Chevy Volt disaster...

[CosmicCowboy]

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_VOLT_BATTERY_FIRE?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2011-12-01-14-56-43

GM offers to buy Volts back from customers at full price...

NEW YORK (AP) -- General Motors will buy Chevrolet Volts back from any owner who is afraid the electric cars will catch fire, the company's CEO said Thursday.

In an exclusive interview with The Associated Press, CEO Dan Akerson insisted that the cars are safe, but said the company will purchase the Volts because it wants to keep customers happy. Three fires have broken out in Volts after side-impact crash tests done by the federal government.

Akerson said that if necessary, GM will recall the more than 6,000 Volts now on the road in the U.S. and repair them once the company and federal safety regulators figure out what caused the fires.

"If we find that is the solution, we will retrofit every one of them," Akerson said. "We'll make it right."

The fires happened seven days to three weeks after tests performed by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. And GM has said there's no threat of fires immediately after crashes. GM also has said that no Volts involved in real-world crashes have caught fire.

Still, NHTSA has opened an investigation into the fires and has asked other companies that make electric cars for battery testing data. NHTSA said the safety testing hasn't raised concerns about electric vehicles other than the Volt.

"The fire broke out seven days later. Not seven minutes. Not seven seconds," Akerson said, adding that the company wants to fix the problem so people continue to have faith in Volts and other advanced technology cars. The company is notified of any Volt crash through its OnStar safety system and dispatches a team with 48 hours to drain the battery, preventing fires, he said.

"I think in the interest of General Motors, the industry, the electrification of the car, it's best to get it right now than when you have - instead of 6,000 - 60,000 or 600,000 cars on the road," he said.

The NHTSA testing, Akerson said, intruded into the Volt's battery pack by four to five inches, beyond the normal testing standard of about two inches. Then the cars were rotated 360 degrees to simulate a rollover crash. He said anytime there's a new technology introduced like the Volt, problems will arise. GM is dedicated to fixing them.

He conceded that the fires may cause some potential buyers to shy away from the Volt. But he added that GM is trying to get the message out that they happened only after extreme tests. Akerson also stressed that standard gas engine cars also have problems with fires after crashes.

The Volt can go about 35 miles on battery power before a small gasoline generator kicks in to keep the car running. The car can be recharged with a standard home electrical outlet.

The Nissan Leaf, a fully electric car and the Volt's main competitor, has not had any similar fires after crash tests or real-world crashes, Nissan said.

The Leaf battery is cooled by air rather than a liquid used to cool the Volt battery.

Akerson said investigators are looking at spilled coolant as one possible cause of the fires, although he said the coolant itself did not catch fire. Investigators are looking at everything from circuit boards to the way the battery cells are packaged into the Volt's larger T-shaped battery pack, he said.

Investigators have some promising leads but no conclusions yet, Akerson said.

GM doesn't expect many Volt owners to return their cars, given feedback from customers thus far, said spokesman Rob Peterson.

Earlier this week GM offered loaner cars to all Volt owners until the cause of the fires is found and fixed. So far, Akerson said 16 Volt owners have inquired and only two have taken the loaners.

[101A]

Using old Dell laptop batteries, no doubt.

That's bad news; VOLT is innovative and bold; something GM is not known for. Doesn't need to become the electric Pinto.

[coyotes_geek]

Definitely embarrassing for GM, but as long as they find a fix and do the recall that will be the end of it.

[boutons_deux]

solution will probably include more anti-impact steel protection = more weight = less mileage

[boutons_deux]

Why Chevy Volt sales matter less than you think

Consumer Reports this week reported that the Volt has the highest customer satisfaction rating of any new car. (That, however, was done before the NHTSA board opened an investigation in Volt battery safety.)

But when it comes to making "green cars" accessible to the masses, the Volt's leading-edge design is competing with many other technologies, including traditional hybrids, "mild hybrid" or start-stop technology, and fuel efficiencies in gas and diesel engines. As a result, sales of Volts have gone toward the early technology adopters and are likely to stay that way next year.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-57335462-54/why-chevy-volt-sales-matter-less-than-you-think/?tag=mncol;txt

[101A]

US needs to adopt Euro diesel and crash regs. LOTS of cars that get great mileage over there that we never see.

[boutons_deux]

VW Jetta TDI forums report 50+ mpg highway, Passat TDI also very good.

There's a real bias in Detroit against diesel, and even Japs who sell diesels in Europe don't offer them in USA.

My guess is that Oilcos are behind the "bias", spreading FUD about diesel.

Now that USA requires low-sulfur diesel, Euro diesels are very pollution free, no black exhaust, as well as quiet, torque-y, reliable.

US policy needs to reduce Fed tax on diesel, which tends to be more expensive than gasoline, while Euros promoted diesel by making it cheaper than gasoline.

And when will we see natural gas cars and infrastructure?

[George Gervin's Afro]

US needs to adopt Euro diesel and crash regs. LOTS of cars that get great mileage over there that we never see.

Socialist!

[coyotes_geek]

US needs to adopt Euro diesel and crash regs. LOTS of cars that get great mileage over there that we never see.

It is surprising that the EPA hasn't revisited the anti-diesel regs they put in place back in the 90s.

[CosmicCowboy]

It is surprising that the EPA hasn't revisited the anti-diesel regs they put in place back in the 90s.

True

You can blame the lack of high mileage diesels in the US squarely on the EPA regulations.

[101A]

Socialist!

You fail.

[101A]

VW Jetta TDI forums report 50+ mpg highway, Passat TDI also very good.

There's a real bias in Detroit against diesel, and even Japs who sell diesels in Europe don't offer them in USA.

My guess is that Oilcos are behind the "bias", spreading FUD about diesel.

Now that USA requires low-sulfur diesel, Euro diesels are very pollution free, no black exhaust, as well as quiet, torque-y, reliable.

US policy needs to reduce Fed tax on diesel, which tends to be more expensive than gasoline, while Euros promoted diesel by making it cheaper than gasoline.

And when will we see natural gas cars and infrastructure?

I would suspect US auto manufacturers would be behind the anti-diesel stance of the EPA. WAY behind on small diesel engine development; would get smoked (so to speak).

[Wild Cobra]

VW Jetta TDI forums report 50+ mpg highway, Passat TDI also very good.

There's a real bias in Detroit against diesel, and even Japs who sell diesels in Europe don't offer them in USA.

My guess is that Oilcos are behind the "bias", spreading FUD about diesel.

Now that USA requires low-sulfur diesel, Euro diesels are very pollution free, no black exhaust, as well as quiet, torque-y, reliable.

US policy needs to reduce Fed tax on diesel, which tends to be more expensive than gasoline, while Euros promoted diesel by making it cheaper than gasoline.

And when will we see natural gas cars and infrastructure?
The problem with most imports not offered in the USA is they either do not submit the car to required testing by US regulation, or they fail to meet safety standards by US regulation.

You should know this Boutons, as you are all in favor of regulations.

I'll bet part of the 50+ MPG is because they shaved so much weight off, it doesn't meet US crash test requirements. Do you think this is a probably reason?

[boutons_deux]

Do you really think the Germans and the Japs don't know how to build cars to meet US safety/pollution regs?

btw, ABS, 4-wheel independent suspension, radial tires on passenger cars were not American innovations.

[ChumpDumper]

So it's not a disaster.

[Wild Cobra]

Do you really think the Germans and the Japs don't know how to build cars to meet US safety/pollution regs?

btw, ABS, 4-wheel independent suspension, radial tires on passenger cars were not American innovations.
Absolutely they do. Do you think they are beholden to make all cars meet US standards? What if when they add some extra body structure and lose 2 MPG. Why should their market suffer over our regulations? Don't you think the only worry about their own standards for many of their vehicles?

The popular Nissan Skyline, and a sports car, was not available in the USA for some years.

The first planned year for the Lancer Evolution being released in the USA was delayed a year because it didn't meet the 5MPH bumper test. This may seem small, but the inter-cooler is right up to the bumper, so several thousands in damage occur.

[Agloco]

Definitely embarrassing for GM, but as long as they find a fix and do the recall that will be the end of it.

Unforunately for GM, most people will not look past "It caught fire.....".

[LnGrrrR]

Here's hoping this won't sink the Volt. I'm all for car manufacturers looking at more energy-efficient vehicles.

[ElNono]

It's called progress...

[boutons_deux]

What impedes electric cars the most is the high price tag, which would buy one very nice gasoline car.

A huge breakthrough in battery performance, weight, lifetime, before electric cars really get wide adoption.

And of course, the oilcos and VRWC will spew outrageous lies to hold back the tide.

electric cars could get a huge push if gasoline rose to $5+/gal, for whatever reason.

[scott]

With the Prius dual electric/hybrid coming out next year, the Volt isn't the proxy for this market as many thinks. I think the market for these vehicles will be fine

[greyforest]

The disaster was when the US government bailed out GM.

Let the best car win, indeed. The Prius, and soon it's plug-in version have won. Won is a bit weak of a word; utterly dominated the entire market in nearly every aspect is more accurate.

[boutons_deux]

The disaster was when GM killed the EV-1

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EV1

GM could have been right there at the starting gate with the Prius, and it would have been great horse race. But Prius got the jump as First Mover.

The game is not over. Prius only sets the target for other EV mfrs. The market will be way larger than today. All kinds of innovations are in the labs, like that heat-to-electricity conversion, and artificial photosynthesis splitting water in to H and O using sunlight, the inputs for fuel cells.

US burns 70% of imported oil on transport, and 70% of that is wasted in heat, not locomotion. Turning that heat into electricity would be game changing.

[xeromass]

I would suspect US auto manufacturers would be behind the anti-diesel stance of the EPA. WAY behind on small diesel engine development; would get smoked (so to speak).

GM owns Opel/Vauxhall, Ford has its european division, Chrysler had been married with Mercedes an now Fiat.

They all have modern diesels since the late 90s. Last to the game was Ford in 2000. On paper all they had to do was to either import engines or retool an US factory.




I'll bet part of the 50+ MPG is because they shaved so much weight off, it doesn't meet US crash test requirements. Do you think this is a probably reason?

Trolling much again?

So Europeans with all the nanny states and safety nets are are supposed to be driving around in cardboard cars in pursuit of a bit better fuel economy?

Lets test this:

basic US diesel Passat:
http://www.vw.com/en/models/passat/trims-specs.suffix.html/pageindex=1.html#/tab=52894c78ddd552e30b03cce1746aa3f4

(click on technical data - damn dynamic pages)

Weight: 3360 lbs

basic German diesel Passat:

http://www.volkswagen.de/de/models/der_neue_passat/ausstattungsvarianten.s9_trimlevel_detail.suffix.h tml/der_neue_passat~2Ftrendline.html#/tab=d871e8c896db9eeb0686e1aa3b91ce7c|trimlevel=0ca 54af0dee9fa84a86b46d8d5c19b67 (http://www.volkswagen.de/de/models/der_neue_passat/ausstattungsvarianten.s9_trimlevel_detail.suffix.h tml/der_neue_passat%7E2Ftrendline.html#/tab=d871e8c896db9eeb0686e1aa3b91ce7c%7Ctrimlevel=0 ca54af0dee9fa84a86b46d8d5c19b67)

(works for me but it's probably the cookie - so click around)

Weight: 1.532 kg

An if we put that in lbs it comes out at 3377 lbs aka. a bit more aka. the same crap.




50 mpg is on the low end but possible and surpassable if you are willing to function as moving chicane otherwise known as member of hyper-milers club.

Average number from (real German) Jetta owners is 37.63 mpg:

http://www.spritmonitor.de/en/overview/50-Volkswagen/540-Jetta.html?power_s=103&power_e=103 (http://www.spritmonitor.de/de/uebersicht/50-Volkswagen/540-Jetta.html?power_s=103&power_e=103)

[Wild Cobra]

GM owns Opel/Vauxhall, Ford has its european division, Chrysler had been married with Mercedes an now Fiat.

They all have modern diesels since the late 90s. Last to the game was Ford in 2000. On paper all they had to do was to either import engines or retool an US factory.




Trolling much again?

So Europeans with all the nanny states and safety nets are are supposed to be driving around in cardboard cars in pursuit of a bit better fuel economy?

Lets test this:

basic US diesel Passat:
http://www.vw.com/en/models/passat/trims-specs.suffix.html/pageindex=1.html#/tab=52894c78ddd552e30b03cce1746aa3f4

(click on technical data - damn dynamic pages)

Weight: 3360 lbs

basic German diesel Passat:

http://www.volkswagen.de/de/models/der_neue_passat/ausstattungsvarianten.s9_trimlevel_detail.suffix.h tml/der_neue_passat~2Ftrendline.html#/tab=d871e8c896db9eeb0686e1aa3b91ce7c|trimlevel=0ca 54af0dee9fa84a86b46d8d5c19b67 (http://www.volkswagen.de/de/models/der_neue_passat/ausstattungsvarianten.s9_trimlevel_detail.suffix.h tml/der_neue_passat%7E2Ftrendline.html#/tab=d871e8c896db9eeb0686e1aa3b91ce7c%7Ctrimlevel=0 ca54af0dee9fa84a86b46d8d5c19b67)

(works for me but it's probably the cookie - so click around)

Weight: 1.532 kg

An if we put that in lbs it comes out at 3377 lbs aka. a bit more aka. the same crap.




50 mpg is on the low end but possible and surpassable if you are willing to function as moving chicane otherwise known as member of hyper-milers club.

Average number from (real German) Jetta owners is 37.63 mpg:

http://www.spritmonitor.de/en/overview/50-Volkswagen/540-Jetta.html?power_s=103&power_e=103 (http://www.spritmonitor.de/de/uebersicht/50-Volkswagen/540-Jetta.html?power_s=103&power_e=103)
It's not the same car. Sure the chassis weight is probably identical, but the German version is different. It has a larger alternator and different engine specs.

Now 37.63 MPG is pretty good for Germany considering the average speed on the Autobahn is probably around 130 MPH.

[boutons_deux]

"the average speed on the Autobahn is probably around 130 MPH."

totally false. No speed limits but frequent congestion keeps avg speed way below 130.

[Wild Cobra]

"the average speed on the Autobahn is probably around 130 MPH."

totally false. No speed limits but frequent congestion keeps avg speed way below 130.
Did you live and drive in Germany for six years like I did?

Almost daily, I traveled from Gartringen to Vaihingen. For short times, it gets congested. Not regularly, because of the speed and right of way laws.

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x262/Wild_Cobra/satellite%20view/GaertringentoVaihingen.jpg

[boutons_deux]

you haven't proved your bullshit claim that the AVERAGE autobahn speed is 210 Km/H.

You're evidence that military service worsens innate stupidity.

[Wild Cobra]

xeromass...

Other differences between your two examples...

Front track, 1577 mm US version 1798 mm German version.

Rear track, 1549 mm US version 1766 mm German version.

Ground clearance, 137 mm US version 96 mm German version.

The US version has 1834 mm for width, the German version is 1820 mm, 2062 with mirrors.

If you really saw real German cars compared to their US market counterparts, you would know they are not the same just because the name is. One thing I found ironic is a US BMW 328 would be called a BMW 325 in Germany.

[Wild Cobra]

you haven't proved your bullshit claim that the AVERAGE autobahn speed is 210 Km/H.

You're evidence that military service worsens innate stupidity.
The traffic that can flow that fast does. I don't care if you believe it or not.

You ever drive in Germany?

I will adjust my claim to an average cruising speed on the autobahn is 130 MPH. I never intended that an average trip was that speed. German cars don't exceed 155 MPH. They have an governor that limits them to 250 KPH. It was no challenge to pass them in my Firebird that looked like Burt Reynold's Blackbird, but in blue, and no T-Top.

[boutons_deux]

"The traffic that can flow that fast does"

that's not an average

"You ever drive in Germany?"

yes, many times, all weathers, and I lived in Neu-Isenburg for 3 months. Obviously non-military, as my brilliant intelligence demonstrates.

[coyotes_geek]

Unforunately for GM, most people will not look past "It caught fire.....".

Maybe in the short term, but long term I don't think that's much of a concern. IMO, people who were inclined to be interested in a car like the Volt will give GM the benefit of the doubt and the people who hang on to the "it caught fire" part weren't ever really seriously considering the Volt to begin with.

[Drachen]

The traffic that can flow that fast does. I don't care if you believe it or not.

You ever drive in Germany?

I will adjust my claim to an average cruising speed on the autobahn is 130 MPH. I never intended that an average trip was that speed. German cars don't exceed 155 MPH. They have an governor that limits them to 250 KPH. It was no challenge to pass them in my Firebird that looked like Burt Reynold's Blackbird, but in blue, and no T-Top.



The average speed traveled on the autobahn in unregulated areas by automobiles not regulated by other laws is about 150 km/h (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_autobahns)

.... and yes I also lived in Germany.

150 kph = 93.2056788 mph


Oh, and Stau is a horrible problem in between cities. Going from Berlin to Munich, we got caught in it going both directions and it added about 1.5-2 hours to our trip. My host-family confirmed that this was a normal occurrence.

[Wild Cobra]

The average speed traveled on the autobahn in unregulated areas by automobiles not regulated by other laws is about 150 km/h (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_autobahns)

.... and yes I also lived in Germany.

150 kph = 93.2056788 mph


Oh, and Stau is a horrible problem in between cities. Going from Berlin to Munich, we got caught in it going both directions and it added about 1.5-2 hours to our trip. My host-family confirmed that this was a normal occurrence.
Sure, if you add trucks to the equation.

[Drachen]

Sure, if you add trucks to the equation.

You lived in germany for 6 years, you should know that trucks are regulated (i.e. they have a speed limit on all areas of the AB). Being regulated, they are not represented by the above statement.

[Wild Cobra]

I'm sorry you lived in an area that had such problems. I didn't. I would cruise between the Stuttgart, Mannheim, Frankfurt, and Landstuhl areas. It was very rare to have slowing in the traffic.

[Drachen]

Because of Germany's location in central Europe, traffic on the Autobahn is generally quite heavy. In 2008, motorists logged a staggering 225.3 billion kilometers on the Autobahn, averaging almost 50,000 vehicles per day on any given segment. As a result, traffic jams (Stau) occur frequently on the Autobahn, especially on Fridays, Sundays, holidays, and anytime after an accident or during bad weather or construction. Regional traffic reports, with a variety of names including Verkehrsmeldungen, Verkehrsdienst, Verkehrsfunk, and Stauschau, are excellent and are provided on most radio stations. Germany is divided into several traffic reporting regions (Verkehrsrundfunkbereich); signs along the road indicate the local radio stations carrying the traffic reports for the region you are in. You will need to have a working knowledge of German to understand them, though.


link (http://www.gettingaroundgermany.info/autobahn.shtml#traffic)


Just so you are aware the word "Stau" was created/repurposed by Germans specifically to describe the intercity traffic on the AB.

[Wild Cobra]

link (http://www.gettingaroundgermany.info/autobahn.shtml#traffic)


Just so you are aware the word "Stau" was created/repurposed by Germans specifically to describe the intercity traffic on the AB.
Looks like things have changed over there with the adoption of the European Union.

[Drachen]

Looks like things have changed over there with the adoption of the European Union.

When did you live there? I lived there in 96-97 and these things were true then.

[Wild Cobra]

When did you live there? I lived there in 96-97 and these things were true then.
Left in '92. I was in a stau once in my six years.

[ElNono]

GM, NHTSA Delayed Volt Warnings To Prop Up Sales

Lauren Weinstein excerpts the most interesting part (https://plus.google.com/u/0/114753028665775786510/posts/VvrCyMbtqT9) of a BBC story about the safety hazards associated with the Chevy Volt (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16066855) — specifically, the risk that its battery pack could catch fire after even a minor impact (http://tech.slashdot.org/story/11/11/12/1324253/chevy-volt-fire-prompts-safety-investigation-for-ev-batteries). While it might be unsurprising that GM was reluctant to shout out safety warnings that would dampen early sales of its much touted hybrid, according to the linked story the NHTSA was as well, and for the same reason: "Part of the reason for delaying the disclosure was the 'fragility of Volt sales' up until that point, according to Joan Claybrook, a former administrator at NHTSA."

[TeyshaBlue]

GM, NHTSA Delayed Volt Warnings To Prop Up Sales

Lauren Weinstein excerpts the most interesting part (https://plus.google.com/u/0/114753028665775786510/posts/VvrCyMbtqT9) of a BBC story about the safety hazards associated with the Chevy Volt (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16066855) — specifically, the risk that its battery pack could catch fire after even a minor impact (http://tech.slashdot.org/story/11/11/12/1324253/chevy-volt-fire-prompts-safety-investigation-for-ev-batteries). While it might be unsurprising that GM was reluctant to shout out safety warnings that would dampen early sales of its much touted hybrid, according to the linked story the NHTSA was as well, and for the same reason: "Part of the reason for delaying the disclosure was the 'fragility of Volt sales' up until that point, according to Joan Claybrook, a former administrator at NHTSA."
A. Nhtsa is being called on the carpet for this by congress....not for delaying as much as leaving out data from the report.
B. The battery pack will not catch fire after a minor impact.
C. GM was not reluctant to shout safety warnings that were utter nonsense.