Should USA had held general voting on bailouts like Greece will?

[cheguevara]

wonder where ppl stand on this?

IMO if Obama had called general voting on a referendum whether to bail out banks or not. He would have been accussed of socialism? Would the would-be Tea Party heads exploded in unison? Would it have passed? What would the "economic armaggedon" have been like? or was it just scare tactics from the 1%??

I guess we will find out somewhat once Greece does the votings...

[boutons_deux]

Greece's Choice -- And Ours: Democracy Or Finance?
Posted: 11/1/11 03:07 PM ET

Which do you trust more: democracy or financial markets?

Greek Prime Minister George Papandreou decided in favor of democracy yesterday when he announced a national referendum on the draconian budget cuts Europe and the IMF are demanding from Greece in return for bailing it out.

(Or, more accurately, the cuts Europe and the IMF are demanding for bailing out big European banks that have lent Greece lots of money and stand to lose big if Greece defaults on those loans -- not to mention Wall Street banks that will also suffer because of their intertwined financial connections with European banks.)

If Greeks accept the bailout terms, unemployment will rise even further in Greece, public services will be cut more than they have already, the Greek economy will contract, and the standard of living of most Greeks will deteriorate further.

If Greeks reject the terms and the nation defaults, it will face far higher borrowing costs in the future. This may reduce the standard of living of most Greeks, too. But it doesn't have to. Without the austerity measures the rest of Europe and the IMF are demanding, the Greek economy has a better chance of growing and more Greeks are likely to find jobs.

Shouldn't Greeks be able to make this decision for themselves?

Of course, if Greek defaults on its loans, global investors (fearing that a default in Greece sets a dangerous precedent) may yank their money out of Italy. This would almost certainly bust several big European banks -- and generate panic on Wall Street. That's why Tim Geithner has been pressing Europe to bail out Greece.

We've been here before, remember? Here in the United States, at the end of 2008 and start of 2009. Wall Street had made lots of bad loans, and the question we faced then was whether to bail out the Street.

The difference is, we didn't hold a referendum. Instead, the Bush administration told Congress the nation risked "economic Armageddon" if it didn't immediately authorize a giant bailout of the Street -- with no strings attached. Of course Congress hastily agreed. Hank Paulson, Ben Bernanke, and Tim Geithner (as head of the New York Fed) then doled out the money. And the Obama administration (with Geithner installed as Treasury Secretary) gave out more.

So instead of allowing the Street to live with the consequences of its negligence, we bailed it out -- and allowed the Main Streets of America to suffer the consequences.

If Americans had been consulted about the bank bailout, I doubt it would have happened the way it did. At the very least, strict conditions would have been placed on the banks in return for the money. The banks would have had to eat the losses of the predatory mortgages they sold, and help homeowners reduce those mortgages. They'd be required to improve the capitalization of small banks in communities across the country. They'd be forced to accept stringent new regulations, including resurrection of Glass-Steagall.

But Americans weren't really consulted. It was an inside job.

As a result, Wall Street has prospered but the rest of the nation hasn't. One out of four homeowners is underwater, owing more on their homes than the homes are worth.

And with the worst economy since the Great Depression, we're now embarking on fiscal austerity. Either Congress's super-committee comes up with $1.2 trillion of federal budget cuts that Congress agrees to -- going into effect a little over thirteen months from now -- or $1.5 trillion of cuts are made across the board. Meanwhile, states and cities have been slashing public services for the past three years.

So which is it? Rule by democracy or by financial markets? Based on what's happened in America, I'd choose the former.

================

Remember the Wall St/Paulsen's 3-pager extortion: bail out the financial sector or the financial sector will shut down America. Give Paulsen $700B (a number that later was admitted pulled out of their asses), give it to him within 7 days, and make Paulsen handling of the $700B beyond the reach of the Legislative and Judicial branches (above the law).

========

The Argies told the banks to fuck off and defaulted, and now Argentina is doing extremely well, while Iceland is also doing much better than if it had bailed out its banks.

Ireland OTOH bailed out its banks and is suffering horribly, much like the US.

[101A]

TARP was Bush, not Obama.

The vast majority in Washington were for it; those against it, both there, and on this board, were told how naive we were - that, essentially, the world would come to an end if the bailouts didn't occur. The only vocal group against the bailouts at the time (Oct. '08) were some Republicans in the House.

On referendum, it probably would have passed, but most didn't understand wtf was happening then.

[boutons_deux]

"TARP was Bush, not Obama."

who said anything different? Paulson was dubya's Treasurer, Paulson started TARP, dubya approved it, then Congress extened Paulson's 3-pager by several 100 pages.

[Drachen]

wonder where ppl stand on this?

IMO if Obama had called general voting on a referendum whether to bail out banks or not. He would have been accussed of socialism? Would the would-be Tea Party heads exploded in unison? Would it have passed? What would the "economic armaggedon" have been like? or was it just scare tactics from the 1%??

I guess we will find out somewhat once Greece does the votings...


"TARP was Bush, not Obama."

who said anything different? Paulson was dubya's Treasurer, Paulson started TARP, dubya approved it, then Congress extened Paulson's 3-pager by several 100 pages.

Re-read the OP Boutons. No need to get pissy, 101a was correcting a wrong. I am surprised that you didnt catch it. Overall 101a is good people.

[cheguevara]

well Bush is history. Obama approved additional bailouts so he is the guy to blame according to Tea Party.

I was one of the ones who said the bailouts were a good idea. Now I am not so sure. I think the 1% duped and fear mongered everyone

[velik_m]

Important issues such as this should be decided on the referendum. What good is democracy, if people get to decide only on unimportant issues?

Also great political move by Greek PM. He's in a lose-lose situation, this way he gets to shift the responsibility and ultimately the blame to someone else.

[TDMVPDPOY]

EU is doing what US was doing, printing out phoney money and lending it out which has no nominal value...explains why these clowns are willing to lend greece 100billion and writing down bad debt 50%...

greece and the other insolvent countries should just declare bankruptcy then piling on more debt and selling their souls to the devils...

[Winehole23]

On referendum, it probably would have passed... Depends on how quickly the referendum could have been held, but it appears you're right

While initially supportive of the Troubled Asset Relief Program (TARP), public opinion turned against it very quickly and, in almost all polls, the public opposed a second TARP. In February 2009, a CNN/ORC poll showed that 62 percent thought that second half of the TARP money should be not be released to banks and other financial institutions.
http://www.aei.org/paper/100105

...but most didn't understand wtf was happening then.Perhaps not, but maybe some of us had a clue:




The degree of public resistance to TARP is interesting because the public clearly saw the situation in the fall of 2008 was very serious. In September 2008, 52 percent thought the current financial situation was a crisis. (ABC News/Washington Post)
In most polls, solid majorities opposed aid to the auto companies. A December 2008 Gallup poll showed that 51 percent were opposed, while 43 percent were in favor of financial assistance to the big three automakers.
Americans initially supported the stimulus, but once again, opinion turned against it very quickly. In February 2009, CNN/Opinion Research poll showed a majority of 60 percent favored the economic stimulus bill. In January 2010, a minority of 42 percent favored it.
For the government programs covered in this document, individuals did not believe the programs would make their economic situation better. 47 percent said in an October 2008 Fox/Opinion Dynamics question that the financial rescue package would make no difference on their family's financial situation, 16 percent said it would help their family's situation, and 28 percent said it would hurt. In February 2009, 54 percent said the stimulus bill would not make a difference in their financial situation, 24 percent said it would help their economic situation, and 19 percent said it would hurt.

Ibid.

[101A]

Depends on how quickly the referendum could have been held, but it appears you're righthttp://www.aei.org/paper/100105
Perhaps not, but maybe some of us had a clue:
Ibid.

Probably why they wanted to get it over with SO quickly; before the public could put 2 + 2 Trillion together, and demand some heads (and corps) to roll BEFORE TARP.

[cheguevara]

referendum would have never passed in Greece. Just like it would have never passed in the USA.

that is why the monkey PM scrapped it. EU buddies at the banks took him to the shitter. He rather see his career and homeland burn than let his millionaire buddies down.

[DarkReign]

To answer the OP, yes, it should have been put to a hasty vote. Pass or not, at least you it would have been a collective decision.

As it stands, now people just hate the government because they unilaterally decided to indebt the public even further for the gain of relatively few.

At least I would have had someone to punch in the face, is my point, had it been put to public vote.

[baseline bum]

Probably why they wanted to get it over with SO quickly; before the public could put 2 + 2 Trillion together, and demand some heads (and corps) to roll BEFORE TARP.

I don't think the public ever understood how big a number $700 billion is, and the media sure never tried to help them know. What are people going to compare it to in order to get an idea of how monstrous a number it really is? 50 times the age of the universe (in years)? Half the number of days the Earth has existed?

The net US consumption is about 100 million trillion joules of energy per year (for comparison picking up a calculus book from the floor to your waist is maybe 20 joules). Let's say we're stupid and decide to power the nation exclusively from gasoline bought at the pump, and let's say the price of gas is fixed at $3.50 a gallon (for simplicity). A gallon of gas provides about 130 million joules energy. If we powered our nation using nothing but gas we'd then need rougly 770 billion gallons to provide that 100 million trillion joules. So at $3.50 a gallon, that's $2.7 trillion; the first round of the bailout was then about a quarter of the nation's entire energy bill if they used nothing but expensive-ass gasoline for driving, powering factories, for electricity and heating in the home, for cooking, etc. I'm not sure what our nation's real energy bill is, but it's gotta be way cheaper since coal, hydroelectric, and natural gas are significantly cheaper than using oil, so the bailout probably comes out looking way worse then.

[boutons_deux]

the $700B was mostly paid back.

the $1.1T in liabilities that Geithner/taxpayers sucked down from the financial sector ain't never gonna be paid back.

[Nbadan]

Whether you believe that the financial sector needed the TARP money or not is irreverent...especially since a majority of the money has been paid back to taxpayers..

..There is no real debate that we avoided financial Armageddon and now that the economy and country is headed in a better direction, doubters want to play the-grass-is-greener....

[TDMVPDPOY]

Whether you believe that the financial sector needed the TARP money or not is irreverent...especially since a majority of the money has been paid back to taxpayers..

..There is no real debate that we avoided financial Armageddon and now that the economy and country is headed in a better direction, doubters want to play the-grass-is-greener....

and how much of that money was really in the feds locks thats reported b4 actually printing out more money thats not backed up....

the money that the fed has printed out during the bailouts werent backed up with gold or anything, just another I.O.U knote...

[boutons_deux]

"avoided financial Armageddon"

the banks and AIG were/are bankrupt. They should have been nationalized, split up, and sold. Instead the TBTF are even bigger, more dominant, and still completely free from regulations to screw us again. And they will, it's how they make the $Ts. The financial sector and their employees in govt suckered US again.

[hater]

agree ^

the banks did the equivalent of a robber robbing your house when you are not home. Then you inviting them over for cofffe where they come back and rob you at gunpoint again, rape your wife in front of you and piss on your favorite couch. And you send them home with a pat on the back.

[101A]

Whether you believe that the financial sector needed the TARP money or not is irreverent...especially since a majority of the money has been paid back to taxpayers..

..There is no real debate that we avoided financial Armageddon and now that the economy and country is headed in a better direction, doubters want to play the-grass-is-greener....

If the bailouts needed to happen, they needed to happen; but as the previous posters have pointed out; heads needed (still need) to roll. The people who brought the world's economy to its knees got bonuses for doing so; and are still in positions, if not in even stronger positions, to do it again. There is enough cave man in me to think that I could have handled "financial Armageddon" if I only could have witnessed financiers taking 120 story headers in Manhattan. In '29 dudes were jumping; they should have been in '08 as well.