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RandomGuy
11-30-2011, 08:23 AM
Thought I would throw in some actual science, as opposed to op-ed rants.

Good news at last?
The climate may not be as sensitive to carbon dioxide as previously believed

CLIMATE science is famously complicated, but one useful number to keep in mind is “climate sensitivity”. This measures the amount of warming that can eventually be expected to follow a doubling in the atmospheric concentration of carbon dioxide. The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, in its most recent summary of the science behind its predictions, published in 2007, estimated that, in present conditions, a doubling of CO2 would cause warming of about 3°C, with uncertainty of about a degree and a half in either direction. But it also says there is a small probability that the true number is much higher. Some recent studies have suggested that it could be as high as 10°C.

If that were true, disaster beckons. But a paper published in this week’s Science, by Andreas Schmittner of Oregon State University, suggests it is not. In Dr Schmittner’s analysis, the climate is less sensitive to carbon dioxide than was feared.

Existing studies of climate sensitivity mostly rely on data gathered from weather stations, which go back to roughly 1850. Dr Schmittner takes a different approach. His data come from the peak of the most recent ice age, between 19,000 and 23,000 years ago. His group is not the first to use such data (ice cores, fossils, marine sediments and the like) to probe the climate’s sensitivity to carbon dioxide. But their paper is the most thorough. Previous attempts had considered only small regions of the globe. He has compiled enough information to make a credible stab at recreating the climate of the entire planet.

The result offers that rarest of things in climate science—a bit of good news. The group’s most likely figure for climate sensitivity is 2.3°C, which is more than half a degree lower than the consensus figure, with a 66% probability that it lies between 1.7° and 2.6°C. More importantly, these results suggest an upper limit for climate sensitivity of around 3.2°C.

Before you take the SUV out for a celebratory spin, though, it is worth bearing in mind that this is only one study, and, like all such, it has its flaws. The computer model used is of only middling sophistication, Dr Schmittner admits. That may be one reason for the narrow range of his team’s results. And although the study’s geographical coverage is the most comprehensive so far for work of this type, there are still blank areas—notably in Australia, Central Asia, South America and the northern Pacific Ocean. Moreover, some sceptics complain about the way ancient data of this type were used to construct a different but related piece of climate science: the so-called hockey-stick model, which suggests that temperatures have risen suddenly since the beginning of the industrial revolution. It will be interesting to see if such sceptics are willing to be equally sceptical about ancient data when they support their point of view.

http://www.economist.com/node/21540224

--------------------------------------------------

More data and better methodology will get us a lot closer to the truth.

I'm sure the usual suspects will say the usual things and surprise no one, but regardless of what you believe, the science is getting better and will continue to get better.

If, as I think probable, we are driving a good chunk of the warming trend, then that will become more apparent. Over time, it will be harder and harder for the denier crowd to claim to be "honest" skeptics, much like it is hard for anyone to give any credibility to the Truther crowds "honest" skepticism.

George Gervin's Afro
11-30-2011, 08:25 AM
Srry RG I prefer biased news organizations editorial rants as prrof you are wrong.

DarrinS
11-30-2011, 09:01 AM
So, the climate sensitivity is somewhere between 2 and 10? Hmmm, that's comforting.


Related





cc: Simon Tett <[email protected]>
date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 12:30:43 -0600 (MDT)
from: Tom Wigley <[email protected]>
subject: Re: PRESCIENT: Draft plan — updated
to: Keith Briffa <[email protected]>

Keith and Simon (and no-one else),

Paleo data cannot inform us *directly* about how the climate sensitivity
(as climate sensitivity is defined). Note the stressed word. The whole
point here is that the text cannot afford to make statements that are
manifestly incorrect. This is *not* mere pedantry. If you can tell me
where or why the above statement is wrong, then please do so.

Quantifying climate sensitivity from real world data cannot even be done
using present-day data, including satellite data. If you think that one
could do better with paleo data, then you’re fooling yourself. This is
fine, but there is no need to try to fool others by making extravagant
claims.

Tom

Agloco
11-30-2011, 09:12 AM
The result offers that rarest of things in climate science—a bit of good news. The group’s most likely figure for climate sensitivity is 2.3°C, which is more than half a degree lower than the consensus figure, with a 66% probability that it lies between 1.7° and 2.6°C. More importantly, these results suggest an upper limit for climate sensitivity of around 3.2°C.



I wonder why the max likelihood is skewed? It would seem that the data is not normally distributed eh?

Perhaps someone versed in these matters can enlighten us.

MannyIsGod
11-30-2011, 10:00 AM
The article shows why climate science is so misunderstood. They present it as a lowering of expectations while its actually right in the IPCC's most likely range and many IPCC models actually come in cooler.

Ag, this post many answer that question for you:

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2011/11/ice-age-constraints-on-climate-sensitivity/


Is sensitivity symmetric?

The first thing that must be recognized regarding all studies of this type is that it is unclear to what extent behavior in the LGM is a reliable guide to how much it will warm when CO2 is increased from its pre-industrial value. The LGM was a very different world than the present, involving considerable expansions of sea ice, massive Northern Hemisphere land ice sheets, geographically inhomogeneous dust radiative forcing, and a different ocean circulation. The relative contributions of the various feedbacks that make up climate sensitivity need not be the same going back to the LGM as in a world warming relative to the pre-industrial climate. The analysis in [Crucifix, 2006] indicates that there is not a good correlation between sensitivity on the LGM side and sensitivity to 2XCO2 in the selection of models he looked at.

There has been some other work to suggest that overall sensitivity to a cooling is a little less (80-90%) than sensitivity to a warming, for instance [Hargreaves and Annan, 2007], so the numbers of Schmittner et al. are less different from the “3ºC” number than they might at first appear. The factors that determine this asymmetry are various, involving ice albedo feedbacks, cloud feedbacks and other atmospheric processes, e.g., water vapor content increases approximately exponentially with temperature (Clausius-Clapeyron equation) so that the water vapor feedback gets stronger the warmer it is. In reality, the strength of feedbacks changes with temperature. Thus the complexity of the model being used needs to be assessed to see whether it is capable of addressing this.

Agloco
11-30-2011, 11:12 AM
The article shows why climate science is so misunderstood. They present it as a lowering of expectations while its actually right in the IPCC's most likely range and many IPCC models actually come in cooler.

Ag, this post many answer that question for you:

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2011/11/ice-age-constraints-on-climate-sensitivity/

Indeed it does. :tu

RandomGuy
11-30-2011, 01:38 PM
I wonder why the max likelihood is skewed? It would seem that the data is not normally distributed eh?

Perhaps someone versed in these matters can enlighten us.

I wondered that too.

Maybe WC can explain it?























:lmao
Anybody care to take odds that either Darrin or WC actually understand your question in the proper context?

What about it Darrin, can you tell me why the data is skewed?

Halberto
11-30-2011, 02:05 PM
Science is for the weak minded.

Wild Cobra
11-30-2011, 04:12 PM
So, the climate sensitivity is somewhere between 2 and 10? Hmmm, that's comforting.


Related
I find it funny how in their bias, they will state there is a slim chance it is 10C, but not state the low end of a slim probability. They go on to say "If that were true, disaster beckons." Why don't they even mention the low end of maybe 0.9C? Maybe 0.9C is wrong, but 10/3 = 3.333... 3/3.333 = 0.9.

Now I will be a little devious. Since some studies show CO2 cools, 10 - 3 = 7. 7 - 3 = -4. What is the linear or not linear relationship on the bell curve anyway?

Wild Cobra
11-30-2011, 04:15 PM
I wonder why the max likelihood is skewed? It would seem that the data is not normally distributed eh?

Perhaps someone versed in these matters can enlighten us.
I wonder what the low end is at the same probability as the 10C.

Agloco
12-01-2011, 11:34 AM
:lmao
Anybody care to take odds that either Darrin or WC actually understand your question in the proper context?

It would be nice if for once you left critical thinking at the door RG. Thank you in advance for your cooperation.

RandomGuy
12-01-2011, 12:18 PM
I find it funny how in their bias, they will state there is a slim chance it is 10C, but not state the low end of a slim probability. They go on to say "If that were true, disaster beckons." Why don't they even mention the low end of maybe 0.9C? Maybe 0.9C is wrong, but 10/3 = 3.333... 3/3.333 = 0.9.

Now I will be a little devious. Since some studies show CO2 cools, 10 - 3 = 7. 7 - 3 = -4. What is the linear or not linear relationship on the bell curve anyway?

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2010/4/27/1272369382532/1994-SPEED-005.jpg

Pop quiz, hotshot.

The study gave the 66% chance for the range given.

Perhaps you or Darrin would care to tell me what you think the 95% chance of the range to be inferred to be based on the analysis? (assuming normal distribution)

the 99%?

Agloco
12-01-2011, 12:21 PM
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2010/4/27/1272369382532/1994-SPEED-005.jpg

Pop quiz, hotshot.

The study gave the 66% chance for the range given.

Perhaps you or Darrin would care to tell me what you think the 95% confidence interval can be inferred to be based on the analysis? (assuming normal distribution)

the 99%?

I'll repeat:


It would be nice if for once you left critical thinking at the door RG. Thank you in advance for your cooperation.

RandomGuy
12-01-2011, 12:22 PM
I find it funny how in their bias, they will state there is a slim chance it is 10C, but not state the low end of a slim probability. They go on to say "If that were true, disaster beckons." Why don't they even mention the low end of maybe 0.9C? Maybe 0.9C is wrong, but 10/3 = 3.333... 3/3.333 = 0.9.

Now I will be a little devious. Since some studies show CO2 cools, 10 - 3 = 7. 7 - 3 = -4. What is the linear or not linear relationship on the bell curve anyway?

Speaking of being devious/bias, you did note that this study's analysis of the data determined that the value was at the lower end of the scale that the IPCC was looking at?

Wild Cobra
12-01-2011, 05:30 PM
Speaking of being devious/bias, you did note that this study's analysis of the data determined that the value was at the lower end of the scale that the IPCC was looking at?
Yes, I did. Some time back I have stated that numbers keep getting revised down. I wonder what the IPCCC's assessment will be in the AR5, and how they will justify them.