Who is the biggest UNDERACHIEVER: Shaq or LBJ?

[LkrFan]

As gifted as LBJ is, it has to be Shaq. I appreciated his contributions to 3 rings when he was a Laker, but I'm greedy. We should have had at least 5 with him and Kobe on the same roster.

LBJ's book isn't nearly closed yet, but if he doesn't get at least 3 with Wade and Bosh, I may change my mind.

Thoughts?

[Giuseppe]

Just be grateful Kobe had the vision & wherewithal to run Daddy off. Otherwise we'd a never gotten the last two.

[lefty]

Kobe

[LkrFan]

Kobe

Not an option is this thread. He arguably maximized his talent moreso than any HOFer in NBA history. He rarely finishes games with anything less than an empty clip.

[LkrFan]

Just be grateful Kobe had the vision & wherewithal to run Daddy off. Otherwise we'd a never gotten the last two.

What pisses me off is if he had 1/2 of Kobe's work ethic, he'd be GOAT. Easily.

He'll look back on his career with a ton of regret.

[pass1st]

To put this in perspective: Shaq could have been in better shape and trained harder.....in his prime. He wasn't even trying to be the best center in the league, he just was the best center. If he continued to develop his game throughout his career, he would have won more with LAL and I would say 7-8 rings by retirement would be feasible.

LBJ is already in excellent physical shape and is improving, he's trying to achieve but he is just lost in what role he can play. He can't lead for shit, so he just has to accept a Pippen role.

[Nathan89]

Shaq carried Kobe to three rings.

[pass1st]

Shaq carried Kobe to three rings.

Could have carried him to five.

[Stalin]

lebron needs to accept his pippen role, for the heat to start winning rings, enough fade away three pointers from leChoke

[pass1st]

'sup Stalin, what happened to the Soviet Union?

[LkrFan]

Shaq carried Kobe to three rings.

If that were true it would be:

Shaq: 5
Kobe: 4

:rolleyes

[LkrFan]

Could have carried him to five.

You can't be serious. If you are, GTFO with that nonsense.

[ElNono]

6lQW-FWMcBo

[LkrFan]

6lQW-FWMcBo

Now that was funny. So is this:

Kobe: 5 (not done)
Shaq: 4 (done)

:downspin:

[ElNono]

Kobe = done. Retired by no other than the Puerto Rican wonder...

[BoricuaCJA]

Kobe = done. Retired by no other than the Puerto Rican wonder...
:hat

[Jacob1983]

Lebron can't even accept the Pippen role because Bosh and Wade were better under pressure in the Finals than him. Lebron should just be Horace Grant. :lol

[Hooks]

As gifted as LBJ is, it has to be Shaq. I appreciated his contributions to 3 rings when he was a Laker, but I'm greedy. We should have had at least 5 with him and Kobe on the same roster.



LA could've easily had 4+ if it weren't for Kobe shooting them out of the Finals in 2004. Kobe thought he was the MVP of LA and tried to take over as the leader of the Lakers causing them to lose. He single handedly shot them out of the Finals, if he had just given the ball to the true leader of the Lakers they would've won.

I honestly don't know what Kobe was thinking then, I mean Shaq was drawing double and triple teams nearly every single play and still scoring on them at will, meanwhile Kobe was getting dominated by Prince who Ginobili would destroy one year later.

'04 Finals stats:

Shaq vs Kobe

Shaq-43 MPG 63% FG, 11 RPG, 27 PPG

Kobe-46 MPG 38% FG, 3 RPG, 4 APG, 4 TO's

[LkrFan]

Lebron can't even accept the Pippen role because Bosh and Wade were better under pressure in the Finals than him. Lebron should just be Horace Grant. :lol

:lmao

[m>s]

MJ is the all-time biggest underachiever imho

[Giuseppe]

Kobe = done. Retired by no other than the Puerto Rican wonder...

...& I invented him.

[m>s]

as the #1 or #2 of the team

MJ: 6

the old shitbag Kobe: 5

[Giuseppe]

the old shitbag

I'm a trend setter.

I set trends.

[NRHector]

Not an option is this thread. He arguably maximized his talent moreso than any HOFer in NBA history. He rarely finishes games with anything less than an empty clip.:lol yeah with the help of the refs,

[Giuseppe]

^Only pussies & assholes blame the officiating.

[NRHector]

^Only pussies & assholes blame the officiating.so which one are you?

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

He rarely finishes games with anything less than an empty clip.
HGoxIvuPtmo

[Giuseppe]

^Good morning, darling.

P.S., darling:::your Nash quit as well. You've nary room.

[NRHector]

HGoxIvuPtmowas that the season that he went on national radio crying to be traded or was the next one?

[Giuseppe]

was that the season that he went on national radio crying to be traded or was the next one?

Your Rodman did likewise. You've nary room.

[NRHector]

Your Rodman did likewise. You've nary room.
Rodman was not the leader or the franchise player of any team

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

was that the season that he went on national radio crying to be traded or was the next one?
The next one tbh

[Giuseppe]

Rodman was not the leader or the franchise player of any team

That's neither here nor there. Rodman sabotaged your team in the middle of a playoff run as a calcuated act of vengeance against the team & Robinson for attempting to proselytize him.

You've no room. I got ya, daddy-O.

[Giuseppe]

The next one tbh

I got you as well by those little short hairs, sassafras:::your Nash didn't like Porter so Nash quit, refused to put forth an honest day's work & effort for his pay. Yeah, Nash quit, just like that. Made my day. Gave me a fresh foothold from which to launch my many & varied diatribes.

Nash quit. Big shot. White man from town quit.

Lunch?

[NRHector]

That's neither here nor there. Rodman sabotaged your team in the middle of a playoff run as a calcuated act of vengeance against the team & Robinson for attempting to proselytize him.

You've no room. I got ya, daddy-O.and what was Kobe reason for quitting on his team? Stay with your old trick of repeating posts you're only good at that

[Giuseppe]

and what was Kobe reason for quitting on his team?

Because Kobe is spoiled, petty, small and short sighted.

I bear my stains & crosses in public. I've no problem with that. It's my religion.

Everyone else will do likewise.

[baseline bum]

I know this is a troll thread, but it's laughable that there really are people who do consider a career with 4 titles, 6 trips to the Finals, 1 MVP (should really be 3 tbh), and 3 Finals MVPs to be an underachievement.

[pass1st]

I know this is a troll thread, but it's laughable that there really are people who do consider a career with 4 titles, 6 trips to the Finals, 1 MVP (should really be 3 tbh), and 3 Finals MVPs to be an underachievement.

Well this is vs LBJ, not people like AI

Shaq was gifted with size, strength and a surprising amount of speed when he was in better shape. He didn't have good work ethic and consequently never fulfilled his true potential, as unstoppable as he was, he had plenty of room to improve during his prime.

The fact that he achieved a lot already doesn't change the fact that he could have achieved a lot more. He didn't do everything he could have, so he underachieved.

LeBron improves season after season, works hard (post-2008) and is doing everything to achieve what he can. Thing is, he has zero capability in leading a team and is afraid of failure. Those are things he really can't do much about, except taking on the role he would be good at: as a Pippen. If he goes throughout his career trying to be a leader and failing, he will be the greater underachiever. He could be the GOAT 2nd banana, without having to worry about leading a team or taking the last shot, he will truly blossom.

For now, Shaq has more on his plate in underachieving. If LBJ doesn't ring by 30, then the tables turn.

[LnGrrrR]

Shaq has rings, LBJ doesn't. Makes the answer pretty obvious to me.

[Giuseppe]

Neither guy makes his teammates better. In a league short of natural leaders, Shaq and James tend to standout. The leader of the team is the guy that will walk through the fire in the last five minutes. Shaq never attempted to do so, Lebron has. Therefore, I got with Shaq on this one.

Lakaluva

[DMC]

Now that was funny. So is this:

Kobe: 5 (not done)
Shaq: 4 (done)

:downspin:
So you have to steal another person's shitty shtick because your posts are so much more shitty that you cannot get any play.

Got it.

[DMC]

Neither guy makes his teammates better. In a league short of natural leaders, Shaq and James tend to standout. The leader of the team is the guy that will walk through the fire in the last five minutes. Shaq never attempted to do so, Lebron has. Therefore, I got with Shaq on this one.
Translation:

Shaq always played with someone who would not pass the ball at the end of games.

[Giuseppe]

Translation:

Shaq always played with someone who would not pass the ball at the end of games.

You couldn't trust him to make a free throw. Daddy was flawed.

[DMC]

You couldn't trust him to make a free throw. Daddy was flawed.
He's not the reason the Lakers lost in 2004. I don't recall Shaq flying back and forth from a Colorado court room between games.

[ElNono]

P.S., darling:::your Nash quit as well. You've nary room.


Your Rodman did likewise. You've nary room.

When 'seppe is in severe damage control, you know you struck a nerve... well done :tu

[baseline bum]

Shaq was gifted with size, strength and a surprising amount of speed when he was in better shape. He didn't have good work ethic and consequently never fulfilled his true potential, as unstoppable as he was, he had plenty of room to improve during his prime.


This is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever seen written on this forum. The guy had great footwork, had a nice baby hook, and completely overpowered everyone on the low block. What exactly did you want him to add? A three-point shot? I cannot believe Shaquille O'Neal of all players is being underrated. The only negatives to his game were guarding the pick and roll and shooting free throws. I know Laker fans are still butthurt about him forcing the trade to Miami, but cut the revisionist bullshit.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

I got you as well by those little short hairs, sassafras:::your Nash didn't like Porter so Nash quit, refused to put forth an honest day's work & effort for his pay. Yeah, Nash quit, just like that. Made my day. Gave me a fresh foothold from which to launch my many & varied diatribes.

Nash quit. Big shot. White man from town quit.

Lunch?
You say this as if I like Nash

[Giuseppe]

You say this as if I like Nash

It matters not. That's your team. You're responsible for them.

Act like somebody.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

I've said Nash quit idk how many times you senile old fuck you.

[pass1st]

This is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever seen written on this forum. The guy had great footwork, had a nice baby hook, and completely overpowered everyone on the low block. What exactly did you want him to add? A three-point shot? I cannot believe Shaquille O'Neal of all players is being underrated. The only negatives to his game were guarding the pick and roll and shooting free throws. I know Laker fans are still butthurt about him forcing the trade to Miami, but cut the revisionist bullshit.

His work ethic has always been criticized since his first championship. He could have stayed in better shape, continued to work on things (such as freethrows, which he DID improve temporarily) that needed room to improve and altered his game as his body aged.

The man could have done more than he did, as great as he is, he could have done more. This is in comparison to LBJ, I think you're blowing this way out of proportion. I'm nit-picking because I think LBJ is achieving what he can; his ceiling has been placed, it's either pippen or a ringless boxscore filler.

[Giuseppe]

I've said Nash quit idk how many times you senile old fuck you.

Then we're in agreement.

Get your clothes off & bend over.

[Giuseppe]

His work ethic has always been criticized since his first championship. He could have stayed in better shape, continued to work on things (such as freethrows, which he DID improve temporarily) that needed room to improve and altered his game as his body aged.

The man could have done more than he did, as great as he is, he could have done more.

I don't like Pass. I've made that quite clear hereabouts, but, he's right here. Daddy left something in the basement.

He just did.

[Proxy]

Tough call. I would say Shaq for this reason: had he stayed in shape, his ceiling potential may have catapulted him to one of the top 2 players ever with MJ... but he was lazy and slow at times. His personality limits his potential. He is a top 10 player ever. Should be top 5.


Lebron on the other hand, is at his max potential in a physical sense. He is just weak minded, so he chokes. That isn't something you can change by practicing in the gym. That's a personal thing that most likely has nothing to do with the sport. He is the most intimidating and athletically gifted specimen to ever play the game... doesn't translate to being the best player. Mentality is way more important than physical attributes.

A prime example of this is Kobe vs Lebron. In a video game world, Lebron would destroy Kobe. Lebron has a size advantage, better vertical leap, and is just athletically superior. In the real world, Lebron still has all these things over Kobe, but Kobe has the mindset and intelligence. This is what ultimately separates the MJs, Kobes, Magics, Birds, Duncans, etc.... from the Lebrons, Malones, Robinsons, Ewings... etc. Never really had anything to do with athletic ability... that only effected their style of play tbh.

[LkrFan]

HGoxIvuPtmo

He came out guns a blazing in that game and the Lakers were still down double digits. PJ drew up a game plan in the 2nd half to get marquee players like Kwame involved. We know how that turned out. :downspin:

[DMC]

Tough call. I would say Shaq for this reason: had he stayed in shape, his ceiling potential may have catapulted him to one of the top 2 players ever with MJ... but he was lazy and slow at times. His personality limits his potential. He is a top 10 player ever. Should be top 5.


Lebron on the other hand, is at his max potential in a physical sense. He is just weak minded, so he chokes. That isn't something you can change by practicing in the gym. That's a personal thing that most likely has nothing to do with the sport. He is the most intimidating and athletically gifted specimen to ever play the game... doesn't translate to being the best player. Mentality is way more important than physical attributes.

A prime example of this is Kobe vs Lebron. In a video game world, Lebron would destroy Kobe. Lebron has a size advantage, better vertical leap, and is just athletically superior. In the real world, Lebron still has all these things over Kobe, but Kobe has the mindset and intelligence. This is what ultimately separates the MJs, Kobes, Magics, Birds, Duncans, etc.... from the Lebrons, Malones, Robinsons, Ewings... etc. Never really had anything to do with athletic ability... that only effected their style of play tbh.
The mindset is part and parcel with the ability. Otherwise he's just another overconfident player. Kobe's confidence comes from knowing his strengths and how to use them. Lebron doesn't have much of a jump shot, even though he shoots them all the time. He doesn't have any real post moves so he's relegated to putting his head down and attacking the rim. His speed and quickness often gets him to where he needs to be, and this athleticism puts him above the rim when he decides to go there, but he's got glaring weaknesses that everyone but Lebron sees (like the 30' jumpers and post play).

Also, often times Kobe's confidence has hurt the team, because he trusts himself more than he trusts his teammates in just about any given situation.

[LkrFan]

I know this is a troll thread, but it's laughable that there really are people who do consider a career with 4 titles, 6 trips to the Finals, 1 MVP (should really be 3 tbh), and 3 Finals MVPs to be an underachievement.

Not a troll thread. I honestly believe that Shaq should have achieved more. Given his God-given talent, his physique, and the fact he ALWAYS played with either an All Star Guard or a future HOFer guard, yes he underachieved.

Orlando: Penny was a beast. Had he stayed there and grew with that loaded team, no doubt in my mind MJ would not have 6 rings. He bounced MJ from the offs then MJ went out and got Rodman. Shaq then fled the EC to LA with his tail between his legs. :lol

LA: As good as Penny was, Kobe was even better. They 3peated, but should have won more when you have the best two players capable of giving you 40+ apiece any given night. He ate his way out of LA and soured his relationship with Kobe, Dr. Buss, the Laker fans leading to his trade.

Miami: Wade (and his FT stroke of genius) carried him to his final ring. 15 Strong was loaded and if not for Dallas choke job it might be Kobe: 5, Shaq: 3.

Cavs: "Win one for the King" How did that turn out? :lol

Beantown: Desperate to try to catch Kobe, he signed on with Boston of all teams. They were loaded and he still couldn't get it done.

Kobe OTOH was given studs like Kwame, Luke, Smush, Cook, 86-year old Brian Grant, inconsistent Odom, etc., and he still won more rings than Shaq. Give Kobe competent talent and he closes the dealPERIOD. Shaq? Not so much. There was never a year whereas he didn't have an All Star by his side. NEVER! There is no excuse for him not having more rings. NONE and he knows it.

"The Big Underachiever"

[LkrFan]

Translation:

Shaq always played with someone who would not pass the ball at the end of games.

Even when he played with Nash? :lol

PS: Shaq didn't want the ball in his hands at the end of the game due to his Inability to shoot 'em.

Try hardER. :downspin:

[LkrFan]

I got you as well by those little short hairs, sassafras:::your Nash didn't like Porter so Nash quit, refused to put forth an honest day's work & effort for his pay. Yeah, Nash quit, just like that. Made my day. Gave me a fresh foothold from which to launch my many & varied diatribes.

Nash quit. Big shot. White man from town quit.

Lunch?

:lmao

[LkrFan]

Shaq has rings, LBJ doesn't. Makes the answer pretty obvious to me.

Thanks to Kobe and Wade. For details, see my reply to baselinebum. Shaq always had good teams. But yet in still, he'll tie this fact to his grave:

Kobe: 5
Shaq: 4

Or...

Kobe: 5
Shaq/KG/PP/Ray/Rhonda as teammates: 0

UBUNTU! :downspin:

[DMC]

Try hardER. :downspin:
I got my point across. Ruffled a few piss colored feathers. That's good enough.

[DMC]

Thanks to Kobe and Wade. For details, see my reply to baselinebum. Shaq always had good teams. But yet in still, he'll tie this fact to his grave:

Kobe: 5
Shaq: 4

Or...

Kobe: 5
Shaq/KG/PP/Ray/Rhonda as teammates: 0

UBUNTU! :downspin:

Lebron also had Wade.

You're not very good at this.

[ElNono]

:downspin: that shit

[Giuseppe]

Bend over. I'll :downspin: that fuckin' shit.

[ElNono]

Bend over. I'll :downspin: that fuckin' shit.

I can mindlessly repeat stuff too, tee hee

[Giuseppe]

Bend over. I'll :downspin: that fuckin' shit.

I can mindlessly repeat stuff too, tee hee

Get off your fuckin' high horse, El.

[pass1st]

http://www.faniq.com/images/blog/f53e1247f534c1ad5c0a9d66d083f7aa.jpg

[ElNono]

Get off your fuckin' high horse, El.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_RjVscSWW_oY/S9i5tKiaiuI/AAAAAAAAAJk/Esv1LgrBDW4/s1600/high_horse.jpg

[LkrFan]

This is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever seen written on this forum. The guy had great footwork, had a nice baby hook, and completely overpowered everyone on the low block. What exactly did you want him to add? A three-point shot? I cannot believe Shaquille O'Neal of all players is being underrated. The only negatives to his game were guarding the pick and roll and shooting free throws. I know Laker fans are still butthurt about him forcing the trade to Miami, but cut the revisionist bullshit.

How about a reliable FT stroke? I bet he left 5,000 points at the charity stripe.

[LkrFan]

All great players trust themselves over their teammates.

"If it was a game 7 I would have never passed to Kerr or Paxon."

- MJ

Magic could have dumped it into Kareem but he trusted his own sky hook that night.

Duncan would prefer to shoot a three pointer to beat the Suns, or a falling down twenty footer, prior to .4, before he would kick it to Manu. I guess he dont share your sentiments on Manu being only second to MJ in the clutch factor.

QFT. :toast

[LkrFan]

Lebron also had Wade.

You're not very good at this.

This thread isn't about Wade. Try hardER.:downspin:

[LkrFan]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_RjVscSWW_oY/S9i5tKiaiuI/AAAAAAAAAJk/Esv1LgrBDW4/s1600/high_horse.jpg

:lmao

[DMC]

All great players trust themselves over their teammates.

It's a statement based on a gradient, probably over your head.


"If it was a game 7 I would have never passed to Kerr or Paxon."

- MJ

Now you care what MJ says?


Magic could have dumped it into Kareem but he trusted his own sky hook that night.

Get your learn on. There's a difference between a decision to take the open shot with 5 seconds left in the game vs the decision to shoot the ball with 3 defenders on you and 3 open teammates, with time to pass, at the end of the game.

It's obvious you are trying to marginalize Kobe's selfish play, but it's a wasted effort.


Duncan would prefer to shoot a three pointer to beat the Suns, or a falling down twenty footer, prior to .4, before he would kick it to Manu.

Seeing how Manu just kicked to a wide open Tim with no more time to decide, I don't see how passing back into triple coverage on a smaller guard would have been prudent.

Meanwhile you have this shit:

MThR2YyW7j8

Good thing Artest was there.


I guess he dont share your sentiments on Manu being only second to MJ in the clutch factor.

He does. I've spoken to him. He would rather have Manu taking that 3.

[LnGrrrR]

Shaq: 4
LBJ: 0

Cmon Laker fans, this one should be easy for you, given all the 5>4 talk

[pass1st]

Shaq: 4
LBJ: 0

Cmon Laker fans, this one should be easy for you, given all the 5>4 talk

5>4 means a better player, I think

Saying Shaq underachieved is saying he would have gotten more rings ontop of his four than LBJ would have gotten throughout his entire career.

[LnGrrrR]

How many players have gotten at least four rings in the history of the sport?

Ok, now compare that to how many players have gotten zero rings.

Makes the answer pretty easy.

[NRHector]

How many players have gotten at least four rings in the history of the sport?

Ok, now compare that to how many players have gotten zero rings.

Makes the answer pretty easy.:rollin I see what you did there

[pass1st]

How many players have gotten at least four rings in the history of the sport?

Ok, now compare that to how many players have gotten zero rings.

Makes the answer pretty easy.

It's only LBJ vs Shaq, though.

Shaq's ceiling is a few dozen stories higher than LBJ's. He could have gotten 7-8 rings while LBJ is pretty much set on 3-4 if he plays Pippen starting next season.

[DMC]

5>4 means a better player, I think

Saying Shaq underachieved is saying he would have gotten more rings ontop of his four than LBJ would have gotten throughout his entire career.
Since LBJ's career is far from over, there's no way to tell.

[pass1st]

Since LBJ's career is far from over, there's no way to tell.

A logical estimate. He needs to prop up another elite player, like Wade, in order to win. Since his success will depend on another's success, 3-4 is a pretty good guess.

[Spur_Fanatic]

LBJ. Shaq won stuff at least.

[nowhereman523]

As gifted as LBJ is, it has to be Shaq. I appreciated his contributions to 3 rings when he was a Laker, but I'm greedy. We should have had at least 5 with him and Kobe on the same roster.

LBJ's book isn't nearly closed yet, but if he doesn't get at least 3 with Wade and Bosh, I may change my mind.

Thoughts?

This is a joke, right?

Kobe Bryant wasn't exactly helping Shaq win championships. He probably cost him at least 2.

[Giuseppe]

^The proof is in the pudding:::Kobe won two without Daddy.

Daddy only won one without Kobe.

[nowhereman523]

^The proof is in the pudding:::Kobe won two without Daddy.

Daddy only won one without Kobe.

Shaq won 3 rings as the man. Put any competent shooting guard with him and they win. No way Kobe wins any of those 3 rings without Shaq.

What pudding?

[Sean Cagney]

Just be grateful Kobe had the vision & wherewithal to run Daddy off. Otherwise we'd a never gotten the last two.

And you wold not have the first three without him, so take the last two and give the first three away and what do you got? ONE LESS............ :wow:lol
How many players have gotten at least four rings in the history of the sport?

Ok, now compare that to how many players have gotten zero rings.

Makes the answer pretty easy.

Good post!

[LkrFan]

Shaq won 3 rings as the man. Put any competent shooting guard with him and they win. No way Kobe wins any of those 3 rings without Shaq.

What pudding?

How about HOF bound Ray Allen? How'd that turn out? :lol

Who's troll are you BTW? :downspin:

[nowhereman523]

How about HOF bound Ray Allen? How'd that turn out? :lol

Who's troll are you BTW? :downspin:

In those 3 years, Shaq would have won with Ray Allen as his SG without a doubt. Probably would have won 5 or 6 championships overall. Would definitely have beat the Pistons.

Shaq as the man - 3
Kobe as the man - 2

[LkrFan]

In those 3 years, Shaq would have won with Ray Allen as his SG without a doubt. Probably would have won 5 or 6 championships.

Shaq as the man - 3
Kobe as the man - 2

Now you moving the goal post. :lol

Ok, I'll bite.

Kobe as "Robin" - 3
Shaq as "Robin" - 1

Let's go to Lederman's score card after we total it it up:

5>4. Kobe is the man. :toast

[LnGrrrR]

It's only LBJ vs Shaq, though.

Shaq's ceiling is a few dozen stories higher than LBJ's. He could have gotten 7-8 rings while LBJ is pretty much set on 3-4 if he plays Pippen starting next season.

Lebron's ceiling is only low because he keeps failing. Doesn't anyone remember LBJ was supposed to be the next Jordan, with a more physical toolset?

Everyone in this thread saying, "LBJ can't help that he's a weakminded pussy" and then blasting Shaq for not staying fit... uhm... whiskey tango foxtrot? You could use the same argument to say Shaq's ceiling is lower because he wasn't mentally prepared to dedicate himself the way all the greats do.

4 is greater than 0.

How many rings would Shaq have had to win to be just an achiever? 6? 7? 10?

[Giuseppe]

How many rings would Shaq have had to win to be just an achiever? 6? 7? 10?

At least more than Kobe.

tee, hee.

[Giuseppe]

Shaq as the man - 3
Kobe as the man - 2

Kobe: 5

Daddy: 4

[Giuseppe]

And you wold not have the first three without him, so take the last two and give the first three away and what do you got?

I'll take:::

Kobe: 5

the shit bag: 4

[Giuseppe]

Shaq won 3 rings as the man. Put any competent shooting guard with him and they win. No way Kobe wins any of those 3 rings without Shaq.

What pudding?

Kobe: 5

Daddy: 4

[m>s]

^The proof is in the pudding:::Kobe won two without Daddy.

Daddy only won one without Kobe.
Kobe won ZERO without Pau or Daddy though

[LkrFan]

Kobe won ZERO without Pau or Daddy though

...or Fisher. What's your point? :downspin:

[Giuseppe]

Kobe won ZERO without Pau or Daddy though

But, Pau couldn't win a single playoff game till Kobe took him in.

Kobe won two without Daddy. Daddy only won one without Kobe.

[JoeTait75]

LeBron improves season after season, works hard (post-2008) and is doing everything to achieve what he can.

I don't see any of this. I don't think he improves season after season, I don't think he works particularly hard and I don't think he's doing everything to achieve what he can.

[Nathan89]

:lmao Comparing Shaq's rings to Kobe's when Shaq is the reason he got the first three.

Also lets not act like Pau didn't deserve that finals mvp. Kobe should be stuck at one.

Post-shaq/pre-pau Kobe is the biggest underachiever. I mean how do miss the playoffs if you are "that good".

[nowhereman523]

:lmao Comparing Shaq's rings to Kobe's when Shaq is the reason he got the first three.

Also lets not act like Pau didn't deserve that finals mvp. Kobe should be stuck at one.

Post-shaq/pre-pau Kobe is the biggest underachiever. I mean how do miss the playoffs if you are "that good".

Yup.

Shaq -3
Kobe -2

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

lol losing after being up 3-1 and quitting on your team in a game 7

talk about under achieving

[Nathan89]

^
lol closer
lol clutch
lol leader

lol being called these things because you won four times as the 2nd option. Not even the 2nd option if you go by the TS% and some Lakerfans like that stat.

[Giuseppe]

lol losing after being up 3-1 and quitting on your team in a game 7

talk about under achieving

You've no room. Your Nash quit as well.

[Giuseppe]

^
lol closer
lol clutch
lol leader

lol being called these things because you won four times as the 2nd option. Not even the 2nd option if you go by the TS% and some Lakerfans like that stat.

Boiled down:::

Kobe: 5

the shit bag: 4

[Giuseppe]

:lmao Comparing Shaq's rings to Kobe's when Shaq is the reason he got the first three.

The proof is in the pudding:::Kobe won two without Daddy. Daddy only won one without Kobe.

[Nathan89]

Boiled down:::

Kobe: 5

the shit bag: 4

4 quarters is worth more than 5 dimes

:lol worried about system changes because Kobe/Lakers can't win on a fair playing field.


The proof is in the pudding:::Kobe won two without Daddy. Daddy only won one without Kobe.

Daddy never got a $100million skunk.

Is that also proof that D-Wade was better than Kobe because he won in 2006 and Kobe failed in 2004(because shaq was too old,fat,and out of shape).

Lakers should have just traded Kobe for D-wade.

[Giuseppe]

4 quarters is worth more than 5 dimes

:lol worried about system changes because Kobe/Lakers can't win on a fair playing field.



Daddy never got a $100million skunk.

Is that also proof that D-Wade was better than Kobe because he won in 2006 and Kobe failed in 2004(because shaq was too old,fat,and out of shape).

Lakers should have just traded Kobe for D-wade.

You do the quarters & dimes. I'm doin':::

Kobe: 5

the shit bag & Daddy: 4 a piece

I'd rather have Kobe and 5, than Wade and 1.

[Giuseppe]

:lol worried about system changes because Kobe/Lakers can't win on a fair playing field.

Yep.

I don't do fair.

It's my religion.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

You've no room. Your Nash quit as well.
Quitting in a game 7 is worse than any other quitting.

Game 7s are when legends are born. Kobe's two most infamous game 7s are quitting and going 6-24 from the field.

[Giuseppe]

Quitting in a game 7 is worse than any other quitting.

Game 7s are when legends are born. Kobe's two most infamous game 7s are quitting and going 6-24 from the field.

Uh, uh, none of that crapola. Your Nash quit. Just like MJ quit. Just like Kobe quit. Just like Pippen quit. The Spur's Rodman quit too. They each quit and they're all in the same boat.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

The fact you're comparing Kobe to a ringless pussy like Nash only proves my point.

[Giuseppe]

The fact you're comparing Kobe to a ringless pussy like Nash only proves my point.

You denigrating your own team will not put a stopper in my bottle, lover.

Nash quitPERIOD

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

I'm a Cavs fan. They're my team.

Just like you were a Suns fan prior to the Gasol trade.

[Giuseppe]

I'm a Cavs fan. They're my team.

Just like you were a Suns fan prior to the Gasol trade.

I'm still a Suns fan.

& your team is the SunsPERIOD

[nowhereman523]

If Michael Finley played with Shaq, would he be considered the 2nd greatest SG of all time? Probably. And he'd have more championships than Kobe.

[Giuseppe]

If

tee, hee.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

If Michael Finley played with Shaq, would he be considered the 2nd greatest SG of all time? Probably. And he'd have more championships than Kobe.
Tbh prime T-Mac and Shaq would have fuckin PILED UP championships

[Giuseppe]

would have

tee, hee.

[Killakobe81]

TMAc was a great player no doubt but the "lionizing" of him is ludicrous. I wish his back had stayed strong. He probably would of won as many titles as his cousin ... Vince. Dude is mad overrated. Amazing length, skill-set but something was "missing" upstairs in b-ball smarts I was never a big fan.

[pass1st]

Lebron's ceiling is only low because he keeps failing. Doesn't anyone remember LBJ was supposed to be the next Jordan, with a more physical toolset?

Everyone in this thread saying, "LBJ can't help that he's a weakminded pussy" and then blasting Shaq for not staying fit... uhm... whiskey tango foxtrot? You could use the same argument to say Shaq's ceiling is lower because he wasn't mentally prepared to dedicate himself the way all the greats do.

4 is greater than 0.

How many rings would Shaq have had to win to be just an achiever? 6? 7? 10?

Shaq would hover around 7-8, most likely.

Shaq WAS mentally ready, though. Until his first chip, he had work ethic and was hovering around the best shape in his life. Lebron is always in his best shape, since 2008 he has had pretty good work ethic and he is doing everything right he has control over.....except accepting his role on a team.

Difference is this: Shaq got lazy and never reached his ceiling. Lebron is banging on his ceiling, trying to move it up. Shaq underachieved without question, while LBJ is achieving what he can in the role he is trying to play.

[Red Hawk #21]

Tbh prime T-Mac and Shaq would have fuckin PILED UP championships

How do you think A.I and Shaq would've done?

[nowhereman523]

Kobe minus Shaq < Reggie Miller

[pass1st]

Tbh prime T-Mac and Shaq would have fuckin PILED UP championships

Replace Kobe with T-Mac and you replace a hard working player with a lazy talented player. I don't think T-Mac had what it took to make deep playoff runs.

[Nathan89]

Dude is mad overrated.

This reminds me of someone...

[Nathan89]

Replace Kobe with T-Mac and you replace a hard working player with a lazy talented player. I don't think T-Mac had what it took to make deep playoff runs.

neither did Kobe post-shaq/pre-gasol

You're fooling yourself if you don't think Shaq could have won with T-Mac.

[pass1st]

neither did Kobe post-shaq/pre-gasol

You're fooling yourself if you don't think Shaq could have won with T-Mac.

I don't like Kobe, but his work ethic has always been in the 99th percentile. Considering how he has bounced back from injuries thoughout his career, it's obvious he maintained work ethic.

I think they would have won something, just not a 3peat. T-Mac never made a deep playoff run so he is completely unproven.

[Nathan89]

^ well if they had the officiating help Shaq and Kobe had they could definitely three-peat. Perhaps even do better.

As for Kobe work ethic I don't know because I don't watch him practice. I mean I could trust espn but if I did I would be believing he's also clutch. I'll google a work ethic percentile chart of all the players.

[Giuseppe]

^ well if they had the officiating help Shaq and Kobe had they could definitely three-peat. Perhaps even do better.

Only pussies & assholes blame the officiating.

[LnGrrrR]

Shaq would hover around 7-8, most likely.

Shaq WAS mentally ready, though. Until his first chip, he had work ethic and was hovering around the best shape in his life. Lebron is always in his best shape, since 2008 he has had pretty good work ethic and he is doing everything right he has control over.....except accepting his role on a team.

Difference is this: Shaq got lazy and never reached his ceiling. Lebron is banging on his ceiling, trying to move it up. Shaq underachieved without question, while LBJ is achieving what he can in the role he is trying to play.

Who's to say Lebron won't get lazy once he gets a ring? We have the benefit of hindsight on Shaq's career. I doubt anyone thought he was "underachieving" as he was racking up rings.

[Nathan89]

Only pussies & assholes blame the officiating.

only pussies and asshole are repetitive.

[pass1st]

^ well if they had the officiating help Shaq and Kobe had they could definitely three-peat. Perhaps even do better.

As for Kobe work ethic I don't know because I don't watch him practice. I mean I could trust espn but if I did I would be believing he's also clutch. I'll google a work ethic percentile chart of all the players.

I'm including officiating help, and I don't see T-Mac going past 2 chips with Shaq(a generous assumption). That is also assuming T-Mac played as a teammate, not an individual, for '97-04

In order to recover from injury, you have to work hard at rehabilitating your body and making adjustments for what you're stuck with. Kobe has made adjustments throughout his career and constantly bounced back from injuries. You must have forgotten Kobe made the adjustment from physical play to mid-range during the time he was without Shaq or Gasol. That's a lot of work, you don't need to be a rocket scientist to see that. What seperated Kobe from AI or T-Mac was that Kobe always worked to stay in the game.

It's called logic, maybe you can use it sometime.

[Giuseppe]

^Locked at 4--with Kobe at 5 is what Daddy deserves.

That usually doesn't happen in this sort of circumstance, at least in my sphere of the world. That last one Vs. the Celtics was a watershed. It cured many ills for Kobe.

[pass1st]

Who's to say Lebron won't get lazy once he gets a ring? We have the benefit of hindsight on Shaq's career. I doubt anyone thought he was "underachieving" as he was racking up rings.

Now you're assuming the future, which I already said the tables might turn later.

[Nathan89]

I'm including officiating help, and I don't see T-Mac going past 2 chips with Shaq(a generous assumption). That is also assuming T-Mac played as a teammate, not an individual, for '97-04

In order to recover from injury, you have to work hard at rehabilitating your body and making adjustments for what you're stuck with. Kobe has made adjustments throughout his career and constantly bounced back from injuries. You must have forgotten Kobe made the adjustment from physical play to mid-range during the time he was without Shaq or Gasol. That's a lot of work, you don't need to be a rocket scientist to see that. What seperated Kobe from AI or T-Mac was that Kobe always worked to stay in the game.

It's called logic, maybe you can use it sometime.

Or some people heal quicker than others...or the injury was exaggerated in the first place... It hard to know the real truth about "made in espn".

The true answer to this is talented teammatesPeriod

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Inb4 Lakerfan brings up Kobe's :cryinjured pinkie:cry

[baseline bum]

Replace Kobe with T-Mac and you replace a hard working player with a lazy talented player. I don't think T-Mac had what it took to make deep playoff runs.

I'd take Kobe for games 1-6, no question.

[LnGrrrR]

Now you're assuming the future, which I already said the tables might turn later.

But they haven't yet. Which is why LBJ is far more of an underachiever. Two time MVP, no ring.

[Giuseppe]

Inb4 Lakerfan brings up Kobe's :cryinjured pinkie:cry

Only pussies & assholes use the injury excuse.

[pass1st]

Or some people heal quicker than others...or the injury was exaggerated in the first place... It hard to know the real truth about "made in espn".

The true answer to this is talented teammatesPeriod

I don't think Kobe has supernatural healing powers or his teammates helped him heal. :rolleyes

He has had some exaggerated injuries, but most of them have taken their toll on Kobe. He quit dunking for a while simply because his knees couldn't take it.

He worked through injuries and conditioned his body to avoid severe injuries. Iverson is a prime example of what happens when you don't condition your body in the pre-season and don't work to rehabilitate after injury.

[pass1st]

But they haven't yet. Which is why LBJ is far more of an underachiever. Two time MVP, no ring.

When LBJ wastes his prime, he will be the underachiever. I would say his prime will end at 30.

[DMC]

LBJ is currently one of the greatest underachievers of all time, if we consider underachieving to be not meeting expectations.

Then again, he's done some good stuff and he's considered to be the best in the game, but he's not achieved on a team level.

[NRHector]

Only pussies & assholes use the injury excuse.here you go again with your repetitive shit, act you age granpa

[DMC]

here you go again with your repetitive shit, act you age granpa
He's acting his age. He's got Alzheimer's disease and doesn't recall ever saying those things.

[Giuseppe]

here you go again with your repetitive shit, act you age granpa

& I will continue in that manner when you guys prompt me such.

It's my religion.

[Venti Quattro]

This thread screams of Captain Obvious. But what can we do, the thread starter is stupid as fuck.

[lefty]

Shaq would hover around 7-8, most likely.

Shaq WAS mentally ready, though. Until his first chip, he had work ethic and was hovering around the best shape in his life. Lebron is always in his best shape, since 2008 he has had pretty good work ethic and he is doing everything right he has control over.....except accepting his role on a team.

Difference is this: Shaq got lazy and never reached his ceiling. Lebron is banging on his ceiling, trying to move it up. Shaq underachieved without question, while LBJ is achieving what he can in the role he is trying to play.

Actually, he gained weight in L.A because Phil Jackson asked him to do so.

Phil wanted Shaq to be as strong as possible in order to pound it inside and draw as many fouls as possible ( to put the opposite big men in foul trouble, not because of his FT percentage obviously)

That was a stupid thing to do, since a lean Shaq was already much stronger that the opposition anyway

[pass1st]

Actually, he gained weight in L.A because Phil Jackson asked him to do so.

Phil wanted Shaq to be as strong as possible in order to pound it inside and draw as many fouls as possible ( to put the opposite big men in foul trouble, not because of his FT percentage obviously)

That was a stupid thing to do, since a lean Shaq was already much stronger that the opposition anyway

Did he tell Shaq to eat a dozen cheese burgers during half time? If Phil wanted Shaq to gain weight, I think he meant muscle......fat doesn't make you much stronger....just harder to push around.

[Jacob1983]

Will people stop calling Lecrab "LBJ"? I mean seriously, he wasn't president. And it's confusing sometimes.

[LkrFan]

g3fFqds-oeU&feature

:lmao :lmao :lmao

Notice how he pussyfoots around with the question. Noncommittal - like his 4th qtrs! :lol

What an asshat! :lmao

[Nathan89]

^I believe he was also saying that the Lakers were going to comeback against Dallas.

[Red Hawk #21]

gnDrm8YPSBE&feature

Kobe really would beat Lebron 1 on 1 imho, how can Lebron stop Kobe without any help defense? Kobe would dismantle him.

[Giuseppe]

^I believe he was also saying that the Lakers were going to comeback against Dallas.

After The Skunker & 8 you've nary room.

[lefty]

The 1990-1992 and 2000 Blazers

[LkrFan]

gnDrm8YPSBE&feature

SWAG! He looked like he was insulted by being asked such a dumbass question. Scratch that, he looked pissed :lol

Kobe would murder LeHype one on one. He knows he would destroy him and LeHype knows it too. :lol

Kobe would do it right now anywhere. LeHype says it will never happen. He sound scurred if you ask me. Kobe even mocked him by saying no one dunking on him at his camp. Unlike LeHype. :lmao

[Nathan89]

Kobe got destroyed by Ariza.

Who would win between lebron and kobe? (see above sentence)

[LkrFan]

Kobe got destroyed by Ariza.

Who would win between lebron and kobe? (see above sentence)

I heard that if the NBAPA union decertifies, all contracts will be voided. On one hand it's great for the Spurs because you guys won't have to pay that albatross of a contract to the TOSB. OTOH, he may sign with a contender to have a chance to win. Once upon a time he tried to go play with Tmac and Grant Hill until the Admiral talked him out of it (barely). Imagine him backing up Pau/Bynum for dirt cheap - leaving you guys with Splitter anchoring your defense. :lol

Two can play that game Nate. :toast

:downspin:

[Red Hawk #21]

Kobe got destroyed by Ariza.



Link?

[Giuseppe]

the TOSB

:lmao:lmao:lmao

[Giuseppe]

.

[LkrFan]

:lmao:lmao:lmao

:toast

[nowhereman523]

Finals MVPS:
Shaq - 3
Kobe - 2

[Red Hawk #21]

Finals MVPS:
Shaq - 3
Kobe - 2

Ahh, a new trend has just been set. :whine

[DMC]

Ahh, a new trend has just been set. :whine
Nah, Culby only counts rings.

It's his religion.

[Giuseppe]

^

[pass1st]

Did you used to go

"Russel: 11
Wilt: 2"

back in the day, Curly?

[Red Hawk #21]

^

:lol

[LkrFan]

^

:lol

[jacobdrj]

The only part of LeBron that said underachiever to me was when he quit on his team right before the moving of his talents to South Beach... That whole post-season, he was playing half-hearted.

Before that time, he played his arse off, as he did again when he was in Miami... I think he needs to learn how to defer more, but ultimately, I think LeBron has done a fantastic job.

Shaq was never in shape. He didn't take the game seriously enough. He did capitalize on his physical talents, and played within those talents, always making himself a better passer over time, never settling for jumpers... But he should have kept better conditioning. He should have learned to respect his team-mates more by keeping quiet, and not burning every soon-to-be ex-teammate he had... (I am not even talking about Kobe...)

And if the fat blob that was Shaq made even a MENIAL attempt to learn how to shoot free-throws at a half-way respectable rate, MAYBE he would be the all time leader in points, and have another ring or 2 to show for his time in the NBA...

LBJ still has time to become more of a letdown, or supplant MJ... His book is not yet written...

[nowhereman523]

Did someone actually give a thoughtful response?

The only response needed is

Shaq: 3
Kobe: 2

[Giuseppe]

Kobe: 5

Daddy: 4

[Leetonidas]

I heard that if the NBAPA union decertifies, all contracts will be voided. On one hand it's great for the Spurs because you guys won't have to pay that albatross of a contract to the TOSB. OTOH, he may sign with a contender to have a chance to win. Once upon a time he tried to go play with Tmac and Grant Hill until the Admiral talked him out of it (barely). Imagine him backing up Pau/Bynum for dirt cheap - leaving you guys with Splitter anchoring your defense. :lol

Two can play that game Nate. :toast

:downspin:

If Duncan went to Orlando they wouldn't have gotten McGrady and Hill, it would've been just McGrady probably you dumbshit :lmao

[Giuseppe]

^Duncan has always been a shifty cocknocker. He acts all innocent & delicate, but, he's as crooked as a dog's hind leg.

But, he's created, in association with Media a personna that is tiffany.

[Leetonidas]

prove it

[LkrFan]

^Duncan has always been a shifty cocknocker. He acts all innocent & delicate, but, he's as crooked as a dog's hind leg.

But, he's created, in association with Media a personna that is tiffany.

Tiffany Duncan!! Brilliant!! :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao

[LkrFan]

If Duncan went to Orlando they wouldn't have gotten McGrady and Hill, it would've been just McGrady probably you dumbshit :lmao

You are the dumbass. Orlando had the cap space for 3 near max players (similar to what we see in Miami). The Admiral saved you guys from periennial lottery visits by keeping Tiffany out of the Magic kingdom. :downspin: