Do you younger guys agree with this article?

[CosmicCowboy]

I just read it in the magazine and searched to see if it is on-line...Is it an accurate view of your generations perspective?

http://nymag.com/news/features/my-generation-2011-10/

[RandomGuy]

A bit longish.

My 40 year old ass is too old to comment for myself personally, but my gut says it is probably not too far off the mark.

I wonder what will be written about my children's cohort when they hit 20 in 15 years or so.

[RandomGuy]

As a parent who came into kids about a decade or so after the first of my generation, I recoiled at the "everybody is a winner" bulllshit that is being peddled.

Not everybody is going to be a winner. Some will succeed, some will fail. Not all games are "zero sum", but you can't expect to win all games or get things for "just showing up".

I am too competitive for that mamby-pamby crap. I have told my kids straight up "someone will come in last place". I encourage them to do their best, but not to be laboring under the delusion that there isn't someone better out there that will beat that.

Hard balance between "tiger mom" win-at-all-costs, and building some decent amount of self-esteem to face challenges with the confidence that you can. The two are not mutually exclusive, but too far one way or the other is not healthy, IMO.

[RandomGuy]

I just read it in the magazine and searched to see if it is on-line...Is it an accurate view of your generations perspective?

http://nymag.com/news/features/my-generation-2011-10/

Thanks for the article, by the way. The tedious drum beat of the election cycle needed something with a bit of a wider perspective.

[CosmicCowboy]

I guess it was too long for them to read without getting a participation prize...:toast

[Vici]

It sure is CC. I am now one of the lucky ones the author speaks of but there was a point where I was unemployed for 5 months. I luckily was able to scrape by and everything worked out for the best but my story is very unique. Most of my friends who are employed don't have careers. The few that do are either in the military as officers or in my field. It really sucks and it only makes it worse that we are earning much less doing the same jobs which means that when we get older we would not have put as much money away as we could have. Add to this that SS most likely won't be around and Medicaid will be vastly different, things don't look all that great for us.

Now don't get me wrong, I don't necessarily like SS or medicaid but we are paying for it now which further depletes what goes into our IRA, HSA, or 401K (if "we" even have one). Add to this we are going to have to keep taxes at least at this level to pay for all the BS from the previous generations. This sucks :lol. But I am one of the lucky ones... very lucky.

[Winehole23]

I'm 44. Am I a younger guy?

[CosmicCowboy]

I'm 44. Am I a younger guy?

:lol of course, just not a millenium gen or whatever they call themselves that the article addressed...

I was hoping to get some feedback from our 20-35 crowd....

[Borat Sagyidev]

This guy went into over analysis mode. Yeah, this current young generation is all right.

It is not so much mystery voodoo as to why this current young generation is having some issues and it's not so bad either because it's pretty straight forward.

20 workers to 1 retiree when SS first started
2 workers to 1 retiree within the coming years.

The young genereation is going ot have to pay off baby boomer retirement whether it is SS, medicare or consumer prices, and that is a crippling outlook. It's already pretty evident at the current time.

Australia's solution was to import more foreign workers. 25% of their population is foreign born. They have no high unemployment, had no housing crash and no financial market collapse.

The younger generation will realize this when they in control and since they tend to be more open to other people it will likely happen. So yeah, it's alright.

[DarkReign]

I am on the 2nd page and just want to point out that I would like to punch every person in the face who had their picture taken for this article.

No wonder you dont have a job, emo kids. Maybe giving an outward appearance of maturity and seriousness would go a long way in the interview process, you self-obsessed egomaniac. "Look at me, I am soooo individual with my cool haircut and not-fitting clothes. Im an individual, I standout, I am different."

Yeah...you arent and you dont, fuck-head. You just look ridiculous and childish, not exactly traits employers are looking for no matter what your degree says.

[DarkReign]

http://images.nymag.com/news/features/mygeneration111024_btn_560.jpg

"I dont have a job! Waaaah!"

I mean, seriously? Most people cant determine your gender much less get a general idea of your professionalism.

[DarkReign]

http://images.nymag.com/images/2/promotional/11/10/week4/cover111024_250.jpg

Once a-fucking-gain...

Theyre confused?! I am fucking confused by their confusion.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Baby boomers had better keep voting as they leave the power structure because that particular generation is not going to forget the bed that was made nor how it was handled.

The health care bill is being mostly funded by forcing millenials to buy health insurance. That starts in 2013 and is going to piss off quite a few people. Its pretty obvious that the current power structure has a place for them. Not all of them are stupid.

[DarkReign]

Jesus H Christ.

This jackass is two friends in.

Friend #1: Majored in English...English, people. Post grad in Environmental Studies.
Friend #2: Was a math whiz in high school, got to college and realized (as most do) that you suck compared to others, so what did he decide to change his major to, you ask? Fucking poetry. Poetry...seriously. From "Im a math whiz!" to "Edgar Allen Poe is so overrated." in less than 4 years. Here's some prose for you...

Youre a douchebag.
-Anonymous

[Borat Sagyidev]

Baby boomers had better keep voting as they leave the power structure because that particular generation is not going to forget the bed that was made nor how it was handled.

The health care bill is being mostly funded by forcing millenials to buy health insurance. That starts in 2013 and is going to piss off quite a few people. Its pretty obvious that the current power structure has a place for them. Not all of them are stupid.


Yup, not that they don't deserve a good retirement. But if they want it, we're going to have to bring in more scary immigrants x10.

If they put up barriers, bring on the death panels. Me or my kids will not pay for their failures.

[RandomGuy]

I am on the 2nd page and just want to point out that I would like to punch every person in the face who had their picture taken for this article.

No wonder you dont have a job, emo kids. Maybe giving an outward appearance of maturity and seriousness would go a long way in the interview process, you self-obsessed egomaniac. "Look at me, I am soooo individual with my cool haircut and not-fitting clothes. Im an individual, I standout, I am different."

Yeah...you arent and you dont, fuck-head. You just look ridiculous and childish, not exactly traits employers are looking for no matter what your degree says.


And these children that you spit on
As they try to change their worlds
Are immune to your consultations
They're quite aware of what they're going through

:toast

[RandomGuy]

Lines from the song's second verse were used in the opening of the 1985 film The Breakfast Club:
And these children that you spit on
As they try to change their worlds
Are immune to your consultations
They're quite aware of what they're going through...

Fascinating. Don't remember that.

[Winehole23]

The lifestyles detailed in the article are not familiar to me. I have been unemployed for about one month total in my entire working career. Moving back in with my parents, though technically possible and in fact once offered, was and remains disagreeable to ponder, no disrespect intended to my dear mother and father.

They had to put up with me for eighteen years and paid for my college deliquency for another; that's quite enough. It's better this way. Maybe if one of them gets too old and needs help around the house, I'd consider moving back in for a spell.

In retrospect it's lucky for them and me I didn't accept the hospitality on offer, so I guess you might say I can't really relate to the person who has been sidelined by circumstances, who can't really afford to decline the generosity of parents short of personal destitution.

[Winehole23]

(roll them bones)

[DarkReign]

@ RG

While I believe your words to be true (or Bowie's), doesnt make it any less true that the lowering of their expectations (as described by the author) is exactly the defeatist attitude they pretend to not have.

Theyll be good little drones, today or tomorrow, but some day. All nice and defeated even before they were actually, you know, stepped on in real life.

To have real epiphanies in life, IMO, you must fail. You must fail, you must struggle, you must try and not succeed.

These kids havent even hit 30 yet and their mental fortitude on career expectations have already been dashed because their degree choice was frivolous and they took out a student loan.

Whoopety-fucking-do.

Those arent problems, those are hurdles. Very short hurdles, you couldnt limbo under those hurdles.

Meanwhile, those who want it, are climbing buildings to get it. Theyre low-hanging fruit suited to man a desk in nowhere corporate America, day-dreaming about (apparently) their basket-weaving class later that night. Hmmm, I wonder if this pervasive self-defeatist, distracted attitude spills over into the work environment?

I wonder.

[DarkReign]

Life is easy.

Orient yourself into a chosen direction.
Go like a bat out of hell with no exceptions.

Youve just won, congrats.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Life is easy.

Orient yourself into a chosen direction.
Go like a bat out of hell with no exceptions.

Youve just won, congrats.

Is this what you tell yourself? Maybe if you repeat it enough it will become true.

[RandomGuy]

@ RG

While I believe your words to be true (or Bowie's), doesnt make it any less true that the lowering of their expectations (as described by the author) is exactly the defeatist attitude they pretend to not have.

Theyll be good little drones, today or tomorrow, but some day. All nice and defeated even before they were actually, you know, stepped on in real life.

To have real epiphanies in life, IMO, you must fail. You must fail, you must struggle, you must try and not succeed.

These kids havent even hit 30 yet and their mental fortitude on career expectations have already been dashed because their degree choice was frivolous and they took out a student loan.

Whoopety-fucking-do.

Those arent problems, those are hurdles. Very short hurdles, you couldnt limbo under those hurdles.

Meanwhile, those who want it, are climbing buildings to get it. Theyre low-hanging fruit suited to man a desk in nowhere corporate America, day-dreaming about (apparently) their basket-weaving class later that night. Hmmm, I wonder if this pervasive self-defeatist, distracted attitude spills over into the work environment?

I wonder.

Heh, I don't entirely disagree. I thought the bowie quote was apt, as I am now at the age where I can start wagging my own finger at "those damn kids", and your statements remind me that people have been saying that since ancient Greece and probably before. Still, the kids muddle on.

As one of the first of the boomer's kids and the first generation of Americans to enter that stagnation of living standards, I can understand their disappointment. I think we sensed that a bit as reflected in the first wave of mopy, self-absorbed music that was running as an undercurrent in pop music in the mid-late eighties.

That kind of gave way to some of the angry grunge in the 1990's, as we followed through our collective emotional dealing.

Maybe I am over-analysing, who knows. Fun to speculate at.

[Winehole23]

Focus and passion are hardly irrelevant.

[greyforest]

@ RG

These kids havent even hit 30 yet and their mental fortitude on career expectations have already been dashed because their degree choice was frivolous and they took out a student loan.

Whoopety-fucking-do.

Those arent problems, those are hurdles. Very short hurdles, you couldnt limbo under those hurdles.

You are very unknowledgable.

Some of these people have nearly $200,000 in debt. Student debt cannot be erased by bankruptcy.

The idea that a college degree will pay for itself turned out to be a lie perpetuated by pretty much everybody, and now that college grads have graduated in to the worst economy since 1929 nobody knows what the fuck to do because the only people who worked during the great depression are all dead or extremely elderly.

[RandomGuy]

Honestly, my financial life is kind of fucked, from taking too long to finish school, my dad got fucked because he worked for three different companies that went under, taking any penion/retirement he might have had with them.

It is almost too late for me, but I will damn well be sitting down with my boys at some point and showing them the kinds of financial planning I never got at age 12-19.

I think a lot of people are going to realize that they are living beyong their means, and we are going to see a sustained pullback in consumer activity as a result. The ecomomy will putter along as a result, in a kind of self-feeding cycle.

A host of things have come crashing together, globalization, automation, bubbles, etc, to create some rather new circumstances we have never faced before.

It really does suck to be under 30 at this point. Sorry.

40-ish works out well, because the boomers are getting to old to work, and a lot of entities need skilled, experienced workers to step into the jobs vacated by those retiring. It will cascade down a bit to the entry-level jobs at some point, but by then the economy will have stagnated for a good chunk.

[DarkReign]

Is this what you tell yourself? Maybe if you repeat it enough it will become true.

Dont have to, I live it everyday, friend.

Never went to college, never felt I had to.

EDITED: Nevermind. Isnt worth it.

[CosmicCowboy]

All this "lowered expectation" shit certainly gives me pause since part of my retirement plan has always been that when I got ready to downsize that my current house would sell for a shitload of money. If the generation behind us doesn't give a shit and care about "stuff" then who is going to buy it?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Honestly, my financial life is kind of fucked, from taking too long to finish school, my dad got fucked because he worked for three different companies that went under, taking any penion/retirement he might have had with them.

It is almost too late for me, but I will damn well be sitting down with my boys at some point and showing them the kinds of financial planning I never got at age 12-19.

I think a lot of people are going to realize that they are living beyong their means, and we are going to see a sustained pullback in consumer activity as a result. The ecomomy will putter along as a result, in a kind of self-feeding cycle.

A host of things have come crashing together, globalization, automation, bubbles, etc, to create some rather new circumstances we have never faced before.

It really does suck to be under 30 at this point. Sorry.

40-ish works out well, because the boomers are getting to old to work, and a lot of entities need skilled, experienced workers to step into the jobs vacated by those retiring. It will cascade down a bit to the entry-level jobs at some point, but by then the economy will have stagnated for a good chunk.

The overwhelmingly largest and draining demographic is dying off. I do not believe this to be the case in the long run but unfortunately its going to get worse before it gets better.

Things are going to change. I can feel it. This younger generation works very hard when given a task. What people like DR do not understand is that attitudes such as his are just conditioning them to reject the systems and values of their forebears.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

All this "lowered expectation" shit certainly gives me pause since part of my retirement plan has always been that when I got ready to downsize that my current house would sell for a shitload of money. If the generation behind us doesn't give a shit and care about "stuff" then who is going to buy it?

The whole real estate market of the last 30 years has been unsustainable. Real estate values for CENTURIES have been very closely related to income. The jerrymandering and then exploitation of markets needed to stop.

At some point a house went from an asset to an investment and that is just not sustainable.

[101A]

DR

Oh. Holy. Shit.

:lmao

[101A]

You are very unknowledgable.

Some of these people have nearly $200,000 in debt. Student debt cannot be erased by bankruptcy.

The idea that a college degree will pay for itself turned out to be a lie perpetuated by pretty much everybody, and now that college grads have graduated in to the worst economy since 1929 nobody knows what the fuck to do because the only people who worked during the great depression are all dead or extremely elderly.

Poetry degree?

Seriously. If you have debt from "earning" a poetry degree, Darwin should have had his way with you long ago. Poetry degrees are for people who have rich parents, and jobs in the family business BEFORE they pick a major.

[CosmicCowboy]

The whole real estate market of the last 30 years has been unsustainable. Real estate values for CENTURIES have been very closely related to income. The jerrymandering and then exploitation of markets needed to stop.

At some point a house went from an asset to an investment and that is just not sustainable.

Eh, I considered mine to be an investment. Oh well. Worst case I'll doze the house and build condos there.

[RandomGuy]

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 15 (14 members and 1 guests)
RandomGuy, clambake, 101A, CosmicCowboy, CuckingFunt, ploto, Borat Sagyidev, Y.H., Bartleby, redzero, Drachen+, greyforest, DarkReign, boutons_deux

Wow, havne't seen that many in a Politics thread in a while.

[CuckingFunt]

Life is easy.

Orient yourself into a chosen direction.
Go like a bat out of hell with no exceptions.

Youve just won, congrats.

Good that that's worked for you. It doesn't for everyone. And it's not always because of their haircut.

[ploto]

It actually did not produce real self esteem. What it created was a bunch of people who think they are better at things than they actually are and who fall apart and give up when the truth finally hits them in the face.

I am not in the 20-30 group but I have many relatives and co-workers who are. The biggest issue I see with many of them is that they expect it all immediately. They expect the house their parents took 25 years to own. They think they should make what supervisors make who have been there 25 years. They overspend so much, especially on gadgets. I survive with a plain cell phone and 10-year-old mid-range car, and they buy every new I-Phone and have a 2-year-old SUV with a 6-year payment plan. I did not even have cable TV (and basic at that) until 7 years after I graduated from college. I continue to this day to bring my lunch to work- always have- while they spend about $10 to go out to lunch everyday. Many of them have no idea how to live frugally. They think they deserve it all.

[Borat Sagyidev]

All this "lowered expectation" shit certainly gives me pause since part of my retirement plan has always been that when I got ready to downsize that my current house would sell for a shitload of money. If the generation behind us doesn't give a shit and care about "stuff" then who is going to buy it?

You honestly think the problem is that they don't care about stuff?

You know what people my age don't care about?
Social Security and Medicare

because you're generation has turned essential things like housing and retirement into investment schemes with grandiose failure. You confusing apathy to participate in your generations grand f* ups as not caring.

It's like almost any time a baby boomer talks you could just replace it with diarrhea coming out of their mouth to the same effect.

[RandomGuy]

All this "lowered expectation" shit certainly gives me pause since part of my retirement plan has always been that when I got ready to downsize that my current house would sell for a shitload of money. If the generation behind us doesn't give a shit and care about "stuff" then who is going to buy it?

I think we are, in general going to scale back our housing expectations quite a lot.

uGeppkckVeo

Houses for the cost of a mid-sized sedan.

Prolly drive my wife nuts...

If houses don't get the kinds of returns they did, why spend money on it?

Who needs a 30 year mortgage for something like this? Better to stick the extra cash into an IRA.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Dont have to, I live it everyday, friend.

Never went to college, never felt I had to.

EDITED: Nevermind. Isnt worth it.

Because something worked for you 30 years ago, its going to work for everyone everywhere? Your blanket dismissals are cute and all but just smack of naivete.

[CosmicCowboy]

You honestly think the problem is that they don't care about stuff?

You know what people my age don't care about?
Social Security and Medicare

because you're generation has turned essential things like housing and retirement into investment schemes with grandiose failure. You confusing apathy to participate in your generations grand f* ups as not caring.

It's like almost any time a baby boomer talks you could just replace it with diarrhea coming out of their mouth to the same effect.

So go ahead and get it over and shoot yourself you little bitch. WaaaWaaaWaaa

[RandomGuy]

You know what people my age don't care about?
Social Security and Medicare

You should. You will be paying for it. :lol

Hell, you still might even get to collect some of it.

Thank god for all those children of illegal immigrants. Yeah, I went there.

[Drachen]

I am 31 and I feel differently than these kids, which is not to say that the economy isn't kicking my ass. The difference here is that I have an internal locus of control (yes I knew that term before reading the article). Additionally, in my early twenties I made some very stupid decisions/mistakes and I guess that I have felt that all of my struggles have been some kind of payback for those personal mistakes (though they are 8-10 years ago). I understand that is a little self-defeatist in nature (and I don't have a problem with self-confidence), but it is the way I think about it. It is also literally true to some extent because I have to answer certain questions on an application that others don't. All I can do is work my butt off, educate myself, and keep trying.

However, that excuse is starting to fade. 1.75 degrees, 2 kids, a wife, and a house later, I am a far different person than I was a decade ago. Basically, the professional stagnation of the last 5 years (and the non-responsiveness to my inquiries into the job market) is frustrating.

I do, however, realize that I should cherish the fact that I have a good job and that I am not in financial dire straits (at least until I graduate - LOL) and I do, but I am far more ambitious than my current position and - financial rewards notwithstanding - I need a different job just so I don't kill myself.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

It actually did not produce real self esteem. What it created was a bunch of people who think they are better at things than they actually are and who fall apart and give up when the truth finally hits them in the face.

I am not in the 20-30 group but I have many relatives and co-workers who are. The biggest issue I see with many of them is that they expect it all immediately. They expect the house their parents took 25 years to own. They think they should make what supervisors make who have been there 25 years. They overspend so much, especially on gadgets. I survive with a plain cell phone and 10-year-old mid-range car, and they buy every new I-Phone and have a 2-year-old SUV with a 6-year payment plan. I did not even have cable TV (and basic at that) until 7 years after I graduated from college. I continue to this day to bring my lunch to work- always have- while they spend about $10 to go out to lunch everyday. Many of them have no idea how to live frugally. They think they deserve it all.

They expect it all immediately? What do you think all the mounting debt derives from. Get it now pay later.

I think some serious generational introspection is needed. The current power structures policy making has created these problems. The attitudes of 20 year olds are not what need to be evaluated.

Our leadership sucks ass in this country. There is a fairly consistent demographic in it.

[Borat Sagyidev]

You should. You will be paying for it. :lol

Hell, you still might even get to collect some of it.

Thank god for all those children of illegal immigrants. Yeah, I went there.

I agree. We need more.

[RandomGuy]

They expect it all immediately? What do you think all the mounting debt derives from. Get it now pay later.

I think some serious generational introspection is needed. The current power structures policy making has created these problems. The attitudes of 20 year olds are not what need to be evaluated.

Our leadership sucks ass in this country. There is a fairly consistent demographic in it.

I agree. Those 40-70 year old assholes fucking everything up...

FYI, a house for $2,000:

qghZ2ao7GKM

Heh, I wish y'all luck in fixing this shit that we have sorely broken. Sorry. Get with my 8 and 5 year olds to plan a solution. (not being snarky, just thinking ahead, you will need allies)

[CuckingFunt]

Incidentally, I think it's important for twenty-somethings to be realistic about the job market they'll be entering and the fact that a degree in poetry likely isn't going to result in a high paying job right out of college. There does seem to be a sense of entitlement in college aged students that is even more pronounced than in my own generation and that I think is far removed from reality. Too much time spent moaning about what one "deserves," for instance. (Though, admittedly, it's hard to blame them entirely when for generations this country has preached that a college degree will lead to a good job).

That said, I think it's unfortunate that anyone should be punished or placed at a distinct disadvantage for choosing to pursue an educational field that's not aimed at dollar signs. As I know I've said around here before, education should not just be a means to an end. To blame someone for choosing a "frivolous" degree is a tad ridiculous, as is telling them to suck it up and quit bitching while looking for a job. Just because you (or I, or anyone else) don't personally find a degree in poetry valuable doesn't mean that the person who's gotten one doesn't have a legitimate reason to be disappointed that their hard work may have been for naught.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Incidentally, I think it's important for twenty-somethings to be realistic about the job market they'll be entering and the fact that a degree in poetry likely isn't going to result in a high paying job right out of college. There does seem to be a sense of entitlement in college aged students that is even more pronounced than in my own generation and that I think is far removed from reality. Too much time spent moaning about what one "deserves," for instance. (Though, admittedly, it's hard to blame them entirely when for generations this country has preached that a college degree will lead to a good job).

That said, I think it's unfortunate that anyone should be punished or placed at a distinct disadvantage for choosing to pursue an educational field that's not aimed at dollar signs. As I know I've said around here before, education should not just be a means to an end. To blame someone for choosing a "frivolous" degree is a tad ridiculous, as is telling them to suck it up and quit bitching while looking for a job. Just because you (or I, or anyone else) don't personally find a degree in poetry valuable doesn't mean that the person who's gotten one doesn't have a legitimate reason to be disappointed that their hard work may have been for naught.

I know people with decent GPA's and mechanical engineering degrees that are having to go back to school because there choices are work for free or don't work at all.

I know its fun to point at the sociology degree holder and ridicule but its tough all over.

[CosmicCowboy]

I agree. Those 40-70 year old assholes fucking everything up...

FYI, a house for $2,000:

qghZ2ao7GKM

Heh, I wish y'all luck in fixing this shit that we have sorely broken. Sorry. Get with my 8 and 5 year olds to plan a solution. (not being snarky, just thinking ahead, you will need allies)

Yeah, my retirement house with be a modest sized but super high tech off the grid house.

[Borat Sagyidev]

Yeah, my retirement house with be a modest sized but super high tech off the grid house.

:lol
super high tech
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_cFt9mEgmjbc/SWIoSfKI8tI/AAAAAAAACgY/swn2at7VVxo/s400/image005.jpg

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I agree. Those 40-70 year old assholes fucking everything up...

FYI, a house for $2,000:

qghZ2ao7GKM

Heh, I wish y'all luck in fixing this shit that we have sorely broken. Sorry. Get with my 8 and 5 year olds to plan a solution. (not being snarky, just thinking ahead, you will need allies)

meh. That smacks of a cop out. that age is just at the front end of the power structure. I am talking about those that have entrenched themselves over the last 30 years many of which are already out the back end.

You are in a position of opportunity.

The minimum age of president has somewhat been an unconscious delineator and its obvious if you look at the history of ages in political and

[DarrinS]

What a bunch of "poor me" douchebags. I guess the entrepreneurial spirit is dead. When an entire generation is waiting for someone else to hand them something, it doesn't bode well for the future of our republic.

[RandomGuy]

What a bunch of "poor me" douchebags. I guess the entrepreneurial spirit is dead. When an entire generation is waiting for someone else to hand them something, it doesn't bode well for the future of our republic.

You didn't really read the entire article, did you?

(...he says not really shocked that the answer will be "no", and equally expecting no answer at all)

[DarkReign]

You are very unknowledgable.

Sure.


Some of these people have nearly $200,000 in debt. Student debt cannot be erased by bankruptcy.

Bankruptcy isnt usually an option for most people. The only people I know who are declared bankruptcy are the super-rich (...and its only Chapter 13 on a failed business) and those who cannot manage money further than their front pocket.

Both of which I have no sympathy for.


The idea that a college degree will pay for itself turned out to be a lie perpetuated by pretty much everybody, and now that college grads have graduated in to the worst economy since 1929 nobody knows what the fuck to do because the only people who worked during the great depression are all dead or extremely elderly.

I graduated from high school in 1998. I am only mildly older than you (by the sounds of it) and those being described in the article.

Here is what I know:

I am from a middle-class to upper-middle class area. Lots of UAW kids, a few Automotive Executives kids (who had awesome parties).

I am a UAW kid, with a father that worked every moment of everyday of his short life as an electrician. He could never afford to send me or my two brothers to college.

You had two choices: Get a scholarship or take out loans.

Even then, I did not see the logic in taking student loans. I knew from a very young age that there are only a couple ways to become wealthy. The vast majority of the wealthy are all business owners/inventors.

IIRC, in Europe, in order to open a business, one must be a professional of that business (ie Start a residential electrical business, the owner must be a master electrician). Dont know if thats true, but just what I heard (albeit years ago). In the US, not so. Lucky me.

I have had a job since I was 11 years old. I used to work 20 hours a week washing dishes at an Italian restaurant. My dad was always doing side jobs, so I worked with him, too, throughout my young adult life. From the restaurant, I worked everywhere. Burger King, McDonalds, multiple restaurants and grocery stores doing anything and everything. This all before I graduated high school.

I graduated barely (21.5 credits), mostly because I do not like to get up early (big shout out to the guy who used to wake me up every morning), or attend school (older friends my whole life, they graduated 3 years earlier than me, that sucked) or be sober (woo-ha!). I immediately hired into an $8.00 an hour job welding brackets and bullshit by the truckload. I was too busy getting high in auto shop so I never actually welded before in my life.

Seeing as the owner didnt much give a shit about anything but getting product out the door, it was basically a job-party. Fit right in.

Wages blew, I was going nowhere and knew it (besides, had to get up too early). So my revelation was to become a furniture salesman. What a joke. 20 years old, wearing a suit and pitching lines rehearsed in training about products I never cared about. Spent most of my time at lunch and smoking outside. Failed miserably, was fired for under-performance. That was the first and only time in my life I had been fired.

Didnt know what to do at that point. I was kicked out by my father when I was 17 ("...got in the way of his pussy" was how he put it), had been living with the same roommate up until this point. His girlfriend got pregnant, they were getting married and moving (which obviously did not include me).

No job, nowhere to live, no contact with my father in years (Regrets, Ive had a few)...yeah, thats failure. Thats destitute, thats desperate, thats fucking life.

What do you do? Cry? Whine? Moan? Complain and blame?

Or was it that I didnt take school seriously enough, that I didnt respect my father's new wife enough (no matter how much I despised her), that I never took one job seriously enough to completion?

Was it the world's fault or mine? Easy answer.

So I got a job at some small shop sweeping the floors for $8 an hour at age 21. In 6 years, I was and am currently running that company. Finally, I committed to something. Finally, I chose a direction and went for it.

I was sweeping floors. One day I was asked "Know anything about computers?" Im a gamer, "Sure do, whatcha need?" They needed a guy who was willing to be trained in CAD software to detail prints. The engineers were/are busy designing this stuff, not making prints for the fab shop. This was a HUGE moment in my life, I thought it was big then seeing as I would actually work at fucking desk!, but looking back on it, it was much much more than that.

I met my boss (remember, I was 21). He was 18 years old. Dean's list every year at Kettering Engineering (aka GM Tech). Brilliant little fucker, he was, cocky too. But I would be too if I had mastered Calc2 at 16 years old. His first question "Ever worked in AutoCAD before?" Nope. "Drafting class?" Sure, but I never paid attention (ie skipped it so I could party). "know anything about computers?" That I do, could build one start to finish, BIOS, flashing, operating system (Windows of course), I can do that.

He was going back to school in 2 months. Kettering is extremely hard to get into. The curriculum calls for 6 months working, 6 months at school, or some such schedule (cant remember). Either way, he was going back to school. I had 2 months to learn two new programs (AutoCAD and Solidworks) and the basics of engineering, detailing and tolerancing with ZERO prior experience.

I slept at work, literally, in my car on occasion. My mother let me stay with her every now and then to make sure I was eating, so I could shower, etc.

He left for school and I took over his job. The first batch of prints that hit the floor, I was a nervous wreck. I am not a math guru, furthest I ever went was Trig, which I bombed out of because it was 1st hour (again, partying). Cosign, blablabla, none of it made any sense, yet these machinists knew how to calculate such things on a calculator and would come to me with questions about shit I didnt really understand.

You know what? I fucking nailed it. Fucking nailed it. Homerun, out of the stadium. 4 machines from scratch were designed, detailed (me), assembled (a little me), run-off and shipped while Whiz Kid was at school. Every print that hit the floor was mine and mine alone. Were there problems? Oh yeah. Did I cost the company money? Maybe a couple grand, in total. Did over $1.5 million dollars in equipment get invoiced with my initials in the title blocks? You fucking bet.

Big accomplishment for me then, not so much now looking back on it. A monkey can detail a print, but I didnt know that at the time. But regardless, I showed potential, drive, commitment and initiative.

The next thing I was asked to do was Quality Control at the company's second plant. This plant was/is small compared. I was sent to a 2 week class to learn the inspection software (as I already knew about prints, tolerancing, GD&T, etc) as the owner's partner and him had a falling out. The minority owner's son used to do all the ISO certifications, Quality Manuals, inspections and control documents. All of which I knew nothing about.

Started off just writing the inspection programs (thank you video games and scripts!) and then inspecting the parts associated with those programs. Which lead into my introduction to the International Organization for Standardization, ISO for short (you think it would be IOS, but Apple would have pitched a bitch, Im sure). I then had to learn about one thousand acronyms that, to this day, I hate beyond belief. What a fucking charade. Whatever.

At this point, I was making $14 an hour at age 24, I rewrote the Quality Manuals, the Control Documents and worked with the Cert rep on getting our company re-certified (have to do it every year, it sucks). Nailed it. Homerun. More impressive than detailing prints, but again, looking back on it, ISO is a fucking pyramid scheme and anyone who actually likes it enough to do it for a living is a masochist.

Owner can no longer handle running the day-to-day operation of this second plant. His main business is blowing up in a big way whereas as this little shit-shop is losing money every year of its existence. Not much money, less than $100k a year or breaking even, but when your other company is making millions, your priorities shift.

So, he calls a meeting with me (now the Quality Manager), the Plant Manager and the Office Manager and lays it out. "This company is failing, I can no longer do it everyday, I am probably going to shutter it". Fear of God, yes. I had busted my balls, never asked for a raise in my life, was making shit for what I was doing, but really, really enjoyed not having to bust my back to make a decent living as a single male with no children (like my father did and my brothers still do).

The PM and OM were speechless, I was not. I coerced the owner into letting "We 3 Kings" run the day-to-day for one year, possibly two. If it wasnt profitable by then, so be it. This company was his baby, he always referred to it as his 3rd child, he never took a paycheck his entire time as owner. He didnt want to close it, he just couldnt throw money out the window no matter how much he was making with his recently bought second company.

He, surprisingly, agreed.

Ive gone on long enough with this story. Summary from here: Lost money the first year, but showed promise with an expanding customer base (me, on the road, A LOT). Second year, became apparent that the "3 Kings" paradigm wasnt working, too many conflicts of interest (one of the first things the office manager did as a boss was give herself, the plant manager and me a raise. I was finally a salaried employee...first time in my life. $800 gross a week). Owner named me the General Manager in April 2006, 5 years after I was hired as a shop bitch sweeping floors and driving the HiLo, of his company that employed 15 people (16 including me).

It was rough. I had to learn proper accounting, payroll, taxes, business taxes, SBT taxes (Michigan thing, dont ask), 941 Quarterly reports, the difference between an S-Corporation and any other incorporation (pretty cool when youre a small outfit). I had to manage egos who didnt respect me as their boss, I had to fire people, knock people's pay down all while you watched a grown man cry that he will lose his house, I had to fire the Office Manager as she lazy made even worse that she didnt know shit about proper accounting or computers in general. She thought the fax machine was a big deal and hadnt watched one second of TV in 15 years. I cultivated customer relationships with people that were more than twice my age in a business (Automotive) that frowns upon youth in general running shit.

You know what? I fucking nailed it. Homerun, in the seats this time, next time it'll be out of the stadium. I inherited a struggling alley shop that worked from hand-to-mouth job-wise, which had gross sales under $300k and was hemorrhaging money. Today, I turned it into a profitable company with various private and government contracts guaranteeing X amount of dollars in revenue for the next 6+ years (with more to come), that now has gross sales over $2 million dollars, a retirement plan (me), health insurance (me) and employee bonuses twice a year (also me).

I pay more money in personal taxes than most people on this board make in a year, jointly.

Dont fucking tell me about what works and what doesnt, because here is what I know. I work, you dont. With drive, commitment, a little luck and the willingness to completely and utterly disregard your personal life as whole, you will succeed.

There are other ways of achieving the same things, with even better circumstances, I know this. But I do not sympathize with those who think working 9-5, 5 days a week as "working hard".

To this day, even with a profitable company and a cushy lifestyle, this success has driven me to be more successful. I work just as hard if not harder now, longer hours, sleepless nights, bigger company investments and risks. I want more. When that fire burns dim, I will retire a wealthy, and more importantly, happy, satisfied man.

[DarkReign]

Good that that's worked for you. It doesn't for everyone. And it's not always because of their haircut.

Im bald.


Because something worked for you 30 years ago, its going to work for everyone everywhere? Your blanket dismissals are cute and all but just smack of naivete.

Im 31. Its working for me right now in a business that, to say the very least, is cutthroat and full of empty promises that can make and break you overnight.

The streets of metro Detroit are littered with empty buildings and failed promises.

Too many people want it all, right now. They get a promise or a Purchase Order from a large company that tells them they need to expand to fill this order, they do, then the order gets pulled because some Asian/Mexican plant can do it for half price.

I compete directly with the slave labor of the third world. I am winning my battles while the rest of the industry is slowly losing the war.

[Borat Sagyidev]

What a bunch of "poor me" douchebags. I guess the entrepreneurial spirit is dead. When an entire generation is waiting for someone else to hand them something, it doesn't bode well for the future of our republic.

the entire generation doesn't want anything, what they want is the older generation to die off and stop screwing up things on their way out

I could make a screwup list from baby boomers that would span the state
Just for starters sake..

Housing
Medicare
Social Security
NASA
Foreign conflicts
Domestic production

[scott]

I guess it was too long for them to read without getting a participation prize...:toast

Sorry, we're busy working so we can pay for you old farts' Social Security :)

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Sure.



Bankruptcy isnt usually an option for most people. The only people I know who are declared bankruptcy are the super-rich (...and its only Chapter 13 on a failed business) and those who cannot manage money further than their front pocket.

Both of which I have no sympathy for.



I graduated from high school in 1998. I am only mildly older than you (by the sounds of it) and those being described in the article.

Here is what I know:

I am from a middle-class to upper-middle class area. Lots of UAW kids, a few Automotive Executives kids (who had awesome parties).

I am a UAW kid, with a father that worked every moment of everyday of his short life as an electrician. He could never afford to send me or my two brothers to college.

You had two choices: Get a scholarship or take out loans.

Even then, I did not see the logic in taking student loans. I knew from a very young age that there are only a couple ways to become wealthy. The vast majority of the wealthy are all business owners/inventors.

IIRC, in Europe, in order to open a business, one must be a professional of that business (ie Start a residential electrical business, the owner must be a master electrician). Dont know if thats true, but just what I heard (albeit years ago). In the US, not so. Lucky me.

I have had a job since I was 11 years old. I used to work 20 hours a week washing dishes at an Italian restaurant. My dad was always doing side jobs, so I worked with him, too, throughout my young adult life. From the restaurant, I worked everywhere. Burger King, McDonalds, multiple restaurants and grocery stores doing anything and everything. This all before I graduated high school.

I graduated barely (21.5 credits), mostly because I do not like to get up early (big shout out to the guy who used to wake me up every morning), or attend school (older friends my whole life, they graduated 3 years earlier than me, that sucked) or be sober (woo-ha!). I immediately hired into an $8.00 an hour job welding brackets and bullshit by the truckload. I was too busy getting high in auto shop so I never actually welded before in my life.

Seeing as the owner didnt much give a shit about anything but getting product out the door, it was basically a job-party. Fit right in.

Wages blew, I was going nowhere and knew it (besides, had to get up too early). So my revelation was to become a furniture salesman. What a joke. 20 years old, wearing a suit and pitching lines rehearsed in training about products I never cared about. Spent most of my time at lunch and smoking outside. Failed miserably, was fired for under-performance. That was the first and only time in my life I had been fired.

Didnt know what to do at that point. I was kicked out by my father when I was 17 ("...got in the way of his pussy" was how he put it), had been living with the same roommate up until this point. His girlfriend got pregnant, they were getting married and moving (which obviously did not include me).

No job, nowhere to live, no contact with my father in years (Regrets, Ive had a few)...yeah, thats failure. Thats destitute, thats desperate, thats fucking life.

What do you do? Cry? Whine? Moan? Complain and blame?

Or was it that I didnt take school seriously enough, that I didnt respect my father's new wife enough (no matter how much I despised her), that I never took one job seriously enough to completion?

Was it the world's fault or mine? Easy answer.

So I got a job at some small shop sweeping the floors for $8 an hour at age 21. In 6 years, I was and am currently running that company. Finally, I committed to something. Finally, I chose a direction and went for it.

I was sweeping floors. One day I was asked "Know anything about computers?" Im a gamer, "Sure do, whatcha need?" They needed a guy who was willing to be trained in CAD software to detail prints. The engineers were/are busy designing this stuff, not making prints for the fab shop. This was a HUGE moment in my life, I though it was big then seeing as I would actually work at fucking desk!, but looking back on it, it was much much more than that.

I met my boss (remember, I was 21). He was 18 years old. Dean's list every year at Kettering Engineering (aka GM Tech). Brilliant little fucker, he was, cocky too. But I would be too if I had mastered Calc2 at 16 years old. His first question "Ever worked in AutoCAD before?" Nope. "Drafting class?" Sure, but I never paid attention (ie skipped it so I could party). "know anything about computers?" That I do, could build one start to finish, BIOS, flashing, operating system (Windows of course), I can do that.

He was going back to school in 2 months. Kettering is extremely hard to get into. The curriculum calls for 6 months working, 6 months at school, or some such schedule (cant remember). Either way, he was going back to school. I had 2 months to learn two new programs and the basics of engineering, detailing and tolerancing with ZERO prior experience.

I slept at work, literally, in my car on occasion. My mother let me stay with her every now and then to make sure I was eating, so I could shower, etc.

He left for school and I took over his job. The first batch of prints that hit the floor, I was a nervous wreck. I am not a match guru, furthest I ever went was Trig, which I bombed out of because it was 1st hour (again, partying). Cosign, blablabla, none of it made any sense, yet these machinists knew how to calculate such things on a calculator and would come to me with questions about shit I didnt really understand.

You know what? I fucking nailed it. Fucking nailed it. Homerun, out of the stadium. 4 machines from scratch were designed, detailed (me), assembled (a little me), run-off and shipped while Whiz Kid was at school. Every print that hit the floor was mine and mine alone. Were there problems? Oh yeah. Did I cost the company money? Maybe a couple grand, in total. Did over $1.5 million dollars in equipment get invoiced with my initials in the title blocks? You fucking bet.

Big accomplishment for me then, not so much now looking back on it. A monkey can detail a print, but I didnt know that at the time. But regardless, I showed potential, drive, commitment and initiative.

The next thing I was asked to do was Quality Control at the company's second plant. This plant was/is small compared. I was sent to a 2 week class to learn the inspection software (as I already knew about prints, tolerancing, GD&T, etc) as the owner's partner and him had a falling out. The minority owner's son used to do all the ISO certifications, Quality Manuals, inspections and control documents. All of which I knew nothing about.

Started off just writing the inspection programs (thank you video games and scripts!) and then inspecting the parts associated with those programs. Which lead into my introduction to the International Organization for Standardization, ISO for short (you think it would be IOS, but Apple would have pitched a bitch, Im sure). I then had to learn about one thousand acronyms that, to this day, I hate beyond belief. What a fucking charade. Whatever.

At this point, I was making $14 an hour at age 24, I rewrote the Quality Manuals, the Control Documents and worked with the Cert rep on getting our company re-certified (have to do it every year, it sucks). Nailed it. Homerun. More impressive than detailing prints, but again, looking back on it, ISO is a fucking pyramid scheme and anyone who actually likes it enough to do it for a living is a masochist.

Owner can no longer handle running the day-to-day operation of this second plant. His main business is blowing up in a big way whereas as this little shit-shop is losing money every year of its existence. Not much money, less than $100k a year or breaking even, but when your other company is making millions, your priorities shift.

So, he calls a meeting with me (now the Quality Manager), the Plant Manager and the Office Manager and lays it out. "This company is failing, I can no longer do it everyday, I am probably going to shutter it". Fear of God, yes. I had busted my balls, never asked for a raise in my life, was making shit for what I was doing, but really, really enjoyed not having to bust my back to make a decent living as a single male with no children (like my father did and my brothers still do).

The PM and OM were speechless, I was not. I coerced the owner into letting "We 3 Kings" run the day-to-day for one year, possibly two. If it wasnt profitable by then, so be it. This company was his baby, he always referred to it as his 3rd child, he never took a paycheck his entire time as owner. He didnt want to close it, he just couldnt throw money out the window no matter how much he was making with his recently bought second company.

He, surprisingly, agreed.

Ive gone on long enough with this story. Summary from here: Lost money the first year, but showed promise with an expanding customer base (me, on the road, A LOT). Second year, became apparent that the "3 Kings" paradigm wasnt working, too many conflicts of interest (one of the first things the office manager did as a boss was give herself, the plant manager and me a raise. I was finally a salaried employee...first time in my life. $800 gross a week). Owner named me the General Manager in April 2006, 5 years after I was hired as a shop bitch sweeping floors and driving the HiLo, of his company that employed 15 people (16 including me).

It was rough. I had to learn proper accounting, payroll, taxes, business taxes, SBT taxes (Michigan thing, dont ask), 941 Quarterly reports, the difference between an S-Corporation and any other incorporation (pretty cool when youre a small outfit). I had to manage egos who didnt respect me as their boss, I had to fire people, knock people's pay down all while you watched a grown man cry that he will lose his house, I had to fire the Office Manager as she lazy made even worse that she didnt know shit about proper accounting or computers in general. She thought the fax machine was a big deal and hadnt watched one second of TV in 15 years. I cultivated customer relationships with people that were more than twice my age in a business (Automotive) that frowns upon youth in general running shit.

You know what? I fucking nailed it. Homerun, in the seats this time, next time it'll be out of the stadium. I inherited a struggling alley shop that worked from hand-to-mouth job-wise, which had gross sales under $300k and was hemorrhaging money. Today, I turned it into a profitable company with various private and government contracts guaranteeing X amount of dollars in revenue for the next 6+ years (with more to come), that now has gross sales over $2 million dollars, a retirement plan (me), health insurance (me) and employee bonuses twice a year (also me).

I pay more money in personal taxes than most people on this board make in a year, jointly.

Dont fucking tell me about what works and what doesnt, because here is what I know. I work, you dont.

I have some friends that made a ton of money in pharmaceuticals software and they seem to think that because they happened to find a niche that there must be tons of them out there.

One thing noted about this generation is that they are hard working. Thats not the problem but taking shit jobs and hoping to be offered a job for which you are not qualified is not going to have a large success rate.

Don't get me wrong what you did was impressive but you got lucky and I think you know that.

[CuckingFunt]

Sure.



Bankruptcy isnt usually an option for most people. The only people I know who are declared bankruptcy are the super-rich (...and its only Chapter 13 on a failed business) and those who cannot manage money further than their front pocket.

Both of which I have no sympathy for.



I graduated from high school in 1998. I am only mildly older than you (by the sounds of it) and those being described in the article.

Here is what I know:

I am from a middle-class to upper-middle class area. Lots of UAW kids, a few Automotive Executives kids (who had awesome parties).

I am a UAW kid, with a father that worked every moment of everyday of his short life as an electrician. He could never afford to send me or my two brothers to college.

You had two choices: Get a scholarship or take out loans.

Even then, I did not see the logic in taking student loans. I knew from a very young age that there are only a couple ways to become wealthy. The vast majority of the wealthy are all business owners/inventors.

IIRC, in Europe, in order to open a business, one must be a professional of that business (ie Start a residential electrical business, the owner must be a master electrician). Dont know if thats true, but just what I heard (albeit years ago). In the US, not so. Lucky me.

I have had a job since I was 11 years old. I used to work 20 hours a week washing dishes at an Italian restaurant. My dad was always doing side jobs, so I worked with him, too, throughout my young adult life. From the restaurant, I worked everywhere. Burger King, McDonalds, multiple restaurants and grocery stores doing anything and everything. This all before I graduated high school.

I graduated barely (21.5 credits), mostly because I do not like to get up early (big shout out to the guy who used to wake me up every morning), or attend school (older friends my whole life, they graduated 3 years earlier than me, that sucked) or be sober (woo-ha!). I immediately hired into an $8.00 an hour job welding brackets and bullshit by the truckload. I was too busy getting high in auto shop so I never actually welded before in my life.

Seeing as the owner didnt much give a shit about anything but getting product out the door, it was basically a job-party. Fit right in.

Wages blew, I was going nowhere and knew it (besides, had to get up too early). So my revelation was to become a furniture salesman. What a joke. 20 years old, wearing a suit and pitching lines rehearsed in training about products I never cared about. Spent most of my time at lunch and smoking outside. Failed miserably, was fired for under-performance. That was the first and only time in my life I had been fired.

Didnt know what to do at that point. I was kicked out by my father when I was 17 ("...got in the way of his pussy" was how he put it), had been living with the same roommate up until this point. His girlfriend got pregnant, they were getting married and moving (which obviously did not include me).

No job, nowhere to live, no contact with my father in years (Regrets, Ive had a few)...yeah, thats failure. Thats destitute, thats desperate, thats fucking life.

What do you do? Cry? Whine? Moan? Complain and blame?

Or was it that I didnt take school seriously enough, that I didnt respect my father's new wife enough (no matter how much I despised her), that I never took one job seriously enough to completion?

Was it the world's fault or mine? Easy answer.

So I got a job at some small shop sweeping the floors for $8 an hour at age 21. In 6 years, I was and am currently running that company. Finally, I committed to something. Finally, I chose a direction and went for it.

I was sweeping floors. One day I was asked "Know anything about computers?" Im a gamer, "Sure do, whatcha need?" They needed a guy who was willing to be trained in CAD software to detail prints. The engineers were/are busy designing this stuff, not making prints for the fab shop. This was a HUGE moment in my life, I though it was big then seeing as I would actually work at fucking desk!, but looking back on it, it was much much more than that.

I met my boss (remember, I was 21). He was 18 years old. Dean's list every year at Kettering Engineering (aka GM Tech). Brilliant little fucker, he was, cocky too. But I would be too if I had mastered Calc2 at 16 years old. His first question "Ever worked in AutoCAD before?" Nope. "Drafting class?" Sure, but I never paid attention (ie skipped it so I could party). "know anything about computers?" That I do, could build one start to finish, BIOS, flashing, operating system (Windows of course), I can do that.

He was going back to school in 2 months. Kettering is extremely hard to get into. The curriculum calls for 6 months working, 6 months at school, or some such schedule (cant remember). Either way, he was going back to school. I had 2 months to learn two new programs and the basics of engineering, detailing and tolerancing with ZERO prior experience.

I slept at work, literally, in my car on occasion. My mother let me stay with her every now and then to make sure I was eating, so I could shower, etc.

He left for school and I took over his job. The first batch of prints that hit the floor, I was a nervous wreck. I am not a match guru, furthest I ever went was Trig, which I bombed out of because it was 1st hour (again, partying). Cosign, blablabla, none of it made any sense, yet these machinists knew how to calculate such things on a calculator and would come to me with questions about shit I didnt really understand.

You know what? I fucking nailed it. Fucking nailed it. Homerun, out of the stadium. 4 machines from scratch were designed, detailed (me), assembled (a little me), run-off and shipped while Whiz Kid was at school. Every print that hit the floor was mine and mine alone. Were there problems? Oh yeah. Did I cost the company money? Maybe a couple grand, in total. Did over $1.5 million dollars in equipment get invoiced with my initials in the title blocks? You fucking bet.

Big accomplishment for me then, not so much now looking back on it. A monkey can detail a print, but I didnt know that at the time. But regardless, I showed potential, drive, commitment and initiative.

The next thing I was asked to do was Quality Control at the company's second plant. This plant was/is small compared. I was sent to a 2 week class to learn the inspection software (as I already knew about prints, tolerancing, GD&T, etc) as the owner's partner and him had a falling out. The minority owner's son used to do all the ISO certifications, Quality Manuals, inspections and control documents. All of which I knew nothing about.

Started off just writing the inspection programs (thank you video games and scripts!) and then inspecting the parts associated with those programs. Which lead into my introduction to the International Organization for Standardization, ISO for short (you think it would be IOS, but Apple would have pitched a bitch, Im sure). I then had to learn about one thousand acronyms that, to this day, I hate beyond belief. What a fucking charade. Whatever.

At this point, I was making $14 an hour at age 24, I rewrote the Quality Manuals, the Control Documents and worked with the Cert rep on getting our company re-certified (have to do it every year, it sucks). Nailed it. Homerun. More impressive than detailing prints, but again, looking back on it, ISO is a fucking pyramid scheme and anyone who actually likes it enough to do it for a living is a masochist.

Owner can no longer handle running the day-to-day operation of this second plant. His main business is blowing up in a big way whereas as this little shit-shop is losing money every year of its existence. Not much money, less than $100k a year or breaking even, but when your other company is making millions, your priorities shift.

So, he calls a meeting with me (now the Quality Manager), the Plant Manager and the Office Manager and lays it out. "This company is failing, I can no longer do it everyday, I am probably going to shutter it". Fear of God, yes. I had busted my balls, never asked for a raise in my life, was making shit for what I was doing, but really, really enjoyed not having to bust my back to make a decent living as a single male with no children (like my father did and my brothers still do).

The PM and OM were speechless, I was not. I coerced the owner into letting "We 3 Kings" run the day-to-day for one year, possibly two. If it wasnt profitable by then, so be it. This company was his baby, he always referred to it as his 3rd child, he never took a paycheck his entire time as owner. He didnt want to close it, he just couldnt throw money out the window no matter how much he was making with his recently bought second company.

He, surprisingly, agreed.

Ive gone on long enough with this story. Summary from here: Lost money the first year, but showed promise with an expanding customer base (me, on the road, A LOT). Second year, became apparent that the "3 Kings" paradigm wasnt working, too many conflicts of interest (one of the first things the office manager did as a boss was give herself, the plant manager and me a raise. I was finally a salaried employee...first time in my life. $800 gross a week). Owner named me the General Manager in April 2006, 5 years after I was hired as a shop bitch sweeping floors and driving the HiLo, of his company that employed 15 people (16 including me).

It was rough. I had to learn proper accounting, payroll, taxes, business taxes, SBT taxes (Michigan thing, dont ask), 941 Quarterly reports, the difference between an S-Corporation and any other incorporation (pretty cool when youre a small outfit). I had to manage egos who didnt respect me as their boss, I had to fire people, knock people's pay down all while you watched a grown man cry that he will lose his house, I had to fire the Office Manager as she lazy made even worse that she didnt know shit about proper accounting or computers in general. She thought the fax machine was a big deal and hadnt watched one second of TV in 15 years. I cultivated customer relationships with people that were more than twice my age in a business (Automotive) that frowns upon youth in general running shit.

You know what? I fucking nailed it. Homerun, in the seats this time, next time it'll be out of the stadium. I inherited a struggling alley shop that worked from hand-to-mouth job-wise, which had gross sales under $300k and was hemorrhaging money. Today, I turned it into a profitable company with various private and government contracts guaranteeing X amount of dollars in revenue for the next 6+ years (with more to come), that now has gross sales over $2 million dollars, a retirement plan (me), health insurance (me) and employee bonuses twice a year (also me).

I pay more money in personal taxes than most people on this board make in a year, jointly.

Dont fucking tell me about what works and what doesnt, because here is what I know. I work, you dont.

Congratulations that you got your shit together and are doing well now. I mean that genuinely. But I'm not entirely sure what your situation has to do with the people being discussed in the OP's article.

By and large the subjects of the article aren't stoner ne'er-do-wells who barely scraped through high school before begging for handouts. There's nothing in the article that indicates a universal unwillingness on their part to work hard or to seek employment outside of their field. It really has more to do with the reality check that comes from learning that everything they'd heard growing up (that a college degree automatically leads to a good job, for instance) isn't proving true. As I said early on, they certainly deserve some of the blame for their naivety and/or their sense of entitlement, but it's not really fair to get so down on folks for having exactly the expectations they've been led to.

[Vici]

I know people with decent GPA's and mechanical engineering degrees that are having to go back to school because there choices are work for free or don't work at all.

I know its fun to point at the sociology degree holder and ridicule but its tough all over.

I know people with law degrees that can't find anything. The one's that are getting hired are fighting for 50k jobs where 2-3 years ago the same job paid 100k. They took out their loans expecting the 100k job. Same with my old field. The money dried up when the economy crashed so we all were forced to retrain ourselves to do other things. I'm lucky and found a great job. Most of my peers and friends have not.


What a bunch of "poor me" douchebags. I guess the entrepreneurial spirit is dead. When an entire generation is waiting for someone else to hand them something, it doesn't bode well for the future of our republic.

Out of curiosity. Say someone has a great idea for a business like a recent college grad but lacks the resources to start their business. How likely is it that they are going to get a loan? How likely would it have been before the crash? Are banks lending more, the same, or less money than 2-3 years ago? Are Angel investors more likely to give the loans to people in the 25-35 age range or 35+?

I'm not saying it can't be done but it's not as easy as it used to be. That's the whole point.

[DarkReign]

Congratulations that you got your shit together and are doing well now. I mean that genuinely. But I'm not entirely sure what your situation has to do with the people being discussed in the OP's article.

...that these select individuals chose frivolous degrees then cried about no work after they took out loans to get those useless degrees?

...that their personal choices leading up to those degree decisions were unclear, misguided, misjudged and completely devoid of any real world application that could net you a real career?

...that I sincerely doubt their commitment to begin with, seeing as I deal with young people day in and day out? Some with just as useless degrees as those mentioned in the article?

I employ 3 individuals with college degrees. One with a master's in Theater, one with Communications and the other I cant even remember (he is a bit older, so it doesnt really hold this argument anyway). All of them express regret that they didnt do something else with their college time and I can understand that.

But these 3 dont lament their lot in life, they work 60 hours a week, have health insurance, a retirement plan and vacation once a year where ever they want to go.


By and large the subjects of the article aren't stoner ne'er-do-wells who barely scraped through high school before begging for handouts.

If by handouts, do you mean me? The auto industry? Something else? Please clarify.


There's nothing in the article that indicates a universal unwillingness on their part to work hard or to seek employment outside of their field. It really has more to do with the reality check that comes from learning that everything they'd heard growing up (that a college degree automatically leads to a good job, for instance) isn't proving true. As I said early on, they certainly deserve some of the blame for their naivety and/or their sense of entitlement, but it's not really fair to get so down on folks for having exactly the expectations they've been led to.

I grew up with these same fucking people. When and where was anyone promised anything when it came to college? Seriously. Maybe its different in my very small corner of the MidWest world. I get the impression these individuals in the article are from major cities (most likely NY), where I cant even imagine their collective zeitgeist on career and expectations.

Maybe youre right. I have friends who are similar to the article, without the student loans in some cases, but they have one prevailing commonality. Theyre lazy and self-entitled. They want to hit the clock, work 40 hours and be paid at least $50k a year with weekends off.

I laugh at them, in real life, to their face.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Maybe youre right. I have friends who are similar to the article, without the student loans in some cases, but they have one prevailing commonality. Theyre lazy and self-entitled. They want to hit the clock, work 40 hours and be paid at least $50k a year with weekends off.

I laugh at them, in real life, to their face.

They want to make the national average working a normal work week and that is unreasonable?

$50k isn't what it used to be. This is not 1985.

[CosmicCowboy]

They want to make the national average working a normal work week and that is unreasonable?

$50k isn't what it used to be. This is not 1985.

Says the lazy, self entitled brat...:lol

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Says the lazy, self entitled brat...:lol

You know nothing about me obviously. I am not worried about my financial situation now or going forward. i worry for other peoples.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

...that these select individuals chose frivolous degrees then cried about no work after they took out loans to get those useless degrees?

...that their personal choices leading up to those degree decisions were unclear, misguided, misjudged and completely devoid of any real world application that could net you a real career?

...that I sincerely doubt their commitment to begin with, seeing as I deal with young people day in and day out? Some with just as useless degrees as those mentioned in the article?

I employ 3 individuals with college degrees. One with a master's in Theater, one with Communications and the other I cant even remember (he is a bit older, so it doesnt really hold this argument anyway). All of them express regret that they didnt do something else with their college time and I can understand that.

But these 3 dont lament their lot in life, they work 60 hours a week, have health insurance, a retirement plan and vacation once a year where ever they want to go.



If by handouts, do you mean me? The auto industry? Something else? Please clarify.



I grew up with these same fucking people. When and where was anyone promised anything when it came to college? Seriously. Maybe its different in my very small corner of the MidWest world. I get the impression these individuals in the article are from major cities (most likely NY), where I cant even imagine their collective zeitgeist on career and expectations.

Maybe youre right. I have friends who are similar to the article, without the student loans in some cases, but they have one prevailing commonality. Theyre lazy and self-entitled. They want to hit the clock, work 40 hours and be paid at least $50k a year with weekends off.

I laugh at them, in real life, to their face.

Now i get it. You are just a manager that does not like paying his employees. You are satisfied with your place precisely because you tell others theirs. Power never has had the same effect on me its weird but there are a tone of people just like you.

[DarrinS]

They want to make the national average working a normal work week and that is unreasonable?

$50k isn't what it used to be. This is not 1985.

You fucking crack me up dude. In 1985, 1st year accountants, engineers, chemists, programmers, etc. made between 20-30K. $50K was a pretty damn good salary just 10 years ago.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

You fucking crack me up dude. In 1985, 1st year accountants, engineers, chemists, programmers, etc. made between 20-30K. $50K was a pretty damn good salary just 10 years ago.

The national average is $47k today.

That was the whole point asking for $50k back in the 80s was asking for a lot. Critical thinking is not high on your list.

[DarrinS]

The national average is $47k today.

That was the whole point asking for $50k back in the 80s was asking for a lot. Critical thinking is not high on your list.


I think he was suggesting that newbies feel entitled to the national average salary for their zero experience and minimum work week (he can correct me if I'm wrong).

Critical thinking is not high on your list.

Were you even alive in 1985?

[Borat Sagyidev]

Sure.



Bankruptcy isnt usually an option for most people. The only people I know who are declared bankruptcy are the super-rich (...and its only Chapter 13 on a failed business) and those who cannot manage money further than their front pocket.

Both of which I have no sympathy for.



I graduated from high school in 1998. I am only mildly older than you (by the sounds of it) and those being described in the article.

Here is what I know:

I am from a middle-class to upper-middle class area. Lots of UAW kids, a few Automotive Executives kids (who had awesome parties).

I am a UAW kid, with a father that worked every moment of everyday of his short life as an electrician. He could never afford to send me or my two brothers to college.

You had two choices: Get a scholarship or take out loans.

Even then, I did not see the logic in taking student loans. I knew from a very young age that there are only a couple ways to become wealthy. The vast majority of the wealthy are all business owners/inventors.

IIRC, in Europe, in order to open a business, one must be a professional of that business (ie Start a residential electrical business, the owner must be a master electrician). Dont know if thats true, but just what I heard (albeit years ago). In the US, not so. Lucky me.

I have had a job since I was 11 years old. I used to work 20 hours a week washing dishes at an Italian restaurant. My dad was always doing side jobs, so I worked with him, too, throughout my young adult life. From the restaurant, I worked everywhere. Burger King, McDonalds, multiple restaurants and grocery stores doing anything and everything. This all before I graduated high school.

I graduated barely (21.5 credits), mostly because I do not like to get up early (big shout out to the guy who used to wake me up every morning), or attend school (older friends my whole life, they graduated 3 years earlier than me, that sucked) or be sober (woo-ha!). I immediately hired into an $8.00 an hour job welding brackets and bullshit by the truckload. I was too busy getting high in auto shop so I never actually welded before in my life.

Seeing as the owner didnt much give a shit about anything but getting product out the door, it was basically a job-party. Fit right in.

Wages blew, I was going nowhere and knew it (besides, had to get up too early). So my revelation was to become a furniture salesman. What a joke. 20 years old, wearing a suit and pitching lines rehearsed in training about products I never cared about. Spent most of my time at lunch and smoking outside. Failed miserably, was fired for under-performance. That was the first and only time in my life I had been fired.

Didnt know what to do at that point. I was kicked out by my father when I was 17 ("...got in the way of his pussy" was how he put it), had been living with the same roommate up until this point. His girlfriend got pregnant, they were getting married and moving (which obviously did not include me).

No job, nowhere to live, no contact with my father in years (Regrets, Ive had a few)...yeah, thats failure. Thats destitute, thats desperate, thats fucking life.

What do you do? Cry? Whine? Moan? Complain and blame?

Or was it that I didnt take school seriously enough, that I didnt respect my father's new wife enough (no matter how much I despised her), that I never took one job seriously enough to completion?

Was it the world's fault or mine? Easy answer.

So I got a job at some small shop sweeping the floors for $8 an hour at age 21. In 6 years, I was and am currently running that company. Finally, I committed to something. Finally, I chose a direction and went for it.

I was sweeping floors. One day I was asked "Know anything about computers?" Im a gamer, "Sure do, whatcha need?" They needed a guy who was willing to be trained in CAD software to detail prints. The engineers were/are busy designing this stuff, not making prints for the fab shop. This was a HUGE moment in my life, I thought it was big then seeing as I would actually work at fucking desk!, but looking back on it, it was much much more than that.

I met my boss (remember, I was 21). He was 18 years old. Dean's list every year at Kettering Engineering (aka GM Tech). Brilliant little fucker, he was, cocky too. But I would be too if I had mastered Calc2 at 16 years old. His first question "Ever worked in AutoCAD before?" Nope. "Drafting class?" Sure, but I never paid attention (ie skipped it so I could party). "know anything about computers?" That I do, could build one start to finish, BIOS, flashing, operating system (Windows of course), I can do that.

He was going back to school in 2 months. Kettering is extremely hard to get into. The curriculum calls for 6 months working, 6 months at school, or some such schedule (cant remember). Either way, he was going back to school. I had 2 months to learn two new programs (AutoCAD and Solidworks) and the basics of engineering, detailing and tolerancing with ZERO prior experience.

I slept at work, literally, in my car on occasion. My mother let me stay with her every now and then to make sure I was eating, so I could shower, etc.

He left for school and I took over his job. The first batch of prints that hit the floor, I was a nervous wreck. I am not a math guru, furthest I ever went was Trig, which I bombed out of because it was 1st hour (again, partying). Cosign, blablabla, none of it made any sense, yet these machinists knew how to calculate such things on a calculator and would come to me with questions about shit I didnt really understand.

You know what? I fucking nailed it. Fucking nailed it. Homerun, out of the stadium. 4 machines from scratch were designed, detailed (me), assembled (a little me), run-off and shipped while Whiz Kid was at school. Every print that hit the floor was mine and mine alone. Were there problems? Oh yeah. Did I cost the company money? Maybe a couple grand, in total. Did over $1.5 million dollars in equipment get invoiced with my initials in the title blocks? You fucking bet.

Big accomplishment for me then, not so much now looking back on it. A monkey can detail a print, but I didnt know that at the time. But regardless, I showed potential, drive, commitment and initiative.

The next thing I was asked to do was Quality Control at the company's second plant. This plant was/is small compared. I was sent to a 2 week class to learn the inspection software (as I already knew about prints, tolerancing, GD&T, etc) as the owner's partner and him had a falling out. The minority owner's son used to do all the ISO certifications, Quality Manuals, inspections and control documents. All of which I knew nothing about.

Started off just writing the inspection programs (thank you video games and scripts!) and then inspecting the parts associated with those programs. Which lead into my introduction to the International Organization for Standardization, ISO for short (you think it would be IOS, but Apple would have pitched a bitch, Im sure). I then had to learn about one thousand acronyms that, to this day, I hate beyond belief. What a fucking charade. Whatever.

At this point, I was making $14 an hour at age 24, I rewrote the Quality Manuals, the Control Documents and worked with the Cert rep on getting our company re-certified (have to do it every year, it sucks). Nailed it. Homerun. More impressive than detailing prints, but again, looking back on it, ISO is a fucking pyramid scheme and anyone who actually likes it enough to do it for a living is a masochist.

Owner can no longer handle running the day-to-day operation of this second plant. His main business is blowing up in a big way whereas as this little shit-shop is losing money every year of its existence. Not much money, less than $100k a year or breaking even, but when your other company is making millions, your priorities shift.

So, he calls a meeting with me (now the Quality Manager), the Plant Manager and the Office Manager and lays it out. "This company is failing, I can no longer do it everyday, I am probably going to shutter it". Fear of God, yes. I had busted my balls, never asked for a raise in my life, was making shit for what I was doing, but really, really enjoyed not having to bust my back to make a decent living as a single male with no children (like my father did and my brothers still do).

The PM and OM were speechless, I was not. I coerced the owner into letting "We 3 Kings" run the day-to-day for one year, possibly two. If it wasnt profitable by then, so be it. This company was his baby, he always referred to it as his 3rd child, he never took a paycheck his entire time as owner. He didnt want to close it, he just couldnt throw money out the window no matter how much he was making with his recently bought second company.

He, surprisingly, agreed.

Ive gone on long enough with this story. Summary from here: Lost money the first year, but showed promise with an expanding customer base (me, on the road, A LOT). Second year, became apparent that the "3 Kings" paradigm wasnt working, too many conflicts of interest (one of the first things the office manager did as a boss was give herself, the plant manager and me a raise. I was finally a salaried employee...first time in my life. $800 gross a week). Owner named me the General Manager in April 2006, 5 years after I was hired as a shop bitch sweeping floors and driving the HiLo, of his company that employed 15 people (16 including me).

It was rough. I had to learn proper accounting, payroll, taxes, business taxes, SBT taxes (Michigan thing, dont ask), 941 Quarterly reports, the difference between an S-Corporation and any other incorporation (pretty cool when youre a small outfit). I had to manage egos who didnt respect me as their boss, I had to fire people, knock people's pay down all while you watched a grown man cry that he will lose his house, I had to fire the Office Manager as she lazy made even worse that she didnt know shit about proper accounting or computers in general. She thought the fax machine was a big deal and hadnt watched one second of TV in 15 years. I cultivated customer relationships with people that were more than twice my age in a business (Automotive) that frowns upon youth in general running shit.

You know what? I fucking nailed it. Homerun, in the seats this time, next time it'll be out of the stadium. I inherited a struggling alley shop that worked from hand-to-mouth job-wise, which had gross sales under $300k and was hemorrhaging money. Today, I turned it into a profitable company with various private and government contracts guaranteeing X amount of dollars in revenue for the next 6+ years (with more to come), that now has gross sales over $2 million dollars, a retirement plan (me), health insurance (me) and employee bonuses twice a year (also me).

I pay more money in personal taxes than most people on this board make in a year, jointly.

Dont fucking tell me about what works and what doesnt, because here is what I know. I work, you dont. With drive, commitment, a little luck and the willingness to completely and utterly disregard your personal life as whole, you will succeed.

There are other ways of achieving the same things, with even better circumstances, I know this. But I do not sympathize with those who think working 9-5, 5 days a week as "working hard".

To this day, even with a profitable company and a cushy lifestyle, this success has driven me to be more successful. I work just as hard if not harder now, longer hours, sleepless nights, bigger company investments and risks. I want more. When that fire burns dim, I will retire a wealthy, and more importantly, happy, satisfied man.

Man I appreciate your post, we have a similar go it alone history history up until your employment with CAD. In TX and esepcially south TX you won't find anyone who will take someone that young in that type of serious job role. I knew CAD while that age too, but nothing was around in off-hand employment. I agree with you on ISO 100%, I hate that garbage.

I ended up in and out of the military with a few stints in Afghanistan and college with 2 doctorate degrees in... go figure engineering and physics. Now working as my own boss, contract to contract.

I think it's pretty evident our generation can work hard if given the shot.

[DarrinS]

I ended up in and out of the military with a few stints in Afghanistan and college with 2 doctorate degrees in... go figure engineering and physics. Now working as my own boss, contract to contract.



Damn. You served a few tours in Afghanistan AND had time to knock out two PhD's? Impressive.

[CuckingFunt]

...that these select individuals chose frivolous degrees then cried about no work after they took out loans to get those useless degrees?

...that their personal choices leading up to those degree decisions were unclear, misguided, misjudged and completely devoid of any real world application that could net you a real career?

...that I sincerely doubt their commitment to begin with, seeing as I deal with young people day in and day out? Some with just as useless degrees as those mentioned in the article?

I employ 3 individuals with college degrees. One with a master's in Theater, one with Communications and the other I cant even remember (he is a bit older, so it doesnt really hold this argument anyway). All of them express regret that they didnt do something else with their college time and I can understand that.

But these 3 dont lament their lot in life, they work 60 hours a week, have health insurance, a retirement plan and vacation once a year where ever they want to go.

And as I said earlier, just because you don't personally see those fields of study as valuable doesn't mean that they didn't work hard to earn their degrees. You're confusing making an "impractical" choice with an unwillingness to work hard, which is not only shortsighted but also ignores the fact that even those who made "practical" choices are finding it difficult to attain employment within their chosen field.


If by handouts, do you mean me? The auto industry? Something else? Please clarify.

I wasn't referring to you. Or to any specific type of handout. I was merely suggesting that the kids being discussed in the article, despite perhaps being misguided in any number of ways, all seem to be of a fairly dedicated sort -- those who likely did well in high school, then went on to college and did well there, too, all under the assumption that it would prepare them for the working world. Not aimless slackers, in other words, which seems to be what your argument assumes.


I grew up with these same fucking people. When and where was anyone promised anything when it came to college? Seriously. Maybe its different in my very small corner of the MidWest world. I get the impression these individuals in the article are from major cities (most likely NY), where I cant even imagine their collective zeitgeist on career and expectations.

Maybe youre right. I have friends who are similar to the article, without the student loans in some cases, but they have one prevailing commonality. Theyre lazy and self-entitled. They want to hit the clock, work 40 hours and be paid at least $50k a year with weekends off.

I laugh at them, in real life, to their face.

Certainly geographical differences may lead to a wide range of expectations, but I'm not necessarily talking about an upbringing in which all of this generation was told specifically, by their parents or anyone else, on a one-to-one basis that they would be guaranteed a job if they got a college degree. That vastly oversimplifies the issue. But I know that when I was growing up -- and I graduated high school in 1996, so we're close to the same age -- it was already understood that getting a college degree was the thing you needed to get a good job. Not necessarily that you'd be guaranteed a fat paycheck just for graduating, but that college was the thing you did if you wanted any chance at those opportunities. Through various sources, I was made very much aware that financial success and a college degree had a cause/effect relationship. In other words, you're arguing that this generation isn't willing to do the work necessary to get a job, and I'm arguing that by going to college they've done the work they were told was necessary. The article is just addressing the result of learning that in this economy it ain't enough.

To go for the clunkiest analogy ever, think of them as kids who for years have been told that the way to get to the second floor of a building is by running around in circles. Surely some are going to realize early on it isn't working and will find the staircase, while some are going to just pout that they're still on the first floor, but in neither case can you blame them 100% for starting out by running around in circles as they were told.

[vy65]

All this "lowered expectation" shit certainly gives me pause since part of my retirement plan has always been that when I got ready to downsize that my current house would sell for a shitload of money. If the generation behind us doesn't give a shit and care about "stuff" then who is going to buy it?

I'm on page 3 of the article - so I don't have room to comment fully yet, but . . .

I fall within the 20-30 demographic. I graduated from college with a degree in english and comparative literature. Was about to go to grad school but then realized I liked "stuff." Changed my mind, went to law school and bam .. now have some stuff.

Point of the story: there are still a lot of us who like stuff and want to get rich.

[vy65]

lol college. No one I went to school with thought they could do anything other than being a bank teller with a college degree. We all knew that college was high school part II and that we'd have to go to law/med/grad school if we wanted to do anything with ourselves.

[vy65]

You become a little like my friend Lael Goodman. “The worst thing is that I’ve always gotten self-worth from performance, especially good grades. But now that I can’t get a job, I feel worthless,” she says. Lael, who is 27, was the valedictorian of her high school and did very well in college too. Unable to find a position that paid a decent wage using her EnLuck_The_Fakers_glish degree, she got a master’s at the University of Michigan in environmental studies. She does technically have a job, for now, filling in for a woman on maternity leave at a D.C. nonprofit, but it’s not one that prevents all her go-getting from seeming for naught. Lael feels like she’s stranded on the wrong rung. “All the articles in the newspaper say that investing in an IRA now means I’ll have hundreds of thousands of extra dollars down the road, so I should just scrimp and save,” she says. “But I can’t scrimp and save because I’m doing that just to afford housing and groceries. So I’m screwed now, unable to enjoy young adulthood in the way that I feel I was promised, and screwed for the future.”

lol M.A. in environmental studies.


Sam found out that woodworking turned out to be mostly vacuuming up wood chips, and so after a few months, he moved on to a series of other gigs, none of them exactly a career. When he finally got sick of bouncing around in his broken-down $200 car and living with his parents—who kept pressuring him to revisit his math-and-science aptitude—he got himself a $25,000 bank loan, which he used to cover expenses while enrolled in continuing-ed classes in engineering at one of the U.C. schools. He ran out of money pretty quickly. He then found a job working in urban education, but was laid off after a year and a half. “That was the point in my life where I was like, I need to get a career, I need to make thatmove,” he told me over the phone, in the mellowed-out East Bay patois that had crept into his voice since I last spoke with him. These days, he’s going to networking events and desperately applying for jobs in the tech world, hopeful that landing something very entry-level will put him back on a navigable route to success. He’s had creditors calling him at all hours. He is rather earnestly worried that he might end up on the street. His brothers are managing to stand on their own feet, and he can’t bear to move back home.

lol urban education


The unions, we know, are heeding that call, but a broader youth movement has yet to materialize. Yaphet Murphy, a 28-year-old Baruch grad from Brooklyn, was at the first day of the protests. He’d made up to $45,000 a year as a taxi dispatcher at JFK before deciding that in order to really get on in the world, he needed a degree, in his case in marketing management. His $50,000 in student loans in deferment, he now pulls in $400 in a bad month and $1,000 in his very best month from freelance projects. He lives at home, relying on the generosity of his mom, an office assistant with the Social Security Administration, and his uncle, who works for the MTA. Yaphet hadn’t gone downtown to wave a placard. He was there on behalf of a client, a (very) independent film called Vodka Rocks!, a “countercultural” critique of corporate branding. “I thought it was congruent,” said Yaphet delicately. He still prefers to entrust his fate to his own hustle.

lol marketing management. WTF is that?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I think he was suggesting that newbies feel entitled to the national average salary for their zero experience and minimum work week (he can correct me if I'm wrong).

Critical thinking is not high on your list.

Were you even alive in 1985?

I love how you guys throw out the buzzword entitlement. Same shit from the GOP for literally 100 years. Same rhetoric used against FDR and LBJ.

No what he was saying is that the way that they had been raised they thought they would get about the national average if they worked hard and played the game.

Well they did that and found that they are being asked to work for half if they can find work at all. Expectation is not entitlement.

Like i said critical thinking is not very big for you. You start arguing a point and you lose the forest for the trees. Its like the whole 99% thing. You cite a poll saying that 30% of all Americans lay economic blame ALL on the financial sector and you interpret that as a win because its not 99%.

You have problems keeping up it would be okay if it weren't for your desire to guide policy. Like I said. You are part of the problem.

[vy65]

I love how you guys throw out the buzzword entitlement. Same shit from the GOP for literally 100 years. Same rhetoric used against FDR and LBJ.

No what he was saying is that the way that they had been raised they thought they would get about the national average if they worked hard and played the game.

Well they did that and found that they are being asked to work for half if they can find work at all. Expectation is not entitlement.

Like i said critical thinking is not very big for you. You start arguing a point and you lose the forest for the trees. Its like the whole 99% thing. You cite a poll saying that 30% of all Americans lay economic blame ALL on the financial sector and you interpret that as a win because its not 99%.

You have problems keeping up it would be okay if it weren't for your desire to guide policy. Like I said. You are part of the problem.

You're seriously fucking retarded. Anyone who graduates from college thinking that they have a chance at a 50k job merely by virtue of having graduated with a b.a. has a severe sense of entitlement.

I knew, when I graduated college in 2005, that I had no chance whatsoever of doing anything with my degree. This was before the crash. I say this to show that if anyone expected to get a good job with a non-technical degree (e.g., engineering), then they would also have an extreme sense of entitlement as well. Why? Because we knew that competition for jobs was outstripping the supply -- there were more qualified candidates out of school than there were jobs. And did I mention this was in 2005?

All the crash did was make a bad situation worse. The article is filled with a bunch of hipsters complaining that they can't find a job with their bullshit degrees in areas no one gives a fuck about. For every one of their stories (which is rife with solipsistic entitlement), I can find stories of people like DR who made something of themselves despite all the shit that's been going on.

You like to talk about critical thinking. Sadly, you don't seem to do much of it yourself.

[Drachen]

I love how you guys throw out the buzzword entitlement. Same shit from the GOP for literally 100 years. Same rhetoric used against FDR and LBJ.

No what he was saying is that the way that they had been raised they thought they would get about the national average if they worked hard and played the game.

Well they did that and found that they are being asked to work for half if they can find work at all. Expectation is not entitlement.

Like i said critical thinking is not very big for you. You start arguing a point and you lose the forest for the trees. Its like the whole 99% thing. You cite a poll saying that 30% of all Americans lay economic blame ALL on the financial sector and you interpret that as a win because its not 99%.

You have problems keeping up it would be okay if it weren't for your desire to guide policy. Like I said. You are part of the problem.

The problem is that you are using the national average. You don't get the national average out of college. I know that the average starting salary for a college graduate (bach) a few years ago was 32k. That would have obviously come down. Even if it didn't, it is still an average. So for every newly minted engineer making 42, you have a poetry major making 22. I think you get the idea.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

You're seriously fucking retarded. Anyone who graduates from college thinking that they have a chance at a 50k job merely by virtue of having graduated with a b.a. has a severe sense of entitlement.

I knew, when I graduated college in 2005, that I had no chance whatsoever of doing anything with my degree. This was before the crash. I say this to show that if anyone expected to get a good job with a non-technical degree (e.g., engineering), then they would also have an extreme sense of entitlement as well. Why? Because we knew that competition for jobs was outstripping the supply -- there were more qualified candidates out of school than there were jobs. And did I mention this was in 2005?

All the crash did was make a bad situation worse. The article is filled with a bunch of hipsters complaining that they can't find a job with their bullshit degrees in areas no one gives a fuck about. For every one of their stories (which is rife with solipsistic entitlement), I can find stories of people like DR who made something of themselves despite all the shit that's been going on.

You like to talk about critical thinking. Sadly, you don't seem to do much of it yourself.

My bad. I allowed myself to get sucked into your mischaracterization. Before we go on can you quote the portion of the article that indicates that they felt entitled to $50k straight out of college.

I forget you fucks have your preconceived notions and then fit everything into them. This appears to be the case here as well. i lost sight of that. My bad.

FWIW, my degree does have a national starting salary of a hair under $50k.

[vy65]

My bad. I allowed myself to get sucked into your mischaracterization. Before we go on can you quote the portion of the article that indicates that they felt entitled to $50k straight out of college.

I forget you fucks have your preconceived notions and then fit everything into them. This appears to be the case here as well. i lost sight of that. My bad.

FWIW, my degree does have a national starting salary of a hair under $50k.

Do you make a hair under 50k? What's your degree in?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

The problem is that you are using the national average. You don't get the national average out of college. I know that the average starting salary for a college graduate (bach) a few years ago was 32k. That would have obviously come down. Even if it didn't, it is still an average. So for every newly minted engineer making 42, you have a poetry major making 22. I think you get the idea.

I understand. The problem is that no one except the usual suspects is claiming they were even expecting $50k.

they like making shit up.

[LnGrrrR]

Holy shit, i wonder why our generation thinks negatively. Only, you know, 9/11, the war on terror, the banks failing and getting paid taxpayer money, Katrina... I can see no reason for negativity. :lol

That said, I don't think all of us in the 20-35 age gap are as emo as the article makes us out to be. I do think I was somewhat "lucky", as I joined the military to be in the bomb squad, and ended up failing out of that career field and into the network technician track which is much better career-wise.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Do you make a hair under 50k? What's your degree in?

That makes no difference in the discussion and i am not going to allow you to make this about me. The point is that there are majors that start out there on average so for some that would be a reasonable expectation.

Now where in the article do they claim that they in particular were expecting that. Its looking more and more like another strawman by the board 'conservatives.'

[LnGrrrR]

I have to say, reading through the thread now, DR is pretty much spot on.

[vy65]

That makes no difference in the discussion and i am not going to allow you to make this about me. The point is that there are majors that start out there on average so for some that would be a reasonable expectation.

Now where in the article do they claim that they in particular were expecting that. Its looking more and more like another strawman by the board 'conservatives.'

Ok. So you don't make a hair under 50k. Thanks for proving my point.

Is your mystery major in cultural studies too?

[vy65]

Holy shit, i wonder why our generation thinks negatively. Only, you know, 9/11, the war on terror, the banks failing and getting paid taxpayer money, Katrina... I can see no reason for negativity. :lol

That said, I don't think all of us in the 20-35 age gap are as emo as the article makes us out to be. I do think I was somewhat "lucky", as I joined the military to be in the bomb squad, and ended up failing out of that career field and into the network technician track which is much better career-wise.

I think I missed on something. At a certain point, I realized that I had to do what I was good at and that would make me money. This was very different than what I wanted to do.

Emo faggets get all sad when what they want to do doesn't end up paying well or being in demand. That's not some sign of the times we're in. That's just an unwillingness to grow up.

[vy65]

lol critical thinking.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Ok. So you don't make a hair under 50k. Thanks for proving my point.

Is you're mystery major in cultural studies too?

You obviously are going to keep trying. I kind use apathy as a blunt force weapon. I don't want to disturb your preconceived notions about me. Its much more fun watching you guys be completely wrong.

Now back to the thread subject.

Where in the article does anyone say they expected to make $50k straight out of college.

Thats been you guys position for three pages at least now. You giving up on it them because it certainly seems to make you a bunch of fucking liars.

[vy65]

You obviously are going to keep trying. I kind use apathy as a blunt force weapon. I don't want to disturb your preconceived notions about me. Its much more fun watching you guys be completely wrong.

Now back to the thread subject.

Where in the article does anyone say they expected to make $50k straight out of college.

Thats been you guys position for three pages at least now. You giving up on it them because it certainly seems to make you a bunch of fucking liars.

I don't have any preconceived notions about you. You intimated you made 50k out of school. I called you out on that and you shriveled up like tiny little balls.

The whole point of the article was to suggest that kids my age have lowered their expectations about their careers due to "the times we're in." What it neglects is the fact that a) these kids have majors like "critical thinking" and b) even before "the mess we're in," you had to get some post-graduate degree if you thought the school-route was going to make you any money.

The 50k only came up when you suggested you printing paper - which clearly isn't the case.

lol critical thinking.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I don't have any preconceived notions about you. You intimated you made 50k out of school. I called you out on that and you shriveled up like tiny little balls.

The whole point of the article was to suggest that kids my age have lowered their expectations about their careers due to "the times we're in." What it neglects is the fact that a) these kids have majors like "critical thinking" and b) even before "the mess we're in," you had to get some post-graduate degree if you thought the school-route was going to make you any money.

The 50k only came up when you suggested you printing paper - which clearly isn't the case.

lol critical thinking.

Shriveled balls? Male machismo trying to evoke an answer. I've never experienced that before.... :rolleyes

So you admit that you and your ilk were just talking out of your ass with these claims of $50k? Thats what important to t he discussion because you are making shit up about them so you can ridicule them.

[vy65]

Shriveled balls? Male machismo trying to evoke an answer. I've never experienced that before.... :rolleyes

So you admit that you and your ilk were just talking out of your ass with these claims of $50k? Thats what important to t he discussion because you are making shit up about them so you can ridicule them.

So you don't make 50k. Cool.

[Vici]

." What it neglects is the fact that a) these kids have majors like "critical thinking" and b) even before "the mess we're in," you had to get some post-graduate degree if you thought the school-route was going to make you any money.

You do realize that he was just using a few of his friends and that in no way shape or form does that constitute the majority of the people in our generation. Obviously those majors are worthless and if anyone was dumb enough to go into an interview with haircuts like that they don't deserve the job.

These kids aren't holding themselves out for 50k jobs but any job that could lead to a career. I know in my particular field, for every open position there are literally hundreds of applicants. It's harder to get into Harvard or MIT than it is getting a job with my company. That's kind of the point, It wasn't like this before.

[vy65]

You do realize that he was just using a few of his friends and that in no way shape or form does that constitute the majority of the people in our generation. Obviously those majors are worthless and if anyone was dumb enough to go into an interview with haircuts like that they don't deserve the job.

The title of the article is: "Why the Current Crop of Twentysomethings are going to be ok." He talks about his friends, sure. But then he extrapolates that to our entire generation.


These kids aren't holding themselves out for 50k jobs but any job that could lead to a career. I know in my particular field, for every open position there are literally hundreds of applicants. It's harder to get into Harvard or MIT than it is getting a job with my company. That's kind of the point, It wasn't like this before.

Depends on the company. I'm sure they're are more than a few companies where it'd be easier to get hired compared to getting into Harvard.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

You cannot even say it can you vy?

Admit that they never said that. Darrin just pussed out and left.

[vy65]

Admit what? You intimated you make 50k. I called you out on it. And then you followed Darrin right out the door.

I'm sensing a noticeable lack of critical thinking on your part.

[DarrinS]

These kids aren't holding themselves out for 50k jobs but any job that could lead to a career. I know in my particular field, for every open position there are literally hundreds of applicants. It's harder to get into Harvard or MIT than it is getting a job with my company. That's kind of the point, It wasn't like this before.


Or, sometimes you just have to start on the ground floor and work your way up.

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5443531&postcount=53

[LnGrrrR]

Damn. You served a few tours in Afghanistan AND had time to knock out two PhD's? Impressive.

Alot of people in the military tend to do the most schooling while overseas... not much else to do during the downtime. :lol

[DarrinS]

Alot of people in the military tend to do the most schooling while overseas... not much else to do during the downtime. :lol

Through Webster University?

[LnGrrrR]

I think I missed on something. At a certain point, I realized that I had to do what I was good at and that would make me money. This was very different than what I wanted to do.

Emo faggets get all sad when what they want to do doesn't end up paying well or being in demand. That's not some sign of the times we're in. That's just an unwillingness to grow up.

I think there's a difference between being cynical and being emo. To me, the kids in the article are emo, which I can't stand. However, I'm cynical as anyone, and I think it can be a positive trait.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Anyone who graduates from college thinking that they have a chance at a 50k job merely by virtue of having graduated with a b.a. has a severe sense of entitlement.


My point was that no one said that. Why did you intimate that anyone had? Clearly not form the article because it was not said there.

I told you that my degree has a starting salary of a hair under $50k to indicate that such degrees do exist. if you want to read more into me not going into more detail about myself then you go right ahead.

[LnGrrrR]

Through Webster University?

:lol I can't tell you how many young airmen I see who sign up for Phoenix or some other bullshit school.

That said, a lot of decent schools are now offering online courses. (I still think that you learn much less than inside an actual classroom environment, but that's me.) And there's also other education opportunities to study for (such as the CCNP, which I'll be reading up for...)

[vy65]

I think there's a difference between being cynical and being emo. To me, the kids in the article are emo, which I can't stand. However, I'm cynical as anyone, and I think it can be a positive trait.

:tu

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Through Webster University?

Maybe it was the same place you got $50k from in the article.

[DarrinS]

Maybe it was the same place you got $50k from in the article.


Maybe I got it here

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5443579&postcount=61

[vy65]

My point was that no one said that. Why did you intimate that anyone had? Clearly not form the article because it was not said there.

The point before was: anyone who gets a B.A. in critical thinking and complains about not making $50,000.00 thinking critically about stuff is an entitled emo fagget. You intimated that you make 50k. When I called you out on that, you didn't answer the question. Start from that point and do some critical thinking.


I told you that my degree has a starting salary of a hair under $50k to indicate that such degrees do exist. if you want to read more into me not going into more detail about myself then you go right ahead.

It's cool - I know you don't make 50k - and that you threw that out there to make my point.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

The point before was: anyone who gets a B.A. in critical thinking and complains about not making $50,000.00 thinking critically about stuff is an entitled emo fagget. You intimated that you make 50k. When I called you out on that, you didn't answer the question. Start from that point and do some critical thinking.

It's cool - I know you don't make 50k - and that you threw that out there to make my point.

This is so cute. You are butthurt about me. I'd give you a hug but I am all the way over here.

You go ahead and think I intimated whatever. I am not going to discuss my personal life with the butthurt. What I make is immaterial. A national average is an aggregate of thousands of new hires.

You have no point as in the first no one has ever said $50k but DR and I took a bit to fact check. But now you're mad and all. I'm sorry for that.

[Agloco]

The biggest issue I see with many of them is that they expect it all immediately.

This pertains to pretty much anything imo. I had a lively "debate" with a youngster about 2 years ago who claimed that she could debunk relativity. She was a 19-year old music major at that. That's what we have today, instant experts at pretty much anything.

Gotta love the You Tube generation. Just enough knowledge to be dangerous.

[ElNono]

Poetry degree?

Seriously. If you have debt from "earning" a poetry degree, Darwin should have had his way with you long ago. Poetry degrees are for people who have rich parents, and jobs in the family business BEFORE they pick a major.

Whoever thought there should be a poetry 'degree' in the first place should be very likely shot. Heck, I'm surprised Unis offering such a degree aren't being sued their asses out.

[vy65]

Why would I be butthurt? I make more than 3x what a critical thinker like you makes.

[baseline bum]

This pertains to pretty much anything imo. I had a lively "debate" with a youngster about 2 years ago who claimed that she could debunk relativity. She was a 19-year old music major at that. That's what we have today, instant experts at pretty much anything.

Gotta love the You Tube generation. Just enough knowledge to be dangerous.

So you didn't get laid? :(

[ElNono]

This pertains to pretty much anything imo. I had a lively "debate" with a youngster about 2 years ago who claimed that she could debunk relativity. She was a 19-year old music major at that. That's what we have today, instant experts at pretty much anything.

Gotta love the You Tube generation. Just enough knowledge to be dangerous.

Shut up, you don't know what you're talking about

:lol

[ElNono]

President Obama wants to get Americans back to what we do best. He wants teachers teaching, police policing, firemen fighting fires, and the rest of us checking Facebook.
-Jimmy Kimmel

[mavs>spurs]

Yeah I realized that all this is true for my generation a while back..i was putting along at a slow pace fucking around not realizing the seriousness of the situation, not sure what i wanted to major in. Then i realized I was going to graduate about 2 or 3 years behind at the pace i was going, so i started taking summer classes to catch up. every summer, then i realized that wasn't enough so i switched my major to something i could finish up a lot faster (finance) and at that point the gloves were OFF, i was fucking pissed and ready to get down. pulled my gpa to a 3.8 like a study obsessed maniac and am going to graduate this summer only a year behind by taking classes over the wintermester, taking a full load of hard classes this spring, and then 2 in the summer. it sucks but i'm realizing what others in my age group have yet to realize- it's a cold world out there and i'll be damned if i pay for the past generations mistakes with my own prosperity. what i plan to do is finish my degree, take whatever job i can get probably only making 45,000 a year, and start paying off my loans now while still living at home. yeah it fucking sucks living at home 22 going on 23, and it'll suck even more living with mommy and daddy at 24, but i ain't got no other choice. this generation is fucked with 55% employment rate for young people. dreams are being crushed right now. after i make some progress on my loans and after a small break, i'll be going back for the 6 or 7 classes i need for a double major in accounting by taking 2 classes at night after work for a few semesters. then taking a few grad school classes for my cpa. props if you actually read all that, i know i'm ranting but it's just that times really do suck for the under 30 crowd and i don't even think my fellow age-mates even understand the seriousness of the situation. i'll be damn near 30 years old by the time i finally got this ship steered in the right direction, and i did most everything right (going to community college and living at home to save money, working part time, etc) EXCEPT not knowing what i wanted to do in life sooner.

[MannyIsGod]

Absolutely fantastic article. Thanks for sharing. I'll comment when I'm not on my TouchPadCancel but at a keyboard.

[DarkReign]

Yeah I realized that all this is true for my generation a while back..i was putting along at a slow pace fucking around not realizing the seriousness of the situation, not sure what i wanted to major in. Then i realized I was going to graduate about 2 or 3 years behind at the pace i was going, so i started taking summer classes to catch up. every summer, then i realized that wasn't enough so i switched my major to something i could finish up a lot faster (finance) and at that point the gloves were OFF, i was fucking pissed and ready to get down. pulled my gpa to a 3.8 like a study obsessed maniac and am going to graduate this summer only a year behind by taking classes over the wintermester, taking a full load of hard classes this spring, and then 2 in the summer. it sucks but i'm realizing what others in my age group have yet to realize- it's a cold world out there and i'll be damned if i pay for the past generations mistakes with my own prosperity. what i plan to do is finish my degree, take whatever job i can get probably only making 45,000 a year, and start paying off my loans now while still living at home. yeah it fucking sucks living at home 22 going on 23, and it'll suck even more living with mommy and daddy at 24, but i ain't got no other choice. this generation is fucked with 55% employment rate for young people. dreams are being crushed right now. after i make some progress on my loans and after a small break, i'll be going back for the 6 or 7 classes i need for a double major in accounting by taking 2 classes at night after work for a few semesters. then taking a few grad school classes for my cpa. props if you actually read all that, i know i'm ranting but it's just that times really do suck for the under 30 crowd and i don't even think my fellow age-mates even understand the seriousness of the situation. i'll be damn near 30 years old by the time i finally got this ship steered in the right direction, and i did most everything right (going to community college and living at home to save money, working part time, etc) EXCEPT not knowing what i wanted to do in life sooner.

See, youre not the one being described in the article in the OP at all. There is nothing wrong with slacking a bit, but at some point, one must commit to a path. A well thought out path with a clear goal.

You did. Finance is a career, an applicable career, employed or private practice.

I fully realize the OP article is just a snapshot of big city emo kids. I work with youngins' full of work ethic, drive and potential who didnt elect the college path.

Its quite refreshing to hear, actually.

[mavs>spurs]

i'm just thankful as hell that i have no kids, no female to support, and my parents are awesome enough to support me in these times and let me live here as long as i'm working or in school or both. i'll only have about 20k in debt when i'm done, that isn't too bad compared to most i would think?

[mavs>spurs]

me thinks my girl being a bitch and changing on me was a blessing in disguise at this point. I was spendin money on her that she didn't deserve anyway. not to mention i found out she was an illegal immigrant and basically can't even use her degree, and this ain't the welfare line.

tee, hee

[DarkReign]

Now i get it. You are just a manager that does not like paying his employees. You are satisfied with your place precisely because you tell others theirs. Power never has had the same effect on me its weird but there are a tone of people just like you.

You rail against VY and others for making assumptions about you, then make assumptions about me.

Hypocritical much?

Before me, the company never paid bonuses, didnt offer health insurance and did not have a retirement program. It was an alley shop. Do you know what that phrase means?

I pay my Plant Manager (same one from the 3 Kings era) more than you make, trust me. Base salary: $80k. Bonuses always vary and are based on profit percentage, but in 2010 (which was one of our better years comparatively, but will be the low-water mark going forward), he made $115k. 2011 has been an absolutely outstanding year, he can fully expect to get a $20k bonus check this Christmas. He could damn near pay off his house in one year's work.

The foreman made ~$80k. The boys on the floor all make over $50k with overtime and bonuses. These guys on the floor are all under 30 years old, some without a high school diploma, some are convicts, almost all of them are from broken families full of drug addicts, violent deaths and dependance on welfare.

2 of these young guys are the bread winners in their family. They actually support their mothers and sister (+kids) on the wage I pay them.

Ive changed lives, Lumpkins. Ive changed entire families destinies (or fates, if you prefer). Ive touched dozens of people, given them applicable skills and watched them move on to bigger and better things, all while paying them an extremely good wage.

What in the ever-loving fuck have you done, guy?

[DarkReign]

BTW, the Plant Manager and Foremen have only a high school diploma. The foreman has never done anything else besides this trade. The Plant Manager would go back to truck driving in a heartbeat if we closed.

So, the foreman's choice is to be unemployed for $361 a week and the Plant Manager can go make half of what he does with me.

You think theyre unhappy and ungrateful? I made a promise to them early on, we grow, you grow. Ive kept my promise as have they. Its symbiotic, yet you characterize me as a parasite in your assumptions.

[MannyIsGod]

See, youre not the one being described in the article in the OP at all. There is nothing wrong with slacking a bit, but at some point, one must commit to a path. A well thought out path with a clear goal.

You did. Finance is a career, an applicable career, employed or private practice.

I fully realize the OP article is just a snapshot of big city emo kids. I work with youngins' full of work ethic, drive and potential who didnt elect the college path.

Its quite refreshing to hear, actually.

I think you missed the point of the article quite badly, DR. It was talking about people almost exactly like the mindset of Y.H. and how our generation is full of them. You seem to think otherwise.

[Vici]

I think you missed the point of the article quite badly, DR. It was talking about people almost exactly like the mindset of Y.H. and how our generation is full of them. You seem to think otherwise.

bingo

[CuckingFunt]

I think you missed the point of the article quite badly, DR. It was talking about people almost exactly like the mindset of Y.H. and how our generation is full of them. You seem to think otherwise.

I think DR got pissed off about the haircuts by the second page (as he stated in his first post) and let that color his reading of the rest of the article.

[mavs>spurs]

I think you missed the point of the article quite badly, DR. It was talking about people almost exactly like the mindset of Y.H. and how our generation is full of them. You seem to think otherwise.

I hope you mean people like I WAS, not am

[greyforest]

Sure.



Bankruptcy isnt usually an option for most people. The only people I know who are declared bankruptcy are the super-rich (...and its only Chapter 13 on a failed business) and those who cannot manage money further than their front pocket.

Both of which I have no sympathy for.



I graduated from high school in 1998. I am only mildly older than you (by the sounds of it) and those being described in the article.

Here is what I know:

I am from a middle-class to upper-middle class area. Lots of UAW kids, a few Automotive Executives kids (who had awesome parties).

I am a UAW kid, with a father that worked every moment of everyday of his short life as an electrician. He could never afford to send me or my two brothers to college.

You had two choices: Get a scholarship or take out loans.

Even then, I did not see the logic in taking student loans. I knew from a very young age that there are only a couple ways to become wealthy. The vast majority of the wealthy are all business owners/inventors.

IIRC, in Europe, in order to open a business, one must be a professional of that business (ie Start a residential electrical business, the owner must be a master electrician). Dont know if thats true, but just what I heard (albeit years ago). In the US, not so. Lucky me.

I have had a job since I was 11 years old. I used to work 20 hours a week washing dishes at an Italian restaurant. My dad was always doing side jobs, so I worked with him, too, throughout my young adult life. From the restaurant, I worked everywhere. Burger King, McDonalds, multiple restaurants and grocery stores doing anything and everything. This all before I graduated high school.

I graduated barely (21.5 credits), mostly because I do not like to get up early (big shout out to the guy who used to wake me up every morning), or attend school (older friends my whole life, they graduated 3 years earlier than me, that sucked) or be sober (woo-ha!). I immediately hired into an $8.00 an hour job welding brackets and bullshit by the truckload. I was too busy getting high in auto shop so I never actually welded before in my life.

Seeing as the owner didnt much give a shit about anything but getting product out the door, it was basically a job-party. Fit right in.

Wages blew, I was going nowhere and knew it (besides, had to get up too early). So my revelation was to become a furniture salesman. What a joke. 20 years old, wearing a suit and pitching lines rehearsed in training about products I never cared about. Spent most of my time at lunch and smoking outside. Failed miserably, was fired for under-performance. That was the first and only time in my life I had been fired.

Didnt know what to do at that point. I was kicked out by my father when I was 17 ("...got in the way of his pussy" was how he put it), had been living with the same roommate up until this point. His girlfriend got pregnant, they were getting married and moving (which obviously did not include me).

No job, nowhere to live, no contact with my father in years (Regrets, Ive had a few)...yeah, thats failure. Thats destitute, thats desperate, thats fucking life.

What do you do? Cry? Whine? Moan? Complain and blame?

Or was it that I didnt take school seriously enough, that I didnt respect my father's new wife enough (no matter how much I despised her), that I never took one job seriously enough to completion?

Was it the world's fault or mine? Easy answer.

So I got a job at some small shop sweeping the floors for $8 an hour at age 21. In 6 years, I was and am currently running that company. Finally, I committed to something. Finally, I chose a direction and went for it.

I was sweeping floors. One day I was asked "Know anything about computers?" Im a gamer, "Sure do, whatcha need?" They needed a guy who was willing to be trained in CAD software to detail prints. The engineers were/are busy designing this stuff, not making prints for the fab shop. This was a HUGE moment in my life, I thought it was big then seeing as I would actually work at fucking desk!, but looking back on it, it was much much more than that.

I met my boss (remember, I was 21). He was 18 years old. Dean's list every year at Kettering Engineering (aka GM Tech). Brilliant little fucker, he was, cocky too. But I would be too if I had mastered Calc2 at 16 years old. His first question "Ever worked in AutoCAD before?" Nope. "Drafting class?" Sure, but I never paid attention (ie skipped it so I could party). "know anything about computers?" That I do, could build one start to finish, BIOS, flashing, operating system (Windows of course), I can do that.

He was going back to school in 2 months. Kettering is extremely hard to get into. The curriculum calls for 6 months working, 6 months at school, or some such schedule (cant remember). Either way, he was going back to school. I had 2 months to learn two new programs (AutoCAD and Solidworks) and the basics of engineering, detailing and tolerancing with ZERO prior experience.

I slept at work, literally, in my car on occasion. My mother let me stay with her every now and then to make sure I was eating, so I could shower, etc.

He left for school and I took over his job. The first batch of prints that hit the floor, I was a nervous wreck. I am not a math guru, furthest I ever went was Trig, which I bombed out of because it was 1st hour (again, partying). Cosign, blablabla, none of it made any sense, yet these machinists knew how to calculate such things on a calculator and would come to me with questions about shit I didnt really understand.

You know what? I fucking nailed it. Fucking nailed it. Homerun, out of the stadium. 4 machines from scratch were designed, detailed (me), assembled (a little me), run-off and shipped while Whiz Kid was at school. Every print that hit the floor was mine and mine alone. Were there problems? Oh yeah. Did I cost the company money? Maybe a couple grand, in total. Did over $1.5 million dollars in equipment get invoiced with my initials in the title blocks? You fucking bet.

Big accomplishment for me then, not so much now looking back on it. A monkey can detail a print, but I didnt know that at the time. But regardless, I showed potential, drive, commitment and initiative.

The next thing I was asked to do was Quality Control at the company's second plant. This plant was/is small compared. I was sent to a 2 week class to learn the inspection software (as I already knew about prints, tolerancing, GD&T, etc) as the owner's partner and him had a falling out. The minority owner's son used to do all the ISO certifications, Quality Manuals, inspections and control documents. All of which I knew nothing about.

Started off just writing the inspection programs (thank you video games and scripts!) and then inspecting the parts associated with those programs. Which lead into my introduction to the International Organization for Standardization, ISO for short (you think it would be IOS, but Apple would have pitched a bitch, Im sure). I then had to learn about one thousand acronyms that, to this day, I hate beyond belief. What a fucking charade. Whatever.

At this point, I was making $14 an hour at age 24, I rewrote the Quality Manuals, the Control Documents and worked with the Cert rep on getting our company re-certified (have to do it every year, it sucks). Nailed it. Homerun. More impressive than detailing prints, but again, looking back on it, ISO is a fucking pyramid scheme and anyone who actually likes it enough to do it for a living is a masochist.

Owner can no longer handle running the day-to-day operation of this second plant. His main business is blowing up in a big way whereas as this little shit-shop is losing money every year of its existence. Not much money, less than $100k a year or breaking even, but when your other company is making millions, your priorities shift.

So, he calls a meeting with me (now the Quality Manager), the Plant Manager and the Office Manager and lays it out. "This company is failing, I can no longer do it everyday, I am probably going to shutter it". Fear of God, yes. I had busted my balls, never asked for a raise in my life, was making shit for what I was doing, but really, really enjoyed not having to bust my back to make a decent living as a single male with no children (like my father did and my brothers still do).

The PM and OM were speechless, I was not. I coerced the owner into letting "We 3 Kings" run the day-to-day for one year, possibly two. If it wasnt profitable by then, so be it. This company was his baby, he always referred to it as his 3rd child, he never took a paycheck his entire time as owner. He didnt want to close it, he just couldnt throw money out the window no matter how much he was making with his recently bought second company.

He, surprisingly, agreed.

Ive gone on long enough with this story. Summary from here: Lost money the first year, but showed promise with an expanding customer base (me, on the road, A LOT). Second year, became apparent that the "3 Kings" paradigm wasnt working, too many conflicts of interest (one of the first things the office manager did as a boss was give herself, the plant manager and me a raise. I was finally a salaried employee...first time in my life. $800 gross a week). Owner named me the General Manager in April 2006, 5 years after I was hired as a shop bitch sweeping floors and driving the HiLo, of his company that employed 15 people (16 including me).

It was rough. I had to learn proper accounting, payroll, taxes, business taxes, SBT taxes (Michigan thing, dont ask), 941 Quarterly reports, the difference between an S-Corporation and any other incorporation (pretty cool when youre a small outfit). I had to manage egos who didnt respect me as their boss, I had to fire people, knock people's pay down all while you watched a grown man cry that he will lose his house, I had to fire the Office Manager as she lazy made even worse that she didnt know shit about proper accounting or computers in general. She thought the fax machine was a big deal and hadnt watched one second of TV in 15 years. I cultivated customer relationships with people that were more than twice my age in a business (Automotive) that frowns upon youth in general running shit.

You know what? I fucking nailed it. Homerun, in the seats this time, next time it'll be out of the stadium. I inherited a struggling alley shop that worked from hand-to-mouth job-wise, which had gross sales under $300k and was hemorrhaging money. Today, I turned it into a profitable company with various private and government contracts guaranteeing X amount of dollars in revenue for the next 6+ years (with more to come), that now has gross sales over $2 million dollars, a retirement plan (me), health insurance (me) and employee bonuses twice a year (also me).

I pay more money in personal taxes than most people on this board make in a year, jointly.

Dont fucking tell me about what works and what doesnt, because here is what I know. I work, you dont. With drive, commitment, a little luck and the willingness to completely and utterly disregard your personal life as whole, you will succeed.

There are other ways of achieving the same things, with even better circumstances, I know this. But I do not sympathize with those who think working 9-5, 5 days a week as "working hard".

To this day, even with a profitable company and a cushy lifestyle, this success has driven me to be more successful. I work just as hard if not harder now, longer hours, sleepless nights, bigger company investments and risks. I want more. When that fire burns dim, I will retire a wealthy, and more importantly, happy, satisfied man.

I am employed, so your assumption is wrong. You are combative, hurling insults and profanity with absolutely no provocation.

Let me summarize your wall of text for everybody!


I became successful so that means everybody can. Bootstraps bootstraps bootstraps.

Your anecdote is not indicative of everyone's situation. The plural of "anecdote" is something called "data":

http://static8.businessinsider.com/image/4e9461b0ecad04156c000028-547/and-its-not-like-unemployment-these-days-is-a-quick-painful-jolt-a-record-percentage-of-unemployed-people-have-been-unemployed-for-longer-than-6-months.jpg

http://static7.businessinsider.com/image/4e9461fdeab8ead748000035-547/and-its-not-just-construction-workers-who-cant-find-jobs-the-median-duration-of-all-unemployment-is-also-near-an-all-time-high.jpg

http://static8.businessinsider.com/image/4e9479026bb3f76522000000-547/and-thats-just-people-who-meet-the-strict-criteria-for-unemployed-include-people-working-part-time-who-want-to-work-full-time-plus-some-people-who-havent-looked-for-a-job-in-a-while-and-unemployments-at-17.jpg

http://static8.businessinsider.com/image/4e9461ae6bb3f7186300005a-547/and-so-in-conclusion-well-end-with-another-look-at-the-money-shotthe-one-overarching-reason-the-wall-street-protesters-are-so-upset-wages-as-a-percent-of-the-economy-again-its-basically-the-lowest-it-has-ever-been.jpg

I don't think there would be this many articles about adult children moving back home unless there was something seriously wrong with our society and economy:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/10/15/MNM41LHSAT.DTL

The U.S. Census Bureau says that from 2007, just before the recession hit, to 2010, a year after the recession officially ended, the number of adults ages 25 to 34 living with their parents shot up 26 percent, from 4.7 million to 5.9 million.

Unemployment for adults younger than 24 is double the national mark of 9.1 percent. According to a Purdue University study, more than two-thirds of parents are giving their grown children financial assistance, double the rate of 20 years ago.

http://www.digtriad.com/news/article/192459/57/Economy-Has-Parents-Adult-Children-Learning-To-Coexist-Again-

http://www.andersonvalleypost.com/news/2011/oct/18/where-shmae-moving-back-home/

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124736728106627671.html

http://calcoastnews.com/2011/10/%E2%80%98boomerang%E2%80%99-youth-returning-home/




Since you only seem to understand anecdotes, I will share mine.

I get paid nearly three times as much money as an independent contractor than the job I was offered in my field after I graduated (Biology degree, 4.0 GPA, children's cancer research). All of my similarly-aged cousins who have graduated college (nearly a dozen people) have no means of providing support for a middle-class family. That's quite statistically significant.

To try and blame my generation for having few jobs is morally repugnant. We had nothing to do with all of our predecessors completely fucking the economy up beyond repair.

[MannyIsGod]

I had more to say earlier than I think I do now but I'll still make some points:

There's a lot of anger and frustration in the people who are 20-35 or so. There has been for awhile and I think the author hit the nail on the head about the 2008 election and our involvement and subsequent disillusionment. I know I identified very strongly with this part of the article because all of the optimism I felt in 2008 is absolutely gone and filled with far more cynicism about the political process and our ability to achieve change through that system than I was at any point during the Bush administration. That being said I have been taken by surprise by the strength and increasing popularity of the occupy movement so perhaps there is hope, somewhere.

I'm not sure if the links the author makes between the way our parents raised us and some of the personality traits embodied by our generation. While it makes superficial sense to me that this would be the case, I often think that you can make the links you want to make when they rely mostly on perception and not quantifiable fact. That might just be the scientist in me thinking but it is what it is. That being said, I DO think the ideas put forth make sense and I certainly don't think the "participation certificate" and "everyone's a winner" mentality is without some incredibly huge drawbacks. The self esteem figures are really interesting, though. The baseline here for me is the idea that I've held for a long time that our parents (I'm speaking in a very general generational sense here - god knows my mother (and life) drilled into my head that life was not fair) did an incredibly poor job teaching us how cruel life could be and how NOTHING is guaranteed. No, you can't be anything you want and yes you need to get a bit lucky sometimes.

As for the choice of majors of the people in the article, they are obviously fairly poor if the end run is employment at a gainful rate. I think this was discussed a bit in the college thread we had and I think many people will have learned a valuable if expensive lesson as a by product.

In the end, I know that I personally feel very much in line with the conclusions the author makes. I definitely live a frugal life and am dealing with an uncertain future regarding college debt and employment. The fact is that I have a desire to do certain things that is so great I am willing to deal with that uncertainty. In the end I feel I've been very smart in how much debt I've taken on and how much I can expect to leave with once I'm done with my undergrad. I've sought out opportunities to position myself ahead of others in my prospective field. I've already got professional experience in my field and I hope to be adding much more over the next year. I can honestly say I'm doing the best I can to make sure I do make it. But really, I've also stopped worrying so much about what will happen if I don't "make it". Why? Because there's really not much more I can do to ensure that I will. I'll do what it takes and deal with the world that is left to me by previous generations.

I may get unlucky and for whatever reason things may not go my way but I can't control that. It heartens me to learn that many more people in my age or younger are willing to deal with may come and just put their head down and plow forward regardless.

[ElNono]

It's clear that if everyone had the drive and self-motivation, jobs would just magically appear.

[ElNono]

About the article, I started reading it, but I just didn't get the feeling it was talking about me, so I kinda went over the last few pages <shrug>

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

One thing I don't get is how our generation is considered lazy and self-entitled by baby boomers as if their generation was full of extremely hard working, driven people. The only difference is that our generation doesn't have factory jobs paying 50k a year for assembly line work a trained monkey can do. Baby boomers don't have a work ethic THAT much better than ours.

[mavs>spurs]

yeah the same opportunities that these guys grew up with simply aren't there anymore, that's why some of these boomers are so unsympathetic about the whole thing. but the reality is that there are only so many doctors, lawyers, engineers, store managers, mechanics, etc needed, and even if everyone on earth were of superior intelligence and earned a college degree there would still inevitably be unemployment because supply for all these positions would outweigh demand. "go to school and major in a real area of study, you fucking lazy faggot!" simply isn't a good solution.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

You rail against VY and others for making assumptions about you, then make assumptions about me.

Hypocritical much?

Before me, the company never paid bonuses, didnt offer health insurance and did not have a retirement program. It was an alley shop. Do you know what that phrase means?

I pay my Plant Manager (same one from the 3 Kings era) more than you make, trust me. Base salary: $80k. Bonuses always vary and are based on profit percentage, but in 2010 (which was one of our better years comparatively, but will be the low-water mark going forward), he made $115k. 2011 has been an absolutely outstanding year, he can fully expect to get a $20k bonus check this Christmas. He could damn near pay off his house in one year's work.

The foreman made ~$80k. The boys on the floor all make over $50k with overtime and bonuses. These guys on the floor are all under 30 years old, some without a high school diploma, some are convicts, almost all of them are from broken families full of drug addicts, violent deaths and dependance on welfare.

2 of these young guys are the bread winners in their family. They actually support their mothers and sister (+kids) on the wage I pay them.

Ive changed lives, Lumpkins. Ive changed entire families destinies (or fates, if you prefer). Ive touched dozens of people, given them applicable skills and watched them move on to bigger and better things, all while paying them an extremely good wage.

What in the ever-loving fuck have you done, guy?

This is cute you are trying to make a life competition. I am not playing. sorry.

I am assumed that since you are using some form of cad that you are trying to hire engineers for QC and whatnot. Since the article did not mention the $50k, you did, and along with your desire to share your life story, I came to the conclusion that in your job hires you have had entry level folks come in asking for that type of money.

You did after all say that you laugh at them.

Thats why I don't share my personal life here. You chose to and I filled in the gaps but its not as if the stingy manager is a unusual occurrence.

And I am sorry an experienced engineering manager should make at least that much. I am well aware of industry standards so quit acting like that is some huge sum especially considering the output of your plant.

I am guessing the base salary of the guys on the floor is about ~$30k? Whooptie fucking doo.

[vy65]

Lol you don't think life is a competition?

Lol critical thought.

[vy65]

I see all this potential, and I see it squandered. God damn it, an entire generation pumping gas, waiting tables – slaves with white collars. Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy shit we don't need. We're the middle children of history, man. No purpose or place. We have no Great War. No Great Depression. Our great war is a spiritual war. Our great depression is our lives. We've all been raised on television to believe that one day we'd all be millionaires, and movie gods, and rock stars, but we won't. We're slowly learning that fact. And we're very, very pissed off.

[MannyIsGod]

Life isn't a competition, Gordo Gecko.

[Stringer_Bell]

It's clear that if everyone had the drive and self-motivation, jobs would just magically appear.

Yea, thanks to the magic job dust. Too bad you and Hermain Cain smoked it all. :ihit


I, too, started reading the article, didn't feel it said anything special so I quit after the second page. I hate when women think they can write articles longer than two pages. -_-

[vy65]

why not?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

why not?

Time to wax philosophical.

Life certainly can be a struggle.

However when ones life only has meaning when compared to another's then it has no meaning at all.

[mingus]

With drive, commitment, a little luck and the willingness to completely and utterly disregard your personal life as whole, you will succeed.

+1

good story. this country is screwed because there's not enough people in it that've got drive, who are willing to go above and beyond. American exceptionalism is a thing of the past. too many lazy, complaining, entitled people.

[Hungry farmer]

I'm too old for that crap.

[DarkReign]

Didnt read any responses beyond the ones I quoted and Fuzzy's last one.

I am out this thread. You win. Im a horrible person, you know best how things really are and should be. Enjoy yourselves.

[Th'Pusher]

Didnt read any responses beyond the ones I quoted and Fuzzy's last one.

I am out this thread. You win. Im a horrible person, you know best how things really are and should be. Enjoy yourselves.

Fuckin' Quitter.:lol

[Borat Sagyidev]

This pertains to pretty much anything imo. I had a lively "debate" with a youngster about 2 years ago who claimed that she could debunk relativity. She was a 19-year old music major at that. That's what we have today, instant experts at pretty much anything.

Gotta love the You Tube generation. Just enough knowledge to be dangerous.


http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn21064-neutrino-watch-speed-claim-baffles-cern-theoryfest.html

[ElNono]

good story. this country is screwed because there's not enough people in it that've got drive, who are willing to go above and beyond. American exceptionalism is a thing of the past. too many lazy, complaining, entitled people.

91% of able bodied people do work, so I'm not sure where the lazy part comes from. That said 91% just can't all be at the top.

But, American exceptionalism is what brought us to this standard of living that's simply not competitive with the rest of the world. So going away was bound to happen. And it probably won't come back until we're competitive again.

[MannyIsGod]

Didnt read any responses beyond the ones I quoted and Fuzzy's last one.

I am out this thread. You win. Im a horrible person, you know best how things really are and should be. Enjoy yourselves.

Never known you to be one to pick up your ball and go home. I don't know if you read mine or not but I didn't mean any offense by it. I just don't think you really understood what the articles point was because what I got from it was completely different than what you did. If you read the title I think you'll notice its more in line with an idea that this generation has a moxy that has been absent from the previous one.

[ElNono]

Two interesting reads, imo, tangential to the this topic:

A Dose of Financial Reality (http://www.thesimpledollar.com/2011/10/13/a-dose-of-financial-reality/)

Unpaid student loans top $1 trillion (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1011/66347.html)

[ElNono]

As somebody commented somewhere else:

You think the housing collapse was bad? Just wait until you see what happens if THIS group starts going en masse into default. At least with houses, there is some collateral there. What are you going to foreclose on when little Johnny goes into default on his $100,000 loan debt because he can't find a job? You going to foreclose on and resell his worthless degree?

And, sadly, this is only going to get worse. Tuition has been going through the roof at universities in the U.S., even as wages for the jobs post-grads get afterwards have remained stagnant. The wages of parents and post-grads have stayed the same, but they're having to fork out more and more for tuition--driving them to even more debt. So it's hardly surprising to find out that student loan debt has increased over 63% in just ten years.

So what do you think the end result is if this trend continues? Either large segments of the population are going to have to give up on college or they're going to have to put themselves in a position where default is almost an inevitability. I guess that could actually have one positive effect. It could finally dispel the idea that everyone can or should go to college (or that a college degree should be considered a prerequisite for any white collar job).

And, BTW, you know who pays when someone defaults? The U.S. government foots the bill, since these loans are federally guaranteed. So Uncle Sam gets to fund the bailout on that one too, just like he did with the banks and domestic car industry.

[mavs>spurs]

if that happens then the whole damn world will fall into chaos and those who can will revert back to an agrarian economy imho. i'll be chillin out in the mountains somewhere hunting and fishing. good thing my grandpa has a ranch with cattle and stuff like that just in case.

[vy65]

Default would no doubt be painful. But limiting the college-going crowd would be a good thing.

Dunno if that juice is worth the squeeze . . .

[MannyIsGod]

While limiting the college going crowd would be somewhat of a good thing, the fact is we live in world that requires more technical knowledge in almost any job. Its about time we picked up our education BEFORE college.

[ElNono]

Default would no doubt be painful. But limiting the college-going crowd would be a good thing.

Dunno if that juice is worth the squeeze . . .

In which way? Almost 60% of white collar jobs in today's economy require a college degree.

[ElNono]

The "A Dose of Financial Reality" article above I think makes a great point of why older generations don't understand what's the difference between them and this generation.

[101A]

Fuckin' Quitter.:lol

DR is many things.

"Quitter" is not one of them.

[CosmicCowboy]

While limiting the college going crowd would be somewhat of a good thing, the fact is we live in world that requires more technical knowledge in almost any job. Its about time we picked up our education BEFORE college.

No kidding. For those that aren't college bound the vocational training is a joke.

Oh, they probably have some decent health care schools now but training for real world jobs like mechanic, plumber, electrician, a/c repair, etc. is a joke. Fucking shop/ag classes turn out a million "welders" when there are simply no jobs for them.

[greyforest]

Didnt read any responses beyond the ones I quoted and Fuzzy's last one.

I am out this thread. You win. Im a horrible person, you know best how things really are and should be. Enjoy yourselves.

What a little fucking baby. Insulting me and arguing until I make you look like the FUCKING IGNORANT FOOL you are, then you run away like a fucking pussy.


Go. Take your ball and go home. That means that I win.

[CosmicCowboy]

What a little fucking baby. Insulting me and arguing until I make you look like the FUCKING IGNORANT FOOL you are, then you run away like a fucking pussy.


Go. Take your ball and go home. That means that I win.


:lmao


http://www.biosrhythm.com/wp-content/images/zomg-you-ve-won-internet.gif

[greyforest]

:lmao


idiot

Why don't you quote my reply and try to argue with me? Cunt.

[LnGrrrR]

You did after all say that you laugh at them.

Reading comprehension fail.

Here's the original post:


...Maybe youre right. I have friends who are similar to the article, without the student loans in some cases, but they have one prevailing commonality. Theyre lazy and self-entitled. They want to hit the clock, work 40 hours and be paid at least $50k a year with weekends off.

I laugh at them, in real life, to their face.


He's laughing at the lazy idiots, not the people he hires.

[CosmicCowboy]

Why don't you quote my reply and try to argue with me? Cunt.

:lmao

http://www.deviantart.com/download/70116388/Must_Win_Internet_by_DanShive.jpg

[vy65]

While limiting the college going crowd would be somewhat of a good thing, the fact is we live in world that requires more technical knowledge in almost any job. Its about time we picked up our education BEFORE college.

:tu

[MannyIsGod]

In which way? Almost 60% of white collar jobs in today's economy require a college degree.

But they really shouldn't. And I think that in itself is a damn good point that needs to be made. And if they are going to, then you probably do have to find a way to make college more affordable. Community college associates degrees should go up in value, for instance.

[vy65]

In which way? Almost 60% of white collar jobs in today's economy require a college degree.

Limiting the number of people with a BA is one of the best ways to make a college education meaningful again.

I think the point (of the thread) is that people shouldn't think that they're entitled to a white collar job anymore.

[MannyIsGod]

The white collar/blue collar designations are also becoming a thing of the past. Not all white collar jobs are created equal. You shouldn't need a college degree to be a data entry monkey, for instance.

[vy65]

I agree with that too.

We have to get rid of the idea that a college education opens doors to a good-paying, entry level white collar job. This isn't 1964 anymore.

[greyforest]

That lie is not going anywhere - not when college education is a trillion+ dollar industry which relies on people believing it.

[DarrinS]

What a little fucking baby. Insulting me and arguing until I make you look like the FUCKING IGNORANT FOOL you are, then you run away like a fucking pussy.


Go. Take your ball and go home. That means that I win.



Damn. What an overreaction. The "little fucking baby" might be you.

[LnGrrrR]

Time to wax philosophical.

Life certainly can be a struggle.

However when ones life only has meaning when compared to another's then it has no meaning at all.

Life certainly is a competition of sorts though. We're all competing for limited resources.

[vy65]

Psychologists should bethink themselves before putting down the instinct of self-preservation as the cardinal instinct of an organic being. A living thing seeks above all to discharge its strength--life itself is will to power; self-preservation is only one of the indirect and most frequent results thereof. In short, here, as everywhere else, let us beware of superfluous teleological principles!--one of which is the instinct of self-preservation (we owe it to Spinoza's inconsistency). It is thus, in effect, that method ordains, which must be essentially economy of principles.

[LnGrrrR]

In which way? Almost 60% of white collar jobs in today's economy require a college degree.

I think that job requirements would adjust in a world where college degrees weren't as ubiquitous.

[LnGrrrR]

Psychologists should bethink themselves before putting down the instinct of self-preservation as the cardinal instinct of an organic being. A living thing seeks above all to discharge its strength--life itself is will to power; self-preservation is only one of the indirect and most frequent results thereof. In short, here, as everywhere else, let us beware of superfluous teleological principles!--one of which is the instinct of self-preservation (we owe it to Spinoza's inconsistency). It is thus, in effect, that method ordains, which must be essentially economy of principles.

That's a whole lot of words to say "Might makes right".

[MannyIsGod]

But thats a competition for resources, thats not life. This is of course all philosophical, but in my opinion, Life is about experiences, learning, and being happy. For me, I just want to experience as much as possible, learn as much as possible, and be as happy as possible. The enjoyment of my life is not relative to someone else's enjoyment of their life. We're not competing for a limited supply of satisfaction.

For someone else who defines their life as a race to the top against others and trying to be the best relative to others then life could certainly be a competition but I happen to think thats a flawed viewpoint that has to do more with one's worldview than an actual competition.

While we those resources we compete with each other for can be a key to satisfaction I think one of the main points of the article is that our generation is learning that's not the only way.

EDIT: @LNG

I really should learn to use the quote function, tbh.

[vy65]

That's a whole lot of words to say "Might makes right".

Doesn't it?

[LnGrrrR]

But thats a competition for resources, thats not life. This is of course all philosophical, but in my opinion, Life is about experiences, learning, and being happy. For me, I just want to experience as much as possible, learn as much as possible, and be as happy as possible. The enjoyment of my life is not relative to someone else's enjoyment of their life. We're not competing for a limited supply of satisfaction.

Can you live without resources? Sure, there's more to "life" than resources, but life requires one (resources) more than the other (happiness, etc etc).


For someone else who defines their life as a race to the top against others and trying to be the best relative to others then life could certainly be a competition but I happen to think thats a flawed viewpoint that has to do more with one's worldview than an actual competition.

We all need to consume resources; however, those resources are not free to all. Therefore, at some level, life is always a competition for resource. We're always consuming.

Now, that somewhat disappears as one's basic necessities are taken care of. Then the "competition" shifts to satisfaction, however one finds it, which is far more nebulous. But at the base, life is about competition.


While we those resources we compete with each other for can be a key to satisfaction I think one of the main points of the article is that our generation is learning that's not the only way.

What do you mean by "those resources"? Our generation isn't learning "That's not the only way"... the very opposite, in fact. They are learning that having to live with less IS the only way, so we're adapting by setting it up as "We don't need extra resources to be happy".

Sure, you don't need them. But I"m sure 99% of those same people wouldn't turn down a winning lottery ticket if offered.

[Winehole23]

Psychologists should bethink themselves before putting down the instinct of self-preservation as the cardinal instinct of an organic being. A living thing seeks above all to discharge its strength--life itself is will to power; self-preservation is only one of the indirect and most frequent results thereof. In short, here, as everywhere else, let us beware of superfluous teleological principles!--one of which is the instinct of self-preservation (we owe it to Spinoza's inconsistency). It is thus, in effect, that method ordains, which must be essentially economy of principles.http://books.google.com/books?id=m4FpCC8FX30C&pg=PA29

[LnGrrrR]

Doesn't it?

Not really.

Edit: Ah, misread that at first. Thought you were quoting Spinoza, not Nietzche. Besides Ayn Rand, I think it telling that no one else espouses Nietzche's "might makes right" theories.

I'm more of an existentialist myself. (The Sartre kind, not the horribly depressed Kierkegaard type.)

[CosmicCowboy]

http://books.google.com/books?id=m4FpCC8FX30C&pg=PA29

:lmao

busted

[greyforest]

Damn. What an overreaction. The "little fucking baby" might be you.

Really? Lets see.

DarkReign posted this wall of text riddled with insults and assumptions against me:


Sure.



Bankruptcy isnt usually an option for most people. The only people I know who are declared bankruptcy are the super-rich (...and its only Chapter 13 on a failed business) and those who cannot manage money further than their front pocket.

Both of which I have no sympathy for.



I graduated from high school in 1998. I am only mildly older than you (by the sounds of it) and those being described in the article.

Here is what I know:

I am from a middle-class to upper-middle class area. Lots of UAW kids, a few Automotive Executives kids (who had awesome parties).

I am a UAW kid, with a father that worked every moment of everyday of his short life as an electrician. He could never afford to send me or my two brothers to college.

You had two choices: Get a scholarship or take out loans.

Even then, I did not see the logic in taking student loans. I knew from a very young age that there are only a couple ways to become wealthy. The vast majority of the wealthy are all business owners/inventors.

IIRC, in Europe, in order to open a business, one must be a professional of that business (ie Start a residential electrical business, the owner must be a master electrician). Dont know if thats true, but just what I heard (albeit years ago). In the US, not so. Lucky me.

I have had a job since I was 11 years old. I used to work 20 hours a week washing dishes at an Italian restaurant. My dad was always doing side jobs, so I worked with him, too, throughout my young adult life. From the restaurant, I worked everywhere. Burger King, McDonalds, multiple restaurants and grocery stores doing anything and everything. This all before I graduated high school.

I graduated barely (21.5 credits), mostly because I do not like to get up early (big shout out to the guy who used to wake me up every morning), or attend school (older friends my whole life, they graduated 3 years earlier than me, that sucked) or be sober (woo-ha!). I immediately hired into an $8.00 an hour job welding brackets and bullshit by the truckload. I was too busy getting high in auto shop so I never actually welded before in my life.

Seeing as the owner didnt much give a shit about anything but getting product out the door, it was basically a job-party. Fit right in.

Wages blew, I was going nowhere and knew it (besides, had to get up too early). So my revelation was to become a furniture salesman. What a joke. 20 years old, wearing a suit and pitching lines rehearsed in training about products I never cared about. Spent most of my time at lunch and smoking outside. Failed miserably, was fired for under-performance. That was the first and only time in my life I had been fired.

Didnt know what to do at that point. I was kicked out by my father when I was 17 ("...got in the way of his pussy" was how he put it), had been living with the same roommate up until this point. His girlfriend got pregnant, they were getting married and moving (which obviously did not include me).

No job, nowhere to live, no contact with my father in years (Regrets, Ive had a few)...yeah, thats failure. Thats destitute, thats desperate, thats fucking life.

What do you do? Cry? Whine? Moan? Complain and blame?

Or was it that I didnt take school seriously enough, that I didnt respect my father's new wife enough (no matter how much I despised her), that I never took one job seriously enough to completion?

Was it the world's fault or mine? Easy answer.

So I got a job at some small shop sweeping the floors for $8 an hour at age 21. In 6 years, I was and am currently running that company. Finally, I committed to something. Finally, I chose a direction and went for it.

I was sweeping floors. One day I was asked "Know anything about computers?" Im a gamer, "Sure do, whatcha need?" They needed a guy who was willing to be trained in CAD software to detail prints. The engineers were/are busy designing this stuff, not making prints for the fab shop. This was a HUGE moment in my life, I thought it was big then seeing as I would actually work at fucking desk!, but looking back on it, it was much much more than that.

I met my boss (remember, I was 21). He was 18 years old. Dean's list every year at Kettering Engineering (aka GM Tech). Brilliant little fucker, he was, cocky too. But I would be too if I had mastered Calc2 at 16 years old. His first question "Ever worked in AutoCAD before?" Nope. "Drafting class?" Sure, but I never paid attention (ie skipped it so I could party). "know anything about computers?" That I do, could build one start to finish, BIOS, flashing, operating system (Windows of course), I can do that.

He was going back to school in 2 months. Kettering is extremely hard to get into. The curriculum calls for 6 months working, 6 months at school, or some such schedule (cant remember). Either way, he was going back to school. I had 2 months to learn two new programs (AutoCAD and Solidworks) and the basics of engineering, detailing and tolerancing with ZERO prior experience.

I slept at work, literally, in my car on occasion. My mother let me stay with her every now and then to make sure I was eating, so I could shower, etc.

He left for school and I took over his job. The first batch of prints that hit the floor, I was a nervous wreck. I am not a math guru, furthest I ever went was Trig, which I bombed out of because it was 1st hour (again, partying). Cosign, blablabla, none of it made any sense, yet these machinists knew how to calculate such things on a calculator and would come to me with questions about shit I didnt really understand.

You know what? I fucking nailed it. Fucking nailed it. Homerun, out of the stadium. 4 machines from scratch were designed, detailed (me), assembled (a little me), run-off and shipped while Whiz Kid was at school. Every print that hit the floor was mine and mine alone. Were there problems? Oh yeah. Did I cost the company money? Maybe a couple grand, in total. Did over $1.5 million dollars in equipment get invoiced with my initials in the title blocks? You fucking bet.

Big accomplishment for me then, not so much now looking back on it. A monkey can detail a print, but I didnt know that at the time. But regardless, I showed potential, drive, commitment and initiative.

The next thing I was asked to do was Quality Control at the company's second plant. This plant was/is small compared. I was sent to a 2 week class to learn the inspection software (as I already knew about prints, tolerancing, GD&T, etc) as the owner's partner and him had a falling out. The minority owner's son used to do all the ISO certifications, Quality Manuals, inspections and control documents. All of which I knew nothing about.

Started off just writing the inspection programs (thank you video games and scripts!) and then inspecting the parts associated with those programs. Which lead into my introduction to the International Organization for Standardization, ISO for short (you think it would be IOS, but Apple would have pitched a bitch, Im sure). I then had to learn about one thousand acronyms that, to this day, I hate beyond belief. What a fucking charade. Whatever.

At this point, I was making $14 an hour at age 24, I rewrote the Quality Manuals, the Control Documents and worked with the Cert rep on getting our company re-certified (have to do it every year, it sucks). Nailed it. Homerun. More impressive than detailing prints, but again, looking back on it, ISO is a fucking pyramid scheme and anyone who actually likes it enough to do it for a living is a masochist.

Owner can no longer handle running the day-to-day operation of this second plant. His main business is blowing up in a big way whereas as this little shit-shop is losing money every year of its existence. Not much money, less than $100k a year or breaking even, but when your other company is making millions, your priorities shift.

So, he calls a meeting with me (now the Quality Manager), the Plant Manager and the Office Manager and lays it out. "This company is failing, I can no longer do it everyday, I am probably going to shutter it". Fear of God, yes. I had busted my balls, never asked for a raise in my life, was making shit for what I was doing, but really, really enjoyed not having to bust my back to make a decent living as a single male with no children (like my father did and my brothers still do).

The PM and OM were speechless, I was not. I coerced the owner into letting "We 3 Kings" run the day-to-day for one year, possibly two. If it wasnt profitable by then, so be it. This company was his baby, he always referred to it as his 3rd child, he never took a paycheck his entire time as owner. He didnt want to close it, he just couldnt throw money out the window no matter how much he was making with his recently bought second company.

He, surprisingly, agreed.

Ive gone on long enough with this story. Summary from here: Lost money the first year, but showed promise with an expanding customer base (me, on the road, A LOT). Second year, became apparent that the "3 Kings" paradigm wasnt working, too many conflicts of interest (one of the first things the office manager did as a boss was give herself, the plant manager and me a raise. I was finally a salaried employee...first time in my life. $800 gross a week). Owner named me the General Manager in April 2006, 5 years after I was hired as a shop bitch sweeping floors and driving the HiLo, of his company that employed 15 people (16 including me).

It was rough. I had to learn proper accounting, payroll, taxes, business taxes, SBT taxes (Michigan thing, dont ask), 941 Quarterly reports, the difference between an S-Corporation and any other incorporation (pretty cool when youre a small outfit). I had to manage egos who didnt respect me as their boss, I had to fire people, knock people's pay down all while you watched a grown man cry that he will lose his house, I had to fire the Office Manager as she lazy made even worse that she didnt know shit about proper accounting or computers in general. She thought the fax machine was a big deal and hadnt watched one second of TV in 15 years. I cultivated customer relationships with people that were more than twice my age in a business (Automotive) that frowns upon youth in general running shit.

You know what? I fucking nailed it. Homerun, in the seats this time, next time it'll be out of the stadium. I inherited a struggling alley shop that worked from hand-to-mouth job-wise, which had gross sales under $300k and was hemorrhaging money. Today, I turned it into a profitable company with various private and government contracts guaranteeing X amount of dollars in revenue for the next 6+ years (with more to come), that now has gross sales over $2 million dollars, a retirement plan (me), health insurance (me) and employee bonuses twice a year (also me).

I pay more money in personal taxes than most people on this board make in a year, jointly.

Dont fucking tell me about what works and what doesnt, because here is what I know. I work, you dont. With drive, commitment, a little luck and the willingness to completely and utterly disregard your personal life as whole, you will succeed.

There are other ways of achieving the same things, with even better circumstances, I know this. But I do not sympathize with those who think working 9-5, 5 days a week as "working hard".

To this day, even with a profitable company and a cushy lifestyle, this success has driven me to be more successful. I work just as hard if not harder now, longer hours, sleepless nights, bigger company investments and risks. I want more. When that fire burns dim, I will retire a wealthy, and more importantly, happy, satisfied man.

I replied to his novel:



I am employed, so your assumption is wrong. You are combative, hurling insults and profanity with absolutely no provocation.

Let me summarize your wall of text for everybody!


I became successful so that means everybody can. Bootstraps bootstraps bootstraps.

Your anecdote is not indicative of everyone's situation. The plural of "anecdote" is something called "data":

http://static8.businessinsider.com/image/4e9461b0ecad04156c000028-547/and-its-not-like-unemployment-these-days-is-a-quick-painful-jolt-a-record-percentage-of-unemployed-people-have-been-unemployed-for-longer-than-6-months.jpg

http://static7.businessinsider.com/image/4e9461fdeab8ead748000035-547/and-its-not-just-construction-workers-who-cant-find-jobs-the-median-duration-of-all-unemployment-is-also-near-an-all-time-high.jpg

http://static8.businessinsider.com/image/4e9479026bb3f76522000000-547/and-thats-just-people-who-meet-the-strict-criteria-for-unemployed-include-people-working-part-time-who-want-to-work-full-time-plus-some-people-who-havent-looked-for-a-job-in-a-while-and-unemployments-at-17.jpg

http://static8.businessinsider.com/image/4e9461ae6bb3f7186300005a-547/and-so-in-conclusion-well-end-with-another-look-at-the-money-shotthe-one-overarching-reason-the-wall-street-protesters-are-so-upset-wages-as-a-percent-of-the-economy-again-its-basically-the-lowest-it-has-ever-been.jpg

I don't think there would be this many articles about adult children moving back home unless there was something seriously wrong with our society and economy:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/10/15/MNM41LHSAT.DTL

The U.S. Census Bureau says that from 2007, just before the recession hit, to 2010, a year after the recession officially ended, the number of adults ages 25 to 34 living with their parents shot up 26 percent, from 4.7 million to 5.9 million.

Unemployment for adults younger than 24 is double the national mark of 9.1 percent. According to a Purdue University study, more than two-thirds of parents are giving their grown children financial assistance, double the rate of 20 years ago.

http://www.digtriad.com/news/article/192459/57/Economy-Has-Parents-Adult-Children-Learning-To-Coexist-Again-

http://www.andersonvalleypost.com/news/2011/oct/18/where-shmae-moving-back-home/

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124736728106627671.html

http://calcoastnews.com/2011/10/%E2%80%98boomerang%E2%80%99-youth-returning-home/




Since you only seem to understand anecdotes, I will share mine.

I get paid nearly three times as much money as an independent contractor than the job I was offered in my field after I graduated (Biology degree, 4.0 GPA, children's cancer research). All of my similarly-aged cousins who have graduated college (nearly a dozen people) have no means of providing support for a middle-class family. That's quite statistically significant.

To try and blame my generation for having few jobs is morally repugnant. We had nothing to do with all of our predecessors completely fucking the economy up beyond repair.

Which he didn't bother to read:

Didnt read any responses beyond the ones I quoted and Fuzzy's last one.

I am out this thread. You win. Im a horrible person, you know best how things really are and should be. Enjoy yourselves.

That's acting like a little fucking baby.

[vy65]

:lmao

busted

huh?

[Winehole23]

Pierre Menard, Author of the Quixote : (http://www.coldbacon.com/writing/borges-quixote.html)


He did not want to compose another Quixote —which is easy— but the Quixote itself. Needless to say, he never contemplated a mechanical transcription of the original; he did not propose to copy it. His admirable intention was to produce a few pages which would coincide—word for word and line for line—with those of Miguel de Cervantes.

[CosmicCowboy]

:lmao

Try some preparation H for that butthurt, greyforest.

[Winehole23]

huh?It's customary to give attribution here, but if you want everyone to think you said it, there's no need.

[vy65]

Not really.

Edit: Ah, misread that at first. Thought you were quoting Spinoza, not Nietzche. Besides Ayn Rand, I think it telling that no one else espouses Nietzche's "might makes right" theories.

I'm more of an existentialist myself. (The Sartre kind, not the horribly depressed Kierkegaard type.)

Whether or not other thinkers agree or disagree - I think that if you look at what's happening today, you definitely see what ol' Fritz has been talking about. Hierarchical structures imposed by people with power reinforce themselves to the benefit of those with power and to the detriment of those without it. The powerless, in turn, resent those with power by demonizing them: kill the evil bankers etc. etc. etc.

[vy65]

It's customary to give attribution, but if you want everyone to think you said it, there's no need.

Fair enough. Didn't think anyone would actually attribute that to me though.

[Winehole23]

Not everyone reads Nietzsche.

[ElNono]

But they really shouldn't. And I think that in itself is a damn good point that needs to be made. And if they are going to, then you probably do have to find a way to make college more affordable. Community college associates degrees should go up in value, for instance.


Limiting the number of people with a BA is one of the best ways to make a college education meaningful again.

I think the point (of the thread) is that people shouldn't think that they're entitled to a white collar job anymore.


I think that job requirements would adjust in a world where college degrees weren't as ubiquitous.

I think the world already adjusted and shipped those jobs somewhere else.

From one of those articles I linked: 70+% with high school education had jobs in 1970, about 41% do today.

So then you end up with the dilemma. Not everybody that skips school can start their own business, or be successful if they try (and drive only gets you that far).

[LnGrrrR]

The best thing that Nietzche ever said was that the strongest society can be measured by the amount of parasites it could support. I thought that was rather brilliant.

[vy65]

Not everyone reads Nietzsche.

Unfortunately.

[LnGrrrR]

Whether or not other thinkers agree or disagree - I think that if you look at what's happening today, you definitely see what ol' Fritz has been talking about. Hierarchical structures imposed by people with power reinforce themselves to the benefit of those with power and to the detriment of those without it. The powerless, in turn, resent those with power by demonizing them: kill the evil bankers etc. etc. etc.

Capability =/= Right, in my eyes. The problem with that thinking is that it's a shell game, in which there is no ending. There's always someone with a bigger gun out there, and a system of morality that defines "moral authority" as "whoever has the biggest gun at the moment" is rather worthless as a code of values to live by.

[greyforest]

:lmao

Try some preparation H for that butthurt, greyforest.

Butthurt:


Didnt read any responses beyond the ones I quoted and Fuzzy's last one.

I am out this thread. You win. Im a horrible person, you know best how things really are and should be. Enjoy yourselves.

Didnt read any responses beyond the ones I quoted and Fuzzy's last one.

I am out this thread. You win. Im a horrible person, you know best how things really are and should be. Enjoy yourselves.

Didnt read any responses beyond the ones I quoted and Fuzzy's last one.

I am out this thread. You win. Im a horrible person, you know best how things really are and should be. Enjoy yourselves.



That butt hurts so bad it left the thread and never came back for another assraping.

[vy65]

The best thing that Nietzche ever said was that the strongest society can be measured by the amount of parasites it could support. I thought that was rather brilliant.

My favorite:


There is nothing very odd about lambs disliking birds of prey, but this is no reason for holding it against large birds of prey that they carry off lambs. And when the lambs whisper among themselves, "These birds of prey are evil, and does not this give us a right to say that whatever is the opposite of a bird of prey must be good?" there is nothing intrinsically wrong with such an argument -- though the birds of prey will look somewhat quizzically and say, "We have nothing against these good lambs; in fact, we love them; nothing tastes better than a tender lamb." -- to expect that strength will not manifest itself as strength, as the desire to overcome, to appropriate, to have enemies, obstacles, and triumphs, is every bit as absurd as to expect that weakness will manifest itself as strength.

[vy65]

Capability =/= Right, in my eyes. The problem with that thinking is that it's a shell game, in which there is no ending. There's always someone with a bigger gun out there, and a system of morality that defines "moral authority" as "whoever has the biggest gun at the moment" is rather worthless as a code of values to live by.

You're right - that's why "systems of morality" come up with words like "fairness," "equality," "ethics," etc.

You're not really disputing the underlying facts. You're just saying that's a pretty shitty existence. Welcome to reality.

[MannyIsGod]

I think the world already adjusted and shipped those jobs somewhere else.

From one of those articles I linked: 70+% with high school education had jobs in 1970, about 41% do today.

So then you end up with the dilemma. Not everybody that skips school can start their own business, or be successful if they try (and drive only gets you that far).

LOL good fucking point.

[CosmicCowboy]

Butthurt:







That butt hurts so bad it left the thread and never came back for another assraping.

http://www.forumspile.com/Care-Stadium.jpg

[ElNono]

I actually agree with greyforest that DR's account, while noble, inspirational, thrilling and well intended, is just a tree in the forest.

I thank DR for taking the time, but there's no magic bullet out there. If we're going with anecdotes, I've seen people pour their heart and souls into business endeavors, and not make it. Or people that thought they made it, only for some economic crisis to come around and tilt their plan upside down, and leave them at square zero again. It's a complex world out there.

[LnGrrrR]

There is nothing very odd about lambs disliking birds of prey, but this is no reason for holding it against large birds of prey that they carry off lambs. And when the lambs whisper among themselves, "These birds of prey are evil, and does not this give us a right to say that whatever is the opposite of a bird of prey must be good?" there is nothing intrinsically wrong with such an argument -- though the birds of prey will look somewhat quizzically and say, "We have nothing against these good lambs; in fact, we love them; nothing tastes better than a tender lamb." -- to expect that strength will not manifest itself as strength, as the desire to overcome, to appropriate, to have enemies, obstacles, and triumphs, is every bit as absurd as to expect that weakness will manifest itself as strength.


Trying to equate animal thought to rational humans is fallacious. He also tries to conflate "strength manifesting as strength" with "might makes right".

You could take the same paragraph above and use it to justify rape.


There is nothing very odd about attractive women disliking rapists, but this is no reason for holding it against rapists that they rape attractive women. And when the attractive women whisper among themselves, "These rapists are evil, and does not this give us a right to say that whatever is the opposite of a rapist must be good?" there is nothing intrinsically wrong with such an argument -- though the rapists will look somewhat quizzically and say, "We have nothing against these good attractive women; in fact, we love them; nothing feels better than a tender attractive woman." -- to expect that strength will not manifest itself as strength, as the desire to overcome, to appropriate, to have enemies, obstacles, and triumphs, is every bit as absurd as to expect that weakness will manifest itself as strength.

See how easy is becomes to justify such a practice?

[greyforest]

The thing people don't ever seem to realize is that parasites come in two varieties: small (people on welfare, elderly people, disabled to where they cant work, etc etc), and behemoth (politicians, lobbyists, bankers, etc etc).

The behemoth parasites just always point blame to the small ones, when really its a pot meets kettle situation.

Taking from society more than you give to it is being a parasite, and it occurs at every economic strata in huge scales.

[vy65]

I think you missed the point of the quote, Ln.

[LnGrrrR]

You're right - that's why "systems of morality" come up with words like "fairness," "equality," "ethics," etc.

Yes, but Neitzche/Rand seemingly conflate the two.


You're not really disputing the underlying facts. You're just saying that's a pretty shitty existence. Welcome to reality.

I've been in reality all along. But thanks for the welcome anyways.

[ElNono]

You would think humans can act better than raw animals... the problem is with the people that subscribe to the notion that they don't have to.

[LnGrrrR]

I think you missed the point of the quote, Ln.

Feel free to illuminate then. Speaking in your own words might make that easier.

[greyforest]

The point of the quote is that humans, and nature, has and will always be predatory.

[vy65]

I think the error is in thinking that humans can act better than animals. Last I checked, ants never built little ant Auschwitz's.

We're animals. Thinking that we're somehow noble and "above it" is just naivety.

[Winehole23]

It's a complex world out there.Full of simple minds. The simplifying power of thought is its chief attraction.

[ElNono]

I think the error is in thinking that humans can act better than animals. Last I checked, ants never built little ant Auschwitz's.

We're animals. Thinking that we're somehow noble and "above it" is just naivety.

Nobody is saying we're not animals. But we're certainly above any other non-human animal. The fact that we're posting here, and that we're rationalizing Nietzche is just part of that confirmation.

[greyforest]

Absolutely.

Here's a cute graph. This is what happens to the population of bacteria over time in a test tube:

http://water.me.vccs.edu/courses/env108/changes/growthcurve.gif

And here's the population of earth:

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRnYyG2mxms1sqhucpDQh7vZtNE7UvKv uuP9lwFiveelxdifoiwawaGaQ8thA

We're gonna turn the corner soon, and nobody understands why.

[vy65]

Feel free to illuminate then. Speaking in your own words might make that easier.

Well, I wouldn't take it so literal.

I think his point is that those without power invent moral systems to castigate those with power. In the quote - the lambs decry the birds of prey as evil in order to restrict the bird's exercise of power. It's no different than Christianity's invention of evil as an adjective to describe the powerful. It's a moral economy used by the resentful to denigrate the powerful.

Nietzsche's point is to show that the powerful carry no such resentment to the weak: lambs are tasty. The last bit about strength manifesting itself as strength, I think, goes hand-in-hand with his notion that life is struggle, competition, war, etc...

As for the rape analogy, I think a fairly strong argument could be made that the rapist is animated by resentment of his own powerlessness and/or the woman he rapes - not the sort of thing Nietzsche would condone.

[vy65]

Nobody is saying we're not animals. But we're certainly above any other non-human animal. The fact that we're posting here, and that we're rationalizing Nietzche is just part of that confirmation.

I think that makes us different and not above them. But potato potato.

[LnGrrrR]

The point of the quote is that humans, and nature, has and will always be predatory.

That has nothing to do with the morality of said predation.

[Winehole23]

It's a moral economy used by the resentful to denigrate the powerful. Pissants.

[vy65]

Nevermind

[greyforest]

That has nothing to do with the morality of said predation.

The quote tries to explain that the morality is ambiguous. Predators simply see it as their nature to eat prey. It's only the prey that feels it is immoral.

[LnGrrrR]

I think the error is in thinking that humans can act better than animals. Last I checked, ants never built little ant Auschwitz's.

We're animals. Thinking that we're somehow noble and "above it" is just naivety.

We can think rationally. Trying to say, "We're animals" and using it to justify any sort of action is nonsense and poppycock. Humans certainly can act better than animals, and worse than animals. We wouldn't blame a chimp for raping another chimp; we'd think it was horrible, sure, but we wouldn't blame the chimp since he doesn't have the rational process to determine it as "right" or "wrong", in the same way that we don't blame mentally handicapped people from doing inappropriate things in public.

[ElNono]

I think that makes us different and not above them. But potato potato.

I disagree. I would say, on average, much, much far above them would be a reasonable description.

For example, I don't know that a non-human can stop being predatory out of their own volition. I know humans that opt to, can.

[LnGrrrR]

The quote tries to explain that the morality is ambiguous. Predators simply see it as their nature to eat prey. It's only the prey that feels it is immoral.

Again, bullshit. The predators in said example obviously don't understand morality, because they're fucking birds.

Most people who do immoral acts realize such, and manifest it in various ways, whether psychological, physiological, mental, etc etc.

Humans that perform immoral acts and don't have realize it we call psychopaths/sociopaths, and we take them out of society, for good reason.

[vy65]

We can think rationally. Trying to say, "We're animals" and using it to justify any sort of action is nonsense and poppycock. Humans certainly can act better than animals, and worse than animals. We wouldn't blame a chimp for raping another chimp; we'd think it was horrible, sure, but we wouldn't blame the chimp since he doesn't have the rational process to determine it as "right" or "wrong", in the same way that we don't blame mentally handicapped people from doing inappropriate things in public.

I wasn't using the whole "we're animals" bit to justify anything. I was just saying we're animals. My only point is that there's a lot wrong in thinking we're above animals/are somehow unique/etc..

And lol chimp rape.

[ElNono]

We can think rationally. Trying to say, "We're animals" and using it to justify any sort of action is nonsense and poppycock.

This is exactly what I was pointing at. I don't know what non-humans can choose certain things. Humans certainly can. To try to justify our choice by saying "we just animals" is, frankly, intellectually lazy.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Never known you to be one to pick up your ball and go home. I don't know if you read mine or not but I didn't mean any offense by it. I just don't think you really understood what the articles point was because what I got from it was completely different than what you did. If you read the title I think you'll notice its more in line with an idea that this generation has a moxy that has been absent from the previous one.

Hes just got mad and decided to play the i am a man because of X income game. Thing is that i am very aware of the industry he is talking about and I know he is full of shit. $50k with overtime on a 60 hour work week is about $13 or so an hour.

He just works them like dogs. He is responding to engineering students that go in asking for a salary of $40k to $50k which is standard and laughs at them. He claims he hires convicts and addicts well I have a notion that has more to do with his pay scale then his benevolence.

$80k for an engineering manager with any experience. Here are the payscales for the listed opening in Chicago which is close to Detroit.

http://www.careerbuilder.com/Jobs/Channel/engineering/Chicago%20Illinois

Its fucking laughable.

[vy65]

Humans that perform immoral acts and don't have realize it we call psychopaths/sociopaths, and we take them out of society, for good reason.

Would you consider female genital mutilation an immoral act? Do you think those that condone/participate in the practice recognize it as such?

[vy65]

Again, bullshit. The predators in said example obviously don't understand morality, because they're fucking birds.

Most people who do immoral acts realize such, and manifest it in various ways, whether psychological, physiological, mental, etc etc.

Humans that perform immoral acts and don't have realize it we call psychopaths/sociopaths, and we take them out of society, for good reason.

Also, I think you're taking that quote a little too literal.

[vy65]

Hes just got mad and decided to play the i am a man because of X income game. Thing is that i am very aware of the industry he is talking about and I know he is full of shit. $50k with overtime on a 60 hour work week is about $13 or so an hour.

Actually that was me

Lol 3x your salary

Lol critical thinking

[greyforest]

Again, bullshit. The predators in said example obviously don't understand morality, because they're fucking birds.

The lambs and birds actually represent humans. It's like Animal Farm!


people who do immoral acts realize such, and manifest it in various ways, whether psychological, physiological, mental, etc etc.

Humans that perform immoral acts and don't have realize it we call psychopaths/sociopaths, and we take them out of society, for good reason.

Bullshit. Nearly every single CEO and world leader is a psychopath or sociopath. It's been that way for fucking millenia. Our system rewards psychopaths and sociopaths unless they break the law and get caught.

[LnGrrrR]

I think his point is that those without power invent moral systems to castigate those with power. In the quote - the lambs decry the birds of prey as evil in order to restrict the bird's exercise of power. It's no different than Christianity's invention of evil as an adjective to describe the powerful. It's a moral economy used by the resentful to denigrate the powerful.

Evil has existed before Christianity; it is not fundamental to either the rich or poor, strong or weak. But the strong have a greater ability to do greater evil in some instances, because having greater power means having greater resources/ability to effect changes.

Again, is a man raping a woman evil because it denies the woman her liberty of self, or is it evil because a bunch of people without power decried it as evil?


Nietzsche's point is to show that the powerful carry no such resentment to the weak: lambs are tasty.

That's a Capt. Obvious statement right there... why would the rich be resentful of those beneath them, which does not threaten them, which they gain resources from? It would make no sense.


As for the rape analogy, I think a fairly strong argument could be made that the rapist is animated by resentment of his own powerlessness and/or the woman he rapes - not the sort of thing Nietzsche would condone.

That's just bullshit shell-games. Strength is strength; you can't take one form of strength and put it up on a pedestal, then take another form of strength and claim it's not REALLY strength. If you want to say "might makes right" then you have to subscribe to all that entails.

[LnGrrrR]

Would you consider female genital mutilation an immoral act? Do you think those that condone/participate in the practice recognize it as such?

From the limited amt I've read, it seems to be somewhat immoral, since there are no benefits to the procedure. Also, it's usually done without any sort of anesthesia.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Actually that was me

Lol 3x your salary

Lol critical thinking

Quoting Nietzche and then using money as the basis for the will to power is pretty fucking sad.

Yeah critical thinking. Being able to read something and then apply it is a facet of that. You deriding the notion is not surprising.

And what is really funny is how fixated you are on trying to guess my income so you can denigrate it. You are a sad little man.

[Borat Sagyidev]

http://www.seanbonner.com/blog/archives/piratesarecool.jpg

[ElNono]

Nearly every single CEO and world leader is a psychopath or sociopath. It's been that way for fucking millenia. Our system rewards psychopaths and sociopaths unless they break the law and get caught.

But the red herring is to justify them by saying "well, we're all animals". I can understand a lion thinking "I'm hungry" and going out there and eating 5 people. The lion doesn't have rational thinking. He doesn't understand that those 5 people have families, and they're not coming back home.

We're light years away from raw animals. Trying to justify our choices by some link to the animal world is patently lame.

[Winehole23]

And lol chimp rape.Our resident overman apparently finds non-consensual simian courtship amusing.

Since distinctions between human beings and other animals are ersatz and bad philosophy, isn't the distinction between rape and animal rutting artificial as well?

[vy65]

Evil has existed before Christianity; it is not fundamental to either the rich or poor, strong or weak. But the strong have a greater ability to do greater evil in some instances, because having greater power means having greater resources/ability to effect changes.

What makes you say that? The whole Pre-Socratic/Dionysian tradition the Greeks had suggests the opposite (in the terms we're using here)


Again, is a man raping a woman evil because it denies the woman her liberty of self, or is it evil because a bunch of people without power decried it as evil?

I never said it was "evil." I said we can criticize rape as an act of resentment.


That's a Capt. Obvious statement right there... why would the rich be resentful of those beneath them, which does not threaten them, which they gain resources from? It would make no sense.

I think Foucault said something like the work of the philosopher is to make facile gestures seem difficult. You're right that it's obvious. But the point being made here is that people espouse the opposite belief system - rather than recognizing the mentality of the powerful, the mentality devoid of resentment, people instead invent terms like evil and systems of morality which use these terms to castigate the powerful.


That's just bullshit shell-games. Strength is strength; you can't take one form of strength and put it up on a pedestal, then take another form of strength and claim it's not REALLY strength. If you want to say "might makes right" then you have to subscribe to all that entails.

You saying that it's bullshit doesn't make it so. I explained why the rape example doesn't really fit here. I think you're point is turning into "you can't say that because there will always be someone more powerful." So what?

[vy65]

From the limited amt I've read, it seems to be somewhat immoral, since there are no benefits to the procedure. Also, it's usually done without any sort of anesthesia.

The practitioners of FGM certainly don't think that they're acting immorally. In fact, they think quite the opposite. Are they sociopaths?

[vy65]

Our resident overman apparently finds non-consensual simian courtship amusing.

Since distinctions between human beings and other animals are ersatz and bad philosophy, isn't the distinction between rape and animal rutting artificial as well?

Maybe.

And come on, you didn't chuckle a little?

[CosmicCowboy]

I'm going to go with LnGrrrR's take on rape. Just because our society view rapists as these fundamentally flawed and weak individuals that has not been the case historically. Take our native american culture for instance. Rape was just a way of life when one tribe won a battle over the other tribe. The winners raped and enslaved the losers women. The strongest in the tribe were the biggest rapists.

[LnGrrrR]

The lambs and birds actually represent humans. It's like Animal Farm!

Not quite. Animal farm used animals as symbols of other people; they didn't rry to use the thinking process of an animal and transpose it to human morality.


Bullshit. Nearly every single CEO and world leader is a psychopath or sociopath. It's been that way for fucking millenia. Our system rewards psychopaths and sociopaths unless they break the law and get caught.

Sure, a lot of them are pretty shady. And sociopaths/psychopaths do get an advantage by not having those moral inhibitions. But as long as siad sociopath/psychopath is benefitting others more than he's hurting others, than he'll probably get by.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Then there is the whole thing of the lambs not actually getting together calling anything evil so there is no true parallel. About the closest you get is a fear response.

The main problem here is this: what do you guys think Nietzsche's take on the ubermensch being defined by money? All this other elitism stuff is great but not without the backdrop of what he finds to be the truth no matter how repugnant?

Its just self serving bullshit as its currently guised.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

What makes you say that? The whole Pre-Socratic/Dionysian tradition the Greeks had suggests the opposite (in the terms we're using here)



I never said it was "evil." I said we can criticize rape as an act of resentment.



I think Foucault said something like the work of the philosopher is to make facile gestures seem difficult. You're right that it's obvious. But the point being made here is that people espouse the opposite belief system - rather than recognizing the mentality of the powerful, the mentality devoid of resentment, people instead invent terms like evil and systems of morality which use these terms to castigate the powerful.



You saying that it's bullshit doesn't make it so. I explained why the rape example doesn't really fit here. I think you're point is turning into "you can't say that because there will always be someone more powerful." So what?

Heraclitus Pythagoras were contemporaries of the Bacchans and they did not agree with your assertion that there was no evil.

[vy65]

Animal farm used animals as symbols of other people; they didn't rry to use the thinking process of an animal and transpose it to human morality.

Nietzsche was doing the same thing.

His point was to criticize taking a human way of thinking (i.e. the predation) and ascribing it to nature. Violence exists in nature just as it exists in society. To view that violence as immoral is to resent life itself.

[vy65]

Heraclitus Pythagoras were contemporaries of the Bacchans and they did not agree with your assertion that there was no evil.

Pics or it didn't happen.

[greyforest]

But the red herring is to justify them by saying "well, we're all animals". I can understand a lion thinking "I'm hungry" and going out there and eating 5 people. The lion doesn't have rational thinking. He doesn't understand that those 5 people have families, and they're not coming back home.

We're light years away from raw animals. Trying to justify our choices by some link to the animal world is patently lame.

I'm not justifying the behavior, I'm merely explaining it.

Humans are only 10% human. The rest is all animal.

Morality is really really simple and easy, and everyone obfuscates it. As long as a person has the capacity for empathy, they will treat every person as if they were themselves.

Narcissists, psychopaths, and sociopaths literally lack this capability from a physical defect in their brain. This gives them an advantage in society, because when they rape someone, or extort money, or do anything immoral they have no capacity to feel shame or even acknowledge what they did was wrong.

Society tries to instill codes of ethics to prevent these people from fucking others over, but they always are around. These codes of ethics change over time dramatically, despite morality being very very simple.

Our society is much more racially integrated than 50 years ago, for example. Most people these days would agree that it's immoral to treat black people as sub-human, but 150 years ago? Exactly. Different code of ethics.

[LnGrrrR]

What makes you say that? The whole Pre-Socratic/Dionysian tradition the Greeks had suggests the opposite (in the terms we're using here)

Care to explain?


I never said it was "evil." I said we can criticize rape as an act of resentment.

Shifting goalposts here. What makes it an "act of resentment" instead of "might makes right"? Other than, of course, the fact that making it sound morally proper pretty much shoots a hole in your own foot.



I think Foucault said something like the work of the philosopher is to make facile gestures seem difficult. You're right that it's obvious. But the point being made here is that people espouse the opposite belief system - rather than recognizing the mentality of the powerful, the mentality devoid of resentment, people instead invent terms like evil and systems of morality which use these terms to castigate the powerful.

Disagree. I think people invent systems of morality in order to live together, and as society grows, the laws which govern morality grow as well.

What good would it do to "recognize the mentality of the powerful" if you're still getting eaten by them?

And I'm pretty sure that evil/morality wasn't invented in order to castigate the powerful. In fact, I'm pretty sure we castigated the powerful the first time one caveman realized another caveman had more meat than he did.


You saying that it's bullshit doesn't make it so. I explained why the rape example doesn't really fit here. I think you're point is turning into "you can't say that because there will always be someone more powerful." So what?

You made up some bullshit about the rape claim in order to justify it, you mean. "Oh, that rape thing doesn't count because it's not REALLY strength, it's weakness!" If you want to hairsplit, define what strength is and isn't then.

You were the one espousing "might makes right". If you're going to change that to "justified might makes right", then that's a different argument.

[Borat Sagyidev]

Why is it that these older types look at the younger generation and say things like


All this "lowered expectation" shit certainly gives me pause since part of my retirement plan has always been that when I got ready to downsize that my current house would sell for a shitload of money. If the generation behind us doesn't give a shit and care about "stuff" then who is going to buy it?


What a bunch of "poor me" douchebags. I guess the entrepreneurial spirit is dead. When an entire generation is waiting for someone else to hand them something, it doesn't bode well for the future of our republic.


Like this generation really needs to get involved in the BS investment scheme known as the housing market. Or Entrepreneurial spirit? You mean owning a business competeing with the 3rd world making plastic dog crap?

Yeah, that moves society forward, Owning a business. DR posted a good story, but why should be everyone's case? If we all owned businesses like that, this country would suck

[vy65]

Then there is the whole thing of the lambs not actually getting together calling anything evil so there is no true parallel. About the closest you get is a fear response.

The main problem here is this: what do you guys think Nietzsche's take on the ubermensch being defined by money? All this other elitism stuff is great but not without the backdrop of what he finds to be the truth no matter how repugnant?

Its just self serving bullshit as its currently guised.

They're plenty of other reasons why I'm better than you. Money is just one.

[Winehole23]

Maybe.You're a lawyer, right? Even if the distinction is "wrong," it remains legally enforceable.

And come on, you didn't chuckle a little?Nope. Perhaps you can point out the funny part.

[CosmicCowboy]

Why is it that these older types look at the younger generation and say things like






Like this generation really needs to get involved in the BS investment scheme known as the housing market. Or Entrepreneurial spirit? You mean owning a business competeing with the 3rd world making plastic dog crap?

Yeah, that moves society forward, Owning a business. DR posted a good story, but why should be everyone's case? If we all owned businesses like that, this country would suck

http://ocw.usu.edu/University_Extension/sheep-and-lambing-management/sheep.jpg

BaaaaaaaaaaD Raptors!!!

[ElNono]

I'm not justifying the behavior, I'm merely explaining it.

Humans are only 10% human. The rest is all animal.

Morality is really really simple and easy, and everyone obfuscates it. As long as a person has the capacity for empathy, they will treat every person as if they were themselves.

Narcissists, psychopaths, and sociopaths literally lack this capability from a physical defect in their brain. This gives them an advantage in society, because when they rape someone, or extort money, or do anything immoral they have no capacity to feel shame or even acknowledge what they did was wrong.

Society tries to instill codes of ethics to prevent these people from fucking others over, but they always are around. These codes of ethics change over time dramatically, despite morality being very very simple.

Our society is much more racially integrated than 50 years ago, for example. Most people these days would agree that it's immoral to treat black people as sub-human, but 150 years ago? Exactly. Different code of ethics.

But there's a huge difference. You're comparing humans to humans, not humans to non-humans.

A lion 50, 150, 300 years ago and today still does what it does without thinking rationally. It will very likely never think rationally, no matter how much time passes.

That humans evolved their rational thinking over years/decades/centuries is simply further proof how we're disconnected more and more from non-humans, and the animal 'instinct' or whatever you want to call it.

[vy65]

I didn't think we were talking about the legal system here.

There's no need to be crogedy all the time WH ...

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Pics or it didn't happen.

You are the one that said that the notion of evil did not exist in the presocratic world. It did as made very cear by all the bullshit rules that pythagoreans had.

They had a notion of the beautiful in shapes and considered distortions to be abhorrent.

Your premise was wrong and quite frankly we do not know very much about the Bacchans as they were the plebs and did not write very much however you could claim that there depiction of the titans as destroyers could be viewed as an evil entity.

[greyforest]

They're plenty of other reasons why I'm better than you. Money is just one.

Here's a great example of an idiotic principle strongly rooted in our society - more money = better than.

I could understand, maybe, if money actually represented how much you did for society, but it's not. Do you think Paris Hilton is better than you? She most certainly has more money than virtually everyone in this thread, so by your logic she is better than all of us.

[MannyIsGod]

I didn't think we were talking about the legal system here.

There's no need to be crogedy all the time WH ...

There is if life is a competition! :lol

[FuzzyLumpkins]

They're plenty of other reasons why I'm better than you. Money is just one.

You're butthurt. That is so cute. Ad hominem. If you are a lawyer then you know what it makes a knowledgeable judge think of your position.

The problem with Nietzsche is that he set out a order in which there were elites but at no point described how that power was to manifest itself. that was the whole point of will to power as that was how it was to manifest.

He went mad forwhatever reasons o quit flushing out his philosophy. However without that justification for being in said spot of power its hard to justify having it. He clearly wanted to within his framework and never could.

As such using him to justify being an asshole is pretty weak.

[Winehole23]

There's no need to be crogedy all the time WH ...Crotchety.

Just because you dislike the attention doesn't make me ill-natured or peevish. On the contrary, I'm in a great mood. :toast

[greyforest]

But there's a huge difference. You're comparing humans to humans, not humans to non-humans.

A lion 50, 150, 300 years ago and today still does what it does without thinking rationally. It will very likely never think rationally, no matter how much time passes.

That humans evolved their rational thinking over years/decades/centuries is simply further proof how we're disconnected more and more from non-humans, and the animal 'instinct' or whatever you want to call it.

Absolutely. I'm merely pointing out that the animalistic, predatory instincts are still with us (some more than others), despite the centuries-old striving to be "civilized". Obviously comparing humans and animals isn't apples-to-apples, but no one should ever discount just how much behavior we have in common.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Here's a great example of an idiotic principle strongly rooted in our society - more money = better than.

I could understand, maybe, if money actually represented how much you did for society, but it's not. Do you think Paris Hilton is better than you? She most certainly has more money than virtually everyone in this thread, so by your logic she is better than all of us.

What he needs to do is start listing his assests and I will tell him if he has more moeny than me. He is just lashing out like an angry little boy now.

[greyforest]

No, you missed my point. Neither of you have assets worth as much as Paris Hilton, so you both should feel ashamed you aren't as good as her.

[vy65]

Care to explain?

This is much more succinct than I could ever do:


The preface to Richard Wagner already proposed that art—and not morality—was the essential metaphysical human activity; in the book itself there appears many times over the suggestive statement that the existence of the world is justified only as an aesthetic phenomenon. In fact, the entire book recognizes only an artist’s sense and—a deeper meaning under everything that happens—a “God,” if you will, but certainly only a totally unthinking and amoral artist-God, who in creation as in destruction, in good things as in bad, desires to become aware of his own pleasures and autocratic power equally, a God who, as he creates worlds, rids himself of the distress of fullness and superfluity, of the suffering of pressing internal contradictions. The world is at every moment the attained redemption of God, as the eternally changing, eternally new vision of the one who suffers most, who is the most rent with contradictions, the most inconsistent, who knows how to save himself only in appearances. People may call this entire artistic metaphysics arbitrary, pointless, and fantastic—the essential point about it is that it already betrays a spirit which will at some point risk everything to stand against the moralistic interpretation and meaningfulness of existence. Here is announced, perhaps for the first time, a pessimism “beyond good and evil”; here is expressed in word and formula that “perversity in belief” against which Schopenhauer never grew tired of hurling his angriest curses and thunderbolts in advance—a philosophy which dares to place morality itself in the world of phenomena, to subsume it, not merely under the “visions” (in the sense of some idealistic terminus technicus [technical end point]) but under “illusions,” as an appearance, delusion, fallacy, interpretation, something made up, a work of art.* Perhaps we can best gauge the depth of this tendency hostile to morality from the careful and antagonistic silence with which Christianity is treated in the entire book— Christianity as the most excessively thorough elaboration of a moralistic theme which humanity up to this point has had available to listen to. To tell the truth, there is nothing which stands in greater opposition to the purely aesthetic interpretation and justification of the world, as it is taught in this book, than Christian doctrine, which is and wishes to be merely moralistic and which, with its absolute standards, beginning, for example, with its truthfulness of God, relegates art, every art, to the realm of lies—in other words, which denies art, condemns it, and passes sentence on it. Behind such a way of thinking and evaluating, which must be hostile to art, so long as it is in any way genuine, I always perceived also something hostile to life, the wrathful, vengeful aversion to life itself; for all life rests on appearance, art, illusion, optics, the need for perspective and for error. Christianity was from the start essentially and thoroughly life’s disgust and weariness with life, which only dressed itself up with, only hid itself in, only decorated itself with the belief in an “other” or “better” life. The hatred of the “world,” the curse against the emotions, the fear of beauty and sensuality, a world beyond created so that the world on this side might be more easily slandered, at bottom a longing for nothingness, for extinction, for rest, until the “Sabbath of all Sabbaths”—all that, as well as the absolute desire of Christianity to allow only moral values to count, has always seemed to me the most dangerous and the weirdest form of all possible manifestations of a “Will to Destruction,” at least a sign of the deepest illness, weariness, bad temper, exhaustion, and impoverishment in living—for in the eyes of morality (and particularly Christian morality, that is, absolute morality) life must be seen as constantly and inevitably wrong, because life is something essentially amoral—hence, pressed down under the weight of contempt and eternal No’s, life must finally be experienced as something not worth desiring, as something inherently worthless. And what about morality itself? Might not morality be a “desire for the denial of life,” a secret instinct for destruction, a principle of decay, diminution, slander, a beginning of the end? And thus, the danger of dangers? . . . And so, my instinct at that time turned itself against morality in this questionable book, as an instinct affirming life, and invented for itself a fundamentally different doctrine and a totally opposite way of evaluating life, something purely artistic and anti-Christian. What should it be called? As a philologist and man of words, I baptized it, taking some liberties— for who knew the correct name of the Antichrist?—after the name of a Greek god: I called it the Dionysian.—

http://records.viu.ca/~johnstoi/nietzsche/tragedy_all.htm


Shifting goalposts here. What makes it an "act of resentment" instead of "might makes right"? Other than, of course, the fact that making it sound morally proper pretty much shoots a hole in your own foot.

No goal posts were ever shifted. I'm engaging in a little amateur psychology here. A man rapes a woman principally to exert power over her. The act is animated by the man's own powerlessness - he rapes in order to exert something he doesn't have - power over the woman. It's a desperate act designed to hide the man's own impotence. Basically, rape occurs because a man resents a woman and also resents his own impotence. That's pretty bad in the Nietzschean world-view.


Disagree. I think people invent systems of morality in order to live together, and as society grows, the laws which govern morality grow as well.

What good would it do to "recognize the mentality of the powerful" if you're still getting eaten by them?

And I'm pretty sure that evil/morality wasn't invented in order to castigate the powerful. In fact, I'm pretty sure we castigated the powerful the first time one caveman realized another caveman had more meat than he did.

Part of this is dealt with in that huge block quote.

You might be right as to why morality arises in the first place. But that's not really what we're talking about.

The point to recognizing that mentality is to emulate it on your own terms - to become powerful yourself. If you're getting eaten, then you should do something about it.

As for the last bit, if you don't agree, you don't agree. But I think the caveman's reaction was to beat the shit out of the guy with more food and steal it - not sit around and call him evil.



You made up some bullshit about the rape claim in order to justify it, you mean. "Oh, that rape thing doesn't count because it's not REALLY strength, it's weakness!" If you want to hairsplit, define what strength is and isn't then.

You were the one espousing "might makes right". If you're going to change that to "justified might makes right", then that's a different argument.

This is answered above.

[ElNono]

Absolutely. I'm merely pointing out that the animalistic, predatory instincts are still with us (some more than others), despite the centuries-old striving to be "civilized". Obviously comparing humans and animals isn't apples-to-apples, but no one should ever discount just how much behavior we have in common.

I can understand being exceptions to the rule (or the exception being created by being intellectually lazy).

But the rule, by and large, is that we rationally choose to do what we do or don't do. Whereas it has everything to do with rational thinking, and little with instincts.

That rational thinking has evolved over time, has gotten sprinkled with different moral and idealistic angles, etc. is certainly not in dispute here.