USDA: food stamp use reaches record 45.8 million

[Winehole23]

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-11-01/u-s-food-stamp-use-reaches-record-45-8-million-usda-says.html

[CosmicCowboy]

o64Fz-KW1Dk

NzspsovNvII&

[Winehole23]

Axe to grind?

[Blake]

Axe to grind?

he's mad because they get use their cards to get slurpees.

[Winehole23]

They?

[CosmicCowboy]

Why attack the messenger? The "do nothing" culture is laughing their ass off at us for being stupid.

[Winehole23]

Watching these vids it'd hardly occur to you that whites are the majority of participants, or that the program serves needy children, disabled and elderly people.

[Capt Bringdown]

Gram Parsons he is not.

[Winehole23]

Very cynical framing, CC.

[CosmicCowboy]

Watching these vids it'd hardly occur to you that whites are the majority of participants, or that the program serves needy children, disabled and elderly people.

C'mon WH. I know the programs do some good for the truly needy.

You know there is a lot of fraud and waste.

Can't we at least agree on that?

The videos were posted for satirical comic relief.

[Winehole23]

You know there is a lot of fraud and waste.

Can't we at least agree on that?I know there's got to be some.

The videos were posted for satirical comic relief.They're not funny.

[CosmicCowboy]

The artists certainly meant them to be funny. You didn't get the humor?

[boutons_deux]

"You know there is a lot of fraud and waste."

You mean in the DoD? in the Repugs' two wars? Not very upset about that, are you?

Nor are you worried about docs, clinics, hospitals defrauding medicare and medicaid of many $10Bs/year.

but some people cheating on foodstamps?

SHOCKED, VINDICTIVE, PUNITIVE OUTRAGE!!!

Nothing but a replay of wealthy St Ronnie's LIE of Welfare Queens in Cadillacs.

[Winehole23]

No, I didn't. What's the funny part?

[CosmicCowboy]

They are poking fun at us for giving them free shit...

"All you gotta do is FUCK!"

[Winehole23]

They?

[Winehole23]

Us?

[DarrinS]

Watching these vids it'd hardly occur to you that whites are the majority of participants, or that the program serves needy children, disabled and elderly people.


No one said anything about race until this post.

[DarrinS]

They?

What?

[DarrinS]

How?

[Winehole23]

No one said anything about race until this post.Not bringing it up would be disingenuous. I tend to doubt CC meant to shed a sober light on fraud and waste.

[Winehole23]

Seems like he more meant to belittle food stamps and its clientele, at a time when Americans are financially and materially less secure than they've been since the 1930's.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Nice Vinnie Babarino impression.

[Winehole23]

Millions of Americans who can't put food on table enroll for food stamps, and CC would have us believe they're mostly black folks who cheat us and laugh.

[velik_m]

Food an water should be free for everyone.

[Winehole23]

No one said so.

[Winehole23]

Is that your take?

[CosmicCowboy]

Millions of Americans can't put food on table enroll for food stamps, and CC would have us believe they're mostly black folks who cheat us and laugh.

Get off your high horse winehole and quit alleging substance in my posts that I didn't put there myself.

[Winehole23]

You posted the vids.

[CosmicCowboy]

You posted the vids.

without editorial content.

[Winehole23]

That was your reaction to the news that record numbers of Americans use food stamps. It was revealing.

[Winehole23]

lol hiding behind your own post, and pretending to be not responsible for it because you didn't say anything.

[CosmicCowboy]

lol at you making broad totally baseless assumptions.

[clambake]

pretty adolescent...even for cc.

[Winehole23]

lol at you making broad totally baseless assumptions.I had more to go on than you did (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5458075&postcount=88).

[velik_m]

No one said so.

I did. I wasn't being sarcastic. I was being serious.

[Winehole23]

^^^appreciate the clarification. It can be hard to tell who's being facetious and who's being sincere sometimes.

[DMX7]

Why attack the messenger? The "do nothing" culture is laughing their ass off at us for being stupid.

Of course some people are going to abuse it. Doesn't mean we have to throw the millions of people who are legimitately using it under the bus.

[CosmicCowboy]

Of course some people are going to abuse it. Doesn't mean we have to throw the millions of people who are legimitately using it under the bus.

Who was advocating throwing the millions of truly needy under the bus?

[Drachen]

I will say that I do think that the amount awarded for food stamps is far too high. I have a friend who was on food stamps, single guy, and he got 252 a month. What single person needs that much money for groceries every month? Crazy. My wife spent a short time on food stamps when she lost her job about a month after we started dating. She has a kid. For the two of them she was given over 400 dollars. WTF!

[Winehole23]

Who was advocating throwing the millions of truly needy under the bus?Seems like you were trying to discredit the public program serving them. If you weren't, just say so.

[CosmicCowboy]

Seems like you were trying to discredit the public program serving them. If you weren't, just say so.

Like I said, making broad, baseless assumptions.

[DMX7]

Who was advocating throwing the millions of truly needy under the bus?

Well... that certainly seems like the implication of your mockery.

[MannyIsGod]

I will say that I do think that the amount awarded for food stamps is far too high. I have a friend who was on food stamps, single guy, and he got 252 a month. What single person needs that much money for groceries every month? Crazy. My wife spent a short time on food stamps when she lost her job about a month after we started dating. She has a kid. For the two of them she was given over 400 dollars. WTF!

252 for groceries works out to 64 dollars a week or under 10 dollars a day for groceries. You really think that's outlandish?

[CosmicCowboy]

Well... that certainly seems like the implication of your mockery.

I expect baseless, irrational, stereotypical, stupid assumptions from you, but normally not from Winehole.

[DMX7]

I expect baseless, irrational, stereotypical, stupid assumptions from you, but normally not from Winehole.

lolz. I see. I'm not up to your usual high standards of discourse, huh?

[Winehole23]

Like I said, making broad, baseless assumptions.If you didn't mean to discredit food stamps and food stamp users, just say so.

[Drachen]

252 for groceries works out to 64 dollars a week or under 10 dollars a day for groceries. You really think that's outlandish?

Yes. I feed a family of four (well) for 350 a month. We only have steak every several weeks, but we eat better than we need to. My friend routinely had half (or more) of his monthly allotment left.

[clambake]

i spend that on herbs and spices alone.

[MannyIsGod]

Yes. I feed a family of four (well) for 350 a month. We only have steak every several weeks, but we eat better than we need to. My friend routinely had half (or more) of his monthly allotment left.

I don't buy expensive groceries, but I spend 50-60 a week easily. And thats without any fresh produce and does not cover every meal by any means. One thing that you probably don't take into consideration is how much cheaper groceries are in San Antonio. In NM, groceries are so much more expensive its not even funny. I thought it might be a Santa Fe thing since that is a fairly expensive place to live but even in Albuquerque its still very pricey.

[clambake]

they have produce in san antonio?

you couldn't tell by looking.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

You think grocery prices are high now? Just wait til spring/summer.

[CosmicCowboy]

If you didn't mean to discredit food stamps and food stamp users, just say so.

I agree that some people under some circumstances need governmental assistance. As a program, the food cards are probably better than some of the other programs.

I honestly don't know what the answer is in weeding out the wheat from the chaff.

I am routinely laughed at in here for using the slurpee example but it is painfully true.

There is a Section 8 apartment building next to the Valero near my office that I patronize. I routinely stand in line there as healthy 20 somethings,male and female and usually dragging along a kid or two hit the counter with their chips, hot dogs, candy, big reds and slurpees and swipe the Lone Star card. They are usually buying beer and cigarettes at the same time (with cash) so each one makes two transactions. It is not unusual for this to happen 5 or 6 times in a row.

The problem as I see it, is that the government benefit route (housing, food support, child support, medical support, etc.) has become a legitimate lifestyle choice for the underclass, thus perpetuating it generation after generation.

[Winehole23]

That's much better. Using words is way more conducive to real discussion than snarky youtubes.

[clambake]

there is serious coin to be made in section 8 housing.

[boutons_deux]

"healthy 20 somethings,male and female and usually dragging along a kid or two hit the counter with their chips, hot dogs, candy, big reds and slurpees and swipe the Lone Star card."

White and brown people, with jobs and money, in San Antonio "nourish" themselves with the same food-like garbage, and it shows in their excess weight.

Do you expect poor people to have more brains and scruples about what they eat?

I don't doubt your observations, and I'm sure they give you gloat-loads of pleasure and orgasms of righteous indignation.

[Winehole23]

I routinely stand in line there as healthy 20 somethings,male and female and usually dragging along a kid or two hit the counter with their chips, hot dogs, candy, big reds and slurpees and swipe the Lone Star card.What's wrong with buying your kids chips, hot dogs, candy, big reds and slurpees?

[Winehole23]

These are all food items are they not?

[clambake]

What's wrong with buying your kids chips, hot dogs, candy, big reds and slurpees?

they're in front of him?

[Winehole23]

@CC:

Do you think the government should be telling parents what kind of food to buy and not to buy?

[CosmicCowboy]

What's wrong with buying your kids chips, hot dogs, candy, big reds and slurpees?

What part of the government "providing a legitimate lifestyle choice" didn't you get?

[clambake]

is a slurpee a luxury?

[Drachen]

I don't buy expensive groceries, but I spend 50-60 a week easily. And thats without any fresh produce and does not cover every meal by any means. One thing that you probably don't take into consideration is how much cheaper groceries are in San Antonio. In NM, groceries are so much more expensive its not even funny. I thought it might be a Santa Fe thing since that is a fairly expensive place to live but even in Albuquerque its still very pricey.

I don't have to take that into account since it is already done.

[MannyIsGod]

I don't have to take that into account since it is already done.

Huh?

[Winehole23]

What part of the government "providing a legitimate lifestyle choice" didn't you get?Maybe you could flesh that out a bit. I don't see where you're going with this.

Is buying slurpees and hot dogs for your kids an illegitimate lifestyle choice? if so, how so?

[SA210]

I say it's not enough

[Blake]

What part of the government "providing a legitimate lifestyle choice" didn't you get?

foods on CC's legitimate lifestyle list must not contain sugar, calories or fat.

[Drachen]

Huh?

A New Mexican gets a different amount than a Texan in the same situation. I am not being combatitive, but I find it a little strange (and superflous) to introduce cost of living into the conversation.

[Drachen]

Maybe you could flesh that out a bit. I don't see where you're going with this.

Is buying slurpees and hot dogs for your kids an illegitimate lifestyle choice? if so, how so?

I haven't spent a lot of time reading CCs posts OUTSIDE of this thread on this topic (or at least cataloguing them in my mind to bring back up), but when talking about the lifestyle choice, I think he was talking about the whole package of living totally off of government assistance, and only using the slurpees with the kids to point this out. Now, it is obvious that he is irked by their ability to purchase junk food with food stamps (otherwise why specify what they are purchasing), but I think that attacking that specific point is missing the forest for the trees.

Oh and WH, I agree with your assessment of why he posted the videos in the OP.

[CosmicCowboy]

Maybe you could flesh that out a bit. I don't see where you're going with this.

Is buying slurpees and hot dogs for your kids an illegitimate lifestyle choice? if so, how so?

I don't know the all the answers but I know the way we are doing it is not working.

Like I have said, my office is right next to an urban high school, next to a salvation army dorm, and in a what would normally be considered an underclass neighborhood so I see painful examples every day. I've been there 30 years.

I see 16 year old pregnant girls pushing strollers with their 2 year olds to the SAISD daycare at their high school. I see the same girls walk back by my office 15 minutes later skipping school with their "crew" to go smoke dope over under the freeway.

I see these kids growing up in a culture where getting an education is dismissed as something for the uncool losers to do.

I see government providing such an extensive safety net that living life "off the books" and utilizing the myriad of programs available is perceived as a viable lifestyle choice to staying in class, graduating, and pursuing an "on the books" job and trying to live a responsible lifestyle. At that age being irresponsible is a hell of a lot more fun. I see these same kids grow up "in the hood" and becoming disfunctional adults just hanging around on door steps, drinking 40's smoking dope, and waiting for their next check to be deposited.

Like I said, I don't know what the answer is, but I sure know what isn't working.

[Winehole23]

What does any of that have to do with record enrollment in food stamps?

[Winehole23]

Leads to dope smoking, teen pregnancy and hi-skool dropouts?

[boutons_deux]

Expect to see a lot more HS girls pregnant and pushing strollers, because the TX Repugs have shutdown family planning centers that were providing free contraceptives, and I guess condoms.

[Winehole23]

Food stamps convinced kids school is uncool?

[CosmicCowboy]

Oh, fuck you Winehole.

I try to have a serious conversation about a serious issue and you just want to try and be cute. Piss off.

[4>0rings]

CC is only cool with government subsudies that give free motorized carts, not with government programs that feed the needy and their children.

[CosmicCowboy]

CC is only cool with government subsudies that give free motorized carts, not with government programs that feed the needy and their children.

And a resounding "Fuck you!' to you too.

I've paid my million plus in taxes.

[CosmicCowboy]

If you pricks are cool with accepting a system of "no questions asked" safety nets that guarantee a permanent and exponentially expanding underclass then there is nothing to discuss here.

[Winehole23]

I can see the argument about a cycle of dependency, but singling out food stamps seems like tunnel vision. And singling them out with unemployment and food insecurity at generational highs is cynical in the extreme.

[Blake]

I've paid my million plus in taxes.

then you've definitely earned a subsidized golf cart.

[clambake]

lol

[Winehole23]

Oh, fuck you Winehole.

I try to have a serious conversation about a serious issue and you just want to try and be cute. Piss off.You're off topic, and dodging. I asked you how any of that was relevant to record enrollment for food stamps. You have no answer for that so far. No one is fooled.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Acting as if teen pregnancy and pot smoking is only a poor urban thing really doesn't have to do witht eh discussion at hand.

BTW, who is the arbiter of 'legitimate' lifestyles?

[CosmicCowboy]

Acting as if teen pregnancy and pot smoking is only a poor urban thing really doesn't have to do witht eh discussion at hand.

BTW, who is the arbiter of 'legitimate' lifestyles?

Do you consider an intentionally chosen cradle to grave life of government dependence to be a legitimate lifestyle choice?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

If you pricks are cool with accepting a system of "no questions asked" safety nets that guarantee a permanent and exponentially expanding underclass then there is nothing to discuss here.

This was the same chant back in the 90s with the welfare reform of Clinton/Gramm. Those changes were enacted and exacerbated the problem. The proof is in the pudding.

Your welfare state fearmongering wasn't cute back then either nor was the business deregulation.

[Winehole23]

If you pricks are cool with accepting a system of "no questions asked" safety net....Food stamps is not a no questions asked program. I know a number of people who've tried, and failed, to get them.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Do you consider an intentionally chosen cradle to grave life of government dependence to be a legitimate lifestyle choice?

i would not choose myself to that arbiter any more than i would choose you. You are avoiding the question. And that is the same red herring bullshit lie the baby boomer elites fed us back in the 1990s.

[Winehole23]

Do you consider an intentionally chosen cradle to grave life of government dependence to be a legitimate lifestyle choice?Is that the typical lifestyle of food stamp users?

[Drachen]

Also, the "I've paid a million in taxes" is a bullshit argument for anything unless you are arguing that you are far more fortunate than most people as evidenced by the fact that you have made SO much money, that you have paid 1M in taxes. Seems a little indirect, but it works.

[CosmicCowboy]

Food stamps is not a no questions asked program. I know a number of people who've tried, and failed, to get them.

The only reason to get turned down is that they have too much "on the books" verifiable income. The question that DOESN'T get asked is WHY doesn't this person have any verifiable income?

The same Valero these people are slapping the Lone Star Card down at ALWAYS has a help wanted sign in the window and employment apps behind the counter.

[Winehole23]

Rather than continue to take flak for the childish and simple-minded vids he posted, or his rambling, semi-coherent rant about public dependency, CC wants to talk about something else, anything else but the fact that nearly one in six Americans needs public relief in order to eat.

[clambake]

The only reason to get turned down is that they have too much "on the books" verifiable income. The question that DOESN'T get asked is WHY doesn't this person have any verifiable income?

The same Valero these people are slapping the Lone Star Card down at ALWAYS has a help wanted sign in the window and employment apps behind the counter.

would 16 year old, pregnant teenagers qualify for that position?

[CosmicCowboy]

i would not choose myself to that arbiter any more than i would choose you.

:lmao

Talk about avoiding the question...

[CosmicCowboy]

would 16 year old, pregnant teenagers qualify for that position?

Yes.

Next?

[jag]

Food an water should be free for everyone.


I did. I wasn't being sarcastic. I was being serious.

Food and water should be provided to people who are unable to work for them. To those who simply choose not to work, those things should not be provided. Doing so would only encourage more people to follow a similar path.

I realize this is a very basic viewpoint, but how exactly can any hardworking person turn a blind eye to the amount of waste and laziness that's fostered by this program?

[Winehole23]

These people? They're your countrymen, CC. Fellow citizens.

[clambake]

do you work for valero in the HR department?

[CuckingFunt]

The only reason to get turned down is that they have too much "on the books" verifiable income. The question that DOESN'T get asked is WHY doesn't this person have any verifiable income?

Aren't you usually a cheerleader for smaller gubmint? Would you really want someone sitting in an office to be making those sorts of judgment calls?

Not to mention that you have pretty drastically simplified the process. Contrary to popular belief, it is not easy to obtain or to keep food stamps.


The same Valero these people are slapping the Lone Star Card down at ALWAYS has a help wanted sign in the window and employment apps behind the counter.

They're buying slurpees for their kids, no? Does the 'hood Valero provide child care?

[CosmicCowboy]

Rather than continue to take flak for his childish and simple-minded vids, CC wants to talk about something else, anything else but the fact that nearly one in six Americans need public relief in order to eat.

And the only reason Winehole wants to micro-focus on food stamps is that he is too big of a bitch to discuss the bigger issue of perpetual dependency as a government provided lifestyle choice.

[CosmicCowboy]

Aren't you usually a cheerleader for smaller gubmint? Would you really want someone sitting in an office to be making those sorts of judgment calls?





They're buying slurpees for their kids, no? Does the 'hood Valero provide child care?

No, the local school taxes do that.

[Blake]

:lmao

Talk about avoiding the question...

yes.... there has been talk of you avoiding the question.

how do you determine what food is legitimate and what isnt?

[clambake]

the school will provide daycare while they're working at valero?

[CuckingFunt]

And the only reason Winehole wants to micro-focus on food stamps is that he is too big of a bitch to discuss the bigger issue of perpetual dependency as a government provided lifestyle choice.

I was under the impression the micro-focus on food stamps was at least in part to establish whether or not perpetual dependency is, as you suggest, a government provided lifestyle choice.

[ElNono]

million? I thought it was more, tbh...

[Winehole23]

@CC; How many people are government dependent cradle to grave?

Since you seem to care so much about it, why don't you quantify the problem so we can all have an idea how substantial it is.

How big is the permanent underclass? How much does it cost us? What is its rate of growth?

[CuckingFunt]

No, the local school taxes do that.

The local school taxes provide child care for working mothers when they're called in to handle the midnight shift at Valero? That's pretty damned impressive, actually.

[clambake]

he can see them walk past his office.

of course, thats just the cradle and not the grave.

[CosmicCowboy]

the school will provide daycare while they're working at valero?

Yes, the school will provide DAYcare. But not nightcare. The daycare is adjacent to the high school and is not just for enrolled students that don't skip class. And, obviously the Valero was just one example of potential employers.

[clambake]

Yes, the school will provide DAYcare. But not nightcare. The daycare is adjacent to the high school and is not just for enrolled students that don't skip class. And, obviously the Valero was just one example of potential employers.

i find it hard to believe that they could possibly provide daycare to all the people in need.

[ElNono]

Is the number also a record as a percentage of the GDP?

I'm pointing this out because you'll always going to have "record" this and that when using dollar figures, since inflation is real and the dollar will progressively buy less as time goes by.

[CosmicCowboy]

@CC; How many people are government dependent cradle to grave?

Since you seem to care so much about it, why don't you quantify the problem so we can all have an idea how substantial it is.

How big is the permanent underclass? How much does it cost us? What is its rate of growth?

If you are honestly interested I would suggest that google is your friend and you can do your own research.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

:lmao

Talk about avoiding the question...

It was a stupid obviously loaded question that assumed its own answer. Self serving discussion is just that. i was trying to steer the question back to a discussion of needs based assistance.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

If you are honestly interested I would suggest that google is your friend and you can do your own research.

So you are not going to back up up your claims of sensationalism but rather expect us to prove your fearmongering ourselves.

As I stated this is the same whit from 1996. The exact same shit. You got your welfare reform back then and it failed. The answer is not to do the same failed logic again.

[CosmicCowboy]

i find it hard to believe that they could possibly provide daycare to all the people in need.

google is your friend

http://www.workforcesolutionsalamo.org/childcare/default.asp

[CosmicCowboy]

So you are not going to back up up your claims of sensationalism but rather expect us to prove your fearmongering ourselves.

As I stated this is the same whit from 1996. The exact same shit. You got your welfare reform back then and it failed. The answer is not to do the same failed logic again.

What is your answer?

Put up or shut the fuck up.

[Winehole23]

If you are honestly interested I would suggest that google is your friend and you can do your own research.I thought you wanted to discuss it, or might have concrete info about perpetual dependency.

My bad.

[Winehole23]

I also thought you might be able to back up some of the claims you made upstream. Apparently I was mistaken about that as well.

[clambake]

google is your friend

http://www.workforcesolutionsalamo.org/childcare/default.asp

oh, so its just a certain amount of assistance.

be tough to cover that on minimum wage.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

What is your answer?

Put up or shut the fuck up.

Your question assumes the premise was true. I don't buy your welfare dependence dogma any more than i did back in 1996. Now you are going through this machismo nonsense. Its cute but adds nothing.

Show some proof of this perpetual dependency especially how the 1990s reform actually improved the supposed condition then i will answer your question.

At this point i might as well discuss whether or not people going out mocking bald eagles is bad or not.

[CosmicCowboy]

oh, so its just a certain amount of assistance.

be tough to cover that on minimum wage.

Yeah, you're right.

Lets just give up and go 100% on taxpayer support. No problem. It's just too much work to actually work for a living.

[Drachen]

Your question assumes the premise was true. I don't buy your welfare dependence dogma any more than i did back in 1996. Now you are going through this machismo nonsense. Its cute but adds nothing.

Show some proof of this perpetual dependency especially how the 1990s reform actually improved the supposed condition then i will answer your question.

At this point i might as well discuss whether or not people going out mocking bald eagles is bad or not.

Bald is beautiful is something only bald organisms say.

HEY CHROME DOME, MAKE YOURSELF USEFUL AND PUT SOME SOLAR PANELS UP THERE!

[CosmicCowboy]

Your question assumes the premise was true. I don't buy your welfare dependence dogma any more than i did back in 1996. Now you are going through this machismo nonsense. Its cute but adds nothing.

Show some proof of this perpetual dependency especially how the 1990s reform actually improved the supposed condition then i will answer your question.

At this point i might as well discuss whether or not people going out mocking bald eagles is bad or not.

No, all your attack posturing presumes that YOU have a solution.

Put it out on the table so we can kick the tires.

[Winehole23]

Is the number also a record as a percentage of the GDP?

I'm pointing this out because you'll always going to have "record" this and that when using dollar figures, since inflation is real and the dollar will progressively buy less as time goes by.It is an enrollment figure. 45.8 million Americans.

[Winehole23]

The cost was $6.13B. Far less than we spend in Afghanistan each month we are there.

[Winehole23]

Put it out on the table so we can kick the tires.So should you. You've dodged plenty in this thread.

[CosmicCowboy]

So should you. You've dodged plenty in this thread.

You might want to work on your reading comprehension.



I agree that some people under some circumstances need governmental assistance. As a program, the food cards are probably better than some of the other programs.

I honestly don't know what the answer is in weeding out the wheat from the chaff.

[ElNono]

It is an enrollment figure. 45.8 million Americans.

Thanks, that makes more sense!

[Winehole23]

There's nothing wrong with my reading comprehension, Cosmic. Perhaps your memory is faulty. I can list all the dodged questions if you like.

[CosmicCowboy]

Apparently there is. I even reposted it for you a couple of posts back. Are you really that stupid?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

No, all your attack posturing presumes that YOU have a solution.

Put it out on the table so we can kick the tires.

Attack posturing? i guess but my tone on this board is mostly adversarial. I don't see the 'welfare state' as 'conservatives' like to moniker as being a problem.

I especially hate this particular line of reasoning because that was the same shit they fed us while Clinton passed the welfare reform bill and banking deregulation. That was that same Congress.

Both were epic failures.

The elites in this country have a very long history of trying to get the middle class to side with them by stirring up fear of the poor and minorities. I don't buy that line of thinking.

You keep talking about how much tax you spend but 'welfare' dollars only comprise 10% or so of the budget. Of that 10% a lot is unemployment benefits, medicaid, etc. Very little of the pie goes to WIC, AFDC, and food stamps which are the clarion call for the 'welfare state' fearmongerer.

They just try to get the middle class to worry about impoverished darkies instead of how the stock market fluates 5+% any time there is a move in the european debt market or how out of a country of 300 million people we get to choose from only the 7 of Obama, Romney, Cain, Perry, Bauchman, Gingrich and Santorum.

[Winehole23]

I was referring to your pattern of evasion and deflection throughout, CC. I don't deny you gave an honest reply in that one post.

[velik_m]

Air should be provided to people who are unable to work for it. To those who simply choose not to work, air should not be provided. Doing so would only encourage more people to follow a similar path.

I realize this is a very basic viewpoint, but how exactly can any hardworking person turn a blind eye to the amount of waste and laziness that's fostered by this program?

Survival sure does motivate, but it might not motivate towards the best goals as far as society is concerned.

[diego]

assuming that the people who live on welfare/foodstamps (tbh Im not very familiar with the particulars of how the system works) choose to do so over working the Valero cashier shift, maybe the question should be why are min. wage jobs so crap that people prefer welfare/foodstamps over them? perhaps they arent given enough shifts to make more working than they do from welfare, and if that is the case 1) you can't blame them for preferring welfare and 2) the problem is not only the way welfare program is structured, but also the quality of min. wage jobs available

[CosmicCowboy]

assuming that the people who live on welfare/foodstamps (tbh Im not very familiar with the particulars of how the system works) choose to do so over working the Valero cashier shift, maybe the question should be why are min. wage jobs so crap that people prefer welfare/foodstamps over them? perhaps they arent given enough shifts to make more working than they do from welfare, and if that is the case 1) you can't blame them for preferring welfare and 2) the problem is not only the way welfare program is structured, but also the quality of min. wage jobs available

minimum qualifications = minimum wage

whose fault is that?

[Blake]

minimum qualifications = minimum wage

whose fault is that?

I don't know your answer to your question. Whose fault is it?

[CosmicCowboy]

I don't know your answer to your question. Whose fault is it?

uhhh...I guess the concept of personal responsibility is beyond you...

[Blake]

uhhh...I guess the concept of personal responsibility is beyond you...

you just threw a blank "minimum qualifications" out there without assigning it to anyone or anything.

I'm guessing now you are assigning it to the minimum wage employee, asserting that it his/her fault that they are working at a minimum wage job.

For the record, just throwing it out there, Wild Cobra agrees with you in assigning blame to the worker.

[Winehole23]

CC: You said upstream the underclass is "growing exponentially." Can you back that up or, at least, quantify the exponent?

[CosmicCowboy]

you just threw a blank "minimum qualifications" out there without assigning it to anyone or anything.

I'm guessing now you are assigning it to the minimum wage employee, asserting that it his/her fault that they are working at a minimum wage job.

For the record, just throwing it out there, Wild Cobra agrees with you in assigning blame to the worker.

Look shithead...minimum wage jobs are minimum wage jobs because they require minimum skill to do the job. Employers gladly pay for skills that will make them money. Skip school, don't get a decent education, don't have a good work ethic and minimum wage is what you can expect because that is all you are worth to an employer. My cheapest employee makes over twice minimum wage, but that's because he has skills that contribute to the overall good of the company.

[CosmicCowboy]

CC: You said upstream the underclass is "growing exponentially." Can you back that up?

Sure.

Just look at the poverty statistics in Texas.

[Winehole23]

Your claim, your burden. If you've got nothing, just say so.

[CosmicCowboy]

Your claim, your burden. If you've got nothing, just say so.

:lmao

I do not have the burden of attempting to educate you just because I post in this forum. You have to take a little responsibility on yourself.

[CosmicCowboy]

here is a teaser. Google is your friend.

http://mediad.publicbroadcasting.net/p/kut/files/styles/card/public/201110/tea_chart.jpg

[ElNono]

minimum qualifications = minimum wage

whose fault is that?

But you didn't address his point. Is it welfare being "too good" or minimum wage being "too low"? Both?

When minimum wage jobs need to be supplemented with welfare because they don't provide enough not to be on welfare, it's time to look not just at welfare, but also at minimum wage. And I believe that was his point.

[vy65]

here is a teaser. Google is your friend.

http://mediad.publicbroadcasting.net/p/kut/files/styles/card/public/201110/tea_chart.jpg

I think that just shows the number of poor kids being enrolled in school has increased - not that the overall number of poor people have increased.

[CosmicCowboy]

But you didn't address his point. Is it welfare being "too good" or minimum wage being "too low"? Both?

When minimum wage jobs need to be supplemented with welfare because they don't provide enough not to be on welfare, it's time to look not just at welfare, but also at minimum wage. And I believe that was his point.


I personally think that when unearned entitlement payments are > or = to minimum wage that it is a disincentive to take an entry level position.

The fact that they have no marketable skills (justifying the employer only offering minimum wage) does not mean that they COULD NOT LEARN MARKETABLE SKILLS IF they took a minimum wage position and worked their way up.

[Blake]

Skip school, don't get a decent education, don't have a good work ethic and minimum wage is what you can expect because that is all you are worth to an employer.

now you are assuming that minimum wage workers lack education and good work ethics.

you're an ignorant dumbfuck, tbh.

[CosmicCowboy]

I think that just shows the number of poor kids being enrolled in school has increased - not that the overall number of poor people have increased.

:lmao

[vy65]

Did I say something funny?

[Blake]

:lmao

I do not have the burden of attempting to educate you just because I post in this forum. You have to take a little responsibility on yourself.

:lmao:lmao

You obviously don't care how stupid and ignorant you look.

[CosmicCowboy]

now you are assuming that minimum wage workers lack education and good work ethics.

you're an ignorant dumbfuck, tbh.

Yes Blake, minimum wage workers typically lack marketable skills and a good work ethic. BTW education has nothing to do with marketable skills as you apparently have found out considering how bitter you are about it.

[CosmicCowboy]

Did I say something funny?

Yes, I was answering WH's question. An increase of students in poverty of 10% in 10 years is a good indication that institutional poverty is growing in Texas.

[vy65]

Yes, I was answering WH's question. An increase of students in poverty of 10% in 10 years is a good indication that institutional poverty is growing in Texas.

That's debatable. I don't think that chart is as authoritative as you'd think.

But I also don't give a fuck about this issue ...

[Winehole23]

TANF+SSP-MOE, 1994, total recipients: 14,225,661 (http://www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/ofa/data-reports/caseload/afdc/1994/fycytotal94_ek.htm); Texas: 787,504
TANF+SSP-MOE, 2010, total recipients: 4,594,409 (http://www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/ofa/data-reports/caseload/2010/2010_recipient_tanssp.htm); Texas: 116,740

[Winehole23]

Exponential growth, but the exponent is less than one.

[Winehole23]

The underclass is undeniably growing at the moment, but your picture of out of control, no questions asked, cradle to grave entitlement, bears only the faintest relation to reality. In 1994 you'd have had a better point.

[Winehole23]

SSI recipients, Texas, 2000 : 409,502 (http://www.socialsecurity.gov/policy/docs/statcomps/ssi_sc/2000/tx.html)

SSI recipients, Texas, 2010: 616,968 (http://www.socialsecurity.gov/policy/docs/statcomps/ssi_sc/2010/tx.html)

(During this time Texas's population increased by 20.7%, and we had an epochal financial panic.)

[Blake]

Yes Blake, minimum wage workers typically lack marketable skills and a good work ethic.

I'm guessing you are not going to back up this assertation either.


BTW education has nothing to do with marketable skills as you apparently have found out considering how bitter you are about it.

You are the one that mentioned skipping school, not me.

I have no reason to be bitter about anything anyone says on a messageboard. I'm calling you an ignorant dumbfuck because that is what you have proven yourself to be. Was just letting you know.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I'm guessing you are not going to back up this assertation either.



You are the one that mentioned skipping school, not me.

I have no reason to be bitter about anything anyone says on a messageboard. I'm calling you an ignorant dumbfuck because that is what you have proven yourself to be. Was just letting you know.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703434004576281682551325482.html

He has characterized the poor and will brook no other view apparently. Its the wrong view but whatever.

[Blake]

SSI recipients, Texas, 2000 : 409,502 (http://www.socialsecurity.gov/policy/docs/statcomps/ssi_sc/2000/tx.html)

SSI recipients, Texas, 2010: 616,968 (http://www.socialsecurity.gov/policy/docs/statcomps/ssi_sc/2010/tx.html)

(During this time Texas's population increased by 20.7%, and we had an epochal financial panic.)

then there's this:


Free and Reduced Price Lunch as an Indicator of Poverty

Researchers often use free or reduced price lunch (FRPL) enrollment figures as a proxy for poverty at the school level, because Census poverty data (which is used at the state and district level) is not available disaggregated below the school district level and is not collected annually. Accordingly, annual FRPL data is regularly used within school districts to determine a school’s eligibility for Title I funds. It is also used as a proxy for low-income status when determining whether a subgroup of needy students is making Adequate Yearly Progress (AYP) under No Child Left Behind.

While FRPL data is generally a reliable poverty indicator in the elementary grades, it is less so in the high school grades. Because free and reduced price lunch is an opt-in program at the majority of schools, researchers believe that high school students are greatly under-represented in school lunch program enrollment. High school students may refuse to enroll in FRPL due to a perceived stigma attached to the program. In part because FRPL participation is an unreliable proxy for poverty at the high school level, high schools receive disproportionately lower levels of No Child Left Behind funding.

http://febp.newamerica.net/background-analysis/federal-school-nutrition-programs

google is not CC's true friend

[Vici]

Didn't bother reading the thread but the second video is a parody.

Edit: I alway find it funny when someone supports their child going through school, yet if that parent wasn't there that child would have to apply for food stamps...

Not everyone is so lucky as to have their parents support them.

[ElNono]

I personally think that when unearned entitlement payments are > or = to minimum wage that it is a disincentive to take an entry level position.

Okay, there's the premise. Now, the question is, is it solely the fault of welfare being high or there's also a problem with the minimum wage not keeping up with basic standards of living?

IIRC, the 'highest' minimum wage (before taxes, but at that level it doesn't matter) is ~$16k on Washington state. Can you actually make ends meet in Washington state with that money? I seriously doubt it.

[diego]

I personally think that when unearned entitlement payments are > or = to minimum wage that it is a disincentive to take an entry level position.

agreed


The fact that they have no marketable skills (justifying the employer only offering minimum wage) does not mean that they COULD NOT LEARN MARKETABLE SKILLS IF they took a minimum wage position and worked their way up.

agreed as well

BUT, the part of the point you are not addressing is....

what is the point of having a minimum wage if that wage is, by the governments own standard, not enough to get by?

Also, it might not be a matter of raising the min. wage, but that the jobs available for that wage may all be part time and thus not enough to get by.

Its not so simple as to just say "lower welfare" and solve the problem, at least not without a lot of information to back that up.

[diego]

for example, nearly all of my employees make more than the average local salary (chile), yet all of them that have children have 2nd jobs or home businesses to supplement their income; even though they make well over minimum its still not enough to put their kids through school/university...

[Dex]

http://www.abc15.com/dpp/news/region_phoenix_metro/central_phoenix/food-stamps-to-be-accepted-at-taco-bell

[Winehole23]

For CC:

http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/Files/rc/papers/2011/1103_poverty_kneebone_nadeau_berube/1103_poverty_kneebone_nadeau_berube.pdf

[greyforest]

o64Fz-KW1Dk

NzspsovNvII&

Hahahahah these are great. The second is a woman literally IRL trolling all US taxpayers.

Taking more from society than you give back to it is a huge concern. A society is only able to support so many parasites. We would be just fine if all we have to bail out are impoverished ghetto residents buying Funyuns, but it turns out VAST CORPORATIONS ARE RECEIVING CORPORATE WELFARE, TO THE TUNE OF FUCKING BILLIONS OF DOLLARS (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-20129155/study-many-fortune-500-cos-paid-$0-taxes/)


Of those 280 companies, 78 corporations had at least one year during which their U.S. federal tax was zero or less, and many had more than one year paying no tax, despite recording profits; many of these companies also received tax rebates. In 2009 alone, 49 companies earned combined profits of $78.6 billion, yet paid no taxes - and collected tax rebates totaling $10.8 billion.

but just stay mad at all those black people mmk?

[boutons_deux]

50% of workers in USA make no more than $29K/year.

$14.5/hour for 2000 hours.

And of course they very probably have no employer health insurance, can't afford even (non-tax-deductible) catastrophe insurance at $3000+/year, no paid sick time, and are looking at a useless safety net if they lose their job (like if they get sick, they get fired).

But, but, but America is the most wealthy, kick-ass county on the planet, perhaps ever!

[MannyIsGod]

Okay, there's the premise. Now, the question is, is it solely the fault of welfare being high or there's also a problem with the minimum wage not keeping up with basic standards of living?

IIRC, the 'highest' minimum wage (before taxes, but at that level it doesn't matter) is ~$16k on Washington state. Can you actually make ends meet in Washington state with that money? I seriously doubt it.

We have a 10 dollar an hour minimum wage in Santa Fe so that would be about 21k

[Winehole23]

Lotsa info on exponentially expanding welfare caseloads and expenditures here:

http://aspe.hhs.gov/hsp/indicators08/apa.shtml#ftanf2

[ElNono]

We have a 10 dollar an hour minimum wage in Santa Fe so that would be about 21k

Thanks. I got the other figures from the article linked above:

With an annual minimum wage of $13,920 before taxes (Georgia and Wyoming) to $16,646.40 (Washington state), the key to surviving is dropping your fixed costs

link (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703434004576281682551325482.html)

[Winehole23]

http://www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/ofa/data-reports/congress/tanft71.htm

[Winehole23]

The median length of time on assistance was 2 years since the most recent opening of the case. One in three families had been on the rolls for one year or less, and one in four had been on the rolls for five years or more. Since FY 1994 there has been a small but steady decline in the percentage of the caseload on assistance in their current spell for one year or less (36% to 33%) and a corresponding increase in the percentage of the caseload on assistance five years or more (19% to 24%). This suggests the long term recipients are an increasing percentage of state caseloads. More than 40 percent of the families are known to have been on the rolls sometime prior to the most recent opening. ibid.