Patriots are better without Moss!!!

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

[Axe Murderer]

DoK/mono/any other Pats fan that's not retarded

would you guys be down for them to sign TO?

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Tough one but probably yes. They sure as hell aren't winning a superbowl with this cheese dick group of receivers, so I'll take the 2% chance T.O. plays hard and doesn't cause any problems over the 0% chance they win a superbowl with Wes Welker as the stud receiver.

Bringing back Moss with whatever it takes is a much better alternative, but I'll take T.O. over the alternative of standing pat with what they have. They had a nice little gimmicky run right after the Moss trade where teams were still defending the deep ball as if New England still had a deep ball threat, but their offense has been exposed now and every team knows to crowd the LOS and bring the safeties up.

[LnGrrrR]

Isn't there at least one other receiver other than TO and Moss on the market? :lol I'd hate to root for TO. I'd be fine if Moss came back, I just don't think BB would let it happen.

[lefty]

Yeah, another WR is gonna improve the Pats' D

[Monostradamus]

Yeah it's retarded to be so stubborn and not give Moss a call.

Then again, this is the same dumbshit who has refused to draft a pass rusher in the 1st round and thought Derrick Burgess/Tully Banta Cain/Jermaine Cunningham was the answer.

[LnGrrrR]

I think his love of the nickel sub is killing us too. In theory it makes sense; passing is much more important to defend than rushing. But we get no pass rush in that package, and our 1 and 2 cornerbacks aren't good enough, let alone our 3rd, 4th and 5th.

[LnGrrrR]

Just reading an article now, and Tracy White was on the field for the final play.

Who the fuck is Tracy White? :lol

[Blake]

Wes welker is just doing what a welker does.

No moss needed.

[Monostradamus]

Wes welker is just doing what a welker does.

No moss needed.

catching a bunch of pointless 5 yard passes?

[Bill_Brasky]

Why are people hating on The Natural? Hes definitely not a part of the problem.

Pats are 5-3, and would have won yesterday if they took their time on the last drive and left NY less clock to respond with. Thats on the coaching.

[Monostradamus]

Welker isn't the problem, he's just not the solution either. Brady over-relying on Welker has been a problem for a few years now, and not having Moss anymore makes it worse.

[Bill_Brasky]

Welker isn't the problem, he's just not the solution either. Brady over-relying on Welker has been a problem for a few years now, and not having Moss anymore makes it worse.

I'll buy that Brady needs a deep threat. But imo hes relying a lot more on his TEs this year than Welker, based on the couple of Pats games I've watched, especially in the red zone.

[Blake]

catching a bunch of pointless 5 yard passes?

don't know what NE games you are watching, tbh

[Blake]

Welker isn't the problem, he's just not the solution either. Brady over-relying on Welker has been a problem for a few years now, and not having Moss anymore makes it worse.

Being top five in almost every offensive category is a problem?

you sound like gnsf griping about Bonner shooting too many threes.

[Blake]

I'll buy that Brady needs a deep threat. But imo hes relying a lot more on his TEs this year than Welker, based on the couple of Pats games I've watched, especially in the red zone.

and the Pats are 4th best at getting a TD in the red zone this year at a 64% clip.

[Bill_Brasky]

and the Pats are 4th best at getting a TD in the red zone this year at a 64% clip.


Pretty damn efficient.

They score well when they get the opportunity; they just didn't move the ball as well within the 20's yesterday until later in the game.

Left NY way too much time on the last drive.

[Blake]

Pretty damn efficient.

They score well when they get the opportunity; they just didn't move the ball as well within the 20's yesterday until later in the game.

Left NY way too much time on the last drive.

what was stupid there was the Woodhead run outside on 1st down after the 2 minute warning where they pushed him out of bounds. Saved NY at least 20 seconds right there.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

lol Techfan circle jerk about their golden white boy who chokes in big games not being a problem

Welker would be irrelevant without the best slot receiver offense in the history of the NFL. He's at this point the most overrated player in the NFL.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

But imo hes relying a lot more on his TEs this year than Welker
http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/stats/_/name/ne/new-england-patriots

Wes Welker 92 targets

The next highest guy (Gronkowski) 62 targets.

If "in your opinion" Brady isn't over relying on Welker by targeting Welker 30 fuckin more times than any other receiver or tight end, then "your opinion" is pretty fuckin retarded.

[Nathan89]

Overrated Brady needs Moss.:cry

[Bill_Brasky]

http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/stats/_/name/ne/new-england-patriots

Wes Welker 92 targets

The next highest guy (Gronkowski) 62 targets.

If "in your opinion" Brady isn't over relying on Welker by targeting Welker 30 fuckin more times than any other receiver or tight end, then "your opinion" is pretty fuckin retarded.

Considering "TEs" has an s on the end(making it plural, as in more than one), and both TEs have combined for more targets than Welker, id say that makes you the retard.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

So the fact you find two players with more combined targets than Welker (one player) means Brady isn't over relying on him? That's some of the most fucktarded logic I've ever seen.

Hey, everyone else on the team has more combined targets than him! Obviously that means he's not being over relied on!

Any team expecting a 5'8" physically limited honky to be their leading receiver is over relying on him. When he has 30 more targets than anyone else on the team, it's even worse. Welker will never be the 1st or 2nd on a superbowl team in targets. He's a 3rd option at best.

[DPG21920]

Hey,

They have a deep as fuck group of corners if they're all healthy. Bodden and McCourty as the starting corners, probably Darius Butler as the nickel corner, and Arrington/Ras-I Dowling/Wilhite as the other corners.

Their safeties are the issue since Meriweather is a moron and Pat Chung sucks in coverage.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Yeah um I already pointed out how retarded det was :lol

[Bill_Brasky]

So the fact you find two players with more combined targets than Welker (one player) means Brady isn't over relying on him? That's some of the most fucktarded logic I've ever seen.

Hey, everyone else on the team has more combined targets than him! Obviously that means he's not being over relied on!

Any team expecting a 5'8" physically limited honky to be their leading receiver is over relying on him. When he has 30 more targets than anyone else on the team, it's even worse. Welker will never be the 1st or 2nd on a superbowl team in targets. He's a 3rd option at best.

:lol mad

I never claimed the Pats would win a SB with The Natural as the #1. Name me one team in the NFL with 2 TEs with better stats than Gronk/Hernandez.

Im waiting.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

That doesn't have to do with anything. You said a team isn't a relying on a player when he has 30 more targets than anyone else, which is a retarded opinion.

[Blake]

who cares if they are over-relying on him.

he's kicking ass and so is the Pats offense.

if anything, Welker is underrated.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

The Pats offense is kicking ass? Have you watched the last 2 games?

Overrelying on Welker is a proven recipe for failure (2007, 2009, and it'll happen again this year).

At least you're willing to accept the obvious that they're over relying on Welker.

[Bill_Brasky]

That doesn't have to do with anything. You said a team isn't a relying on a player when he has 30 more targets than anyone else, which is a retarded opinion.

No, retarded is taking what somebody says out of context amd trying to make it look like they said something that they didnt.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

So you admit Brady over relies on Welker then? Thanks for playing.

[Bill_Brasky]

So you admit Brady over relies on Welker then? Thanks for playing.

No. I dont think he over relies on anybody. I pointed out that he throws to his TEs more than Welker, esp. in the red zone, as evidenced by their 11 TDs to his 6. I think theyll end up OK if they can sort out the defense, which played a nice first half yesterday.

In essence you think that what the Pats are doing by relying on (mostly)Welker to move the ball between the 20s and having TEs do work when they get to the RZ is stupid. I think the jurys still out.

But I will say that they need to find a reliable, consistent running game.

[Blake]

The Pats offense is kicking ass? Have you watched the last 2 games?


yeah. The Pats D and running game both suck equal amounts of ass.

[Blake]

steelers game:

Gronk 9 targets
Welker 8
Branch 7

Giants game:

Gronk 15 targets
Welker 10 (9 rec 136 yds)


seems to me that the should have gone back to the tried and true method of over-relying on Welker

[Axe Murderer]

DoK is right tbh

The Pats need a legit #1 WR with size who can run real routes. Welker is good at his natural position, slot receiver, but isn't one who can take over games consistently

[Blake]

Nobody 'needs' a legit #1 receiver to take over games and win a SB.

Huge myth, tbh.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

It was a myth a few years ago, the NFL has gotten so pass oriented that you need a great group of receivers to win it all.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

steelers game:

Gronk 9 targets
Welker 8
Branch 7

Giants game:

Gronk 15 targets
Welker 10 (9 rec 136 yds)


seems to me that the should have gone back to the tried and true method of over-relying on Welker
Yeah, the Patriots' offense sucks so Brady is forced to throw to guys like Gronk and Welker way more than he should. It's not like I'm saying they'd get better simply by not having Welker.

[Bill_Brasky]

steelers game:

Gronk 9 targets
Welker 8
Branch 7

Giants game:

Gronk 15 targets
Welker 10 (9 rec 136 yds)


seems to me that the should have gone back to the tried and true method of over-relying on Welker

You have to take into account that defenses have been keying in on Welker. They have to find more ways to get him open.

A solid rushing attack could help.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Yeah that's why Welker falls apart in the 4th quarter. After 3 quarters teams eventually realize, "Oh, all Brady ever does is throw to Welker and none of his receivers are a threat to catch a pass > than 20 yards, we can just bring our safeties up and jam Welker."

[Blake]

It was a myth a few years ago, the NFL has gotten so pass oriented that you need a great group of receivers to win it all.

Packers receivers arent that great.

Rodgers is.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Greg Jennings, Donald Driver, James Jones and Jordy Nelson kicks the living shit out of the group of receivers New England has.

[Blake]

Yeah that's why Welker falls apart in the 4th quarter. After 3 quarters teams eventually realize, "Oh, all Brady ever does is throw to Welker and none of his receivers are a threat to catch a pass > than 20 yards, we can just bring our safeties up and jam Welker."

which according to you would be better for the team?

[Blake]

Greg Jennings, Donald Driver, James Jones and Jordy Nelson kicks the living shit out of the group of receivers New England has.

true, but theyre still not that great.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

which according to you would be better for the team?
If you're referring to over throwing to Welker or over throwing to Gronk, neither one is a better option than the other as they both will result in early playoff defeat.

The option I'd prefer is getting a competent 1st and 2nd wideout so Brady doesn't force the ball to any receiver.

[Blake]

If you're referring to over throwing to Welker or over throwing to Gronk, neither one is a better option than the other as they both will result in early playoff defeat.

The option I'd prefer is getting a competent 1st and 2nd wideout so Brady doesn't force the ball to any receiver.

theres nothing anywhere other than your ass that suggests Brady is forcing passes.

the NE offense and passing game is currently Super Bowl caliber, imo.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

theres nothing anywhere other than your ass that suggests Brady is forcing passes.

the NE offense and passing game is currently Super Bowl caliber, imo.
We've been saying that the last several years and then watching it come up flat in the playoffs. Against good pass defenses, the passing attack has been inconsistent and shitty this year. It looks good on paper because it has games like the Dolphins one that inflate its numbers.

This offense doesn't seem any different, it looks just as shitty as the 2009 offense.

[Monostradamus]

:lmao why are tech fans so defensive? we're not saying welker sucks or that we wish he wasn't on the team, we're just saying there's no way you can win playoff games consistently when Welker is far and away the #1 option on offense. If you'd like to dispute that, please point to all of Welker's SB rings.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

Packers receivers arent that great.

Rodgers is.

Individually, no.

But as a core they are, especially adding Finley to the mix.

[Blake]

Against good pass defenses, the passing attack has been inconsistent and shitty this year.

do the Jets have a good pass defense?

pick a game you are referring to

[Blake]

:lmao why are tech fans so defensive? we're not saying welker sucks or that we wish he wasn't on the team, we're just saying there's no way you can win playoff games consistently when Welker is far and away the #1 option on offense. If you'd like to dispute that, please point to all of Welker's SB rings.

:lmao:lmao why is pats fan bashing the one thing that seems to be working for the pats this year?

Welker is tearing up the league this year stats-wise. How stupid do you have to be to want them to stop throwing him the ball this way?

[Blake]

Individually, no.

But as a core they are, especially adding Finley to the mix.

Thanks to Rodgers, they look pretty good. Still not great though.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

do the Jets have a good pass defense?

pick a game you are referring to
How bout the Giants game or Steelers game?

Also, I've said it already, the Patriots had one of the best passing offenses in the NFL statistically in 2009, 2010 and this year. Relying on smallish receivers like Welker and Branch has produced great regular season results and horrid post season results. There's no reason to think Wes Welker will suddenly become a reliable go-to option in the playoffs this year.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Thanks to Rodgers, they look pretty good. Still not great though.
Driver and Jennings were productive receivers before Rodgers came along. Welker was irrelevant before he was taken in by Brady and the Patriots' offense. Idk how you can see Rodgers makes his receivers look pretty good when you're trying to glorify the biggest system product in the NFL right now.

[Blake]

How bout the Giants game or Steelers game?

Giants game, Brady had a bad game, made some terrible throws, but still got his team downfield to score a last minute TD.

Steelers game, Pitt controlled the clock because the Pats defense sucks. Brady was 24-35 198 yds 2 tds for a 101.8 QB rating.


Also, I've said it already, the Patriots had one of the best passing offenses in the NFL statistically in 2009, 2010 and this year. Relying on smallish receivers like Welker and Branch has produced great regular season results and horrid post season results. There's no reason to think Wes Welker will suddenly become a reliable go-to option in the playoffs this year.

Welker was out vs the Ravens in the 09-10 playoff loss where Brady was horrible.

Welker was banged up most of the year last year and Bill pulled him from the first series in a playoff game for the Ryan foot joke.

Honestly, there's no reason not to keep the league's #1 receiver as the team's #1 receiver heading into the playoffs.

[Blake]

Driver and Jennings were productive receivers before Rodgers came along.

k, Favre and Rodgers

btw, productive =/= great



Welker was irrelevant before he was taken in by Brady and the Patriots' offense. Idk how you can see Rodgers makes his receivers look pretty good when you're trying to glorify the biggest system product in the NFL right now.

Welker led the Dolphins in receiving in 2006. Why do you think the Patriots traded 2nd and 7th round picks for Welker?

He was good already. Brady has made him great.

That's how it works.

A great QB will make average WRs good; good WRs great; great WRs hall of famers.

[Bill_Brasky]

:lmao why are tech fans so defensive? we're not saying welker sucks or that we wish he wasn't on the team, we're just saying there's no way you can win playoff games consistently when Welker is far and away the #1 option on offense. If you'd like to dispute that, please point to all of Welker's SB rings.

Speaking of SB rings, how many does Randy Moss have?

[Blake]

Speaking of SB rings, how many does Randy Moss have?

.... or TO, Ocho, L Fitz, Boldin, Calvin, Steve Smith, B Marshall, Andre Johnson....

[leemajors]

haynesworth released?

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Welker led the Dolphins in receiving in 2006.
Wrong, Marty Booker (:lol Marty Booker) led the 2006 Dolphins in receiving.


Why do you think the Patriots traded 2nd and 7th round picks for Welker?
Because they saw a great fit for their system.


He was good already. Brady has made him great.
He had yet to eclipse 700 yards before going to New England and had 1,175 yards his first season in New England. He was a mediocre at best receiver before going to New England, you're kidding yourself if you think anyone outside of the Dolphins fan base or Tech fan base knew much about Wes Welker prior to 2007. He was an irrelevant player.


A great QB will make average WRs good; good WRs great; great WRs hall of famers.
Brady and New England's offense made Troy Brown a near 1,200 yard receiver, Julian fuckin Edelman has had several 100+ yard games when Welker was injured, and in 2006 Reche Caldwell looked like he belonged in the NFL. New England's offense has done way more for slot receivers than what you just described.

[Blake]

Wrong, Marty Booker (:lol Marty Booker) led the 2006 Dolphins in receiving.

I'm right. Welker received more passes than Chris Chambers or lol Marty Booker.

....and did it while only starting 2 games.



Because they saw a great fit for their system.

Relevance confirmed. :tu


He had yet to eclipse 700 yards before going to New England and had 1,175 yards his first season in New England. He was a mediocre at best receiver before going to New England, you're kidding yourself if you think anyone outside of the Dolphins fan base or Tech fan base knew much about Wes Welker prior to 2007. He was an irrelevant player.

Irrelevance to fans is not the same as being irrelevant to GMs.

Nobody gives up two draft picks for a player with mediocre results on the field.


Brady and New England's offense made Troy Brown a near 1,200 yard receiver, Julian fuckin Edelman has had several 100+ yard games when Welker was injured, and in 2006 Reche Caldwell looked like he belonged in the NFL. New England's offense has done way more for slot receivers than what you just described.

You're stupid if you think a player can lead the NFL in receptions and yardage halfway through the season by being mediocre.

If it was that easy for a slot receiver in NE to get 100 catches, someone should have done it before Welker.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

I'm right. Welker received more passes than Chris Chambers or lol Marty Booker.
When the fuck did leading a team in receiving = leading a team in receptions. The universal meaning for "leading a team in receiving" has always having the most reception yards. By your logic Welker also "led the Patriots in receiving" in 2007.



Relevance confirmed. :tu
Relevance to the team that


Irrelevance to fans is not the same as being irrelevant to GMs.
But he was irrelevant to fans prior to 2007, I'm glad you're at least admitting that.


Nobody gives up two draft picks for a player with mediocre results on the field.
Do you think a career with < 700 receiving yards every season is better than mediocre results?


You're stupid if you think a player can lead the NFL in receptions and yardage halfway through the season by being mediocre.
When he's in the same offense that got Troy Brown a season with 1,199 yards, not really.


If it was that easy for a slot receiver in NE to get 100 catches, someone should have done it before Welker.
You act like New England didn't have jack shit at receiver for Brady's career prior to 2007. I'm not disputing the fact Welker is better than any slot receiver Brady had before him.


Why couldn't Welker put up more than 700 receiving yards without Brady if he's such a beast on his own?

[Axe Murderer]

Nobody 'needs' a legit #1 receiver to take over games and win a SB.


tbh you're right, i got a little carried away with that statement imho

but you still need a complete #1 receiver to win it all. Welker runs too many gimmicky routes to be that kind of #1 immhoo

[Blake]

When the fuck did leading a team in receiving = leading a team in receptions. The universal meaning for "leading a team in receiving" has always having the most reception yards. By your logic Welker also "led the Patriots in receiving" in 2007.

re·ceive (r-sv), re·ceiv·ing, re·ceives

8. Football To catch or take possession of a kicked ball.




But he was irrelevant to fans prior to 2007, I'm glad you're at least admitting that.

sure. It makes no difference.


Do you think a career with < 700 receiving yards every season is better than mediocre results?

I think Welker's performance in the limited duty he got was better than mediocre.

PR and KR included.


When he's in the same offense that got Troy Brown a season with 1,199 yards, not really.

I forgot Troy hit the 100 reception mark.

You are underestimating that dude too.


You act like New England didn't have jack shit at receiver for Brady's career prior to 2007. I'm not disputing the fact Welker is better than any slot receiver Brady had before him.

He didn't have any perennial pro bowler/hall of fame receivers that I can think of.


Why couldn't Welker put up more than 700 receiving yards without Brady if he's such a beast on his own?

did with Cassel

[Blake]

but you still need a complete #1 receiver to win it all.

lol Welker not being a complete receiver and leading the league in just about everything

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

lol thinking Wes Welker is a complete #1 receiver

[Blake]

lol thinking Wes Welker is a complete #1 receiver

lol stereotyping

[Pelicans78]

Pats have a good offense, but don't have dynamic players which limits their offense. Welker isn't the problem, but he isn't the solution. Their offense isn't as great as people think.

[Blake]

Pats have a good offense, but don't have dynamic players which limits their offense. Welker isn't the problem, but he isn't the solution. Their offense isn't as great as people think.

Pats passing game isn't a problem at all.

Pats fans griping about Brady forcing the ball into Welker instead of discussing all the other glaring problems they have is lol.

[Axe Murderer]

lol stereotyping

nope

take Bryant for example. he's as Luck_The_Fakers_Luck_The_Fakers_Luck_The_Fakers_Lu ck_The_Fakers_Luck_The_Fakers_Luck_The_Fakers_ific as they come but he's not a complete receiver either. Both of them are limited in route running

[Blake]

nope

take Bryant for example. he's as Luck_The_Fakers_Luck_The_Fakers_Luck_The_Fakers_Lu ck_The_Fakers_Luck_The_Fakers_Luck_The_Fakers_ific as they come but he's not a complete receiver either. Both of them are limited in route running

I had no reason to think Bryant is a complete receiver to begin with.

Since Welker is shredding everyone in his path, I have no reason not to believe Welker is as complete as they come.

[Monostradamus]

I have no reason not to believe Welker is as complete as they come.

Really? So you believe anything Calvin Johnson can do on a football field, Welker can do just as well?

[Blake]

Really? So you believe anything Calvin Johnson can do on a football field, Welker can do just as well?

Physically? Of course not, but if Welker is getting the job done, what difference does it make?

[Monostradamus]

Physically? Of course not

In other words, he's not as complete as they come.

[Blake]

In other words, he's not as complete as they come.

He's as complete as any average NFL #1 receiver comes.

Currently he's on pace to break Rice's record of 1848 yds. If/when Wes breaks the 1500 yard mark, by my count he'll be just the 9th guy to do it since 2000.

What more are you looking for from a wide receiver?

[Monostradamus]

He's as complete as any average NFL #1 receiver comes.

Well thank you for realizing how retarded it was to say he's as complete as they come.

Even so, could the Patriots ever call a fade route to him? The average NFL #1 receiver surely could be counted on to be at least decent at fade routes.

[Blake]

Well thank you for realizing how retarded it was to say he's as complete as they come.

They = average #1 wide receiver

They =/= one guy........English language rules imply that it never has, never will.

Wes is as complete as they come.


Even so, could the Patriots ever call a fade route to him? The average NFL #1 receiver surely could be counted on to be at least decent at fade routes.

irrelevant unless the Pats need a #1 WR to perform a fade route to be successful.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

Complete would mean Welker's a threat to score from outside of the RZ.

Is he?

[Blake]

Complete would mean Welker's a threat to score from outside of the RZ.

Is he?

Pretty sure Wes scored on his 99 yrd TD this year.

and lol last year 2 of CJ's 12 TDs were outside of the 23 yard line.

either way, where are you getting this defintion of complete receiver?

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

Which would have been one short of Welker's career total in that time.

Complete would mean able to do everything well.

Can Welker be as effective playing outside the hashes?

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

Career totals 19 to 4.

The guy without Brady has the 19.

Any other complete #1s have such a low total?

BTW, the RZ doesn't start at the 23. You can change it to the 40 if you like.

[Blake]

Complete would mean able to do everything well.

do me a favor and list all the WRs in the league that you think do everything well.

it would be great if you could also list in what ways they have productively been better than Welker this year. :tu


Can Welker be as effective playing outside the hashes?

several effective catches outside the hashes:

i_zmCPkJTGY

[Blake]

Career totals 19 to 4.

The guy without Brady has the 19.

Any other complete #1s have such a low total?

BTW, the RZ doesn't start at the 23. You can change it to the 40 if you like.

FTR, being a threat outside of the RZ is your own definition of being a complete WR.

If a 23 yard TD gives you that much more of an erection than a 19 yd TD, then by all means, do what you have to do to get it up.

[JamStone]

Wes Welker is great and the passing game isn't the biggest problem for New England. But there is no doubt that a deep threat would help them tremendously.

You look at Welker's production and there's very little to be critical of. He produces. He makes catches, makes big plays, and scores. But a big time #1 receiver does all those things and more. A true #1 receiver makes the impossible catch when he's double covered to keep the chains moving. And the big plays downfield don't only provide for explosive and quick scoring plays but can also flip field position. A true #1 who is also a deep threat opens up the entire offense just by his presence and the mere threat of making a big play downfield, not just by his production. That opens up the run game and the middle of the field, and now short throws and screens to the tight ends and running backs that would go for 5-7 yards turn into 15-20 yard plays because the safeties are playing so far back. Once you open that run game and that short passing game, the QB doesn't have to throw it 45-50 times a game or force tough passes in narrow windows, which also positively affects the turnover game.

Hard to criticize what Welker has done so far this season. He's been great. But there are added dimensions a true #1 receiver has that Welker doesn't necessarily bring to the table.

[Monostradamus]

FTR, being a threat outside of the RZ is your own definition of being a complete WR.

:lmao don't act like you haven't been cherry picking numbers to fit Welker into your own "complete receiver" definition.

[Monostradamus]

So it's 3rd and 2 with 10 seconds left in the Super Bowl. No timeouts. Your team has to score a TD to win. There's time for one pass into the end zone before you try a 4th down run.

On that 3rd down the head coach calls a fade route. A VERY COMMON route that gets run every Sunday in the NFL. It's clearly a crucial route for ANY BIG TIME RECEIVER TO KNOW HOW TO RUN because a properly run fade route always means your team scores a touchdown.

You have to pick one receiver out of anybody in the NFL to run that fade route to win the Super Bowl. How many receivers do you pick ahead of Wes Welker?

[Monostradamus]

But there are added dimensions a true #1 receiver has that Welker doesn't necessarily bring to the table.

No there's not, look at his numbers, he's clearly the best. Saying Welker isn't the best receiver in the league is just as stupid as saying Allen Iverson wasn't the best player in the league during his prime because he scored the most points!

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

I completely forgot about Duane Starks in NE. WTF happened there?

[Blake]

:lmao don't act like you haven't been cherry picking numbers to fit Welker into your own "complete receiver" definition.

Right, until the NFL comes out with an official one, I have my own complete receiver definition.

I'm just here asking why you are crying about Brady over-relying on Welker when it's obviously working.

Plenty of other things about the Pats for you to cry about, tbh.

[Blake]

So it's 3rd and 2 with 10 seconds left in the Super Bowl. No timeouts. Your team has to score a TD to win. There's time for one pass into the end zone before you try a 4th down run.

On that 3rd down the head coach calls a fade route. A VERY COMMON route that gets run every Sunday in the NFL. It's clearly a crucial route for ANY BIG TIME RECEIVER TO KNOW HOW TO RUN because a properly run fade route always means your team scores a touchdown.

You have to pick one receiver out of anybody in the NFL to run that fade route to win the Super Bowl. How many receivers do you pick ahead of Wes Welker?

:lmao cherry picking situations. Plenty of average/incomplete receivers in this league can run fades better than Wes.

DLF has already mentioned that Wes gets most of his TDs inside the 20 rather than outside.

So since we have gotten to the Super Bowl with Wes as the #1, the coach would be stupid not to go ahead and run the usual plays that get him open for the TD instead of a fade.

[Blake]

No there's not, look at his numbers, he's clearly the best. Saying Welker isn't the best receiver in the league is just as stupid as saying Allen Iverson wasn't the best player in the league during his prime because he scored the most points!

AI is a future hall of famer that won an MVP the same year he led his team to the Finals.

great comparison. :tu

[Monostradamus]

:lmao cherry picking situations. Plenty of average/incomplete receivers in this league can run fades better than Wes.

In other words, Welker isn't as complete as you say he is.

[Monostradamus]

DLF has already mentioned that Wes gets most of his TDs inside the 20 rather than outside.

And have you seen the TD totals he's put up in his career? Not exactly complete receiver quality.

[Blake]

In other words, Welker isn't as complete as you say he is.

He's as complete as they come.

[Blake]

And have you seen the TD totals he's put up in his career? Not exactly complete receiver quality.

He hasn't really been WR #1 until this year.

....and that's what we are talking about......this year.

He's #1 across the NFL receiving stat board and you are whining about it.

lol hilarious, tbh

[Monostradamus]

Oh what a coincidence. Brady doesnt lock into Welker all game long and the Patriots dominate.

[Bill_Brasky]

Oh what a coincidence. Brady doesnt lock into Welker all game long and the Patriots dominate.

I wouldn't throw at Revis either.

[Monostradamus]

You'd think a receiver as complete as they come would be up to the challenge. I'm just glad Brady stopped forcing balls to him and instead targeted the actual best receiver on the team, Gronkowski.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

:cry but forcing it to Welker was working so well :cry

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Oh and anyone who challenged my claim that Gronk was one of if not the best TE in the NFL can suck a dick tbh

[stretch]

So since we have gotten to the Super Bowl with Wes as the #1

really? when was that?

[Blake]

You'd think a receiver as complete as they come would be up to the challenge. I'm just glad Brady stopped forcing balls to him and instead targeted the actual best receiver on the team, Gronkowski.



Updated: November 11, 2011, 4:21 PM ET

Patriots quarterback Tom Brady's 2,703 passing yards are a Patriots record through eight games and put him on pace to shatter Dan Marino's single-season record of 5,084. With 20 touchdowns, he's halfway to just the sixth 40-touchdown season in NFL history.

Yet it's hard to escape the feeling that Brady has had a disappointing first half. Perhaps that's a reflection of the high bar he's set.

Uncharacteristically, Brady has had problems with interceptions. His 10 picks are the most by a Patriots quarterback through eight games since 22-year-old Drew Bledsoe in 1994.

Consider that Brady is already four interceptions shy of matching his career high. Last season, he threw just four picks all season. He equaled that total in the Bills game alone.

So what has led to Brady's problem with picks? Some of the most logical explanations are refuted by the numbers.

Given his high-volume reliance on Wes Welker, one might assume that Brady has been caught forcing passes to his favorite target. However, the opposite is true. The turnovers are the product of spreading the ball around. Consider that Brady's 10 interceptions have come while targeting seven different receivers. Deion Branch, Aaron Hernandez and Rob Gronkowski have each been the target for two interceptions.

http://espn.go.com/boston/nfl/story/_/id/7219666/the-new-england-patriots-nfl-schedule-their-side


:cry but forcing it to Welker was working so well :cry

:depressed

[Blake]

really? when was that?

in Mono's crazy ass situation where a fade is somehow required to win a Super Bowl.

[stretch]

in Mono's crazy ass situation where a fade is somehow required to win a Super Bowl.

k, just wanted to make sure you arent retarded enough to actually think Welker > Moss in the 07 campaign

[stretch]

He's #1 across the NFL receiving stat board and you are whining about it.

you mean across 2 categories? granted, they are two of the more important categories (receptions and yards), but its far from being #1 across the board, as others have higher YAC, more TDs, and a better average per reception.

[Blake]

you mean across 2 categories? granted, they are two of the more important categories (receptions and yards), but its far from being #1 across the board, as others have higher YAC, more TDs, and a better average per reception.

for the point made, it was easier to type "across the board" than lay out where he ranks in every single category.

Other than YPR, I'm guessing Welker is at least top 5 in each one.

For Pats fan, that's still not good enough. :depressed

[stretch]

for the point made, it was easier to type "across the board" than lay out where he ranks in every single category.

Other than YPR, I'm guessing Welker is at least top 5 in each one.

For Pats fan, that's still not good enough. :depressed

I think pretty much every Pats fan loves Welker, they just don't love it when Brady locks on Welker forcing bad passes to him, and doesnt utilize the other weapons at his disposal, such as Gronkowski.

[Blake]

I think pretty much every Pats fan loves Welker, they just don't love it when Brady locks on Welker forcing bad passes to him, and doesnt utilize the other weapons at his disposal, such as Gronkowski.

what bad passes have been thrown to Welker this year?

the crying from Pats fan over misconceptions continues to make me lol

[stretch]

what bad passes have been thrown to Welker this year?

the crying from Pats fan over misconceptions continues to make me lol

So you don't think that Brady has ever had a tendency to lock in and force passes to Welker?

[Blake]

So you don't think that Brady has ever had a tendency to lock in and force passes to Welker?

Not enough for me to notice.

Definitely not enough to cry about it.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

So the only two people in this thread who think Brady doesn't force passes to Welker are Tech fans.

What a coincidence.

[stretch]

So the only two people in this thread who think Brady doesn't force passes to Welker are Tech fans.

What a coincidence.

Definitely a massive coincedence.

[Bill_Brasky]

Really? After all the dick sucking you do of Gronk because he came out of Arizona, you're gonna try to call people out?

Too funny.

[Bill_Brasky]

Btw the Texans are doing just fine without Andre Johnson on the field.


:cry Look what happens when the Texans don't force balls to Andre :cry

[Blake]

So the only two people in this thread who think Brady doesn't force passes to Welker are Tech fans.

What a coincidence.


Given his high-volume reliance on Wes Welker, one might assume that Brady has been caught forcing passes to his favorite target. However, the opposite is true. The turnovers are the product of spreading the ball around. Consider that Brady's 10 interceptions have come while targeting seven different receivers. Deion Branch, Aaron Hernandez and Rob Gronkowski have each been the target for two interceptions.

http://espn.go.com/boston/nfl/story/...ule-their-side

I count three people that don't, one of them not a Tech fan.

[Blake]

Btw the Texans are doing just fine without Andre Johnson on the field.


:cry Look what happens when the Texans don't force balls to Andre :cry

but but but but but but who will catch the game winning fade in the Super Bowl? Kevin Walter?

[Monostradamus]

That just says Brady doesnt throw picks when he targets Welker. How bout you find out how many times Welker is targeted on failed 3rd down conversions because thats where i constantly see Beady forcing it to Welker.

[Blake]

That just says Brady doesnt throw picks when he targets Welker. How bout you find out how many times Welker is targeted on failed 3rd down conversions because thats where i constantly see Beady forcing it to Welker.

you are the one sobbing about this not me.

How bout you prove that you have a real reason to sob

[Bill_Brasky]

That just says Brady doesnt throw picks when he targets Welker. How bout you find out how many times Welker is targeted on failed 3rd down conversions because thats where i constantly see Beady forcing it to Welker.

BTW how is that even Welker's fault? Brady is the one throwing the passes.

[Blake]

BTW how is that even Welker's fault? Brady is the one throwing the passes.

If the Pats are killing it on offense, how is it even a fault?

[Monostradamus]

:lmao nobody is blaming Welker. He can't help it that Brady forces passes that he isn't physically capable or talented enough to make a play on. Nobody is against Welker. We just pointed out the simple fact that Welker isn't a complete receiver or good enough to be the #1 guy on this Pats team if they want to win a title. Tech fans interpreted that ass some attack on their ass buddy. Nobody hates Welker or blames him, we just arent retarded enough to turn a blind eye to his limitations.

[Bill_Brasky]

:lmao nobody is blaming Welker. He can't help it that Brady forces passes that he isn't physically capable or talented enough to make a play on. Nobody is against Welker. We just pointed out the simple fact that Welker isn't a complete receiver or good enough to be the #1 guy on this Pats team if they want to win a title. Tech fans interpreted that ass some attack on their ass buddy. Nobody hates Welker or blames him, we just arent retarded enough to turn a blind eye to his limitations.

"catching a bunch of useless 5 yard passes"


Yup, you love Welker so much!

:lmao moving the goal posts when your retarded takes get owned.

[stretch]

Looks like both sides are exaggerating the argument, tbh.

Brady definitely does have his moments where he locks into Welker, forces a tough pass, and completely misses wide open guys downfield. But I'm not sure it happens as often as Mono and DoK suggest.

At the same time, anyone who thinks Welker is a #1 on the level of guys like Andre Johnson or Fitzgerald or someone like that, is crazy. He certainly can be a #1 reciever in the right system, which the Pats have a system where he can be just that, but he definitely won't work as a true #1 in a system that relies on stretching the field, although he can be a perfect compliment to a #1 in such a system, as shown in the 2007 season.

[stretch]

We just pointed out the simple fact that Welker isn't a complete receiver or good enough to be the #1 guy on this Pats team if they want to win a title.

He isn't good enough to be a #1 guy on an all-offense no-defense team hoping to win a championship (which exactly is what this Patriots team is), but then again, not many receivers are. But after seeing the Pats win 3 championships with mediocre talent at receiver such as Troy Brown and Deion Branch, I'd say he certainly is capable of being a #1 guy in the right situation, as Welker on a bad day is >>> Brown and Branch on their best days.

[Bill_Brasky]

Stretch, with the rare "everybody calm the fuck down" goods.


Tbh I'm just having fun in this thread and interpret it as Patfan placing blame early in the season for the inevitable playoff flameout.

[stretch]

Tbh I'm just having fun in this thread and interpret it as Patfan placing blame early in the season for the inevitable playoff flameout.

Strange thing is, no one in the AFC really sticks out as being ahead of the pack. Pittsburgh is solid but clearly in decline. New England cant defend anyone, but can score effectively and still has Tom Brady. Baltimore should be the best, but they still have Joe Wacko.

Doesn't really matter, because barring some meltdown or injuries, its hard to find anyone who will beat Green Bay. I actually hope they go undefeated and win the championship, just so the 72 Dolphin faggots can go off themselves.

[Axe Murderer]

stretch

do you know what the weather forecast is for tomorrow?

[stretch]

stretch

do you know what the weather forecast is for tomorrow?

no idea

but if you see stoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ops be sure to get dooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooown

[Axe Murderer]

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[DUNCANownsKOBE]

He isn't good enough to be a #1 guy on an all-offense no-defense team hoping to win a championship (which exactly is what this Patriots team is), but then again, not many receivers are. But after seeing the Pats win 3 championships with mediocre talent at receiver such as Troy Brown and Deion Branch, I'd say he certainly is capable of being a #1 guy in the right situation, as Welker on a bad day is >>> Brown and Branch on their best days.
The Patriots won championships with Troy Brown and Deion Branch before it became a must to have an elite passing offense to win the superbowl. Even though it's only a few years the game has changed a ton and having a great passing offense is more important than anything else these days.

[Blake]

:lmao nobody is blaming Welker. He can't help it that Brady forces passes that he isn't physically capable or talented enough to make a play on. Nobody is against Welker. We just pointed out the simple fact that Welker isn't a complete receiver or good enough to be the #1 guy on this Pats team if they want to win a title. Tech fans interpreted that ass some attack on their ass buddy. Nobody hates Welker or blames him, we just arent retarded enough to turn a blind eye to his limitations.

I'm still just wondering why you are whining and crying about him being the #1 guy when it's obviously working.

Still no answer. Still see crying. and whining.

[Blake]

The Patriots won championships with Troy Brown and Deion Branch before it became a must to have an elite passing offense to win the superbowl. Even though it's only a few years the game has changed a ton and having a great passing offense is more important than anything else these days.

Pats in 2011: 326 passing yard per game without deh fade route.

#1 in NFL

you're being a dipshit.

[stretch]

The Patriots won championships with Troy Brown and Deion Branch before it became a must to have an elite passing offense to win the superbowl. Even though it's only a few years the game has changed a ton and having a great passing offense is more important than anything else these days.

I can't neccesarily argue with this.

[Blake]

I can't neccesarily argue with this.

Nobody is arguing with it.

[Bill_Brasky]

A lot is made out of the importance of a great passing game but the Packers looked completely different and a million times better when they discovered James** Starks near the end of last season. He should get a lot of credit as well.

[Blake]

Lol frank starks

I think you mean tony

[Pelicans78]

One dimensional passing teams still can't win a Super Bowl.

[Pelicans78]

I would argue for Jimmy Graham since he's very explosive and athletic downfield, but his hands, route running, and blocking need work. Still, its only his 3rd year playing football. His potential is limitless.

[TIMMYtoZO]

I would argue for Jimmy Graham since he's very explosive and athletic downfield, but his hands, route running, and blocking need work. Still, its only his 3rd year playing football. His potential is limitless.

The same can be said for Jake Ballard. It is amazing how everyone underrates this kid. He is already a top 10 tight end and will be a top 3 by next season.

[Monostradamus]

I'm still just wondering why you are whining and crying about him being the #1 guy when it's obviously working.

I know as a Tech fan a 6-3 record would have you guys felching each other's assholes in delight, but that really isn't impressive for the Patriots, especially when the offense has been less than stellar in those losses and a couple of those wins too.

[Blake]

I know as a Tech fan a 6-3 record would have you guys felching each other's assholes in delight, but that really isn't impressive for the Patriots, especially when the offense has been less than stellar in those losses and a couple of those wins too.

Point to a specific game where forcing the ball into Welker was the problem so we can give some meaning to your tears.

[Bill_Brasky]

I know as a Tech fan a 6-3 record would have you guys felching each other's assholes in delight, but that really isn't impressive for the Patriots, especially when the offense has been less than stellar in those losses and a couple of those wins too.

Weren't the Pats 14-2 last year and lost their first playoff game?

Meanwhile, the Packers squeaked in at the last second and won it all.

[vander]

Pats gonna win the SB

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Meh, Tom Brady was just as good during the regular season last year if not better, and the defense by no means looked good last year but it led the NFL in turnovers and had somewhat of an identity.

Tom Brady's last good playoff game was against Jacksonville in 2007. Until he shows he can still play at a high level in the playoffs, the Pats winning the superbowl is a huge question mark.

[Blake]

lol only 4 receivers caught passes against the eagles

[lefty]

Meh, Tom Brady was just as good during the regular season last year if not better, and the defense by no means looked good last year but it led the NFL in turnovers and had somewhat of an identity.

Tom Brady's last good playoff game was against Jacksonville in 2007. Until he shows he can still play at a high level in the playoffs, the Pats winning the superbowl is a huge question mark.

Yup