Gasoline: The new big U.S. export

[coyotes_geek]

CG: Found this interesting.

*************

NEW YORK (CNNMoney) -- The United States is awash in gasoline. So much so, in fact, that the country is exporting a record amount of it.

The country exported 430,000 more barrels of gasoline a day than it imported in September, according to the U.S. Energy Information Administration. That is about twice the amount at the start of the year, and experts and industry insiders say the trend is here to stay.

The United States began exporting gas in late 2008. For decades prior, starting in 1960, the country used all the gas it produced here plus had to import gas from places in Europe.

But demand for gas has dropped nearly 10% in recent years. It went from a peak of 9.6 million barrels a day in 2007 to 8.8 million barrels today, according to the EIA.

The drop was caused partially by the recession but also by the advent of more fuel efficient vehicles, higher prices and the greater use of ethanol as an ingredient in gasoline. Demand for other products made from crude oil like diesel and jet fuel has also declined, although not as much.

To be sure, the United States is still importing plenty of oil to make that gasoline -- and is still dependent on foreign countries for well over half the crude it uses. (Read: OPEC: We want clean energy.)

But now the country's massive refining infrastructure is producing more gasoline, diesel and jet fuel than the United States needs, freeing it up to be exported to places like Brazil, Mexico and Chile where demand is still strong.

The Wall Street Journal, which reported on the export trend last week, said the United States is on track this year to be a net exporter of refined products for the first time in 62 years.

"We've got plenty of excess refining capacity," said Jonathan Cogan, a spokesman for EIA. "It's a reminder that this is a global oil market, and it's reflected by the movements of products to where they will get the highest prices."

Mark Williams, global head of refining, trading and marketing for Royal Dutch Shell (RDSA), said exporting diesel and other refined products from the United States used to happen fairly irregularly but is now becoming much more common.

"It's growing as a new business," he said, although he cautioned that the United States would probably not become a huge exporter of fuel.

Still, the ability to export oil is good news for Shell and other oil companies like Exxon Mobil (XOM, Fortune 500), BP (BP) and Chevron (CVX, Fortune 500). They can use their extensive and modern refineries in the United States to make gasoline for the rest of the world.

But it may be bewildering for American drivers, who could experience record high gas prices next year even though U.S. demand could hit the lowest level in a decade, said Tom Kloza, chief oil analyst at the Oil Price Information Service.

"I can understand it, from a truck driver's perspective," said Kloza. "You're paying $4 or $4.50 a gallon to run your rig, yet we're exporting the crap out of this fuel. I'd be outraged too."

Still, he cautioned against restrictions on exports of diesel or gasoline, a move he expects politicians to at least talk about in 2012.

There's nothing forcing oil companies to bring crude to the United States to refine, Kloza said, noting that the refining industry employs thousands of workers. (Read: TransCanada agrees to re-route Keystone pipeline.)

"If you restrict exports, you'd really be looking for trouble," Kloza said. "You'd just see the refining and the jobs go offshore."

http://money.cnn.com/2011/12/05/news/economy/gasoline_export/index.htm?iid=HP_LN

[Drachen]

Ugh, damned if you do, damned if you don't. I guess I am happy that there is at least one category which brings money into the US from outside of the country.

[Winehole23]

wow

[boutons_deux]

So, again I'm proven right.

UCA invading Iraq, wasting 100Ks of lives, US and others, and garrisoning the M/E is to secure oil for the US/UK oil companies, NOT for Human-Americans.

I read that the Keystone XL was being brought all the way to Port Arthur because it's a tax-free enterprise zone where the oilcos could export directly to central/south America, with Human-Americans, lands, waters along the pipeline being exposed to spills but getting none of the taxes, royalties, etc.

Human-American risk, Corporate-American gain.

[coyotes_geek]

Predictably, boutons didn't read the OP before firing off another of his non-sensical non-sequiturs..........

[ChumpDumper]

So that's why no new refineries have been built in 30 years.

Another talking point bites the dust.

[TeyshaBlue]

Predictably, boutons didn't read the OP before firing off another of his non-sensical non-sequiturs..........

Shocking

[Spurminator]

Drill here! Drill now! Send to Mexico!

[coyotes_geek]

So that's why no new refineries have been built in 30 years.

Another talking point bites the dust.

???

[Wild Cobra]

Drill here! Drill now! Send to Mexico!
Looks like we really need the Keystone Pipeline.

[ChumpDumper]

???Not directered at you.

The talking point was that gas prices were high in no small part due to the fact no new refineries had been built since 1976. Turns out that expanded capacity at existing plants and now a fall in demand obviated the need for new refineries.

[coyotes_geek]

Gotcha.

[Blake]

First glance I thought the op meant that we are exporting oil.

Tricky.

[boutons_deux]

My post makes perfect sense.

The oilcos are threatening to obtain oil that US military and others die for in Iraq and sell it not to USA, but to refine it overseas and sell to foreigners.

[coyotes_geek]

Still haven't read the OP I see.

[RandomGuy]

???

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16281&page=17


You can see DarrinS faithfully regurgitating the "fact that the last oil refinery built in the US started up in 1976" on the previous page, and my response.

Darrin et al. bitch about the big bad environmentalists making it too hard to open a new refinery in the US, presumedly because of red-tape environmental regulations. With the obvious implication that if the dumb liberals just would shut up and let businesses do their thing, we could have new refineries and 50 cent gallons of gasoline.

Of course if the red-tape wasn't quite as bad as they like to think, and capacity was expanding without the economic need to build new ones, that wouldn't quite fit the "business as victim" narrative.

[RandomGuy]

Still haven't read the OP I see.

In addition to exporting gasoline:

The interesting thing is that the guy who was building the liquid natural gas terminal between TX and LA to import LNG, now is in the enviable position of having the import/export tide turn, and they will likely be exporting LNG.

Europe would love not to be under Putin's heel when it comes to their natural gas supply.

The natural gas production boom in the US took quite a few people by surprise.

[coyotes_geek]

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16281&page=17


You can see DarrinS faithfully regurgitating the "fact that the last oil refinery built in the US started up in 1976" on the previous page, and my response.

Darrin et al. bitch about the big bad environmentalists making it too hard to open a new refinery in the US, presumedly because of red-tape environmental regulations. With the obvious implication that if the dumb liberals just would shut up and let businesses do their thing, we could have new refineries and 50 cent gallons of gasoline.

Of course if the red-tape wasn't quite as bad as they like to think, and capacity was expanding without the economic need to build new ones, that wouldn't quite fit the "business as victim" narrative.

:tu Thanks. Not sure how I never found myself participating in that discussion.

[RandomGuy]

:tu Thanks. Not sure how I never found myself participating in that discussion.

Timing. it has been around, albeit inactive for a while. It is on my subscribed threads list.

Always good to see how ideological bloviating from one side or another works out.

[RandomGuy]

Going back to your OP, though:

Refineries appear to have allocated a lot of capacity to gasoline. That is why pump prices have fallen, even though oil is more expensive. (more supply relative to demand)

Had to have a giant mallet taken to my head by scott to get that concept (seperating oil prices from refined product prices) beaten in, but I did eventually glom on.

Now that I am paying attention, I would note that refiners have absorbed a good chunk of the run up, but that is not sustainable.

I would consequently expect gasoline prices to be up by this time next year, barring a real economic meltdown, that is scarily possible now.

[coyotes_geek]

I think the financial crisis is also playing a role here. Seems like it would be a lot easier to meet emerging market demand by using existing, under-utilized facilities in the U.S. versus trying to secure billions of dollars worth of financing to build new facilities in those emerging markets.

[Bobby Boucher]

Didn't we also just discover a bunch of oil in North Dakota as well

[TeyshaBlue]

Going back to your OP, though:

Refineries appear to have allocated a lot of capacity to gasoline. That is why pump prices have fallen, even though oil is more expensive. (more supply relative to demand)

Had to have a giant mallet taken to my head by scott to get that concept (seperating oil prices from refined product prices) beaten in, but I did eventually glom on.

Now that I am paying attention, I would note that refiners have absorbed a good chunk of the run up, but that is not sustainable.

I would consequently expect gasoline prices to be up by this time next year, barring a real economic meltdown, that is scarily possible now.

lol....the pain of scott's mallet is well known by this guy.:toast

[Winehole23]

The United States is awash in gasoline. So much so, in fact, that the country is exporting a record amount of it.Good thing, since retail deliveries have tanked (http://www.wealthwire.com/news/energy/2674?r=1.).

[DarrinS]

Not directered at you.

The talking point was that gas prices were high in no small part due to the fact no new refineries had been built since 1976. Turns out that expanded capacity at existing plants and now a fall in demand obviated the need for new refineries.




Fail

[DarrinS]

Going back to your OP, though:

Refineries appear to have allocated a lot of capacity to gasoline. That is why pump prices have fallen, even though oil is more expensive.


I'm just glad pump prices have fallen. I just don't know where these pumps are. $3+ for a gallon is just the new normal. Gas prices have risen 60-something percent under Obama and you hardly hear a peep about it.

[Winehole23]

it's the media's fault!

[CosmicCowboy]

Not directered at you.

The talking point was that gas prices were high in no small part due to the fact no new refineries had been built since 1976. Turns out that expanded capacity at existing plants and now a fall in demand obviated the need for new refineries.

Gas prices are high because oil prices are high. Pretty simple, really.

[ElNono]

Gas prices have risen 60-something percent under Obama and you hardly hear a peep about it.

Perhaps because gas also went down 45% or so under Obama?

[ChumpDumper]

FailYeah, you definitely failed there. Wild Cobra owned you.

Big of you to admit it.

[DarrinS]

Awesome

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/gas-prices-spike-60-cents/story?id=15519576


And "distance to refineries" directly affects the price.

[johnsmith]

First, let me preface this by saying I understand that the President has absolutely nothing to do with gas prices....it didn't when Bush was President, and it still doesn't with Obama as President.

Now, having said that, I'm really surprised the media hasn't started running already with the gas price stories. I honestly believe that this is the one thing that can prevent Obama from a second term, and I haven't seen shit about it except a blip on local Austin news saying shit's gonna go up.

[boutons_deux]

The Repugs will take $100Ms from the oilcos (who just announced record profits) and then slander Obama and the Dems as being responsible for the high gas prices that pay for the Repugs' slander.

[ElNono]

First, let me preface this by saying I understand that the President has absolutely nothing to do with gas prices....it didn't when Bush was President, and it still doesn't with Obama as President.

Now, having said that, I'm really surprised the media hasn't started running already with the gas price stories. I honestly believe that this is the one thing that can prevent Obama from a second term, and I haven't seen shit about it except a blip on local Austin news saying shit's gonna go up.

I'm sure the news stories will be there as spring approaches and the price escalates. Consumption (and thus prices) have always pretty much spiked in the summer.

[ChumpDumper]

Awesome

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/gas-prices-spike-60-cents/story?id=15519576


And "distance to refineries" directly affects the price.
Phil Weiss, senior analyst for energy for New York-based Argus Research, said the refinery closings were part of an industrywide move to reduce exposure to low-profit refinery operations. But the practical effect was to leave U.S. motorists with little or no supply cushion should any other refineries have to close because of mishaps or disasters.http://articles.latimes.com/2012/jan/31/business/la-fi-0131-gas-prices-20120131

So producers are voluntarily closing down refineries to increase profits.

Awesome, indeed.

[DarrinS]

http://www.mcall.com/business/mc-gas-prices-20120214,0,2776477.story?track=rss

Gas prices' earliest-ever rise above $3.50 a bad sign for motorists




American motorists have seen the national average for a gallon of regular gasoline rise above $3.50 a gallon on just three occasions, but it has never happened this early in the year. Analysts say it's likely a sign that pain at the pump will rise to some of the highest levels ever seen later this year.

In 2008, average gasoline prices had hit inflation-adjusted records nationally by the summer, but they didn't climb above $3.50 a gallon across the U.S. that year until April 21, according to the AAA Fuel Gauge Report. It happened again last year, but not until March 6.

But $3.50 a gallon gasoline is already here in 2012, weeks before refineries typically shut down for springtime maintenance, and weeks before the states switch from their less expensive winter blends of gasoline to more complicated and pricier summer blends.

"This definitely sets the stage, potentially, for much higher prices later this year," said Brian L. Milne, refined fuels editor for Telvent DTN, a commodity information services firm. "There's a chance that the U.S. average tops $4 a gallon by June, with some parts of the country approaching $5 a gallon."

Today, for example, the national average stands at $3.511, up from $3.480 a week ago, according to the AAA report, which gets its figures from prices compiled by the Oil Price Information Service.

The average in Pennsylvania is even higher: $3.63. According to GasBuddy.com, the cheapest gas in the Allentown area as of Tuesday was $3.49, at USA Gas on West Tilghman St.

There are plenty of reasons for the high prices, and lots of reasons to fear a big price spike in the spring, said Tom Kloza, chief oil analyst for OPIS.

"Early February crude oil prices are higher than they've ever been on similar calendar dates through the years, and the price of crude sets the standard for gasoline prices," Kloza said, later adding, "We've lost a number of refineries in the last six months (to permanent closure). Some of those refineries represented the key to a smooth spring transition from winter-to-spring gasoline."

Some cities, like Los Angeles and New York, are already closing in on $4 a gallon, said Patrick DeHaan, senior petroleum analyst for GasBuddy.com.

The current national average is also 38.3 cents a gallon higher than the old record for Feb. 13, which was set last year.

[boutons_deux]

Last year the predictions were that gas would be high this winter, and continue to increase throughout the year.

iow, the oil/gascos are manipulating the price, hurting the economy, (while enriching themselves) to defeat Barry.

[johnsmith]

Last year the predictions were that gas would be high this winter, and continue to increase throughout the year.

iow, the oil/gascos are manipulating the price, hurting the economy, (while enriching themselves) to defeat Barry.

I agree that they are manipulating price, hurting the economy, and enriching themselves, but I disagree that they are doing it to defeat Barry.

I think you're just a bit too long winded there because they are doing it for profit, and that is it. There is no underlying political reason, they are simply in it to make billions, regardless of who it hurts.

[Winehole23]

If the "oilcos" manipulated gas prices to benefit one party we'd see them driving prices down (and voluntarily cutting their own profit margin) to benefit that party when it's in the majority or faces reelection.

if energy companies actually do this it should be pretty easy to show.

[boutons_deux]

oilcos have $Bs in profits and a cartel to hide completely their market/political manipulations, hiring the best and brightest bean counters and lawyers.

It's not easier to show that traders at 30% to the price of oil or food or anything. All hidden, secret, but "legal".

[Winehole23]

they can't hide gas prices

[EVAY]

Geez guys, I don't know where all you've been getting your news, but increasing gas prices has been all over the local and national tv news where I am at the moment. They talked about how much gas prices have gone up in the last two months, and how high they are expected to go before then end of this year (record highs). They talked about the negative impact it will have on the economic recovery.


Thing is, gas prices have gone up every spring and summer for as long as I can remember. They go way up before labor day in anticipation of increased driving during the summer,and then drop after labor day because summer vacations are over.

The pattern of the timing of the increases is the same, but each time they go up, they go further up than they did in the prior year.

Having said all that, the OP was an extremely interesting article.

[CosmicCowboy]

Food grains have gone up even more than oil...and naturally, energy and food are excluded when calculating CPI (inflation)

[EVAY]

Food grains have gone up even more than oil...and naturally, energy and food are excluded when calculating CPI (inflation)

Do you (or does anyone else) know when the change in calculating CPI to exclude those items occurred? I know they make changes every few years, but I don't know when those went out.

[ElNono]

Apparently media wasn't hiding this story after all...

[EVAY]

Apparently media wasn't hiding this story after all...

Not where I am they aren't. It was complete at both national and local levels with the ever present interviews with consumers who are reacting to the 'pain at the pump' stuff. At the national level that included heating oil for northeastern folks.

My favorite was the guy in Colorado who said he hated the fact that it had gone up so much but he wasn't surprised by it. I thought "this guy has been paying attention."

[EVAY]

When I was trying to find out when the changes to CPI were made I went to the Bureau of Labor Statistics and they had all the historical press releases saying what the CPI was at each month, but not when the changes to the calculations were made.

They did indicate that energy prices declined for the last three months of 2011, which may be why some of the increase now is being felt so keenly.

[TeyshaBlue]

Do you (or does anyone else) know when the change in calculating CPI to exclude those items occurred? I know they make changes every few years, but I don't know when those went out.

I think they are still included in the CPI...it's core CPI that exclude those and a few others.

[EVAY]

I think they are still included in the CPI...it's core CPI that exclude those and a few others.

Thanks, TB.

[Winehole23]

Not where I am they aren't. It was complete at both national and local levels with the ever present interviews with consumers who are reacting to the 'pain at the pump' stuff. Whenever posters claim the media is hiding the ball at the behest of their putative political masters, the claim is almost always dispelled by posters who have been paying attention to the news, or who do a quick google search.

[DarrinS]

Whenever posters claim the media is hiding the ball at the behest of their putative political masters, the claim is almost always dispelled by posters who have been paying attention to the news, or who do a quick google search.


0RrvOKxW4-k

[johnsmith]

Whenever posters claim the media is hiding the ball at the behest of their putative political masters, the claim is almost always dispelled by posters who have been paying attention to the news, or who do a quick google search.

I think the only people claiming the media is hiding the ball is WC and Darrin......my point is, I don't think (and I consider myself pretty well informed), that the media has made a very big issue of the prices this time around.

Yes, there have been stories, but remember 08-09? It was on the front of every website, newspaper, and TV show for months at a time.

I suppose the $4.00 barrier had been broken and thus making it bigger news than it is right now, but the lead up and the inevitable result, to me, should make it as popular a story as it was then.

Also, pretty sure I just answered my own question.:p:

[Winehole23]

0RrvOKxW4-kAnd your point is?

I'm not a mind reader, and in no way does the coverage compiled in your youtube refute what anyone else has said in this thread. Gas prices still get plenty of run in the media.

[ElNono]

I think the only people claiming the media is hiding the ball is WC and Darrin......my point is, I don't think (and I consider myself pretty well informed), that the media has made a very big issue of the prices this time around.

Yes, there have been stories, but remember 08-09? It was on the front of every website, newspaper, and TV show for months at a time.

I suppose the $4.00 barrier had been broken and thus making it bigger news than it is right now, but the lead up and the inevitable result, to me, should make it as popular a story as it was then.

Also, pretty sure I just answered my own question.:p:

And that' because back then the price of gas broke the $2, $3 AND $4 dollar/gallon price levels, setting new historic highs.

http://www.randomuseless.info/gasprice/gasprice.png

[clambake]

i'm paying around $4.10 a gallon.

how bout you guys?

[ElNono]

$3.65 for 93 here...

[ChumpDumper]

93?

Richer.

[clambake]

93 octane? where you at?

[clambake]

where the hell do you get 93 octane?

[Agloco]

$3.65 for 93 here...


93?

Richer.

:lol

$3.37 for 89...or is it 87? Hell I cant remember.

[TeyshaBlue]

93?

Richer.

:lol


Paid $3.40 for 87 this morning.

[Winehole23]

Around $3.40/gal for regular. The cheapest in Austin right now is $3.29.

[ElNono]

93 octane? where you at?

New Jersey

[clambake]

New Jersey

i need more octane.

[ElNono]

Costco and most gas stations (Exxon, etc) sell 93 octane here (besides 89 and 87).

Wawa sells 92 as their premium.

[ElNono]

They use quite a bit of Ethanol though...

[clambake]

i can only find 91.

[DarrinS]

High octane is a waste of money

[clambake]

no it isn't.

[DarrinS]

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/tires-auto-parts/car-maintenance/premium-gas-a-waste-of-money/overview/index.htm




Many people use premium gasoline in the belief that it's better for engines than regular. That can be a costly mistake, especially during times of high fuel prices. Octane grades don't represent a "good, better, best" choice; they simply measure the resistance of fuel to knocking or pinging, a condition in which gasoline burns uncontrollably in the engine's combustion chambers. Knocking and pinging can damage an engine.

While high-octane formulations resist knocking better than lower octanes, most engines are designed to take regular gas, which has an octane rating of about 87. Engines requiring premium gas are typically the more powerful ones found in sports and luxury vehicles. Those engines use a very high compression ratio, making them more vulnerable to knocking, so recommended fuels have octane ratings of 91 or higher. Using premium gas in an engine designed to run on regular doesn't improve performance.

Some engines for which premium gasoline is recommended can run on regular without problems. That's because the engine's knock-sensor system detects the presence of uncontrolled burning in the chambers. When it does, the engine's computer-control system retards engine timing, eliminating the knock but slightly reducing power. If you don't mind giving up some performance, you can run these engines on less-expensive regular gasoline. To check whether your engine is capable of running on regular gas, read your owner's manual or ask your dealership's service department.

[clambake]

thats why its not a waste of money.

[CosmicCowboy]

High octane is a waste of money

Not necessarily. Premium burns cleaner, doesn't foul plugs, injectors, etc. I chipped my truck and have to run premium (unless I detune it) but when I keep my foot out of it the mileage increase with premium was almost enough to pay for the difference per gallon.

[ElNono]

Engines requiring premium gas are typically the more powerful ones found in sports and luxury vehicles. Those engines use a very high compression ratio, making them more vulnerable to knocking, so recommended fuels have octane ratings of 91 or higher.

I have a luxury vehicle that requires premium gas (or you get the pinging and knocking).

That said, it has actually saved me money from my old V8 Jeep that used regular fuel.

[DarrinS]

I have a luxury vehicle that requires premium gas (or you get the pinging and knocking).

That said, it has actually saved me money from my old V8 Jeep that used regular fuel.


No knock-sensor in your luxury vehicle?

[CosmicCowboy]

No knock-sensor in your luxury vehicle?

The difference between premium and regular is a lot more than just octane...it's also in the cocktail of additives. I don't care what consumer reports says, running premium is better for your plugs, injectors, carbon build up on pistons, etc. The worst thing you can do with a modern engine is run crap off brand regular gas...the pennies a gallon you may save will be more than spent on maintenance issues.

[Wild Cobra]

Apparently media wasn't hiding this story after all...
Maybe it's just that the .liberal talking heads who get their lemmings to complain aren't pointing it out. they did under president Bush, why not under president Obama?

Anything think there is bias?

[ChumpDumper]

Maybe it's just that the .liberal talking heads who get their lemmings to complain aren't pointing it out. they did under president Bush, why not under president Obama?

Anything think there is bias?:lol

[Wild Cobra]

The difference between premium and regular is a lot more than just octane...it's also in the cocktail of additives. I don't care what consumer reports says, running premium is better for your plugs, injectors, carbon build up on pistons, etc. The worst thing you can do with a modern engine is run crap off brand regular gas...the pennies a gallon you may save will be more than spent on maintenance issues.
Yep.

With how much better an engine runs on the higher grade gas, premium is a better buy. Especially if it's only 20 cents more, or less than 20 cents more per gallon.

[TeyshaBlue]

The difference between premium and regular is a lot more than just octane...it's also in the cocktail of additives. I don't care what consumer reports says, running premium is better for your plugs, injectors, carbon build up on pistons, etc. The worst thing you can do with a modern engine is run crap off brand regular gas...the pennies a gallon you may save will be more than spent on maintenance issues.
meh.
My daily driver is a 93 S-10. It's never seen a drop of anything over 87. It has 220,000+ miles on it and you can't even hear the engine at idle.Yes smartass. It runs.:lol
I've owned multiple cars and driven them > 200,000 with zero issues related to fuel composition.

[ElNono]

No knock-sensor in your luxury vehicle?

It does, but the tradeoff is loss of power (which is part of the reason you're buying a powerful car to begin with) and gumming up other engine parts.

The reason a no knock sensor is there is so you don't flat out destroy your engine by using low octane. It doesn't necessarily do away with the progressive damage.

[ElNono]

Maybe it's just that the .liberal talking heads who get their lemmings to complain aren't pointing it out. they did under president Bush, why not under president Obama?

Anything think there is bias?

:lmao

[TeyshaBlue]

:lmao

English is not his first language.

[CosmicCowboy]

meh.
My daily driver is a 93 S-10. It's never seen a drop of anything over 87. It has 220,000+ miles on it and you can't even hear the engine at idle.Yes smartass. It runs.:lol
I've owned multiple cars and driven them > 200,000 with zero issues related to fuel composition.

I'm happy for you. One of my best friends owns and independent mechanic shop and he is probably one of the best diagnostic mechanics in Texas...all the San Antonio dealerships use him as a consultant when they run across a problem they can't identify. He is the one that made me aware of the importance of using decent gas. I'm glad you haven't experienced any problems but he has made millions from the issue.

[TeyshaBlue]

Hmmm...he's made millions out of an issue. Interesting.

[Wild Cobra]

It does, but the tradeoff is loss of power (which is part of the reason you're buying a powerful car to begin with) and gumming up other engine parts.

The reason a no knock sensor is there is so you don't flat out destroy your engine by using low octane. It doesn't necessarily do away with the progressive damage.
LOL...

Loss of power means lower mileage too. The knock sensor allows the computer to adjust engine performance with the fuel grade. I think we agree with that. Still, the higher grade gas will give you better mileage with such a computerized system, and pay for itself. try it some time. Check your mileage with about three tanks of the gas you use now, then run about three tanks of premium and see the difference.

When gas was around $1.30 a gallon, the 20 cents difference in regular to premium was a ridiculous thing to pay if you didn't need it. That same 20 cents is worth paying with the gas over $3/gallon as it is a much smaller percentage.

[Winehole23]

Hmmm...he's made millions out of an issue. Interesting.Sounds like a very talented businessman.

[TeyshaBlue]

I'm not a mechanic with a shop. I have been tearing down engines since I was 6 however.

[CosmicCowboy]

Hmmm...he's made millions out of an issue. Interesting.

Valero gas specifically was one example. The guys running around buying the cheapest gas they can find end up with a lot of shit in their gas tanks. Then they go drop a tank of Valero gas in there which has VERY harsh detergents...the crap goes straight to the injectors and next thing you know they just spent $1000+ for new ones.

[Wild Cobra]

Like CC says, don't buy the cheapest gas.

When it comes to regular vs. plus vs. premium, the difference is that most newer engines control the power with the knock sensor(s). The higher the octane of gasoline, the greater the energy density. This is what makes the difference. At today's gas prices, this energy density increase is worth the 20 cents more per gallon.

[TeyshaBlue]

Ummm. no. The energy density is the same across grades.

[Blake]

Valero gas specifically was one example. The guys running around buying the cheapest gas they can find end up with a lot of shit in their gas tanks. Then they go drop a tank of Valero gas in there which has VERY harsh detergents...the crap goes straight to the injectors and next thing you know they just spent $1000+ for new ones.

So these harsh detergents aren't found in the super unleaded at Valero? Only the regular?

[ElNono]

Loss of power means lower mileage too. The knock sensor allows the computer to adjust engine performance with the fuel grade. I think we agree with that. Still, the higher grade gas will give you better mileage with such a computerized system, and pay for itself. try it some time. Check your mileage with about three tanks of the gas you use now, then run about three tanks of premium and see the difference.

That's what I said.

[ChumpDumper]

Like CC says, don't buy the cheapest gas.

When it comes to regular vs. plus vs. premium, the difference is that most newer engines control the power with the knock sensor(s). The higher the octane of gasoline, the greater the energy density. This is what makes the difference. At today's gas prices, this energy density increase is worth the 20 cents more per gallon.


Ummm. no. The energy density is the same across grades.http://annamargaritapinedaruiz.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/popcorn_gif_by_zombiejosette.gif?w=640

[TeyshaBlue]

typically less than a 10% variance in mileage tbh.

[Winehole23]

that gif. cracks me up :lol

[Blake]

meh.
My daily driver is a 93 S-10. It's never seen a drop of anything over 87. It has 220,000+ miles on it and you can't even hear the engine at idle.Yes smartass. It runs.:lol
I've owned multiple cars and driven them > 200,000 with zero issues related to fuel composition.

Took my toyota easily to 220k, parted with it with the engine still running nice.

Never once put a drop of super. Just made sure the oil was changed regularly every 5k miles.

[ElNono]

Ummm. no. The energy density is the same across grades.

I think it's another mishap on his english. He probably meant to say that the "energy density" is higher with higher compression ratios (internal combustion engines increase their efficiency with higher pressure).

[ElNono]

Took my toyota easily to 220k, parted with it with the engine still running nice.

Never once put a drop of super. Just made sure the oil was changed regularly every 5k miles.

Cars built for lower compression ratios shouldn't have a (much) problem with 87 octane gas...

[DarrinS]

I can't tell the difference between high/low octane in my vehicle (except the cost). I guess it depends on what you drive. Unless you are getting gas at some shitty gas station that doesn't properly maintain their tanks, I wouldn't think you'd have a problem with build-up.

[EVAY]

My car requires premium now, but I remember driving a Mazda in the late '80's to early '90's that was supposed to be able to drive on normal gas.
But whenever I put Shell regular gas into it the car would just stop dead in the oddest places (like the middle of the intersection!)...I had to use premium gas or else. I think it's worth the price difference for me.

But Teysha, if I were like you and able to fix my own engines, I would probably be happy to use lower grades of gasoline. I've always been impressed with people who can do that. Anything mechanical is beyond me.

[TeyshaBlue]

I think it's another mishap on his english. He probably meant to say that the "energy density" is higher with higher compression ratios (internal combustion engines increase their efficiency with higher pressure).

Those of us who haven't made millions off of this issue refer to this as Carnot's Theorem. It's a stepchild of the 2nd law of Thermodynamics.:rollin

[EVAY]

I can't tell the difference between high/low octane in my vehicle (except the cost). I guess it depends on what you drive. Unless you are getting gas at some shitty gas station that doesn't properly maintain their tanks, I wouldn't think you'd have a problem with build-up.

I always wondered if it was the east coast gasoline distributors who were screwing up their gas pumps. Couldn't get any decent beef from a grocery store there either...at any price! LOL! I was in D.C. and Maryland at the time.

[ElNono]

Those of us who haven't made millions off of this issue refer to this as Carnot's Theorem. It's a stepchild of the 2nd law of Thermodynamics.:rollin

:lol right. We just need an online WC to English dictionary...

[clambake]

i need to score some 93.

[ElNono]

Where you at, clam?

[TeyshaBlue]

But Teysha, if I were like you and able to fix my own engines, I would probably be happy to use lower grades of gasoline. I've always been impressed with people who can do that. Anything mechanical is beyond me.

I'm too lazy to do much of that anymore. Mainly just on our buggies.:lol But, I've never had a repair issue that was the result of cheap gas...period...even in my buggies and dirt bikes.

[DarrinS]

I always wondered if it was the east coast gasoline distributors who were screwing up their gas pumps. Couldn't get any decent beef from a grocery store there either...at any price! LOL! I was in D.C. and Maryland at the time.


I mostly go to Exxon or, occasionally Valero. I try to avoid old or dirty looking stations, if I can.

[TeyshaBlue]

Where you at, clam?

Neptune.

[Blake]

My car requires premium now, but I remember driving a Mazda in the late '80's to early '90's that was supposed to be able to drive on normal gas.
But whenever I put Shell regular gas into it the car would just stop dead in the oddest places (like the middle of the intersection!)...I had to use premium gas or else. I think it's worth the price difference for me.

But Teysha, if I were like you and able to fix my own engines, I would probably be happy to use lower grades of gasoline. I've always been impressed with people who can do that. Anything mechanical is beyond me.

You sure it was the gas and not your early 90s mazda?

[ElNono]

My associate here fixes all our cars, flat tires, etc. Can't even begin to describe what a money saver it is. Mechanics is his "hobby", although sometimes it definitely looks like a part-time job :lol

[clambake]

Where you at, clam?

socal

[EVAY]

I'm too lazy to do much of that anymore. Mainly just on our buggies.:lol But, I've never had a repair issue that was the result of cheap gas...period...even in my buggies and dirt bikes.

The correlation between Shell's 87 gas and my car dying at inopportune times was 100%, as was the lack of problem if I used better grades of gas. But I never had a problem with any other car. I use premium now because the manufacturer says to (and I'm always obedient to any authority...LOL).

[DarrinS]

I'm too lazy to do much of that anymore. Mainly just on our buggies.:lol But, I've never had a repair issue that was the result of cheap gas...period...even in my buggies and dirt bikes.

Don't know if your buggies are based on VW Beetle, but I owned a 74 Beetle, and doing mechanical work on it was just part of the VW ownership experience.

[clambake]

Neptune.

shut up.......buggy fixin parts changer.:p:

[ElNono]

socal

If you have to have it, you can probably buy some 100 octane race fuel and mix it up with 91... Not sure what the ratio should be though. Look it up online.

[TeyshaBlue]

shut up.......buggy fixin parts changer.:p:

A promotion for me!:lol

[TeyshaBlue]

Don't know if your buggies are based on VW Beetle, but I owned a 74 Beetle, and doing mechanical work on it was just part of the VW ownership experience.

Oooohhh..A Super Beetle.

Elitist!:p:

[clambake]

If you have to have it, you can probably buy some 100 octane race fuel and mix it up with 91... Not sure what the ratio should be though. Look it up online.

i didn't have to have it until i knew you had it.

this is an outrage!

[TeyshaBlue]

i didn't have to have it until i knew you had it.

this is an outrage!

Occupy the local Exxon, you git!

[ElNono]

i didn't have to have it until i knew you had it.

this is an outrage!

:lol

What you have to remember is that with higher altitude there's less atmospheric pressure, so the octane requirements are less. That's why you normally see lower octane ratings in places like Colorado. Not sure if that's what's going on in SoCal too.

[clambake]

Occupy the local Exxon, you git!

i'm gonna have to hire a shitload of hippies.

[clambake]

:lol

What you have to remember is that with higher altitude there's less atmospheric pressure, so the octane requirements are less. That's why you normally see lower octane ratings in places like Colorado. Not sure if that's what's going on in SoCal too.

so......i need to increase the atmospheric pressure.

eh, doesn't sound too hard.

[ElNono]

Just found this about SoCal:

Oxygenate blending adds oxygen-bearing compounds such as MTBE, ETBE and ethanol. The presence of these oxygenates reduces the amount of carbon monoxide and unburned fuel in the exhaust gas. In many areas throughout the US, oxygenate blending is mandated by EPA regulations to reduce smog and other airborne pollutants. For example, in Southern California, fuel must contain 2% oxygen by weight, resulting in a mixture of 5.6% ethanol in gasoline. The resulting fuel is often known as reformulated gasoline (RFG) or oxygenated gasoline, or in the case of California, California reformulated gasoline. The federal requirement that RFG contain oxygen was dropped on 6 May 2006 because the industry had developed VOC-controlled RFG that did not need additional oxygen.

[clambake]

Just found this about SoCal:

Oxygenate blending adds oxygen-bearing compounds such as MTBE, ETBE and ethanol. The presence of these oxygenates reduces the amount of carbon monoxide and unburned fuel in the exhaust gas. In many areas throughout the US, oxygenate blending is mandated by EPA regulations to reduce smog and other airborne pollutants. For example, in Southern California, fuel must contain 2% oxygen by weight, resulting in a mixture of 5.6% ethanol in gasoline. The resulting fuel is often known as reformulated gasoline (RFG) or oxygenated gasoline, or in the case of California, California reformulated gasoline. The federal requirement that RFG contain oxygen was dropped on 6 May 2006 because the industry had developed VOC-controlled RFG that did not need additional oxygen.

don't hand me that shit. i want what i want!

[Agloco]

The higher the octane of gasoline, the greater the energy density. This is what makes the difference. At today's gas prices, this energy density increase is worth the 20 cents more per gallon.

http://www.sweary.com/dailyfun/wp-content/uploads/picard-o-rly.jpg

[Wild Cobra]

OK, I can't find the reference that once was. It all depends on what is used to change the octane rating of gasoline. I will still look for the reference, but it seems all I can find don't break it down by rating like in the past.

[Wild Cobra]

Gasoline isn't one molecule only. The primary paraffins range from C5H12 to C10H22. Pentane has 28.39 MJ/liter while Decane has 33.29 MJ/liter of energy density. Higher octane gasoline used to have blends that also had higher energy densities. With mandated fuel mixtures today, that might not be true any longer. Regardless, I haven't found a link to prove what was once true.

[TeyshaBlue]

So, in other words, you were incorrect. Got it.

[Borat Sagyidev]

Like CC says, don't buy the cheapest gas.

When it comes to regular vs. plus vs. premium, the difference is that most newer engines control the power with the knock sensor(s). The higher the octane of gasoline, the greater the energy density. This is what makes the difference. At today's gas prices, this energy density increase is worth the 20 cents more per gallon.


That's what I said.


OK, I can't find the reference that once was. It all depends on what is used to change the octane rating of gasoline. I will still look for the reference, but it seems all I can find don't break it down by rating like in the past.


Gasoline isn't one molecule only. The primary paraffins range from C5H12 to C10H22. Pentane has 28.39 MJ/liter while Decane has 33.29 MJ/liter of energy density. Higher octane gasoline used to have blends that also had higher energy densities. With mandated fuel mixtures today, that might not be true any longer. Regardless, I haven't found a link to prove what was once true.

Just shut up. The entire internet at your power to figure that one out and you're still a failure
:idiot

Some higher octane gases have less sulfur content by design, particularly in Mexico. Less soot and high compression ratios may produce some extra work out, but you're over generalizing as usual.

Most issues with the air-fuel ratios do not arise from the knock sensor but by the oxygen sensor which controls air-fuel mix with higher variability. variable ethanol usage in gas is one of the reasons for this.

[ElNono]

^ You misquoted me.

[Wild Cobra]

Just shut up. The entire internet at your power to figure that one out and you're still a failure
:idiot

Some higher octane gases have less sulfur content by design, particularly in Mexico. Less soot and high compression ratios may produce some extra work out, but you're over generalizing as usual.

Most issues with the air-fuel ratios do not arise from the knock sensor but by the oxygen sensor which controls air-fuel mix with higher variability. variable ethanol usage in gas is one of the reasons for this.
The reformulation of gasoline over the years seems to have taken the advantage out of higher octane gasoline. That's about it from what I was arguing. I will stand corrected. You however, are being an ass.

[Winehole23]

lapdog media hides the ball (http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-gas-prices-20120214,0,2523563.story)

[clambake]

just bought gas. $4.35.9 a gallon. diesel was at $4.39.9 a gallon.

[clambake]

i bought gas on the 14th for $4.10 a gallon. 25 cent bump in 2 days.