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RandomGuy
12-06-2011, 02:13 PM
Has the federal government run out of money? Will we have to slash Social Security? Will we have to borrow dollars from China for our children to pay back?

The national debate over fiscal responsibility and sustainability is entering a new, critical phase. Today, an 18-member bipartisan commission to examine the government’s fiscal problem will meet for the first time. Everything is on the table, including Social Security and Medicare.


With so much at stake, the time has come to examine our fundamental assumptions about government deficits and debt. The danger of accepting oft-repeated orthodoxies has been clearly demonstrated in the recent financial crisis. For decades, free market fundamentalism went virtually unquestioned, and we’ve all seen the result - an epic economic catastrophe. We can’t afford to make the same mistake on fiscal responsibility. It’s time to consider alternatives perspectives before we rush down potentially destructive policy paths that could compromise our future.
The Roosevelt Institute’s New Deal 2.0 asked seven economic thinkers to address what they see as the most dangerous myths currently circulating on the deficit. Several of these experts will be on hand to educate the public on April 28, 2010 at George Washington University in Washington, D.C. at a “Fiscal Sustainability Teach-In.”

Myth #1: The government should balance its books like a private household.
Reality: Our federal government is the issuer of the currency, which makes its budget fundamentally different than the average citizen’s.
Discussion of government budget deficits often begins with an analogy to a household’s budget. People say: “No household can continually spend more than its income, and neither can the federal government”. But there are big differences between a household and the federal government. You don’t have the ability to print money in your living room, do you? Well, the government does. So how it finances its own debt and spending is different from the way you do.
A government is the issuer of the currency. The household, on the other hand, is the user. Households are restricted by the need to somehow get money into their bank accounts, or their checks will bounce. The federal government, by contrast, doesn’t “have” or “not have” dollars. There is no vault or lock box where it “keeps” its money. In fact, it makes all of its payments simply by electronically crediting private bank accounts and there is no practical limit to which it can change those numbers up. Spending by the federal government always creates new money in the system, while taxation destroys it. When households and firms pay taxes, the money does not go anywhere; the government simply debits those private bank accounts by electronically reducing the amount of reserves they hold, i.e., by changing the numbers in those bank accounts down.
Government is constrained only by the inflation it can create by over-spending, but its ability to spend is numerically unlimited. Households are constrained by their ability to get dollars from some form income and from borrowing, and both of those have real limits.

~Pavlina R. Tcherneva, Assistant Professor, Franklin and Marshall College

Myth #2: Fixing Social Security and Medicare will require “tough choices”.Reality: Social Security and Medicare are not facing a financial crisis.
A new poll by the Pew Research Center suggests that nearly 80% of Americans don’t trust the federal government. Unfortunately, we appear all-too-willing to trust the government when it tells us that Social Security and Medicare are heading for bankruptcy. Indeed, the same poll shows that fewer than half of us now hold a favorable opinion of the Social Security Administration (down 13% from a decade ago). No wonder. The drumbeat over the so-called “crisis” facing Social Security and Medicare has reached a fever pitch.
The government’s message is clear: Both programs face significant trouble ahead, due primarily to the aging of our population. In order to deal with the looming problems, we will have to make “tough choices.” Not everyone can have the money they were promised.
If you’ve been around a while, you’ve heard this all before. Remember the Greenspan Commission? This is the group that President Reagan appointed to “fix” Social Security in the early 1980s, the last time the system was on the brink of “collapse.” Thanks to the “reforms” that were enacted in 1983, Americans are working longer (they raised the retirement age) and paying more (they accelerated increases in the payroll tax rate). And now we’re being told it was all for nothing — the system is broken again?
The truth is, the system was never broken in the first place, because the government’s ability to pay benefits does not in any way depend on the balance in the Social Security or Medicare Trust Funds. Benefit checks come directly from the Treasury, and, as Alan Greenspan has admitted, “[A] government cannot become insolvent with respect to obligations in its own currency.”
And so the question is not whether the government needs to make “tough choices” in order to keep these vital programs afloat. The question is, will politicians make the toughest choice of all and tell the American people the truth: Social Security and Medicare face no financial crisis now or in the future.

~Stephanie Kelton, Associate Professor, University of Missouri-Kansas City, Missouri

Myth #3: We are passing on debt to our grandchildren.
Reality: Payments on Treasury securities are a matter of data entry, not a financial burden.
Most people don’t realize that government debt — Treasury securities — are nothing more than savings accounts at the Federal Reserve Bank in Washington.
There are about 13 trillion dollars in Treasury securities at the Fed. Collectively, these savings accounts are known as the national debt. The national debt represents a portion of the combined savings of US residents, corporations, banks, and foreign governments. And most folks probably don’t know that when a person buys them, the Fed simply transfers the dollars from her checking account to a savings account at the Fed called a “Treasury security.”
Tens of billions of dollars of these Treasury securities come due every week. When that happens, the Fed pays off that “debt” simply by transferring the dollars, plus interest, out of these savings accounts and back to the holders’ checking accounts.
In the future, when our grandkids make payments on Treasury securities, they will simply credit accounts at the Fed-just as we do today, and as our grandparents did before us. It is a simple matter of data entry, and not a financial burden.
If the government spends and taxes wisely today, our grandchildren inherit roads, dams, parks, public buildings, and, most importantly, an educated and healthier workforce. These things are admittedly hard to value precisely-but there can be no doubt that our grandkids will be much better off having been born into a society that has modern infrastructure and services that our government policies can help to provide.

~Randall Wray, Professor of Economics, University of Missouri-Kansas City, Missouri

MYTH #4: What we don’t tax we have to borrow from the likes of China for our children to pay back.

Reality: Paying our debt holders back consists of transferring funds between accounts.
One constantly hears that the Chinese (and other external creditors) “fund” our deficit. The folklore is that when China finally sells off its US bond holdings, those yields will sky-rocket. The dollar will then crash, no one else will want the debt, and it will be the end of America as we know it.
To debunk this myth, you need to know two things. First, all foreign governments have checking accounts at the Federal Reserve Bank called “reserve accounts.” Second, US Treasury securities are nothing more than savings accounts at the same Federal Reserve Bank.
How does China get its dollars? It sells things to us. And when China gets paid, those dollars go into China’s checking account at the Federal Reserve Bank.
And when China buys US Treasury securities, what happens? The Fed transfers China’s dollars in its checking account at the Fed to its savings account at the Fed. We call that “borrowing from China” and “going into debt to China.” But it’s not really “borrowing” in the sense of creating an external constraint whereby we have to defer spending to “pay back” China. The Fed simply pays off China’s “debt” by transferring the dollars, plus interest, back to the holder’s checking account, which it can create at the stroke of a keyboard as the monopoly issuer of dollars.
The dollars are nothing more than data entry on the Fed’s computer. They have no other existence. And it has no impact on the government’s ability to spend as to whether China’s dollars are in their checking account or savings account.
All we owe China is a bank statement that shows them where their dollars are. Sadly, they know this. But they also know that we think we are dependent on them, and take advantage of our error.

~Marshall Auerback, Senior Fellow at the Roosevelt Institute and Warren Mosler, President, Valance Co.

Myth #5: The government must tax or borrow to get money to spend.
Reality: Government spending is not constrained by revenue.
As explained above, the Federal government neither “has” nor “doesn’t have” dollars. The government spends by creating new money and taxes by destroying money, which simply involves changing numbers in bank accounts. Suppose the government pays Social Security benefits to a retired teacher, Mrs. Jones, in the amount of $1,500 a month. At the end of the month, the checking account of Mrs. Jones is credited by $1,500. Did the government need your tax revenue to pay Mrs. Jones? No! It simply changed the numbers up in Mrs. Jones’s bank account, basically creating new money. On April 15 Mrs. Jones sends a check to the IRS to pay her taxes. When the government gets the check, what does it do? It simply changes numbers down in Mrs. Jones’s bank account, destroying the money.
What about selling government bonds, which is mistakenly called borrowing? These are simply interest-earning assets, similar to a savings account. Suppose Mrs. Jones has $1,000 dollars in her checking account on which she would rather earn interest. So she buys a Treasury security. What happens? Basically a bond sale involves moving funds from checking accounts to savings accounts (Treasuries) at the Federal Reserve Bank.
So if the government doesn’t need to tax to be able to spend, why does it tax at all? There are two reasons. First, the government creates demand for its currency through taxation. If the public didn’t need the dollars to pay its taxes, it wouldn’t be willing to sell goods and services to the government in return for pieces of paper (or numbers in a checking account). Taxes, then, are what give value to money. Second, the government uses taxes to control the public’s spending power. When the public has too much spending power, government taxes some of it away to avoid inflation. When there is too little spending so that unemployment results, it lowers taxes to boost private spending.
Any and all financial constraints on government spending such as issuing government bonds dollar for dollar against deficit spending, debt ceilings, and restrictions on the Fed’s ability to buy treasury securities are purely political and necessarily self imposed, because they are imposed on us by our chosen institutional arrangements and not by something inherent in our economic system.

~Yeva Nersisyan, Doctoral candidate in economics, University of Missouri-Kansas City, Missouri

Myth #6: Deficits and government borrowing takes away savings.Reality: Deficits add to income and savings.
The truth is that deficits add to the total monetary savings held outside of government. To the penny. That’s right, if the government deficit was 1 trillion dollars last year, then total net savings of everyone outside of government went up by 1 trillion. Not a penny more or a penny less.
Let’s look at a simple transaction where the government deficit spends $100. Say the government sells US $100 of new treasury securities. We buy them and our bank account goes down by $100 when we pay for them, but we have the $100 of treasury securities we bought. Are we any poorer? Of course not! In fact, since we bought the securities voluntarily, we probably did it because we think that purchase made us richer. All we did was exchange $100 that was in our checking account for a $100 Treasury security.
After we pay the $100 for the Treasury securities, the next thing that happens is the government then spends $100 by buying something from us. So we now have both the $100 the government just spent and the $100 of Treasury securities we just bought.
So because of the $100 of deficit spending, we got our $100 back in our checking account, and we also have $100 in Treasury securities. Our monetary wealth is now $100 more than it was before.
The deficit spending of $100 added $100 to our savings. Yet all of our leaders insist that deficits take away from our savings.
You can now understand the reason our savings went up so much last year. It was because the government deficit was so much higher. Now you know more about that than anyone on TV.

~Warren Mosler, President, Valance Co.

Myth #7: We’ll end up just like Weimar Germany or Zimbabwe.
Reality: Hyperinflation in both countries was caused by circumstances far different than ours.
The minute you challenge the assumption that the government should not spend when it has a large deficit, out comes the charge that we’ll get some horrible hyperinflationary outcome like Weimar Germany or Zimbabwe.
Yes, once the economy gets to full employment, then extra government deficit spending can start driving up prices. But what happened in Weimar Germany was very different. During that time, the government was forced to pay extremely large war reparations in foreign currencies which it didn’t have. So it had to aggressively sell its own currency and buy the foreign currency in the financial markets. This relentless selling continuously drove down the value of its currency, causing prices of goods and services to go ever higher in what became one of the most famous inflations of all time. By 1919, the German budget deficit was equal to half of GDP, and by 1921, war reparation payments represented one third of government spending. And guess what? On the very day that government stopped paying the war reparations and selling its own currency to buy foreign currency, the hyperinflation stopped.
In Zimbabwe, the situation is also very different from ours. There, the conditions for hyperinflation were caused by the destruction of nearly half of the country’s domestic food production via misguided land reforms, plus a civil war which eliminated much of the economy’s productive manufacturing capacity. In response to food shortages, the Bank of Zimbabwe used valuable foreign exchange reserves to buy imported food, leading to a lack of foreign currency to purchase essential raw materials. Manufacturing output collapsed, but the government used much of the remaining foreign exchange to dole out political favors, rather than adding to the country’s productive capacity. The end result was inflation and then hyperinflation.
In the US, hyperinflation will not be an issue if the government spends while it has a large deficit because with high unemployment and unused yet functioning factories all across the country, there is plenty of room to cut taxes and/or increase spending to get us to full employment. This is true no matter what the size of the federal deficit. Ultimately, inflation (and then hyperinflation) is about competing distributive claims over real resources, such as oil, gas, water, etc. A “sustainable” fiscal policy, especially with respect to hyperinflationary risks, then, is really about both the establishment of full employment and the implementation of well-crafted policies which deal with the constraints created by, for example, depleting natural resources.

~Marshall Auerback, Senior Fellow at the Roosevelt Institute and Rob Parenteau, sole proprietor of MacroStrategy Edge

MYTH #8: Government spending increases interest rates and ‘crowds out’ valuable private sector investment.
Reality: Banks can lend essentially without limit, and the Fed can hit any interest rate target it chooses.
Ask an economist what determines the interest rate, and she’ll probably mutter something about supply and demand or “market forces.” Ask the same economist what determines the level of saving and investment, and the answer probably won’t change very much. This is because most economists were trained using textbooks that have not been rewritten since the United States went off the gold standard after WWII.
Back then, we had a monetary system that really did limit the growth of the money supply, and too much government spending really could force rates higher and crowd out other forms of spending. It is all based on something economists know as Loanable Funds Theory, which describes a market in which there is some limited pool of savings available to satisfy the demand for credit. Thus, deficit spending required the government to compete (with private borrowers) for a portion of these limited resources. Because the capacity to lend was constrained under the gold standard, the added competition could drive borrowing costs (i.e. the interest rate) higher.
Decades later, the monetary system looks completely different. But economists continue to treat governments as if they are the users of the currency (as opposed to the issuers) and to treat banks as passive money lenders — there simply to broker deals between savers and borrowers. In truth, banks can lend essentially without limit, regardless of what the federal government is doing, and the Federal Reserve can hit any interest rate target it chooses.

~Stephanie Kelton, Associate Professor, University of Missouri-Kansas City, Missouri

Myth #9: The money spent paying interest on the national debt could be spent elsewhere.
Reality: Interest rates can easily be brought to zero and are not an obstacle to federal spending.
Government spending is not operationally constrained by revenues (as outlined above). So interest payments are not an obstacle to any other payments. Further, the Fed (a branch of government) sets the overnight rate-thus, it is a policy variable and can be set wherever policy wants to set it. Right now short term rates are set near 0%, and the Fed could leave them there permanently, which would bring down interest on Treasury securities to near 0%. Finally, Treasury can elect to issue only 3 month bills, which would bring government interest payments towards 0 over time.
Conclusion: Interest on the debt is not currently an obstacle to increased federal spending and/or tax cuts. And it’s a very simple matter to bring interest payments down to 0 in any case.

~Randall Wray, Professor of Economics, University of Missouri-Kansas City, Missouri

Winehole23
12-06-2011, 02:22 PM
I never heard of myths 4-7 before.

lol leaving interest rates permanently at zero to win the point.

Winehole23
12-06-2011, 02:26 PM
http://images.travelpod.com/users/dancejill/1.1248792944.9-pin-bowling.jpg

CosmicCowboy
12-06-2011, 02:30 PM
An incredibly simplistic view considering it is coming from alleged academics. Just saying "we control the printing press so deficits and deficit spending are not a problem" is intellectually dishonest.

It's like a doctor claiming he can kill any type of cancer but failing to mention that the patient has to die too...

Winehole23
12-06-2011, 02:33 PM
it's a real position. it's basically the Jamie Galbreath position, that there are no real dollars and no real fiscal dangers involved. it's all notional, see...data entry

Winehole23
12-06-2011, 02:34 PM
Dan, I'm looking squarely in your direction

Winehole23
12-06-2011, 02:41 PM
why's everyone getting so upset about statistical abstractions anyway?

Winehole23
12-06-2011, 02:55 PM
(shuts up and eats his gruel)

coyotes_geek
12-06-2011, 02:57 PM
None of that is very convincing. All of it seems to operate under the assumption that we can print all the money we want free of any negative reprocussions.

coyotes_geek
12-06-2011, 03:01 PM
Myth #3: We are passing on debt to our grandchildren.
Reality: Payments on Treasury securities are a matter of data entry, not a financial burden.
Most people don’t realize that government debt — Treasury securities — are nothing more than savings accounts at the Federal Reserve Bank in Washington.
There are about 13 trillion dollars in Treasury securities at the Fed. Collectively, these savings accounts are known as the national debt. The national debt represents a portion of the combined savings of US residents, corporations, banks, and foreign governments. And most folks probably don’t know that when a person buys them, the Fed simply transfers the dollars from her checking account to a savings account at the Fed called a “Treasury security.”
Tens of billions of dollars of these Treasury securities come due every week. When that happens, the Fed pays off that “debt” simply by transferring the dollars, plus interest, out of these savings accounts and back to the holders’ checking accounts.
In the future, when our grandkids make payments on Treasury securities, they will simply credit accounts at the Fed-just as we do today, and as our grandparents did before us. It is a simple matter of data entry, and not a financial burden.If the government spends and taxes wisely today, our grandchildren inherit roads, dams, parks, public buildings, and, most importantly, an educated and healthier workforce. These things are admittedly hard to value precisely-but there can be no doubt that our grandkids will be much better off having been born into a society that has modern infrastructure and services that our government policies can help to provide.

~Randall Wray, Professor of Economics, University of Missouri-Kansas City, Missouri

Hear that kids? When the government takes money from you to make payments on treasurys, it is NOT a financial burden on you.

RandomGuy
12-06-2011, 03:11 PM
None of that is very convincing. All of it seems to operate under the assumption that we can print all the money we want free of any negative reprocussions.

Heh, I have been reading some interesting monetary theory that says precisely that.

It seems almost designed to tweak sensibilities of fiscal conservatives. Hell, I'm not sure I buy all of it.

Since it is interesting and new, and designed to irritate Darrin and Parker, you can expect to see more of it. BUWAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

MMT, Modern Monetary Theory.

Winehole23
12-06-2011, 03:13 PM
that was a good one

RandomGuy
12-06-2011, 03:15 PM
Hear that kids? When the government takes money from you to make payments on treasurys, it is NOT a financial burden on you.

It is always good to challenge one's underlying assumptions.

Beware appeals to ridicule. :)

coyotes_geek
12-06-2011, 04:03 PM
It's all good. Fire away. :tu

Winehole23
12-06-2011, 04:09 PM
how could data entry possibly hurt anyone?

Winehole23
12-06-2011, 04:10 PM
that's ignorant

LnGrrrR
12-06-2011, 04:27 PM
A few problems with these myths... it seems like the authors are either inventing strawmen, or at least, not answering the underlying questions.

Re: Myth 1... understandable that the government doesn't HAVE to work like a household... but what if it did? What if we ensured that all spending was covered by taxation/exports/etc? Would that be worse, because then the government wouldn't be creating jobs through spending expenditures?

Re: Myth 2, Social Security/Medicare might not be failing, but are they stable without dipping into outside sources? By all accounts, the costs of health care have risen dramatically in the past decade or so. Do the authors expect that to tamper down? If not, how do they expect to make up the difference in cost?

Winehole23
12-06-2011, 04:32 PM
we never got a link

Winehole23
12-06-2011, 04:33 PM
wonders where RG got it

LnGrrrR
12-06-2011, 04:34 PM
Re: Myth 3/4, I don't see why the authors act as if "creating more money" can be done at the stroke of a keyboard, implying no further ramifications/unintended consequences. Obviously the US isn't withdrawing thousands of physical dollar bills to hand over to China, but no one is really worried about that.

Re: Myth 5, the way the good doctor puts it, you would wonder why any country has financial/economic problems at all.

coyotes_geek
12-06-2011, 04:36 PM
A few problems with these myths... it seems like the authors are either inventing strawmen, or at least, not answering the underlying questions.

Re: Myth 1... understandable that the government doesn't HAVE to work like a household... but what if it did? What if we ensured that all spending was covered by taxation/exports/etc? Would that be worse, because then the government wouldn't be creating jobs through spending expenditures?

The response to myth 1 was all about explaining how the concept of money is different between governments and households and nothing about actually debunking the alleged myth that balancing the budget would be a good thing.


Re: Myth 2, Social Security/Medicare might not be failing, but are they stable without dipping into outside sources? By all accounts, the costs of health care have risen dramatically in the past decade or so. Do the authors expect that to tamper down? If not, how do they expect to make up the difference in cost?

As best I can tell, they don't. The gist of all of this seems to be that money isn't real, it's just something created by government. Since it isn't real and it is created by government, government can just create as much of it as they want.

LnGrrrR
12-06-2011, 04:38 PM
As best I can tell, they don't. The gist of all of this seems to be that money isn't real, it's just something created by government. Since it isn't real and it is created by government, government can just create as much of it as they want.

That's somewhat what I got from it too. But don't worry, we won't be like Weimer or Zimbabwe, because the only reason their economies went bad was due to catastrophe.

Really, they make it seem as if economic policy is rather easy, something a country could do on cruise-control.

Winehole23
12-06-2011, 04:39 PM
http://sharonoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/wizard-of-oz-man-behind-the-curtain1.jpg

Agloco
12-06-2011, 05:37 PM
Consensus matters tbh.

Parker2112
12-06-2011, 05:41 PM
The danger of fiat currency is always the overcirculation. It works when it is administered responsibly. Irresponsible inflation of currency in circulation has the affect of undermining the currency altogether. Leaving people starving in the streets.

Is the dollar being managed responsibly by the PRIVATE Federal Reserve, to who we owe much of our national debt, a debt which is secured by USA, and hence by all taxpayers?

http://www.opednews.com/Quicklink/The-7-trillion-secret-loa-in-General_News-111201-511.html

Parker2112
12-06-2011, 05:43 PM
RG, you need more homework :)

Winehole23
12-06-2011, 05:44 PM
http://www.internetmonk.com/wp-content/uploads/8066-mchoice_WizardOz_42909.jpg

Parker2112
12-06-2011, 05:47 PM
interesting note: without the Fed to bankroll corrupt politicians' global imperialism, our tax rate would probably be close to 60% by now! :)

Funny how the fed keeps taxpayers in the dark...they dont demand an end to wars because they dont understand the game...they dont realize that 1) the debt is real, 2) the interest that accumulates is real, and 3) they are completely on the hook for it :)

Parker2112
12-06-2011, 05:48 PM
If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks…will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered…. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs. – Thomas Jefferson in the debate over the Re-charter of the Bank Bill (1809)

“I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies.” – Thomas Jefferson

Parker2112
12-06-2011, 05:49 PM
The Government should create, issue, and circulate all the currency and credits needed to satisfy the spending power of the Government and the buying power of consumers. By the adoption of these principles, the taxpayers will be saved immense sums of interest. Money will cease to be master and become the servant of humanity. -Abraham Lincoln

Parker2112
12-06-2011, 05:50 PM
Issue of currency should be lodged with the government and be protected from domination by Wall Street. We are opposed to…provisions [which] would place our currency and credit system in private hands. – Theodore Roosevelt

Parker2112
12-06-2011, 05:50 PM
Despite these warnings, Woodrow Wilson signed the 1913 Federal Reserve Act. A few years later he wrote: I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated Governments in the civilized world no longer a Government by free opinion, no longer a Government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a Government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men. -Woodrow Wilson

Parker2112
12-06-2011, 05:51 PM
Years later, reflecting on the major banks’ control in Washington, President Franklin Roosevelt paid this indirect praise to his distant predecessor President Andrew Jackson, who had “killed” the 2nd Bank of the US (an earlier type of the Federal Reserve System). After Jackson’s administration the bankers’ influence was gradually restored and increased, culminating in the passage of the Federal Reserve Act of 1913. Roosevelt knew this history.
The real truth of the matter is,as you and I know, that a financial
element in the large centers has owned the government ever since
the days of Andrew Jackson… -Franklin D. Roosevelt
(in a letter to Colonel House, dated November 21, 1933)

mavs>spurs
12-06-2011, 09:14 PM
he's absolutely right about the money owed to china being nothing more than numbers in a computer tho. problem is, pretty sure they can demand to withdraw from their accounts and have it in cash at any time they want just like any other bank, which would force us to fire up the printing press right?

Parker2112
12-06-2011, 09:25 PM
A home loan is numbers in a computer. At some point those numbers didnt exist. The Fed pulled them out of its arse. But that wont prevent the bank from leaving you and your fam cold out on the street.

If you think we can sidestep the debt we owe china, your delusional.

mavs>spurs
12-06-2011, 09:32 PM
no we can't because like i just said, china can ask to withdraw their "numbers in the computer" in cash just like you or i could go withdraw out of our bank accounts, and we'd be forced to start printing it would fuck our economy up.

mavs>spurs
12-06-2011, 09:41 PM
but from what i understand it would be in neither theirs or our interest to do that though, so it's not like they really have us by the balls

Parker2112
12-06-2011, 09:57 PM
If we crank up the press, that devalues the dollar...and their debt becomes worth drastically less. probably worthless tbh, since we owe them so much. And what prevents an exchange of assets?

This is the shit that drives countries to war, so its not as easy as just cranking up the press.

mavs>spurs
12-06-2011, 09:59 PM
why do you keep typing to me as if you're telling me anything different than what i just said?

Parker2112
12-06-2011, 09:59 PM
RG doesnt understand any of this. At least not yet.

Parker2112
12-06-2011, 10:01 PM
You didnt mention the affect on the debt they own, or the possibility of war. If you already knew this then we are in agreement. cool.

mavs>spurs
12-06-2011, 10:06 PM
none of the mainstream government apologist suckups understand any of this, not because they aren't smart enough but because for some reason or another they can't seem to break their conditioning.

The idea of a central bank and controlling the money supply sounds great on paper and there really are some benefits from doing so, but what people don't understand is that it's a lot of power for a PRIVATE organization to have and it's just downright unamerican.

Parker2112
12-06-2011, 10:11 PM
TBH, we couldnt trust it to politicians either.

it becomes a choice between slow and steady (commodity based), and fiat manipulation by special interests (Fed or US treasury/politicians).

Winehole23
12-06-2011, 10:16 PM
http://media.web.britannica.com/eb-media/40/90540-004-51D46EFE.jpg

Parker2112
12-06-2011, 10:17 PM
Oh and commodities can be manipulated too.

Winehole23
12-06-2011, 10:19 PM
http://classic-flatware.com/images/ALC1004.jpg

Parker2112
12-06-2011, 10:36 PM
WH, you should use these same slights and veiled insults with more dim-witted members of your community. You far too diplomatic with the "progressives" on this board imho.

Ive read enough of your posts to know you probably agree with everything I have stated above. Disengenuous bastard. lol.

Winehole23
12-06-2011, 10:37 PM
http://www.pavingexpert.com/images/mortar/mortar_trowel.jpg

Winehole23
12-06-2011, 10:39 PM
WH, you should use these same slights and veiled insults with more dim-witted members of your community. You far too diplomatic with the "progressives" on this board imho.like the op?

lol

Ive read enough of your posts to know you probably agree with everything I have stated above. Disengenuous bastard. lol.You'd be wrong about that, as you are about many things.

Winehole23
12-06-2011, 10:42 PM
boo on shoehorning in hard money woo woo. it barely relates to the question.

Winehole23
12-06-2011, 10:44 PM
you should have a catchall thread, like boutons VRWC thread, for routine crapola like this

Parker2112
12-06-2011, 10:46 PM
boo on shoehorning in hard money woo woo. it barely relates to the question.

It relates to YH's comments.

And I didnt elaborate on hard money's downside, but its not an option. I would much prefer an honest fed to a gold standard.

Winehole23
12-06-2011, 10:47 PM
I would much prefer an honest fed to a gold standard.coming from you that's quite an admission

Winehole23
12-06-2011, 10:50 PM
covertly pro- the banking cartel

Winehole23
12-06-2011, 10:50 PM
pretending to be against it is just his day job

Winehole23
12-06-2011, 10:51 PM
o lol!

Parker2112
12-06-2011, 10:51 PM
There is no such thing as an honest ring of bankers. a lil disingenuous on my part there :)

the Fed can be used to extract wealth over time, but the gold standard can be used by the elite to cripple an economy altogether.

Winehole23
12-06-2011, 10:53 PM
backtracking? boo.

Winehole23
12-06-2011, 10:55 PM
i liked you much better as a double agent than a spineless grubworm

Parker2112
12-06-2011, 10:55 PM
you understand that was no backtrack.

Winehole23
12-06-2011, 10:57 PM
i understand you always deny everything. that's your MO.

Parker2112
12-06-2011, 11:00 PM
human nature. bankers nature. politicians nature. society is fucked. We are in for quite a ride WH. Take care of you and yours fella.

Winehole23
12-06-2011, 11:01 PM
justification is mostly the process of its own undoing. once undertaken, the goal is lost.

Winehole23
12-06-2011, 11:05 PM
We are in for quite a ride WH. Take care of you and yours fella.Hey, I was we're in for a hell of a ride guy in 2008-9. I never expected anyone to thank me for it, tho.

You think it's bad now, just wait.




good luck to you, too

Winehole23
12-06-2011, 11:13 PM
http://front-free.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Lollipop_Guild1.jpg

Nbadan
12-07-2011, 01:29 AM
Oh....looking more like there will be a universal currency after all...not the amaro....the dollar...

Winehole23
12-07-2011, 11:12 AM
it's good to be the king

Winehole23
12-07-2011, 11:55 AM
Consensus matters tbh.going with the pros on this one?

Winehole23
12-07-2011, 11:58 AM
maybe RG got it here:

http://www.tantoday.com/forums/pub/43864-most-dangerous-myths-about-deficit.html

Winehole23
12-07-2011, 11:59 AM
http://www.newdeal20.org/2010/04/27/the-deficit-nine-myths-we-cant-afford-10162/

TeyshaBlue
12-07-2011, 12:05 PM
Monetary existentialism? Who knew....

Winehole23
12-07-2011, 12:06 PM
???

Winehole23
12-07-2011, 12:10 PM
lol tyranny response day job, in any case

TeyshaBlue
12-07-2011, 12:11 PM
The idea that money may not conform to a set of ideas regarding its purpose or existence, beyond the terms used in pedagogy and objective science.

Winehole23
12-07-2011, 12:12 PM
who were you aiming the sharp end at?

TeyshaBlue
12-07-2011, 12:12 PM
Ie....data entry vs laying a fiver on the counter.

TeyshaBlue
12-07-2011, 12:13 PM
who were you aiming the sharp end at?

Coventional wisdom and myself mostly.

Winehole23
12-07-2011, 12:13 PM
you're with Jamie Galbreath on this one? :wtf

TeyshaBlue
12-07-2011, 12:16 PM
you're with Jamie Galbreath on this one? :wtf

Dunno yet. The fact that my mind slammed completely shut at the mere concept gives me pause to re-examine the notion.

Winehole23
12-07-2011, 12:18 PM
^^^pointy-headed elitism

Winehole23
12-07-2011, 12:18 PM
:lol

TeyshaBlue
12-07-2011, 12:19 PM
*parks dunce cap on pointy head*

Winehole23
12-07-2011, 12:19 PM
for the record, is pro-pointy headed elitism to some extent

Winehole23
12-07-2011, 12:21 PM
even though it is the dunce cap of modern politics

TeyshaBlue
12-07-2011, 12:21 PM
We appreciate your support.
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQXEf1ejKdNO5SnVpsjjeVrHgO3Beu2T mkyHhCTph9oN2RubSUH

Winehole23
12-07-2011, 12:30 PM
http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=158679&highlight=galbreath&page=5

Winehole23
12-07-2011, 12:32 PM
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2010/05/galbraith_the_danger_posed_by.html

Winehole23
12-07-2011, 12:36 PM
http://www.angrybearblog.com/2010/07/professor-jamie-galbraiths-testimony-to.html

Winehole23
12-07-2011, 12:40 PM
I'll tell you how data entry can hurt us, Professor Galbreath:

One day, the markets could decide the US balance sheet is crap, and it won't matter one bit whether it's true or not...

Winehole23
12-07-2011, 12:43 PM
confidence, always elusive, becomes even moreso once trust has been broken

TeyshaBlue
12-07-2011, 12:44 PM
Theres sone serious roasting in the opening remarks in the angy bear link.

TeyshaBlue
12-07-2011, 12:45 PM
I'll tell you how data entry can hurt us, Professor Galbreath:

One day, the markets could decide the US balance sheet is crap, and it won't matter one bit whether it's true or not...

Presumably, the markets would have a reason to do so.

Winehole23
12-07-2011, 12:51 PM
http://mychinaconnection.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/let-cat-out-of-the-bag-cat-o-nine-tails.jpg

Winehole23
12-07-2011, 12:52 PM
Presumably, the markets would have a reason to do so.Sure. But ruling out that our present actions might inform future problems seems jejune...

Winehole23
12-07-2011, 12:54 PM
...OTOH Professor Galbreath is an expert who puts the danger at nil, because rates are very low right now...

LnGrrrR
12-07-2011, 12:54 PM
I think "monetary existentialism" (love the term btw) only works when you have, by a good amount, the most well-funded and capable military in the world.

Winehole23
12-07-2011, 12:58 PM
...and the world's reserve currency too, perhaps

Winehole23
12-07-2011, 02:41 PM
good thing that'll never change

Winehole23
12-07-2011, 03:35 PM
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2011-12-07/american-economy-rebounding-as-investor-favorite-in-global-poll.html

LnGrrrR
12-08-2011, 04:51 PM
Bumping to see if RG will come back and play :lol

Winehole23
12-08-2011, 04:54 PM
i'd be interested to see what he defends or disclaims from the OP

Winehole23
12-20-2011, 05:27 AM
doorbell ditcher! :p:

Winehole23
02-04-2016, 10:04 AM
more MMT


Most Americans believe the federal government is like a family or business that must live within its income. On the surface, that makes sense and the reasons why it is wrong are complex. Here are five nuggets, or simple ways to explain why it is wrong to voters who will never be economists. They show why federal deficits are necessary. They can be adapted and used as appropriate.


Historical



Federal deficits are necessary and the government normally runs them. It ran them during 129 of the past 200 years or nearly two thirds of the time. During the other third, it ran surpluses to reduce its debt during five periods of six or more years. Each period led to a major depression.


1823-1836: Federal debt reduced 99% – depression began 1837.
1852-1857: ” ” ” 59% – ” ” 1857.
1867-1873: ” ” ” 27% – ” ” 1873.
1880-1893: ” ” ” 57% – ” ” 1893.
1920-1930: ” ” ” 36% – ” ” 1929.


The government had to run deficits to recover from each depression.


The Federal government is different



The economy needs a continuing influx of new dollars to grow. The government creates new dollars when it runs deficits by spending more than it receives from taxes.


When the government collects taxes it takes dollars out of the economy. It also appears to take dollars from the economy when it sells bonds. But unlike taxpayers who lose their purchasing power, bond buyers get bonds and keep their purchasing power. The deficit spending adds new dollars to the economy as if they had been “printed”. Note these key points:




Unlike reluctant taxpayers, bond buyers want the bonds to use as savings accounts to safeguard their dollars and earn interest.
The government redeems the bonds when they come due, but it can roll over or sell replacements indefinitely.
The total of all dollars the federal government has created this way since 1790 is called the federal debt which never has to be repaid while the nation exists. Attempts to reduce the debt significantly never worked because they took dollars from the economy that it needs to operate and grow.
Because the government can create dollars, it can never run out of them and cannot be forced into bankruptcy.
The federal government is not like families or companies because only it creates new dollars that stay in the economy unless it removes them by running surpluses.

http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2016/02/explaining-why-federal-deficits-are-needed.html

Winehole23
02-04-2016, 10:05 AM
Most people have heard of the private sector but they don’t know what “sector” means. The economy has three major parts called the private sector, the public sector, and the foreign sector. The total dollar flows from all buying and selling within and among the sectors always cancel out or add up to zero. A sector has a deficit if it spends more than its income. When this happens, one or both of the other sectors must run a corresponding surplus, and vice versa.


Since the 1970s, the private sector has bought more goods and services from other countries than it sold to them. The dollars that flowed to other countries to pay for the net imports were foreign sector surpluses and private sector deficits.

Those deficits drained dollars from the private sector and the economy might have slowed down or even fallen into a depression for a lack of money. That did not happen because the federal government in the public sector ran deficits that replaced the dollars sent abroad. The country now imports about one half a trillion dollars worth of goods and services a year more than its exports. That flow will have to be reduced eventually or the economy will become weaker and even more unbalanced. But until that happens, the government is trapped into running deficits to compensate for the private sector’s failure to earn its living in relation to the foreign sector. Balanced federal budgets are formulas for economic decline.


Drive the Economy



The economy is like a car. Government spending is the accelerator. Taxes are the brakes. To keep going or speed up, press the accelerator. To slow down, ease off the accelerator or press the brakes. Driving too fast could lead to hyper-inflation, but that never happened here because the country always slowed down in time.


Reverse the Discussion



Those who oppose federal deficits should be made to answer two basic questions:




Why should the government avoid spending to meet the country’s critical needs in order to save dollars which it can create?
How could the government ever run out of dollars since it can create them by running deficits?

same

Winehole23
02-04-2016, 10:07 AM
Wrecking the present, such as:
* by degrading the installed asset base in areas like transport, power or potable water supply and distribution
* by neglecting health and social care services
* by crapifying education
* by tolerating unemployment, especially youth unemployment

… is lowering the baseline for prosperity in the present which means a lower base to draw on in the future. These are not potential, theoretical problems which might emerge in the future; they are happening today. They represent legitimate areas where state intervention is perfectly justified.

boutons_deux
02-04-2016, 10:10 AM
the VRWC/1%/Repug "deficit/out-of-control spending" LIE is meant to cut spending only for the 99%, so they can cut taxes and keep spending for the VRWC/1%/BigCorp.

Same LIE about privatizing SS, public schools, USPS: it's all about enriching the 1%/BigCorp and impoverishing the 99%.

Winehole23
02-04-2016, 10:13 AM
go play with yourself. grownups talkin.

Winehole23
02-04-2016, 10:24 AM
after the Panic of 2008-9, what's the main difference between the US and the EU?

deficit spending, to put it crudely.

the EU embraced austerity and remains mired in debt-deflation that will amplify any economic shock. it faces another decade lost to stagnation.

the USA pursued monetary loosening and fiscal stimulus. we are recovering modestly.

boutons_deux
02-04-2016, 10:44 AM
go play with yourself. grownups talkin.

G F Y

Winehole23
07-23-2016, 10:05 AM
rhymes with MMT, courtesy of Alan Greenspan:


Back in 2005, when Paul Ryan was still only a congressman from Wisconsin and not speaker of the House, he asked a question of then-Fed Chairman Alan Greenspan in a hearing for the House Budget Committee. Ryan asked Greenspan if there was a way to ensure the solvency of Social Security through the use of personal retirement accounts.


Greenspan's response was eye-opening. He told Ryan, "There's nothing to prevent the federal government from creating as much money as it wants and paying it to someone." He goes on to add that the real question is whether there is a system in place to ensure that the real assets are there for the benefits (money) to purchase.


You can watch the exchange here (https://youtu.be/DNCZHAQnfGU) in this short YouTube clip.


Watch Ryan's face when Greenspan is explaining and you will see that the whole explanation goes right over his head and, I'm sure, right over most people's heads.


Yet what Greenspan said is not only the truth, but the real crux of the entire Social Security debate. (Or, false debate, I should say.) As Greenspan correctly states, there is no inability for the government to create the money ("it can create as much as it wants"), the only thing that we need to be focused on is whether or not we have sufficient quantities of the food, shelter, clothing, hospitals, medicine, medical care, maybe leisure activities, etc., that all people will need and consume in their retirement. Greenspan correctly explains that it's not about the money. "It's nice to have the money," he says, "but you need the assets."

http://realmoney.thestreet.com/articles/07/20/2016/social-security-if-it-aint-broke-...-and-it-aint-and-it-never-will-be

Winehole23
08-02-2018, 08:45 AM
Yves Smith on the meaning of the national debt:


What is unique about U.S. government “borrowing”—and what gives the term, applied in that context, its confusing ambiguity—is the fact that the “promise” which replaces a borrowed dollar is simply another kind of “dollar.” Specifically, the government borrows a dollar from the economy, and replaces it with a “Treasury bond or note” which is, in effect, a special form of “dollars” that earn interest. The Treasury bond or note has the same liquidity/tradability in the economy as the regular dollars it has replaced; therefore, the amount of “money” in the private sector doesn’t fall by the amount taken out by the “borrowing” but remains the same as before the “borrowing” occurred.

In conventionally understood “borrowing,” when the borrowed thing is returned, the “promise” that was being held by the lender (either implicitly or explicitly) is simply cancelled. In U.S. government “borrowing,” however, the borrowed thing is NEVERreturned because, by logic, the promise being held in its place is already the same thing as what was borrowed. E.g. a $1000 Treasury bond is the same “thing” as 1000 dollars—only better, because it earns interest! When the Treasury bond “matures,” the dollars it “contains” are simply converted to “regular” dollars or, more often than not, they are rolled into a new Treasury bond.

This is why there is nobody squeezing the U.S. government to repay what the government has “borrowed.” They have alreadybeen repaid by the Treasury bonds they took in exchange for the dollars they “loaned.” (As you can see, the term “loan” applied to this transaction has the same paradoxical ambiguity as the term “borrow.” What’s really happening is that one kind of money is simply being traded for another.)

The surprising result of this transaction is that when the government subsequently spends the “borrowed” dollars back into the economy, there is a net increasein the monetary assets in the private sector equal to the number of dollars “borrowed.” In effect, the Treasury bond auction process creates “new” dollars that previously did not exist—dollars which the U.S. government now has possession of and authorization to spend. And that’s exactly what it does: it spends the new dollars to pay for things that Congress has determined will benefit American society.
https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2018/08/explicable-mystery-national-debt.html

Winehole23
08-02-2018, 08:46 AM
startling, yes


First, the U.S. “national debt” is functionally not a debt at all. It is simply a tally of the U.S. Treasury bonds which the government has issued and then traded for U.S. dollars which already existed in the private sector. These Treasury bonds are in effect interest-paying, time-deposit savings accounts for the bond holders. You personally may have traded some of your retirement dollars for one of these “savings accounts” and you know, firsthand, they definitely contain real money! The “national debt,” then, is really a “national savings account.”


This is, to say the least, a startling and liberating perspective. It means all the political drama and hand-wringing about how we are going to repay our “national debt” can just go away. Even better, all the haggling can be replaced with an entirely different conversation: What shall our government spend the new dollars—created by the Treasury bond auction process—to accomplish? The short list of deferred needs, recited earlier, could be a start.
ibid.

Winehole23
08-02-2018, 08:52 AM
from the comments:


The fact that borrowings of bank-created money must be repaid probably contributes to the widespread false belief that Treasury “borrowings” must also eventually be repaid. The essay makes an important point that the Treasury is not actually borrowing — it is exchanging interest bearing notes of its own creation for non-(or very low)-interest bearing reserves which are deposited into its reserve account at the Fed.


The US government, being a currency issuer (unlike the European examples mentioned in the essay) does not face a solvency constraint. It does, of course, face an inflation constraint.
ibid.

boutons_deux
08-02-2018, 10:45 AM
the oligarchy's myth's are

govt, public to be run as for-profit businesses (even better, kill public education and hand it to for-profit orgs to really fuck it up)

national debt / balanced budget is just like household debt

therefore, cut taxes for the oligarchy and balance the budget by decimating Medicare, Medicaid, pensions, vet care, etc, etc.

all VERY simple once you expand your cynicism to encompass the 100% bad faith of the for-profit, predatory Capitalist oligarchy.