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spursncowboys
11-25-2011, 04:09 PM
By Charles Krauthammer, Published: November 24

Democrats are unanimous in charging that the debt-reduction supercommittee collapsed because Republicans refused to raise taxes. Apparently, Republicans are in the thrall of one Grover Norquist, the anti-tax campaigner, whom Sen. John Kerry called “the 13th member of this committee without being there.” Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid helpfully suggested “maybe they should impeach Grover Norquist.”

With that, Norquist officially replaces the Koch brothers as the great malevolent manipulator that controls the republic by pulling unseen strings on behalf of the plutocracy.

Nice theory. Except for the following facts:

●Sen. Tom Coburn last year signed on to the Simpson-Bowles tax reform that would have increased tax revenue by $1 trillion over a decade.

●During the debt-ceiling talks, House Speaker John Boehner agreed to an $800 billion revenue increase as part of a Grand Bargain.

●Supercommittee member Pat Toomey, a Club for Growth Republican, proposed increasing tax revenue by $300 billion as part of $1.2 trillion in debt reduction.

Leading, very conservative Republicans proposing tax increases. So why does the myth of the Norquist-controlled anti-tax monolith persist? You might suggest cynicism and perversity. Let me offer a more benign explanation: thickheadedness — the inability to tell the difference between tax revenue and tax rates.

In deficit reduction, all that matters is tax revenue. The holders of our national debt care not a whit what tax rates yield the money to pay them back. They care about the sum.

The Republican proposals raise revenue, despite lowering rates, by opening a gusher of new income for the Treasury in the form of loophole elimination. For example, the Toomey plan eliminates deductions by $300 billion more than the reduction in tax rates “cost.” Result: $300 billion in new revenue.

The Simpson-Bowles commission — appointed by President Obama and endorsed by Coburn — used the same formula. Its tax reform would lower tax rates at a “cost” of $1 trillion a year while eliminating loopholes that deprive the Treasury of $1.1 trillion a year. This would leave the Treasury with an excess — i.e., new tax revenue — of $100 billion a year, or $1 trillion over a decade.

Raising revenue through tax reform is better than simply raising rates, which Democrats insist upon with near religious fervor. It is more economically efficient because it eliminates credits, carve-outs and deductions that grossly misallocate capital. And it is more fair because it is the rich who can afford not only the sharp lawyers and accountants who exploit loopholes but the lobbyists who create them in the first place.

Yet the Democrats, who flatter themselves as the party of fairness, are instead obsessed with raising tax rates on the rich as a sign of civic virtue. This is perverse in three ways:

(1) Raising rates gratuitously slows economic growth, i.e., expansion of the economic pie for everyone, by penalizing work and by retaining inefficiency-inducing loopholes.

(2) We’re talking pennies on the dollar. Obama’s coveted repeal of the Bush tax cuts would yield the Treasury, at the very most, $80 billion a year — offsetting 2 cents on the dollar of government spending ($3.6 trillion).

(3) Hiking tax rates ignores the real drivers of debt, which, as Obama himself has acknowledged, are entitlements.

Has the president ever publicly proposed a single significant structural change in any entitlement? After Simpson-Bowles reported? No. In his February budget? No. In his April 13 budget “framework”? No. During the debt-ceiling crisis? No. During or after the supercommittee deliberations? No.

Indeed, Obama was AWOL from the supercommittee — then immediately pounced on its failure by going on TV to repeat his incessantly repeated campaign theme of the do-nothing (Republican) Congress.

A swell slogan that fits nicely with the Norquist myth. Except for another inconvenient fact: It is the Republicans who passed — through the House, the only branch of government they control — a real budget that cut $5.8 trillion of spending over the next 10 years. Obama’s February budget, which would have increased spending, was laughed out of the Senate, voted down 97 to 0. As for the Democratic Senate, it has submitted no budget at all for 2 1 / 2 years.

Who, then, is do-nothing? Republicans should happily take on this absurd, and central, Democratic campaign plank. Bring Simpson-Bowles to the House floor and pass the most radical of its three deficit-reduction alternatives.

Dare the Senate Democrats to vote down the grandest of all bargains. Dare Obama to veto his own debt commission. Dare the Democrats to actually do something about debt.

[email protected]

ChumpDumper
11-25-2011, 04:37 PM
So the Republicans are campaigning on a platform of revenue increases through the closure of loopholes for rich people?

Link?

Wild Cobra
11-25-2011, 05:43 PM
Revenue increases aren't necessarily done by increasing tax rates. More of a particular taxed activity can be promoted, loopholes can be closed, etc.

ChumpDumper
11-25-2011, 05:44 PM
So Republicans are advertizing this, right?

Wild Cobra
11-25-2011, 05:47 PM
So Republicans are advertizing this, right?
Should they pay for it?

ChumpDumper
11-25-2011, 05:47 PM
Should they pay for it?Who said they had to pay for it?

Wild Cobra
11-25-2011, 05:49 PM
Who said they had to pay for it?
You think they choose what the media advertises?

Wait...

Let me back up...

I forgot who I was talking to for a moment. Never mind. My fault.

ChumpDumper
11-25-2011, 05:50 PM
You think they choose what the media advertises?

Wait...

Let me back up...

I forgot who I was talking to for a moment. Never mind. My fault.Do they advertize it on Fox News and talk radio?

spursncowboys
11-25-2011, 06:16 PM
You're wasting your time with CD, WC. If it's not on HuffPost, it never happned.

ChumpDumper
11-25-2011, 06:24 PM
I'm asking if it happened anywhere, dipshit.

Wild Cobra
11-25-2011, 06:33 PM
You're wasting your time with CD, WC. If it's not on HuffPost, it never happned.
Yes, I know. In another thread, he just asked where the flaglots are. I know he has run out of his normal material when he resorts to that stupidity.

ChumpDumper
11-25-2011, 06:35 PM
Yes, I know. In another thread, he just asked where the flaglots are. I know he has run out of his normal material when he resorts to that stupidity.No, it's just a natural reaction when you go to the satellite photos, flaglot.

You can start a poll asking if its funny.

Go ahead.

Wild Cobra
11-25-2011, 06:47 PM
No, it's just a natural reaction when you go to the satellite photos, flaglot.

You can start a poll asking if its funny.

Go ahead.
OK, I understand now. Faggots like you get a hard-on over such pics.

ChumpDumper
11-26-2011, 12:14 AM
OK, I understand now. Faggots like you get a hard-on over such pics.lol u mad

And no.

boutons_deux
11-27-2011, 10:07 AM
der Kraut Hammer lying about the cause of supercommittee failure.

His cherry picking of Coburn, Boner, Toomey supporting tax increases hides the fact the NONE of those tax raises ever had the tiniest chance of being made into law because the Congressional Repugs afraid to violate bully Norquist's pledge.

Rolling back dubya's tax cuts will not be "pennies on the dollar" because estate tax cuts alone cost $800B in revenue for the first 10 years (nearly all going to the 0.1%), and will be cost much higher in the next 10 years.

You can tell a Repug/conservative is lying because his lips or keyboard is moving.

boutons_deux
11-27-2011, 08:39 PM
speaking of the bully Norquist:

Norquist Dredges Up Shallow Lake Analogy To Criticize Stimulus


The idea that if you take a dollar out of the economy and then -- from somebody who earned it, either through debt, or through taxes -- and give it to somebody who's politically connected, that there are more dollars around, that if you stand on one side of the lake and put a bucket into the lake, and walk around to the other side in front of the TV cameras, pour the bucket back into the lake and announce you're stimulating the lake to great depths. We just wasted $800 billion on stimulus spending that added to debt, that killed jobs.

Norquist's analogy is all wet. If we were to conceptualize the economy as a large lake, we would in turn conceive of the four components of the economy - private consumption, investment, government spending, and net exports - as tributaries feeding that lake.


Norquist's misleading metaphor serves to perpetuate the zombie lie that government spending always crowds out private investment. Nobel Prize winning economist Paul Krugman eviscerated that claim back in 2009:

Under the kind of conditions we're now facing, the main determinant of business investment is the state of the economy, as evidenced by the plunge in investment shown in the figure. This, in turn, means that anything that improves the state of the economy, including fiscal stimulus, leads to more investment, and hence raises the economy's future potential.

That is, under current conditions deficit spending doesn't lead to crowding out -- it leads to crowding in. In fact, you could argue that the worst thing we can do for future generations is NOT to run sufficiently large deficits right now.

http://mediamatters.org/print/blog/201111270004

ElNono
11-27-2011, 08:44 PM
AFAIK, Bohner didn't have the votes to pass that Grand Bargain referred to in the article. IIRC, Cantor wouldn't have any of it when it came to raising taxes.

ElNono
11-27-2011, 08:46 PM
And Obama can't pass laws (neither can Norquist). This is on Congress, both sides.

EVAY
11-27-2011, 08:53 PM
afaik, bohner didn't have the votes to pass that grand bargain referred to in the article. Iirc, cantor wouldn't have any of it when it came to raising taxes.

+1

EVAY
11-27-2011, 08:55 PM
And Obama can't pass laws (neither can Norquist). This is on Congress, both sides.

Absolutely. Plus, both sides asked Obama NOT to get involved in the Super Committee negotiations because they feared it would politicize it too much since anything that Obama is in favor of, the Tea Party has to oppose.

You are right, E-N...this failure is on congress, regardless of how much they want to pass that buck.

RandomGuy
11-28-2011, 08:02 AM
Absolutely. Plus, both sides asked Obama NOT to get involved in the Super Committee negotiations because they feared it would politicize it too much since anything that Obama is in favor of, the Tea Party has to oppose.

You are right, E-N...this failure is on congress, regardless of how much they want to pass that buck.

I would hope that no is so stupid as to believe that if Obama had gotten involved the House Republicans wouldn't have opposed the shit out of anything he advocated for the sole purpose of not handing him an achievement that he could campaign on.

I think that is what happened anyway, to a large degree. It is rather obvious to me that the Republicans in Congress have the following priorities in order:

1) Get re-elected.
2) Damage Obama enough so that he doesn't get re-elected.
3) National interests.


Norquist or no, ain't no Republican ever going to go back to the district that elected them claiming they voted to "raise revenue" by closing loopholes.

GMAFB.

boutons_deux
11-28-2011, 09:29 AM
"3) National interests."

Third???? GMAFB.

The 2000-2008 Repugs demonstrated repeatedly they have NO national interests in their strategy, and don't GAS about governing. The current crop of Repugs have no interest in solving the unending mortgage crisis, killing that fraud shop MERS, nor in creating jobs, or doing anything to kick the economy up.

All Repug politics all the time, Human-Americans can go to hell

George Gervin's Afro
11-28-2011, 11:14 AM
The GOP asked Obama to stay out of it..and now are complaining because he is not there at the table..:lmao

hater
11-28-2011, 01:45 PM
Obama was on his knees ready to blow the entire supercomitte. But his own ppl and the repubs said "get lost"

RandomGuy
12-20-2019, 05:11 PM
By Charles Krauthammer, Published: November 24

Democrats are unanimous in charging that the debt-reduction supercommittee collapsed because Republicans refused to raise taxes. Apparently, Republicans are in the thrall of one Grover Norquist, the anti-tax campaigner, whom Sen. John Kerry called “the 13th member of this committee without being there.” Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid helpfully suggested “maybe they should impeach Grover Norquist.”

With that, Norquist officially replaces the Koch brothers as the great malevolent manipulator that controls the republic by pulling unseen strings on behalf of the plutocracy.

Nice theory. Except for the following facts:

●Sen. Tom Coburn last year signed on to the Simpson-Bowles tax reform that would have increased tax revenue by $1 trillion over a decade.

●During the debt-ceiling talks, House Speaker John Boehner agreed to an $800 billion revenue increase as part of a Grand Bargain.

●Supercommittee member Pat Toomey, a Club for Growth Republican, proposed increasing tax revenue by $300 billion as part of $1.2 trillion in debt reduction.

Leading, very conservative Republicans proposing tax increases. So why does the myth of the Norquist-controlled anti-tax monolith persist? You might suggest cynicism and perversity. Let me offer a more benign explanation: thickheadedness — the inability to tell the difference between tax revenue and tax rates.

In deficit reduction, all that matters is tax revenue. The holders of our national debt care not a whit what tax rates yield the money to pay them back. They care about the sum.

The Republican proposals raise revenue, despite lowering rates, by opening a gusher of new income for the Treasury in the form of loophole elimination. For example, the Toomey plan eliminates deductions by $300 billion more than the reduction in tax rates “cost.” Result: $300 billion in new revenue.

The Simpson-Bowles commission — appointed by President Obama and endorsed by Coburn — used the same formula. Its tax reform would lower tax rates at a “cost” of $1 trillion a year while eliminating loopholes that deprive the Treasury of $1.1 trillion a year. This would leave the Treasury with an excess — i.e., new tax revenue — of $100 billion a year, or $1 trillion over a decade.

Raising revenue through tax reform is better than simply raising rates, which Democrats insist upon with near religious fervor. It is more economically efficient because it eliminates credits, carve-outs and deductions that grossly misallocate capital. And it is more fair because it is the rich who can afford not only the sharp lawyers and accountants who exploit loopholes but the lobbyists who create them in the first place.

Yet the Democrats, who flatter themselves as the party of fairness, are instead obsessed with raising tax rates on the rich as a sign of civic virtue. This is perverse in three ways:

(1) Raising rates gratuitously slows economic growth, i.e., expansion of the economic pie for everyone, by penalizing work and by retaining inefficiency-inducing loopholes.

(2) We’re talking pennies on the dollar. Obama’s coveted repeal of the Bush tax cuts would yield the Treasury, at the very most, $80 billion a year — offsetting 2 cents on the dollar of government spending ($3.6 trillion).

(3) Hiking tax rates ignores the real drivers of debt, which, as Obama himself has acknowledged, are entitlements.

Has the president ever publicly proposed a single significant structural change in any entitlement? After Simpson-Bowles reported? No. In his February budget? No. In his April 13 budget “framework”? No. During the debt-ceiling crisis? No. During or after the supercommittee deliberations? No.

Indeed, Obama was AWOL from the supercommittee — then immediately pounced on its failure by going on TV to repeat his incessantly repeated campaign theme of the do-nothing (Republican) Congress.

A swell slogan that fits nicely with the Norquist myth. Except for another inconvenient fact: It is the Republicans who passed — through the House, the only branch of government they control — a real budget that cut $5.8 trillion of spending over the next 10 years. Obama’s February budget, which would have increased spending, was laughed out of the Senate, voted down 97 to 0. As for the Democratic Senate, it has submitted no budget at all for 2 1 / 2 years.

Who, then, is do-nothing? Republicans should happily take on this absurd, and central, Democratic campaign plank. Bring Simpson-Bowles to the House floor and pass the most radical of its three deficit-reduction alternatives.

Dare the Senate Democrats to vote down the grandest of all bargains. Dare Obama to veto his own debt commission. Dare the Democrats to actually do something about debt.

[email protected]

RIP Mr. Krauthammer

Another essay that didn't age well.