>Bosh
Leadership-Duncan>>>>>>>>>>>>>Bosh(AND THE HEAT NEED A LEADER)
Emotional Stability-Duncan>>>>>>>>>>>Bosh
:lmao Bosh is better than Duncan
Ashy Larry
10-14-2011, 11:30 AM
every year from 2002-2010...face it the MVP critieria / goal posts are often moved by the media to avoid giving it to Kobe...here's a novel idea...why don't we give it to not only the best player voted by GM's and his Peers but also by impact on the league itself...Sure he didn't have the best numbers in every category nor did he ring every year during that span but the fact is he was regarded by his peers and the global basketball community as basketball god 101...He held the league up...if not for Kobe post MJ the league would have failed....just like Magic and Bird save it in the 80s and MJ saved it in the 90's Shaq and Kobe saved it in the 2000's and Kobe continued to carry it once Shaq fell off...why do you think the Chinese love him more than Yao, why do you think people will pay him 2 mill for one game...he's the Don of the league and has been for a long time. All that other Media spin and BS you read about Duncan, Nash, Dirk, Lebron is just that..Bull shit... them niggas couldn't hold up the league like Kobe did...they cant draw crowds like Kobe...Lebron tried but failed miserably...to me that's the sign of a MVP...impact on the league...if not for Kobe post MJ I wouldn't even watch that shit...
real talk tbh :lol
MVP literally means most valuable to the league...no other player can make such a claim from a domestic or global standpoint during Kobe's era. Now Deal with that shit Mr. Media Buy In guy...:lol
I know damn well you dont believe that shit. Sure, he was the best player in the league during many of those years, but who in their right mind is gonna give the MVP award to a player in 2005 when his team doesn't even make the playoffs? The award has been very consistent recently. Best player usually on the best team; or best player on a team that's won their division with a high playoff seeding.
Most Laker fans continue to say he should have more MVP awards but still don't have the "facts" to back up that claim. Some will say he had an 81 point game. So one game garners an MVP trophy? :lol
Based on recent criteria, you can't give the trophy to a guy on a team that misses the playoffs (2005), and is seeded seventh when they make the playoffs, finishing 9 and 19 games behind the division leader. (2006, 2007).
debatable years
2001 - he avg'd 28.5 points but what Iverson (31.1 ppg) did that year was a no-brainer. Shaquille avg'd 28.7 didn't help Bean's cause.
2002 - 25/5.5/5.5 from Bryant against 25/nearly 13 rebounds/2.5 blocks from Duncan. What probably got the nod for Tim? Shaquille avg'd 27/11. C Webb should have gotten more run.
2003 - 30/6/7 from Bryant. One of his best years. Lakers were a five seed and could have easily been a six seed. They finished nine games behind the first place Kings. Can't give him the award there when the squad is nine game out in the Pacific Division and 10 out in the Western Conference.
2004 - 24/5/5 on an underachieving squad. He missed 17 games that year and KG had a tremendous year leading the T-Wolves to the best record in the West: 24/14/5/2
2009 - LeBron had better numbers across the board and his team had the best record.
2010 - see 2009
Based on that "he's the best player in the league" argument, he could have sat out one year and still gotten the award.
Koolaid_Man
10-14-2011, 12:02 PM
I know damn well you dont believe that shit. Sure, he was the best player in the league during many of those years, but who in their right mind is gonna give the MVP award to a player in 2005 when his team doesn't even make the playoffs? The award has been very consistent recently. Best player usually on the best team; or best player on a team that's won their division with a high playoff seeding.
Most Laker fans continue to say he should have more MVP awards but still don't have the "facts" to back up that claim. Some will say he had an 81 point game. So one game garners an MVP trophy? :lol
Based on recent criteria, you can't give the trophy to a guy on a team that misses the playoffs (2005), and is seeded seventh when they make the playoffs, finishing 9 and 19 games behind the division leader. (2006, 2007).
debatable years
2001 - he avg'd 28.5 points but what Iverson (31.1 ppg) did that year was a no-brainer. Shaquille avg'd 28.7 didn't help Bean's cause.
2002 - 25/5.5/5.5 from Bryant against 25/nearly 13 rebounds/2.5 blocks from Duncan. What probably got the nod for Tim? Shaquille avg'd 27/11. C Webb should have gotten more run.
2003 - 30/6/7 from Bryant. One of his best years. Lakers were a five seed and could have easily been a six seed. They finished nine games behind the first place Kings. Can't give him the award there when the squad is nine game out in the Pacific Division and 10 out in the Western Conference.
2004 - 24/5/5 on an underachieving squad. He missed 17 games that year and KG had a tremendous year leading the T-Wolves to the best record in the West: 24/14/5/2
2009 - LeBron had better numbers across the board and his team had the best record.
2010 - see 2009
Based on that "he's the best player in the league" argument, he could have sat out one year and still gotten the award.
heard all that bullshit before...gotta be on the best team, gotta have the best record, gotta make your teammates better, your team gotta make the playoffs...if he's the muthafucking best player then he's the best player...that's it...
Like I said the goal posts are moved if you're part of the media and voting for Kobe...:lol...Larry Bird was so disgusted at the Kobe treatment that he threatened to give all his back....:lol
you've posted nothing new..the fact that you start out by saying he was the best but but but...is all I need to hear....You've said nothing to dispute my claims that Kobe held the NBA up post MJ...He's been consistently the best most exciting most driven and the NBA's top draw and money maker and yet you quibble about a tenth of points to prove your shotty case. Good or bad if it wasn't for him the NBA wouldn't have the global acclaim that it enjoys today...
As long as Kobe's peers and GM's around the league agree with me..and I've posted enough proof that they do...I feel vindicated...you can spout that goal post moving bullshit the media fabricated years ago all you want...I actually wish my nigga hadn't won it in 2008 because 2008 was nothing but a token...give 2008 to Chris Paul - I'm sure you can make a case for Paul anyway Ashy...in fact Kobe should have none...it's a Media award and it's unfortunate that the coaches and players can't vote otherwise Kobe would have won it every year as I've stated and I don't think there's no disputing that.
You'd lose money if you bet he wouldn't have won it had he been judged by GM's, coaches, and his peers from 2002-2010...real players know what's up...
that's it and that's all...:toast
hater
10-14-2011, 12:10 PM
Kobe is not even near top 5 :lmao
that's the real travesty
hater
10-14-2011, 12:11 PM
TD is somewhere between 30-35 currently
Killakobe81
10-14-2011, 12:59 PM
I know damn well you dont believe that shit. Sure, he was the best player in the league during many of those years, but who in their right mind is gonna give the MVP award to a player in 2005 when his team doesn't even make the playoffs? The award has been very consistent recently. Best player usually on the best team; or best player on a team that's won their division with a high playoff seeding.
Most Laker fans continue to say he should have more MVP awards but still don't have the "facts" to back up that claim. Some will say he had an 81 point game. So one game garners an MVP trophy? :lol
Based on recent criteria, you can't give the trophy to a guy on a team that misses the playoffs (2005), and is seeded seventh when they make the playoffs, finishing 9 and 19 games behind the division leader. (2006, 2007).
debatable years
2001 - he avg'd 28.5 points but what Iverson (31.1 ppg) did that year was a no-brainer. Shaquille avg'd 28.7 didn't help Bean's cause.
2002 - 25/5.5/5.5 from Bryant against 25/nearly 13 rebounds/2.5 blocks from Duncan. What probably got the nod for Tim? Shaquille avg'd 27/11. C Webb should have gotten more run.
2003 - 30/6/7 from Bryant. One of his best years. Lakers were a five seed and could have easily been a six seed. They finished nine games behind the first place Kings. Can't give him the award there when the squad is nine game out in the Pacific Division and 10 out in the Western Conference.
2004 - 24/5/5 on an underachieving squad. He missed 17 games that year and KG had a tremendous year leading the T-Wolves to the best record in the West: 24/14/5/2
2009 - LeBron had better numbers across the board and his team had the best record.
2010 - see 2009
Based on that "he's the best player in the league" argument, he could have sat out one year and still gotten the award.
You make some good points I think the one he got plus one of Nash's should of went to kobe Lebron should of had the other. I dont DISAGREE with your fact ... Ashy.
But there is nothing that says you have to choose a top player off top 2 or 3 team. that is just what the award has evolved to.
Once they stopped giving it to MJ in the late 90's ... the award was full of shit. Not that Malone wasnt deserving or Nash but the best player should win it, but most times that does NOT happen.
Killakobe81
10-14-2011, 01:53 PM
Nash#14
Westbrook#15
What do you guys think?
Killakobe81
10-14-2011, 01:54 PM
Me, I say a little high for both at this stage of their careers. But it's not a travesty or anything ...
Killakobe81
10-14-2011, 02:09 PM
Amare is at #13
Ashy Larry
10-14-2011, 05:30 PM
heard all that bullshit before...gotta be on the best team, gotta have the best record, gotta make your teammates better, your team gotta make the playoffs...if he's the muthafucking best player then he's the best player...that's it...
Like I said the goal posts are moved if you're part of the media and voting for Kobe...:lol...Larry Bird was so disgusted at the Kobe treatment that he threatened to give all his back....:lol
you've posted nothing new..the fact that you start out by saying he was the best but but but...is all I need to hear....You've said nothing to dispute my claims that Kobe held the NBA up post MJ...He's been consistently the best most exciting most driven and the NBA's top draw and money maker and yet you quibble about a tenth of points to prove your shotty case. Good or bad if it wasn't for him the NBA wouldn't have the global acclaim that it enjoys today...
As long as Kobe's peers and GM's around the league agree with me..and I've posted enough proof that they do...I feel vindicated...you can spout that goal post moving bullshit the media fabricated years ago all you want...I actually wish my nigga hadn't won it in 2008 because 2008 was nothing but a token...give 2008 to Chris Paul - I'm sure you can make a case for Paul anyway Ashy...in fact Kobe should have none...it's a Media award and it's unfortunate that the coaches and players can't vote otherwise Kobe would have won it every year as I've stated and I don't think there's no disputing that.
You'd lose money if you bet he wouldn't have won it had he been judged by GM's, coaches, and his peers from 2002-2010...real players know what's up...
that's it and that's all...:toast
so you honestly believe that the best player in the league who didn't lead his team to the playoffs in 2005 should have received the MVP trophy ?????...... :lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao
That's pass crack abuse. You sniffin' Ajax and boozing on Pine-Sol......
And in 2008, he definitely "deserved" it ..... C's had the best record but Pierce, Allen and KG shared the wealth. No true dominant numbers. The finals for MVP was between Paul and Bryant and whomever was the number seed in the West, which really came down to that final showdown between the two teams at Staples, should have been MVP ......
Pelicans78
10-14-2011, 05:41 PM
You make some good points I think the one he got plus one of Nash's should of went to kobe Lebron should of had the other. I dont DISAGREE with your fact ... Ashy.
But there is nothing that says you have to choose a top player off top 2 or 3 team. that is just what the award has evolved to.
Once they stopped giving it to MJ in the late 90's ... the award was full of shit. Not that Malone wasnt deserving or Nash but the best player should win it, but most times that does NOT happen.
Honestly, Kobe was fortunate to get even one MVP. He really hasn't had that great of an impact in the regular season which is what the MVP award. The award he won could have easily gone to CP3 since Paul had less help around him than Bryant and Paul had more of an impact on his team since he did run the team by himself and was surrounded by over glorified role players and one of the worst bench in the league. Even during the years Nash won, guys like Shaq and Dirk had more impact on their teams than Kobe IN THE REGULAR SEASON.
Ashy Larry
10-14-2011, 05:42 PM
You make some good points I think the one he got plus one of Nash's should of went to kobe Lebron should of had the other. I dont DISAGREE with your fact ... Ashy.
But there is nothing that says you have to choose a top player off top 2 or 3 team. that is just what the award has evolved to.
Once they stopped giving it to MJ in the late 90's ... the award was full of shit. Not that Malone wasnt deserving or Nash but the best player should win it, but most times that does NOT happen.
I agree with the best player reference. It was obvious he was the best player in the league but how "valuable" is that player when the team he's on finishes 19 games behind another squad?? If that's the case, they should come up with another award, the BPA (Best Player Award). And it's the criteria that the award had turned into and it has been that way since 1983. Might as well call it the Andre Dawson Award, since A.D. was the only guy to win the NL MVP award while finishing on a last place team ...... baseball changed that shit quickly.
Brazil
10-14-2011, 05:44 PM
He is no more a top 20 player but still a solid top 30-35
Ashy Larry
10-14-2011, 05:45 PM
Honestly, Kobe was fortunate to get even one MVP. He really hasn't had that great of an impact in the regular season which is what the MVP award. The award he won could have easily gone to CP3 since Paul had less help around him than Bryant and Paul had more of an impact on his team since he did run the team by himself and was surrounded by over glorified role players and one of the worst bench in the league. Even during the years Nash won, guys like Shaq and Dirk had more impact on their teams than Kobe IN THE REGULAR SEASON.
When Nash won it, PHX was killing fools in the regular season and Nash himself had solid double-double (points and assists) numbers. Really don't see a problem with him winning either one. One could have gone to Shaquille possibly but throwing up 35 a night just to finish 19 games behind the Suns equals Tracy McGrady. T-Mac did that a few times, I guess the award should have gone to him as well.
Pelicans78
10-14-2011, 05:49 PM
When Nash won it, PHX was killing fools in the regular season and Nash himself had solid double-double (points and assists) numbers. Really don't see a problem with him winning either one. One could have gone to Shaquille possibly but throwing up 35 a night just to finish 19 games behind the Suns equals Tracy McGrady. T-Mac did that a few times, I guess the award should have gone to him as well.
Really, Amare had a great case the year Nash won his first one. Amare had awesome numbers and was giving Nash tons of easy assists. Both guys had huge impacts which is why Phoenix easily had the best record.
The 2nd year Nash won was basically due to writers seeing Phoenix win without Amare. Still, Dirk had a great argument that season too.
Ashy Larry
10-14-2011, 06:22 PM
Really, Amare had a great case the year Nash won his first one. Amare had awesome numbers and was giving Nash tons of easy assists. Both guys had huge impacts which is why Phoenix easily had the best record.
The 2nd year Nash won was basically due to writers seeing Phoenix win without Amare. Still, Dirk had a great argument that season too.
so true. I could easily see it going to Amare with 26 and 9. I think seeing Nash eclipse that almost 90% from the line, 40% from 3 and 50% from the field got the media juices flowing.
Agree again on the 2nd year. The Spurs had the best record but I guess the media saw Nash carry the Sun to a playoff berth and a division title without Amare who avg'd 26 the previous year. If Duncan had avg'd 24 or 25 instead of 18, the MVP would have been his.
Ashy Larry
10-14-2011, 06:27 PM
Westbrook 15
Nash 14
Amare 13
Melo 12
Pau 11
TheRealCB
10-15-2011, 03:43 AM
Westbrook 15
Nash 14
Amare 13
Melo 12
Pau 11
So Blake Griffin> STAT and PAU
espn :lmao
Jodelo
10-15-2011, 04:51 AM
Pau Gasol at number 11? He is the most offensively skilled big man in the NBA right now.
:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao
Nathan89
10-15-2011, 07:35 AM
Pau 11
Just goes to show Kobe can't win without a top 10 player in the league.:lmao
Giuseppe
10-15-2011, 07:58 AM
^Though Gasol couldn't win a single playoff game till Kobe took him in.
xellos88330
10-15-2011, 09:17 AM
Rankings are retarded.
DUNCANownsKOBE
10-15-2011, 09:57 AM
Amare is at #13
Chrissy Bosh is at #24
:lol Bosh > Amare
DUNCANownsKOBE
10-15-2011, 09:58 AM
Neither Westbrook nor Nash are top 15 players
Killakobe81
10-16-2011, 02:08 PM
Just goes to show Kobe can't win without a top 10 player in the league.:lmao
When does 11 = top 10 Player?
The public school system continues to fail us ...
DPG21920
10-16-2011, 02:19 PM
Amare is at #13
Chrissy Bosh is at #24
:lol Bosh > Amare
I don't know what is so funny about that.
Killakobe81
10-16-2011, 02:34 PM
amare was an MVP candidate before he wore down at season's end. Bosh maybe a better "all-around" or more versatile ...but amare is more valuable than Bosh when healthy. Sure amare doesnt rebound enough for my liking, but he is a more dominant offensive presence than Bosh. And though solid Bosh is not a prime KG or Tim on defense so it's not like he is soo much better than stat on that end. He is clearly better but not enough to make up for amare's superiority on the other end.
DPG21920
10-16-2011, 02:36 PM
IMO plenty of players, especially in a system where you don't have to defend at all, can have good starts. That doesn't mean all that much to me and it's all about what can you do for a full year and in the playoffs. Seasons aren't made up of good starts. Having extreme highs and lows isn't better than consistent.
All I know is Amare couldn't keep it up and had an awful playoff. My point is that when you look back at everything, I think it's pretty damn close and it's not laughable to suggest Bosh is right there with Amare in my humble opinion.
Killakobe81
10-16-2011, 02:40 PM
IMO plenty of players, especially in a system where you don't have to defend at all, can have good starts. That doesn't mean all that much to me and it's all about what can you do for a full year and in the playoffs. Seasons aren't made up of good starts. Having extreme highs and lows isn't better than consistent.
All I know is Amare couldn't keep it up and had an awful playoff. My point is that when you look back at everything, I think it's pretty damn close and it's not laughable to suggest Bosh is right there with Amare in my humble opinion.
Fair points but we know amare was hurt. Even going back to his young days facing title level spur teams, when healthy amare BROUGHT it in the playoffs. I agree it's not that FAR of a gap, but i do think he is better even though Bosh had a better playoffs.
Killakobe81
10-16-2011, 02:45 PM
Also there are 2 different seasons where amare, (early last and Nash's first MVP one) where amare got some MVP "consideration".
When was the season (i must of missed it) where BOsh would be in that type of conversation?
Now I get he was on some shitty Raptors teams, but he did make the playoffs one year. But yet Bosh was considered a "border line" all-star, so much so that he created a viral campaign for fan votes. To me, that is the difference.
Also, despite being older and having two serious injuries it was amare who was the most sought after (behind Lebron and Wade) in FA, not bosh.
Now dont get me wrong because of age and injury I would probably take rupaul ...but currently amare is the better player.
DPG21920
10-16-2011, 02:46 PM
Amare really wasn't that sought after tbh...His own team didn't want him.
Killakobe81
10-16-2011, 02:47 PM
Amare really wasn't that sought after tbh...His own team didn't want him.
LOL, fair point. :lol
DPG21920
10-16-2011, 02:48 PM
Bosh also made the playoffs twice as the man with a terrible Toronto team, not once.
DPG21920
10-16-2011, 02:54 PM
Also, I have been saying this stuff for years. I just don't see an issue going with either guy.
http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127550&highlight=amare+bosh
I would say Amare is better than Bosh. Not by much, but he is a much better finisher.
Nathan89
10-16-2011, 03:10 PM
When does 11 = top 10 Player?
The public school system continues to fail us ...
He didn't have a top 10 player this year = sweep.
That was my point.
Couldn't win a single game with the 11th best player in the league.:lmao
Killakobe81
10-16-2011, 03:14 PM
He didn't have a top 10 player this year = sweep.
That was my point.
Couldn't win a single game with the 11th best player in the league.:lmao
Still a fail. Duncan got swept the year before. Lakers got swept with both shaq and Kobe near their prime. in fact, Shaq who many claim is greater than Kobe has been swept on at least 6 different occasions including in the NBA finals. so what? Many great players have been skunked, even MJ.
DPG21920
10-16-2011, 03:15 PM
My entire point is throughout my years of arguing Bosh v Amare is that I've changed my tune a few times after seeing somethings on who I like better but I have always maintained that the gap was close enough that either could be argued.
Nathan89
10-16-2011, 03:17 PM
Amare really wasn't that sought after tbh...His own team didn't want him.
Weren't the Suns concerned about his health for a long-term contract? Not really a valid point if that's the case.
DPG21920
10-16-2011, 03:33 PM
That is all part of the argument. Players health is definitely a consideration.
Giuseppe
10-16-2011, 04:21 PM
But, as it turns out Sarver just didn't want to enter the arena of bidding over Amare. He didn't think he should have to. He believes the rules are not fair and has ever since with Gilbert in Cleveland prompting Stern to institute a hard cap. These two guys are what is driving Stern to fresh heights on the hard cap issue. Fuck, I wish they would just go fuckin' away.
DUNCANownsKOBE
10-16-2011, 05:58 PM
I don't think the hard cap is even an issue anymore, IMO it's just revenue sharing. Sarver and Gilbert were the only owners who ever seriously expected a hard cap in the new CBA, the other owners were just bluffing. Doubtful a hard cap happens.
DPG21920
10-16-2011, 06:01 PM
It's an issue, but I don't think it's a real huge one at the moment.
Nathan89
10-16-2011, 06:21 PM
That is all part of the argument. Players health is definitely a consideration.
Oh, I thought it was about who was the better player.
DPG21920
10-16-2011, 06:27 PM
It is, in the question of who's better, durability is part of the equation.
Nathan89
10-16-2011, 06:29 PM
Still a fail. Duncan got swept the year before. Lakers got swept with both shaq and Kobe near their prime. in fact, Shaq who many claim is greater than Kobe has been swept on at least 6 different occasions including in the NBA finals. so what? Many great players have been skunked, even MJ.
Neither Duncan or MJ got swept with a border line top 10 player.
When did the Lakers get swept with prime shaq and kobe?
Nathan89
10-16-2011, 06:39 PM
Ranking a player should be based upon what you seen from them. Not potential durability issues in the future.
Durability is not an issue of ranking how good a player is.
It's something to take into consideration when deciding what player you would rather have on your team.
DPG21920
10-16-2011, 06:42 PM
It is definitely something to take into consideration when ranking how good someone is. It's the reason that has kept Manu from being ranked higher. When someone can't stay healthy enough to produce, it factors into how good they can be and how effective they truly are.
Either way, it's semantics and wasn't something that was really swaying the argument either way. The health argument goes into both evaluating them (ability to carry a load a la Manu argument) and who would you rather have on your team going forward (combo of age, health and how good someone is).
Ranking a player should be based upon what you seen from them. Not potential durability issues in the future.
Durability is not an issue of ranking how good a player is.
It's something to take into consideration when deciding what player you would rather have on your team.
It's part and parcel of becoming good, that's the point I think. No one is arguing about how good Greg Oden was last year, even though we've seen good things from him when he was healthy. The same hindered TMac for years. We all knew what he could do, but part of him as a threat was him being able to play. Arenas is another example. So yes, even though you don't actively think about their health, it's a huge part of how they are ranked. They cannot build stats if they don't play.
If you're talking about next season (whenever that is), that's different. The ranks are based on past performances, since it's offseason.
Nathan89
10-18-2011, 04:55 PM
5th best player beat the 1st and 3rd best player in the Finals.:lmao
Nathan89
10-18-2011, 05:03 PM
If I were to make a list I would put Kobe at 8th. There is no reason for him to be ahead of Rose. To be completely honest though there is probably a few other players that should be ranked ahead of him even if he were ranked 8th.
Why does the fact that the Dallas Mavericks beat the Miami Heat make Dirk better than Wade/Bron? For a player averaging 7 rpg and being the worst defensive player on his teams starting line-up, I think hes right where he should be. Wouldnt have complained if he was ahead of Paul either...I think hes kinda been overrated since returning from injuries. His numbers and his team havent been anything spectacular the last few yrs.
Rose is too low too imo. Blake Griffin too high.
Nathan89
10-18-2011, 07:07 PM
Why does the fact that the Dallas Mavericks beat the Miami Heat make Dirk better than Wade/Bron? For a player averaging 7 rpg and being the worst defensive player on his teams starting line-up, I think hes right where he should be. Wouldnt have complained if he was ahead of Paul either...I think hes kinda been overrated since returning from injuries. His numbers and his team havent been anything spectacular the last few yrs.
Rose is too low too imo. Blake Griffin too high.
It doesn't make logical sense that Dirk can beat a team with two people better and Bosh who is better than any of Dirk's teammates.
I think your problem is that you don't take all the criteria that determines a player's worth into account.
It doesn't make logical sense that Dirk can beat a team with two people better and Bosh who is better than any of Dirk's teammates.
I think your problem is that you don't take all the criteria that determines a player's worth into account.
It makes alot of sense when you look at how each team is constructed. Dallas is a very deep team, and has alot of solid defensive players to cover the fact that Dirk is very average on that end.
Miami is a 3 man team basically, who was their best player after those three...Chalmers?A rusty Haslem?Miller was a non-factor the whole season. I think Dirk is getting his due by being placed at 4-5. Bron, Dwight, and Wade are clearly better than him.
Jacob1983
10-18-2011, 10:36 PM
How is Lebitch better than Dirk?
If I were to make a list I would put Kobe at 8th. There is no reason for him to be ahead of Rose. To be completely honest though there is probably a few other players that should be ranked ahead of him even if he were ranked 8th.
Derrick Rose is actually nowhere near as good as Kobe Bryant. He got a huge lift from the MVP he received, but don't pin the medal on the hero before the war even starts.
When Rose has the accomplishments that come even close to Kobe, I will reconsider.
I like Rose, no doubt, but he's more hype than substance right now. That could change and I will be the first to admit it.
Jodelo
10-19-2011, 11:21 AM
It makes alot of sense when you look at how each team is constructed. Dallas is a very deep team, and has alot of solid defensive players to cover the fact that Dirk is very average on that end.
Miami is a 3 man team basically, who was their best player after those three...Chalmers?A rusty Haslem?Miller was a non-factor the whole season. I think Dirk is getting his due by being placed at 4-5. Bron, Dwight, and Wade are clearly better than him.
:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao
Well he does have the same number of season MVP trophies. TBH, were talking about current Kobe vs Rose. Current Kobe didn't accomplish anything besides getting swept out of the playoffs. Rose would have had his way on J. Kidd/Mavs. Lakers with Rose in my mind are a much better team and would most definitely not get swept. Oh yeah, Barea wouldn't rape Rose like he did Kobe.
The team that beat Rose's team was beaten by the team that beat Kobe's team.
So, no.
Like I said, I like Rose, he's a Memphis Tiger, but like Blake, he's not had enough time in grade to be in the talk.
The measure of a player in the NBA isn't just how he did recently. He's how he's done over his career.
If you had to choose tomorrow, Kobe or Rose, are you saying you would choose Rose?
I see Rose as Monta Ellis with a higher IQ.
Regardless, he was 8th. I can see how that's possible for an MVP, but Nash was a back to back MVP, and I would never consider him better than Kobe or Tim.
TD 21
10-25-2011, 06:50 PM
http://clipperblog.com/2011/10/25/when-counting-the-rings-goes-wrong/
Nathan89
10-25-2011, 07:46 PM
The team that beat Rose's team was beaten by the team that beat Kobe's team.
So, no.
Like I said, I like Rose, he's a Memphis Tiger, but like Blake, he's not had enough time in grade to be in the talk.
The measure of a player in the NBA isn't just how he did recently. He's how he's done over his career.
If you had to choose tomorrow, Kobe or Rose, are you saying you would choose Rose?
I see Rose as Monta Ellis with a higher IQ.
Regardless, he was 8th. I can see how that's possible for an MVP, but Nash was a back to back MVP, and I would never consider him better than Kobe or Tim.
That statement doesn't mean anything.
Mavs>Heat
Mavs>LA
Heat>Bulls
That doesn't mean LA is better than the Bulls. Even if they were doesn't mean that Kobe>Rose. I mean Rose doesn't have the talent that Kobe does on his team, IMO.
Yes, I would take Rose over Kobe right now.
Killakobe81
10-25-2011, 10:25 PM
Why does the fact that the Dallas Mavericks beat the Miami Heat make Dirk better than Wade/Bron? For a player averaging 7 rpg and being the worst defensive player on his teams starting line-up, I think hes right where he should be. Wouldnt have complained if he was ahead of Paul either...I think hes kinda been overrated since returning from injuries. His numbers and his team havent been anything spectacular the last few yrs.
Rose is too low too imo. Blake Griffin too high.
I agree with most of this.
Paul though amazing in the playoffs is way too high. Blake too. the voting ESPN did was so inconsistent. they based some of it on career some on potential it was mostly shit.
As for Dirk, one of the most amazing shooting seasons I have ever seen.
But people that talk that top 3 or #1 for dirk are full of shit. Yes he should be over both Paul and Blake but BEFORE his playoff run not even most Mavs fans would of made that case.
Now Mav fans here (and around the city) are moving Dirk up the all-time PF rankings over KG and Malone, and current ranks over better players.
Dirk is the boss as the defending champ, but let's NOT get crazy!
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions Inc. All rights reserved.