When some of us suggested...

[Yonivore]

...Fast and Furious was designed to create a pretext for more gun control, Obama ass-kissers ridiculed the idea.

:corn:

Documents: ATF used "Fast and Furious" to make the case for gun regulations (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-57338546-10391695/documents-atf-used-fast-and-furious-to-make-the-case-for-gun-regulations/)


ATF officials didn't intend to publicly disclose their own role in letting Mexican cartels obtain the weapons, but emails show they discussed using the sales, including sales encouraged by ATF, to justify a new gun regulation called "Demand Letter 3". That would require some U.S. gun shops to report the sale of multiple rifles or "long guns." Demand Letter 3 was so named because it would be the third ATF program demanding gun dealers report tracing information.

On July 14, 2010 after ATF headquarters in Washington D.C. received an update on Fast and Furious, ATF Field Ops Assistant Director Mark Chait emailed Bill Newell, ATF's Phoenix Special Agent in Charge of Fast and Furious:

"Bill - can you see if these guns were all purchased from the same (licensed gun dealer) and at one time. We are looking at anecdotal cases to support a demand letter on long gun multiple sales. Thanks."
In another world, this writer would be receiving a Pulitzer and Fast and Furious would be seen for what it is, one of the worst scandals in American history.

This is a perfect example of how the media picks and chooses winners.

If this were not an administration to which they have obviously pledged some fealty, the drumbeat of impeachment and/or resignation would be deafening.

Over 300 murders -- one of an American law enforcement officer -- have been committed with guns the cartels obtained through Fast and Furious.

And, yet, Eric Holder is still employed and the Obama administration continues to act as if this were no big deal.

[George Gervin's Afro]

...Fast and Furious was designed to create a pretext for more gun control, Obama ass-kissers ridiculed the idea.

:corn:

Documents: ATF used "Fast and Furious" to make the case for gun regulations (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-57338546-10391695/documents-atf-used-fast-and-furious-to-make-the-case-for-gun-regulations/)


In another world, this writer would be receiving a Pulitzer and Fast and Furious would be seen for what it is, one of the worst scandals in American history.

This is a perfect example of how the media picks and chooses winners.

If this were not an administration to which they have obviously pledged some fealty, the drumbeat of impeachment and/or resignation would be deafening.

Over 300 murders -- one of an American law enforcement officer -- have been committed with guns the cartels obtained through Fast and Furious.

And, yet, Eric Holder is still employed and the Obama administration continues to act as if this were no big deal.

So, what legislation came because of this conspiracy?

[Yonivore]

So, what legislation came because of this conspiracy?
The fraud was discovered.

Why is the enactment of legislation your barometer for whether or not this qualifies as a scandal?

I'd think intentionally allowing guns to walk into a crime-infested country, where they were then used to murder hundreds, would be a bright line even a Chris Matthews tingle wouldn't survive.

[JoeChalupa]

yeah, there were virtually no murders by the cartels with guns before this scandal. None at all.

[Yonivore]

yeah, there were virtually no murders caused by guns before this scandal.
Not by guns intentionally supplied the U.S. Government.

[TeyshaBlue]

I dont see a demand letter as gun control. Its responsible tracking of a particular class of weapons. However, thr Fast and Furious program was/is an ill conceived disaster. The architects should be looking for jobs IMO.

[JoeChalupa]

Not by guns intentionally supplied the U.S. Government.

Point taken, but it isn't like they couldn't acquire the guns anyhow.

[Yonivore]

Point taken, but it isn't like they couldn't acquire the guns anyhow.
I think you're missing the point, Joe. We're not talking about the Cartels' capabilities, methods, or resources. We're talking about the United States government being complicit in over 300 murders.

[Yonivore]

I dont see a demand letter as gun control. Its responsible tracking of a particular class of weapons. However, thr Fast and Furious program was/is an ill conceived disaster. The architects should be looking for jobs IMO.
The Demand Letter required more reporting of certain gun sales -- that equals more gun control.

And, it wasn't "an ill-conceived disaster." The gun walking was intentional.

[JoeChalupa]

I think you're missing the point, Joe. We're not talking about the Cartels' capabilities, methods, or resources. We're talking about the United States government being complicit in over 300 murders.

So then you are saying a family should be able to charge a Gun Shop owner as complicit in murders too?

[johnsmith]

So then you are saying a family should be able to charge a Gun Shop owner as complicit in murders too?

So then you are saying that you are ok with the United States Government supplying weapons to drug cartels in Mexico?

[johnsmith]

I know some of these guys are your cousins Joe, but come on.

[Winehole23]

tacky, john

[johnsmith]

tacky, john

Too much?

[Winehole23]

unless you're willing to lay out how the bias works in this case

[johnsmith]

noted.

[Winehole23]

how does being Mexican prejudice one for/against the operation?

If anything, i'd think being Mexican, or having Mexican relatives, would predispose one against the op.

[Winehole23]

also, i'm pretty sure there's no direct link b/w having Mexican relatives and being for/against gun control

[johnsmith]

Ok, ignore the post where I referenced Joe's cousins.

[johnsmith]

Now back on topic.

[johnsmith]

I said noted......geez.

[johnsmith]

I feel like I got "virtually scolded" by Winehole.

[CosmicCowboy]

So then you are saying a family should be able to charge a Gun Shop owner as complicit in murders too?

Straw man

However, speaking of straw, a straw purchaser that provided a firearm to a criminal who commits a murder with it could definitely be charged as an accessory to that murder.

[Winehole23]

that's right, I'm the scold

[Yonivore]

So then you are saying a family should be able to charge a Gun Shop owner as complicit in murders too?
You don't know much about the Fast and Furious scandal, do you?

The Gun Shop owners were strong-armed, by the government, in participating and, given assurances the weapons would not be taken across the border. Some of them complained about being involved, at all, but it fell on deaf ears at Holder's Justice Department.

[Winehole23]

now we've determined that, please feel free to continue to abuse Joe for his ethnicity

[Yonivore]

how does being Mexican prejudice one for/against the operation?

If anything, i'd think being Mexican, or having Mexican relatives, would predispose one against the op.
I agree.

The Mexican government was intentionally left out of the loop on the Fast and Furious gun walking operation and, from what I hear, they're pretty pissed.

This was a complete Cartel - U. S. government operation.

[George Gervin's Afro]

...Fast and Furious was designed to create a pretext for more gun control, Obama ass-kissers ridiculed the idea.

.

What gun control laws have been enacted because of this conspiracy? You made the claim so.. let us know when you find it..

[TeyshaBlue]

The Demand Letter required more reporting of certain gun sales -- that equals more gun control.

And, it wasn't "an ill-conceived disaster." The gun walking was intentional.

What part of "ill conceived" do you not understand?:rolleyes

[Yonivore]

What gun control laws have been enacted because of this conspiracy? You made the claim so.. let us know when you find it..
They failed. Fast and Furious blew up in their faces. But, the latest memorandums, dumped by Holder last Friday, clearly show the ATF was looking to use Fast and Furious sales as a pretext to require more stringent controls on gun sales.

You must have missed my response to that earlier.

I also asked why the enactment of legislation would be your barometer of whether or not this was a serious scandal -- I never called it a conspiracy; it does, however, appear to be deliberate.

The obvious question is, why would the U. S. Government intentionally allow guns to walk across the Mexican border with absolutely no controls or means to track them?

[Winehole23]

What part of "ill conceived" do you not understand?he probably assumed you were euphemizing. being yoni means never having to ask others to clarify. he'll tell you what you meant.

[Yonivore]

What part of "ill conceived" do you not understand?:rolleyes
The part that minimizes the intent of the act.

I should have said it was worse than "ill-conceived." I think its a criminal act.

[Winehole23]

see? you were minimizing.

[Yonivore]

see? you were minimizing.
"Ill-conceived" suggests, to me, Teysha Blue believes there was some noble intent. "maliciously conceived," fits better.

But, y'all continue to argue semantics, if you wish. That you do seems, to me, suggest you don't believe this is a serious matter.

[TeyshaBlue]

"Ill-conceived" suggests, to me, Teysha Blue believes there was some noble intent. "maliciously conceived," fits better.

But, y'all continue to argue semantics, if you wish. That you do seems, to me, suggest you don't believe this is a serious matter.

Actually, laughably stupid is closer to my intent.

[Winehole23]

...

[Yonivore]

Because it's not important what Teysha Blue meant by "ill-conceived disaster."

Because I used the phrase in my post to contrast with my belief it was much worse than an "ill-conceived disaster?"

[TeyshaBlue]

The notion that reporting sales = gun control is ill conceived.:lol

[Yonivore]

Actually, laughably stupid is closer to my intent.
Okay, so what were they laughably and stupidly trying to achieve by allowing thousands of guns to be taken across the border, into Mexico, with absolutely not checks or tracking devices, where they were then used to murder hundreds of Mexican citizens and, up until now, one U. S. Law Enforcement Officer?

What was the intent of the program?

And, if you arrive at the same conclusion as seems to be coming to light now -- that they were attempting to influence domestic gun policy -- how is that not more than laughably stupid?

[boutons_deux]

gun-running pre-dates Obama's Exec, dubya's Exec did it, too.

And what's wrong with more gun control and tons more gun control enforcement since criminal gun dealers and private gun sellers violate the current regulations with impunity?

[TeyshaBlue]

Lrn2contextualize.

[Yonivore]

The notion that reporting sales = gun control is ill conceived.:lol
It amounts to gun registration.

[Winehole23]

And, if you arrive at the same conclusion as seems to be coming to light now -- that they were attempting to influence domestic gun policy -- how is that not more than laughably stupid?this conclusion is laughably stupid, imho. there are much easier ways to influence domestic policy.

[TeyshaBlue]

It amounts to gun registration.

No. It amounts to reporting traceabilty of gun sales to a particular class of weapon.. We already have gun registration.

[Yonivore]

this conclusion is laughably stupid, imho. there are much easier ways to influence domestic policy.
Wow, y'all like to chase rabbits.

Can we now get back to whether or not you believe the U. S. Government was intentionally complicit in the murder of over 300 Mexican citizens and one U. S. Law Enforcement Officer.

And, if you do believe that, what should be done about this "ill-conceived, laughably stupid," criminal act?

[Yonivore]

No. It amounts to reporting traceabilty of gun sales to a particular class of weapon.. We already have gun registration.
Fine.

Is it alright with you that the U. S. Government is complicit in the murder of hundreds of Mexican citizens and a U. S. Law Enforcement Officer to create the pretext for instituting a minor gun policy?

[TeyshaBlue]

Wow, y'all like to chase rabbits.

Can we now get back to whether or not you believe the U. S. Government was intentionally complicit in the murder of over 300 Mexican citizens and one U. S. Law Enforcement Officer.

And, if you do believe that, what should be done about this "ill-conceived, laughably stupid," criminal act?

Then stop breeding rabbits, knucklehead.

[Yonivore]

Then stop breeding rabbits, knucklehead.
Fine. Care to get back to the topic, then?

[CosmicCowboy]

Quite honestly I'm surprised that anyone in here would try to defend the indefensible actions of the Justice Department no matter which color glasses they see the world through...

[Winehole23]

Can we now get back to whether or not you believe the U. S. Government was intentionally complicit in the murder of over 300 Mexican citizens and one U. S. Law Enforcement Officer.Complicit? Undeniably.

Intentionally? Not sure.

And, if you do believe that, what should be done about this "ill-conceived, laughably stupid," criminal act?Calling it a crime begs a question better settled in court, but I think those responsible should be fired.

[Winehole23]

Quite honestly I'm surprised that anyone in here would try to defend the indefensible actions of the Justice Department no matter which color glasses they see the world through...who defended them?

[TeyshaBlue]

Fine.

Is it alright with you that the U. S. Government is complicit in the murder of hundreds of Mexican citizens and a U. S. Law Enforcement Officer to create the pretext for instituting a minor gun policy?

No.
Also, I take issue with your conclusion...F&F being a vehicle designed to deliver demand letter legislation.

No doubt that the ATF felt like where were issues with illicit weapon sales. It doesnt follow that Fast and Furious existed to create demand letters. Could they be tools they might benefit from? The notion thst "Hey. We need to find a way to determine who`s selling long guns and how many." is not exactly the definition of nefarious.

[TeyshaBlue]

who defended them?

Yoni's strawmen.

[CosmicCowboy]

Yoni offered his interpretation of the e-mails in the OP detailing the fact that the Justice department wanted the fast and furious data to back up their desire for stronger gun control laws. That was hardly a giant leap in logic but y'all dogpiled him for it. Is it your contention that they were unrelated and just circumstantial?

[Winehole23]

LE wanting stronger gun control laws isn't new and isn't forbidden. Pinning hopes on the operation wasn't corruption either. Politically objectionable, perhaps, but not illegal or even unethical imho.

[TeyshaBlue]

Yoni offered his interpretation of the e-mails in the OP detailing the fact that the Justice department wanted the fast and furious data to back up their desire for stronger gun control laws. That was hardly a giant leap in logic but y'all dogpiled him for it. Is it your contention that they were unrelated and just circumstantial?

Nope.
Neither were they the building blocks of F&F.

[Yonivore]

Complicit? Undeniably.
And that's not criminal?


Intentionally? Not sure.
It's already been admitted...they just won't answer the question of why they intentionally allowed the guns to walk without any checks or tracking capabilities.


Calling it a crime begs a question better settled in court, but I think those responsible should be fired.
300+ murders, facilitated by your government, and you don't want heads to roll today?

[Winehole23]

Fast and Furious was a dangerous, stupid and massively incompetent operation. calling it a crime seems a bit of a reach tho.

[Yonivore]

Fast and Furious was a dangerous, stupid and massively incompetent operation. calling it a crime seems a bit of a reach tho.
The strawman purchases alone, were a crime.

The strawman purchases that were then intentionally allowed to be carried across an international border, without notifying the receiving government, where they were then used to murder more than 300 people, could almost be construed as an act of war on Mexico.

[Winehole23]

300+ murders, facilitated by your government, and you don't want heads to roll today?I said I do. Can't you take yes for an answer?

[CosmicCowboy]

Nope.
Neither were they the building blocks of F&F.

Based on the few actual facts/memos that have been released to date that would be a rational assumption.

I really have to wonder, though...we had Obama, Janet Incompetano and President Calderon really pushing in the media for stronger gun control laws back when F&F was in full bloom...based on all the ducking and covering going on at Justice it really isn't a huge leap of logic to at least wonder if they were actually related...

[Yonivore]

LE wanting stronger gun control laws isn't new and isn't forbidden. Pinning hopes on the operation wasn't corruption either. Politically objectionable, perhaps, but not illegal or even unethical imho.
The same people that were the architects of Fast and Furious were the ones suggesting the sales be used as a pretext for the gun control measures.

You characterize it as though one arm of the government was willing to use an "ill-conceived," "laughably stupid," program, undertaken by another arm of the government, in order to justify initiating more controls on the sale of guns when, in fact, the memos and e-mails show the two ideas have the same origins in the ATF.

[Winehole23]

The strawman purchases alone, were a crime.

The strawman purchases that were then intentionally allowed to be carried across an international border, without notifying the receiving government, where they were then used to murder more than 300 people, could almost be construed as an act of war on Mexico.Crimes against Mexico are presumably subject to Mexican law. The strawman purchases, I'm not so sure. Could the states have anything to say about them?

[Winehole23]

it really isn't a huge leap of logic to at least wonder if they were actually related...not if you've already made up your mind

[Winehole23]

You characterize it as though one arm of the government was willing to use an "ill-conceived," "laughably stupid," program, undertaken by another arm of the government, in order to justify initiating more controls on the sale of guns when, in fact, the memos and e-mails show the two ideas have the same origins in the ATF.It's not a crime for LE to want gun control.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Fine.

Is it alright with you that the U. S. Government is complicit in the murder of hundreds of Mexican citizens and a U. S. Law Enforcement Officer to create the pretext for instituting a minor gun policy?

we killed thousand of innocent Iraqi civilians... and no outrage...

I guess you'd consider those folks as being better off..

[George Gervin's Afro]

Based on the few actual facts/memos that have been released to date that would be a rational assumption.

I really have to wonder, though...we had Obama, Janet Incompetano and President Calderon really pushing in the media for stronger gun control laws back when F&F was in full bloom...based on all the ducking and covering going on at Justice it really isn't a huge leap of logic to at least wonder if they were actually related...

it's actually a large leap... typical of you though

[Yonivore]

we killed thousand of innocent Iraqi civilians... and no outrage...
Please, there's been nothing but full-throated condemnation, calls for impeachment, war trials, and assassination from every quarter that disagreed with our actions in Iraq.


I guess you'd consider those folks as being better off..
No, they're still dead but, the difference is, right or wrong, it's been reasonably argued we were engaged in a legitimate military action in which, unfortunately, innocent people are killed and injured.

What's the Obama administration's excuse for the innocents murdered in Mexico?

[Winehole23]

And that's not criminal?


It's already been admitted...they just won't answer the question of why they intentionally allowed the guns to walk without any checks or tracking capabilities.moving the goal posts. you said they intentionally abetted murder. there's a step or two missing in your syllogism.

[TeyshaBlue]

Please, there's been nothing but full-throated condemnation, calls for impeachment, war trials, and assassination from every quarter that disagreed with our actions in Iraq.


No, they're still dead but, the difference is, right or wrong, it's been reasonably argued we were engaged in a legitimate military action in which, unfortunately, innocent people are killed and injured.

What's the Obama administration's excuse for the innocents murdered in Mexico?

The obama administration didn't murder innocent Mexican citizens.

[Winehole23]

in the courtroom of semantics of course the DOJ has already been charged, convicted and sentenced

[Yonivore]

moving the goal posts. you said they intentionally abetted murder. there's a step or two missing in your syllogism.
I said they were complicit in murder by intentionally allowing the guns to walk over the border in the hands of drug cartels.

But, if you want to make that leap, I won't stop you. I think it's reasonable to assume the cartels intended to use the weapons -- acquired through the U. S. Government's deliberate actions -- to kill people.

[Yonivore]

The obama administration didn't murder innocent Mexican citizens.
Their deliberate actions led to the murder of innocent Mexican citizens when it was reasonable to conclude it would.

[Winehole23]

that's essentially semantic. legally, it's nonsense.

[Winehole23]

ciao!

[Yonivore]

in the courtroom of semantics of course the DOJ has already been charged, convicted and sentenced
So, defend them.

What is their justification? They won't answer the question of why...maybe you'd like to take a stab at it.

[CosmicCowboy]

it's actually a large leap... typical of you though


and not using logic at all, typical of you...

[Winehole23]

So, defend them.

What is their justification? They won't answer the question of why...maybe you'd like to take a stab at it.no thanks. i'm not really invested in it personally and anyway one must be wary of interpolating one's own thoughts in other people's heads.

[Winehole23]

oh sorry, forgot who I was talking to.

[Winehole23]

and not using logic at all, typical of you... abusing it as you do is clearly much preferable

[TeyshaBlue]

Their deliberate actions led to the murder of innocent Mexican citizens when it was reasonable to conclude it would.

No. The deliberate actions of the cartels lead to the murder of innocents.

[CosmicCowboy]

abusing it as you do is clearly much preferable

Obviously ones predisposition to believe/disbelieve the Obama Justice Department affects ones definition of abusing logic. Guess we will just have to agree to disagree about this one...

[Winehole23]

perfect example. because i attacked yoni's damfoolishness, you assume i am defending, or believe, the DOJ

[Wild Cobra]

Why isn't anyone in jail yet over this?

[Winehole23]

that is a nearly perfect parody of logic, CC

[ChumpDumper]

Their deliberate actions led to the murder of innocent Mexican citizens when it was reasonable to conclude it would.Spoken like a true rabid gun control proponent.

[mavs>spurs]

Alex is right again

[JoeChalupa]

So then you are saying that you are ok with the United States Government supplying weapons to drug cartels in Mexico?

No, but it isn't like the US Government hasn't supplied weapons to other countries that have come back to bite us in the ass. Come on, be real now.

[JoeChalupa]

I know some of these guys are your cousins Joe, but come on.

Hell, you could be my cousin for all I know.

[JoeChalupa]

Straw man

However, speaking of straw, a straw purchaser that provided a firearm to a criminal who commits a murder with it could definitely be charged as an accessory to that murder.

So if they are not a "criminal" at the time of purchase they are off the hook? A background check gives them a pass?

[JoeChalupa]

No. The deliberate actions of the cartels lead to the murder of innocents.

I concur. If not then, IMHO, all gun dealers are guilty of aiding criminal activity.

[CosmicCowboy]

So if they are not a "criminal" at the time of purchase they are off the hook? A background check gives them a pass?

You realize that straw purchases on their own are illegal, right?

[ChumpDumper]

You realize that straw purchases on their own are illegal, right?How does the seller know it's a straw purchase?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I feel like I got "virtually scolded" by Winehole.

Hes been the forum paternal arbiter ever since that list of scott's was begun to be put together.

[CosmicCowboy]

How does the seller know it's a straw purchase? It's illegal for the purchaser not the seller, unless the seller has reason to be suspicious. THE ATF gets to make the call on whether they had reason to be suspicious which is totally fucked. In the fast and furious case, the SELLERS went to the ATF and said they thought they were straw buyers and the ATF told them to sell to them anyway.

[ChumpDumper]

It's illegal for the purchaser not the seller, unless the seller has reason to be suspicious. THE ATF gets to make the call on whether they had reason to be suspicious which is totally fucked. In the fast and furious case, the SELLERS went to the ATF and said they thought they were straw buyers and the ATF told them to sell to them anyway.If only there was a way to track the guns after the purchase....

[JoeChalupa]

Now another shooting on the Virginia Campus. Whom ever supplied the weapons needs to be held accountable.

[CosmicCowboy]

If only there was a way to track the guns after the purchase....

So you advocate gun registration?

[Winehole23]

Hes been the forum paternal arbiter ever since that list of scott's was begun to be put together.jealous?

[Winehole23]

...ever since that list of scott's was begun to be put together.actually, people have accused me of it for years.

[ChumpDumper]

So you advocate gun registration?So you advocate jumping to conclusions?

That would do nothing for the pipeline of guns going from the US government through the Mexican military to the cartels. I think that's probably a bigger problem than Fast and Specious.

[Yonivore]

No. The deliberate actions of the cartels lead to the murder of innocents.
If I give you a gun, knowing your going to murder someone with it, I'm guilty of something.

[Yonivore]

perfect example. because i attacked yoni's damfoolishness, you assume i am defending, or believe, the DOJ
What's "damfoolishness" about anything I've posted, so far?

[Winehole23]

the usual: circularity, cherry picking, distortion, hairsplitting, gross political bias

[Yonivore]

No, but it isn't like the US Government hasn't supplied weapons to other countries that have come back to bite us in the ass. Come on, be real now.
These aren't countries and, to be fair, if the U.S. Government articulated a rationale for why they would deliberately arm Mexican Drug Cartels, you'd have at least the basis for a comparison.

[ChumpDumper]

If I give you a gun, knowing your going to murder someone with it, I'm guilty of something.How do you know?

[Yonivore]

..

[Yonivore]

you're guilty of something
Accessory to murder, at the very least.

[Yonivore]

Now another shooting on the Virginia Campus. Whom ever supplied the weapons needs to be held accountable.
If the gun was illegally obtained or if the seller did not do due diligence and follow the law, during the purchase, absolutely.

[Winehole23]

...pseudo-legalisms, strawman arguments, broken syllogisms

[ChumpDumper]

If the gun was illegally obtained or if the seller did not do due diligence and follow the law, during the purchase, absolutely.Does that include asking the purchaser if the gun will be used for murderin'?

[TeyshaBlue]

If I give you a gun, knowing your going to murder someone with it, I'm guilty of something.

Lol @ something.:lol

[TeyshaBlue]

That's quite the backtrack from murdering innocents.

[Yonivore]

...pseudo-legalisms, strawman arguments, broken syllogisms
Murdered Mexicans, illegal straw man purchases, ignoring trafficking of illegally purchased weapons across international borders, intimidating legitimate gun dealers into participating in their schemes, and a trove of memos and e-mails pointing to two things;

1) The ATF deliberately allowed weapons to cross the border into Mexico without making any attempt to control their destinations, track their transit, or prevent their illegal use; and,

2) The ATF proposed using the straw man purchases they orchestrated -- the resulting crimes in Mexico -- as a pretext for instituting more controls on the sale of such weapons.

[Winehole23]

...oh, and moving the goal posts

[ChumpDumper]

So you're saying they should be tried in Mexico?

[Yonivore]

That's quite the backtrack from murdering innocents.
I'm not backtracking from anything.

The U. S. Government appears to have been a knowing accessory to the murder of hundreds of Mexicans and at least one U. S. Law Enforcement Officer.

They facilitated the Straw Man Purchases.

They turned their backs as the weapons went to Mexico.

They didn't stop the program until the U. S. Peace Officer was killed and it turned out to have been committed with a gun they allowed to cross the border and Fast and Furious was revealed to the public.

[Winehole23]

Murdered Mexicans, illegal straw man purchases, ignoring trafficking of illegally purchased weapons across international borders, intimidating legitimate gun dealers into participating in their schemes, and a trove of memos and e-mails pointing to two things;

1) The ATF deliberately allowed weapons to cross the border into Mexico without making any attempt to control their destinations, track their transit, or prevent their illegal use; and,

2) The ATF proposed using the straw man purchases they orchestrated -- the resulting crimes in Mexico -- as a pretext for instituting more controls on the sale of such weapons.Those aren't the elements of murder, counselor.

[Yonivore]

...oh, and moving the goal posts
I haven't moved anything.

[Winehole23]

May I add prevarication to the list?

[Yonivore]

Those aren't the elements of murder, counselor.
You're the one playing defense attorney.

Are you suggesting the U. S. Government's actions aren't a crime and that they didn't result in the deaths of hundreds of Mexicans?

If so, just say it.

[Yonivore]

May I add prevarication to the list?
Sure, if you can demonstrate the lie.

[Winehole23]

You're the one playing defense attorney.You only wish. Me attacking your inanity is not a defense of anything.

Are you suggesting the U. S. Government's actions aren't a crime and that they didn't result in the deaths of hundreds of Mexicans?I never denied people died, but your conclusion that F&F is a criminal scheme start to finish appears not to be well supported.

[Yonivore]

You only wish. Me attacking your inanity is not a defense of anything.

I never denied people died, but your conclusion that F&F is a criminal scheme start to finish appears not to be well supported.
Then what was the purpose of allowing guns to walk, unabated, into Mexico, in the hands of drug cartels that have, for years, been engaged in one of the bloodiest assaults on their own people anywhere in the world?

It's a simple question.

Why?

[JoeChalupa]

Maybe the Govt thought those guns were going to be used for a lawful purpose? You know, like the reasons people say they need assault rifles.

[Winehole23]

dunno.

the stated aim, if memory serves, was to learn something about the flow of illegal arms. how they expected to do that without tracking the guns is a bit beyond me.

[CosmicCowboy]

dunno.

the stated aim, if memory serves, was to learn something about the flow of illegal arms. how they expected to do that without tracking the guns is a bit beyond me.

Apparently beyond them too. That's why some of us suspect a different motive for the operation.

[Winehole23]

Sure, if you can demonstrate the lie.saying you haven't moved the goal posts is not a straight tale. in fairness, you do it so often maybe you don't notice.

[ElNono]

Yoni decided to bring the weak sauce again?

Yoni, are you still a cracker for Cain? :lol

[Yonivore]

You only wish. Me attacking your inanity is not a defense of anything.

I never denied people died, but your conclusion that F&F is a criminal scheme start to finish appears not to be well supported.
And, I think a distinction needs to be made here.

I never claimed Fast and Furious was a "criminal scheme start to finish." It is my assertion the U. S. Government engaged in/facilitated/encouraged criminal activity (Straw man purchases), abdicated their responsibility to prevent the illegally purchased guns to fall into criminal hands and cross the international border, and were indifferent to the murders committed with those weapons -- even though they should have known that's exactly for what they would be used.

Why?

Don't you want to know why? Are you so incurious simply because it would mean agreeing with me?

[Yonivore]

saying you haven't moved the goal posts is not a straight tale. in fairness, you do it so often maybe you don't notice.
I've not changed my assertion in this thread once.

You lied in your last post saying I had claimed Fast and Furious was a criminal scheme from beginning to end. I did no such thing.

[ElNono]

Yoni, did you know the government does the same thing with money laundering?

U.S. Agents Launder Mexican Profits of Drug Cartels (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/04/world/americas/us-drug-agents-launder-profits-of-mexican-cartels.html)

[Winehole23]

Apparently beyond them too. That's why some of us suspect a different motive for the operation.like what?

[ChumpDumper]

...and were indifferent to the murders committed with those weapons -- even though they should have known that's exactly for they would be used.How should they have known that?


Are you so incurious simply because it would mean agreeing with me?Yoni is supremely incurious when it comes to investigating those for whom he leads cheers.

[George Gervin's Afro]

So if the DEA sells a drug to a buyer (with the thought of following the purchaser to see where they sell it) and someone over doses on these drugs, is the US Govt guilty of murder? Is this what Yoni is trying to sell?

[Yonivore]

like what?
And, we've come full circle...

Documents: ATF used "Fast and Furious" to make the case for gun regulations (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-57338546-10391695/documents-atf-used-fast-and-furious-to-make-the-case-for-gun-regulations/)


On July 14, 2010 after ATF headquarters in Washington D.C. received an update on Fast and Furious, ATF Field Ops Assistant Director Mark Chait emailed Bill Newell, ATF’s Phoenix Special Agent in Charge of Fast and Furious:

“Bill – can you see if these guns were all purchased from the same (licensed gun dealer) and at one time. We are looking at anecdotal cases to support a demand letter on long gun multiple sales. Thanks.”

[George Gervin's Afro]

And, we've come full circle...

Documents: ATF used "Fast and Furious" to make the case for gun regulations (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-57338546-10391695/documents-atf-used-fast-and-furious-to-make-the-case-for-gun-regulations/)



ATF Field Ops Assistant Director Mark Chait emailed Bill Newell, ATF’s Phoenix Special Agent in Charge of Fast and Furious:

so these guys were trying to influence gun laws? an email?

[ChumpDumper]

And, we've come full circle...

Documents: ATF used "Fast and Furious" to make the case for gun regulations (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-57338546-10391695/documents-atf-used-fast-and-furious-to-make-the-case-for-gun-regulations/)You do realize the timing shits on your conspiracy theory, don't you?

[CosmicCowboy]

So if the DEA sells a drug to a buyer (with the thought of following the purchaser to see where they sell it) and someone over doses on these drugs, is the US Govt guilty of murder? Is this what Yoni is trying to sell?

I think you have it backwards. DEA works bottom up with snitches to catch the wholesaler. They don't sell drugs to a dealer to see who the users are.

[Yonivore]

So if the DEA sells a drug to a buyer (with the thought of following the purchaser to see where they sell it) and someone over doses on these drugs, is the US Govt guilty of murder? Is this what Yoni is trying to sell?
Your analogy fails because they made no attempt to follow the purchased guns.

[Winehole23]

You lied in your last post saying I had claimed Fast and Furious was a criminal scheme from beginning to end. I did no such thing.


This was a complete Cartel - U. S. government operation.http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5498064&postcount=27

the U. S. Government is complicit in the murder of hundreds of Mexican citizens and a U. S. Law Enforcement Officer to create the pretext for instituting a minor gun policyhttp://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5498178&postcount=46

The strawman purchases that were then intentionally allowed to be carried across an international border, without notifying the receiving government, where they were then used to murder more than 300 people, could almost be construed as an act of war on Mexico.terrorism! (post#57)

What's the Obama administration's excuse for the innocents murdered in Mexico?post #68

there's some plausible deniability, but the rhetorical thrust is clear...

[Yonivore]

so these guys were trying to influence gun laws? an email?
The article quotes an e-mail, between two individuals familiar with Fast and Furious, that was among the documents dumped by Holder last Friday. If they knew they were complicit in facilitating the straw purchases now being proposed to be used as a pretext for the regulation, I'd say that pretty damning evidence.

Look, I'm inclined to believe the nefarious motives of this administration...I think Obama is a scumbag that dragged a bunch of other scumbags to Washington with him, including Eric Holder. You're not. We'll see how it plays out but, I'm not going to beat this dead horse or do the investigation for you.

I think it only gets worse for them, as time goes by and I hope Sheryl Atkisson and Representative Issa stay on their asses. It would be nice to see the rest of the media show as much interest in this as they Herman Cain's alleged infidelities...

If you're curious, you'll satisfy yourself. If not, I can't make you.

[Winehole23]

i forgot this all began under GWB, so naturally it couldn't have been criminal at the onset. i regret the oversight.

[Yonivore]

Complicit? Undeniably.
Those are your words and that's all I've ever claimed.

Y'all jumped all over me when I characterized Teysha Blue's "ill-conceived disaster" comment as minimizing the breadth of this scandal and now you deign to characterize my words as implying or suggesting anything?

I've never said the U. S. Government directly murdered anyone.

[Yonivore]

i forgot this all began under GWB, so naturally it couldn't have been criminal at the onset. i regret the oversight.
Unsupervised gun walking -- the act that led to F&F guns showing up at crime scenes -- did not begin during the Bush administration.

[Winehole23]

Those are your words and that's all I've ever claimed.
i may have agreed with you too quickly. i disbelieve the US was complicit in murder. that the ATF ran guns is uncontroversially true.

[boutons_deux]

so it was supervised gun walking, SO MUCH BETTER with that split hair! :lol

[Yonivore]

i may have agreed with you too quickly. i disbelieve the US was complicit in murder.
So, can I call you a liar?

And, would you agree if I was more precise and said, the U. S. Government was knowingly complicit in criminal acts [straw man purchases and gun running by Mexican drug cartels] that resulted in the murder of more than 300 Mexican citizens?


...that the ATF ran guns is uncontroversially true.
Do you want to know why they did it?

[Winehole23]

http://wings.buffalo.edu/law/bclc/bclrarticles/4%281%29/weisbergpdf.pdf

[Yonivore]

http://wings.buffalo.edu/law/bclc/bclrarticles/4%281%29/weisbergpdf.pdf
I've been more precise and I'm not claiming they were complicit in the murders. What's your point?

Are you saying they weren't complicit in the straw purchase crimes?

They set them up.

Are you suggesting they weren't complicit in the crimes violated by the drug cartels carrying the illegally purchased weapons across the international border with Mexico?

They turned their backs.

[ElNono]

I've been more precise and I'm not claiming they were complicit in the murders. What's your point?

http://i56.tinypic.com/1slj61.gif

[Winehole23]

... would you agree if I was more precise and said, the U. S. Government was knowingly complicit in criminal acts [straw man purchases and gun running by Mexican drug cartels] that resulted in the murder of more than 300 Mexican citizens?That's more precise, and far more plausible. I'd say whether they were criminal acts is a question for a grand jury. I'm far less sure about the legalities of the situation than you seem to be.

Do you want to know why they did it?I have no reason to assume, and you have not demonstrated, that the DOJ is lying about the reasons for the operation. Good intentions and massive incompetence have been known to walk hand in hand.

[Winehole23]

I assume massive incompetence, you assume crime. what an outrage.

[ChumpDumper]

I'm not claiming they were complicit in the murders.
Fine.

Is it alright with you that the U. S. Government is complicit in the murder of hundreds of Mexican citizens and a U. S. Law Enforcement Officer to create the pretext for instituting a minor gun policy?:lmao

[Winehole23]

perhaps Yoni misspoke. he did admit to verbal imprecision, if i read that right.

[ChumpDumper]

perhaps Yoni misspoke. he did admit to verbal imprecision, if i read that right.He admits to lying as well.

[Winehole23]

"i've been more precise.."

[Winehole23]

i don't think yoni keeps track of what he says. he'll throw anything on the wall and does.

[Winehole23]

He admits to lying as well.knowingly? that would surprise me.

[Winehole23]

Yoni never admits anything, even with it staring him in the face.

[Yonivore]

That's more precise, and far more plausible. I'd say whether they were criminal acts is a question for a grand jury. I'm far less sure about the legalities of the situation than you seem to be.
Straw purchases of guns are a crime. The ATF has admitted to being involved in facilitating the straw purchase of guns by the Mexican drug cartels.

Transporting illegally purchased guns across the international border with Mexico is a crime. The ATF has admitted to allowing the Mexican drug cartel straw purchases to convey illegally purchased weapons across the international border with Mexico...after first denying they did so.


I have no reason to assume, and you have not demonstrated, that the DOJ is lying about the reasons for the operation. Good intentions and massive incompetence have been known to walk hand in hand.
They've yet to give a reason for allowing guns to walk across the border without even attempting to track them.

I would think a curious citizen would want to know why they would do that.

[ChumpDumper]

knowingly? that would surprise me.He fessed up to using the TRO screen name and plagiarism, for example.

[Winehole23]

Never shifts the goal posts. Never misrepresents, never begs a question. Is not biased. Never cops to a mistake.

dude is practically inhuman

[Winehole23]

He fessed up to using the TRO screen name and plagiarism, for example.ah

[Yonivore]

Yoni never admits anything, even with it staring him in the face.
What's to admit here?

If you can claim to have agreed with me too soon in saying the complicity was undeniable, I should be allowed a certain amount of imprecision -- particularly since I was debating with the mistaken understanding that we were in agreement over the complicity of the U. S. Government in this scandal.

[Winehole23]

The ATF has admitted to allowing the Mexican drug cartel straw purchases to convey illegally purchased weapons across the international border with Mexico...after first denying they did so.wonder why they would admit a crime, but there you have it.


QED

[Winehole23]

What's to admit here?

If you can claim to have agreed with me too soon in saying the complicity was undeniable, I should be allowed a certain amount of imprecision -- particularly since I was debating with the mistaken understanding that we were in agreement over the complicity of the U. S. Government in this scandal.oh it's my fault you misspoke. i see....

[Winehole23]

had i disagreed, you would have been more precise

[Yonivore]

had i disagreed, you would have been more precise
When you did, I was.

[Winehole23]

What's to admit here?you denied you ever said the US was complicit in the murder of 300 innocent Mexicans, when in fact that's exactly what you said. and now you blame me for saying it.

[Winehole23]

:lmao

[Yonivore]

So, who have you been badgering in my absence, Whinewhore?

[Winehole23]

When you did, I was.are you unable to say what you mean unless someone disagrees?

[Winehole23]

So, who have you been badgering in my absence, Whinewhore?RG and FuzzyLumpkins, lately.

[Winehole23]

cheguevara, some

[Yonivore]

you denied you ever said the US was complicit in the murder of 300 innocent Mexicans, when in fact that's exactly what you said. and now you blame me for saying it.
I didn't deny saying it. It's right there in my post. And, you agreed. I didn't give much thought, after that, to dissecting the scandal and identifying in which crimes they were complicit and which they weren't.

But, after you backpedaled, I thought it would be better to be precise about in what I believed the government to be complicit.

Fuck, you're tedious.

[Winehole23]

Parker2112

[Winehole23]

But, after you backpedaled, I thought it would be better to be precise about in what I believed the government to be complicit.you'd have allowed the imprecision to stand. telling.

[Winehole23]

Yes, I backpedaled. is there something wrong with that?

[Yonivore]

are you unable to say what you mean unless someone disagrees?
No, I just don't tend to dwell on points where I believe there to be agreement.

Broadly, the assertion that the U.S. is complicit in the murders suited my characterization they were to blame. I don't think I was trying to make a legal determination of complicity. But, you latched on and away we went.

I may make it my practice to be as precise as possible and repeat my original assertion in every post so you can't get off track.

In this case; I believe the U. S. Government bears a good portion of the responsibility for the murders of more than 300 Mexican nationals and at least one U. S. Law Enforcement Officer due to their actions in the Fast and Furious scandal.

I believe -- because they've admitted so -- the U. S. Government facilitated the straw purchases of thousands of weapons from gun stores, in America, by persons known to them to be associated with Mexican drug cartels.

I believe -- because they've admitted so -- the U. S. Government allowed those guns to be conveyed across the international border between Mexico and the United States by persons known to them to be associated with Mexican drug cartels.

And, I believe -- because there is documentary evidence -- the ATF proposed to use the murders, committed with the weapons they allowed into Mexico, as a pretext for instituting more gun regulations.

By the way, if you'd bother to look at the record -- particularly the latest document dump -- there is also evidence ATF was tracking the increase in murders with the ramping up of the gun walking.

Why?

[Yonivore]

you'd have allowed the imprecision to stand. telling.
No, I've clarified.

[Winehole23]

i copped my missstatement. will you cop yours?

[Winehole23]

No, I've clarified.Because I rectified my own misstatement, sez you. I wonder why others disagreeing didn't cause you to clarify...

[FuzzyLumpkins]

wonder why they would admit a crime, but there you have it.


QED

quantum electrodynamics?

[Yonivore]

i copped my missstatement. will you cop yours?
It was imprecise. I do not believe, nor do I contend, the United States Government was directly, legally, complicit in the murder of more than 300 Mexican nationals and at least one U. S. Law Enforcement Officer.

I believe the U. S. Government bears a good portion of the responsibility for the murders of more than 300 Mexican nationals and at least one U. S. Law Enforcement Officer due to their actions in the Fast and Furious scandal.

I believe -- because they've admitted so -- the U. S. Government facilitated the straw purchases of thousands of weapons from gun stores, in America, by persons known to them to be associated with Mexican drug cartels.

I believe -- because they've admitted so -- the U. S. Government allowed those guns to be conveyed across the international border between Mexico and the United States by persons known to them to be associated with Mexican drug cartels.

And, I believe -- because there is documentary evidence -- the ATF proposed to use the murders, committed with the weapons they allowed into Mexico, as a pretext for instituting more gun regulations.

I believe crimes have been committed by U. S. agents. I believe the U. S. Government -- up to and possibly including the Attorney General and President of the United States, condoned or even encouraged these crimes.

[Winehole23]

quod est demonstrandum, or something like that

[FuzzyLumpkins]

quod est demonstrandum, or something like that

I was thinking quote for Q but its latin. What is said is demonstration?

[Winehole23]

I do not believe, nor do I contend, the United States Government was directly, legally, complicit in the murder of more than 300 Mexican nationals and at least one U. S. Law Enforcement Officer.Thanks for the clarification. Someone might have misunderstood.

[Yonivore]

Because I rectified my own misstatement, sez you. I wonder why others disagreeing didn't cause you to clarify...
Because no one else was as pedantic as you about it.

[Winehole23]

I was thinking quote for Q but its latin. What is said is demonstration?http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=QED

[Winehole23]

Because no one else was as pedantic as you about it.that's my point, kinda. you had to be made to do it. all on your own you didn't care enough about whether you were saying what you "really meant."

[Winehole23]

are you indifferent to the accuracy and truth of your own comments?

[Yonivore]

that's my point, kinda. you had to be made to do it. all on your own you didn't care enough about whether you were saying what you "really meant."
Or, I guess I thought it was understood -- particularly by you, who had earlier agreed.

I only clarified my point when you, one who was in agreement, flipped your position.

And none of this is important or germane to the central story here.

[Winehole23]

I was fuzzy on the word complicity. I regret the misstatement.

[Yonivore]

are you indifferent to the accuracy and truth of your own comments?
Nope.

And, your suggestion that you were trying to force me to recant my statement of complicity with all your tedious argument is disingenuous, at best, when, during all that time, your statement the U. S. being complicit was undeniable, sat back there undisturbed.

If it was your aim to force me to admit I misstated the case shouldn't you have, perhaps, reversed your earlier agreement with my "misstatement," first?

[Winehole23]

not at all. i made a mistake. i glossed a word wrong. it happens.

[Winehole23]

glad you admitted yours, too. that's progress.

[ChumpDumper]

yoni is simply a liar who lies.

I don't understand why some posters on both sides are acting like they are running for office.

[Yonivore]

Now that we've got that out of the way, let's try this again.

Documents: ATF used "Fast and Furious" to make the case for gun regulations (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-57338546-10391695/documents-atf-used-fast-and-furious-to-make-the-case-for-gun-regulations/)


ATF officials didn't intend to publicly disclose their own role in letting Mexican cartels obtain the weapons, but emails show they discussed using the sales, including sales encouraged by ATF, to justify a new gun regulation called "Demand Letter 3". That would require some U.S. gun shops to report the sale of multiple rifles or "long guns." Demand Letter 3 was so named because it would be the third ATF program demanding gun dealers report tracing information.

On July 14, 2010 after ATF headquarters in Washington D.C. received an update on Fast and Furious, ATF Field Ops Assistant Director Mark Chait emailed Bill Newell, ATF's Phoenix Special Agent in Charge of Fast and Furious:

"Bill - can you see if these guns were all purchased from the same (licensed gun dealer) and at one time. We are looking at anecdotal cases to support a demand letter on long gun multiple sales. Thanks."
In another world, this writer would be receiving a Pulitzer and Fast and Furious would be seen for what it is, one of the worst scandals in American history.

This is a perfect example of how the media picks and chooses winners.

If this were not an administration to which they have obviously pledged some fealty, the drumbeat of impeachment and/or resignation would be deafening.

Over 300 murders -- one of an American law enforcement officer -- have been committed with guns the cartels obtained through Fast and Furious.

And, yet, Eric Holder is still employed and the Obama administration continues to act as if this were no big deal.

[ChumpDumper]

Oops.

[spursncowboys]

Obama sells guns to mexican cartels and then talks in mexico how we need more gun control to stop american sold guns getting into mexico. classic mcgruber.

[ChumpDumper]

What is your evidence Obama sold the guns?

[spursncowboys]

http://www.trumanlibrary.org/images/buckstopsherefrontsmall.jpg

[ChumpDumper]

http://www.trumanlibrary.org/images/buckstopsherefrontsmall.jpgIt sure didn't with the last president, and you cheered.

[spursncowboys]

I'm only seeing one cheerleader right now.

[ChumpDumper]

I'm only seeing one cheerleader right now.I never supported this particular policy.

And make no mistake, you're still cheering.

[ElNono]

No, I just don't tend to dwell on points where I believe there to be agreement.

Broadly, the assertion that the U.S. is complicit in the murders suited my characterization they were to blame. I don't think I was trying to make a legal determination of complicity. But, you latched on and away we went.

I may make it my practice to be as precise as possible and repeat my original assertion in every post so you can't get off track.

In this case; I believe the U. S. Government bears a good portion of the responsibility for the murders of more than 300 Mexican nationals and at least one U. S. Law Enforcement Officer due to their actions in the Fast and Furious scandal.

I believe -- because they've admitted so -- the U. S. Government facilitated the straw purchases of thousands of weapons from gun stores, in America, by persons known to them to be associated with Mexican drug cartels.

I believe -- because they've admitted so -- the U. S. Government allowed those guns to be conveyed across the international border between Mexico and the United States by persons known to them to be associated with Mexican drug cartels.

And, I believe -- because there is documentary evidence -- the ATF proposed to use the murders, committed with the weapons they allowed into Mexico, as a pretext for instituting more gun regulations.

By the way, if you'd bother to look at the record -- particularly the latest document dump -- there is also evidence ATF was tracking the increase in murders with the ramping up of the gun walking.

Why?


It was imprecise. I do not believe, nor do I contend, the United States Government was directly, legally, complicit in the murder of more than 300 Mexican nationals and at least one U. S. Law Enforcement Officer.

I believe the U. S. Government bears a good portion of the responsibility for the murders of more than 300 Mexican nationals and at least one U. S. Law Enforcement Officer due to their actions in the Fast and Furious scandal.

I believe -- because they've admitted so -- the U. S. Government facilitated the straw purchases of thousands of weapons from gun stores, in America, by persons known to them to be associated with Mexican drug cartels.

I believe -- because they've admitted so -- the U. S. Government allowed those guns to be conveyed across the international border between Mexico and the United States by persons known to them to be associated with Mexican drug cartels.

And, I believe -- because there is documentary evidence -- the ATF proposed to use the murders, committed with the weapons they allowed into Mexico, as a pretext for instituting more gun regulations.

I believe crimes have been committed by U. S. agents. I believe the U. S. Government -- up to and possibly including the Attorney General and President of the United States, condoned or even encouraged these crimes.


Fuck, you're tedious.

[ElNono]

quod est demonstrandum, or something like that

quod erat demonstrandum

[JohnnyMarzetti]

I believe yoniwhore has a hair up his ass over nothing as usual.

[The Reckoning]

i thought it was about fast cars and not guns?

[Wild Cobra]

RG and FuzzyLumpkins, lately.
Yes, I have been feeling left out a little.

[Winehole23]

You care? I'm touched!

:lol:toast

[boutons_deux]

Republicans' Phony Outrage at DEA Money Laundering Activities

The height of Republican hypocrisy is the phony outrage of Congressman Darryl Issa at the DEA's money laundering stings, particularly in Mexico. These stings are as old as the hills and well-publicized. (Issa's absurd letter to AG Eric Holder is here.) Even Fox News says he's missed the beat on this one.

The Justice Department and the State Department acknowledged the laundering this week. The DEA issued this statement earlier this week confirming it.

Why wouldn't they? DEA, the IRS and Customs (now ICE) have been engaging in undercover laundering of proceeds for drug traffickers at least since Ronald Reagan was President. Republicans crowed about the stings then. [More...]

The money laundering statute expressly provides for stings. From the U.S. Attorney's Manual:

Section 1956(a)(3) relates to undercover operations where the financial transaction involves property represented to be proceeds of specified unlawful activity. The proceeds in § 1956(a)(3) cases are not actually derived from a real crime; they are undercover funds supplied by the Government. The representation must be made by or authorized by a Federal officer with authority to investigate or prosecute money laundering violations. The representation may also be made by another at the direction of or approval of a Federal officer.

The money laundering statute also provides for extra-territorial jurisdiction (see 1956(b)(2).

Here are the guidelines from the IRS Manual, Section 9.5.5.2.1.3 (08-27-2007)"Title 18 USC §1956(a)(3), Sting Operations" and Section 9.4.8, Undercover Operations.

(On a related note, it was President Reagan, who in 1986, signed a "secret" National Security Decision Directive (#221) declaring that international drug trafficking was a matter of national security and authorizing the use of military personnel in foreign anti-drug campaigns.)

In 1980, there was Operation Swordfish, a drug and money laundering sting. As the DEA describes it:

The DEA set up a bogus money laundering corporation in suburban Miami Lakes that was called Dean International Investments, Inc. The DEA agents teamed up with a Cuban exile who had fallen on hard times and was willing to lure Colombian traffickers to the bogus bank. ...During the 18-month investigation, agents were able to gather enough evidence for a federal grand jury to indict 67 U.S. and Colombian citizens. At the conclusion of the operation, drug agents seized 100 kilos of cocaine, a quarter-million methaqualone pills, tons of marijuana, and $800,000 in cash, cars, land, and Miami bank accounts. Operation Swordfish was a significant attack on South Florida's flourishing drug trade.

http://www.talkleft.com/story/2011/12/7/12029/6361

[boutons_deux]

Hey, Yoni, here's a great history of the St Ronnie and his politicized CIA fueling the drug business

The Warning in Gary Webb's Death

But Webb's suicide on the evening of Dec. 9, 2004, was also a tragic end for one man whose livelihood and reputation were destroyed by a phalanx of major newspapers - the New York Times, the Washington Post and the Los Angeles Times - serving as protectors of a corrupt power structure rather than as sources of honest information.

In reviewing the story again this year, I was struck by how Webb's Contra-cocaine experience was, in many ways, a precursor to the subsequent tragedy of the Iraq War.

In the 1980s, the CIA's analytical division was already showing signs of politicization, especially regarding President Ronald Reagan's beloved Contras and their war against Nicaragua's Sandinista government - and the U.S. press corps was already bending to the propaganda pressures of a right-wing Republican administration.

Looking back at CIA cables from the early-to-mid-1980s, you can already see the bias dripping from the analytical reports. Any drug accusation against the leftist Sandinistas was accepted without skepticism and usually with strong exaggeration, while the opposite occurred with evidence of Contra cocaine smuggling; then there was endless quibbling and smearing of sources.

So, to put these reports in anything close to an accurate focus, you would need special lenses to correct for all the politicized distortions. Yet, the U.S. news media, which itself was under intense pressure not to appear "liberal," worsened the Reagan administration's fun-house reflection of reality and attacked any dissident journalist who wouldn't go along.

Thus, Americans heard a lot about how the evil Sandinistas were trying to "poison" America's youth with cocaine, although there was not a single interception of a drug shipment from Nicaragua during the Sandinista reign, except for one planeload of cocaine that the United States flew into and out of Nicaraguan in a clumsy "sting" operation.

On the other hand, substantial evidence of Contra-related cocaine shipments out of Costa Rica and Honduras was kept from the American people with Reagan's Justice Department and CIA intervening to head off investigations and thus prevent embarrassing disclosures. The chief role of the big newspapers in this upside-down world was to heap ridicule on anyone who told the truth.

During that time frame of the early-to-mid-1980s, the patterns were set for CIA analysts to advance their careers (by giving the president what he wanted) and mainstream journalists to protect theirs (by accepting propaganda). By 2002-2003, these patterns had become deeply engrained, leaving almost no one to protect the American people from a new round of falsehoods - aimed at Iraq.

http://readersupportednews.org/opinion2/276-74/8838-the-warning-in-gary-webbs-death

[Winehole23]

He fessed up to using the TRO screen name and plagiarism, for example.wants to get caught. how poignant.

[CosmicCowboy]

At the conclusion of the operation, drug agents seized 100 kilos of cocaine, a quarter-million methaqualone pills, tons of marijuana, and $800,000 in cash, cars, land, and Miami bank accounts.


ahhhhh....qualudes...

THAT was the good old days...

[Winehole23]

these are the good old days for somebody

[Winehole23]

i believe yoniwhore has a hair up his ass over nothing as usual.+1

[Yonivore]

+1
Nice you believe our government being involved in arming a ruthless cartel that then murdered 300+ Mexicans is "nothing."

[boutons_deux]

Yoni's ok with 5000 US military wasted in Iraq, but 300+ Mexicans, he wants to lynch the n!gga.

[Winehole23]

Nice you believe our government being involved in arming a ruthless cartel that then murdered 300+ Mexicans is "nothing."you having a hair up your ass is nothing. there's a subtle difference.

[Yonivore]

you having a hair up your ass is nothing. there's a subtle difference.
Except he said "over nothing."

[Winehole23]

semantics. more hairsplitting. :lol

[Winehole23]

like I said, there's a subtle difference

[Yonivore]

like I said, there's a subtle difference
You're right, there is a difference but, you +1'd Marzetti saying the 300+ deaths were nothing.

You're the one playing semantics and parsing what you've posted. Getting to be a habit.

[Winehole23]

tools of the trade, Yoni. You can't bullshit a bullshitter.

[Yonivore]

tools of the trade, Yoni. You can't bullshit a bullshitter.
I'm not the bullshitter. You lied. Simple as that.

You lied about me reversing my position and you lied about what Marzetti said because it fits your narrative. You're like the fucking Mainstream Media.

Do you ever tire of nipping at my heels?

[Winehole23]

I'm not the bullshitter. You lied. Simple as that.:lmao

[ElNono]

:cry

[ElNono]

I'm not the bullshitter. You lied. Simple as that.

http://www.blather.net/633768888725568260-irony%20copy.jpg

[Yonivore]

ATF Agent to Attorney General Holder: “you make me ashamed to be an American” (http://www.bob-owens.com/2011/12/atf-agent-to-attorney-general-holder-you-make-me-ashamed-to-be-an-american/)


An Open Letter to Attorney General Holder

Dear AG Holder:

From deep inside Mexico, thanks to streaming video, I was able to watch and listen to the entire House Judiciary Committee hearing. I’m a registered Independent – not Republican and not Democrat, so this is a non-partisan commentary. As I write this, my life, and the lives of my family members are more at risk becase of the reckless actions of you and your ATF buddies allowing, facilitating and even paying for firearms to be smuggled into Mexico for criminals.

Wow! You really made points with us when you refused to acknowledge you were under oath.

How many times did you answer “I don’t know”? You must be the most “know nothing” Attorney General in history.

Funny, you had the answers for all the other issues brought up during the hearing…..

You said those who created “Fast & Furious” will be held accountable, but you still don’t know who did it and no one will be fired? You have to consider their overall service to the department???? Do you consider their overall service for any other crime?

It’s been nearly a year since you assigned the investigation of Fast & Furious to the DOJ IG, although not in writing. Interesting. So, the DOJ is investigating itself? How long does it take for the IG to investigate? Is this the same IG that cooked up the false $16 muffin story? Is this the same IG that took (as gospel) ATF’s word that 90% of the guns recovered in Mexico and traced came from the U.S. – statistics later discredited – by ATF themselves?

We watched and listened as you and your Democrat sycophants on the Committee parroted the same tired scripted mantra praising you for advancing gun control and begging for more gun regulations and more ATF funding. The same old figures were quoted about how many guns were traced from Mexico. Did your figures include all the duplicate traces from Mexico? All the.22 rabbit rifles and farmer’s shotguns that Mexico traced? Did they include 100 year old guns used by Pancho Villa? Did you explain that the average age of those guns traced from Mexico is over 14 years? ATF calls that “time to crime”, but may have nothing to do with a crime.

Did you explain that as far back as 1992, and as recently as 2009, the Congressional Research Service warned against the use of statistics from ATF’s tracing system? Did you also not read their warning, “The ATF tracing system is an operational system designed to help law enforcement agencies identify the ownership path of individual firearms. It was not designed to collect statistics.”? Or did you simply ignore it?

Did you explain that the new multiple rifle regulation which you are so strongly supporting would not have stopped a single Fast & Furious gun from being smuggled to Mexico? And won’t stop any future smuggling? And the multiple rifle purchase report requirement is so overly-broad that it includes 50 to 100 year old rifles of interest only to collectors – which will now be reported as ‘crime guns’? What’s with that? Oh, yeah….. Those sales are now permanently ‘registered’ in ATF registration databases. Was this supposed to be “under the radar”, too?

Did you explain why your buddies at ATF are reporting personal information (name, address, height, weight, date of birth, drivers license number, etc.) of totally innocent American gun owners to corrupt Mexican cops – through eTrace? Enough information for ID theft? These gun owners may have disposed of the guns many years ago – but ATF still reports the original owner as a ‘suspect’ to Mexican cops. Thanks a lot. That makes me feel really good while I’m here in Mexico…..

Have you forgotten that in Mexico, you’re guilty until proven innocent?

So this is the “Most Transparent Administration” in history? Well, on that issue, that’s right. With your performance in front of the Committee, and your obstruction of justice and obfuscation of the issues, you were completely transparent. Everyone could see right through you. And you’re refusing to release any more documents? What could be more transparent than that? Wow!

Watching you in front of the Committee, for the first time in my life, you make me ashamed to be an American. Hell, Watergate was easier to understand….., and people didn’t die. How many people are going to be killed as a consequence of Fast & Furious?

How do I explain to my Mexican friends and associates why ATF has illegally armed Mexican criminal gangs? And no one has gone to jail, or been fired, or suspended, or even identified…..?

Isn’t that great for international relations…..

Mr. Attorney General, you will be held accountable – by the American People.

Sincerely,
(Name Withheld – still in Mexico)
That's one pissed off ATF Agent

[ChumpDumper]

wow

withheld