Atheists Who Go to Church: Doing It for the Children

[RandomGuy]

He probably won't get down on his knees, but that fellow sitting near you during the Sunday church service just may be an atheist. And a scientist.

A new study out of Rice University has found that 17 percent -- about one out of five scientists who describe themselves as either atheists or agnostics -- actually go to church, although not too often, and not because they feel a spiritual yearning to join the faithful.

More likely, it's because of the kids.

What? Why would somebody who doesn't believe there's a god want his own offspring wasting their time in an enterprise he believes has no foundation in fact? Especially a scientist.

The study, by sociologists Elaine Howard Ecklund of Rice and Kristen Schultz Lee of the University at Buffalo, found that many atheists want their children exposed to religion so that they can make up their own minds on what to believe. In addition, church may provide a better understanding of morality and ethics, and occasionally attending services may ease the conflict between spouses who disagree over the value of religion to their children, the study contends.

The research, published in the December issue of the Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion, was based on in-depth interviews with 275 scientists at 21 "elite" research universities in the United States. Sixty-one percent of the participants described themselves as either atheists or agnostics, and 17 percent of the non-believers had attended church more than once in the past year.

In general, their church affiliation followed a similar pattern -- most were raised in a family that was not deeply involved in religion, and they did not attend church during early adulthood but established a relationship with a church when they had children of their own. After the children had grown, they attended church less and less, if at all.

But why would someone who believes there is no god want his children exposed to doctrines that he clearly believes to be false?

"Some actually see it as part of their scientific identity," Ecklund said in a telephone interview. "They want to teach their children to be free thinkers, to give them religious choices, and so they take their children to religious organizations just to give them exposure to religion."

Let the kids make up their own minds, many of the participants told Ecklund.

Still, it may seem a bit odd for some atheists to perceive church as a desired "community" at a time when many leading atheists are calling on their colleagues to come out of the closet and take a public stand against religion. Evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins, physicist Victor Stenger and others see religion as a source of evil in the world.

They contend that science has moved beyond a belief in the supernatural, partly because science has answered some questions that were previously left up to clerics. Evolution, for example, provides a naturalist explanation for how we got here.

True believers, by contrast, regard atheists as "among the least trusted people" on the planet, according to researchers at the University of British Columbia. These scientists emphasized last month that the right word is "distrust," not "dislike."

But however you put it, atheists do have a bit of an image problem. If they feel uncomfortable attending church, that's nothing compared to entering some aspects of public service. They usually find themselves on the outside looking in.


Atheists Who Go to Church

Columnist Michael Kinsley confessed to being a "nonbeliever" in the Los Angeles Times last month. In an op-ed piece he conceded, "That puts me in the only religious grouping in America whose members are effectively barred from any hope of becoming president, due to widespread public prejudice against them. There will be a Mormon president, a Jewish president, an openly gay president before there will be a president who says publicly that he doesn't believe in God."

He contrasted that with the current run for the White House in which "four of this year's Republican candidates were personally recruited by God to run for president." That number has since dropped to three.

Ecklund, who has conducted several studies of science and religion, said in the interview that it's possible for an atheist to become a member of a religious community without feeling like a phony.

"I don't think they see it as a conflict," she said. That's partly because they've been out of the mainstream for nearly their entire lives.

"There's a good deal of difference between the science community and the general public," she said. "Scientists are less likely to have been raised in religious homes." When they were, she added, "they were generally raised in homes where religion was not practiced strongly. It was not part of the fabric of life."

So perhaps a scientist who happens to be an agnostic or an atheist sees no problem with turning to religion, if only for awhile, because it could open new avenues of thought for the children. After all, isn't that the heart of science?

"The children can decide for themselves what to believe," Ecklund said.

-------------------------------------------------

http://news.yahoo.com/atheists-church-doing-children-225034079.html

I used to be mildly religious, but just couldn't buy it anymore, and finally made the leap a year or so ago. I feel much better for having done so.

I will be doing this for my kids. They can make up their mind or not about various religions. If they want to worship God in some way, then that will be their choice.

[RandomGuy]

Oddly enough, my wife and I have also had a discussion about how to teach our kids about ethical topics.

Not having the crutch of someone else writing a book with easy answers, spending time communicating and talking about this is actually a good exercise in making oneself think about these things in a bit more depth.

[Blake]

I go to church and take my kid every now and then just to pacify my own mom.

[Drachen]

.

[Drachen]

My daughter goes to Catholic school. I will probably end up sending my son. Why? Because Catholics sure know how to educate.

I can't, however, say that my life has followed the arc presented in this article. My parents went to church every Sunday, I went to Catholic school until halfway through 4th grade, and my parents have gotten more and more involved with the Church every single year. I was absolutely exposed to religion (to the point that when I told them I don't believe and I wasn't going to church, they threatened to take my truck away and I compared them to the inquisition :lol ), I just didn't buy it past my early teens.

I know plenty of good people who are religious and plenty of bad people who are atheists. I don't feel uncomfortable around anyone based on religious persuasion. It is someone's other traits which suck (and these can be seen in both athiests and theists).

[Blake]

My daughter goes to Catholic school. I will probably end up sending my son. Why? Because Catholics sure know how to educate.


I'm good with saving the $300-400 a month by sending my daughter to public school for grades 1-5.

Middle school though, she's going private.

[Drachen]

I'm good with saving the $300-400 a month by sending my daughter to public school for grades 1-5.

Middle school though, she's going private.

I hear what you are saying, but
1) for Pre-K it costs less to send her there than to a relatively inexpensive daycare.

2) I am probably going to do the opposite of what you are doing (unless I get rich). I think it is more important to give her a good base. Plus *I* think that she would benefit more by getting ahead early, than to be behind when entering into private school.

I guess if you want to do it that way, keep tabs on what they are learning at the private school in each grade to make sure you daughter isn't slipping back.

[Blake]

I hear what you are saying, but
1) for Pre-K it costs less to send her there than to a relatively inexpensive daycare.

2) I am probably going to do the opposite of what you are doing (unless I get rich). I think it is more important to give her a good base. Plus *I* think that she would benefit more by getting ahead early, than to be behind when entering into private school.

I guess if you want to do it that way, keep tabs on what they are learning at the private school in each grade to make sure you daughter isn't slipping back.

If she maintains an A average, I can't imagine that she would be that far off going from 5th grade public to 6th grade private.

I'm more concerned with the environment. Since middle school is horrible enough as it is, I like the fact that a private school can easily kick out the bad kids.

[Drachen]

If she maintains an A average, I can't imagine that she would be that far off going from 5th grade public to 6th grade private.

I'm more concerned with the environment. Since middle school is horrible enough as it is, I like the fact that a private school can easily kick out the bad kids.


You may be right. Good luck to each of our children.

[Blake]

You may be right. Good luck to each of our children.

:toast

[LnGrrrR]

When my children get older, it's likely I'll be bringing them to church at least a few times a year, per the wife's request. I don't really mind though. Before we even had kids, we discussed what we'd teach our children when they got older. I figured we'd tell them the truth... Mom believes this, Dad believes that, no one really knows but we make our best judgments according to what we feel is right/true.

Edit: I'd also like to point out that I feel the church can hold an invaluable service, by bringing communities together during times of need and encouraging volunteering and helping others.

[DarrinS]

I believe in God, but don't go to any church. But, I also don't go to any meetings of atheists (assuming such events exist). My kids are smart enough to figure it out for themselves.

[Winehole23]

it's helpful for children to see churches aren't filled with spiteful crazies. if they never went, they'd never know. jmo.

[ElNono]

Kinda like Lebron... doing it for the children :cry

[Wild Cobra]

My daughter goes to Catholic school.
Careful...

Do you realize how many girls who go to their private schools turn into super sluts?

[coyotes_geek]

Careful...

Do you realize how many girls who go to their private schools turn into super sluts?

I think I've seen a documentary or two about that phenomenon.......

[Agloco]

He probably won't get down on his knees, but that fellow sitting near you during the Sunday church service just may be an atheist. And a scientist.

And RG outs me. Thanks bud....... :lol

[mouse]

I love when hypocrites are exposed.

[mouse]

And RG outs me. Thanks bud....... :lol

Especially when they post here in the politics forum.

[Agloco]

I love when hypocrites are exposed.


Especially when they post here in the politics forum.

Keep working on your A-B-C's mouse. Eventually it will make sense.

[Agloco]

I'll give you a hint, it can be found in this passage.......



More likely, it's because of the kids.

What? Why would somebody who doesn't believe there's a god want his own offspring wasting their time in an enterprise he believes has no foundation in fact? Especially a scientist.

The study, by sociologists Elaine Howard Ecklund of Rice and Kristen Schultz Lee of the University at Buffalo, found that many atheists want their children exposed to religion so that they can make up their own minds on what to believe. In addition, church may provide a better understanding of morality and ethics, and occasionally attending services may ease the conflict between spouses who disagree over the value of religion to their children, the study contends.

[DMX7]

I think I've seen a documentary or two about that phenomenon.......

Care to share?

[mouse]

Keep working on your A-B-C's mouse. Eventually it will make sense.

Keep acting like your the Science guru of ST eventually you will be exposed as the Google searching wannabee that you really are.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Is there a higher rate of child molestation at churches because obviously quite a bit of it goes on there.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

The three companies that insure the majority of Protestant churches in America say they typically receive upward of 260 reports each year of young people under 18 being sexually abused by clergy, church staff, volunteers or congregation members.

The figures released to The Associated Press offer a glimpse into what has long been an extremely difficult phenomenon to pin down — the frequency of sex abuse in Protestant congregations.

Religious groups and victims’ supporters have been keenly interested in the figure ever since the Roman Catholic sex abuse crisis hit five years ago. The church has revealed that there have been 13,000 credible accusations against Catholic clerics since 1950.

Protestant numbers have been harder to come by and are sketchier because the denominations are less centralized than the Catholic church; indeed, many congregations are independent, which makes reporting even more difficult.

Some of the only numbers come from three insurance companies — Church Mutual Insurance Co., GuideOne Insurance Co. and Brotherhood Mutual Insurance Co.

Together, they insure 165,495 churches and worship centers for liability against child sex abuse and other sexual misconduct, mostly Protestant congregations but a few other faiths as well. They also insure more than 5,500 religious schools, camps and other organizations.

The companies represent a large chunk of all U.S. Protestant churches. There are about 224,000 in the U.S., according to the Association of Statisticians of American Religious Bodies, although that number excludes most historically black denominations and some other groups, which account for several thousand congregations.

Church Mutual, GuideOne and Brotherhood Mutual each provided statistics on sex abuse claims to The Associated Press, although they did not produce supporting documentation or a way to determine whether the reports were credible.

The largest company, Church Mutual, reported an average of about 100 sex abuse cases a year involving minors over the past decade. GuideOne, which has about half the clients of Church Mutual, said it has received an average of 160 reports of sex abuse against minors every year for the past two decades.

Brotherhood Mutual said it has received an average of 73 reports of child sex abuse and other sexual misconduct every year for the past 15 years. However, Brotherhood does not specify which victims are younger than 18 so it is impossible to accurately add that to the total cases.

Abuse reports do not always mean the accused was guilty, and they do not necessarily result in financial awards or settlements, the companies said. The reports include accusations against clergy, church staff and volunteers.

Even with hundreds of cases a year “that’s a very small number. That probably doesn’t even constitute half,” said Gary Schoener, director of the Walk-In Counseling Center in Minneapolis, a consultant on hundreds of Protestant and Catholic clergy misconduct cases. “Sex abuse in any domain, including the church, is reported seldom. We know a small amount actually come forward.”

Tom Farr, general counsel and senior vice president of claims for GuideOne, based in West Des Moines, Iowa, said most abuse cases are resolved privately in court-ordered mediation. Awards can range from millions of dollars down to paying for counseling for victims, he said.

One of the largest settlements to date in Protestant churches involved the case of former Lutheran minister Gerald Patrick Thomas Jr. in Texas, where a jury several years ago awarded the minister’s victims nearly $37 million (euro28 million). Separate earlier settlements involving Thomas cost an additional $32 million.

When insurance companies first started getting reports of abuse from churches nearly two decades ago, the cases usually involved abuse that happened many years earlier. But over the past several years, the alleged abuse is more recent, which could reflect a greater awareness about reporting abuse, insurance companies said.

Insurance officials said the number of sex abuse cases has remained steady over the past two decades, but they also said churches are working harder to prevent child sex abuse by conducting background checks, installing windows in nurseries and play areas and requiring at least two adults in a room with a child.

A victims’ advocacy group has said the Southern Baptists, the nation’s largest Protestant denomination, could do more to prevent abuse by creating a list of accused clergy the public and churches could access.

“These are things people are entitled to know,” said Christa Brown, a member of the Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests, who says she was sexually abused as a child by a Southern Baptist minister. “The only way to prevent this crime is to break the code of silence and to have absolute transparency when allegations are raised.”

At the Southern Baptist Convention’s annual meeting in San Antonio this week, the Rev. Wade Burleson proposed a feasibility study into developing a national database of Southern Baptist ministers who have been “credibly accused of, personally confessed to, or legally been convicted of sexual harassment or abuse.”

A convention committee referred Burleson’s motion to the SBC executive committee, which will report back with findings and a recommendation at next year’s meeting in Indianapolis.

Southern Baptist President Frank Page said leaders are considering several options to help churches protect children against abuse.

“We believe that the Scripture teaches that the church should be an autonomous, independent organization,” Page said. “We encourage churches to hold accountable at the local level those who may have misused the trust of precious children and youth.”

Several years ago, the Baptist General Convention of Texas, which represents moderates who have increasingly distanced themselves from the conservative-led Southern Baptists, started a list of accused clergy for churches, but not the public. Under pressure from victim advocates, the Texas group just released the names of some convicted sex offenders who may have been ministers in local congregations.

Joe Trull, editor of Christian Ethics Today and retired ethics professor at New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary, helped the Texas convention create its registry and says there are now about 11 cases involving clergy abuse with minors.

But he believes these are just the “tip of the iceberg” because churches don’t have to report abuse cases to the registry and aren’t likely to.

“The problem we’re having is that churches just weren’t sending the names,” Trull said. “In the normal scenario, they just try to keep it secret. We’re going to have to be more proactive and let them know if they don’t come forward, they’re helping to perpetuate this problem.”

http://www.insurancejournal.com/news/national/2007/06/18/80877.htm

[DarkReign]

I am going to have this problem with my wife and child soon enough.

Unfortunately for my wife, the likelihood of me going to church for anything but a funeral or wedding are somewhere between never and impossible.

Honestly, this is the one gray area of our very long relationship that barely gets addressed. My son will not be attending any church or be indoctrinated by fairy tales.

Then again, I could play the pacifist and let him come to his own conclusions about God, which I would suspect will coincide with his revelation about the existence of Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and leprechauns.

Naw...fuck it. He'll know earlier than that on our walks together.

[LnGrrrR]

Honestly, this is the one gray area of our very long relationship that barely gets addressed. My son will not be attending any church or be indoctrinated by fairy tales.

Then again, I could play the pacifist and let him come to his own conclusions about God, which I would suspect will coincide with his revelation about the existence of Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and leprechauns.

Naw...fuck it. He'll know earlier than that on our walks together.

You never know... holding him back from church might lead him to think there's a reason you're hiding church from him and make him want to be religious even moreso. :)

[lazerelmo]

you know instead of subjecting yourself and children to church you could just let them be exposed to religion in school...

Oh that's right, we can't have religion in schools anymore. Why is that? Could it be?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fc/Madalyn_Murray_O%27Hair.jpg

Athiests?!? <in church lady voice>

[Heat Miser]

My son will not be attending any church or be indoctrinated by fairy tales.




your right there is enough of that already in our schools

http://www.geekeshop.com/gifts/l_ci_beanstalk.jpg

http://www.strengthsandweaknesses.org/New%20Images/icons_of_evolution75dpi.compressed.jpg

http://childrenstory-books.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/wpid-51byT3bGBSL.jpg

[DarkReign]

http://www.geekeshop.com/gifts/l_ci_beanstalk.jpg

Children's Book. Never was written as factual history. Same category as Sesame Street, The Wonder Pets and the Mr and Ms books.

http://www.strengthsandweaknesses.org/New%20Images/icons_of_evolution75dpi.compressed.jpg

Evolution happens and is well-documented in all species. The only "mystery" about evolution are what triggers it.

Sorry, non-fiction section.

http://childrenstory-books.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/wpid-51byT3bGBSL.jpg

Shakespeare? Seriously?!

The English language perfected? Also a work of near-perfect fiction to boot?!

Ok, mouse.

[RandomGuy]

I believe in God, but don't go to any church. But, I also don't go to any meetings of atheists (assuming such events exist). My kids are smart enough to figure it out for themselves.

I find it mildly amusing that you and I share appear to share the same outlook on this.

[DarkReign]

You never know... holding him back from church might lead him to think there's a reason you're hiding church from him and make him want to be religious even moreso. :)

Somehow, I went my whole life without my father ever once taking me to church and at no point did I suspect he was hiding something from me.

Before he died at age 54, plenty of conversations were had about such things and never once did it devolve into popular dogma as a realistic alternative to individual spirituality.

I, personally, do not believe in any God. Christ, his Father (apparently He and Christ are one), Allah, Buddha, Flying Spaghetti Monster, etc.

I believe reality as we see it is an illusion of concentrated energy we call matter, or less specifically, the material world.

I believe our universe is one very insignificant layer of a multiverse that has infinite others much like, evertying in between and exactly opposite anything resembling ours.

I believe blackholes are the creation of another universe as seen from the "backside". One collapse here is another Big Bang there.

I believe the only truth in life is the way in which you choose to live it.

Good, bad, great and evil are terms ascribed to those attributes and behaviors with which one does not identify with as acceptable to their value of life.

There is no punishment for mass murder in the after-life just as there is no reward for "good behavior" either. We are walking, talking temporary energy containers who will either return to a network of some source of energy that is not God with consciousness intact, or we wont.

Death is not scary, bad or tragic for the dead. You will be born, you will live, you will die. Those are 3 phases of this existence you are aware of. I am betting since I dont remember anything before birth, the chances of me remembering anything after death isnt too high.

I dont seem to mind too much that I didnt exist before I was born, I suspect I wont mind too much when I dont exist after death, if thats the case.

Such. Is. Life.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Is there a higher rate of child molestation at churches because obviously quite a bit of it goes on there.

And universities.

[clambake]

Somehow, I went my whole life without my father ever once taking me to church and at no point did I suspect he was hiding something from me.

Before he died at age 54, plenty of conversations were had about such things and never once did it devolve into popular dogma as a realistic alternative to individual spirituality.

I, personally, do not believe in any God. Christ, his Father (apparently He and Christ are one), Allah, Buddha, Flying Spaghetti Monster, etc.

I believe reality as we see it is an illusion of concentrated energy we call matter, or less specifically, the material world.

I believe our universe is one very insignificant layer of a multiverse that has infinite others much like, evertying in between and exactly opposite anything resembling ours.

I believe blackholes are the creation of another universe as seen from the "backside". One collapse here is another Big Bang there.

I believe the only truth in life is the way in which you choose to live it.

Good, bad, great and evil are terms ascribed to those attributes and behaviors with which one does not identify with as acceptable to their value of life.

There is no punishment for mass murder in the after-life just as there is no reward for "good behavior" either. We are walking, talking temporary energy containers who will either return to a network of some source of energy that is not God with consciousness intact, or we wont.

Death is not scary, bad or tragic for the dead. You will be born, you will live, you will die. Those are 3 phases of this existence you are aware of. I am betting since I dont remember anything before birth, the chances of me remembering anything after death isnt too high.

I dont seem to mind too much that I didnt exist before I was born, I suspect I wont mind too much when I dont exist after death, if thats the case.

Such. Is. Life.

the goods

[Viva Las Espuelas]

you know instead of subjecting yourself and children to church you could just let them be exposed to religion in school...

Oh that's right, we can't have religion in schools anymore. Why is that? Could it be?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fc/Madalyn_Murray_O%27Hair.jpg

Athiests?!? <in church lady voice>
Wasnt she found in a barrel?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

If they express a desire to go i could understand not forbidding it but I will never let me my children be compelled to go to.

Its not hard. I just sat down and read 1st and 2nd Timothy. Do that with your children. its a good laugh. Ask stuff like: what do you think Mom would think about what Paul says is a woman's place? Or do you think that do you think that blindly accepting something and being unwilling to listen and discuss alternate viewpoints is a good thing?

Or better yet read the Gospels and then read Paul's shit and play compare and contrast. That line of reasoning is even better going back to the Old Testament.

Letting your kids be taught the way they teach that shit at Sunday school with coloring books and absolutely not even the slightest attempt at analysis just seems irresponsible to me.

And just think if one of them does rape your child chances are the leadership will try and cover it up.

[RandomGuy]

Somehow, I went my whole life without my father ever once taking me to church and at no point did I suspect he was hiding something from me.

Before he died at age 54, plenty of conversations were had about such things and never once did it devolve into popular dogma as a realistic alternative to individual spirituality.

I, personally, do not believe in any God. Christ, his Father (apparently He and Christ are one), Allah, Buddha, Flying Spaghetti Monster, etc.

I believe reality as we see it is an illusion of concentrated energy we call matter, or less specifically, the material world.

I believe our universe is one very insignificant layer of a multiverse that has infinite others much like, evertying in between and exactly opposite anything resembling ours.

I believe blackholes are the creation of another universe as seen from the "backside". One collapse here is another Big Bang there.

I believe the only truth in life is the way in which you choose to live it.

Good, bad, great and evil are terms ascribed to those attributes and behaviors with which one does not identify with as acceptable to their value of life.

There is no punishment for mass murder in the after-life just as there is no reward for "good behavior" either. We are walking, talking temporary energy containers who will either return to a network of some source of energy that is not God with consciousness intact, or we wont.

Death is not scary, bad or tragic for the dead. You will be born, you will live, you will die. Those are 3 phases of this existence you are aware of. I am betting since I dont remember anything before birth, the chances of me remembering anything after death isnt too high.

I dont seem to mind too much that I didnt exist before I was born, I suspect I wont mind too much when I dont exist after death, if thats the case.

Such. Is. Life.

+1

That is about what I have come to believe.

I kinda wish I could live a lot longer. Being a self-aware chunk of dead stars is fun.

[RandomGuy]

Wasnt she found in a barrel?

Something like that. A gruesome end. She was murdered over money, if memory serves.

Her relatives or whatnot had her body cremated and the ashes scattered, to keep people from praying over her corpse/grave.

Sad, all around.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

And universities.

At least we know that Sandusky is going to be buttraped in prison for a very long time and Paterno and his athletic directors are being outed in disgrace.

That being said, the culture that the NCAA has created in college athletics is disgusting exploitation.

Churches statistically do not have a higher chance of molestation. Its all about how they handle it after the fact.

[Hermey]

Sad, all around.

For who?

[LnGrrrR]

+1

That is about what I have come to believe.

I kinda wish I could live a lot longer. Being a self-aware chunk of dead stars is fun.

With the way technology is going, there's always a chance about downloading our brains onto a wire some 60 years from now... at least, that's what I'm hoping for. Death on MY terms damn it!

[coyotes_geek]

With the way technology is going, there's always a chance about downloading our brains onto a wire some 60 years from now... at least, that's what I'm hoping for. Death on MY terms damn it!

http://img2.timeinc.net/ew/dynamic/imgs/061106/151527__virt_l.jpg

Good morning LnGrrrR 2.0...

[LnGrrrR]

http://img2.timeinc.net/ew/dynamic/imgs/061106/151527__virt_l.jpg

Good morning LnGrrrR 2.0...

When you're an atheist, "something" is almost always better than "nothing". :)

Or at the least, better to have some form of control than not. Humility my ass.

[The Reckoning]

id prefer to be nothing for eternity than pixels, but thats a personal preference i guess. better yet, id prefer to be a good story and nothing more.

[mouse]

With the way technology is going, there's always a chance about downloading our brains onto a wire some 60 years from now

I predict your 5mb of brain knowledge will take at 20 seconds to download.

[DMC]

I went for a while until one day I was looking at my watch and looking outside and thought "why am I here?" and I got up and left. Then I remembered I rode with someone else. That was awkward.

[mingus]

I believe in some sort of afterlife. I don't believe in a particular God, but I believe there's something beyond the material world. I had one encounter with what I believe was a spirit. I could be wrong, but I believe otherwise.

Here's one interesting story: when my grandmother was dying my mom asked her to "let her know she's around" after she's died. My grandmother said she'd ring the doorbell to the house 3 times. It happened a couple years after her death. Ding dong ditchers? Maybe. But I believe not.

[Ginobilly]

Somehow, I went my whole life without my father ever once taking me to church and at no point did I suspect he was hiding something from me.

Before he died at age 54, plenty of conversations were had about such things and never once did it devolve into popular dogma as a realistic alternative to individual spirituality.

I, personally, do not believe in any God. Christ, his Father (apparently He and Christ are one), Allah, Buddha, Flying Spaghetti Monster, etc.

I believe reality as we see it is an illusion of concentrated energy we call matter, or less specifically, the material world.

I believe our universe is one very insignificant layer of a multiverse that has infinite others much like, evertying in between and exactly opposite anything resembling ours.

I believe blackholes are the creation of another universe as seen from the "backside". One collapse here is another Big Bang there.

I believe the only truth in life is the way in which you choose to live it.

Good, bad, great and evil are terms ascribed to those attributes and behaviors with which one does not identify with as acceptable to their value of life.

There is no punishment for mass murder in the after-life just as there is no reward for "good behavior" either. We are walking, talking temporary energy containers who will either return to a network of some source of energy that is not God with consciousness intact, or we wont.

Death is not scary, bad or tragic for the dead. You will be born, you will live, you will die. Those are 3 phases of this existence you are aware of. I am betting since I dont remember anything before birth, the chances of me remembering anything after death isnt too high.

I dont seem to mind too much that I didnt exist before I was born, I suspect I wont mind too much when I dont exist after death, if thats the case.

Such. Is. Life.

+1
wow, so you mean that Hitler never got punished for his crimes in hell?
So this means that we could bone any hot chick off the street and justify our behavior by telling them that we live in a multiverse, string theory, universe and are temporary walking entities made of energy.

[SnakeBoy]

I used to be mildly religious, but just couldn't buy it anymore, and finally made the leap a year or so ago. I feel much better for having done so.


That's interesting to me. I've gone from mildly atheistic to moderately religious as I've grown older. I've found no downside in choosing to believe in something greater than myself. What is it that makes you feel better for becoming atheist?

[Wild Cobra]

http://www.geekeshop.com/gifts/l_ci_beanstalk.jpg

Children's Book. Never was written as factual history. Same category as Sesame Street, The Wonder Pets and the Mr and Ms books.

I take it you haven't seen the real story: Just a "B" movie, but I thinks it's a good one.

wDyccolBs54

IMDB: Jack and the Beanstalk: The Real Story (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0264262/)

Netflix: Jack and the Beanstalk: The Real Story (http://movies.netflix.com/WiMovie/Jack_and_the_Beanstalk_The_Real_Story/70102816?trkid=2361637)

[TDMVPDPOY]

how about atheists who marry catholics and force to have a church ceremony or turn to catholic, but never goes to church on sundays after it....lmao@friends....

[LnGrrrR]

That's interesting to me. I've gone from mildly atheistic to moderately religious as I've grown older. I've found no downside in choosing to believe in something greater than myself. What is it that makes you feel better for becoming atheist?

Who said it was anything about "feeling better"? I mean, I don't "feel better" for being an atheist anymore so than I "feel better" for liking Pepsi over Coke.

[LnGrrrR]

+1
wow, so you mean that Hitler never got punished for his crimes in hell?
So this means that we could bone any hot chick off the street and justify our behavior by telling them that we live in a multiverse, string theory, universe and are temporary walking entities made of energy.


What do multiverses have to do with systems of morality?

[SnakeBoy]

Who said it was anything about "feeling better"? I mean, I don't "feel better" for being an atheist anymore so than I "feel better" for liking Pepsi over Coke.

RG did. Which is why I asked him to explain what he meant by it.

[Ginobilly]

What do multiverses have to do with systems of morality?

Everything! We do live in this Universe, hello! But where does morality come from? And why do you'll Atheists follow it?(Im neither, so don't bother to label me. I don't give a shit! Fuck God/religion and Atheists to) I would just go anarchy in this bitch ass universe. We are just walking information of energy like you said that's starting again in a black hole in another dimension.

[LnGrrrR]

Everything! We do live in this Universe, hello! But where does morality come from? And why do you'll Atheists follow it?(Im neither, so don't bother to label me. I don't give a shit! Fuck God/religion and Atheists to) I would just go anarchy in this bitch ass universe. We are just walking information of energy like you said that's starting again in a black hole in another dimension.

I live in a house, but I don't think that reflects on my moral framework either.

And technically, you can't be "neither". You either have faith (theist) or you don't (atheist). You either have knowledge (gnostic) or you don't (agnostic).

Atheists follow morality due to various reasons. It's a good way to live in society, it's instilled by our parents, it feels like the "right" thing to do, etc etc.

(Oh, and DR mentioned the black hole thing. :)

[LnGrrrR]

RG did. Which is why I asked him to explain what he meant by it.

Ah, mea culpa. Rereading his comment, I assume he meant he felt better because he wasn't telling people he was a Catholic/Christian when deep inside his heart he didn't feel religious. Not necessarily feeling better for being an atheist, but for being true to his own beliefs.

[SnakeBoy]

And technically, you can't be "neither". You either have faith (theist) or you don't (atheist). You either have knowledge (gnostic) or you don't (agnostic).


Everyone has faith even if they don't admit it. Everyone is agnostic even if they don't admit it.

[Blake]

Everyone has faith even if they don't admit it.

faith in what?

[Agloco]

Everyone has faith even if they don't admit it. Everyone is agnostic even if they don't admit it.

So everyone is an agnostic theist? lol

What sort of faith do I have? Do tell because I missed the memo.



And technically, you can't be "neither". You either have faith (theist) or you don't (atheist). You either have knowledge (gnostic) or you don't (agnostic).


I think you just mistyped but......Agnosticism doesn't delve into whether or not you actually possess knowledge, rather it describes one's belief that said knowledge is possible/impossible.

Yeah, hair-splitting.....but an important distinction methinks. Else we are all, by definition, agnostic as Snakeboy stated.

[LnGrrrR]

I think you just mistyped but......Agnosticism doesn't delve into whether or not you actually possess knowledge, rather it describes one's belief that said knowledge is possible/impossible.

Yeah, hair-splitting.....but an important distinction methinks. Else we are all, by definition, agnostic as Snakeboy stated.

Yes, that's a more correct way to say it. I usually just simplify it, since the idea that one can be an agnostic atheist is enough to throw people. :lol

[LnGrrrR]

Everyone has faith even if they don't admit it. Everyone is agnostic even if they don't admit it.

Disagree. I've known Calvinists who were pretty gnostic, and I myself wouldn't say I have anything that I'd define as "faith". Maybe if you watered the word down quite a bit, but then it'd be a near useless term.

[scott]

It's quite scary to think of all the people who only behave in a moral/ethical manner because they believe in God.

[Agloco]

Yes, that's a more correct way to say it. I usually just simplify it, since the idea that one can be an agnostic atheist is enough to throw people. :lol

:lol Indeed. I've had more than a few folks argue that point with me. The idea just requires a bit more thinking which, for some, can be quite painful.

[TeyshaBlue]

I live in a house, but I don't think that reflects on my moral framework either.

And technically, you can't be "neither". You either have faith (theist) or you don't (atheist). You either have knowledge (gnostic) or you don't (agnostic).

Atheists follow morality due to various reasons. It's a good way to live in society, it's instilled by our parents, it feels like the "right" thing to do, etc etc.

(Oh, and DR mentioned the black hole thing. :)

I think the argument can be made that our notions of morality are rooted in various religious beliefs/practices/mores.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Many people are taught the Christian thing through their parents. Parents or whatever setting we were raised in set our behavioral standards to a very high degree. I think people get confused about the two.

There are many means to social control. Empirical behavior is learned. What types of actions result in positive or negative feedback. There are a whole slew of cliches about it. Boy who cried wolf, once bitten twice shy, and pavlov's dogs.

If you think God is the only thing holding you back you are either a sociopath or have no idea of your surroundings which is either deluded or psychopathic.

Self control being a virtue does not need to be mandated by God. It is not for me.

[LnGrrrR]

I think the argument can be made that our notions of morality are rooted in various religious beliefs/practices/mores.

I would argue otherwise, that a system of morality must rise up as people cohabitate, to sustain the existence of society. Otherwise, why would various religions tend to the same basic tenets of morality?

[Blake]

I think the argument can be made that our notions of morality are rooted in various religious beliefs/practices/mores.

who originally came up with the various religious beliefs/practices/mores?

[TeyshaBlue]

who originally came up with the various religious beliefs/practices/mores?

Presumably, a deity.:lol

[LnGrrrR]

Presumably, a deity.:lol

That's kinda a weird thing to think about actually. Like, God is just chilling outside at his barbeque, thinking, "Damn this cow smells GREAT on the grill! Maybe I'll make some cows with arms and brains who can grill themselves. I don't see why more of this delicious burning scent could ever be a bad thing!"

[FuzzyLumpkins]

That's kinda a weird thing to think about actually. Like, God is just chilling outside at his barbeque, thinking, "Damn this cow smells GREAT on the grill! Maybe I'll make some cows with arms and brains who can grill themselves. I don't see why more of this delicious burning scent could ever be a bad thing!"

If you read Leviticus and Deuteronomy with the idea that quite a bit of the mandates were about setting up a permanent barbeque for the priest class it starts making a lot of sense.

[TeyshaBlue]

If you read Leviticus and Deuteronomy with the idea that quite a bit of the mandates were about setting up a permanent barbeque for the priest class it starts making a lot of sense.
Im gonna look into this priest gig. Free steak ftw.

[Blake]

Im gonna look into this priest gig. Free steak ftw.

Yeah, but you can forget about pork ribs, sausage and bacon

[Ginobilly]

who originally came up with the various religious beliefs/practices/mores?

Ancient Alien Theorist believe that Aliens changed our whole genome (when we where hairy apes) and gave us the ten commandments, which the majority of our moral values descend from.

[Wild Cobra]

Ancient Alien Theorist believe that Aliens changed our whole genome (when we where hairy apes) and gave us the ten commandments, which the majority of our moral values descend from.
Sumerian historical literature can be translated to mean that as well.

[TeyshaBlue]

Yeah, but you can forget about pork ribs, sausage and bacon

We all have our cross to bear.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Sumerian historical literature can be translated to mean that as well.

WTF are you talking about? So can the Bible. A burning bush can mean whatever the fuck you want it to. I think extra-dimensional intelligence over extraterrestrial makes sense if oyu are just trying to throw shit against the wall in hopes of someone buying it.

Woohoo flying elephants 4tw. Lets believe it so we don't have to kill each other!

[Wild Cobra]

We all have our cross to bear.
Bear is edible too!

[FuzzyLumpkins]

We all have our cross to bear.

Half of the mandates were about what is food, how to kill food, how to prepare it, when to prepare it, when to bring them 'sacrifices' etc. Its pretty transparent.

thats actually why I think Jesus was cool in what he actually did. he saw the racket and threw a shit fit over it. His anger was a righteous fury. Too bad it doesn't jive with the rest of his ethic but thats it happens.

[DarkReign]

+1
wow, so you mean that Hitler never got punished for his crimes in hell?

That is correct.


So this means that we could bone any hot chick off the street and justify our behavior by telling them that we live in a multiverse, string theory, universe and are temporary walking entities made of energy.

Correct as well.

There is no judgement, as Western religion would have one believe.

Just an opinion.

[mouse]

A burning bush can mean whatever the fuck you want it to.

http://scienceblogs.com/clock/upload/2007/06/burning%20Bush.jpg





















http://www.holytaco.com/wp-content/uploads/images/2010/fire-crotch.jpg

[Spurtacular]

**

[RandomGuy]

**



I go to church and take my kid every now and then just to pacify my own mom.


So that is your hot take.

When my mom died, and my dad had a preacher in to pray, even though it was against her wishes, my wife/sons still held hands, because it was the politie, and respectful thing to do. I got the impression it was distantly perfunctory for the preacher, but meaningful for my dad.

That is the choice a lot of non-believers have to do. Now that my kids are teenagers, I might take them to a church service or two anyways, if they are curious about it. Maybe in a year or so after the virus has run its course.