First health care dominio falls...

[CosmicCowboy]

Obama pulls plug on part of health overhaul law

By RICARDO ALONSO-ZALDIVAR
Associated Press

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WASHINGTON (AP) -- The Obama administration Friday pulled the plug on a major program in the president's signature health overhaul law - a long-term care insurance plan dogged from the beginning by doubts over its financial solvency.

Targeted by congressional Republicans for repeal, the long-term care plan became the first casualty in the political and policy wars over the health care law. The program had been expected to launch in 2013.

"This is a victory for the American taxpayer and future generations," said Sen. John Thune, R-S.D., spearheading opposition in the Senate. "The administration is finally admitting (the long-term care plan) is unsustainable and cannot be implemented."

Proponents, including many groups that fought to pass the health care law, have vowed a vigorous effort to rescue the long-term care plan, insisting that Congress gave the administration broad authority to make changes.

Known as CLASS, the Community Living Assistance Services and Supports program was a longstanding priority of the late Massachusetts Democratic Sen. Edward M. Kennedy.

Although sponsored by the government, it was supposed to function as a self-sustaining voluntary insurance plan, open to working adults regardless of age or health. Workers would pay an affordable monthly premium during their careers, and could collect a modest daily cash benefit of at least $50 if they became disabled later in life. Beneficiaries could use the money for services to help them stay at home, or to help with nursing home bills.

But a central design flaw dogged CLASS from the beginning. Unless large numbers of healthy people willingly sign up during their working years, soaring premiums driven by the needs of disabled beneficiaries would destabilize it, eventually requiring a taxpayer bailout.

After months insisting that problems could be resolved, Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius, finally admitted Friday she doesn't see how that can be done.

"Despite our best analytical efforts, I do not see a viable path forward for CLASS implementation at this time," Sebelius said in a letter to congressional leaders.

The law required the administration to certify that CLASS would remain financially solvent for 75 years before it could be put into place.

But officials said they discovered they could not make CLASS both affordable and financially solvent while keeping it a voluntary program open to virtually all workers, as the law also required.

Monthly premiums would have ranged from $235 to $391, even as high as $3,000 under some scenarios, the administration said. At those prices, healthy people were unlikely to sign up. Suggested changes geared at discouraging enrollment by people in poor health would have opened the program to court challenges, officials said.

"If healthy purchasers are not attracted ... then premiums will increase, which will make it even more unattractive to purchasers who could also obtain policies in the private market," Kathy Greenlee, the lead official on CLASS, said in a memo to Sebelius. That "would cause the program to quickly collapse."

That's essentially the same conclusion that one the government's top experts reached in 2009. Nearly a year before the health care law passed, Richard Foster, head of long-range economic forecasts for Medicare warned administration and congressional officials that CLASS would be unworkable. His warnings were disregarded, as Obama declared his support for adding the long-term care plan to his health care bill.

The demise of CLASS immediately touched off speculation about its impact on the federal budget. Although no premiums are likely to be collected, the program still counts as reducing the federal deficit by about $80 billion over the next ten years. That's because of a rule that would have required workers to pay in for at least five years before they could collect any benefits.

"The CLASS Act was a budget gimmick that might enhance the numbers on a Washington bureaucrat's spreadsheet but was destined to fail in the real world," said Senate Republican Leader Mitch McConnell of Kentucky.

Administration officials said Obama's next budget would reflect the decision not to go forward. Even without CLASS premiums, they said Obama's health care law will still reduce the deficit by more than $120 billion over 10 years.

Kennedy's original idea was to give families some financial breathing room. The burden of long-term care is growing. Most families cannot afford to hire a home health aide for a frail elder, let alone pay nursing home bills. Long-term care is usually provided by family members, often a spouse who may also have health problems.

Sebelius said Friday the administration remains committed to that larger goal, and wants to work with Congress and supporters of the plan to find a way. But it appears unlikely that CLASS can be salvaged in the foreseeable future. Congressional Republicans say they are committed to its repeal.

[boutons_deux]

Why The CLASS Demise Is Not A Sign Of Health Reform’s Failure

Today’s news that HHS will not administer CLASS — the Affordable Care Act’s long term care program — is already being touted by conservatives as emblematic of the law’s failure. The first “gimmick” in a long line of “budgetary tricks” that will ultimately sink reform. But it is nothing of the sort.

Kathleen Sebelius’ decision to end the program is yet another example of the success of one of the law’s safety clutches (this one was actually introduced by former Republican Sen. Judd Gregg). The ACA prohibits the Secretary from instituting CLASS unless the program can sustain itself without tax payer funding for 75 years. Sebelius and her team concluded that it the program wouldn’t attract healthier applicants and as a result pay out more than it would take in. That it was suspended at this point is a better example of the administration’s fiscal restrain and economic stewardship than its failure.

And by the way, critics are misunderstanding what this announcement really means. The administration’s conclusion that a voluntary program results in an unsustainable death spiral is actually and indictment of those who want to repeal the individual mandate and a point of vindication for advocates who argue that the mandate is necessary to maintain the ACA’s coverage expansions and affordability.

http://thinkprogress.org/health/2011/10/14/344820/class-not-health-reform-failure/

[clambake]

whats a dominio?

[Wild Cobra]

How can he pull the plug on something voted into law, and that he signed?

--- nevernind ---

Still, the reasons are what we conservatives were saying all along. It simply is too costly of a program.

[Wild Cobra]

whats a dominio?
Come on now...

It's obvious he had the "i" key jump out in front of the "o" key:

5_tXcRYOYZ0

[EVAY]

It seems to me that this represents a very good thing. It also reflects some aspects of bipartisan interests in that the requirement that the CLASS portion of the law not be enacted unless it could be found to be economically viable for 75 years is due to a Republican senator...and the administration is following the law by acknowledging that because it cannot be shown to be viable, it will not be implemented.

Isn't this a win/win for everyone?

[EVAY]

Wouldn't we want any social (or defense ) program to be solvency-tested in this way?

[EVAY]

The proverbial rubber will meet the road, I believe, when the courts address the issue of the constitutionality of the mandatory insurance requirement. If that requirement is deemed unconstitutional, then the entire health care law becomes prohibitively expensive, imo. But if the courts allow that provision to remain in the existing law, I think the enitre program goes forward with a chance of lowering the rate of increase in health care costs. It is not going to lower health care costs...but it might lower the rate of increase, and that would really be a help for lots of us.

[Wild Cobra]

It seems to me that this represents a very good thing. It also reflects some aspects of bipartisan interests in that the requirement that the CLASS portion of the law not be enacted unless it could be found to be economically viable for 75 years is due to a Republican senator...and the administration is following the law by acknowledging that because it cannot be shown to be viable, it will not be implemented.

Isn't this a win/win for everyone?
I agree it's a win. Obama failed, though belated. At least i think so. Doesn't this pretty much blow away Obamacare as a whole? I believe the only thing somewhat costly implemented so far is requiring that health care plans include dependents till they are 26. It allowed me to keep youngest my daughter on my plan, but I did see a big premium jump. Can't say how much of the jump would have happened without the change though. It still would have increased.

[Wild Cobra]

Wouldn't we want any social (or defense ) program to be solvency-tested in this way?
We already see that the war on poverty and the war on drugs are a failure. I say we stop those programs.

[EVAY]

I agree it's a win. Obama failed, though belated. At least i think so. Doesn't this pretty much blow away Obamacare as a whole? I believe the only thing somewhat costly implemented so far is requiring that health care plans include dependents till they are 26. It allowed me to keep youngest my daughter on my plan, but I did see a big premium jump. Can't say how much of the jump would have happened without the change though. It still would have increased.

I don't really agree that Obama failed. If it was his law, it was ALL his law, including the solvency test. So he is obeying the law, which is written to include some good economic variables as well as some other things.

I don't think that your daughter would have been able to be on your plan, regardless of the size of the premium, without this new law. She would have had to get insurance on her own, or be without any. The fact that so many young people ARE without health care insurance is one of the things that the law requiring everybody to carry insurance is meant to address.

[EVAY]

We already see that the war on poverty and the war on drugs are a failure. I say we stop those programs.

What about defense contracts for Navy destroyers that are no longer useful, according to the last Defense Secretary?

There are LOTS of things in lots of areas that couldn't survive the scrutiny that is part of this law. That's why I like the law...or at least that part of it.

[ChuckD]

Can you imagine a present day Republican reconsidering something they had put into law? I sure as fuck can't.

Not only can they not admit a mistake, they are so insecure that can't even admit the possibility of a mistake.

[Wild Cobra]

What about defense contracts for Navy destroyers that are no longer useful, according to the last Defense Secretary?

There are LOTS of things in lots of areas that couldn't survive the scrutiny that is part of this law. That's why I like the law...or at least that part of it.
Well, first of all, existing contracts need to be honored. I would say it most likely if the defense secretary says we don't need it, then we don't. If I recall, such things happen as congressmen make deals so their constituents get something, making them look good for bringing home the bacon. Now it's important for congress to represent their voters, I just wish their was a simple way to stop such deal making. I wish their was some way to expose and throw them out on their asses.

I think a start would be not allowing any amendments in legislation outside the scope and function or the originating bill. To allow amendments in bills where a representative or senator effectively says "I will vote on a bill if my amendment is in it" should be a federal crime.

[Wild Cobra]

Can you imagine a present day Republican reconsidering something they had put into law? I sure as fuck can't.

Not only can they not admit a mistake, they are so insecure that can't even admit the possibility of a mistake.
Obama had no choice. How long did it take to realize his idea was no good?

[ChumpDumper]

How can he pull the plug on something voted into law, and that he signed?

--- nevernind ---

Still, the reasons are what we conservatives were saying all along. It simply is too costly of a program.The health care mandate is a conservative idea sold by conservatives until a liberal agreed.

[Yonivore]

And, once the Supremes laugh the individual mandate out of their court, along with disallowing severability of the provision from the rest of the law, the whole idiotic idea will be a big stinking heap of dung on the courthouse floor.

I'm sure Chief Justice Roberts will kindly ask the Solicitor General to clean up the mess and remove it from the building.

[DMX7]

WC - proving how fucking stupid he is as usual. Now republicans are against small business tax credits, payroll tax cuts and the EPA (which a republican president created).

[DMX7]

And, once the Supremes laugh the individual mandate out of their court...

That won't happen. You know very little about the Supreme Court if you think they won't uphold that part.

[ChumpDumper]

And, once the Supremes laugh the individual mandate out of their court, along with disallowing severability of the provision from the rest of the law, the whole idiotic idea will be a big stinking heap of dung on the courthouse floor.

I'm sure Chief Justice Roberts will kindly ask the Solicitor General to clean up the mess and remove it from the building.Why would the SCOTUS determine the severability of the other provisions if it hasn't even happened yet?

[Yonivore]

WC - proving how fucking stupid he is as usual. Now republicans are against small business tax credits, payroll tax cuts and the EPA (which a republican president created).
Things change and Democrats manage to corrupt and bastardize every good idea that's ever been had and handed to them.

Can't speak to the tax issues but, Republicans have wanted to dismantle the EPA for years. It's completed it Nixonian mandates -- probably about 1980 -- and has since gone about a tyrannically overreaching it's authority. It's a monster -- along the lines of the IRS -- that needs to be slain and tossed.

Seriously, CO2 is a toxin?

[Yonivore]

That won't happen. You know very little about the Supreme Court if you think they won't uphold that part.
Okay.

[ElNono]

Government willingly shutting down an unsustainable program?

:tu :tu :tu

[DMX7]

...Republicans have wanted to dismantle the EPA for years. It's completed it Nixonian mandates -- probably about 1980 -- and has since gone about a tyrannically overreaching it's authority. It's a monster -- along the lines of the IRS -- that needs to be slain and tossed.

Seriously, CO2 is a toxin?

Cap-and-Trade, yet another thing republicans were for before they were against.

[Yonivore]

Cap-and-Trade, yet another thing republicans were for before they were against.
Cap and Trade; yet another bad idea.

[DMX7]

Cap and Trade; yet another bad idea.

Yet another republican proposed idea.

[Yonivore]

Yet another republican proposed idea.
So, they came around. And, if I bothered to research, I'm betting the two ideas were only similar in name. But, it matters little, the current iteration is an abysmal job killer.

[ElNono]

like you ever care about details, yoni?

[Wild Cobra]

Cap-and-Trade, yet another thing republicans were for before they were against.
Really?

Not that I ever saw.

Link please. I want to see this!

if you are so certain of that, then it should be easy to prove me wrong.

[DMX7]

But, it matters little, the current iteration is an abysmal job killer.

lol, you mean the "iteration" you pulled straight out of your ass in order to justify its republican opposition?

[Yonivore]

lol, you mean the "iteration" you pulled straight out of your ass in order to justify its republican opposition?
Even if it's the identical sheme; it's a bad idea. I'm glad Republicans now oppose it. Yeah! Whoop Whoop!

What do you want me to say?

God knows Republicans can lay as many eggs as Democrats.

[ElNono]

Go red team!

[Wild Cobra]

DMX7....

Who are the republican supporters of Tax and Cap?

Are the conservatives, or RINOs?

The only examples are find are not showing anyone as supporters of any draft that came out. Just the basic concept, before the facts were revealed.

[ElNono]

DMX7....

Who are the republican supporters of Tax and Cap?

Are the conservatives, or RINOs?

The only examples are find are not showing anyone as supporters of any draft that came out. Just the basic concept, before the facts were revealed.

Quick google search:

http://www.grist.org/article/2010-06-29-remember-when-republicans-liked-cap-and-trade

[Wild Cobra]

Quick google search:

http://www.grist.org/article/2010-06-29-remember-when-republicans-liked-cap-and-trade
Not speaking of details, and was against after seeing the numbers:
I do support the cap-and-trade concept because I believe it offers the opportunity to reduce carbon, at the least cost to society. The signal about future prices sent to electric power-plant operators will hopefully stimulate spending on low- and zero-carbon renewable energy plants now.

I don't see this as an endorsement. I too, am impressed by how dumb people can be. Does that mean I endorse them:
I'm impressed with the fact the Chicago Climate Exchange, maybe as a prelude to some type of cap-and-trade or carbon-pricing system in our country, has at least established a price for carbon.

This is no endorsement, it has a condition:
I have no problem with trading as long as you don't devastate the economy. This is what solved acid rain. Some people on my side say, "Just create incentives." I say that's opening up the Treasury to every group in the country. I want to set emission standards and let the best technology win.

What was the state version, and what is the missing text:
Reducing carbon dioxide emission in Massachusetts has long been a priority of mine. Passing this legislation is an important step ... towards improving our environment.

What else do you expect from RINO losers:
A cap-and-trade policy will send a signal that will be heard and welcomed all across the American economy. And the highest rewards will go to those who make the smartest, safest, most responsible choices.

I don't see this as evidence of republicans supporting any written legislation of the idea. Concept yes, practice no.

[Yonivore]

Back to the opening post, regarding the failure of CLASS.

The people defending the Obama administration for realizing what they were told many months ago, that the CLASS program was actuarially unsound, are missing the bigger picture as this failure relates to Obamacare, in general.

The public was sold this pile of shit on the promise it would bend the cost curve, and be a budget positive. $86 Billion of that positive affect on the budget was ascribed to the CLASS component. If they're were that far off on this one component, I'm sure we can remain confident in the rest of the forecast. Eh?

[ElNono]

The public was sold this pile of shit on the promise it would bend the cost curve, and be a budget positive. $86 Billion of that positive affect on the budget was ascribed to the CLASS component. If they're were that far off on this one component, I'm sure we can remain confident in the rest of the forecast. Eh?

You didn't even ask for a forecast when Medicare Part D passed. That's what makes you a hypocrite.

[ElNono]

Not speaking of details, and was against after seeing the numbers:

I don't see this as an endorsement. I too, am impressed by how dumb people can be. Does that mean I endorse them:

This is no endorsement, it has a condition:

What was the state version, and what is the missing text:

What else do you expect from RINO losers:

I don't see this as evidence of republicans supporting any written legislation of the idea. Concept yes, practice no.


Are you talking to yourself?

[Wild Cobra]

You didn't even ask for a forecast when Medicare Part D passed. That's what makes you a hypocrite.
That was entirely a different thing, and I have no problem with providing better for our elderly and handicapped.

Apparently, you do.

[ElNono]

That was entirely a different thing

It was a healthcare bill.


Apparently, you do.

Apparently you only care about deficits when blue team is in power.

[Wild Cobra]

Apparently you only care about deficits when blue team is in power.
You are off your rocker if you think I would have supported the same Obamacare under republicans.

[ElNono]

You are off your rocker if you think I would have supported the same Obamacare under republicans.

Arguably (and I'm basing this on what 101A said in another thread), Medicare Part D is actually more expensive than BarryCare.

So yeah, you do only care about deficits when blue team is in power.

[Wild Cobra]

Arguably (and I'm basing this on what 101A said in another thread), Medicare Part D is actually more expensive than BarryCare.

We disagree. If that was fact, Part D would not have happened. It would have been stopped like future Obamacare previsions are being stopped.

[ElNono]

We disagree. If that was fact, Part D would not have happened. It would have been stopped like future Obamacare previsions are being stopped.

Sure it would have happened. It was all rolled into the national credit card, that's the difference. You are just too much of a partisan hack to notice back when it passed.

And I'll take 101A word for it any day of the week, seeing he makes his living out of that.

[Wild Cobra]

Sure it would have happened. It was all rolled into the national credit card, that's the difference. You are just too much of a partisan hack to notice back when it passed.

And I'll take 101A word for it any day of the week, seeing he makes his living out of that.
No.

Part D is far cheaper than what Obama care would be fully implemented.

[ElNono]

Part D is far cheaper than what Obama care would be fully implemented.

Here's when I say "back that up", and you say "I'm not going to take the time"

[Wild Cobra]

Here's when I say "back that up", and you say "I'm not going to take the time"
So why are you asking?

Why not just refer to the OP? Isn't the administration saying it's too expensive?

[ElNono]

So why are you asking?

Why not just refer to the OP? Isn't the administration saying it's too expensive?

Maybe you missed it:


Government willingly shutting down an unsustainable program?

:tu :tu :tu


If only the GOP would do the same with theirs. Heck, not even shutting it down, but actually offsetting the cost with savings.

[Wild Cobra]

Correct.

Obamacare is not sustainable. Part D is.

[MannyIsGod]

really?

Not that i ever saw.

Link please. I want to see this!

If you are so certain of that, then it should be easy to prove me wrong.

smh

[ElNono]

Part D is.

Prove it.

[Wild Cobra]

Prove it.
LOL...

It's already been law for some time. The extra cost is within our power to collect6 revenue. We just need to stop the frivilous spending elsewhere. Obamacare is too large a chunk of money.

Are you attempting to claim that Obamacare, fully implemented, is cheaper than part D?

[ElNono]

It's already been law for some time.

Stop beating around the bush.
Your claim. Prove it.

[Wild Cobra]

Stop beating around the bush.
Your claim. Prove it.
Why, when it's so much fun to see you react this way?

[ElNono]

Why, when it's so much fun to see you react this way?

Which way? Exposing the fact that you can't back up your 'fact'? :lmao

[Wild Cobra]

Which way? Exposing the fact that you can't back up your 'fact'? :lmao
If that's what you want to believe, I don't care.

[ElNono]

Why, when it's so much fun to see you react this way?


If that's what you want to believe, I don't care.

Sure you don't :lmao

[admiralsnackbar]

If that's what you want to believe, I don't care.

You must be a 20-something.

Aimiright? :lol

[Winehole23]

http://www.merriam-webster.com/spanish/dominio

[boutons_deux]

"I have no problem with providing better for our elderly and handicapped."

It's totally unfunded, and was a huge giveaway to BigPharma since Medicare/Medicaid were forbidden from "single buyer" price negotiations, so they pay 40% more than the VA. And then there was the perverse, cruel donut hole, where seniors simply cut back or quit taking unaffordable drugs.

Medicare Advantage was also unfunded and another huge giveaway to for-profit insurers. Subsidized, for-profit MC cost 14% more than govt MC. "The private sector can always do it cheaper", right?

That's how the "MBA" Repugs (mis)govern, by enriching the Corporate-Americans while fucking over Human-Americans.

[EVAY]

"I have no problem with providing better for our elderly and handicapped."

It's totally unfunded, and was a huge giveaway to BigPharma since Medicare/Medicaid were forbidden from "single buyer" price negotiations, so they pay 40% more than the VA. And then there was the perverse, cruel donut hole, where seniors simply cut back or quit taking unaffordable drugs.

Medicare Advantage was also unfunded and another huge giveaway to for-profit insurers. Subsidized, for-profit MC cost 14% more than govt MC.

This is factually true. It DOES cost 14% more in administrative costs to process the Medicare-Advantage type programs, and what is amazing to me about it is that some people who are enrolled in them actually think that they are avoiding (not utilizing) Medicare by subscribing to them.

[boutons_deux]

yep, $100Bs of profits are premised upon and made from stupid Americans, compounded by the purposely, complexly opaque products and dishonest marketing.

[Yonivore]

http://pl-mgroup-akamai.powerlineblog.com/admin/ed-assets/2011/10/SocializedMedicine011.jpg

The British are getting more efficient with their "Death Panels." Nothing like delegating these routine decisions down to the local level (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/elderhealth/8829350/Elderly-patients-condemned-to-early-death-by-secret-use-of-do-not-resuscitate-orders.html).

Elderly patients are being condemned to an early death by hospitals making secret use of “do not resuscitate” orders, an investigation has found.

The orders – which record an advance decision that a patient’s life should not be saved if their heart stops – are routinely being applied without the knowledge of the patient or their relatives.

On one ward, one-third of DNR orders were issued without consultation with the patient or their family, according to the NHS’s own records. At another hospital, junior doctors freely admitted that the forms were filled out by medical teams without the involvement of patients or relatives. …

In 2009, heart attack victim Peter Clarke was left to die at Derby Hospitals Trust after clerical staff inserted a DNR form into his notes. Although the document was blank, nursing staff making handover notes misinterpreted it, and said the widower, who had been admitted suffering heart disease and flu-like symptoms, should not be resuscitated if his condition worsened.

When he suffered a heart attack, nurses did not call doctors to revive him. An hour too late they realised the DNR order was blank. Last year an inquest into his death found staff had been “routinely” placing the forms in medical records before they had been signed and witnessed.

[ElNono]

Look like the Brits love their 'socialized medicine' too, and it costs them much less (http://www.marketwatch.com/health-care/reform/snapshot)

Satisfaction
Nearly three out of four people were “completely” satisfied that their general practitioner or health center had dealt with the main reason for their visit, according to a 2008 survey from the Picker Institute.

[boutons_deux]

10 of 1000s of babies die in USA every year for lack of perinatal care, dropping USA's infant mortality way way down the international table, way worse than any other industrial country, due to no universal health care AND health care and health insurance that is suck-you-dry exorbitant.

To make it worse in TX, the sociopathic Repugs have defunded and closed family planning/maternal care clinics statewide, with the admission that their objective is a war on contraception. Estimate is that there will 20K unwanted pregnancies/year (and 100s more abortion, way to go, "Christian" motherfuckers), and probably 100s if not 1000s of intensive care or perinatal deaths.

Keeping score, Yoni? TX alone vs all of UK's "death panel" kills? nah, I didn't think so.

[boutons_deux]

Ask any industrial country's citizens if they would trade their universal health care for the "economic Darwinism" of USA health care.

goddammit, it's fun and easy bitch-slapping Yoni :lol :lol :lol

Come on, Yoni, unblock me and take it like a man. In fact your just another dickless law enforcement bully who lvoes to dish it out with the law behind him, but runs away from any push back. :lol

[Yonivore]

10 of 1000s of babies die in USA every year for lack of perinatal care, dropping USA's infant mortality way way down the international table, way worse than any other industrial country, due to no universal health care AND health care and health insurance that is suck-you-dry exorbitant.

To make it worse in TX, the sociopathic Repugs have defunded and closed family planning/maternal care clinics statewide, with the admission that their objective is a war on contraception. Estimate is that there will 20K unwanted pregnancies/year (and 100s more abortion, way to go, "Christian" motherfuckers), and probably 100s if not 1000s of intensive care or perinatal deaths.

Keeping score, Yoni? TX alone vs all of UK's "death panel" kills? nah, I didn't think so.
Infant mortality, in the United States, is so poor because of the way infants are defined here. Many countries don't even consider premature births, before a certain week gestation, as counting in the mortality rate, if the infant dies.

We, on the other hand, go to herculean efforts to save every life and, as a result, many infants die -- just as they do in other countries but, where their deaths don't count.

Incidentally, I wonder where China's one-child practice of killing baby girls, at birth, would place them, if they counted them as deaths.

[Wild Cobra]

Boutons is so hypocritical. Worried about infant mortality rates, byt supports unlimited abortions.

[ElNono]

This from the guy that wants to forcefully tie tubes... talk about hypocrite

[ElNono]

How Medicare Fails the Elderly (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/16/opinion/sunday/how-medicare-fails-the-elderly.html)

Good read, imo

[LkrFan]

whats a dominio?

:lol

[boutons_deux]

Boutons is so hypocritical. Worried about infant mortality rates, byt supports unlimited abortions.

You Lie. I hate abortion, but I'm not a woman.

[EVAY]

How Medicare Fails the Elderly (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/16/opinion/sunday/how-medicare-fails-the-elderly.html)

Good read, imo

This was an excellent read, E-N. Thank you for posting it.

The most important line it ( of many important lines, imo), was the one that showed that dying of old age is not a treatable disease.

Billy Graham has said, appropriately, that American medicine tends to prolong death rather than prolonging life.

It is critical that people reaching elderly status take a good long look at how they want to treat themselves and their own children when considering living wills, medical directives, and DNR statements. My husband and I both have them written, saved in a safe place, and communicated to our children and other close relatives. I made sure that my directives are to be administered by my sister (a health care provider in her younger years) so that our children will not have to feel guilty about making the decisions that I want to be made when the time comes.

These decisions are, I believe, what some have erroneously called 'death panel' decisions. The fact is that most people do not have the resources (mental, emotional, or monetary to pay for the lawyers) to create a lot of these documents well in advance of when they are desperately needed.
That reality is why the discussions were encouraged in the recent law. The relabeling of these discussions into 'death panels' is one of the worst examples of political demagoguery in recent years, imo.

It is hard for people to say 'let me die'. It is even harder for a child or spouse to say 'let him/her die'. That is why it is so useful to have people make these decisions for themselves whenever they can, and to provide help in making those decisions by professionals. They are NOT death panels. They are kindness itself, imo.

If you have ever watched someone you love go through this sort of thing, I think you might agree.

[boutons_deux]

many infants die -- just as they do in other countries but, where their deaths don't count.

links for other industrial letting premature babies die?

Countries like China and India don't count because it's well known they prefer boys and abort female babies by the millions.

[DMX7]

And, once the Supremes laugh the individual mandate out of their court, along with disallowing severability of the provision from the rest of the law, the whole idiotic idea will be a big stinking heap of dung on the courthouse floor.

I'm sure Chief Justice Roberts will kindly ask the Solicitor General to clean up the mess and remove it from the building.

That won't happen. You know very little about the Supreme Court if you think they won't uphold that part.

:lol

[scott]

Justice Yonivore sided with the Minority Opinion

[fraga]

Mahahaha...

http://erstories.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/cats_fail-14143.jpg

[Trainwreck2100]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_1x8U4TSWhtI/TT-f-Hnc8FI/AAAAAAAAAjg/mx0nrZ8fWdM/s1600/DominoReal.jpg

[MannyIsGod]

And, once the Supremes laugh the individual mandate out of their court, along with disallowing severability of the provision from the rest of the law, the whole idiotic idea will be a big stinking heap of dung on the courthouse floor.

I'm sure Chief Justice Roberts will kindly ask the Solicitor General to clean up the mess and remove it from the building.

:lmao !!!!!!!!!!!

Has Yoni EVER gotten shit right?

[MannyIsGod]

Things change and Democrats manage to corrupt and bastardize every good idea that's ever been had and handed to them.

Can't speak to the tax issues but, Republicans have wanted to dismantle the EPA for years. It's completed it Nixonian mandates -- probably about 1980 -- and has since gone about a tyrannically overreaching it's authority. It's a monster -- along the lines of the IRS -- that needs to be slain and tossed.

Seriously, CO2 is a toxin?

:lmao

hahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahha

How many court rulings in one week can Yonivore not get right?

[Blake]

I was just thinking this thread needed an extra large worthless picture

[DarrinS]

Lol @ people trying to say "I told you so" when this decision was pretty much a shocker to everyone.

[ChumpDumper]

Lol @ people trying to say "I told you so" when this decision was pretty much a shocker to everyone.Looks like people's guaranteed predictions are being mocked.

[MannyIsGod]

A decision that was considered to go 50/50 can't be a shocker.

[jack sommerset]

:lmao

hahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahha

How many court rulings in one week can Yonivore not get right?

You should embrace yoni with kindness and understanding instead of laughing at him. You know how it feels to be wrong with predictions. Just a suggestion my brother. I'll be in here the following day if Obama is re elected unlike you with the Walker predictions you made for 6 months.

With that said, this makes it even tougher for Obama to get re elected. I was thinking if the courts kill the bill Obama could at least say " I tried" and move on. This decision is bringing back all those horrible memories that lost the dems the house to the republicans 2 years ago and those governor seats plus the old Kennedy seat. The decision wasn't even a hour old and they had tapes of Obama saying not one tax increase over and over and over followed up with this healthcare mandate being declared a tax. The supreme court justice that everyone thought was on the republican side might have made a very deep decision to bury Obama once a for all. Just an opinion my brothers. God bless

[MannyIsGod]

:lol My Walker prediction was right. What the hell are you talking about? Go back and look at them, I said they would collect enough signatures for the recall elections and they did.

[ChumpDumper]

Is there a Bible verse that tells you to know what the hell you're talking about?

[jack sommerset]

:lol My Walker prediction was right. What the hell are you talking about? Go back and look at them, I said they would collect enough signatures for the recall elections and they did.

No thanks. Perhaps I misunderstood you when you said Walker would be recalled. God bless.

[ElNono]

Remember when jack was riding that Florida's judge decision and predicted the SCOTUS would rule Barrycare unconstitutional? :lol

[ChumpDumper]

lol perhaps

[jack sommerset]

Remember when jack was riding that Florida's judge decision and predicted the SCOTUS would rule Barrycare unconstitutional? :lol

My brother, I will say a prayer for you this evening. I'm surprised of this decision handed down today. God works in mysterious ways. This story is not finished yet. God bless

[ElNono]

My brother, I will say a prayer for you this evening. I'm surprised of this decision handed down today. God works in mysterious ways. This story is not finished yet. God bless

You should pray for yourself to find the enlightenment that you've been lacking, tbh

[jack sommerset]

lol perhaps

Perhaps I didn't. Manny can say why he wants, believe what he wants to believe. He is a good man and so are you my brother. God bless

[jack sommerset]

You should pray for yourself to find the enlightenment that you've been lacking, tbh

I will my brother. Thanks for the suggestion. God bless

[ElNono]

:lol to borrow a phrase from boutons, jack sounding like the American taliban lately...

[ChumpDumper]

He's going to go on a murder spree one day.

[jack sommerset]

You guys are silly.

Seriously, I hope manny takes my advice. Denial is a wonderful place to be but we all know it's temporary. Intellectual humility is a wonderful thing to have. Admitting your mistakes will make you healthier. Like I said or i should say tried to say I will not be the one to sort through 1000s of post to prove what i already know as fact. It's not important to me to show manny up or call him out any more than I already did. Manny, you have a good soul and you are a smart person. Use your gifts to encourage those in your life instead of putting them down. God bless

[MannyIsGod]

Whats going to happen is that there is going to be a shitload of recall elections and this thing will be repealed.


lol


Oh there will be recall elections in WI. Guaranteed.

[MannyIsGod]

I guess I was wrong about it being repealed. The court struck it down instead. MY BAD.

[ChumpDumper]

You guys are silly.You're a time bomb.

Ron bless.

[mouse]

Come on now...

It's obvious he had the "i" key jump out in front of the "o" key:

5_tXcRYOYZ0

Rack!

[jack sommerset]

I guess I was wrong about it being repealed. The court struck it down instead. MY BAD.

Congratulations! This is a start. The road to recovery is a rough one. You are a very emotional person and have a big heart. It takes a big person to admit they are wrong and even a bigger person to do something about it. Walker still being the governor doesn't matter. People are wrong all the time. It's what they do after is what is the real problem. Making fun of Yoni is not a healthy thing for you to do. Take chump for instance. That man is in here day and night making noise, causing problems and accusing people of all sorts of hurtful damaging things. He is not a happy person. No one can be happy conducting themselves in that sort of behavior. It's a defense mechanism for something negative that has happened in his life. This thread I'm being accused of being a time bomb that could go out and kill people. He has terrible sleeping patterns and when I mentioned that he accused me of stalking him! You don't want to end up like him. Bitter and full of hate. I still have hope for him and will continue to pray for him. You can stop this foolishness if you want and today was a start. Way to go. Tell yoni to keep on posting and his opinion counts. God bless

[George Gervin's Afro]

My brother, I will say a prayer for you this evening. I'm surprised of this decision handed down today. God works in mysterious ways. This story is not finished yet. God bless

denial..lol

[jack sommerset]

denial..lol

My brother, the election will be based on healthcare now. You vote for Obama, you like it, you vote for Mitt, you dont want to pay for other people's healthcare. It might be a tough pill to swallow for a complex intelectual individual like you but mark my words, the new leader of the USA will be voted in for his stance on healthcare. God bless

[George Gervin's Afro]

My brother, the election will be based on healthcare now. You vote for Obama, you like it, you vote for Mitt, you dont want to pay for other people's healthcare. It might be a tough pill to swallow for a complex intelectual individual like you but mark my words, the new leader of the USA will be voted in for his stance on healthcare. God bless

we already pay for other people's healthcare ..you do realize that..right?

[101A]

Really torn on this one.

As a conservative, a person who truly believes that the power of the Federal Government should be limited; that the 10th amendment is the most abused text in the entire Constitution, I don't like this ruling at all. Roberts took a tortured path to find a reason to uphold the law. It appears that he made his decision, then figured out a way to justify it.

However, this law DOES require all Americans to purchase health insurance, and, more significantly establishes a penalty for employers who choose NOT to provide health insurance to their employees.

My company sells group health insurance; this is a windfall (seriously).

Thus, the dilemma.

Screw it, self interest wins. I'm freaking ecstatic about this ruling :hat

[FuzzyLumpkins]

A tax and a fine may be a matter of semantics but the court ruled the penalty to be the former. The only effect the mandate has is to give the insurers a captive audience is neither here nor there as to health care talking up 1/4 of GNP. If there is no oversight on rates like there is at the state level for car liability then a vertical demand slope will do as it will.

[101A]

A tax and a fine may be a matter of semantics but the court ruled the penalty to be the former. The only effect the mandate has is to give the insurers a captive audience is neither here nor there as to health care talking up 1/4 of GNP. If there is no oversight on rates like there is at the state level for car liability then a vertical demand slope will do as it will.

Boomers aging; coupled with our reverential treatment of Doctors and modern healthcare guarantee a steep increase and cost for healthcare in this country. It's not HOW we pay for healthcare that is driving the price of healthcare; IT IS THE COST OF THE HEALTHCARE!!! Duh.

If we want healthcare to cost less, is has to COST LESS.

Rationing, Competition or Price Controls. Pick one, or a combination thereof.

[boutons_deux]

Rationing, Competition or Price Controls. Pick one, or a combination thereof.

a public health insurance plan, paid with income (earned and unearned) taxes is the best competition against the for-profit health insurance cartel.

Salaried (not fee-for-service) govt employed doctors, hospitals is the best competition for greedy, gouging fee-for-service doctors, doctors.

neither will happen. the entrenched for-profit health care are too strong (they own legislators, operate govt to their benefit) to allow any policies that would reduce their wealth.

[101A]

a public health insurance plan, paid with income (earned and unearned) taxes is the best competition against the for-profit health insurance cartel.

Salaried (not fee-for-service) govt employed doctors, hospitals is the best competition for greedy, gouging fee-for-service doctors, doctors.

neither will happen. the entrenched for-profit health care are too strong (they own legislators, operate govt to their benefit) to allow any policies that would reduce their wealth.

I highly doubt the government could compete on an absolute cost basis with private doctors or insurance companies. Sure, they could set their cost lower; but he overall cost to society would not decrease. Just look at UPS and Fed Ex vs. the postal service.

The items that are the MOST cost effective on an absolute basis are those where private companies are competing with each other in a cutthroat marketplace. Right now, healthcare dollars are virtually unlimited; doctors/hospitals DON'T WORRY about what they charge for something; no one ever asks, and it always gets paid. I can't think of any other service I purchase where that is the case. I don't just go into my auto shop, pay a copay, and NO MATTER what happens, I am only out 50 bucks. Oil Change? 50- bucks. New Transmission - $50. How many transmissions would get replaced if we had copays for such things?

[ElNono]

Rationing, Competition or Price Controls. Pick one, or a combination thereof.

I'll take C for $100, Alex! :lol

Good to see you 101A.

[DarrinS]

Lol

http://twitter.com/BarackObama/statuses/218527805934280705

[ChumpDumper]

Congratulations! This is a start. The road to recovery is a rough one. You are a very emotional person and have a big heart. It takes a big person to admit they are wrong and even a bigger person to do something about it. Walker still being the governor doesn't matter. People are wrong all the time. It's what they do after is what is the real problem. Making fun of Yoni is not a healthy thing for you to do. Take chump for instance. That man is in here day and night making noise, causing problems and accusing people of all sorts of hurtful damaging things. He is not a happy person. No one can be happy conducting themselves in that sort of behavior. It's a defense mechanism for something negative that has happened in his life. This thread I'm being accused of being a time bomb that could go out and kill people. He has terrible sleeping patterns and when I mentioned that he accused me of stalking him! You don't want to end up like him. Bitter and full of hate. I still have hope for him and will continue to pray for him. You can stop this foolishness if you want and today was a start. Way to go. Tell yoni to keep on posting and his opinion counts. God blessWho do you plan to kill first?

Will God tell you where to start?

Ron bless.

[MannyIsGod]

Congratulations! This is a start. The road to recovery is a rough one. You are a very emotional person and have a big heart. It takes a big person to admit they are wrong and even a bigger person to do something about it. Walker still being the governor doesn't matter. People are wrong all the time. It's what they do after is what is the real problem. Making fun of Yoni is not a healthy thing for you to do. Take chump for instance. That man is in here day and night making noise, causing problems and accusing people of all sorts of hurtful damaging things. He is not a happy person. No one can be happy conducting themselves in that sort of behavior. It's a defense mechanism for something negative that has happened in his life. This thread I'm being accused of being a time bomb that could go out and kill people. He has terrible sleeping patterns and when I mentioned that he accused me of stalking him! You don't want to end up like him. Bitter and full of hate. I still have hope for him and will continue to pray for him. You can stop this foolishness if you want and today was a start. Way to go. Tell yoni to keep on posting and his opinion counts. God bless


Lol thinking i was actually wrong and missing sarcasm

[George Gervin's Afro]

Congratulations! This is a start. The road to recovery is a rough one. You are a very emotional person and have a big heart. It takes a big person to admit they are wrong and even a bigger person to do something about it. Walker still being the governor doesn't matter. People are wrong all the time. It's what they do after is what is the real problem. Making fun of Yoni is not a healthy thing for you to do. Take chump for instance. That man is in here day and night making noise, causing problems and accusing people of all sorts of hurtful damaging things. He is not a happy person. No one can be happy conducting themselves in that sort of behavior. It's a defense mechanism for something negative that has happened in his life. This thread I'm being accused of being a time bomb that could go out and kill people. He has terrible sleeping patterns and when I mentioned that he accused me of stalking him! You don't want to end up like him. Bitter and full of hate. I still have hope for him and will continue to pray for him. You can stop this foolishness if you want and today was a start. Way to go. Tell yoni to keep on posting and his opinion counts. God bless

I don't think you're dangerous.. I just think you are an idiot..


jon hess

[jack sommerset]

we already pay for other people's healthcare ..you do realize that..right?

Not even close to the amount we will be paying if this health care bill is not repealed. What a silly question you ask. Completely disingenuous and the weakest attempt to avoid the problem this law causes. My brother, you of all people throughout the history of mankind should never call someone a name like "idiot" or challenge someone's intelligents. Understandably you may not understand this advice, all things considering. You're special. Try to treat people with respect. Again, your sig tells me you have a good soul. I'm sure of that. God bless

[ElNono]

Not even close to the amount we will be paying if this health care bill is not repealed.

How much are we going to pay, jack? Ninth commandment, jack...

[jack sommerset]

How much are we going to pay, jack? Ninth commandment, jack...

Trillions. We're not done adding the taxes up yet, brother. God bless

[jack sommerset]

Lol thinking i was actually wrong and missing sarcasm

I'm not wrong. You're in denial or putting up a old front to save face with your buddies. I will pray for you. God bless

[ChumpDumper]

Trillions. We're not done adding the taxes up yet, brother. God blessYou shouldn't lie.

Ron bless.

[CosmicCowboy]

Jacks right. It's going to cost a lot more than the CBO projections. Nobody knows how much. They only counted the ones that currently didn't have health insurance.

The second this shit goes into effect I'm dropping the health insurance I currently pay on my employees and letting Obamacare pay for it. It's the smart thing to do.

I'd like to thank you blue teamers in advance for the extra 50K a year I will put in my pocket after I buy insurance for myself and my wife.

[ElNono]

The second this shit goes into effect I'm dropping the health insurance I currently pay on my employees

That would be a welcome development, IMO. Health insurance should've never been tied with employment to begin with. :tu

[MannyIsGod]

I'm not wrong. You're in denial or putting up a old front to save face with your buddies. I will pray for you. God bless

An yet, threads that are easily searchable have yet to be shown where I said anything different than what I linked. I've been wrong plenty of times before but I'm not wrong here. Your theory is stupid as no one saves faces by not admitting when they are obviously wrong. You GAIN face by being able to admit when you're wrong.

You on the other hand, are too lazy to back up your bullshit.

[jack sommerset]

An yet, threads that are easily searchable have yet to be shown where I said anything different than what I linked. I've been wrong plenty of times before but I'm not wrong here. Your theory is stupid as no one saves faces by not admitting when they are obviously wrong. You GAIN face by being able to admit when you're wrong.

You on the other hand, are too lazy to back up your bullshit.

My brother, it's not important. You know what you said. I'll leave it at that. God bless

[Wild Cobra Kai]

Jacks right. It's going to cost a lot more than the CBO projections. Nobody knows how much. They only counted the ones that currently didn't have health insurance.

The second this shit goes into effect I'm dropping the health insurance I currently pay on my employees and letting Obamacare pay for it. It's the smart thing to do.

I'd like to thank you blue teamers in advance for the extra 50K a year I will put in my pocket after I buy insurance for myself and my wife.

You'd be throwing them under the bus, since obstructionist extraordinaire Perry and the rest of the TX yahoos failed to set up an exchange in our fair state.

[PublicOption]

with holding or distorting information leads to the inability to reform.

think about it.