Do you younger guys agree with this article?

[vy65]

You are the one that said that the notion of evil did not exist in the presocratic world. It did as made very cear by all the bullshit rules that pythagoreans had.

They had a notion of the beautiful in shapes and considered distortions to be abhorrent.

Your premise was wrong and quite frankly we do not know very much about the Bacchans as they were the plebs and did not write very much however you could claim that there depiction of the titans as destroyers could be viewed as an evil entity.

Thales.

Like I said ... pics or it didn't happen.

[vy65]

Crotchety.

Just because you dislike the attention doesn't make me ill-natured or peevish. On the contrary, I'm in a great mood. :toast

Awesome!

[vy65]

You're butthurt. That is so cute. Ad hominem. If you are a lawyer then you know what it makes a knowledgeable judge think of your position.

The problem with Nietzsche is that he set out a order in which there were elites but at no point described how that power was to manifest itself. that was the whole point of will to power as that was how it was to manifest.

He went mad forwhatever reasons o quit flushing out his philosophy. However without that justification for being in said spot of power its hard to justify having it. He clearly wanted to within his framework and never could.

As such using him to justify being an asshole is pretty weak.

Why would I be butthurt?

You're also wrong. Power manifests itself as life because life is power. He wrote pretty extensively on this point.

Lol critical thinking.

[vy65]

What he needs to do is start listing his assests and I will tell him if he has more moeny than me. He is just lashing out like an angry little boy now.

I never said my making more than you was the only reason why you're no better than a shrivled sack of goat testicles. I said it was one of many reasons . . .

lol butthurt

lol critical thinking

[FuzzyLumpkins]

No, you missed my point. Neither of you have assets worth as much as Paris Hilton, so you both should feel ashamed you aren't as good as her.

Lol, i know that. i was trying to bait him into being even more of a jackass.

[greyforest]

I can understand being exceptions to the rule (or the exception being created by being intellectually lazy).

But the rule, by and large, is that we rationally choose to do what we do or don't do. Whereas it has everything to do with rational thinking, and little with instincts.

That rational thinking has evolved over time, has gotten sprinkled with different moral and idealistic angles, etc. is certainly not in dispute here.

This is pretty much the only point you make which I take issue with...

I would definitely not say that by and large most decisions made by humans are rational. I would argue that a huge proportion of human behavior is dictated by instinct. There are parts of your brain which are not human. Emotion, sexual attraction, instincts - these are all from a more ancient part of the human nervous system. None of these truly under control - they are all automatic; reflexive to the situation they are in, and they play a large part in determining cognitive behavior.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Why would I be butthurt?

You're also wrong. Power manifests itself as life because life is power. He wrote pretty extensively on this point.

Lol critical thinking.

IE it is inherent within the being. I said will to power. You can laugh but some critical thining would have helped.

The bottomline in all of this is capital is not inherent within the human existence and as such is not the basis of power in his philosophy.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

This is much more succinct than I could ever do:



http://records.viu.ca/~johnstoi/nietzsche/tragedy_all.htm



No goal posts were ever shifted. I'm engaging in a little amateur psychology here. A man rapes a woman principally to exert power over her. The act is animated by the man's own powerlessness - he rapes in order to exert something he doesn't have - power over the woman. It's a desperate act designed to hide the man's own impotence. Basically, rape occurs because a man resents a woman and also resents his own impotence. That's pretty bad in the Nietzschean world-view.



Part of this is dealt with in that huge block quote.

You might be right as to why morality arises in the first place. But that's not really what we're talking about.

The point to recognizing that mentality is to emulate it on your own terms - to become powerful yourself. If you're getting eaten, then you should do something about it.

As for the last bit, if you don't agree, you don't agree. But I think the caveman's reaction was to beat the shit out of the guy with more food and steal it - not sit around and call him evil.




This is answered above.

That not Nietzche you quoted and certainly not the birth of tragedy.

[vy65]

IE it is inherent within the being. I said will to power. You can laugh but some critical thining would have helped.

So what?


The bottomline in all of this is capital is not inherent within the human existence and as such is not the basis of power in his philosophy.

So what and why?

[vy65]

Yo Fuzz, did you click on da link my ninja?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

So what?



So what and why?

You want me to put it syllogisms so you can be spoonfed it? You're becoming pretty boring. It was your assertion that it was int ehf irst place.

You have no basis. Those questions are more apt as introspection on your part.

[vy65]

You want me to put it syllogisms so you can be spoonfed it? You're becoming pretty boring. It was your assertion that it was int ehf irst place.

You have no basis. Those questions are more apt as introspection on your part.

So you can't answer. Again.

Thanks!

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Thales.

Like I said ... pics or it didn't happen.

I am going to guess that you got your education at a catholic school because this notion that plato originated the idea of good and beauty is straight catholicism.

I dont really care.

Pythagoras predated him and his proclivities are well documented. If you want to belabor this notion of burden of proof then go right ahead. Anyone else reading it knows whats what.

[vy65]

lol catholic school

lol boring

lol critical thought

[FuzzyLumpkins]

So you can't answer. Again.

Thanks!

Answer what? Woohoo dissembling is fun too.

[ElNono]

This is pretty much the only point you make which I take issue with...

I would definitely not say that by and large most decisions made by humans are rational. I would argue that a huge proportion of human behavior is dictated by instinct. There are parts of your brain which are not human. Emotion, sexual attraction, instincts - these are all from a more ancient part of the human nervous system. The only bit which makes a human is the cerebral cortex. It can stifle mammalian instincts, but not always.

Look at everyday life. Every moment we live is largely governed by rational thinking. Examples: Are you hungry? You hop into a vehicle, you respect driving rules, you respect other people on the road, you pay for your food with your hard earned money, you drive back, you eat your meal. Need to take a dump? You go to the bathroom, you put down the toilet seat, you do your thing, you wipe, you wash your hands, then you go back to posting in Spurstalk/Facebook.

Instinctive reactions on humans have, for the most part, been constrained to time sensitive or highly emotional moments. Avoiding a car crash. A mother protecting a child during a fire, etc.

[greyforest]

Every moment we live is largely governed by instinctive thinking. Why do people take prescription/psychoactive/recreational drugs? Why do people talk about sex every day? Why are there people shitting all over each other in this thread to bolster their self-esteems?

Instincts!

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Every moment we live is largely governed by instinctive thinking. Why do people take prescription/psychoactive/recreational drugs? Why do people talk about sex every day? Why are there people shitting all over each other in this thread to bolster their self-esteems?

Instincts!

The two are not mutually exclusive. I think it is higher thinking to be able to think and act rationally considering your instincts. I can do it. other people not being able to in my view is not an excuse.

[CuckingFunt]

I'm going to go with LnGrrrR's take on rape. Just because our society view rapists as these fundamentally flawed and weak individuals that has not been the case historically. Take our native american culture for instance. Rape was just a way of life when one tribe won a battle over the other tribe. The winners raped and enslaved the losers women. The strongest in the tribe were the biggest rapists.

Native American cultures. Plural. And I'm not so sure that such practices were common enough that they can/should be attributed as a generalization.

That said, the biggest (most accomplished? odd thing to measure) rapists may have been the strongest in the tribe for reasons other than their rapey-ness being an admirable quality. Could be that the people who would have otherwise challenged their rule/status held back. You know, for fear of being raped.

[DarkReign]

Hes just got mad and decided to play the i am a man because of X income game.

A good game to play.


Thing is that i am very aware of the industry he is talking about and I know he is full of shit. $50k with overtime on a 60 hour work week is about $13 or so an hour.

You arent aware of your ass with both hands firmly under your seat.

You dont even know what we do. You only know what I told you.


He just works them like dogs. He is responding to engineering students that go in asking for a salary of $40k to $50k which is standard and laughs at them. He claims he hires convicts and addicts well I have a notion that has more to do with his pay scale then his benevolence.

$115k for a guy with nothing more than a high school diploma with no engineering-anything in his job description seems like a pretty good lot to me.


$80k for an engineering manager with any experience. Here are the payscales for the listed opening in Chicago which is close to Detroit.

Once again, we arent engineering. My Great Wall of Text said, explicitly, that I run the second plant, not the first. The first plant, your argument would be true, if I knew anything about what peeps are being paid there.

But for my plant, I can hire guys off the street and put $60k in their pocket and all they really need to know before hand is how to add and subtract and spell their name on the job application.

Seems fair to me.


Its fucking laughable.

It sure is seeing as the entire premise of this response is completely inaccurate.

You missed the point. None of the people I employ wear "business casual" to work, except the office manager. Everyone else has work boots on and no desk (well, one desk for the PM and my own, but whatever). ...and since when do Plant Managers engineer anything? Never heard of it, they may sit in on meeting and throw darts, but thats the extent of that little business.

Ive sat in meetings with extremely large Tier1 suppliers and a plant manager is nothing more than a coordinator who oversees and is responsible for hitting production numbers. Scheduling hours, time management, putting the best personnel in the best positions to hit those numbers.

I am in the production business, nothing more. Ive already said "You win", but at least win working under the same conditions as the defeated.

[CosmicCowboy]

Native American cultures. Plural. And I'm not so sure that such practices were common enough that they can/should be attributed as a generalization.

That said, the biggest (most accomplished? odd thing to measure) rapists may have been the strongest in the tribe for reasons other than their rapey-ness being an admirable quality. Could be that the people who would have otherwise challenged their rule/status held back. You know, for fear of being raped.

cultures

And I thought it was an excellent example of human nature unencumbered by modern religious influence.

[DarkReign]

@ greyforest

I dont much give a shit who takes offense to anything I write here, but to be clear, when I wrote that, I was using the 3rd person "you", not you directly.

Take it for what its worth.

[Winehole23]

Awesome!You flatter me with the attention. Thanks for caring enough to pass comment on my temperament in the first place. You were well wide of the mark, but I doubt you meant it insincerely.

[greyforest]

@ greyforest

I dont much give a shit who takes offense to anything I write here, but to be clear, when I wrote that, I was using the 3rd person "you", not you directly.

Take it for what its worth.





I graduated from high school in 1998. I am only mildly older than you (by the sounds of it)

[DarkReign]

I mean what I said, greyforest.

I go off on tangents that, as you can tell from the length of that post, have little to nothing to do with the person being quoted. I am not sorry if you took it personal, I am merely telling you that when I wrote that, you were not in my mind, but more to the the age group being discussed in the OP article.

[CuckingFunt]

Absolutely. I'm merely pointing out that the animalistic, predatory instincts are still with us (some more than others), despite the centuries-old striving to be "civilized". Obviously comparing humans and animals isn't apples-to-apples, but no one should ever discount just how much behavior we have in common.

It is important to remember how much behavior we have in common, yes, with certain animals. For all the talk of humans' inbred, animalistic, predatory instincts, it's not as if we share a single genetic link with lions, or bears, or velociraptors. For that reason, the analogous connection that is often made between man's inhumanity to man and a lion stalking its prey on the savannah is a bit of a stretch, regardless one's take on evolutionary theory.

[ElNono]

Every moment we live is largely governed by instinctive thinking. Why do people take prescription/psychoactive/recreational drugs?

But that's not instinctive at all. Otherwise everybody would be mindlessly taking such drugs. You choose to get high/take a drug. You don't instinctively do.


Why do people talk about sex every day?

Do animals talk about sex every day? A instinctively sexual reaction would be to actually have sex whenever you think about having sex. That's what animals do/try to do.


Why are there people shitting all over each other in this thread to bolster their self-esteems?

Looks like trash talking to me, with some interesting tones here and there.
I'm pretty sure their lives will more or less remain the same after they walk away from the keyboard.

[greyforest]

I'm merely pointing out that the instinct is the impetus for those actions - not that rationality isn't used. Rationality and instincts are always at odds with each other.

I'll use your example. Say a person isn't just hungry, they are starving to death. They will act MUCH less rationally than a hungry person, as instincts grow stronger and mute out rationale.

People are highly variable as to what their threshold is. Some are much more likely to act upon instincts than others.

[DarkReign]

...and to put a bow on this, for me, I dont much give a rat's ass who agrees or disagrees with me.

That I spent that 15mins of my downtime writing my story meant only to shed light on the excuse of these particular college grads. That someone who never went to college, and if they had would not have wasted my time on a Poetry, English or Environmental Sciences degree, can do something with their lot in life instead of wax poetic about how it used to be, how things arent fair, how the world has changed.

Because it has changed, for the worse, no doubt. I agree with the article that our generation, mostly, will be the first to have it worse than their parents. I am not contending that notion.

But whining and pointing out the obvious flaws in the preceding generation(s) to somehow "make it ok" that you wasted your life in college and therefore cant do anything with a useless degree seems...well, ignorant.

Poetry degrees are fine for those individuals who have no intention of using the degree for a monetary career. You dont study poetry for money, you write it, which you dont need a degree for, and even then, good fucking luck.

I listen to whining adults a lot, after a while, you grow immune to the complaints as valid. Same shit youve heard your whole life, life isnt fair, it never was and it never will be. To lament that very basic fact into your 20s and beyond seems childish and immature.

[CuckingFunt]

I'm merely pointing out that the instinct is the impetus for those actions - not that rationality isn't used. Rationality and instincts are always at odds with each other.

I'll use your example. Say a person isn't just hungry, they are starving to death. They will act MUCH less rationally than a hungry person, as instincts grow stronger and mute out rationale.

Not sure that's how it works, though. I would imagine that desperate circumstances change the way we rationalize, rather than stopping us from doing it at all. Instinct and self-preservation kick in and change our decision making process, sure, but a decision is still made. There's a point before one steals a loaf of bread, for example, where they decide that stealing food is a rational course of action based on their starvation.

Could be an issue of semantics, though, because I would agree if you'd said that certain instincts get in the way of ethics and morality.

[greyforest]

People are even graduating with science and engineering degrees and cannot find jobs worth a damn, because the economy is the worst it has been since the great depression.

It's not childish and immature to complain about the people who fucked up my entire generation's future. It's necessary, as there is injustice. Was there an epidemic of 20-year-old graduates complaining about the economy in 1998? No?

Maybe, just maybe, their situation is different from yours. Maybe you could even find some charts and graphs which explain quite clearly why that is.

[MannyIsGod]

...and to put a bow on this, for me, I dont much give a rat's ass who agrees or disagrees with me.

That I spent that 15mins of my downtime writing my story meant only to shed light on the excuse of these particular college grads. That someone who never went to college, and if they had would not have wasted my time on a Poetry, English or Environmental Sciences degree, can do something with their lot in life instead of wax poetic about how it used to be, how things arent fair, how the world has changed.

Because it has changed, for the worse, no doubt. I agree with the article that our generation, mostly, will be the first to have it worse than their parents. I am not contending that notion.

But whining and pointing out the obvious flaws in the preceding generation(s) to somehow "make it ok" that you wasted your life in college and therefore cant do anything with a useless degree seems...well, ignorant.

Poetry degrees are fine for those individuals who have no intention of using the degree for a monetary career. You dont study poetry for money, you write it, which you dont need a degree for, and even then, good fucking luck.

I listen to whining adults a lot, after a while, you grow immune to the complaints as valid. Same shit youve heard your whole life, life isnt fair, it never was and it never will be. To lament that very basic fact into your 20s and beyond seems childish and immature.

Dude, you seriously missed the point of the article so bad its not even funny. I completely disagree with the point that people are somehow supposed to get over the fact that shit sucks to begin with, but the article wasn't a 7 page circle jerk saying "woe us" the way you make it out to be. Its such a ridiculous position for you to sit here and tell people who are showing how they've gotten over it, to get over it.

At this point you really should just go back and reread it or just stop commenting out of ignorance. I don't always agree with you DR and I generally like you, but to listen to you whine about others whining (which isn't even whining) is fairly disappointing.

[LnGrrrR]

The practitioners of FGM certainly don't think that they're acting immorally. In fact, they think quite the opposite. Are they sociopaths?

Would you like to prove that assertion before I take that at face value?

[MannyIsGod]

Like I don't even understand what your point is, DR. Are these people just supposed to ignore what has occurred in their life? You act as if the discussion about how our society is best run and the implications of the actions of prior generations on subsequent generations isn't allowed to happen because you're not getting on with life. The majority of my generation is dealing with the shit sandwich that the baby boomers laid at our feet because we have no other choice but I fail to understand how addressing the issues at hand and how we got here is somehow wrong or wasteful. On the contrary its downright necessary.

[ElNono]

I'm merely pointing out that the instinct is the impetus for those actions - not that rationality isn't used. Rationality and instincts are always at odds with each other.

I'll use your example. Say a person isn't just hungry, they are starving to death. They will act MUCH less rationally than a hungry person, as instincts grow stronger and mute out rationale.

People are highly variable as to what their threshold is. Some are much more likely to act upon instincts than others.

But that's exactly why I said "Instinctive reactions on humans have, for the most part, been constrained to time sensitive or highly emotional moments."

If you're starving and time is running out on you, that's where you leave reason behind.

As I said earlier, there's definitely exceptions to the rule. But that's far from the norm.

[vy65]

Would you like to prove that assertion before I take that at face value?

I gotta do everything around here.

Cultural, religious and social causes


The causes of female genital mutilation include a mix of cultural, religious and social factors within families and communities.

* Where FGM is a social convention, the social pressure to conform to what others do and have been doing is a strong motivation to perpetuate the practice.
* FGM is often considered a necessary part of raising a girl properly, and a way to prepare her for adulthood and marriage.
* FGM is often motivated by beliefs about what is considered proper sexual behaviour, linking procedures to premarital virginity and marital fidelity. FGM is in many communities believed to reduce a woman's libido, and thereby is further believed to help her resist "illicit" sexual acts. When a vaginal opening is covered or narrowed (type 3 above), the fear of pain of opening it, and the fear that this will be found out, is expected to further discourage "illicit" sexual intercourse among women with this type of FGM.
* FGM is associated with cultural ideals of femininity and modesty, which include the notion that girls are “clean” and "beautiful" after removal of body parts that are considered "male" or "unclean".
* Though no religious scripts prescribe the practice, practitioners often believe the practice has religious support.
* Religious leaders take varying positions with regard to FGM: some promote it, some consider it irrelevant to religion, and others contribute to its elimination.
* Local structures of power and authority, such as community leaders, religious leaders, circumcisers, and even some medical personnel can contribute to upholding the practice.
* In most societies, FGM is considered a cultural tradition, which is often used as an argument for its continuation.
* In some societies, recent adoption of the practice is linked to copying the traditions of neighbouring groups. Sometimes it has started as part of a wider religious or traditional revival movement.
* In some societies, FGM is being practised by new groups when they move into areas where the local population practice FGM.

[greyforest]

I guess I'm just saying that it's all shades of gray. A hungry person may act more irrationally than someone who is not, and it doesn't have to be out of seeking food. Check this out:

http://www.neatorama.com/2011/04/12/judge-more-likely-to-grant-parole-after-lunch/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1375959/Judges-likely-favourable-parole-decisions-immediately-having-lunch.html
http://arstechnica.com/science/news/2011/04/if-you-want-parole-get-your-case-heard-right-after-lunch.ars
http://www.miller-mccune.com/legal-affairs/judges-decisions-more-lenient-after-lunch-30179/

And these are judges, purported to be the most logical and least instinctually driven people of all.

[CuckingFunt]

I guess I'm just saying that it's all shades of gray. A hungry person may act more irrationally than someone who is not, and it doesn't have to be out of seeking food. Check this out:

http://www.neatorama.com/2011/04/12/judge-more-likely-to-grant-parole-after-lunch/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1375959/Judges-likely-favourable-parole-decisions-immediately-having-lunch.html
http://arstechnica.com/science/news/2011/04/if-you-want-parole-get-your-case-heard-right-after-lunch.ars
http://www.miller-mccune.com/legal-affairs/judges-decisions-more-lenient-after-lunch-30179/

And these are judges, purported to be the most logical and least instinctually driven people of all.

I think my point is that the above are instances in which hunger has altered their decision making process, not stopped it completely. The idea of "acting irrationally," as you're using it, is not the same thing as ceasing to rationalize.

[greyforest]

I think my point is that the above are instances in which hunger has altered their decision making process

Exactly. This is basically what I was trying to say here, but wasn't clear enough:


Every moment we live is largely governed by instinctive thinking.

Replace "governed" with "altered by". We aren't arguing much other than semantics on this derail.

[ploto]

Was there an epidemic of 20-year-old graduates complaining about the economy in 1998? No?

Try 1982.

[DarrinS]

Like I don't even understand what your point is, DR. Are these people just supposed to ignore what has occurred in their life? You act as if the discussion about how our society is best run and the implications of the actions of prior generations on subsequent generations isn't allowed to happen because you're not getting on with life. The majority of my generation is dealing with the shit sandwich that the baby boomers laid at our feet because we have no other choice but I fail to understand how addressing the issues at hand and how we got here is somehow wrong or wasteful. On the contrary its downright necessary.


Do you think the economic downturn hurt only your generation? I know a lot of young people are stressing out about their student loans and paying their cell phone bill, but the evil, older generations are worried about losing a giant chunk of their 401k, having a mortgage that is underwater, saving for our own kids' educations, etc. etc. Those of us that have lived through equally shitty times (1970's) know "this too shall pass". Camping out in the financial districts of America doesn't seem like the most creative use of time, IMHO.

[DarrinS]

It's not childish and immature to complain about the people who fucked up my entire generation's future.


Yes

By the way, SS probably won't be there for you either, so be prepared.



It's necessary, as there is injustice. Was there an epidemic of 20-year-old graduates complaining about the economy in 1998? No?

Late 70's - early 80's.

[greyforest]

Try 1982.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_pMscxxELHEg/TID1KZoGONI/AAAAAAAAJPg/aEWZ7qwkuxg/s1600/JobLossesAlignedAug2010.jpg

Try 1929.

[CosmicCowboy]

Yes

By the way, SS probably won't be there for you either, so be prepared.



Late 70's - early 80's.

No shit. I had a wife and new baby and lost my job when the homebuilding industry imploded. Went from a $140,000 a year job to a $30,000 a year job and worked my way back up.

[MannyIsGod]

Do you think the economic downturn hurt only your generation? I know a lot of young people are stressing out about their student loans and paying their cell phone bill, but the evil, older generations are worried about losing a giant chunk of their 401k, having a mortgage that is underwater, saving for our own kids' educations, etc. etc. Those of us that have lived through equally shitty times (1970's) know "this too shall pass". Camping out in the financial districts of America doesn't seem like the most creative use of time, IMHO.


YOU shit the bed. The article was about MY generation and having to deal with the mess YOUR generation made. Frankly, your generation deserves to feel the pain more than any other. The article didn't talk much about camping out in financial districts but rather in how my generation is dealing with the shit show yours generated.

Yes, things will get better, but had you read the article you might have noticed that it mentioned lasting effects of starting a career at a time like this.

[CuckingFunt]

More than anything else, I think it's the level of defensiveness in this thread that I find so surprising.

[MannyIsGod]

More than anything else, I think it's the level of defensiveness in this thread that I find surprising.

Really? I don't find it surprising at all.

What makes me sad is how few people can't seem to understand what the point of the journalist was even though its right there in the article's title. Somehow many here see this as some kind of pity party through by an entitled self centered generation which is so ironic considering the article's contents.

[DarrinS]

YOU shit the bed. The article was about MY generation and having to deal with the mess YOUR generation made. Frankly, your generation deserves to feel the pain more than any other. The article didn't talk much about camping out in financial districts but rather in how my generation is dealing with the shit show yours generated.

Yes, things will get better, but had you read the article you might have noticed that it mentioned lasting effects of starting a career at a time like this.


I'm an X-er, not a boomer.

[Borat Sagyidev]

Do you think the economic downturn hurt only your generation? I know a lot of young people are stressing out about their student loans and paying their cell phone bill, but the evil, older generations are worried about losing a giant chunk of their 401k, having a mortgage that is underwater, saving for our own kids' educations, etc. etc. Those of us that have lived through equally shitty times (1970's) know "this too shall pass". Camping out in the financial districts of America doesn't seem like the most creative use of time, IMHO.

The shitty times of the 70's game, high gas prices slow spending and all. What happened right after it? Back to square one, V8s from GM that fell apart at 40k miles and even more cheap plastic crap made overseas.

That older generation has significant voting power and economic might for quite a while now too. They worry about their 401k, retirement and mortgage, but haven't done much to correct it as long as the same some crumbs along the way. And any blame is usually directed at "them youngins or illegal imimigrants"

The prime people paying for that nice retirement.

[MannyIsGod]

I'm an X-er, not a boomer.

You're an early Xer at best if you were of working age in the early 80s. I understand your reluctance to be grouped with the boomer generation, though.

[MannyIsGod]

That’s what we’re doing when we decide that we can be okay with having more unpredictable careers and more modest lifestyles, if that’s what’s in store: Even as we hold out hope that something will reverse the trajectory, we are managing our decline, we are making do.

[DarrinS]

You're an early Xer at best if you were of working age in the early 80s. I understand your reluctance to be grouped with the boomer generation, though.


I was born in 1969. I didn't start working until the mid-80's. Still, I was never "above" taking so-called "shitty jobs" when I needed them. I've had hard times myself, but it has never even occured to me to blame another group of people for my problems.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Do you think the economic downturn hurt only your generation? I know a lot of young people are stressing out about their student loans and paying their cell phone bill, but the evil, older generations are worried about losing a giant chunk of their 401k, having a mortgage that is underwater, saving for our own kids' educations, etc. etc. Those of us that have lived through equally shitty times (1970's) know "this too shall pass". Camping out in the financial districts of America doesn't seem like the most creative use of time, IMHO.

No bit i do definitely believe that the top is trying to pass on blame elsewhere. It manifests itself by requiring the young who require health care the least to pay for those that need it most in this health care bill in the condescending shit you see in industry constantly.

i personally have made it a point NOT to deal with others in that nature and i certainly put little stock in seniority. Merit is merit is merit.

The funny thing is that in DR's story the person that gave him his shot was an 18 year old. As you know very well, the rank and file of American management would have laughed at the prospect of someone of his background getting the shot to take a job he was clearly not qualified for much less a shot to run the plant.

Its clear that you have chosen the sycophant routine. So be it.

[greyforest]

Those of us that have lived through equally shitty times (1970's)

This is another problem - people who think our current recession is equivalent to the ones they endured growing up.

Unless you graduated in 1929 you cannot empathize with my generation. We have more of a right to complain than any generation but that one.

[ElNono]

Replace "governed" with "altered by". We aren't arguing much other than semantics on this derail.

I think there are extenuating circumstances where that does indeed happen, but they are indeed extenuating circumstances (highly charged emotional moments, severe time constrains, etc). I don't see those as occurring often to the vast majority of people though. They're indeed exceptions to the rule. (IMO anyways).

[DarrinS]

This is another problem - people who think our current recession is equivalent to the ones they endured growing up.

Unless you graduated in 1929 you cannot empathize with my generation. We have more of a right to complain than any generation but that one.


I see.

[MannyIsGod]

I was born in 1969. I didn't start working until the mid-80's. Still, I was never "above" taking so-called "shitty jobs" when I needed them. I've had hard times myself, but it has never even occured to me to blame another group of people for my problems.


The morning before we met, Desi’s motorcycle had broken down. If his truck goes next, he won’t have the money to fix it. “A little bit of bad luck, and things can unravel pretty quickly,” he said. But Desi wanted to sell me on the merits of constrained circumstances, not tick off tales of woe. He is still delivering diapers, but he’s now got another job as a woodworker-slash-lacquerer. He finds a satisfaction in the craft that eluded Sam, my high school’s former can’t-miss kid, during his woodworking interregnum.
Remember how most Americans think this generation will be worse off than the one that preceded it? This generation doesn’t agree. A plurality of young people still think they’ll do better than their parents. Our optimism is surprisingly durable. A large-scale Pew study published in 2010 showed that about 90 percent of us either say that we currently have enough money or will eventually meet our long-term financial goals—we’re more hopeful on that front, in fact, than we were before the recession.

Yeah, the economic crap the previous generations left us wasn't their fault. Why should any of the blame be placed on their shoulders? Own it Darrin, because its yours. Don't take that to mean its going to stop us. You don't see the young people in this forum laying down and giving up, do you? We'll forge ahead because we'll deal with whatever comes down the pipe but that doesn't change that fact that you and your parents truly did a terrible job of setting the stage.

[greyforest]

I see.
We do! We got fucked over more than any of you. What do you think this thread's OP was about?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

People are even graduating with science and engineering degrees and cannot find jobs worth a damn, because the economy is the worst it has been since the great depression.


People are even graduating with science and engineering degrees and cannot find jobs worth a damn, because the economy is the worst it has been since the great depression.


People are even graduating with science and engineering degrees and cannot find jobs worth a damn, because the economy is the worst it has been since the great depression.


People are even graduating with science and engineering degrees and cannot find jobs worth a damn, because the economy is the worst it has been since the great depression.

This bear repeating over and over again. I know that its fun to point to the poetry degrees as if they should be deemed unemployable but I know so many people with engineering degrees that are going back to school because its either that work for nothing or move to western australia.

[CuckingFunt]

Really? I don't find it surprising at all.

What makes me sad is how few people can't seem to understand what the point of the journalist was even though its right there in the article's title. Somehow many here see this as some kind of pity party through by an entitled self centered generation which is so ironic considering the article's contents.

I often tend to find defensiveness a surprising reaction, so... grain of salt, and all.

But I think my surprise is based on the same thing that makes you sad. Just as the article was clearly NOT a self centered pity party, neither did it take the position that this generation is the first ever that's had to face hardships or that the baby boomers, on an individual level, are evil for wanting to own homes. For that reason, the personal anecdotes about decades old salary cuts and the like take on a "walked 12 miles in the snow" quality that seems wholly out of context.

[CosmicCowboy]

This is another problem - people who think our current recession is equivalent to the ones they endured growing up.

Unless you graduated in 1929 you cannot empathize with my generation. We have more of a right to complain than any generation but that one.

http://prettynameless.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/2ViolinsJPG1.jpg

[greyforest]

http://prettynameless.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/2ViolinsJPG1.jpg

You found the original article and posted it. What the fuck do you think that article is about?

[CosmicCowboy]

I often tend to find defensiveness a surprising reaction, so... grain of salt, and all.

But I think my surprise is based on the same thing that makes you sad. Just as the article was clearly NOT a self centered pity party, neither did it take the position that this generation is the first ever that's had to face hardships or that the baby boomers, on an individual level, are evil for wanting to own homes. For that reason, the personal anecdotes about decades old salary cuts and the like take on a "walked 12 miles in the snow" quality that seems wholly out of context.

It wasn't the article at all. I read the article front to back in the magazine, thought it raised some interesting points, and found it on the net and posted it in here.

The responses were more in response to the whiney posters her at spurstalk.

[DarrinS]

We do! We got fucked over more than any of you. What do you think this thread's OP was about?


Hmmm

[ElNono]

By the way, SS probably won't be there for you either, so be prepared.

What does 'be prepared' supposed to mean? :lol

[MannyIsGod]

You want to know who's whining?

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5443403&postcount=28

[DarrinS]

What does 'be prepared' supposed to mean? :lol

Better damn well save for your own retirement.

Well, unless you are public servant with a pension.

[CosmicCowboy]

You want to know who's whining?

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5443403&postcount=28

That's not whining. :lol

[FuzzyLumpkins]

People are even graduating with science and engineering degrees and cannot find jobs worth a damn, because the economy is the worst it has been since the great depression.


People are even graduating with science and engineering degrees and cannot find jobs worth a damn, because the economy is the worst it has been since the great depression.


People are even graduating with science and engineering degrees and cannot find jobs worth a damn, because the economy is the worst it has been since the great depression.


People are even graduating with science and engineering degrees and cannot find jobs worth a damn, because the economy is the worst it has been since the great depression.

This bear repeating over and over again. I know that its fun to point to the poetry degrees as if they should be deemed unemployable but I know so many people with engineering degrees that are going back to school because its either that work for nothing or move to western australia.

[CosmicCowboy]

This bear repeating over and over again. I know that its fun to point to the poetry degrees as if they should be deemed unemployable but I know so many people with engineering degrees that are going back to school because its either that work for nothing or move to western australia.

Oh, they will probably have a hard time making big bucks if they want to stay in San Antonio but engineers are still in big demand if they are willing to relocate. They could probably go to work for GE tomorrow.

[ElNono]

Better damn well save for your own retirement.

Well, unless you are public servant with a pension.

With what money from what job?

You're basically telling him to 'be prepared' to get screwed over the money he might be putting into SS if he has a job at all. That's the advice?

[ElNono]

Oh, they will probably have a hard time making big bucks if they want to stay in San Antonio but engineers are still in big demand if they are willing to relocate. They could probably go to work for GE tomorrow.

That's if GE doesn't keep moving their divisions to China... you know like their X-Ray division.

[DarrinS]

This bear repeating over and over again. I know that its fun to point to the poetry degrees as if they should be deemed unemployable but I know so many people with engineering degrees that are going back to school because its either that work for nothing or move to western australia.


Engineers are a dime a dozen. I should know.

But, by all means, go back to school. Lol.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Oh, they will probably have a hard time making big bucks if they want to stay in San Antonio but engineers are still in big demand if they are willing to relocate. They could probably go to work for GE tomorrow.

Who said they were from San Antonio? I know of one guy in that circumstance that lives there now.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Engineers are a dime a dozen. I should know.

But, by all means, go back to school. Lol.

Maybe those of your caliber. You are the one that had to go and learn a technicians job to get employment when the economy was good. Speak for yourself.

[DarrinS]

Maybe those of your caliber. You are the one that had to go and learn a technicians job to get employment when the economy was good. Speak for yourself.

I'm not a technician.

[MannyIsGod]

If you interview as poorly as you read...well...

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I'm not a technician.

You had to learn compiler code to get a job. You told us about it. i don't really care what you call yourself.

[Doug Whiner]

The responses were more in response to the whiney posters her at spurstalk.

You are one of the family.

[Drachen]

Like I don't even understand what your point is, DR. Are these people just supposed to ignore what has occurred in their life? You act as if the discussion about how our society is best run and the implications of the actions of prior generations on subsequent generations isn't allowed to happen because you're not getting on with life. The majority of my generation is dealing with the shit sandwich that the baby boomers laid at our feet because we have no other choice but I fail to understand how addressing the issues at hand and how we got here is somehow wrong or wasteful. On the contrary its downright necessary.

I think his biggest problem is that these kids got all the way through college without formulating a plan a evidenced by poetry degrees. I'll bet that if these kids had marketable degrees and looked like they wanted a job then he probably would have either supported the article or been mute on the subject.

[MannyIsGod]

The biggest issue is that kids didn't know how the real worlds works? Really?

[greyforest]

This bear repeating over and over again. I know that its fun to point to the poetry degrees as if they should be deemed unemployable but I know so many people with engineering degrees that are going back to school because its either that work for nothing or move to western australia.

Guess these stupid ass kids didn't know how the real world works. Should have started a company instead of pursuing undergrad engineering degrees.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

That's not whining. :lol

Actually its not at all. I know others that invested a lot of capital in commercial real estate in 2005 and got their asses handed to them. It seemed a good investment considering trends no doubt.

But debt creates artificial demand. Unfortunately the same type of thing is going on with stocks. Its no coincidence that the market strongly correlates with the amount of debt seeing capital shoved into its market.

The markets have meandered around the whims of the Bundesbank for the past two months. You know that JP Morgan and Goldman Sachs have portfolios containing every share on the major markets. Every single one as do many firms. Makes me wonder how much of American stock is held by Greek, Italian and Spanish banks and firms.

Quite frankly the only benefit the average consumer is going to see out of that bailout is this artificial inflation of the stock market back to preexisting norms. It seems so much of policy is just trying to keep that afloat.

If it does crash again there will be no more artificial demand. Losing 30 points was nothing in 2007. A third of all your shit gone.

[CosmicCowboy]

The biggest issue is that kids didn't know how the real worlds works? Really?

Manny, despite the shit I give you I like you and have always considered you an exception to the general rule. You came from a lower middle class background and came out with a work ethic. I know too many kids of friends of mine that came from middle upper class backgrounds...kids of doctors, professionals, etc. that grew up with all the advantages, driving the cool cars and going to the right schools and got everything they wanted or needed and just never got the connection between all the cool shit they took for granted and their dads dedication to work/income. they are STILL drifting and will never be able to give their kids the advantages they had.

[greyforest]

They are STILL drifting and will never be able to give their kids the advantages they had.

It's almost as if the same opportunity to provide for their kids wasn't there for them like it was for their parents. Maybe there's some graphs or charts which could show this??? Or some anecdotes or articles. Hmm.

[Agloco]

People are even graduating with science and engineering degrees and cannot find jobs worth a damn, because the economy is the worst it has been since the great depression.


This bear repeating over and over again. I know that its fun to point to the poetry degrees as if they should be deemed unemployable but I know so many people with engineering degrees that are going back to school because its either that work for nothing or move to western australia.

This....over and over.

I wonder why more folks aren't pointing this out. Oh yea, because it's easier to make your argument by looking at plainly obvious missteps by young college grads.

I can vouch for this trend. It's quite spooky.

[MannyIsGod]

Manny, despite the shit I give you I like you and have always considered you an exception to the general rule. You came from a lower middle class background and came out with a work ethic. I know too many kids of friends of mine that came from middle upper class backgrounds...kids of doctors, professionals, etc. that grew up with all the advantages, driving the cool cars and going to the right schools and got everything they wanted or needed and just never got the connection between all the cool shit they took for granted and their dads dedication to work/income. they are STILL drifting and will never be able to give their kids the advantages they had.

Means a lot to me, CC. Thank you.

[MannyIsGod]

This....over and over.

I wonder why more folks aren't pointing this out. Oh yea, because it's easier to make your argument by looking at plainly obvious missteps by young college grads.

I can vouch for this trend. It's quite spooky.

Its damn scary but I'll have to take my chances.

[greyforest]

This thread is like deja vu.

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5032496#post5032496

Pretty much nothing has changed since then, except more and more people my age are realizing they have been shafted.

[m>s]

Manny, despite the shit I give you I like you and have always considered you an exception to the general rule. You came from a lower middle class background and came out with a work ethic. I know too many kids of friends of mine that came from middle upper class backgrounds...kids of doctors, professionals, etc. that grew up with all the advantages, driving the cool cars and going to the right schools and got everything they wanted or needed and just never got the connection between all the cool shit they took for granted and their dads dedication to work/income. they are STILL drifting and will never be able to give their kids the advantages they had.
manny is a chink immigrant imho. just because hes dumb it doesn't necessarily mean hes from some lower-class american family, i know some poorass niggas round my hood and they're generally dumb as garnett but the style of dumbness is quite different than manny's tbh. manny sounds just like a professor working at UTA that i know in real life, and he is a chink immigrant

[greyforest]

This thread is like deja vu.

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5032496#post5032496

Pretty much nothing has changed since then, except more and more people my age are realizing they have been shafted.

Hahah. I just can't help but laugh that I outlined all of this article's content MONTHS ago. CosmicCowboy sat there arguing with me in that thread about all the same exact problems he just posted this article about, which he posted as if he had never seen or heard any opinions like it.

[DarrinS]

Its damn scary but I'll have to take my chances.

Bingo

[Agloco]

Its damn scary but I'll have to take my chances.

Well it's not unmanageable provided you're willing relocate, etc etc.

You know, sacrifice more than you already have sacrificed. Where the limits of tolerance lie are, of course, up to each individual graduate. I believe many are close to or over that limit. The physical manifestation: The Occupy Wall Street movement.

The trend is a new one to be quite honest Manny. It pervades all sectors, even healthcare to an appreciable extent. It's a statement when young PhD's in my field are looking for jobs as short as we are on board certified physicists.

This is why (well, one reason at any rate) in my heart of hearts, I truly believe that this economy is a different beast. I also believe that if we don't get serious about fiscal issues in the near term things will get substantially worse, and not just for college grads.

But seriously though, most of the "anti-Wall Street protest" folks keep citing the kids with poetry degrees, etc. What about people like Manny? What about the kids I teach (med students and PhD students alike)? They aren't exactly pursuing useless degrees. I see a growing proportion of them struggling to find a job in supposedly "hot" sectors.

[DarrinS]

It will get better. Of that, I have no doubt. Just sucks when you're in the middle of it.

[clambake]

It will get better. Of that, I have no doubt. Just sucks when you're in the middle of it.

so....the mega-wealthy get a pass?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

It will get better. Of that, I have no doubt. Just sucks when you're in the middle of it.

No what sucks is when we get to relive the crash sputter crash boom crash cycle of the late 19th century or we get to relive the 1930s shit sandwich because of deregulation of laws passed in the early 19th and early twentieth centuries.

And all the while all you want to talk about is poetry degrees and pretensions of all is well.

http://bp0.blogger.com/_5IWl-cAPUIs/RvQI7Pk-NII/AAAAAAAAAJU/UZVjY8kmhHw/s400/All+Is+Well.jpg

[clambake]

the irony is that the mega-wealthy OWS every day.

[greyforest]

It will get better. Of that, I have no doubt.

http://www.bearishnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/total-debt-gdp.jpg

I think you're a bit optimistic. I think it's going to have to get a lot worse.

[LnGrrrR]

This is much more succinct than I could ever do

Really? That's the most succint you can be? I don't think ringing up what Christianity introduced to our concept of morality is necessarily tangent.


No goal posts were ever shifted. I'm engaging in a little amateur psychology here. A man rapes a woman principally to exert power over her. The act is animated by the man's own powerlessness - he rapes in order to exert something he doesn't have - power over the woman. It's a desperate act designed to hide the man's own impotence. Basically, rape occurs because a man resents a woman and also resents his own impotence. That's pretty bad in the Nietzschean world-view.

Pfft. The man obviously does hold power over her, does he not? If he didn't have the power to rape her, then he could not. In your example, does the bird prey on the lamb because it hates the lamb?

Part of this is dealt with in that huge block quote.


The point to recognizing that mentality is to emulate it on your own terms - to become powerful yourself. If you're getting eaten, then you should do something about it.

Right. If you can't find reproduce with a willing female, then you do what you must to reproduce. Per this theory, anyways.


As for the last bit, if you don't agree, you don't agree. But I think the caveman's reaction was to beat the shit out of the guy with more food and steal it - not sit around and call him evil.

That undercuts your earlier argument. If jealousy/fear of the strong isn't what caused people to create the term evil, then what did?

[LnGrrrR]

I'm merely pointing out that the instinct is the impetus for those actions - not that rationality isn't used. Rationality and instincts are always at odds with each other.

I'll use your example. Say a person isn't just hungry, they are starving to death. They will act MUCH less rationally than a hungry person, as instincts grow stronger and mute out rationale.

People are highly variable as to what their threshold is. Some are much more likely to act upon instincts than others.

Greyforest, you're familiar with Maslow's Hierarchy, I'll assume?

When people's basic necessities aren't being met, I think society is slightly more forgiving of them if they transgress the law/moral code.

[LnGrrrR]

Like I don't even understand what your point is, DR. Are these people just supposed to ignore what has occurred in their life? You act as if the discussion about how our society is best run and the implications of the actions of prior generations on subsequent generations isn't allowed to happen because you're not getting on with life. The majority of my generation is dealing with the shit sandwich that the baby boomers laid at our feet because we have no other choice but I fail to understand how addressing the issues at hand and how we got here is somehow wrong or wasteful. On the contrary its downright necessary.

The point of the article seemed to try to draw attention to how our generation is screwed. Sure, there's alot of truth in that. But using a failed poetry writer as your example of the hard-working-but-unfortunate-millenial is pretty dumb.

[LnGrrrR]

I gotta do everything around here.

Cultural, religious and social causes

I would say that FGM is immoral certainly in our culture, given what we know. Now, I don't know about what they know in cultures where they practice it. I would assume they know enough to know it's immoral there, as well.

Then again, many people think male circumcision is immoral too. I don't, but some do and I don't fault them for it.

I'm not sure how you're linking this with the "might makes right" but I'm listening.

[LnGrrrR]

This....over and over.

I wonder why more folks aren't pointing this out. Oh yea, because it's easier to make your argument by looking at plainly obvious missteps by young college grads.

I can vouch for this trend. It's quite spooky.

I think the article would've been much more effective by using a person with an engineering degree as an example.

[Drachen]

I would say that FGM is immoral certainly in our culture, given what we know. Now, I don't know about what they know in cultures where they practice it. I would assume they know enough to know it's immoral there, as well.

Then again, many people think male circumcision is immoral too. I don't, but some do and I don't fault them for it.

I'm not sure how you're linking this with the "might makes right" but I'm listening.

The idea of the immorality of male circumcision is based on the exact same reason as that of FGM. (though wow, what a Freakin tangent)

[LnGrrrR]

The idea of the immorality of male circumcision is based on the exact same reason as that of FGM. (though wow, what a Freakin tangent)

I believe there are some actual medical benefits to male circumcision contra female, but I could be wrong about that.

[Drachen]

I believe there are some actual medical benefits to male circumcision contra female, but I could be wrong about that.

There are both benefits and risks (very small percentage and mostly related to how well you can teach your kid to take a bath), but they have basically the same overall effect (reducing sexual sensitivity).

[LnGrrrR]

There are both benefits and risks (very small percentage and mostly related to how well you can teach your kid to take a bath), but they have basically the same overall effect (reducing sexual sensitivity).

Thanks for the info. Most of the stories I've heard related to female circumcision involved some pretty horrific settings.

[MannyIsGod]

The point of the article seemed to try to draw attention to how our generation is screwed. Sure, there's alot of truth in that. But using a failed poetry writer as your example of the hard-working-but-unfortunate-millenial is pretty dumb.

That is NOT the point of the article. The point of the article is right there in the title.

[MannyIsGod]

In fact, the point of the article is the exact opposite of that; that we are NOT screwed.

[Drachen]

Thanks for the info. Most of the stories I've heard related to female circumcision involved some pretty horrific settings.

Oh, well as far as FGM is concerned, I believe there are greater risks involved, but who knows, that may be due to the setting in which it is done.


I was talking about male circumcision there are both risks and benefits....

[Agloco]

I think the article would've been much more effective by using a person with an engineering degree as an example.

Agreed, but the overall message was one of hope (at least that's what I drew from it). I think in that context the kids who would feel the most hopeless would benefit from having some examples to identify with.


I believe there are some actual medical benefits to male circumcision contra female, but I could be wrong about that.

Mostly hygienic, but yes.......

[LnGrrrR]

In fact, the point of the article is the exact opposite of that; that we are NOT screwed.

I didn't really get that from the article. I got that we ARE screwed compared to earlier generations, but that it's ok, because we're finding ways to cope with less resources/opportunity.

Edit: Manny, read the line RIGHT UNDERNEATH the title:



My screwed, coddled, self-absorbed, mocked, surprisingly resilient generation.

[MannyIsGod]

That's rhetorical use of irony, IMO. Reread the last 2 pages and tell me the author is trying to say we're screwed.

[MannyIsGod]

Lets clarify what you mean by "we're screwed". I take that to be a completely hopeless position. I do think the article makes it a point to show that things are bad to a degree that we've not seen in a long time but definitely not hopeless by any means.

[midnightpulp]

I have no sympathy for kids like the hipster girl with the fucktarded haircut and her "fashion degree, or the dumbass "2deep4U" Street Performer.

One of the important points in the article was how today's younger generation was essentially made into self-absorbed narcissists by parents who told them all throughout their formative years they were "special," "unique," "talented," "creative," and that if they (the children) nurtured and pursued whatever area of interest they were passionate about, they would inevitably be rewarded with success. This led to too many kids chasing pipedreams, getting degrees in "useless fields" like literature, creative writing, art, film theory, etc, with the belief they would someday write the great American novel or be the next Spielberg. After all, their parents told them it would happen if "you just put your mind to it."

I don't blame the Boomers for the false hope and delusions of grandeur they instilled in their children. After being reared themselves by cynical World War II vets raised during the Great Depression, it was only a natural response to fill your child with as much optimism as possible. Nor do I blame the kids for eating up the bullshit they were told by their parents. It simply is what it is. A natural progression of things given the circumstances. Furthermore, the Boomers, who were the first American generation to really build their cultural identity around the artistic, didn't want their kids working the same mind numbing, monotonous factory or office jobs. They wanted their kids to be the rock star, author, filmmaker, professional athlete, and did everything - from reading to their kid while it was still in the womb, to piano lessons at age three, to signing their kid up for every youth league they could find - to try to make it into a reality. But what happened, as the article points out, is the Boomers created a generation with unrealistic expectations and one ill-equipped to handle dog-eat-dog competition and failure. (Disclaimer: I'm only speaking "generally." Obviously, not every 20-35 year old fits the profile, but from my experience, a large majority do. For the record, I'm 31.)

And on a more practical level, one of the major reasons there's a lack of jobs is because most of the domestic manufacturing base moved overseas.

[Agloco]

One of the important points in the article was how today's younger generation was essentially made into self-absorbed narcissists by parents who told them all throughout their formative years they were "special," "unique," "talented," "creative," and that if they (the children) nurtured and pursued whatever area of interest they were passionate about, they would inevitably be rewarded with success. This led to too many kids chasing pipedreams, getting degrees in "useless fields" like literature, creative writing, art, film theory, etc, with the belief they would someday write the great American novel or be the next Spielberg. After all, their parents told them it would happen if "you just put your mind to it."



Much like the rhetoric coming from folks who oppose the movement: "Just look for a job instead of voicing your opinion about your situation. It will all work out just keep trying."

They're getting more of the same shit except this time, the fairies are fresh out of magic job dust.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I have no sympathy for kids like the hipster girl with the fucktarded haircut and her "fashion degree, or the dumbass "2deep4U" Street Performer.

One of the important points in the article was how today's younger generation was essentially made into self-absorbed narcissists by parents who told them all throughout their formative years they were "special," "unique," "talented," "creative," and that if they (the children) nurtured and pursued whatever area of interest they were passionate about, they would inevitably be rewarded with success. This led to too many kids chasing pipedreams, getting degrees in "useless fields" like literature, creative writing, art, film theory, etc, with the belief they would someday write the great American novel or be the next Spielberg. After all, their parents told them it would happen if "you just put your mind to it."

I don't blame the Boomers for the false hope and delusions of grandeur they instilled in their children. After being reared themselves by cynical World War II vets raised during the Great Depression, it was only a natural response to fill your child with as much optimism as possible. Nor do I blame the kids for eating up the bullshit they were told by their parents. It simply is what it is. A natural progression of things given the circumstances. Furthermore, the Boomers, who were the first American generation to really build their cultural identity around the artistic, didn't want their kids working the same mind numbing, monotonous factory or office jobs. They wanted their kids to be the rock star, author, filmmaker, professional athlete, and did everything - from reading to their kid while it was still in the womb, to piano lessons at age three, to signing their kid up for every youth league they could find - to try to make it into a reality. But what happened, as the article points out, is the Boomers created a generation with unrealistic expectations and one ill-equipped to handle dog-eat-dog competition and failure. (Disclaimer: I'm only speaking "generally." Obviously, not every 20-35 year old fits the profile, but from my experience, a large majority do. For the record, I'm 31.)

And on a more practical level, one of the major reasons there's a lack of jobs is because most of the domestic manufacturing base moved overseas.

You're right. By and large they should not have listened to the stupid shit their parents told them.

Oh and to call the WW2 generation cynical when you look at their projects and vision for the future is laughable. Its always from the boomer generation that i hear 'you lose your ideals when you grow up.'

[midnightpulp]

You're right. By and large they should not have listened to the stupid shit their parents told them.

Oh and to call the WW2 generation cynical when you look at their projects and vision for the future is laughable. Its always from the boomer generation that i hear 'you lose your ideals when you grow up.'

Maybe a better word for the mindset of the World War II generation would be "ultra-realistic."

If a 12 year old kid came to his father in 1956 and said, "I'm gonna be the next Mickey Mantle," Pa would've had a long talk with the kid about how that's probably not going to happen.

Now if that same situation happened in 1992, Dad would've replied, "We'll find you the best coach money can buy."

And just because the World War II generation had an optimistic forecast of the future with regards to technology (aside from the threat of nuclear annihilation) doesn't mean their outlook was unrealistic. There's a difference between having realistic optimism and being outright deluded. Also, that was mostly the mentality of scientists and academics. Your average Joe farmer in the Midwest had a much different world view.

The Boomer generation might say that now, but they weren't saying that in 70s and 80s.

[midnightpulp]

Much like the rhetoric coming from folks who oppose the movement: "Just look for a job instead of voicing your opinion about your situation. It will all work out just keep trying."

They're getting more of the same shit except this time, the fairies are fresh out of magic job dust.

Ironic, isn't it?

Anyhow, I think what bothers most people about the article, myself included, is when the complaints are coming from middle/upper class kids who decided to get their degree in something like poetry or creative writing, then mope about how they can't find a job and are 30K in debt with student loans. It comes across as insincere emo posturing instead of a genuine display of hardship. What they didn't understand, or were never told, is that degrees don't mean shit in those industries. It's about your work. A publisher doesn't give a shit about your MFA in Creative Writing.

Now the kids with medical, engineering, and business degrees who can't find a job are the ones who should be felt sorry for. Not the fucksticks who thought by virtue of getting a degree in fashion automatically guarantees you a job with Gucci.

[Agloco]

Ironic, isn't it?

Anyhow, I think what bothers most people about the article, myself included, is when the complaints are coming from middle/upper class kids who decided to get their degree in something like poetry or creative writing, then mope about how they can't find a job and are 30K in debt with student loans. It comes across as insincere emo posturing instead of a genuine display of hardship. What they didn't understand, or were never told, is that degrees don't mean shit in those industries. It's about your work. A publisher doesn't give a shit about your MFA in Creative Writing.

Now the kids with medical, engineering, and business degrees who can't find a job are the ones who should be felt sorry for. Not the fucksticks who thought by virtue of getting a degree in fashion automatically guarantees you a job with Gucci.

:tu

Yes, it's deliciously ironic at that.

[midnightpulp]

http://images.nymag.com/images/2/promotional/11/10/week4/cover111024_250.jpg

Once a-fucking-gain...

Theyre confused?! I am fucking confused by their confusion.

Lol this faggot. I just had to find out who he was. From his website:

"Afterwards, when I hear the inevitable daily “OK, what does it Mean?” I usually first ask them what they think, and sometimes get to hear everybody’s exciting narratives of linearized plots, and then I tell them I’m interested in semiotic collaging, the rearranging of culturally meaning-charged objects, or of breaking down the mediums of social normal. “What are you doing?” is my most commonly asked question, and the one I am still least able to respond in kind to. That is to say, I can Begin, but I must begin by opening a smaller door. I want to reiterate as a prelude that this layer is exclusively concerned with structure and inherencies, and not content.

I have a little suitcase filled with puppets and things with a chalkboard on it and I wear little constumes and write and draw on the chalkboard and create little bio-machinistic scenes with the contents of the case and put it live to a kind of modal soundtrack as I move around.

Is it that I “Do” non-narrative performance puppet shows using a bricolage of garbage objects, broken dolls and animal parts to approximate the false semblance of a miniature novela? Do the little bodies who hang from my hands represent the impossible actions I can never approach, a mimicked reproduction of my own little activities, the Aboriginal Dreaming, a ritualed precaution against “art-criticism”, can their bodies point to my body, or the bodies of the audience? Instead of story, does it fall to mood-ing? Emotional suggestion or representation? It was recently levelled that the action was indeed the evocation of mood-telling, and that it ushered a strange ominous captivity over its space because of that. ”Is that Voodoo? Can you kill those three white people magic?” It is hard to remember that all writing must be neither exhaustive nor a litany of superficial possibilities."

http://enormousface.com/blog/

:cry Capitalism sucks because no one will pay me to do shit that hasn't been relevant in art or media since Marcel DuChamp decided to forego his art and take up chess. :cry

Lol at "semiotic collaging." Wow, you re-contextualize stuff! How fuckin' original! Give this a man a Guggenheim Fellowship post-haste!

[LnGrrrR]

Lets clarify what you mean by "we're screwed". I take that to be a completely hopeless position. I do think the article makes it a point to show that things are bad to a degree that we've not seen in a long time but definitely not hopeless by any means.

Eh, I take "screwed" to mean "much worse in comparison" as well. Not exactly hopeless, but certainly limited in options.

[boutons_deux]

"hopeless" for many years to come, at least for the 99%ers.

For real household income and jobs, 2010s to be yet another Lost Decade, like the Repugs' 2000s.

25% unemployment rate for the 18-25 range

Another million homes foreclosed in 2011. 8+ months inventory of homes. A huge glut of REO kept off the market by the banks.

Repeat as far as anyone can see.

=========

New 2010 census data released Thursday show the wrenching impact of a recession that officially ended in mid-2009. There are missed opportunities and dim prospects for a generation of mostly 20-somethings and 30-somethings coming of age in a prolonged period of joblessness.

"We have a monster jobs problem, and young people are the biggest losers," said Andrew Sum, an economist and director of the Center for Labor Market Studies at Northeastern University. He noted that for recent college graduates getting by on waitressing, bartending and odd jobs, they will have to compete with new graduates for entry-level career positions when the job market does improve.

"Their really high levels of underemployment and unemployment will haunt young people for at least another decade," Sum said.

http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2011/09/22/general-us-census-recession-apos-s-impact_8696311.html

============

But "It's All the 99%ers Fault", NOT the fault of UCA or the 1% Banksters Great (Jobs) Depression

[Borat Sagyidev]

Ironic, isn't it?

Anyhow, I think what bothers most people about the article, myself included, is when the complaints are coming from middle/upper class kids who decided to get their degree in something like poetry or creative writing, then mope about how they can't find a job and are 30K in debt with student loans. It comes across as insincere emo posturing instead of a genuine display of hardship. What they didn't understand, or were never told, is that degrees don't mean shit in those industries. It's about your work. A publisher doesn't give a shit about your MFA in Creative Writing.

Now the kids with medical, engineering, and business degrees who can't find a job are the ones who should be felt sorry for. Not the fucksticks who thought by virtue of getting a degree in fashion automatically guarantees you a job with Gucci.


I think the article would've been much more effective by using a person with an engineering degree as an example.


:tu

Yes, it's deliciously ironic at that.

Yup but for some reason, those fucksticks are the only people the conservatives on this board pay attention to. Those upperclass fuckup kids have it bad and deserve it, no arguing that, but it's not all of their fault. Many of their parents only needed to network themselves a job with no college degree and instilled that entitlement gimmick into them. They now complain about that well deserved C in Art history like it's a court case and then argue to the same bullshit entitlement effect on everything else.

I had a few tours in Afghanistan with the Army + contractor and in between that got educated to the tune of 2 doctorates in Engineering and Physics. But If I decide to do a standard job search at my young age, I'll get the "need more experience" gimmick. Thankfully, I have mastered the art of being an independent contractor at my age.

Most of the decent jobs with family building potential I see require 7-10 years of experience. You won't find many in their 20's and early 30's after college with that much experience

I know several other of my peers in that situation.

[midnightpulp]

Yup but for some reason, those fucksticks are the only people the conservatives on this board pay attention to. Those upperclass fuckup kids have it bad and deserve it, no arguing that, but it's not all of their fault. Many of their parents only needed to network themselves a job with no college degree and instilled that entitlement gimmick into them. They now complain about that well deserved C in Art history like it's a court case and then argue to the same bullshit entitlement effect on everything else.

I had a few tours in Afghanistan with the Army + contractor and in between that got educated to the tune of 2 doctorates in Engineering and Physics. But If I decide to do a standard job search at my young age, I'll get the "need more experience" gimmick. Thankfully, I have mastered the art of being an independent contractor at my age.

Most of the decent jobs with family building potential I see require 7-10 years of experience. You won't find many in their 20's and early 30's after college with that much experience

I know several other of my peers in that situation.

I think it's because people with a "liberal arts" degree typically tend to be the loudest and whiniest voice. People with engineering degrees and the like are less prone to emo outbursts, primarily because their worldview is less idealized than that of their artistic counterpart. Their expectations are grounded in reality for the most part, whereas the creative writing major entertains himself with visions of being the next great novelist. And then when they give up on that dream because they realize it's hard fuckin' work that also requires a near superhuman amount of talent, they scale back their ambitions and look for a job as an editor at some literary magazine, only to find themselves standing in line behind others exactly like them, with the same degree, resume, and talents. Next thing you know, they're occupying Wall Street and lamenting about how there isn't any jobs.

[midnightpulp]

I think it's because people with a "liberal arts" degree typically tend to be the loudest and whiniest voice. People with engineering degrees and the like are less prone to emo outbursts, primarily because their worldview is less idealized than that of their artistic counterpart. Their expectations are grounded in reality for the most part, whereas the creative writing major entertains himself with visions of being the next great novelist. And then when they give up on that dream because they realize it's hard fuckin' work that also requires a near superhuman amount of talent, they scale back their ambitions and look for a job as an editor at some literary magazine, only to find themselves standing in line behind others exactly like them, with the same degree, resume, and talents. Next thing you know, they're occupying Wall Street and lamenting about how there isn't any jobs.

That said, I don't blame these kids for pursuing their passions. Like I said, what irritates people is the whining and the sense of entitlement that betrays reality. A lot of them come out of school with their newly minted diploma and think they're going to hit the ground running, but when they find out the road is littered with hurdle after hurdle and their degree is largely useless in their chosen field, they, as the article stated, "have their worldview kicked in."

It's too bad someone didn't tell them you can learn just as much about the arts being an autodidact as you can in a classroom, with the former being a hell of a lot cheaper. But the "liberal arts degree" industry is big business, advertising to these kids that a degree is the essential component needed if they want to achieve any kind of success.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I think it's because people with a "liberal arts" degree typically tend to be the loudest and whiniest voice. People with engineering degrees and the like are less prone to emo outbursts, primarily because their worldview is less idealized than that of their artistic counterpart. Their expectations are grounded in reality for the most part, whereas the creative writing major entertains himself with visions of being the next great novelist.

Its called writing is a liberal art.

Whoever would have thunk that a writer for New York Magazine had a liberal arts degree or a friend with a poetry degree? She apparently is able to create fairly creative provocative articles as evidenced by 375 posts and counting.

Who is to say that her friend cannot write good poetry? One good thing about a glut of liberal arts degrees is that there is a good chance some of them might be good. There is value in pursuits of philosophy, poetry, history and psychology.

The issue is that we have been in a period of recession and slow growth for a decade and its starting to marginalize certain segments of the population. Their 25% unemployment rate speaks to their involvement in the decision making process.

You see people of that age group coming to the conclusion that they are not part of the problem. You see the epiphany time and time again. I am just waiting for the provisions concerning compulsory health care coverage and the reaction to that.

Like I keep saying. Things are going to change.

[midnightpulp]

Its called writing is a liberal art.

Whoever would have thunk that a writer for New York Magazine had a liberal arts degree or a friend with a poetry degree? She apparently is able to create fairly creative provocative articles as evidenced by 375 posts and counting.

Who is to say that her friend cannot write good poetry? One good thing about a glut of liberal arts degrees is that there is a good chance some of them might be good. There is value in pursuits of philosophy, poetry, history and psychology.

The issue is that we have been in a period of recession and slow growth for a decade and its starting to marginalize certain segments of the population. Their 25% unemployment rate speaks to their involvement in the decision making process.

You see people of that age group coming to the conclusion that they are not part of the problem. You see the epiphany time and time again. I am just waiting for the provisions concerning compulsory health care coverage and the reaction to that.

Like I keep saying. Things are going to change.

The point is you don't need to spend a $100K on a college education to learn how to write well or creatively. So when these kids are "shocked" their degree doesn't automatically transform them into the next Faulkner, forcing them to take a job waiting tables or something, which prompts them to place the blame on the "system" or "their parents," it irritates people. To me, it speaks of a lack of foresight on their part more than it does their parents misleading them or the system oppressing them.

So yeah, in response to a quote you made earlier to another poster, the attitudes of some 20-somethings do need to be evaluated.

[Agloco]

The point is you don't need to spend a $100K on a college education to learn how to write well or creatively. So when these kids are "shocked" their degree doesn't automatically transform them into the next Faulkner, forcing them to take a job waiting tables or something, which prompts them to place the blame on the "system" or "their parents," it irritates people. To me, it speaks of a lack of foresight on their part more than it does their parents misleading them or the system oppressing them.

So yeah, in response to a quote you made earlier to another poster, the attitudes of some 20-somethings do need to be evaluated.

Why though?

I have a problem with the notion that someone in their late teens or early twenties should have a firm grasp on the ways of the world. They have little to no life experience so it should not come as a surprise that shock sets in once the paradigm they've lived in shatters. Their predicament is a learning experience free of charge (obviously not including the debt incurred), hopefully one which which will pay dividends later on in life.

[midnightpulp]

Why though?

I have a problem with the notion that someone in their late teens or early twenties should have a firm grasp on the ways of the world. They have little to no life experience so it should not come as a surprise that shock sets in once the paradigm they've lived in shatters. Their predicament is a learning experience free of charge (obviously not including the debt incurred), hopefully one which which will pay dividends later on in life.

I could've structured that sentence better. It's not their shock that irritates people but the ensuing finger pointing.

[TarantinoRezDog]

I'm with the dude who punch each and every one of these hipster faggots in the face. If these assholes spent less time on facebook, twitter, and youtube, and more time figuring out ways to supplement their income, they wouldn't be crying about their pathetic existence and "occupying Wall Street," which is nothing more than bullshit rebellion for the sake of rebellion.

And the nerve of that one faggot to compare this to the Great Depression :lmao. Let me know when these jackasses are waiting in breadlines and throwing themselves off of buildings after losing their life savings. All these little brats have to do is call mommy and daddy and ask for money when things get tight, money that will likely go to cocaine, Pabst, and 100.00 shitty haircuts.

Fuck 'em.

[TarantinoRezDog]

:lmao

http://images.encyclopediadramatica.ch/0/0e/99_percent.jpg

[FuzzyLumpkins]

The point is you don't need to spend a $100K on a college education to learn how to write well or creatively. So when these kids are "shocked" their degree doesn't automatically transform them into the next Faulkner, forcing them to take a job waiting tables or something, which prompts them to place the blame on the "system" or "their parents," it irritates people. To me, it speaks of a lack of foresight on their part more than it does their parents misleading them or the system oppressing them.

So yeah, in response to a quote you made earlier to another poster, the attitudes of some 20-somethings do need to be evaluated.

Do you have any idea what is involved in writing a book? Have you ever tried?

Coming up with a 300 page cohesive work requires much training and if the schooling also includes the study of past works it improves the quality of writing. Pro writers are constantly working in workshops and improving their craft. That you think its just an easy speaks to you not knowing what you are talking about.

25% unemployment for people aged 18-25 how is that not the fucking systems fault.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I'm with the dude who punch each and every one of these hipster faggots in the face. If these assholes spent less time on facebook, twitter, and youtube, and more time figuring out ways to supplement their income, they wouldn't be crying about their pathetic existence and "occupying Wall Street," which is nothing more than bullshit rebellion for the sake of rebellion.

And the nerve of that one faggot to compare this to the Great Depression :lmao. Let me know when these jackasses are waiting in breadlines and throwing themselves off of buildings after losing their life savings. All these little brats have to do is call mommy and daddy and ask for money when things get tight, money that will likely go to cocaine, Pabst, and 100.00 shitty haircuts.

Fuck 'em.

Many people did commit suicide in 2007 i guess you jsut werent paying attention and poverty and homelessness are increasing at alarming rates. Fucked up unemployment rates will do that.

Go ahead and stick your head in the sand and kee[ telling these kids all is well its really just their fault.

You can only fuck with people for so long but by all means make that bed.

[greyforest]

And the nerve of that one faggot to compare this to the Great Depression :lmao.

What nerve to compare comparable events. I guess all the world's economists are all faggots too, huh?

It doesn't matter how many times you or anybody else says we aren't in a global depression, it's not going to change any facts. Facts I'm sure you don't know or give a fuck about because of your peon brain coming to a conclusion and ignoring any evidence which doesn't support it.

http://static7.businessinsider.com/image/4c7e78717f8b9a1c200d0300/plutocracy.jpg

http://www.babypips.com/blogs/currency_currents/images/110308/1.gif

http://static8.businessinsider.com/image/4cd7fa4e4bd7c8d60a040000-547/of-course-life-is-great-if-youre-in-the-top-1-of-american-wage-earners-youre-hauling-in-a-bigger-percentage-of-the-countrys-total-pre-tax-income-than-you-have-at-any-time-since-the-late-1920s-your-share-of-the-national-income-in-fact-is-almost-2x-the-long-term-average.jpg

http://static8.businessinsider.com/image/4e9461b0ecad04156c000028-547/and-its-not-like-unemployment-these-days-is-a-quick-painful-jolt-a-record-percentage-of-unemployed-people-have-been-unemployed-for-longer-than-6-months.jpg

http://static7.businessinsider.com/image/4e9461fdeab8ead748000035-547/and-its-not-just-construction-workers-who-cant-find-jobs-the-median-duration-of-all-unemployment-is-also-near-an-all-time-high.jpg

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=worst+since+great+depression

[midnightpulp]

Do you have any idea what is involved in writing a book? Have you ever tried?

Coming up with a 300 page cohesive work requires much training and if the schooling also includes the study of past works it improves the quality of writing. Pro writers are constantly working in workshops and improving their craft. That you think its just an easy speaks to you not knowing what you are talking about.

25% unemployment for people aged 18-25 how is that not the fucking systems fault.

Don't need a 100k liberal arts education to the study historical works of literature or get a workshop going with fellow authors.

And where did I ever say it was fuckin' easy? Bukowski, a person who never spent a minute in a college classroom, wrote himself into becoming a writer, compiling thousands of pages of material before he got a single word published.

These entitled kids today think their degree magically guarantees they'll produce good work or get hired in the industry. When they find out they need more than their diploma, and when the few short stories they wrote that their professor stamped with a gold star get rejected, they throw their hands up and cry about lack of opportunity, which progresses into complaints about "the system," eventually leading to cartoon rebelliousness filled with empty symbolism. For all its good intentions, the Occupy Wall Street movement is largely an exercise in emo angst. Not to mention, misdirected at the wrong institution. Washington D.C., where, you know, policy is actually made, would've been the more meaningful place to march.

Satirical article about the situation, but nonetheless accurate in portraying the mentality of a good majority of the protesters:

"As unemployment in Freedomland rises to hilarious extremes, filthy, pseudo-intellectual college hipsters concluded that the reason their liberal arts degrees weren't netting them $70,000+ salaried jobs straight out of the state university was because of the zionist one world government and their cronyism bleeding the country dry and oppressing the world, and now was the time to, like, throw off the chains of oppression, man!"

http://encyclopediadramatica.ch/Occupy_Wall_Street

And yeah, I got more than a good idea what it takes to write a novel. I started out in a different literary endeavor and it took me 8 years before I was paid for any of my work.

These kids want recognition now and a thriving career the minute they throw off their hat and gown. And as cold as it might sound, I have little sympathy for a liberal art's major plight. That's an area of study historically reserved for rich kids who were already set, a luxury. Now, you have people thinking they can build careers around a liberal arts degree. For a few, whether in academia or their chosen industry, it happens, but for the vast majority, the degree eventually becomes about as useless as toilet paper, more useless in fact, because you can't use it to wipe your ass.

Are you really that naive to think every person in that 25 percent demographic is qualified for the job they want? And as a pre-emptive reply to your reply of "they can't even find a job!" Starbucks, Walmart, and the fast food industry are always hiring. But these upper-crust libart hipsters think they're above that kind of menial work.

And I agree, the system is broken, but the overwhelming number of "useless" degree holders have contributed to the problem as well, and about the only thing they're qualified for in this current economic climate are service jobs.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Don't need a 100k liberal arts education to the study historical works of literature or get a workshop going with fellow authors.

And where did I ever say it was fuckin' easy? Bukowski, a person who never spent a minute in a college classroom, wrote himself into becoming a writer, compiling thousands of pages of material before he got a single word published.

These entitled kids today think their degree magically guarantees they'll produce good work or get hired in the industry. When they find out they need more than their diploma, and when the few short stories they wrote that their professor stamped with a gold star get rejected, they throw their hands up and cry about lack of opportunity, which progresses into complaints about "the system," eventually leading to cartoon rebelliousness filled with empty symbolism. For all its good intentions, the Occupy Wall Street movement is largely an exercise in emo angst. Not to mention, misdirected at the wrong institution. Washington D.C., where, you know, policy is actually made, would've been the more meaningful place to march.

Satirical article about the situation, but nonetheless accurate in portraying the mentality of a good majority of the protesters:

"As unemployment in Freedomland rises to hilarious extremes, filthy, pseudo-intellectual college hipsters concluded that the reason their liberal arts degrees weren't netting them $70,000+ salaried jobs straight out of the state university was because of the zionist one world government and their cronyism bleeding the country dry and oppressing the world, and now was the time to, like, throw off the chains of oppression, man!"

http://encyclopediadramatica.ch/Occupy_Wall_Street

And yeah, I got more than a good idea what it takes to write a novel. I started out in a different literary endeavor and it took me 8 years before I was paid for any of my work.

These kids want recognition now and a thriving career the minute they throw off their hat and gown. And as cold as it might sound, I have little sympathy for a liberal art's major plight. That's an area of study historically reserved for rich kids who were already set, a luxury. Now, you have people thinking they can build careers around a liberal arts degree. For a few, whether in academia or their chosen industry, it happens, but for the vast majority, the degree eventually becomes about as useless as toilet paper, more useless in fact, because you can't use it to wipe your ass.

Are you really that naive to think every person in that 25 percent demographic is qualified for the job they want? And as a pre-emptive reply to your reply of "they can't even find a job!" Starbucks, Walmart, and the fast food industry are always hiring. But these upper-crust libart hipsters think they're above that kind of menial work.

And I agree, the system is broken, but the overwhelming number of "useless" degree holders have contributed to the problem as well, and about the only thing they're qualified for in this current economic climate are service jobs.

Why is that $100k in loans needing to finish a 4 year degree on anything other than the cost of education?

And 'overwhelming' number of worthless degrees, anything to substantiate other than self serving satire?

they do not want instant gratification. Sorry you clearly did not read the article and really seem intent on pigeonholing the entirety of 15-25 year olds.

Make up shit about job openings that are not there. As nice as it sounds to act like 7-11 in struggling areas is always hiring that is just not true. Quite the contrary as has been pointed out in the analysis of the jobless rate of that demographic, many of those jobs are being taken by other demographics and pushing out that age group. Historically younger people have taken those jobs. Not now. Check it out the next time you buy a coke at the gas station.

[midnightpulp]

Why is that $100k in loans needing to finish a 4 year degree on anything other than the cost of education?

And 'overwhelming' number of worthless degrees, anything to substantiate other than self serving satire?

they do not want instant gratification. Sorry you clearly did not read the article and really seem intent on pigeonholing the entirety of 15-25 year olds.

Make up shit about job openings that are not there. As nice as it sounds to act like 7-11 in struggling areas is always hiring that is just not true. Quite the contrary as has been pointed out in the analysis of the jobless rate of that demographic, many of those jobs are being taken by other demographics and pushing out that age group. Historically younger people have taken those jobs. Not now. Check it out the next time you buy a coke at the gas station.

"Between 2008-2018 the projected growth of barista jobs is average with expected job openings estimated at over 400,000."

http://www.hourlycareers.com/barista-jobs?start=10&q=barista&l=

And that's just one industry.

Look, I'm not deluded enough to think these low-paying, menial jobs will solve the problem, but for many of these kids who come from the upper class and have the option of moving back home, a job like this is the first step in getting some real world experience and paying down their debt.

[midnightpulp]

Why is that $100k in loans needing to finish a 4 year degree on anything other than the cost of education?

And 'overwhelming' number of worthless degrees, anything to substantiate other than self serving satire?

they do not want instant gratification. Sorry you clearly did not read the article and really seem intent on pigeonholing the entirety of 15-25 year olds.

Make up shit about job openings that are not there. As nice as it sounds to act like 7-11 in struggling areas is always hiring that is just not true. Quite the contrary as has been pointed out in the analysis of the jobless rate of that demographic, many of those jobs are being taken by other demographics and pushing out that age group. Historically younger people have taken those jobs. Not now. Check it out the next time you buy a coke at the gas station.

"We could stop issuing degrees in English for 20 years and still have more than enough English majors to go around."

Read more: http://www.theolympian.com/2007/09/26/227366/only-29-percent-of-americans-have.html#ixzz1bVLksEKU

Oh, and how am I pigeonholing when I clearly delineated the difference between degree holders? From my point-of-view, the engineering grad and the libart grad seem to have two different mentalities.

[greyforest]

"Between 2008-2018 the projected growth of barista jobs is average with expected job openings estimated at over 400,000."

http://www.hourlycareers.com/barista-jobs?start=10&q=barista&l=

And that's just one industry.

Look, I'm not deluded enough to think these low-paying, menial jobs will solve the problem, but for many of these kids who come from the upper class and have the option of moving back home, a job like this is the first step in getting some real world experience and paying down their debt.

This report is 3 years old. College graduates have been filling these positions for several years.

You have described what is happening, bravo. College graduates are taking $16,000 per year jobs to try and not only support themselves (rent, costs of living), pay off their college debt (which bought them a useless piece of paper), and springboard to a career and middle class family.

Then, when they do get a job and start paying income taxes, a percentage of that will go to social security which they will never be awarded, as well as interest for the national debt which is spiraling out of control.

I don't think anyone here should be surprised there are upset people with such a deal.

[midnightpulp]

This report is 3 years old. College graduates have been filling these positions for several years.

You have described what is happening, bravo. College graduates are taking $16,000 per year jobs to try and not only support themselves (rent, costs of living), pay off their college debt (which bought them a useless piece of paper), and springboard to a career and middle class family.

Then, when they do get a job and start paying income taxes, a percentage of that will go to social security which they will never be awarded, as well as interest for the national debt which is spiraling out of control.

I don't think anyone here should be surprised there are upset people with such a deal.

Those figures are still relevant since they project job growth to last until 2018.

While some grads indeed have little options, I believe a majority of them have ways to alleviate their burden, whether that be moving back home, or taking on roommates, all the while adhering to a strict budget that jettisons all luxury.

I understand where you're coming from, though. Trust me. The "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" sentimentality spouted by older conservatives can be irritating to listen to, especially when the two generations grew up in different economic climates, but forgive those of us who have a hard time summoning up empathy for a well-to-do middle/upper class kid who is angry that their liberal arts, environment studies, or philosophy degree isn't the license to print money they thought it would be.

And your point about how the younger generation is going to be grandfathered into paying for the mistakes of the previous generation is precisely why I think the Occupy Wall Street movement should be rerouted to Washington D.C. It was policy that bailed out the bankers and put the country into trillions of debt, but since the movement is primarily composed of libtards who still cling to the idea that Obama is this shining example of liberalism, that's probably not going to happen.

[ChuckD]

If there is a "problem" with the millennial generation, it's their fucking parents. I work with one woman who's daughter is 4 years out of college, has her own job and apartment in another city, and is still on their phone plan, and was on their health until she aged out. Another co-worker has a son living at home that is like 26, and won't even LOOK for a fucking job, and it's not because he's been turned down...he's NEVER looked. My niece was all put out when she had to give back her family credit card...at 25.

If you think they seem over-entitled, it's because that's the message they've gotten their whole life. Baby Einstein, Montessori, dance lessons, arguing kids grades with teachers...fucking helicopter parents.

[CosmicCowboy]

If there is a "problem" with the millennial generation, it's their fucking parents. I work with one woman who's daughter is 4 years out of college, has her own job and apartment in another city, and is still on their phone plan, and was on their health until she aged out. Another co-worker has a son living at home that is like 26, and won't even LOOK for a fucking job, and it's not because he's been turned down...he's NEVER looked. My niece was all put out when she had to give back her family credit card...at 25.

If you think they seem over-entitled, it's because that's the message they've gotten their whole life. Baby Einstein, Montessori, dance lessons, arguing kids grades with teachers...fucking helicopter parents.

Wow. That's a little harsh. I see no problem with helping your kids as long as they are WORKING towards improving their prospects for total self sufficiency. My daughter didn't do well on her first stab at college (homesick) and did a work sabbatical. She has ALWAYS had a job (or two) and is now 27 and working 36 hours a week and going back to school working on a nursing degree.

I pay her gas and car insurance and give her a couple hundred a month to supplement her income and help with tuition so she can stay in her own apartment.

I really don't see anything wrong with that.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

If there is a "problem" with the millennial generation, it's their fucking parents. I work with one woman who's daughter is 4 years out of college, has her own job and apartment in another city, and is still on their phone plan, and was on their health until she aged out. Another co-worker has a son living at home that is like 26, and won't even LOOK for a fucking job, and it's not because he's been turned down...he's NEVER looked. My niece was all put out when she had to give back her family credit card...at 25.

If you think they seem over-entitled, it's because that's the message they've gotten their whole life. Baby Einstein, Montessori, dance lessons, arguing kids grades with teachers...fucking helicopter parents.
The phone plan maybe a bit too much (not really though), but I don't see the big deal with letting your kids age of the health plan. Assuming it was through one of the parents' jobs, it costs them next to nothing to keep her on the plan as long as possible, and it's probably a much better plan than whatever her entry level job provided.

I agree with the other parts though for the most part, but like CC said, if the kid is working to better his or herself through education/other means, giving him/her financial support isn't bad parenting.

My step sister is an example of parents fucking up. Graduated from college (with some kind of cheese dick degree in writing that won't lead to anything without hard work/luck or additional education), doesn't make ANY effort to get her career in writing started (in spite of the fact she's actually been introduced to people who can get her a job), and lives at home while getting everything paid for as if she's still in high school.

[ChuckD]

Wow. That's a little harsh. I see no problem with helping your kids as long as they are WORKING towards improving their prospects for total self sufficiency. My daughter didn't do well on her first stab at college (homesick) and did a work sabbatical. She has ALWAYS had a job (or two) and is now 27 and working 36 hours a week and going back to school working on a nursing degree.

I pay her gas and car insurance and give her a couple hundred a month to supplement her income and help with tuition so she can stay in her own apartment.

I really don't see anything wrong with that.

She's on attempt #2 for her education, and that's fine. If she's taking classes, subsidizing her is OK, as long as she's showing progress. The two examples I gave were a girl away from home WITH a job and NOT going to school still being subsidized, and a waste of a 26 YO boy doing nothing who needs in the worst way to be kicked out.

Subsidizing kids gives them an unrealistic perception of the world, like whenever they need help, someone will be there to give it to them. I don't believe that to be true of the world at large, but even if YOU are there for them, you've mentally crippled them by not allowing them to stub their toe or take a fall, and figure things out and pick themselves up.

[ChuckD]

The phone plan maybe a bit too much (not really though), but I don't see the big deal with letting your kids age of the health plan. Assuming it was through one of the parents' jobs, it costs them next to nothing to keep her on the plan as long as possible, and it's probably a much better plan than whatever her entry level job provided.

I agree with the other parts though for the most part, but like CC said, if the kid is working to better his or herself through education/other means, giving him/her financial support isn't bad parenting.

My step sister is an example of parents fucking up. Graduated from college (with some kind of cheese dick degree in writing that won't lead to anything without hard work/luck or additional education), doesn't make ANY effort to get her career in writing started (in spite of the fact she's actually been introduced to people who can get her a job), and lives at home while getting everything paid for as if she's still in high school.

Actually, the difference between employee and employee/child(ren) insurance is considerable.

[boutons_deux]

anecdotes about Other Peoples' Kids, etc don't offset the indisputable fact that the Banksters' Great Jobs Depression is a disaster for 18-30 age whites, and unspeakably worse for blacks and browns.

[Drachen]

Actually, the difference between employee and employee/child(ren) insurance is considerable.

Not necessarily. My insurance plan has "employee"," employee and spouse", "employee and child", and"employee and family" so it kinda depends on how many kids you have. Also for the phone plan, that just makes sense. 30 dollars to keep them on our they pay 80 dollars to get their own (though I would make them pay their 30).

[Agloco]

I could've structured that sentence better. It's not their shock that irritates people but the ensuing finger pointing.

And I'd repeat my question, albeit with a few modifications.


Why though?

I have a problem with the notion that someone in their late teens or early twenties should have a firm grasp on the ways of the world. They have little to no life experience so it should not come as a surprise that finger pointing ensues once the paradigm they've lived in shatters. Their predicament is a learning experience free of charge (obviously not including the debt incurred), hopefully one which which will pay dividends later on in life.

It's the same dance, just a different tune. By and large, the anti Wall street crowd can be characterized with a "I forgot where I came from" slogan. One could add a gross underappreciation of the situation into the mix as well if affluence was the paradigm in which their rearing took place. Everyone has been ignorant of the real world at one point or another. It's time for the "53%-ers" to acknowledge that inconvenient truth.

Understand, I'm not exonerating the Wall Streeters. I'm simply attempting to give proper context to their gripe. It's not so as the motivations behind their activities are baseless. I think a bit more tolerance is in order.


I understand where you're coming from, though. Trust me. The "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" sentimentality spouted by older conservatives can be irritating to listen to, especially when the two generations grew up in different economic climates, but forgive those of us who have a hard time summoning up empathy for a well-to-do middle/upper class kid who is angry that their liberal arts, environment studies, or philosophy degree isn't the license to print money they thought it would be.

I'd argue:

1) That cohort is not representative of this group as a whole. I may be wrong, but I doubt it (Charles Barkey, T-Mobile 2010)

2) Perhaps one should consider the first point and develop some empathy towards the cohorts which offer a better representation of this movement.

[greyforest]

forgive those of us who have a hard time summoning up empathy for a well-to-do middle/upper class kid who is angry that their liberal arts, environment studies, or philosophy degree isn't the license to print money they thought it would be.

Those degrees never led to careers even when the economy was booming, so I don't know why everyone keeps talking about them.

The current scenario is such that nearly every single undergrad degree does not lead to a career, even engineering and sciences. Does someone want to quote that five or six times for this page?

[CosmicCowboy]

Those degrees never led to careers even when the economy was booming, so I don't know why everyone keeps talking about them.

The current scenario is such that nearly every single undergrad degree does not lead to a career, even engineering and sciences. Does someone want to quote that five or six times for this page?

Saying it 5 or 6 times doesn't necessarily make it true. Hiring of engineers has returned to pre-recession numbers according to the BLS. I'm not sure what your definition of "career" is but starting salaries from $60,000 to $120,000 depending on specialty are nothing to sneeze at.

[ploto]

I really do not know why anyone encourages kids (or even thier parents) to go into huge debt for a bachelor's degree. I am curious- for anyone who did on here- why? Did you just HAVE to go to that school so much that it was somehow worth saddling yourself with all this debt?

My kid has a full-tuition scholarship. Otherwise, he would be living at home, going to community college for 2 years, and then transferring to a state school.

[greyforest]

Saying it 5 or 6 times doesn't necessarily make it true. Hiring of engineers has returned to pre-recession numbers according to the BLS. I'm not sure what your definition of "career" is but starting salaries from $60,000 to $120,000 depending on specialty are nothing to sneeze at.


http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2011/05/19/business/economy/economix-19collegemajors/economix-19collegemajors-custom2.jpg

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2011/05/19/business/economy/economix-19collegemajors/economix-19collegemajors-custom1.jpg
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/05/19/the-college-majors-that-do-best-in-the-job-market/

As you see, the engineering/medical/sciences undergrad degrees all outperform the fake majors (as always), but your $60,000 to $120,000 starting salary is the same bullshit pipe dream as expecting a career with a Poli Sci degree.

Stop blaming my generation for fucking up the economy.

[mavs>spurs]

My kid has a full-tuition scholarship. Otherwise, he would be living at home, going to community college for 2 years, and then transferring to a state school.

That's what I did. Stayed home and went to community college, then transferred to the cheapest school around here and continued to commute from home. Eventually earned a school scholarship because of my grades, although it probably only pays for 10-15% of tuition, it still helps. I'll only have about 20k in debt when I'm all finished, not too bad I don't think. As long as I can get a job :lol

[MannyIsGod]

I really do not know why anyone encourages kids (or even thier parents) to go into huge debt for a bachelor's degree. I am curious- for anyone who did on here- why? Did you just HAVE to go to that school so much that it was somehow worth saddling yourself with all this debt?

My kid has a full-tuition scholarship. Otherwise, he would be living at home, going to community college for 2 years, and then transferring to a state school.

This is what I brought up in the other thread on school costs. Its not people don't have affordable access in state that you need to somehow go to a damn private school and pay that much. That really doesn't make any sense to me.

[greyforest]

I really do not know why anyone encourages kids (or even thier parents) to go into huge debt for a bachelor's degree.

People like CosmicCowboy, who assume an engineering grad will make $60,000 - $120,000 per year starting salary.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

"Between 2008-2018 the projected growth of barista jobs is average with expected job openings estimated at over 400,000."

http://www.hourlycareers.com/barista-jobs?start=10&q=barista&l=

And that's just one industry.

Look, I'm not deluded enough to think these low-paying, menial jobs will solve the problem, but for many of these kids who come from the upper class and have the option of moving back home, a job like this is the first step in getting some real world experience and paying down their debt.

What part of other demographics are segmenting those spots did you not get. And great one industry. Coffeehouses are the future for our youth. They just need to take it and appreciate it. Like I said, you can only shit on a people for so long.

[CosmicCowboy]

People like CosmicCowboy, who assume an engineering grad will make $60,000 - $120,000 per year starting salary.

I simply referred to the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos027.htm

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I simply referred to the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos027.htm

Yeah most are $50k +/- $5k.

[greyforest]

:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao :lmao


starting salaries from $60,000 to $120,000 depending on specialty are nothing to sneeze at.



convenient that you re-typed it and only included the minimum range and not the maximum range on salary.


starting salaries from $60,000 to $120,000 depending on specialty are nothing to sneeze at.



convenient that you re-typed it and only included the minimum range and not the maximum range on salary.


starting salaries from $60,000 to $120,000 depending on specialty are nothing to sneeze at.



convenient that you re-typed it and only included the minimum range and not the maximum range on salary.


starting salaries from $60,000 to $120,000 depending on specialty are nothing to sneeze at.



convenient that you re-typed it and only included the minimum range and not the maximum range on salary.


starting salaries from $60,000 to $120,000 depending on specialty are nothing to sneeze at.



convenient that you re-typed it and only included the minimum range and not the maximum range on salary.


starting salaries from $60,000 to $120,000 depending on specialty are nothing to sneeze at.



convenient that you re-typed it and only included the minimum range and not the maximum range on salary.


starting salaries from $60,000 to $120,000 depending on specialty are nothing to sneeze at.



convenient that you re-typed it and only included the minimum range and not the maximum range on salary.


starting salaries from $60,000 to $120,000 depending on specialty are nothing to sneeze at.



convenient that you re-typed it and only included the minimum range and not the maximum range on salary.


starting salaries from $60,000 to $120,000 depending on specialty are nothing to sneeze at.



convenient that you re-typed it and only included the minimum range and not the maximum range on salary.

:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao :lmao

[CosmicCowboy]

You simply made some shit up, because here's what it says about starting salaries:



Consider that only 70% of engineering graduates are employed in their field with these jobs.

Seeing as how you have just proven to all of us how you were capable of being fooled in to thinking an engineering bachelor's degree was worth more than it actually is:



How can you have the audacity to condescend to those who are complaining?

I think you should reconsider.

:lmao

convenient that you re-typed it and only included the minimum range and not the maximum range on salary. HUGE spread, obviously depending on the quality of the graduate.

And yeah, I can have contempt for you, you whiney little bitch.

[greyforest]

You literally just made numbers up from out of your head, then linked the BLS. Look:


Saying it 5 or 6 times doesn't necessarily make it true. Hiring of engineers has returned to pre-recession numbers according to the BLS. I'm not sure what your definition of "career" is but starting salaries from $60,000 to $120,000 depending on specialty are nothing to sneeze at.

You had a preconceived notion that was incorrect. I had to read the page you linked me and DO YOUR RESEARCH FOR YOU in order to show you what reality was.

After I did that, you reply:


:lmao

convenient that you re-typed it and only included the minimum range and not the maximum range on salary.

OF COURSE WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE MINIMUM. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT STARTING SALARY. STARTING SALARY.


Saying it 5 or 6 times doesn't necessarily make it true. Hiring of engineers has returned to pre-recession numbers according to the BLS. I'm not sure what your definition of "career" is but starting salaries from $60,000 to $120,000 depending on specialty are nothing to sneeze at.


starting salaries from $60,000 to $120,000 depending on specialty are nothing to sneeze at.


starting salaries


starting salaries


starting salaries


-I haven't "re-typed" anything. Copy and paste is amazing. I had to do that in order for you to read what was in the article you linked, because you didn't do it yourself.

-You literally fell for the same trap that you argue college kids are stupid for having made; thinking that there is a high-paying salaried job waiting for them at the end.

-After pointing this out to you, you still quite hilariously have no concept how much of a FOOL you appear to anyone with a modicum of intelligence.

I'm sure you do have contempt for me, showing you that you are not smart and all.

[CosmicCowboy]

You literally just made numbers up from out of your head, then linked the BLS. Look:



You had a preconceived notion that was incorrect. I had to read the page you linked me and DO YOUR RESEARCH FOR YOU in order to show you what reality was.

After I did that, you reply:



-I haven't "re-typed" anything. Copy and paste is amazing. I had to do that in order for you to read what was in the article you linked, because you didn't do it yourself.

-You literally fell for the same trap that you argue college kids are stupid for having made; thinking that there is a high-paying salaried job waiting for them at the end.

-After pointing this out to you, you still literally have no concept how much of a FOOL you appear to anyone with a modicum of intelligence.

I'm sure you do have contempt for me, showing you that you are not smart and all.

Oh Boohoo. I think I'll go cry now. Some whiney little shithead on the internet with selective reading comprehension thinks I'm dumb. BooHoohoo.

[greyforest]

Of course we are talking about the minimum. We are talking about starting salary. Starting salary.


saying it 5 or 6 times doesn't necessarily make it true. Hiring of engineers has returned to pre-recession numbers according to the bls. I'm not sure what your definition of "career" is but starting salaries from $60,000 to $120,000 depending on specialty are nothing to sneeze at.


starting salaries from $60,000 to $120,000 depending on specialty are nothing to sneeze at.


starting salaries


starting salaries


starting salaries


starting salaries


starting salaries


starting salaries
starting salaries


starting salaries


starting salaries
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[greyforest]

starting salaries


starting salaries


starting salaries
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starting salaries


starting salaries
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starting salaries


starting salaries
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starting salaries


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[CosmicCowboy]

:lmao:lmao:lmao

[greyforest]

:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao :lmao


starting salaries from $60,000 to $120,000 depending on specialty are nothing to sneeze at.



convenient that you re-typed it and only included the minimum range and not the maximum range on salary.


starting salaries from $60,000 to $120,000 depending on specialty are nothing to sneeze at.



convenient that you re-typed it and only included the minimum range and not the maximum range on salary.


starting salaries from $60,000 to $120,000 depending on specialty are nothing to sneeze at.



convenient that you re-typed it and only included the minimum range and not the maximum range on salary.


starting salaries from $60,000 to $120,000 depending on specialty are nothing to sneeze at.



convenient that you re-typed it and only included the minimum range and not the maximum range on salary.


starting salaries from $60,000 to $120,000 depending on specialty are nothing to sneeze at.



convenient that you re-typed it and only included the minimum range and not the maximum range on salary.


starting salaries from $60,000 to $120,000 depending on specialty are nothing to sneeze at.



convenient that you re-typed it and only included the minimum range and not the maximum range on salary.


starting salaries from $60,000 to $120,000 depending on specialty are nothing to sneeze at.



convenient that you re-typed it and only included the minimum range and not the maximum range on salary.


starting salaries from $60,000 to $120,000 depending on specialty are nothing to sneeze at.



convenient that you re-typed it and only included the minimum range and not the maximum range on salary.


starting salaries from $60,000 to $120,000 depending on specialty are nothing to sneeze at.



convenient that you re-typed it and only included the minimum range and not the maximum range on salary.

:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao :lmao

[TarantinoRezDog]

You simply made some shit up, because here's what it says about starting salaries:



Consider that only 70% of engineering graduates are employed in their field with these jobs.

Seeing as how you have just proven to all of us how you were capable of being fooled in to thinking an engineering bachelor's degree was worth more than it actually is:



How can you have the audacity to condescend to those who are complaining?

I think you should reconsider.

Why Umad?

Out of a job I take it? Liberal arts degree ain't paying off like you expected?

But I guess I should be more understanding, since the current economy is the equivalent to the great depression, you know, "on paper" (never mind the fact that people during the great depression didn't have the luxury of buying shit made in China and had to pay like 5.00 for a bottle of milk, or the luxury of a protected savings account, or the luxury of receiving help from older family members of the previous generation, or the luxury of taking advantage of a variety of government programs).

Made sure to take your iPod when you wait in the bread line tonight. You'll probably be standing there for awhile.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Why Umad?

Out of a job I take it? Liberal arts degree ain't paying off like you expected?

But I guess I should be more understanding, since the current economy is the equivalent to the great depression, you know, "on paper" (never mind the fact that people during the great depression didn't have the luxury of buying shit made in China and had to pay like 5.00 for a bottle of milk, or the luxury of a protected savings account, or the luxury of receiving help from older family members of the previous generation, or the luxury of taking advantage of a variety of government programs).

Made sure to take your iPod when you wait in the bread line tonight. You'll probably be standing there for awhile.

The $5 milk was from a strike and you will see some of that if this climate continues. You are basically creating an environment where an entire generation is going to be antiestablishment and resent the fuck out of their usurious elders.

Oh and BTW the homeless and poverty problem is worsening but by all means just pretend nothing is wrong. And they are the ones being called complacent and entitled?

[TarantinoRezDog]

The $5 milk was from a strike and you will see some of that if this climate continues. You are basically creating an environment where an entire generation is going to be antiestablishment and resent the fuck out of their usurious elders.

Oh and BTW the homeless and poverty problem is worsening but by all means just pretend nothing is wrong. And they are the ones being called complacent and entitled?

When the DOW drops 89 percent, when 5000 banks fold and can't simply ask the government for a near trillion dollars, when unemployment reaches 25%, then you can compare this to the Great Depression.

And I hope you guys become anti-establishment. Maybe it'll inspire your generation to start making some good music so I don't have to listen to fuckin' Katy Perry and Justin Bieber every time I flip on the radio.

[CosmicCowboy]

And Butthurtforest is also stuck on that "only 70% with engineering batchelors are working in their field"

No shit sherlock. Most of those 30% went ahead and got MBA's and jumped right into corporate management and six figure salaries with unlimited upside.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

When the DOW drops 89 percent, when 5000 banks fold and can't simply ask the government for a near trillion dollars, when unemployment reaches 25%, then you can compare this to the Great Depression.

And I hope you guys become anti-establishment. Maybe it'll inspire your generation to start making some good music so I don't have to listen to fuckin' Katy Perry and Justin Bieber every time I flip on the radio.

As opposed to Will Rogers or The Monkees? Shit music spans the ages.

The unemployment rate for 18-25 year olds is 25%

http://www.bls.gov/web/empsit/cpseea10.htm

Look at that shit.

[TarantinoRezDog]

As opposed to Will Rogers or The Monkees? Shit music spans the ages.

The unemployment rate for 18-25 year olds is 25%

http://www.bls.gov/web/empsit/cpseea10.htm

Look at that shit.

True but your generation has cornered the market on trash, in every medium. Wasn't no Jersey Shore, Real Housewives Of..., Kardashian shit in my day. It's because your ADD, the epidemic illness of your generation, demands light entertainment that can be easily understood, digested, and forgotten. Any time I interview a youngster, I swear, you kids talk like you are stoned, stammering out words in one inarticulate blob, but the way you present yourself is largely unimportant because you expect to show me that piece of paper (degree) you overpaid for and get hired on the spot.

And 25% unemployment for 18-25 is NOT 25% for the whole country. How many of those 18 years olds polled do you think are still in high school? How many are still in college? And if you lazy, self-entitled fucks would be willing to dig some ditches or clean some bathrooms, that number would no doubt drop.

But you want the plush salaried job the minute the dean hands you your Liberal Arts Degree. Ain't happening, bro.

[Vici]

And 25% unemployment for 18-25 is NOT 25% for the whole country. How many of those 18 years polled do you think are still in high school? How many are still in college? And if you lazy, self-entitled fucks would be willing to dig some ditches or clean some bathrooms, that number would no doubt drop.


Why? So you can get a promotion?

[TarantinoRezDog]

Why? So you can get a promotion?

Trying to insult those with menial jobs, I see. That quote right there provides an insight into your mentality as whole.

And what's funny is at this point the ditch-digger or custodian has more of a future than dumb fuck kid who thought it'd be a novel idea to pay 100 grand for a Liberal Arts or Women's Studies degree. :lol

[Vici]

Trying to insult those with menial jobs, I see. That quote right there provides an insight into your mentality as whole.

And what's funny is at this point the ditch-digger or custodian has more of a future than dumb fuck kid who thought it'd be a novel idea to pay 100 grand for a Liberal Arts or Women's Studies degree. :lol

You know I was just messing with ya. That post was very poorly written and you left yourself open...

But sure, look into that all you want. No way in hell I'd clean toilets. I have a very valuable skill set that pays very well. I happen to be lucky enough to have a company believe it as much as I do.

[TarantinoRezDog]

The phone plan maybe a bit too much (not really though), but I don't see the big deal with letting your kids age of the health plan. Assuming it was through one of the parents' jobs, it costs them next to nothing to keep her on the plan as long as possible, and it's probably a much better plan than whatever her entry level job provided.

I agree with the other parts though for the most part, but like CC said, if the kid is working to better his or herself through education/other means, giving him/her financial support isn't bad parenting.

My step sister is an example of parents fucking up. Graduated from college (with some kind of cheese dick degree in writing that won't lead to anything without hard work/luck or additional education), doesn't make ANY effort to get her career in writing started (in spite of the fact she's actually been introduced to people who can get her a job), and lives at home while getting everything paid for as if she's still in high school.

There's more of these types going around than there are the kids who legitimately can't find work. Every 25 and younger kid I know, from nieces to nephews to cousins to family of friends who doesn't have a job is because they haven't looked for one. Of course they're college grads with some bullshit libart degree and think manning the blender at Orange Julius is beneath them. But they still figure into the "unemployment statistics."

Then they turn around and blame the influx of Cuban immigrants (I'm in Miami) for the lack of entry level jobs but at the same time call for open borders to keep up their liberal image, cause, you know, it's hip and cool to be liberal.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

True but your generation has cornered the market on trash, in every medium. Wasn't no Jersey Shore, Real Housewives Of..., Kardashian shit in my day. It's because your ADD, the epidemic illness of your generation, demands light entertainment that can be easily understood, digested, and forgotten. Any time I interview a youngster, I swear, you kids talk like you are stoned, stammering out words in one inarticulate blob, but the way you present yourself is largely unimportant because you expect to show me that piece of paper (degree) you overpaid for and get hired on the spot.

And 25% unemployment for 18-25 is NOT 25% for the whole country. How many of those 18 years olds polled do you think are still in high school? How many are still in college? And if you lazy, self-entitled fucks would be willing to dig some ditches or clean some bathrooms, that number would no doubt drop.

But you want the plush salaried job the minute the dean hands you your Liberal Arts Degree. Ain't happening, bro.

Personification by pop culture as an excuse to designate their relative place. Whatever lets you sleep at night I guess.

And I agree completely that the DSM has become stupid as the basis for diagnosis but the medicating of children was not their work. They did not run nor take themselves through the ritalin turnstile. Quite frankly that entire industry disgusts me.

The unemployment rate only counts those that are seeking work. Not students etc not looking for work. 1 in 4 but MTV has the Jersey Shore on so thats cool i guess. Go clean toilets right?

[TarantinoRezDog]

Go clean toilets right?

Why not?

Think you're above it?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Why not?

Think you're above it?

Oh my god that is such horseshit.

Have you ever applied for a janitorial job?

[TarantinoRezDog]

Oh my god that is such horseshit.

Have you ever applied for a janitorial job?

Answer a question with a question. Clever :tu

No, I haven't, not because I wouldn't do the work, but because there were none available at that particular time I was working, so instead I found a job picking fruit in the beyond humid Florida weather and also worked for a Cuban landscaper doing the grunt work. 4 years of doing that, and whatta you know, got money for college!

What shit jobs have you done, Nancy Boy?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Answer a question with a question. Clever :tu

No, I haven't, not because I wouldn't do the work, but because there were none available at that particular time I was working, so instead I found a job picking fruit in the beyond humid Florida weather and also worked for a Cuban landscaper doing the grunt work. 4 years of doing that, and whatta you know, got money for college!

What shit jobs have you done, Nancy Boy?

Plumbing and HVAC

There is no job 'cleaning toilets.' And all the low paying jobs are not this wide open source of employment. You are just using it as hyperbole goes strawman to try and pigeonhole me with your mythical stereotype.

You tell yourself in your head that the 1 in 4 18-25 year olds who are unemployed because they dont want to 'clean toilets' and then include with that fiction and call it a day.

Its horseshit. I was just trying to be more succinct.

[TarantinoRezDog]

Plumbing and HVAC

There is no job 'cleaning toilets.' And all the low paying jobs are not this wide open source of employment. You are just using it as hyperbole goes strawman to try and pigeonhole me with your mythical stereotype.

You tell yourself in your head that the 1 in 4 18-25 year olds who are unemployed because they dont want to 'clean toilets' and then include with that fiction and call it a day.

Its horseshit. I was just trying to be more succinct.

Obviously, but that's the one part of a janitor's job that most people find appalling, so it's become something of a catchall term when describing menial custodial work.

And absolutely part of the reason one in four kids are unemployed is because they refuse to do lower end work.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Obviously, but that's the one part of a janitor's job that most people find appalling, so it's become something of a catchall term when describing menial custodial work.

And absolutely part of the reason one in four kids are unemployed is because they refuse to do lower end work.

Of course there are going to be segments unwilling to do certain jobs but that is going to be the case of any generation. Its typically the ones you are trying to marginalize that you try and characterize as lazy and stupid. That is exactly what the liberal arts degree bash and what you are doing are.

[TarantinoRezDog]

Of course there are going to be segments unwilling to do certain jobs but that is going to be the case of any generation. Its typically the ones you are trying to marginalize that you try and characterize as lazy and stupid. That is exactly what the liberal arts degree bash and what you are doing are.

Why is it that in every post you ignore the faults of your generation and refuse to criticize their very real shortcomings?

We had management training centered around how to deal with the "unique" traits, personality, and skills of Generation Y. Their key faults were lazy, entitled, egotistical, with their benefits being tech savvy, quick learners, and highly motivated if you figured out how exactly to direct their energy. For example, they would spend all day working on the company's facebook profile but getting them to do an hour of filing was like getting a 10 year old to take out the trash. Plain and simple, they put fun and feelings of fulfillment before work.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Why is it that in every post you ignore the faults of your generation and refuse to criticize their very real shortcomings?

We had management training centered around how to deal with the "unique" traits, personality, and skills of Generation Y. Their key faults were lazy, entitled, egotistical, with their benefits being tech savvy, quick learners, and highly motivated if you figured out how exactly to direct their energy. For example, they would spend all day working on the company's facebook profile but getting them to do an hour of filing was like getting a 10 year old to take out the trash. Plain and simple, they put fun and feelings of fulfillment before work.

Who said they were my generation? So you actually had a fellow employee work on a facebook all day but refuse to file or you picked this up in training?

[TarantinoRezDog]

Who said they were my generation? So you actually had a fellow employee work on a facebook all day but refuse to file or you picked this up in training?

Just for one day to get it up and running. Obviously, we wouldn't have a successful business if we paid employees primarily for that.

They didn't refuse, but you can see the enthusiasm and energy leave their body when they're tasked with filing or data entry, which is something they also do half assed, but when we asked the girl to create us a facebook, her face lit up and she about jumped out of her seat.

You're not in 20-35 demo? Coulda fooled me.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Just for one day to get it up and running. Obviously, we wouldn't have a successful business if we paid employees primarily for that.

They didn't refuse, but you can see the enthusiasm and energy leave their body when they're tasked with filing or data entry, which is something they also do half assed, but when we asked the girl to create us a facebook, her face lit up and she about jumped out of her seat.

You're not in 20-35 demo? Coulda fooled me.

Well I am defending the demographic it would make sense that you would think that. So they would do it but you didn't like their body language so they are lazy? How would you approach doing it had they not been there say they were sick?

[TarantinoRezDog]

Well I am defending the demographic it would make sense that you would think that. So they would do it but you didn't like their body language so they are lazy? How would you approach doing it had they not been there say they were sick?

Miss the part about them doing the work half-assed?

And even if you're not part of the young gen, why so quick to defend them against legitimate criticism?

You wouldn't balk if I said a boomer was incompetent with technology and that many boomers are unwilling to learn or are slow learners when it comes to that (because it's true), but when I describe the way the current gen has an aversion to work they don't like (also true), you seem to disbelieve it.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Miss the part about them doing the work half-assed?

And even if you're not part of the young gen, why so quick to defend them against legitimate criticism?

You wouldn't balk if I said a boomer was incompetent with technology and that many boomers are unwilling to learn or are slow learners when it comes to that (because it's true), but when I describe the way the current gen has an aversion to work they don't like (also true), you seem to disbelieve it.

Every generation gets the lazy and stupid treatment. There are caricatures of it in pop culture over and over again. Assigning "an aversion to work they don't like" to label an entire generation might seem like a legitimate criticism to you but to me it just seems like the same shit again.

[RandomGuy]

This thread has all the makings of a classic.

Young people suck. Old people rule!

[RandomGuy]

Kids these days are a buncha spoiled brats.

[admiralsnackbar]

...with their bullshit pop music and crappy television and stupid... thick and lustrous haircuts, and innate technical abilities, and good backs, and lack of kids and mortgages, and hot, sexually liberated girlfriends that don't care about money yet.

I had Donnie and Marie and Saxon and Camaros, bitches... [shotgun blast]