Surround Sound Question

[Drachen]

I want to buy a surround sound system. I don't have one and it is getting annoying because I like to listen to music loudly. The things I would like are DLNA compliance (this is negotiable as long as I can connect anything via a bluetooth connection), I would like wireless rear speakers (this is pretty much non-negotiable unless the price is dynamite and I can upgrade the speakers later on without buying a whole new system), and I would like internet connectivity.

I realize that this is a tall order especially since I don't want to spend more than 300 dollars, but does anyone have any kind of suggestions?

[diego]

I did the research but never made a purchase :lol

basically, what most people will tell/ask is:

1) how much of an audiophile are you? home theather in a box (htib), no matter how expensive, will not match up well to separate hi fi components. personally for my ears and budget htib is fine but most audiophiles cant stand them

2) what is your primary use? if you are just going to listen to music, surround is probably not that useful. Movies and to a lesser extent games are the only thing that will really take advantadge of it. Most will tell you that for music 2 good speakers, with or w/o subwoofer, are better than 5.1 or 7.1 (most music is recorded stereo, not surround)

3) if you are dead set on surround and want a better experience, most people will tell you to look at the receiver to make sure it supports the right formats, and to look at how much power it can send to each speaker, and whether it supports an active sub woofer. Some HTIB from better companies support active subwoofers, supposedly this is important if you like action movies.

4) Something that is becoming popular among audiophiles is to buy used equipment from the 70's / 80's. Supposedly this was the golden age of hi fi, and the stuff made now is all bells and whistles but neutered in power and quality. I have no way to verify because I dont live in the US, but supposedly you can find really good systems from that time and have them fixed up for the same price as a new system, with much better sound quality and power.


I still havent bought anything because literally all I can get here in Chile is over priced crap, so I'm still holding on to my 80's era stereo setup till I can find something better...

[leemajors]

2) what is your primary use? if you are just going to listen to music, surround is probably not that useful. Movies and to a lesser extent games are the only thing that will really take advantadge of it. Most will tell you that for music 2 good speakers, with or w/o subwoofer, are better than 5.1 or 7.1 (most music is recorded stereo, not surround)

this is pretty much why i never bothered. i am pretty sure wireless stuff is still pretty expensive, but I could easily be wrong.

[diego]

sorry, I didnt see the $300 limit; Im pretty sure you can find an onkyo htib with active sub for that money, but it definitely wont have wireless speakers or internet, and probably not dlna either. Though these days its pretty easy to get those features from other sources (ie, cellphones, media players, netbooks, htpc, etc etc.) Most onboard internet solutions on TV / Home theaters are pretty limited anyway.

[diego]

occasionally there are deals for htib with wireless rear speakers, but in both cases I saw such deals, there was a lot of fine print (ie, it included the rear speakers and an adaptor to send a signal to them, but you had to buy the wireless receiver for the speaker; or that it had a ridiculously short range and you had to buy an extender for it, that sort of thing). But its not necessarily hundreds of dollars more as it once was. Still, for 300 if I were you I would just focus on inputs, formats, and as much power and quality as possible, the other stuff is superfluous and basically out of your budget unless you go for something really cheap like the typical LG bluray HT with 5 identical mini-satellites, a passive sub, no optical in/out, but all of the net stuff like dlna and internet..

[diego]

oh, most rear wireless speakers still require power, kind of putting a drag on the whole wireless thing.

[diego]

here are a couple of links talking about vintage gear and how it supposedly trumps modern equipment in the quality department

http://monroetalks.com/forum/index.php?topic=24193.0

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/blog/2011/07/19/imperfect-sound-forever

[Cry Havoc]

http://www.fluance.com/shop-speakers.html

At that price range, this is probably your best bet.

[Drachen]

Wow, I really appreciate y'alls help. The questions y'all asked made me think and I guess I really don't need surround sound right now. My wife and talked about it and though we really thing SS would be nice to have, we can deal without it for now. A 2.1 channel solution would probably be better for us until we can spend a good chunk of money on something. Does anyone have any suggestions? I kinda looked around and it seems that there is an LG soundbar with a wireless sub at BB for 200 right now, it has bluetooth connectivity, but it has two problems. 1. My wife said she likes to listen to the radio sometimes. Not internet radio or pandora, but just the radio (and it doesn't have a receiver just two optical [not hdmi] inputs and bluetooth connectivity). 2. It think someone in here said that LG soundbar's suck, so that would stop me as well.

[Drachen]

Oh, and I am not a major audiophile. I just want my music loud, crisp, and not distorted.

[Drachen]

http://www.fluance.com/shop-speakers.html

At that price range, this is probably your best bet.

I still don't have a receiver though.

OH, and I don't care if it is a "solution in a box" at the moment.

Basically, I am settling because I have had the same requirements for the past year, and I still don't have a stereo system. LOL (I used to have a freakin sweet Onkyo from 89, but I made the mistake of sharing a storage space with someone who didn't pay their half and I lost it (along with a lot of other cool stuff). That thing had inputs and outputs for DAYS. LOL. Anyway, if anyone has any other suggestions I am all ears.

[Frenzy]

Been meaning to upgrade my surround. It's like 6 or 7 years old. Pioneer has been good to me via that system. I used it daily and turned up the volume plenty of times. Still sounds good..just well it looks old :lol

It's a cd/dvd/recevier that's not given me one problem just it ...it looks old ..I'm so superficial :depressed

[leemajors]

i'd start with a good receiver and build out from there. you can find a bluetooth ready receiver easily and they all normally have radios built in. i'll leave the recommendations on exactly what to CH, but I am sure there are some good deals out there this weekend. Are you able to push music to your WD Live using your phone? You could even skip bluetooth if you could do that.

[Drachen]

i'd start with a good receiver and build out from there. you can find a bluetooth ready receiver easily and they all normally have radios built in. i'll leave the recommendations on exactly what to CH, but I am sure there are some good deals out there this weekend. Are you able to push music to your WD Live using your phone? You could even skip bluetooth if you could do that.

Yes, I can do that, so I guess that is true. I was looking at receivers by themselves just now. I think that I have an old pair of speakers in the attic. So I could just get a receiver and hook up those speakers until I can save up more. Is Onkyo still a good brand? How about Pioneer?


(I just hope I have that pair of speakers, otherwise, it would suck.

[Cry Havoc]

Drachen, do you live in SA? You could also check out some craigslist deals, I'd be happy to give you info on any components you see that look interesting.

[Cry Havoc]

Also, I should point out that the nice benefit of buying separate components is that you can acquire them gradually and build up your dream system piece by piece. I bought my towers on craigslist and got a fantastic deal on them, then pieced the system together around the first two over the course of several months.

[Drachen]

Drachen, do you live in SA? You could also check out some craigslist deals, I'd be happy to give you info on any components you see that look interesting.

yeah, I do live in SA. I will look on CL.
I will ask one question. Can Receivers act as video passthroughs these days? I mean, can you plug all of your electronics into the stereo, and have one HDMI cable that goes to the TV?

Also, what is a good wattage to look for?

[leemajors]

yeah, I do live in SA. I will look on CL.
I will ask one question. Can Receivers act as video passthroughs these days? I mean, can you plug all of your electronics into the stereo, and have one HDMI cable that goes to the TV?

Also, what is a good wattage to look for?

some have several hdmi ports, yes.

[Drachen]

some have several hdmi ports, yes.

Right, and this will tell you how long it has been since I have had a stereo set up, but the last time I did something like this, I had to plug into the tv for video, and the stereo for audio which creates a whole mess of chords. I am assuming that now you can plug all of your stuff into the stereo itself and it sends both audio and video signals down one HDMI cable which is connected to the tv. Is this the case? and if so, how do you get the TV to play through the sound system. Is that one HDMI cable two way, or do you have to run another HDMI cable back to the stereo in order to do so?

[Drachen]

how are these?

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Yamaha+-+500W+5.1-Ch.+3D+Pass+Through*+A/V+Home+Theater+Receiver/9785037.p?id=1218173778853&skuId=9785037&st=home%20audio&cp=8&lp=8#BVRRWidgetID

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Pioneer+-+625W+5.1-Channel+A/V+Home+Theater+Receiver/1800045.p?id=1218292462813&skuId=1800045&st=home%20audio&cp=10&lp=4

[leemajors]

hdmi does sound and video. you would just need hdmi from multiple sources into the receiver then one hdmi to the tv. a lot less cable, thankfully.

[DMC]

Wow, I really appreciate y'alls help. The questions y'all asked made me think and I guess I really don't need surround sound right now. My wife and talked about it and though we really thing SS would be nice to have, we can deal without it for now. A 2.1 channel solution would probably be better for us until we can spend a good chunk of money on something. Does anyone have any suggestions? I kinda looked around and it seems that there is an LG soundbar with a wireless sub at BB for 200 right now, it has bluetooth connectivity, but it has two problems. 1. My wife said she likes to listen to the radio sometimes. Not internet radio or pandora, but just the radio (and it doesn't have a receiver just two optical [not hdmi] inputs and bluetooth connectivity). 2. It think someone in here said that LG soundbar's suck, so that would stop me as well.
I did the 2.1 in one of my downstairs living rooms and it's worked out great. I went with the Samsung sound bar and wireless sub. Just do your research if you are using it for TV because there can be some sound delay issues.

[DMC]

how are these?

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Yamaha+-+500W+5.1-Ch.+3D+Pass+Through*+A/V+Home+Theater+Receiver/9785037.p?id=1218173778853&skuId=9785037&st=home%20audio&cp=8&lp=8#BVRRWidgetID

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Pioneer+-+625W+5.1-Channel+A/V+Home+Theater+Receiver/1800045.p?id=1218292462813&skuId=1800045&st=home%20audio&cp=10&lp=4

Both will serve your purpose. Neither have speakers.

[diego]

Right, and this will tell you how long it has been since I have had a stereo set up, but the last time I did something like this, I had to plug into the tv for video, and the stereo for audio which creates a whole mess of chords. I am assuming that now you can plug all of your stuff into the stereo itself and it sends both audio and video signals down one HDMI cable which is connected to the tv. Is this the case? and if so, how do you get the TV to play through the sound system. Is that one HDMI cable two way, or do you have to run another HDMI cable back to the stereo in order to do so?

i'm pretty sure this feature is called ARC (audio return channel) for the TV to send its audio input to the receiver through the same HDMI cable that is feeding the TV video from the receiver; you need a HDMI 1.4 spec TV and cables though (my TV's are 1.3 :depressed)

[diego]

the alternative is to hook your cable/sat/antenna directly to the receiver, and then just the video from the receiver to the tv and disable the TV speakers

[Drachen]

i'm pretty sure this feature is called ARC (audio return channel) for the TV to send its audio input to the receiver through the same HDMI cable that is feeding the TV video from the receiver; you need a HDMI 1.4 spec TV and cables though (my TV's are 1.3 :depressed)

LOL, well my samsung DLP is very likely not 1.4 as that standard came out not too long ago (if I remember correctly) and I bought my TV 3.5 years ago. I bought the Insignia this year, but that is in my room and I am not swapping the 40 inch in my room for the 50 inch in my living room. LOL

[Drachen]

the alternative is to hook your cable/sat/antenna directly to the receiver, and then just the video from the receiver to the tv and disable the TV speakers

thanks, was just about to ask this

[leemajors]

the alternative is to hook your cable/sat/antenna directly to the receiver, and then just the video from the receiver to the tv and disable the TV speakers

yeah i just turn the tv volume to 0 on mine. i don't have hdmi inputs on my receiver, so i have everything plugged into the tv and use optical out to my receiver.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

I suggest you wait until you can up your budget.

[Drachen]

Can someone please give me an opinion on this? ONKYO TX-NR509 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882120176&Tpk=ONKYO%20TX-NR509%205.1). There is a cyber-monday deal on newegg and I just may take advantage of it if this is a good one.

[Drachen]

I guess my big question is to compare it with this Yamaha (http://www.amazon.com/Yamaha-RX-V467BL-525-Watt-Channel-Receiver/dp/B003CP0K8W) and this Pioneer (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882117397&cm_mmc=CM2011_listing-_-488-_-N82E16882117397&nm_mc=CM2011_listing)

[Drachen]

LOL, I think google is watching me. I have been trying to decide between these three receivers and I just got a "google offer" in my email that says I can buy a $40 coupon at newegg for $20.

[Drachen]

Does anyone have any idea which I should purchase first. A center channel or a subwoofer (assuming I have towers wrapped up).

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

Onkyos run hot and need proper ventilation. Just a quick glance and it looks like a few people are having HDMI issues with that model.

Yamaha tends to do well with music, not so much for HT.

Personally, I'd choose the Denon 591/1611 over the Yamaha. Electronics Expo has it for $285 shipped with the various coupon codes out there. Denon usually is the best mix between music/HT, but it really is preference. I'm not that familiar with Pioneers.

You can run a phantom center if you won't have anyone sitting that far left or right of center. It really depends what you're going to use your system for. If its more music(2.0) than HT, then I'd suggest a sub. If it's 50/50 music/HT or more HT, then I'd suggest a center first.

Like I was saying, if you bump your budget up to $6-800, then you'd be much happier with your mini system. Anything less than that really isn't worth it and as much as I loathe them, I'd suggest a soundbar.

Personally, at that price range, I'd buy the Energy Take Classics or the Mirage Nanosats. Each includes a sub and gets great reviews. Don't know if the $399 makes it tough to swallow for you, but considering you get six speakers, it ain't that pricey.


Too bad you're not close to me. I still have my Paradigms and Velodyne sub collecting dust in the spare room.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

Even better, they have a Nanosat bundle for $598. Comes with the Yamaha RX-V371.

http://www.electronics-expo.com/mirage-nanosat51bundle7

If you spend $30 more, then it's the RX-V567.

http://www.electronics-expo.com/mirage-nanosat51bundle9

[Drachen]

Onkyos run hot and need proper ventilation. Just a quick glance and it looks like a few people are having HDMI issues with that model.

Yamaha tends to do well with music, not so much for HT.

Personally, I'd choose the Denon 591/1611 over the Yamaha. Electronics Expo has it for $285 shipped with the various coupon codes out there. Denon usually is the best mix between music/HT, but it really is preference. I'm not that familiar with Pioneers.

You can run a phantom center if you won't have anyone sitting that far left or right of center. It really depends what you're going to use your system for. If its more music(2.0) than HT, then I'd suggest a sub. If it's 50/50 music/HT or more HT, then I'd suggest a center first.

Like I was saying, if you bump your budget up to $6-800, then you'd be much happier with your mini system. Anything less than that really isn't worth it and as much as I loathe them, I'd suggest a soundbar.

Personally, at that price range, I'd buy the Energy Take Classics or the Mirage Nanosats. Each includes a sub and gets great reviews. Don't know if the $399 makes it tough to swallow for you, but considering you get six speakers, it ain't that pricey.


Too bad you're not close to me. I still have my Paradigms and Velodyne sub collecting dust in the spare room.

Well, I ended up getting the Onkyo. With the features that it had and at 180 dollars I just couldn't pass it up. I believe that the HDMI issues that you are talking about are with the TX-SR509. Everything that I have read says that they have fixed the handshake issue with the new model (NR509). I didn't purchase anything else yet, but I found a pair of polk audio monitor 50s on craigslist for 100, but I was thinking I could talk him down to at least 75 since I saw them new for 100. I figured that could tide me over until I can really start purchasing better equipment (though I don't know anything about the monitor50s other than what I have read and haven't fully decided to buy them since I really don't know anything about them). Based on what you say, I will probably buy a sub off of craigslist too. Do y'all have any recommendations of particular speakers or brands to look out for?

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

You'd be much better off giving a few brands a listen. What might sound good to one, will sound muddy or thin and tinny to another.

A cheaper sub that gets good reviews is the BIC f12 - $190 on Amazon. The sub is the last thing I'd buy off of CG. I'd imagine most of those subs have been put through the ringer. And then rolled down the stairs.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

And if you're not going to use the recommended center channel and are going to mix/match brands, you'll be better off getting a center with a tweeter of the same type of material as the tweeter in the 50s(fabric/polymer composite). Apparently, it helps the blend.

Most say timbre matching is important, some don't.

I've always timbre matched.

[Drachen]

You'd be much better off giving a few brands a listen. What might sound good to one, will sound muddy or thin and tinny to another.

A cheaper sub that gets good reviews is the BIC f12 - $190 on Amazon. The sub is the last thing I'd buy off of CG. I'd imagine most of those subs have been put through the ringer. And then rolled down the stairs.

This makes sense. I almost threw the PSW 10 subwoofer for $90 on my order, but I didn't because I thought that I might just get one off of CL but you are right, that probably gets abused.


And if you're not going to use the recommended center channel and are going to mix/match brands, you'll be better off getting a center with a tweeter of the same type of material as the tweeter in the 50s(fabric/polymer composite). Apparently, it helps the blend.

Most say timbre matching is important, some don't.

I've always timbre matched.

I wasn't planning on mixing brands, but do you have to buy a certain model of center channel to go with specific models of tower speakers? what is timbre matching? making sure the box is the same color? :lol

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

The matching center for those is the CS1 or the CS2.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

I haven't seen those Monitor 50s as a pair for $100 new.

I see $99.

Each.

[DMC]

You'll like whatever you get. I've got an old Yamaha system and it blows the windows out of the house, and it's crystal clear.

[Drachen]

I haven't seen those Monitor 50s as a pair for $100 new.

I see $99.

Each.

Oops, you are right, I will still try to walk him down a bit


You'll like whatever you get. I've got an old Yamaha system and it blows the windows out of the house, and it's crystal clear.

You are probably correct since I haven't had a stereo in 8-10 years.

[Cry Havoc]

Most people laugh at my system when I tell them I don't have a subwoofer.

Then they actually hear it, and realize how much a sub isn't necessary for my setup.

Definitely take a listen before you invest in a sub. Most tower speakers don't go way down, but if they do, sometimes it's better to wait until you can buy one that's a lot more expensive. I have yet to bottom my floor speakers out, as they're rated down to 18hz and they can do most of that competently.

[Drachen]

I will probably buy those monitor50s and just go from there. Unless something better comes along tomorrow.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

He's not going to get that in that price range.

But you you should definitely invest most of your money in the speakers.

Get a solid pair up front and piecemeal the rest as you go. I had LCR with no sub or rears for the longest time.

All depends on what you want to do.

[Drachen]

He's not going to get that in that price range.

But you you should definitely invest most of your money in the speakers.

Get a solid pair up front and piecemeal the rest as you go. I had LCR with no sub or rears for the longest time.

All depends on what you want to do.

Well, I WANT it to be primarily for music, but it will likely be used far more for movies and tv. I will probably do the LCR thing, especially since the C that you told me goes with those speakers is only 60 bucks brand new.

[DMC]

Oops, you are right, I will still try to walk him down a bit



You are probably correct since I haven't had a stereo in 8-10 years.
You're trying to avoid buyer's remorse and that's caused by a few things, mostly the feeling of paying too much for too little. Whether you did or not is beside the point since your satisfaction rests as much on bargain as it does on quality of system. In your case, too much can be anything over 300.00, and too little can be something that sounds no better than a 300.00 system.

You're probably no audiophile, so just avoid the remorse purchase and go find your a system and get it going. You won't have buyer's remorse and you will likely never sit around watching a movie or listening to music thinking you need to buy new components.

It doesn't matter what you get, someone is going to tell you about a better system you should have bought or a cheaper system you should have bought.

[Drachen]

You're trying to avoid buyer's remorse and that's caused by a few things, mostly the feeling of paying too much for too little. Whether you did or not is beside the point since your satisfaction rests as much on bargain as it does on quality of system. In your case, too much can be anything over 300.00, and too little can be something that sounds no better than a 300.00 system.

You're probably no audiophile, so just avoid the remorse purchase and go find your a system and get it going. You won't have buyer's remorse and you will likely never sit around watching a movie or listening to music thinking you need to buy new components.

It doesn't matter what you get, someone is going to tell you about a better system you should have bought or a cheaper system you should have bought.

Well, I already bought the Onkyo receiver on a nice cybermonday deal. I don't plan on purchasing all of the components at once so I am going to be able to go over $300 overall. The last several posts of mine were more along the lines of trying to develop a roadmap going forward. Obviously I am going to need the towers first, but where do I go from there. I assume that you should buy within the same brand, but I dont have any idea if you can still fuck it up while buying within a brand. For example, lionsfan told me that the center that goes with the towers that I was considering is the CS1 or CS2 leading me to believe that manufacturers create loosely associated sets and that I have to make sure that I pay attention to that no matter what towers I select. Finally, I just wanted to make sure that I got the components in the correct order. The right thing to do is probably to buy a center channel after the towers, as the system will (sadly) be used more for movies and TV than music due to my family not wanting to listen to music at an appropriate level. I will probably, however, end up getting the SW as I enjoy bass too much. After that I guess I will get the backs and figure out how to wire those. Then some sort of outdoor solution. I understand the idea that I probably should have waited until my budget was higher, but I have been doing that for a while so the piecemeal approach seems far more advantageous to me.

You are right, I am no audiophile which is why I chose the receiver with the features that I wanted even though it only pushes 80 watts per channel compared to the higher wattage of the other two, but I still don't want it to sound crappy enough that I can notice it :lol. Anyway, I appreciate the advice in here and in PM, I will likely have some more questions (at least until the towers are purchased).

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

You should definitely get out and listen to a few different speaker brands. Believe me, they don't all sound the same and there are even some mid-high priced speakers that sound like coffee cans.

You can only learn so much by reading.

I wouldn't worry about wattage. I highly doubt it'll ever be an issue.

And you don't need to look strictly at towers. Bookshelves can also give you the thump you need. Polk makes the Monitor 40 which has the same internals as the 50s, just in a smaller cabinet.

No idea if you have any size or space constraints.