Stinging Buck Harvey article on Jefferson

[Uriel]

“You know, in football, when there’s a pile and the runner is tackled?” a Spurs coach said not long ago. “Richard is the guy who runs in when the play is over and jumps into the pile.”

Read more:
http://blog.mysanantonio.com/spursnation/2011/12/03/reason-popovich-deserves-amnesty/

[objective]

I posted on the RJ amnesty thread a longer version here (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5492009&postcount=66), but here's the stinger for this thread:

... Harvey's piece today basically laying the groundwork for RJ to be amnestied, and we're good to go. Harvey is satisfying the usual requirements for the way the Spurs-SA Media works. The Spurs feed their agenda to the media, and the media pukes it into the groundwater to prepare the fanbase for the taste.

Then when it does happen, all the people who were just repeating, "RJ just needs a better system!" and "RJ is better than some 2nd rounder, even though he got tooled on by a 2nd round minimum player like Sam Young!" instead will be saying, "Yeah, RJ is like the football player who dives on the pile when the plays over! I like football, I like the Cowboys, and this RJ character just isn't good. CIA Pop is at it again, cutting off the barnacles and loose ends! Mario Elie was so tough, not like RJ!"

[silverblk mystix]

You missed the point here....the amnesty is for Popovich...


Pop screwed up just as bad in acquiring RJ...but POP always gets pardoned....it is always someone else's fault...or Pop brought 4 rings to the franchise....

or Blake's fave...."who else that is available now would you replace Pop with?"


Pop is the reason the Spurs didn't win 6 or 7 titles....THAT is the true way a winner looks at things....instead of ....Pop won 4 rings....we owe him...blah...blah

[objective]

the phrase "the amnesty is for Pop" is Harvey's way of advancing the Spurs agenda while protecting Pop.

It's telling the fans that it's not really Pop's fault, he should be celebrated and given amnesty from criticism.

It's not a legit knock of Pop from Harvey. It was Pop being fooled by RJ, Pop 'wanting to believe', Pop 'going against his instincts', blah blah blah.

This was an article to set people up against RJ (which they should have been anyway).

And if RJ doesn't get amnestied after all?

Well, no big deal then either for the Spurs in the media. Because the SA media is far too cowardly to use the anonymous Spurs coach quote in any future story. Think they're going to ask Pop or RC at camp about having a player who by their own staff's description doesn't give honest effort? Please.

[Fireball]

Pop is the reason the Spurs didn't win 6 or 7 titles....THAT is the true way a winner looks at things....instead of ....Pop won 4 rings....we owe him...blah...blah

Sorry, but that is a way a true WHINER looks at things.

[Giuseppe]

#'s 1,2,3,4...

Bomb diggity!

[Bruno]

E-N's Spurs coverage is just awful. :bang

[SenorSpur]

Normally one would have to search long and hard to find fault with one of the FO's decision, but for the life of me, I don't what Pop and RC were thinking. On the surface, the RJ signing looked like a perfect fit. Yet, he's been a "fish out of water" since day one.

I still think RJ is a good player, who could flourish on another team, and as part of another style of offense. Sure he's got his flaws - mentally and athletically now - but I don't think he's as bad of a players as he's been with the Spurs.

What makes this worse, as the article states, Pop was part of the coaching staff for the 2004 games, and knew saw RJ up close for many weeks. Why on earth did he go against his better judgement and sign this guy anyway?

I hate to admit it, but Pop and RC should both be roundly criticized for this one.

[ChuckD]

Sorry, but that is a way a true WHINER looks at things.

[TDMVPDPOY]

Normally one would have to search long and hard to find fault with one of the FO's decision, but for the life of me, I don't what Pop and RC were thinking. On the surface, the RJ signing looked like a perfect fit. Yet, he's been a "fish out of water" since day one.

I still think RJ is a good player, who could flourish on another team, and as part of another style of offense. Sure he's got his flaws - mentally and athletically now - but I don't think he's as bad of a players as he's been with the Spurs.

What makes this worse, as the article states, Pop was part of the coaching staff for the 2004 games, and knew saw RJ up close for many weeks. Why on earth did he go against his better judgement and sign this guy anyway?

I hate to admit it, but Pop and RC should both be roundly criticized for this one.

RJ has been shit since 04 olympic games when he signed that extention from the nets b4 the games, and he did shit all trying to live up to the contract ever since then caving in.......but the problem was fkn pop on the end of the tunnel running towards rj who thinks he still has it....

[dbestpro]

The problem for RJ is as simple as the chemistry between him and TP. RJ needs a distributing guard to do well. RJ does not do enough of the little things to complement a score first point guard. Most of TPs points are through penetration, which is also the best of RJs game. RJ has to sacrifice that part of his game to try and compliment the guards. Instead of succeeding he often has sulked and moped because he is because he is asked to do something different than what he does best.

Pop worked with him in the off season with an idea to change to Spurs offense to accommodate RJ. They did this for a few games and RJ looked pretty good. As the season progressed RJ was asked to do other things to pick up the slack of Blair and Bonner and everything just cascaded down hill from there.

The Spurs system needs a SF who excels at man to man defense, can hit the corner three, and get back on defense when the guards penetrate and miss. Attacking the basket and rebounds are nice, but is not what is asked from the SF in the Spurs system (unless Bonner is on the floor). The problem is the SF needs to be in two places at once when Bonner and Blair are on the floor at the same time.

[ElNono]

Hindsight is 20/20... I don't think taking a gamble on RJ was the wrong thing to do... especially for what we gave up for him, and the state of the team at that time.

That said, giving him that extension last offseason was. Even if you argue they didn't want to take the financial hit then, they certainly took the financial hit the last playoffs, and look to keep taking a hit as long as he's around. It was a shortsighted decision that now has the team on a bind.

Worst of all, I don't think there's going to be many suitors for RJ if he's amnestied, at least not that are willing to pay a good portion of his current deal (which goes to show how bad was it), meaning the Spurs would still be on the hook for paying that deal. On the other hand, with a lot of teams needing to fill up rosters, this might be the right time to do it. Difficult decisions all around.

[TimmehC]

I tend to agree that RJ is a pretty good player, but doesn't fit with this roster, or the style of play the Spurs employ. But, as the article says, Pop freaking coached him at the olympics. In other words, Pop already knew what RJ's skillset was, and still pulled the trigger on the trade and then extension.

Is having RJ better than Bruce, Fab, and KT all being gone to retirement without making a trade for replacements? Probably, but who knows what other moves they could have pulled off if they had waited instead of having such a knee-jerk reaction to the lack of scoring with Manu hurt in the 09 playoffs.

[DMC]

You missed the point here....the amnesty is for Popovich...


Pop screwed up just as bad in acquiring RJ...but POP always gets pardoned....it is always someone else's fault...or Pop brought 4 rings to the franchise....

or Blake's fave...."who else that is available now would you replace Pop with?"


Pop is the reason the Spurs didn't win 6 or 7 titles....THAT is the true way a winner looks at things....instead of ....Pop won 4 rings....we owe him...blah...blah
"The true way a winner looks at things..." ???


Like whom?

It sounds like an excuse more than an outlook.

What other small market team had anything close to the Spurs success that SA has seen during Pop's coaching tenure?

Small market teams do not win 6 or 7 rings with one core group. It's never happened, there's no reason to think it ever will.

In fact, since MJ, no single player has ever won 6 rings on any single squad. Kobe is the closest with 5 and they had moments of total domination and HOFers galore.

Pop didn't injure his players, didn't cause Manu to foul Dirk, didn't make the .4 second shot go in.

RJ needs to go, that much I agree with, and keeping him around was Pop's fault, somewhat, but you cannot say that Pop cost the Spurs 2 or 3 rings.

[DesignatedT]

You missed the point here....the amnesty is for Popovich...


Pop screwed up just as bad in acquiring RJ...but POP always gets pardoned....it is always someone else's fault...or Pop brought 4 rings to the franchise....


Yes, Pop and the FO screwed up on RJ... not just once but twice. That's pretty obvious.



Pop is the reason the Spurs didn't win 6 or 7 titles....THAT is the true way a winner looks at things....instead of ....Pop won 4 rings....we owe him...blah...blah



You're retarded.

[DMC]

Hindsight is 20/20... I don't think taking a gamble on RJ was the wrong thing to do... especially for what we gave up for him, and the state of the team at that time.

That said, giving him that extension last offseason was. Even if you argue they didn't want to take the financial hit then, they certainly took the financial hit the last playoffs, and look to keep taking a hit as long as he's around. It was a shortsighted decision that now has the team on a bind.

Worst of all, I don't think there's going to be many suitors for RJ if he's amnestied, at least not that are willing to pay a good portion of his current deal (which goes to show how bad was it), meaning the Spurs would still be on the hook for paying that deal. On the other hand, with a lot of teams needing to fill up rosters, this might be the right time to do it. Difficult decisions all around.
The Spurs would pay part of his salary but it wouldn't be counted toward the cap.

It's pretty bad when you would rather pay someone to leave than pay them almost the same to stay, but the Spurs need someone in that position who is going to perform.

It's all moot though. Tim is one and done likely and the "one" is going to be a farewell tour.

[DesignatedT]

The extension was where they messed up. Not trading Bowen and KT for RJ.

Other major programs also mess up like this quite often with bad contracts/extensions/trades whatever it may be, but it seems a hell of a lot easier for say, LA, Miami or a big market team to get out of this bind and move a player with a bad contract than it is for small market teams like us.

[DPG21920]

That's true. I don't see how ANY Spurs fan can fault the Spurs for trading for RJ. They are an amazing front office and invested heavily with the intention of trying to win. It obviously didn't work out, but as a fan I don't see how people can be upset at the original trade when it was made with great intentions.

Like many of us have said, it's the extension after seeing it was failed that you can have issue with. Without that, we wouldn't be in this position.

[lefty]

Sorry, but that is a way a true WHINER looks at things.

Then I'm a whiner too


Fuck Pop

[superbigtime]

I was 'thrilled' to acquire RJ with the trading of the old dudes, still hoping that Fab and/or Bruce would find their way back to SA which never ended up happening. But hopes and expectations quickly contracted during his first season. I don't fault the FO for the trade but like others am not pleased with his contract signing last year. Athletic though RJ may be, this dude is a softie and a mental midget and we have had a couple of those types for a while now especially in the playoffs (Red Rocket and G Hill). Trading G Hill for Kawhi will definitely pay off. The FO may be stupid with contract extensions and trades with many recent examples, but they know how to draft. Leonard will blossom into RJs replacement sooner than later if Pop just plays him. I don't care how much it costs the Spurs organization, Amnesty RJs ass and get players with balls, attitude and pride. Last years' playoff 'run' was a sad joke. Spurs were out muscled and out played. I just hope Pop shows some restraint playing 'small and athletically- and mentally-challenged ball' this year.

[Obstructed_View]

I wasn't in love with trading Bowen, just from a personal standpoint, and KT sure turned out to have a lot more left in his tank than anyone thought, but trading for RJ was an honest attempt to get an impact player to the team and was also a sign of the team's financial commitment to trying for ring number 5. No problem with that whatsoever.

There's nothing that can convince me that having a secret deal to let him opt out and re-sign him was a good idea. The Spurs had buyer's remorse about RJ and tried to lessen that hit by throwing good money after bad, while simultaneously telling RJ that he needed to really work on his game. Unfortunately you can't develop heart in the gym. Publicly critisizing the player that you signed to an extension is chickenshit. Also, it pretty much kills any chance you might have of trading him to a team who only looks at his stats.

[Dex]

Sometimes in poker, you make the right play, but the cards just don't fall for you. The Spurs made what seemed to be the high percentage move, but just got suckered on a bad beat.

Happens all the time, but just like in poker, the important thing is not to go on tilt and let it affect your next hands. Giving RJ another 3 years was the equivalent of doing that. The amnesty is the chance to correct that mistake.

[tmtcsc]

I didn't think it was stinging at all. It was completely accurate. RJ was never a very competitive guy. I thought it was a weak acquisition from the get and just hoped for the best. Pop and the coaching staff couldn't change what wasn't there. He started off great last year but then faded when he remembered who he was.

We didn't give up much to get him as far as personnel but we did hamstring ourselves as far as dealing with his salary.

He's been crap for us and has been a waste. Sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. This was an "L" for the FO.

[stephen jackson]

cant hate on the trade, we got him for almost nothing, we just expected way more out of him.
also the fault can also be blamed on parker if we had a distributing pg rj could have flourished and became great... maybe the problem isnt rj but tony parker.

[DPG21920]

No ^

[The Truth #6]

I agree with Objective in general and believe that this article looks bad for the Express News.

Moreover, the Spurs attitude toward the media in general is what I find really annoying - not something indicative of a "class organization".

While we're all amused when Pop tries to make the media look like clowns by showing his contempt and obstinance, to me it's sort of a slap in the face to the fans. Pop and the FO might not like the media, but they're there to relay something to the fans. It's not like the Press are throwing anything but softballs at Pop. Instead, the Spurs want to manipulate the Press and feed anonymous quotes when it serves their purpose. CIA Pop sounds great...except when he's trying to bamboozle the fans.

The amnesty for Pop suggestion is weak. Pop should take his lumps just like everyone else. It's not like most people blame Pop more than RJ for RJ's own failures. The fact that the Express goes out of their way to carry the Spurs' water is kind of bizarre to me, but it perfectly illuminates where the balance of power swings in the relationship.

But hey...if this means RJ is on the way out then hallelujah.

[Tyrone Jenkins]

Do NOT amnesty RJ this year.

I repeat: do NOT amnesty RJ this year.

This upcoming season will be a wasted year. Wasted in terms of not being a full season, wasted in being a way to get younger players to learn the system and let the farm system (Toro and overseas players) time to mature, etc.

Honestly, how many of you realistically think the Spurs are destined for a Championship THIS year? Sure, it could happen if everything falls into place perfectly but the odds are probalby like 40:1.

Keep RJ and have him work w/ the youngsters (Leonard and Butler) and prep them for next year. Start Anderson at SG and perserve Ginobili for a serious run next year (use him as the 6th man). Trade Blair for a younger, defensive PF option.

Then go out there and try and win one more for the Big 3. If it works, great, TD goes out w/ a bang. If not, then you amnesty RJ NEXT YEAR and have about $35-40 million under the cap to play with.

[therealtruth]

Pop made the mistake in getting an offensive minded player and trying to force him into a Bruce Bowen role. He changed the offense up earlier in the season to help RJ and it worked. He just didn't stick with it. The team is more dangerous with Parker scoring less and passing more and RJ scoring more.

[ChuckD]

I agree with Objective in general and believe that this article looks bad for the Express News.

Moreover, the Spurs attitude toward the media in general is what I find really annoying - not something indicative of a "class organization".

While we're all amused when Pop tries to make the media look like clowns by showing his contempt and obstinance, to me it's sort of a slap in the face to the fans. Pop and the FO might not like the media, but they're there to relay something to the fans. It's not like the Press are throwing anything but softballs at Pop. Instead, the Spurs want to manipulate the Press and feed anonymous quotes when it serves their purpose. CIA Pop sounds great...except when he's trying to bamboozle the fans.

The amnesty for Pop suggestion is weak. Pop should take his lumps just like everyone else. It's not like most people blame Pop more than RJ for RJ's own failures. The fact that the Express goes out of their way to carry the Spurs' water is kind of bizarre to me, but it perfectly illuminates where the balance of power swings in the relationship.

But hey...if this means RJ is on the way out then hallelujah.

Actually, it's dead on. The amnesty is all about the organization and never about the player. It's a way to erase one front office mistake, and it's pretty much been sold/spun that way.

BTW, the E-N has been nothing but the Spurs mouthpiece since 99, when Pop got O'Keefe run. If you're expecting anything else, prepare for disappointment.

[stephen jackson]

No ^
i think we could do better with a distributing pg. its not like tp is elite anymore... hes regressed mentally to the point hes almost at rj level
fuck em both

[itzsoweezee]

Then go out there and try and win one more for the Big 3. If it works, great, TD goes out w/ a bang. If not, then you amnesty RJ NEXT YEAR and have about $35-40 million under the cap to play with.

This is the only thing that makes sense.

I wish teams could trade their amnesty ability.

[JR3]

You missed the point here....the amnesty is for Popovich...


Pop screwed up just as bad in acquiring RJ...but POP always gets pardoned....it is always someone else's fault...or Pop brought 4 rings to the franchise....

or Blake's fave...."who else that is available now would you replace Pop with?"


Pop is the reason the Spurs didn't win 6 or 7 titles....THAT is the true way a winner looks at things....instead of ....Pop won 4 rings....we owe him...blah...blah

I'm going to call BS on this one... Everyone and their mom thought Pop and RC were golden when they picked up RJ. RJ just disappointed.. fooled us all. Pop has done some stupid things... Bonner's minutes are out of this world and I don't understand them.. but the RJ move is not Pop's fault. Pop even put in the extra time last offseason to work with RJ.

[8FOR!3]

You missed the point here....the amnesty is for Popovich...


Pop screwed up just as bad in acquiring RJ...but POP always gets pardoned....it is always someone else's fault...or Pop brought 4 rings to the franchise....

or Blake's fave...."who else that is available now would you replace Pop with?"


Pop is the reason the Spurs didn't win 6 or 7 titles....THAT is the true way a winner looks at things....instead of ....Pop won 4 rings....we owe him...blah...blah

Dude shut your damn mouth fuck man.

[Obstructed_View]

I'm going to call BS on this one... Everyone and their mom thought Pop and RC were golden when they picked up RJ. RJ just disappointed.. fooled us all. Pop has done some stupid things... Bonner's minutes are out of this world and I don't understand them.. but the RJ move is not Pop's fault. Pop even put in the extra time last offseason to work with RJ.

RJ was a decent pickup because he had a huge expiring contract last year. The Spurs instead convinced him to opt out and signed him for three more years, probably making him untradeable and damaging the shit out of their ability to spend money in the market on players for the end of Tim Duncan's career.

[DMC]

I'm going to call BS on this one... Everyone and their mom thought Pop and RC were golden when they picked up RJ. RJ just disappointed.. fooled us all. Pop has done some stupid things... Bonner's minutes are out of this world and I don't understand them.. but the RJ move is not Pop's fault. Pop even put in the extra time last offseason to work with RJ.
Especially considering this:

"I was a bit annoyed at Pop myself----but I always said---

Pop and the spurs should be judged at the end of the season---and NOT written off...."

Silverblk Mystix

[silverblk mystix]

Especially considering this:

"I was a bit annoyed at Pop myself----but I always said---

Pop and the spurs should be judged at the end of the season---and NOT written off...."

Silverblk Mystix

This was a while ago...(when everyone was writing off the Spurs and POP---MID-SEASON!) and I did WAIT and see what the team under Pop would do--yet again--

and at the end of that season...Pop continued to hide Splitter...overplay Bonner...and completed the season Pop's way....Pop's way for the last four or five years....


That was when I decided to judge Pop...after watching this movie year after year after year....


When will the rest of Spurs fans have enough?

[jag]

cant hate on the trade, we got him for almost nothing, we just expected way more out of him.
also the fault can also be blamed on parker if we had a distributing pg rj could have flourished and became great... maybe the problem isnt rj but tony parker.

I knew it wouldnt take long

[SA210]

Then I'm a whiner too


Fuck Pop

[GSH]

The Spurs feed their agenda to the media, and the media pukes it into the groundwater to prepare the fanbase for the taste.



Absolutely beautiful line. I may make it my sig. Pukes it into the groundwater... heh.


But just for the record - Jefferson jumps UNDER the pile.



I'm going to call BS on this one... Everyone and their mom thought Pop and RC were golden when they picked up RJ.

If you go back to ST archives, there were a number of people here who thought Jefferson was a good player, but didn't make ANY sense in this system. I was one of them.

[The Truth #6]

Actually, it's dead on. The amnesty is all about the organization and never about the player. It's a way to erase one front office mistake, and it's pretty much been sold/spun that way.

BTW, the E-N has been nothing but the Spurs mouthpiece since 99, when Pop got O'Keefe run. If you're expecting anything else, prepare for disappointment.

This isn't a discussion of what the amnesty is - that's obvious. I'm talking about the E-N going out of their way to defend Pop when he's not really under attack. You agree that the E-N is a mouthpiece for the organization, so I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. I know how the E-N has been for a long time. That doesn't mean I have to agree with it.