View Full Version : Herman Cain on Abortion
JD-sBPBzpmE
Note the jaws dropping... :lol
baseline bum
10-23-2011, 06:49 PM
What in the fuck was that?
baseline bum
10-23-2011, 06:56 PM
Seriously, can one of you Cain crackers explain that?
elbamba
10-23-2011, 07:28 PM
I don't think his answer could have been clearer. He is against abortion. . .unless its the woman's choice. . . because at the end of life, government will decide if someone is dead. . .9 9 9.
boutons_deux
10-23-2011, 07:29 PM
yeah, lotsa articles about Cain't Even Clarify My Own Policies, eg, on abortion
Herman Cain scrambles to toe the pro-life line on abortion
But Repugs and tea baggers like their candidates blindly ideological (no matter what the consequences) and "stupid like us". :lol
But Repugs and tea baggers like their candidates blindly ideological (no matter what the consequences) and "stupid like us". :lol
Well... he certainly meets that second criterion. :rollin
Oh, Gee!!
10-23-2011, 08:45 PM
he wants to bring back coat hangers as a surgical tool. he likes his abortions where he likes his homesexual encounters: in a dark alley.
Halberto
10-23-2011, 09:39 PM
From what I got, I think he is pro-choice but disapproves of abortion... this raises an interesting point: the far right cries for less government yet has no problem dictating certain aspects in the lives of others. If I understand what Cain is trying to convey, he is actually eliminating that hypocrisy.
baseline bum
10-23-2011, 09:46 PM
From what I got, I think he is pro-choice but disapproves of abortion... this raises an interesting point: the far right cries for less government yet has no problem dictating certain aspects in the lives of others. If I understand what Cain is trying to convey, he is actually eliminating that hypocrisy.
I don't see that at all; he flat out said abortion should not be legal.
ElNono
10-23-2011, 09:59 PM
What's the abortion policy in SimCity?
Halberto
10-23-2011, 10:01 PM
But he says more than once he doesn't think it's the governments choice.
baseline bum
10-23-2011, 10:09 PM
But he says more than once he doesn't think it's the governments choice.
Which is what makes it confusing, since he also said multiple times plain as day that that abortion should not be legal. It points more to him throwing out mindless slogans with lots of conviction in his voice and hoping no one watching had their brains turned on. It's maybe the most ridiculous thing I have heard in a political race; even Quayle didn't embarrass himself that badly.
ducks
10-23-2011, 10:50 PM
I don't see that at all; he flat out said abortion should not be legal.
it should not be
it is a living baby but killing babies is ok according to way to many people
Bender
10-23-2011, 11:00 PM
What's the abortion policy in SimCity?
:lol
Oh, Gee!!
10-24-2011, 01:34 AM
What's the abortion policy in SimCity?
alt+delete?
DJ Mbenga
10-24-2011, 01:41 AM
confused his talking points. its im against abortion the end. the goverment not intervening is for the next question. didnt study his points to well i guess.
Oh, Gee!!
10-24-2011, 01:49 AM
Herman Cain expects that the gov't can and should do nothing about the abortion problem: the market will figure it out.
ElNono
10-24-2011, 01:55 AM
9-9-9 will fix it all, tbh... Eveybody will be filthy rich and will afford to have as many babies as they want (or not want)...
Wild Cobra
10-24-2011, 02:15 AM
Is everyone forgetting that abortion is not the only method? What about things like "The Morning After Pill." This could apply for rape. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this pill prevents the conception.
mingus
10-24-2011, 04:20 AM
From what I got, I think he is pro-choice but disapproves of abortion... this raises an interesting point: the far right cries for less government yet has no problem dictating certain aspects in the lives of others. If I understand what Cain is trying to convey, he is actually eliminating that hypocrisy.
it's not interesting point at all. people on the right see it as an act of murder, therefore it should be stopped. the less government part and this are apples and oranges.
i don't believe people have a right to arbitrarily set a timetable for when life begins. i don't know when life begins. nobody does. my view then is why allow something which i don't know the consequences of. i dont see that as being an extemist view at all. in fact i didn't know it was until i started paying attention to politics. but it's just one of those things the mainstream media tries to indoctrinate the people to believe. i think there are more pro-lifers than meets the eye, they just don't want to be shunned by their liberal circle
boutons_deux
10-24-2011, 04:38 AM
"The Morning After Pill."
TX Repugs have admitted that their vote to defund all TX family planning clinics is a war on contraception. Estimates are that there will be 20K unwanted pregnancies per year because of no more contraceptives from those clinics.
"my view then is why allow something which i don't know the consequences of."
like global warming, or invasions to grab natural resources?
"more pro-lifers than meets the eye, they just don't want to be shunned by their liberal circle"
bullshit. they would consider it a Badge of Honor.
mingus
10-24-2011, 05:35 AM
"The Morning After Pill."
TX Repugs have admitted that their vote to defund all TX family planning clinics is a war on contraception. Estimates are that there will be 20K unwanted pregnancies per year because of no more contraceptives from those clinics.
"my view then is why allow something which i don't know the consequences of."
like global warming, or invasions to grab natural resources?
"more pro-lifers than meets the eye, they just don't want to be shunned by their liberal circle"
bullshit. they would consider it a Badge of Honor.
i didn't agree with the Iraq war. but lets not act like Republicans were the only ones who wanted to invaded Iraq.
and i think GW is real. many Republicans think it's an important issue too. they just want to go about finding an answer for it differently (i.e. not blowing tax-payer money on failure ventures like Solyndra).
Warlord23
10-24-2011, 06:50 AM
:lol Herman Cain is trolling the shit out of the GOP base. He's either a real-life version of ducks (unintentionally hilarious troll) or Sequ (premeditated, transparent troll).
Either way, his campaign is just a long-ass publicity stunt aimed at securing book deals and speaking engagements.
admiralsnackbar
10-24-2011, 08:00 AM
Is everyone forgetting that abortion is not the only method? What about things like "The Morning After Pill." This could apply for rape. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this pill prevents the conception.
Hormonal contraceptives don't prevent conception, they help prevent ovulation and diminish the fertilized egg's ability to attach to the wall of the uterus.
In other words: you're wrong. :toast
MaNuMaNiAc
10-24-2011, 08:29 AM
Hormonal contraceptives don't prevent conception, they help prevent ovulation and diminish the fertilized egg's ability to attach to the wall of the uterus.
In other words: you're wrong. :toast
as per usual
DUNCANownsKOBE
10-24-2011, 08:37 AM
Is everyone forgetting that abortion is not the only method? What about things like "The Morning After Pill." This could apply for rape. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this pill prevents the conception.
:lol this is classic bible thumping bullshit. When a woman is raped, the first thing that pops into her head isn't, "Oh, I better go get the morning after pill!" Expecting a woman to remember to take the morning after pill after she's raped as the only way to prevent having a baby is cold hearted bullshit anyone who seriously believed in religion wouldn't want.
There is NO WAY from that video to understand what Herman Cain is saying his position, as president, on abortion would be.
Wait, I think I might get it - seriously.
Is he saying, "It is not the governments choice to decide WHAT is the proper circumstances for abortion - abortion should be illegal NO MATTER WHAT?"
Every time he is asked whether a woman could get an abortion is was with a caveat "In case of Rape" or "In case of incest" - and HIS point is - the govt. doesn't get to make exceptions; no one gets to make exceptions - it is ALWAYS wrong, and should ALWAYS be illegal; LIFE is sacred.
It is so odd to hear this (most intellectually honest of postions) that we don't recognize it when we see it.
If I'm wrong in my analysis; please point it out.
DUNCANownsKOBE
10-24-2011, 08:38 AM
it's not interesting point at all. people on the right see it as an act of murder, therefore it should be stopped. the less government part and this are apples and oranges.
i don't believe people have a right to arbitrarily set a timetable for when life begins. i don't know when life begins. nobody does. my view then is why allow something which i don't know the consequences of. i dont see that as being an extemist view at all. in fact i didn't know it was until i started paying attention to politics. but it's just one of those things the mainstream media tries to indoctrinate the people to believe. i think there are more pro-lifers than meets the eye, they just don't want to be shunned by their liberal circle
God you are such a fuckin embarrassment to Jews.
God you are such a fuckin embarrassment to Jews.
God you're a bigot.
admiralsnackbar
10-24-2011, 08:46 AM
:lol this is classic bible thumping bullshit. When a woman is raped, the first thing that pops into her head isn't, "Oh, I better go get the morning after pill!" Expecting a woman to remember to take the morning after pill after she's raped as the only way to prevent having a baby is cold hearted bullshit anyone who seriously believed in religion wouldn't want.
Compounded by the fact that the religious right has made it dreadfully difficult to get a hold of a morning-after pill.
DUNCANownsKOBE
10-24-2011, 08:51 AM
God you're a bigot.
I am Jewish and the reason I don't practice anymore is because of Jewish evangelicals like mingus.
He's probably a huge Joe Lieberkike fan.
DUNCANownsKOBE
10-24-2011, 08:52 AM
Compounded by the fact that the religious right has made it dreadfully difficult to get a hold of a morning-after pill.
True. WC acting like the religious right has always supported the morning after pill as a means of contraception is more bullshit.
boutons_deux
10-24-2011, 08:58 AM
"lets not act like Republicans were the only ones who wanted to invaded Iraq."
Let's not make the "false equivalence" mistake of blaming the Dems and Repugs for the Iraq war, when it was the Repugs who lied the country into Iraq. My bet is that had dubya lost 2000 like was his due, Gore would not have invaded Iraq.
DUNCANownsKOBE
10-24-2011, 09:01 AM
There is NO WAY from that video to understand what Herman Cain is saying his position, as president, on abortion would be.
Wait, I think I might get it - seriously.
Is he saying, "It is not the governments choice to decide WHAT is the proper circumstances for abortion - abortion should be illegal NO MATTER WHAT?"
Every time he is asked whether a woman could get an abortion is was with a caveat "In case of Rape" or "In case of incest" - and HIS point is - the govt. doesn't get to make exceptions; no one gets to make exceptions - it is ALWAYS wrong, and should ALWAYS be illegal; LIFE is sacred.
It is so odd to hear this (most intellectually honest of postions) that we don't recognize it when we see it.
If I'm wrong in my analysis; please point it out.
He specifically said it should be a woman's choice after she's raped which contradicts the entire pro-life belief system. To act like he didn't contradict himself is asinine.
I am Jewish and the reason I don't practice anymore is because of Jewish evangelicals like mingus.
He's probably a huge Joe Lieberkike fan.
Got it.
Probably makes you even more of a bigot, however.
DUNCANownsKOBE
10-24-2011, 09:03 AM
Got it.
Probably makes you even more of a bigot, however.
I'm OK with that.
Being a bigot is better than being someone who wants to restrict the rights of rape victims
He specifically said it should be a woman's choice after she's raped which contradicts the entire pro-life belief system. To act like he didn't contradict himself is asinine.
Thanks, didn't re-watch; was so convinced of my proper (wishful) interpretation.
You can re-read my post pre-epiphany (the first sentence only).
I'm OK with that.
Being a bigot is better than being someone who wants to restrict the rights of rape victims
Society restricts people of their rights all the time. I, for instance, am not allowed to kill my children - my right to do that is restricted.
As horrible as that analogy is at first blush, if one considers the life of the fetus as sacred human life; NO person has the "right" to end that life - regardless of how that life came to be.
But that's where I bail on this thread; abortion has been done on this board.
A lot.
admiralsnackbar
10-24-2011, 09:13 AM
Got it.
Probably makes you even more of a bigot, however.
As soon as a person has faith in a doctrine, that means they're accepting some species of dogma as self-evident. This means that in addition to accepting what it means to be a [x doctrine here], you necessarily also know what ISN'T [x doctrine]. Eye, meet log, etc.
hater
10-24-2011, 09:15 AM
yup this is why IMO the GOP is a big hypocritical party.
"We don't want goverment telling us what to do. Make abortion illegal."
admiralsnackbar
10-24-2011, 09:19 AM
yup this is why IMO the GOP is a big hypocritical party.
"We don't want goverment telling us what to do. Make abortion illegal."
That Southern strategy has made for some strange bedfellows, hasn't it?
yup this is why IMO the GOP is a big hypocritical party.
"We don't want goverment telling us what to do. Make abortion illegal."
Non-sequitor.
That is why Democrats are hypocritical, they claim to support the rights of the weak over the powerful, but then won't support the most fundamental right of the weakest among us - the unborn fetus; they allow their murder - even vehemently supporting people's RIGHT to murder them!
You see it's not about wanting govt. in or out of this debate; it's about what a person believes a fetus is; human life worth protecting, or, simply, potential human life. Again, if one believes it is Human life, then that person is compelled to protect that life. There is no common ground to be found - there is no compromise.
I understand that you don't believe that that is Human life, and I respect the fact that you want to protect a woman's right to do with her body what she wants - and that the government should not be involved. I get it. You will never consider a fetus a life worth protecting - I know. However, your condescending statement regarding people who hold an opposing view is not productive, and demonstrates a closed mind, when I'm sure you purport to be an "open minded liberal".
hater
10-24-2011, 09:41 AM
Non-sequitor.
That is why Democrats are hypocritical, they claim to support the rights of the weak over the powerful, but then won't support the most fundamental right of the weakest among us - the unborn fetus; they allow their murder - even vehemently supporting people's RIGHT to murder them!
You see it's not about wanting govt. in or out of this debate; it's about what a person believes a fetus is; human life worth protecting, or, simply, potential human life. Again, if one believes it is Human life, then that person is compelled to protect that life. There is no common ground to be found - there is no compromise.
I understand that you don't believe that that is Human life, and I respect the fact that you want to protect a woman's right to do with her body what she wants - and that the government should not be involved. I get it. You will never consider a fetus a life worth protecting - I know. However, your condescending statement regarding people who hold an opposing view is not productive, and demonstrates a closed mind, when I'm sure you purport to be an "open minded liberal".
is a fetus an american citizen under the constitution? Nope
link to a fetus rights under the constitution?
sorry. Abortion is a social issue. GOP forcing ppl is socialism at its finest. Thus my call of hypocrisy
is a fetus an american citizen under the constitution? Nope
link to a fetus rights under the constitution?
sorry. Abortion is a social issue. GOP forcing ppl is socialism at its finest. Thus my call of hypocrisy
Abortion being "Socialism"?
I am stopping here.
You really don't know what you are talking about, do you?
If you don't understand why I find that so ridiculous, and you so profoundly ignorant, look up definitions of ECONOMIC systems.
hater
10-24-2011, 09:56 AM
Try to keep up. If GOPers call Obamacare socialism, then by that logic making abortion illegal = socialism. yet they support it :lol
baseline bum
10-24-2011, 09:59 AM
What are we discussing abortion for? This thread is to make fun of the ridiculous crap the new GOP hope is spewing.
admiralsnackbar
10-24-2011, 10:07 AM
What are we discussing abortion for? This thread is to make fun of the ridiculous crap the new GOP hope is spewing.
BB, on point.
Soul_Patch
10-24-2011, 10:14 AM
Is everyone forgetting that abortion is not the only method? What about things like "The Morning After Pill." This could apply for rape. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this pill prevents the conception.
I think he specifically said that "life begins at conception"
So wouldn't the morning after, by definition, be after conception and an abortion?
mingus
10-24-2011, 10:52 AM
Non-sequitor.
That is why Democrats are hypocritical, they claim to support the rights of the weak over the powerful, but then won't support the most fundamental right of the weakest among us - the unborn fetus; they allow their murder - even vehemently supporting people's RIGHT to murder them!
You see it's not about wanting govt. in or out of this debate; it's about what a person believes a fetus is; human life worth protecting, or, simply, potential human life. Again, if one believes it is Human life, then that person is compelled to protect that life. There is no common ground to be found - there is no compromise.
I understand that you don't believe that that is Human life, and I respect the fact that you want to protect a woman's right to do with her body what she wants - and that the government should not be involved. I get it. You will never consider a fetus a life worth protecting - I know. However, your condescending statement regarding people who hold an opposing view is not productive, and demonstrates a closed mind, when I'm sure you purport to be an "open minded liberal".
certaintly isn't the first time a liberal has personally derided me for conservative position. that's what liberals do best though, they take it to a whole 'nother personal level. which somewhat speaks to one of my original points, which is that i believe there's more plurality on this issue among liberals than meets the eye. a lot of them just don't have the balls to say anything because of punks like Dok.
mingus
10-24-2011, 10:55 AM
I think he specifically said that "life begins at conception"
So wouldn't the morning after, by definition, be after conception and an abortion?
correct me if i'm wrong but conception is fertilization is it not? fertilization happens typically around 36 hours after intercourse. so there's plenty of time for a rape vicitm to get the morning after pill.
admiralsnackbar
10-24-2011, 10:59 AM
correct me if i'm wrong but conception is fertilization is it not? fertilization happens typically around 36 hours after intercourse. so there's plenty of time for a rape vicitm to get the morning after pill.
Unless the rape victim has been, say, tied to a bed for a week, or in a coma, or scared of what her parents would do if they found out, or, or or.
mingus
10-24-2011, 11:02 AM
"lets not act like Republicans were the only ones who wanted to invaded Iraq."
Let's not make the "false equivalence" mistake of blaming the Dems and Repugs for the Iraq war, when it was the Repugs who lied the country into Iraq. My bet is that had dubya lost 2000 like was his due, Gore would not have invaded Iraq.
the majority were in support of it. in other words, the were for invading Iraq. please stop fooling yourself into thinking it was purely the doing of Republicans. Obama used it on Hilary in '08 because he knew she was vulnerable because of it, too.
mingus
10-24-2011, 11:10 AM
Unless the rape victim has been, say, tied to a bed for a week, or in a coma, or scared of what her parents would do if they found out, or, or or.
or maybe she could just realize the life inside of her had absolutely nothing to do with what happened...
anyway, for victms of rape i never stated i was for keeping the baby. in those cases, i'd allow an abortion to happen for the simple fact that i think having a kid by a rapist would probably be emotionally traumitizing for the women. that and if the pregnancy poses health concerns for the mother. other than that, i don't agree with it.
"lets not act like Republicans were the only ones who wanted to invaded Iraq."
Let's not make the "false equivalence" mistake of blaming the Dems and Repugs for the Iraq war, when it was the Repugs who lied the country into Iraq. My bet is that had dubya lost 2000 like was his due, Gore would not have invaded Iraq.
Fine I'll give you Iraq; you give me the bailouts.
clambake
10-24-2011, 11:14 AM
Fine I'll give you Iraq; you give me the bailouts.
bush started the bailouts.
Agloco
10-24-2011, 11:17 AM
or maybe she could just realize the life inside of her had absolutely nothing to do with what happened...
anyway, for victms of rape i never stated i was for keeping the baby. in those cases, i'd allow an abortion to happen for the simple fact that i think having a kid by a rapist would probably be emotionally traumitizing for the women. that and if the pregnancy poses health concerns for the mother. other than that, i don't agree with it.
Or perhaps you could respect the choices made by others as it pertains to the course of their lives/wellbeings.
I'm not trying to come of as a jackass and I don't mean to sound harsh here, but that's what it boils down to.
admiralsnackbar
10-24-2011, 11:18 AM
or maybe she could just realize the life inside of her had absolutely nothing to do with what happened...
anyway, for victms of rape i never stated i was for keeping the baby. in those cases, i'd allow an abortion to happen for the simple fact that i think having a kid by a rapist would probably be emotionally traumitizing for the women. that and if the pregnancy poses health concerns for the mother. other than that, i don't agree with it.
Good for you. I don't agree with it either, but I don't have to carry it around for nine months, either -- it isn't for me to say IMO.
As for your first comment... sounds great on paper.
So did communism, swinging marriages, and any number of ideals felled by human emotion/weakness.
Blake
10-24-2011, 11:19 AM
Fine I'll give you Iraq; you give me the bailouts.
since when did opinions become like trading cards
ElNono
10-24-2011, 11:20 AM
tbh, it isn't just liberals that advocate "the murder of a defenseless person"... when the death penalty is carried out, does the guilty person has any chance to defend himself? Not really.
So to make things 'right' in that aspect too, I think it's time we have a "The Running Man" kind of TV show (Fox would probably be all over this), or a Roman Coliseum type of event where these death row people fight a lion with their bare hands for their lives or something to that extent.
I can already imagine Taco Bell sponsoring this kind of event.
bush started the bailouts.
We're playing revisionist history here.
"More" responsible means fully responsible. Republicans in the House were the ONLY group fighting the bailouts.
since when did opinions become like trading cards
When was my post, 18 minutes ago?
18 minutes ago.
ElNono
10-24-2011, 11:23 AM
"More" responsible means fully responsible. Republicans in the House were the ONLY group fighting the bailouts.
Factually speaking, there were more Republicans supporting the bailouts than against it. You can just check the roll call. We did this exercise not two months ago.
tbh, it isn't just liberals that advocate "the murder of a defenseless person"... when the death penalty is carried out, does the guilty person has any chance to defend himself? Not really.
So to make things 'right' in that aspect too, I think it's time we have a "The Running Man" kind of TV show (Fox would probably be all over this), or a Roman Coliseum type of event where these death row people fight a lion with their bare hands for their lives or something to that extent.
I can already imagine Taco Bell sponsoring this kind of event.
Would get great ratings, tbh.
Factually speaking, there were more Republicans supporting the bailouts than against it. You can just check the roll call. We did this exercise not two months ago.
I entered into a fight with Boutons; at his level. You people are making this WAY too difficult.
ElNono
10-24-2011, 11:26 AM
I entered into a fight with Boutons; at his level. You people are making this WAY too difficult.
Sorry, I'll just move back to my cave.
Blake
10-24-2011, 11:26 AM
When was my post, 18 minutes ago?
18 minutes ago.
k, just confirming that he really has no reason to give you anything.
ElNono
10-24-2011, 11:30 AM
Or perhaps you could respect the choices made by others as it pertains to the course of their lives/wellbeings.
I'm not trying to come of as a jackass and I don't mean to sound harsh here, but that's what it boils down to.
He doesn't need to respect shit, because it's very likely it isn't really his opinion. He's merely spreading the word from an imaginary being residing in his head.
Now this conversation should REALLY turn interesting :lol
Warlord23
10-24-2011, 11:37 AM
Greatest troll job ever ... tbqh this guy is a serious threat to occupy Bush Jr's proposed spot on Mount Rushmore:
I believe abortion should be clearly stated as illegal across this country.
What I’m saying is, it ultimately gets down to a choice that that family or that mother has to make. Not me as president. Not some politician. Not a bureaucrat. It gets down to that family.
No, people shouldn't be just free to abort.
I don't think government should make that decision (on whether there are any cases where abortion can be legal).
No, Abortion should not be legal. I believe in the sanctity of life.
That's her (rape victim's) choice. That's not government's choice.
I don't believe a woman should have an abortion ... even if she is raped or a victim of incest.
mingus
10-24-2011, 11:41 AM
If I found out God didn't exist tomorrow, I'd still be pro-life. And I'd still get called a Bible thumper.
ElNono
10-24-2011, 11:48 AM
If I found out God didn't exist tomorrow, I'd still be pro-life. And I'd still get called a Bible thumper.
If you found out tomorrow that a fetus isn't "alive" until some arbitrary time after fertilization (for example's sake, let call it 3 months), would you still be "pro-life"?
ElNono
10-24-2011, 11:52 AM
Ultimately what "right" we have to kill or not to kill varies, and abortion is hardly the only case. As I pointed out earlier, there's death row. Then there's killing under the war umbrella. Then killing in self-defense. Basically, what's justified "killing" is whatever as a society we make it to be.
baseline bum
10-24-2011, 11:56 AM
What if the fetus had oil though, Nono? Would it be worth killing then?
ElNono
10-24-2011, 12:00 PM
What if the fetus had oil though, Nono? Would it be worth killing then?
Or WMD? Could we launch a drone if we can't reach him?
Good questions all around, tbh.
DarkReign
10-24-2011, 12:11 PM
More reason for an amendment to the constitution that restricts "moral legislation" unless the activity deprives another person of something tangible (property, rights, money, employment, life, etc).
Which would force government to once and for all declare what stage of development qualifies as person-hood.
hater
10-24-2011, 12:15 PM
If I found out God didn't exist tomorrow, I'd still be pro-life. And I'd still get called a Bible thumper.
If I found out God did exist tomorrow, I'd still be pro-choice.
boutons_deux
10-24-2011, 12:20 PM
Anybody know what makes humans superior to all other earthly animals?
More reason for an amendment to the constitution that restricts "moral legislation" unless the activity deprives another person of something tangible (property, rights, money, employment, life, etc).
Which would force government to once and for all declare what stage of development qualifies as person-hood.
Would make all forms of govt. assistance illegal. They are the definition of legislated, coercive morality.
Anybody know what makes humans superior to all other earthly animals?
God.
boutons_deux
10-24-2011, 12:23 PM
bullshit
anybody else?
hitmanyr2k
10-24-2011, 12:23 PM
yup this is why IMO the GOP is a big hypocritical party.
"We don't want goverment telling us what to do. Make abortion illegal."
The hypocrisy comes from the right wing wanting to make abortion illegal but heaven forbid if a single parent needs a federal or state welfare program to provide financial help for raising that kid because we all know how Republicans love to bitch about social programs. Force the woman to have the kid but if she's a single mom that has to work with a deadbeat dad or has no family to help out she and that kid are basically on their own as far as most Republicans are concerned.
bullshit
anybody else?
OK then......oral.
Obviously.
mingus
10-24-2011, 12:47 PM
Ultimately what "right" we have to kill or not to kill varies, and abortion is hardly the only case. As I pointed out earlier, there's death row. Then there's killing under the war umbrella. Then killing in self-defense. Basically, what's justified "killing" is whatever as a society we make it to be.
I'm not for the death penalty.
Are you really comparing self-defense and decimating the Nazis to aborting a fetus?
admiralsnackbar
10-24-2011, 12:51 PM
I'm not for the death penalty.
Are you really comparing self-defense and decimating the Nazis to aborting a fetus?
Probably not, but given the death penalty has claimed thousands of innocent lives because legal systems are ever-fallible, he has an argument you aren't acknowledging.
Wild Cobra
10-24-2011, 12:58 PM
Hormonal contraceptives don't prevent conception, they help prevent ovulation and diminish the fertilized egg's ability to attach to the wall of the uterus.
In other words: you're wrong. :toast
An abortion does not occur until after the egg attaches itself to the wall of the uterus. If this never happens, it isn't an abortion.
mingus
10-24-2011, 12:59 PM
If I found out God did exist tomorrow, I'd still be pro-choice.
Good for you. I'm not going to buy into a system that dictates a woman is allowed abort her baby one day, but the following day not be allowed to have it aborted. It smells funny.
Wild Cobra
10-24-2011, 12:59 PM
I think he specifically said that "life begins at conception"
So wouldn't the morning after, by definition, be after conception and an abortion?
They are usually effective to about 3 or 4 days, the the longer one waits, the less effective they are. Still, it isn't technically an abortion if the egg never attaches to the uterus, which is how some of these work. There are different types of emergency contraceptives. So no, it isn't an abortion.
If Cain knows the difference of not? Cannot say. Not to give a person the benefit of doubt however is a rather biased or agenda driven way to be.
admiralsnackbar
10-24-2011, 01:01 PM
No.
Actually, yes.
admiralsnackbar
10-24-2011, 01:02 PM
An abortion does not occur until after the egg attaches itself to the wall of the uterus. If this never happens, it isn't an abortion.
But it is a conception. Tricky, the bitches.
mingus
10-24-2011, 01:02 PM
Probably not, but given the death penalty has claimed thousands of innocent lives because legal systems are ever-fallible, he has an argument you aren't acknowledging.
I completely acknowledge it. And I'm against the death penalty for much of the same reasons I'm against abortion: uncertainty.
admiralsnackbar
10-24-2011, 01:03 PM
I completely acknowledge it. And I'm against the death penalty for much of the same reasons I'm against abortion: uncertainty.
So you just threw a straw-man Nono's way for... kicks?
ElNono
10-24-2011, 01:05 PM
I'm not for the death penalty.
Are you really comparing self-defense and decimating the Nazis to aborting a fetus?
You didn't answer my previous question (fetus alive, etc)
And I'm comparing killing with killing. But thanks for making my point: you only oppose killing when it fits your opinion/view/ideology. Which was exactly my point.
ElNono
10-24-2011, 01:06 PM
The hypocrisy comes from the right wing wanting to make abortion illegal but heaven forbid if a single parent needs a federal or state welfare program to provide financial help for raising that kid because we all know how Republicans love to bitch about social programs. Force the woman to have the kid but if she's a single mom that has to work with a deadbeat dad or has no family to help out she and that kid are basically on their own as far as most Republicans are concerned.
Obviously this is when forcefully tied tubes becomes a wise option
ElNono
10-24-2011, 01:09 PM
Good for you. I'm not going to buy into a system that dictates a woman is allowed abort her baby one day, but the following day not be allowed to have it aborted. It smells funny.
But you already bought into that system.
It's the same system that told you that the Taliban are our friends, but the following day told you they're our enemies and we've to kill them.
mingus
10-24-2011, 01:10 PM
So you just threw a straw-man Nono's way for... kicks?
Not sure what your talking about. I addressed his point.
Wild Cobra
10-24-2011, 01:11 PM
But it is a conception. Tricky, the bitches.
Yes it is, and he never said keeping a conception from becoming a pregnancy should be illegal. Again, it's not an abortion until there is a pregnancy.
mingus
10-24-2011, 01:22 PM
You didn't answer my previous question (fetus alive, etc)
And I'm comparing killing with killing. But thanks for making my point: you only oppose killing when it fits your opinion/view/ideology. Which was exactly my point.
And my opinion/view/ideology is right.
admiralsnackbar
10-24-2011, 01:31 PM
Yes it is, and he never said keeping a conception from becoming a pregnancy should be illegal. Again, it's not an abortion until there is a pregnancy. It doesn't terribly matter what he said considering the OP's reason for posting the clip was to make light of Cain's completely contradictory/evasive position.
Is "life begins at conception" ambiguous? If an egg is fertilized and it is chemically induced to be purged, it is, under that definition of life, an "abortion," legal or otherwise.
Ask your wife, since you won't take it from me or your 7th-grade health teacher.
admiralsnackbar
10-24-2011, 01:35 PM
And my opinion/view/ideology is right.
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything."
ElNono
10-24-2011, 01:43 PM
And my opinion/view/ideology is right.
But you don't know that your opinion/view/ideology is right. You just think it is.
Which is why you keep dodging answering this question:
If you found out tomorrow that a fetus isn't "alive" until some arbitrary time after fertilization (for example's sake, let call it 3 months), would you still be "pro-life"?
The hypocrisy comes from the right wing wanting to make abortion illegal but heaven forbid if a single parent needs a federal or state welfare program to provide financial help for raising that kid because we all know how Republicans love to bitch about social programs. Force the woman to have the kid but if she's a single mom that has to work with a deadbeat dad or has no family to help out she and that kid are basically on their own as far as most Republicans are concerned.
It also hypocrisy to claim a pro-life position is "legislating morality", while supporting a welfare program which is also "legislative morality". Albeit with property confiscation thrown in for good measure to support that morality.
Wild Cobra
10-24-2011, 01:47 PM
It doesn't terribly matter what he said considering the OP's reason for posting the clip was to make light of Cain's completely contradictory/evasive position.
Is "life begins at conception" ambiguous? If an egg is fertilized and it is chemically induced to be purged, it is, under that definition of life, an "abortion," legal or otherwise.
Ask your wife, since you won't take it from me or your 7th-grade health teacher.
So you know what he meant, by your learned knowledge, but never meeting the man...
Have illusions of grandeur much?
ElNono
10-24-2011, 01:50 PM
So you know what he meant, by your learned knowledge, but never meeting the man...
Have illusions of grandeur much?
By stating that you think he doesn't know what the man said, you're also stating that you do know what the man said.
Have illusions of grandeur much?
ElNono
10-24-2011, 01:51 PM
It also hypocrisy to claim a pro-life position is "legislating morality", while supporting a welfare program which is also "legislative morality". Albeit with property confiscation thrown in for good measure to support that morality.
Obviously, the difference being that under a welfare program you can actually test if people require the welfare, whereas under abortion, you have no way to know (yet) if the fetus is "alive", or when that happens.
admiralsnackbar
10-24-2011, 01:53 PM
It also hypocrisy to claim a pro-life position is "legislating morality", while supporting a welfare program which is also "legislative morality". Albeit with property confiscation thrown in for good measure to support that morality.
That's one way of looking at it, I guess. By property confiscation I assume you mean taxes?
Isn't it possible that welfare isn't so much an altruistic moral position but a pragmatic investment in a stronger country in the same way public education is? If people can't go to school because they need to feed themselves, they aren't necessarily going to become captains of industry or even mediocre, semi-educated citizens. Obviously the gulf between the ideal and the reality is wide, but it doesn't strike me as a inescapably moral position.
ElNono
10-24-2011, 01:56 PM
I personally don't even see welfare as a moral proposition. I even think that if as a country we can't afford it, it should be reduced or go away until we can afford it again. Then again, I can only speak for myself here.
admiralsnackbar
10-24-2011, 01:59 PM
So you know what he meant, by your learned knowledge, but never meeting the man...
Have illusions of grandeur much?
Delusions, WC. And I don't doubt I suffer from them on this board sometimes. Even so, I don't know why being capable of following logic is proof of my delusion. It may be that Cain just mis-spoke over and over and over again, but based on what he said, LIFE BEGINS AT CONCEPTION, and that's a pretty definitive statement no matter how you try to grease it, chum.
Wild Cobra
10-24-2011, 02:00 PM
By stating that you think he doesn't know what the man said, you're also stating that you do know what the man said.
Have illusions of grandeur much?
I offered a plausible explanation. I even said:
If Cain knows the difference of not? Cannot say. Not to give a person the benefit of doubt however is a rather biased or agenda driven way to be.
Wild Cobra
10-24-2011, 02:04 PM
Delusions, WC. And I don't doubt I suffer from them on this board sometimes. Even so, I don't know why being capable of following logic is proof of my delusion. It may be that Cain just mis-spoke over and over and over again, but based on what he said, LIFE BEGINS AT CONCEPTION, and that's a pretty definitive statement no matter how you try to grease it, chum.
Yes, he may have misspoke, maybe he didn't. Even if he clarifies, will you believe him?
Saying he values life from conception is not the same as saying he wants to make it illegal to prevent a conception from becoming a pregnancy. He didn't say he would make his view on the conception concept law. He did say or indicate abortion should be illegal, and an abortion is after one becomes pregnant. Not before. Technically, even if he misspoke, he was not in conflict.
ElNono
10-24-2011, 02:18 PM
I offered a plausible explanation.
But you can qualify without a doubt what another person inferred from those comments?
Have illusions of grandeur much?
admiralsnackbar
10-24-2011, 02:39 PM
Yes, he may have misspoke, maybe he didn't. Even if he clarifies, will you believe him?
Not necessarily (he's a politician, isn't he?) but at least I'll be able to say I understand him; considering I don't really have a dog in the race besides spreading the gospel of reproductive education, I don't know why he deserves more/less.
I don't pretend to be psychic, meaning that the only way I can make sense of someone's positions is to listen to what they say. If what they say doesn't make sense, I don't see how it is rude or uncharitable to say so, any more than it seems respectful or generous to give someone a pass for no reason.
Technically, even if he misspoke, he was not in conflict.
If you say so.
baseline bum
10-24-2011, 03:38 PM
Anybody know what makes humans superior to all other earthly animals?
A combination of the language instinct and our ability to be active for long periods is what made us such a successful species.
clambake
10-24-2011, 03:49 PM
A combination of the language instinct and our ability to be active for long periods is what made us such a successful species.
i thought it was tim tebow.
boutons_deux
10-24-2011, 03:55 PM
why haven't "Christians" freaked about the 1000s, 100,000s? "human beings" down the drain by fertility. clinics?
boutons_deux
10-24-2011, 03:56 PM
A combination of the language instinct and our ability to be active for long periods is what made us such a successful species.
really bad effort, way too superficial.
anybody else?
baseline bum
10-24-2011, 03:59 PM
really bad effort, way too superficial.
anybody else?
Are you fucking kidding me, jackoff? The ability to understand and communicate complex ideas is the defining trait of humanity.
LnGrrrR
10-24-2011, 04:05 PM
Not to give a person the benefit of doubt however is a rather biased or agenda driven way to be.
This coming from WC is priceless.
Winehole23
10-24-2011, 04:11 PM
slightly off topic:
http://swampland.time.com/2011/10/24/the-mystery-of-the-missing-presidential-campaign-cain-operation-mia-in-key-states/
ploto
10-24-2011, 04:32 PM
Is he saying, "It is not the governments choice to decide WHAT is the proper circumstances for abortion - abortion should be illegal NO MATTER WHAT?"
For one part that seems to be his stance. When he is asked about certain exceptions, he seems to be saying that it (making exceptions) is not the government's place. It appears he opposes all abortions. But he also says in another part- it's the woman's choice- which throws it all out the window.
ploto
10-24-2011, 04:36 PM
Is everyone forgetting that abortion is not the only method? What about things like "The Morning After Pill." This could apply for rape. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this pill prevents the conception.
If you believe life begins at conception, the morning-after pill can then be considered an abortion when it prevents implantation of the fertilized egg.
Warlord23
10-24-2011, 05:15 PM
People need to get back on topic ... this isn't about abortion itself, it's about the superior brain of Herman Cain that allows him to defend two opposing positions at the same time.
Our Constitution guarantees a subdivision of church and state
Yes. They have a right to do that (ban the mosque). That’s not discriminating based upon religion
CuckingFunt
10-24-2011, 05:37 PM
that's what liberals do best though, they take it to a whole 'nother personal level.
Lulz.
hitmanyr2k
10-24-2011, 05:58 PM
That's one way of looking at it, I guess. By property confiscation I assume you mean taxes?
Isn't it possible that welfare isn't so much an altruistic moral position but a pragmatic investment in a stronger country in the same way public education is? If people can't go to school because they need to feed themselves, they aren't necessarily going to become captains of industry or even mediocre, semi-educated citizens. Obviously the gulf between the ideal and the reality is wide, but it doesn't strike me as a inescapably moral position.
Well, that's the gist of it. Most Republicans hate any kind of governement assistance (until they need it) but would love for anti-abortion laws to kick in. So take away abortion rights and what do you get? You sure as hell don't get more taxpayers in this country. You get more kids, more people in need of money to take care of those kids which means more people in poverty which means more bitching from Republicans about more people being in poverty and getting government assistance. Like I said before, the right wing would love to force the woman to have the kid but if that new mother doesn't have a good support system she and that kid are on their own as far as they're concerned.
baseline bum
10-24-2011, 06:18 PM
Well, that's the gist of it. Most Republicans hate any kind of governement assistance (until they need it) but would love for anti-abortion laws to kick in. So take away abortion rights and what do you get? You sure as hell don't get more taxpayers in this country. You get more kids, more people in need of money to take care of those kids which means more people in poverty which means more bitching from Republicans about more people being in poverty and getting government assistance. Like I said before, the right wing would love to force the woman to have the kid but if that new mother doesn't have a good support system she and that kid are on their own as far as they're concerned.
But the kid is useful to send off to die at war when he's 18.
admiralsnackbar
10-24-2011, 06:35 PM
But the kid is useful to send off to die at war when he's 18.
And a demoralized, hopeless % will be good for tithing and/or turning this country into a theocracy.
PS: 101 -- I've noticed you get understandably defensive when people attack Evangelical Christians, so for the record, understand this isn't directed at your peeps as much as it is towards the predatory, fascist branch of your denominational tree.
mingus
10-24-2011, 07:51 PM
But you don't know that your opinion/view/ideology is right. You just think it is.
Which is why you keep dodging answering this question:
i haven't dodged the question. if you read my previous posts you'd find out my rationale that relates to the question you asked.
ElNono
10-24-2011, 08:07 PM
i haven't dodged the question. if you read my previous posts you'd find out my rationale that relates to the question you asked.
I would gather that the answer is "No"?
mingus
10-24-2011, 08:11 PM
i've given my rationale for my position on it already.
boutons_deux
10-24-2011, 08:17 PM
Are you fucking kidding me, jackoff? The ability to understand and communicate complex ideas is the defining trait of humanity.
other large mammals have quite complex communications (and very probably "understanding").
What makes us human is our brain and nervous system.
If the brain isn't developed to a certain level in fetus, it's sub-human.
Cry Havoc
10-24-2011, 08:33 PM
other large mammals have quite complex communications (and very probably "understanding").
What makes us human is our brain and nervous system.
So wait, other species have complex communications, but they don't have brains or nervous systems? :dizzy
baseline bum
10-24-2011, 08:46 PM
You can't divorce the human brain and the language instinct; the language instinct is precisely what makes the human brain so different. If other animals had the universal grammar they'd have the capacity for abstract thinking, but as far as I know it has never been demonstrated in anything but a couple of isolated cases with dogs.
ElNono
10-24-2011, 08:58 PM
i've given my rationale for my position on it already.
I was asking for an answer to the question. I wouldn't want to guess wrong.
Strangest things have happened in this forum.
ElNono
10-24-2011, 09:00 PM
UCA! VRWC!!!! GFY!! UCA! UCA! UCA!
You can't divorce the human brain and the language instinct; the language instinct is precisely what makes the human brain so different. If other animals had the universal grammar they'd have the capacity for abstract thinking, but as far as I know it has never been demonstrated in anything but a couple of isolated cases with dogs.
I guess in some rare cases you can actually divorce them...
:lol
baseline bum
10-24-2011, 09:23 PM
^ :lol
FuzzyLumpkins
10-24-2011, 09:35 PM
They need to ask better questions or he will just dodge like that.
"Would any particular stance on abortion be a criteria for your nomination on a supreme court justice?"
admiralsnackbar
10-24-2011, 09:48 PM
other large mammals have quite complex communications (and very probably "understanding").
What makes us human is our brain and nervous system.
If the brain isn't developed to a certain level in fetus, it's sub-human.
Boutons hath spoken and law hath been wrought!
If it were only so easy :lol
Agloco
10-24-2011, 11:24 PM
He doesn't need to respect shit, because it's very likely it isn't really his opinion. He's merely spreading the word from an imaginary being residing in his head.
Now this conversation should REALLY turn interesting :lol
The voices probably confused Hermann as well.
LOL 9-9-9 (nein, nein, nein) to Abortion.
He's straddling the fence. He's responding as if they are asking for his beliefs, not for how he would govern. If you cannot govern based on your beliefs, what are you but a puppet?
He's worthless.
admiralsnackbar
10-25-2011, 01:11 AM
LOL 9-9-9 (nein, nein, nein) to Abortion.
:lol
That's one way of looking at it, I guess. By property confiscation I assume you mean taxes?
Isn't it possible that welfare isn't so much an altruistic moral position but a pragmatic investment in a stronger country in the same way public education is? If people can't go to school because they need to feed themselves, they aren't necessarily going to become captains of industry or even mediocre, semi-educated citizens. Obviously the gulf between the ideal and the reality is wide, but it doesn't strike me as a inescapably moral position.
Sure, it COULD be, but that is 1) not how it is sold and (2) testable; and I have a strong feeling we would find that the welfare state, in fact, discourages and reduces productivity in society as a whole, and, even further (3) has particularly, presumably unintentional, measurable, immoral results (look at illegitimacy rates since "The Great Society" began).
Winehole23
10-25-2011, 09:11 AM
illegitimacy rates since "The Great Society"1970, 1975, 1980-2008 (http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr59/nvsr59_01.pdf)
JoeChalupa
10-25-2011, 09:16 AM
I'm pro-life, pro-choice.
1970, 1975, 1980-2008 (http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr59/nvsr59_01.pdf)
Thanks.
I'm pro-life, pro-choice.
I'm pretty sure Cain's your man.
JoeChalupa
10-25-2011, 09:39 AM
I'm pretty sure Cain's your man.
Nope, not even close.
admiralsnackbar
10-25-2011, 09:58 AM
Sure, it COULD be, but that is 1) not how it is sold and (2) testable; and I have a strong feeling we would find that the welfare state, in fact, discourages and reduces productivity in society as a whole, and, even further (3) has particularly, presumably unintentional, measurable, immoral results (look at illegitimacy rates since "The Great Society" began).
How things are sold and why they are sold are entirely different things. There's a reason we use propaganda at wartime, and sell lottery tickets with pictures of dumpsterfulls of cash -- the reality isn't nearly so compelling. But anyway, if "testable" is your condition for having this conversation, then I recommend we both bow out :toast
How things are sold and why they are sold are entirely different things. There's a reason we use propaganda at wartime, and sell lottery tickets with pictures of dumpsterfulls of cash -- the reality isn't nearly so compelling. But anyway, if "testable" is your condition for having this conversation, then I recommend we both bow out :toast
"Testable" wasn't really the point - just a means of explanation. The primary point is that welfare programs, by and large, are sold on their moral grounds; appeal to people's humanity, of doing what is right for their fellow citizen. "I don't want to live in a country where we allow the weakest among us to go hungry", or the like, is something we have all heard politicians say....if we don't pass the jobs bill, there will be more Rapes and Murders - another example (although cold also work on the other side of the ledger, tbh).
But no need to digress further; I simply find it odd that people argue about legislating about certain forms of morality; when legislating based on morality is, frankly, both self-evident and ubiquitous.
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