The Double-Edged Sword of Corporate Knowledge

[timvp]

Talk to Pop for any length of time about the basketball team he coaches and he's sure to utter his favorite buzz-phrase: corporate knowledge. Why are the Spurs often able to do more with less? Corporate knowledge. What allows for continued excellence? Corporate knowledge. Why is Acquisition X struggling? Corporate knowledge, or lack thereof, he'll tell you.

Heading into what promises to be a hectic regular season preceded by a hurried free agency period, corporate knowledge will be as valuable as ever. Asking a group of players to conjure up championship-level cohesion without a full training camp and without many in-season practice opportunities is requesting the impossible.

So, the Spurs should sit tight and give it another go with the same crew, right? Being conservative, and thus being able to milk the team's corporate knowledge, is the correct move, right?

No.

Corporate knowledge has undoubtedly aided the Spurs over the years. However, there comes a point when corporate knowledge leads to corporate decay.

Tim Duncan, Manu Ginobili and Tony Parker have reached the mountain top multiple times; they know what is required to undertake such a journey. And each day at training camp, the Big Three will look around and know in their heart of hearts that the team, as currently constructed, has no realistic hope. Corporate knowledge, in this case, unveils the unfortunate truth.

The Big Three knows they were two years younger, armed with a similar supporting cast and swept away by the Phoenix Suns. The Big Three knows they have a worse supporting cast on paper than last year's squad that was manhandled in the first round by an eighth seed.

Being the good soldiers they are, Duncan, Ginobili and Parker have smiled into the cameras and professed their belief. Do you think the Spurs can win it all? "Of course," they answer, "we think that every year."

But they know. You can hear it in their voices. You can see it in their body language. Off the record, they'll admit the grim truth.

"We will always have a good team," Parker told a French newspaper in a report he thought would never make its way to South Texas, "but we can no longer say that we’re playing for a championship."

Typically, a player on a contender waiving a white flag would be cause for concern -- if not a trade -- but there's one problem: Parker is just speaking the truth.

If the Spurs come back with the same team, they will be forced to utilize last season's formula. The offense will be a guard-heavy attack relying on three-pointers, while the defense will use ball pressure and quick rotations in hopes of remaining average.

Last year, that formula was successful for a couple of months … before the team ran out of gas. In a condensed season, fuel will burn even faster. The flaws of the formula will be exposed even quicker.

The answer isn't to change the formula. As the roster is assembled, the Spurs have no choice but to use a gimmicky approach to win games. It's easy to suggest that San Antonio needs to revert to a defense-first, inside-out philosophy, however the necessary pieces simply aren't on the roster.

The Big Three has done their part. They've brought championships. Even today, in the face of the unfortunate truth brought upon by corporate knowledge, they will go the extra mile to give hope to Spurs fans. Now it's time for the front office and ownership to do their part and add reinforcements. Add true hope.

A complete overhaul isn't necessary. In fact, there are many avenues to hope. Add an ace perimeter defender to ease the defensive burden on the Big Three and give hope that the defense-first approach can be reborn. Or skin the same cat by adding a shotblocker to the interior. Another alternative would be adding a low-post presence in hopes of rekindling the inside-out magic of past championship runs.

Do something. Give the Big Three a fighting chance. They've more than earned it over the years.

Do nothing and Ginobili and Parker will play this season with one eye on the 2012 Olympic Games. Do nothing and Duncan may very well consider greener, more proactive pastures at the end of the season. Do nothing and the Spurs might as well blow things up and rebuild.

That's the corporate reality and there's no unlearning that knowledge.

[slick'81]

been that way for a while tbh

[Anonymous Cowherd]

"In fact, there are many avenues to hope. Add an ace perimeter defender to ease the defensive burden on the Big Three and give hope that the defense-first approach can be reborn. Or skin the same cat by adding a shotblocker to the interior. Another alternative would be adding a low-post presence in hopes of rekindling the inside-out magic of past championship runs."

Could you expand upon this part please?

I agree with the rest but it's so negative :(

[slick'81]

i also worry some if after this season will duncan chase one last ring?!?

[Mr. Body]

Good, thoughtful post, but the writing is on the wall. This team can't arrest its inexorable decline.

[baseline bum]

Do nothing and the Spurs might as well blow things up and rebuild.

Wow, you're coming around to my side LJ? :wow

I fully agree; either do something major for the defense or blow it up right now. There can be no middle ground.

[MmP]

All you wrote is true, the question is: Is there really hope with a core of 32+ age?

I mean in order to become competitive the spurs must bring quality big man, all I can think of is Kaman. And a another strong SF, yet smart: all I can think of is Nocioni/Bell.

[lmbebo]

Feels like they don't care. Standing pat. If anything, we are even weaker without McDyess.

Might as well blow up the team. Trade Duncan, Ginobli and/or Parker.

Going into this season without addressing the glaring holes in the roster is foolish. If that is the approach the front office is going to take, then might as well start the rebuilding process now. They are going to waste this year.

[Obstructed_View]

Seems like every title team required a Jaren Jackson or a Manu Ginobili or a Speedy Claxton or someone who wasn't exactly a corporate knowledge guy to step up.

There's another Pop buzz phrase that's been missing the last few years: Appropriate fear.

[Anonymous Cowherd]

Might as well blow up the team. Trade Duncan, Ginobli and/or Parker.

Going into this season without addressing the glaring holes in the roster is foolish. If that is the approach the front office is going to take, then might as well start the rebuilding process now. They are going to waste this year.

Why? I'd sure as hell rather watch Timmy and Manu not win a ring, than watch a bunch of people I don't care about not win a ring.

[Fireball]

Why? I'd sure as hell like to watch Timmy and Manu not win a ring, than watch a bunch of people I don't care about not win a ring.

Nice thought :toast

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Did you intentionally not talk about Kawhi and Tiago?

[Seventyniner]

Gary Neal shits all over the "corporate knowledge" schtick.

[lmbebo]

Watch? sure.

I'd like for them to be able to compete as well. Right now they are sending them out there with an unloaded gun.

If we are forced to stick with RJ, thats ok.

But they can't continue to go with current group of bigs that we have. We were demolished last year. We've been weak up front for a few years now. It only gets worse as Timmy continues to slow down.

[weebo]

Spurs are just going to have to luck into another Timmy or DRob. Why? Its simple. No one wants to play in SA. Its like having to play in Milwaukee or Minnesota.

[tim_duncan_fan]

Can't believe we are standing pat.

It hurts my soul.

Can we not get something for Parker?

Coming back with the same team makes no sense any way you look at it.

[tmtcsc]

The OP is way too pessimistic. No mention of Neal being a player who assimilated nicely. Yes, they need to improve inside but there is no need to blow this team up. They should, however, be open to moving their best asset in Parker. I'm not sure that counts as blowing up the team.

I also expect Tiago to be improved. RJ sucked less last year than the year before so maybe he can play a little better this year and just suck. Who am I kidding, he needs to go.

[baseline bum]

Seems like every title team required a Jaren Jackson or a Manu Ginobili or a Speedy Claxton or someone who wasn't exactly a corporate knowledge guy to step up.

There's another Pop buzz phrase that's been missing the last few years: Appropriate fear.

They had that in Neal. What they didn't have which was way more crucial and on all title teams was
(1) An MVP-level Tim Duncan
(2) An all-time great defensive player (DRob, Bowen).

[Russ]

Talk to Pop for any length of time about the basketball team he coaches and he's sure to utter his favorite buzz-phrase: corporate knowledge. Why are the Spurs often able to do more with less? Corporate knowledge. What allows for continued excellence? Corporate knowledge. Why is Acquisition X struggling? Corporate knowledge, or lack thereof, he'll tell you.

Heading into what promises to be a hectic regular season preceded by a hurried free agency period, corporate knowledge will be as valuable as ever. Asking a group of players to conjure up championship-level cohesion without a full training camp and without many in-season practice opportunities is requesting the impossible.

So, the Spurs should sit tight and give it another go with the same crew, right? Being conservative, and thus being able to milk the team's corporate knowledge, is the correct move, right?

No.

Corporate knowledge has undoubtedly aided the Spurs over the years. However, there comes a point when corporate knowledge leads to corporate decay.

Tim Duncan, Manu Ginobili and Tony Parker have reached the mountain top multiple times; they know what is required to undertake such a journey. And each day at training camp, the Big Three will look around and know in their heart of hearts that the team, as currently constructed, has no realistic hope. Corporate knowledge, in this case, unveils the unfortunate truth.

The Big Three knows they were two years younger, armed with a similar supporting cast and swept away by the Phoenix Suns. The Big Three knows they have a worse supporting cast on paper than last year's squad that was manhandled in the first round by an eighth seed.

Being the good soldiers they are, Duncan, Ginobili and Parker have smiled into the cameras and professed their belief. Do you think the Spurs can win it all? "Of course," they answer, "we think that every year."

But they know. You can hear it in their voices. You can see it in their body language. Off the record, they'll admit the grim truth.

"We will always have a good team," Parker told a French newspaper in a report he thought would never make its way to South Texas, "but we can no longer say that we’re playing for a championship."

Typically, a player on a contender waiving a white flag would be cause for concern -- if not a trade -- but there's one problem: Parker is just speaking the truth.

If the Spurs come back with the same team, they will be forced to utilize last season's formula. The offense will be a guard-heavy attack relying on three-pointers, while the defense will use ball pressure and quick rotations in hopes of remaining average.

Last year, that formula was successful for a couple of months … before the team ran out of gas. In a condensed season, fuel will burn even faster. The flaws of the formula will be exposed even quicker.

The answer isn't to change the formula. As the roster is assembled, the Spurs have no choice but to use a gimmicky approach to win games. It's easy to suggest that San Antonio needs to revert to a defense-first, inside-out philosophy, however the necessary pieces simply aren't on the roster.

The Big Three has done their part. They've brought championships. Even today, in the face of the unfortunate truth brought upon by corporate knowledge, they will go the extra mile to give hope to Spurs fans. Now it's time for the front office and ownership to do their part and add reinforcements. Add true hope.

A complete overhaul isn't necessary. In fact, there are many avenues to hope. Add an ace perimeter defender to ease the defensive burden on the Big Three and give hope that the defense-first approach can be reborn. Or skin the same cat by adding a shotblocker to the interior. Another alternative would be adding a low-post presence in hopes of rekindling the inside-out magic of past championship runs.

Do something. Give the Big Three a fighting chance. They've more than earned it over the years.

Do nothing and Ginobili and Parker will play this season with one eye on the 2012 Olympic Games. Do nothing and Duncan may very well consider greener, more proactive pastures at the end of the season. Do nothing and the Spurs might as well blow things up and rebuild.

That's the corporate reality and there's no unlearning that knowledge.

Great composition (but I tend to disagree to some extent).


The Big Three knows they have a worse supporting cast on paper than last year's squad that was manhandled in the first round by an eighth seed.

I'm not so sure. I think Leonard has a chance to be that defensive revelation we all crave (though due his lack of "corporate knowledge" that that may be thwarted).

Splitter's lack of corporate knowldge cost him time that could have readied him (and the Spurs) for Memphis' interior onslaught. Others on the roster had more corporate knowledge (and redder hair) but less ability to positively affect outcomes when it was all on the line.

Perhaps Splitter and Leonard will be unleashed this year. And maybe this Anderson kid can play and stay healthy. If so, the roster improves just by Pop playing his more talented contributors.

I don't think that the Spurs striking out on high profile FAs is a big problem. They generally can't play D.

I do think that Pop needs to go back to a D first approach and I think he is very close to having the roster to do it.

Your piece seems to make two points. 1) That the corporate knowledge mantra may actually impede the Spurs and 2) that the Spurs don't have the roster to compete.

I agree with 1 but not 2.

They are just a competent big away if Pop will make a prudent move or two and then let his athletes perform.

(But then again I'm basically a homer.)

[The Truth #6]

Explosion or a radioactive RJ-fueled slow implosion.

If they can't get rid of RJ and the season starts to spiral downward, then I think at the trade deadline they should consider blowing it up. And by blowing it up, you would have to trade Duncan and the other 2. I don't see how you can do it another way.

How can you trade Tony and Manu and then expect Tim to stand around while the team goes for the lottery? I think it's all or none, and that may be why the FO is taking their time/drinking away their sorrows.

My proposal: given that great team defense will probably not be possible, Pop really needs to commit to a style and go with it. Focusing on D makes sense on paper but in reality, as Timvp states, they don't have the people or the talent to be a great defensive team. So, I agree that they should stick with their guard/jump shooting approach.

In fact, they should do everything they did last year starting out...except this time actually stick to it. Pop, ever the underconfident overthinker, blinked and tried to mix defense with our running offense and we ended up with mud.

This team he needs to push offense all the way. Why not? At least make it fun for fans. Get the most out of RJ if he's still on the team. Let Tony get out on the break. Let Manu play loose. Let Blair play loose. Let Leonard make mistakes.

And after the fans have been thrilled and bamboozled a bit, when the trade deadline comes around, THEN strongly consider trading the Big 3. Teams will be licking their chops to try and steal a championship and could possibly be eager to trade.

I'm not saying it will happen, but there could be a great opportunity to get young talent and draft picks. And then next year amnesty RJ and move on.

Trading the Big 3 seems horrible, but I'd actually rather see them try to win a title somewhere else then watch the Spurs implode.

[SenorSpur]

Fantastic post! :tu

It crystallizes the concerns of many on this board, who, like me, shudder at the thought of rolling out virtually the same squad as last year. A squad that is rife with holes at the PF/C position, and, to a lesser extent, at the SF position - especially so long as RJ is on the roster and starting in front of Leonard.

Denial is not just a river in Egypt. Anyone who has watched this team get absolutely man-handled, in the playoffs, the past couple of years is in serious denial if they believe this team can simply "saddle up" the same squad and make another run.

Corporate knowledge is an overused and sometimes overrated term in this organization. It is an extraordinarily tangible benefit to a team that has championship-level components, cohesive team play and one that executes like a well-oiled machine. However, corporate knowledge without tangible talent, on a roster full of holes, is just an empty tenet of a once-proud organization.

[Mel_13]

Fantastic post! :tu

It crystallizes the concerns of many on this board, who, like me, shudder at the thought of rolling out virtually the same squad as last year. A squad that is rife with holes at the PF/C position, and, to a lesser extent, at the SF position - especially so long as RJ is on the roster and starting in front of Leonard.

Denial is not just a river in Egypt. Anyone who has watched this team get absolutely man-handled, in the playoffs, the past couple of years is in serious denial if they believe this team can simply "saddle up" the same squad and make another run.

Corporate knowledge is an overused and sometimes overrated term in this organization. It is an extraordinarily tangible benefit to a team that has championship-level components, cohesive team play and one that executes like a well-oiled machine. However, corporate knowledge without tangible talent, on a roster full of holes, is just an empty tenet of a once-proud organization.

So should they trade Tony, Manu or both?

[timvp]

"In fact, there are many avenues to hope. Add an ace perimeter defender to ease the defensive burden on the Big Three and give hope that the defense-first approach can be reborn. Or skin the same cat by adding a shotblocker to the interior. Another alternative would be adding a low-post presence in hopes of rekindling the inside-out magic of past championship runs."

Could you expand upon this part please?

Basically, I don't think there is any one specific hole the Spurs have to fill to give themselves a shot. The Spurs could add a defensive swingman, a shotblocking bigman or a scoring bigman and that will change things enough to allow the possibility of a championship run. Staying the same doesn't even give the team a chance, which is a shame.


I agree with the rest but it's so negative :(

I actually was relatively upbeat after last season because I thought that with a few alterations, the Big Three looked capable of possibly giving it another go. But that was assuming that the Spurs would do something more than sign the corpse of TJ Ford.

Hopefully I'm mistaking patience for passiveness, but I guess we'll see.

[SenorSpur]

So should they trade Tony, Manu or both?

I sincerely doubt they could get much for Manu. Parker clearly has the best trade value. I'm not suggesting that they pull the trigger on that trade now. However, an immediate upgrade at the PF/C position is desparately needed. If the FO cannot upgrade this position prior to the start of the season, with the limited assets they have, then I believe you have to look at perhaps moving TP by the trade deadline. Otherwise, a mediocre season awaits, along with a long an eminent rebuilding process at season's end. Trading TP in March will only help jumpstart such a rebuilding effort.

[slick'81]

get a legit big to defend and play next to timmy-splitter check

young long sf who can defend and play a little four-cowhigh leonard check

exp vet to play pg and spell tp9 a few minutes game- tj ford check


maybe were not that far off (gotta be optimistic sometime)

[Mel_13]

I sincerely doubt they could get much for Manu. Parker clearly has the best trade value. I'm not suggesting that they pull the trigger on that trade now. However, an immediate upgrade at the PF/C position is desparately needed. If the FO cannot upgrade this position prior to the start of the season, with the limited assets they have, then I believe you have to look at perhaps moving TP by the trade deadline. Otherwise, a mediocre season awaits, along with a long an eminent rebuilding process at season's end. Trading TP in March will only help jumpstart such a rebuilding effort.

I agree with this. Tony is their best asset.

[timvp]

i also worry some if after this season will duncan chase one last ring?!?That's a sub-plot that I think isn't being mentioned enough. Duncan likes the Spurs and San Antonio.

But Duncan loves winning.


Wow, you're coming around to my side LJ? :wow

I fully agree; either do something major for the defense or blow it up right now. There can be no middle ground.

:lol Yeah, the Spurs are making me creep toward the rebuild-now way of thinking.

Previously, my stance was that as long as you have the Big Three and surround them with somewhat adequate talent, it'd be a mistake to throw that away and rebuild. It's rare that a small market franchise can put together a trio as talented as TD, Manu and TP -- even at this stage of their careers. To blow up the Big Three when there is still a chance at a championship, even if we are talking about a less than 10% chance, would be a mistake and it would be underestimating just how difficult it is for a San Antonio franchise to get as close as they are.

But if the front office and ownership group aren't going to do enough to even surround the Big Three with adequate talent, it doesn't make sense to just go through the motions. Even though the franchise can still make money by selling memories, it's unfair to the Big Three and it makes it more difficult to rebuild going forward.

Don't get me wrong, I'll still enjoy the hell out of watching the Big Three this year no matter what but I can't support the front office's motives since it would basically just be a money grab.

[jjktkk]

Most of us fans know what the Spurs need, but like others have mentioned, tp is the only trade piece that could give the team that interior piece to pair alongside Duncan.

[Gregzilla]

That's a sub-plot that I think isn't being mentioned enough. Duncan likes the Spurs and San Antonio.

But Duncan loves winning.



:lol Yeah, the Spurs are making me creep toward the rebuild-now way of thinking.

Previously, my stance was that as long as you have the Big Three and surround them with somewhat adequate talent, it'd be a mistake to throw that away and rebuild. It's rare that a small market franchise can put together a trio as talented as TD, Manu and TP -- even at this stage of their careers. To blow up the Big Three when there is still a chance at a championship, even if we are talking about a less than 10% chance, would be a mistake and it would be underestimating just how difficult it is for a San Antonio franchise to get as close as they are.

But if the front office and ownership group aren't going to do enough to even surround the Big Three with adequate talent, it doesn't make sense to just go through the motions. Even though the franchise can still make money by selling memories, it's unfair to the Big Three and it makes it more difficult to rebuild going forward.

Don't get me wrong, I'll still enjoy the hell out of watching the Big Three this year no matter what but I can't support the front office's motives since it would basically just be a money grab.


Good post but you do know that no one outside of San Antonio calls them the Big 3 anymore right?? Actually i think only people on spurstalk.com call them the Big 3 still.....them and Sean Elliott

[timvp]

Why? I'd sure as hell rather watch Timmy and Manu not win a ring, than watch a bunch of people I don't care about not win a ring.That's what the mindset the franchise is banking on. They know Spurs fans will come watch as long as TD and Manu are playing.

But to screw over the Big Three just to sell tickets is unfair to the trio and doesn't make sense rebuilding wise. It's a loss all the way around other than for nostalgia-sake and Holt's pockets. That shouldn't be enough.


The OP is way too pessimistic.


Yes, they need to improve inside but there is no need to blow this team up.

It can't be that pessimistic when I agree that blowing up the team isn't necessary. I only advocate blowing up the team if the front office is just going to go forward as-is.

[lefty]

Duncan to Lakers

Do it RC

[Mel_13]

That's a sub-plot that I think isn't being mentioned enough. Duncan likes the Spurs and San Antonio.

But Duncan loves winning.


If Tim wants to chase a title somewhere else, I'd wish him the best of luck. If he wants out before his contract is up, the Spurs should accommodate him.

[DesignatedT]

I just refuse to think the Spurs are really sold on standing pat this season. Trading Hill for Kawhi doesn't really help the "win now" notion and if I remember correctly at the end of last season, RC sounded like he knew moves had to be made.

Saying that, If indeed the guys the Spurs were targeting in FA are already gone and signed with someone else, I would still expect them to continue to try and make a move as the season plays on. I don't see any good in signing a guy they don't really want if it could limit any potential moves/trades after the season begins.

Also, where the fuck is Dice and what is going on with this guy? This might be able to help a lot of questions people are having about this season.

[timvp]

Did you intentionally not talk about Kawhi and Tiago?


Perhaps Splitter and Leonard will be unleashed this year.

Even in the best case scenario, I don't think Leonard can be a championship-caliber difference-maker offensively. Asking that out of a non-lottery pick is asking something that hasn't been accomplished by any player in NBA history that I know of. Leonard no doubt has the tools to be a great defender down the road but in the short term, he's going to have a lot of growing pains. If he's even an average NBA defender his rookie year as a 20-year-old in Pop's system, that's a great sign. Asking for much more than that is basically asking for the impossible.

I see Leonard's overall energy and activity as his greatest asset; not an ability to be a shutdown defender. To reach that level, it takes time. Leonard isn't going to be able to go from a guy who spent most of his time defending the paint in college to a guy who is going to step into the NBA and be a lockdown three. Unfortunately.

As for Splitter, I see him much more as a really good system defender. He seems like he will be able to move his feet, get in the right positions and be a plus on that end of the court. But he's not a shotblocker and it doesn't look like he can be a mistake-erasing a la Tyson Chandler. Splitter could and should be very valuable on the defensive end but even if Pop gives him minutes, I highly doubt he's enough to give the Spurs a chance of being a top 5 defensive team.

[tmtcsc]

Hey TIMVP, I re-read the post. I missed the "doesn't require total overhaul" line. My bad.

[therealtruth]

@Russ

I don't think you're just being a homer. The Spurs attack last year was all offense and they were #1 for most of the season. If they play Splitter, Anderson, and Leonard they can improve defensively. Also it seems Pop is going to make defense a bigger point of emphasis. Those 3 guys are young enough to play good defense and they can push the vets. Making the offense slightly more varied and improving the defense will put them in good shape.

[ogait]

Corporate knowledge imo was always blown way out of proportion by Spurs fans. As if it is that much different from any other team. The more a group of guys play together the better potentially are the results.
It just was never the main reason why Spurs won.
At this point is more of an excuse for not rolling the dice than any kind of real belief by the Spurs FO or coaching staff.

[therealtruth]

Even in the best case scenario, I don't think Leonard can be a championship-caliber difference-maker offensively. Asking that out of a non-lottery pick is asking something that hasn't been accomplished by any player in NBA history that I know of. Leonard no doubt has the tools to be a great defender down the road but in the short term, he's going to have a lot of growing pains. If he's even an average NBA defender his rookie year as a 20-year-old in Pop's system, that's a great sign. Asking for much more than that is basically asking for the impossible.

I see Leonard's overall energy and activity as his greatest asset; not an ability to be a shutdown defender. To reach that level, it takes time. Leonard isn't going to be able to go from a guy who spent most of his time defending the paint in college to a guy who is going to step into the NBA and be a lockdown three. Unfortunately.

As for Splitter, I see him much more as a really good system defender. He seems like he will be able to move his feet, get in the right positions and be a plus on that end of the court. But he's not a shotblocker and it doesn't look like he can be a mistake-erasing a la Tyson Chandler. Splitter could and should be very valuable on the defensive end but even if Pop gives him minutes, I highly doubt he's enough to give the Spurs a chance of being a top 5 defensive team.

Chandler didn't block that many shots last year. Just over 1 a game. But he moved his feet and contested/altered shots. I think Splitter can do the same. Defense isn't just about blocking shots but forcing the miss and rebounding.

[Obstructed_View]

Splitter is also really good at getting the other team's bigs in foul trouble. Hard for a guy to hurt you from the bench.

[timvp]

Chandler didn't block that many shots last year. Just over 1 a game. Yeah, that's why I put shotblockers and Chandler in two separate categories.


But he moved his feet and contested/altered shots. I think Splitter can do the same. Defense isn't just about blocking shots but forcing the miss and rebounding.Chandler has stopped going for blocks but has become a much better defender. He uses his length to intimidate and alter shots.

I've never seen Splitter play a similar role. He's much more of a move-your-feet-and-try-to-flop defender like Oberto was. Perhaps the Spurs could try to change his stripes but that'd be asking a lot.

[Canibspur]

Spurs are just going to have to luck into another Timmy or DRob. Why? Its simple. No one wants to play in SA. Its like having to play in Milwaukee or Minnesota.

Aint that the fucking truth? Damn shame too.

[ElNono]

Completely agree, LJ. Good read. The gimmicky fast-ball will win you RS games, but this team can't handle the grind of the playoffs. That's the reality right now.

[therealtruth]

Yeah, that's why I put shotblockers and Chandler in two separate categories.

Chandler has stopped going for blocks but has become a much better defender. He uses his length to intimidate and alter shots.

I've never seen Splitter play a similar role. He's much more of a move-your-feet-and-try-to-flop defender like Oberto was. Perhaps the Spurs could try to change his stripes but that'd be asking a lot.

Good points. There's a good article on Yahoo (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/The-Knicks-will-sign-Tyson-Chandler-but-at-what?urn=nba-wp11598) about Chandler. He does alot of good things defensively that don't always show up in the stats. He chases the guards, stops penetration, and keeps attached to his man. Also like Splitter he's good at drawing fouls. I think in the Finals he drew the most fouls. Splitter has to be more judicious in trying to draw charges. I am sure he will figure out that stuff as he plays more.

[ElNono]

Chandler has stopped going for blocks but has become a much better defender. He uses his length to intimidate and alter shots.

I've never seen Splitter play a similar role. He's much more of a move-your-feet-and-try-to-flop defender like Oberto was. Perhaps the Spurs could try to change his stripes but that'd be asking a lot.

Plus Splitter has yet to earn his stripes with the refs. Something that takes time. He's going to probably get called for a lot of fouls on what he thinks are legitimate blocks. It takes time for the league to get to know you. That's why I wanted him to get more minutes and burn that bridge last season.

[therealtruth]

Completely agree, LJ. Good read. The gimmicky fast-ball will win you RS games, but this team can't handle the grind of the playoffs. That's the reality right now.

The Spurs outran the Suns in '05 in the playoffs. The Lakers did the same thing two years ago against the Suns. There's nothing wrong with running in the playoffs. You just need to be able to get stops when it matters.

The Spurs just have to impose their will. A grind it out team is not going to like a fast game. That's part of the reason the Thunder were able to beat the Grizzlies. The Grizzlies couldn't keep up and were forced into starting OJ Mayo.

[ElNono]

The Spurs outran the Suns in '05 in the playoffs. The Lakers did the same thing two years ago against the Suns. There's nothing wrong with running in the playoffs. You just need to be able to get stops when it matters.

The Spurs just have to impose their will. A grind it out team is not going to like a fast game. That's part of the reason the Thunder were able to beat the Grizzlies. The Grizzlies couldn't keep up and were forced into starting OJ Mayo.

It's about personnel and matchups. Griz presented a grind it out game, and out gimmicky run couldn't get it done. The run and gun Suns always had great talent and played run and gun all season long, but couldn't put up enough points against good defensive teams.

Defense will trump offense everytime. You could play run and gun in the playoffs, you're just not going to win a ship with it.

What was the last running team winning a ship? Showtime Lakers?

[therealtruth]

It's about personnel and matchups. Griz presented a grind it out game, and out gimmicky run couldn't get it done. The run and gun Suns always had great talent and played run and gun all season long, but couldn't put up enough points against good defensive teams.

Defense will trump offense everytime. You could play run and gun in the playoffs, you're just not going to win a ship with it.

What was the last running team winning a ship? Showtime Lakers?

The problem is by the end of the year we had stopped running as much and I think that continued into the Grizzlies series. If our offense had been as good as it had been earlier in the year we could have probably have won against the Grizz despite our bad defense.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Even in the best case scenario, I don't think Leonard can be a championship-caliber difference-maker offensively. Asking that out of a non-lottery pick is asking something that hasn't been accomplished by any player in NBA history that I know of. Leonard no doubt has the tools to be a great defender down the road but in the short term, he's going to have a lot of growing pains. If he's even an average NBA defender his rookie year as a 20-year-old in Pop's system, that's a great sign. Asking for much more than that is basically asking for the impossible.

I see Leonard's overall energy and activity as his greatest asset; not an ability to be a shutdown defender. To reach that level, it takes time. Leonard isn't going to be able to go from a guy who spent most of his time defending the paint in college to a guy who is going to step into the NBA and be a lockdown three. Unfortunately.

As for Splitter, I see him much more as a really good system defender. He seems like he will be able to move his feet, get in the right positions and be a plus on that end of the court. But he's not a shotblocker and it doesn't look like he can be a mistake-erasing a la Tyson Chandler. Splitter could and should be very valuable on the defensive end but even if Pop gives him minutes, I highly doubt he's enough to give the Spurs a chance of being a top 5 defensive team.

If he can make rotations and play good post defense then that is already a leg up on the play of our bigs last year. Guys cutting to the basket seemed to have a less easy time versus the alternative however the sample size is very small.

The point I am making is that they havent just sat pat. Whether or not he can score they did make a significant move in trading Hill for him. He adds length and youth to the position and if anyone has the possibility of being an elite NBA defender, Kawhi has that chance.

i just found it odd that in your commentary of our moves and rotation players that you just left them out. We need our recently drafted guys like Splitter, Anderson and Leonard to step up. If they can then we can be very competitive. If not then we might be lottery bound.

[benefactor]

The problem is by the end of the year we had stopped running as much and I think that continued into the Grizzlies series. If our offense had been as good as it had been earlier in the year we could have probably have won against the Grizz despite our bad defense.
Nope. Memphis had figured out how to defend the Spurs offense. The Spurs ran more earlier in the year but they still won a lot of games with shooting. Memphis was closing out hard on shooters and daring the Spurs to beat them on the inside.

[ElNono]

The problem is by the end of the year we had stopped running as much and I think that continued into the Grizzlies series. If our offense had been as good as it had been earlier in the year we could have probably have won against the Grizz despite our bad defense.

We can keep rehashing this, but it's really a waste of time... games eventually boil down the the same: needing a stop at a key moments.

The Spurs used to be a defensive team that could get those on demand. Right now, we have too many identifiable weak spots, and so no longer do. That isn't changing unless we change the personnel.

[loveforthegame]

What a depressing read. All true of course. :depressed

[ElNono]

It's depressing from a "contender" aspect. But it will still be enjoyable to watch the big 3. Plus, this is going to be an odd season. I suspect teams like the Lakers with their new coach or even Dallas, integrating new key players, will struggle a bit here and there. The Spurs have their own concerns because of aging.

So if something weird could happen, this is probably the season for it to happen.

[tim_duncan_fan]

The elephant in the Spurstalk room is that Splitter is soft and won't make much of a difference.

The pygmy elephant is that Kawhi is a rookie and probably won't be much of a difference even if he gets around Pop's rookie-phobia.

We need to lose for the lottery (blow it up) or make moves.

Sitting still is an affront to us fans and to Tim.

We don't need to make the first if we're not likely to make the finals.

C'mon Pop, RC, Holt...

If nothing else, get RJ out of here, replacement or not.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Wasn't it Marcus Bryant who posted that we shoulda tanked a few years ago? Or was it Ghost Writer?

We might as well blow it up (except duncan) and just get some draft picks

[Cane]

Corporate knowledge? Unfortunately thats been downsized, much like the Spurs defense has in the past few years. The Spurs Big 3 don't have the legs to play like an elite defensive team and have been adopting a more Phoenix Suns style of play than what we're accustomed to.

The big problems with the Spurs, other than age/injuries, are in the bigs, just like it has been since D-Rob retired. Hopefully Holt and Co. actually can turn things around and give Duncan some legit help. But if Duncan and Ginobili get injured before the playoffs even start like this past season, then its game over man, game over

[DMC]

If the Spurs' goal (true goal of the owners and front office) is to win a championship, blowing it up right now would be the best way.

If it's to remain profitable and milk every penny they can from Tim's remaining time with the team, they have to go through the motions of a team who thinks they can win a championship. A lot of ticket buying fans don't know the difference.

[Ice009]

“There’s got to be enough size there,” Popovich said. “We need a (big man) that can guard. If you get one that can guard, the more that guys spread the floor, the better off you are.”

I read this quote today, not sure if it's current or not, but it looks like Pop has the right idea and they are definitely looking for a big man that can defend.

[Gregzilla]

“There’s got to be enough size there,” Popovich said. “We need a (big man) that can guard. If you get one that can guard, the more that guys spread the floor, the better off you are.”

I read this quote today, not sure if it's current or not, but it looks like Pop has the right idea and they are definitely looking for a big man that can defend.

if that quote is true...that sounds very promising.

[timvp]

“There’s got to be enough size there,” Popovich said. “We need a (big man) that can guard. If you get one that can guard, the more that guys spread the floor, the better off you are.”

I read this quote today, not sure if it's current or not, but it looks like Pop has the right idea and they are definitely looking for a big man that can defend.

Looks like that quote was from back in May.

[Ice009]

I thought it might be old. CRAP.

[SequSpur]

The Spurs could've done better the last few years but fucking Pop keeps playing Matt Bonner when he is backed into a corner.

It's time to look at someone else besides the players and make a fucking move.

Pop and RC need to move the fuck on.

[objective]

We need our recently drafted guys like Splitter, Anderson and Leonard to step up. If they can then we can be very competitive. If not then we might be lottery bound.

Those players will never be able to step up as long as they are being sat down.

I am more high on the possibilities of Leonard and Splitter than timvp is, but the fact remains:

Pop is Pop.

If he refused to play Splitter last year, the ACB MVP and a legit big man, after having the other non-Duncan bigs on the roster exposed the year before . . . I don't see how he'd get over himself for this season.

[rascal]

I don't know why so many people are so high on Splitter. Pop didn't play him for a reason, he just wasn't that good.

He is not going to be any type of difference maker. He is offensively challenged away from the basket(no perimeter shot), gets muscled and positioned out away from the basket easily by stronger players and is not a strong defender, has no post presence shot blocking ability to alter shots and is not an exceptionaly good rebounder.

[SenorSpur]

I don't know why so many people are so high on Splitter. Pop didn't play him for a reason, he just wasn't that good.

He is not going to be any type of difference maker. He is offensively challenged away from the basket(no perimeter shot), gets muscled and positioned out away from the basket easily by stronger players and is not a strong defender, has no post presence shot blocking ability and is not an exceptional rebounder.

And at this point, what else do the Spurs have? The Red-headed 3-pt chucker, the undersized PC/C and the Dice Man, who is clearly running on fumes now.

[AFBlue]

Those players will never be able to step up as long as they are being sat down.

I am more high on the possibilities of Leonard and Splitter than timvp is, but the fact remains:

Pop is Pop.

If he refused to play Splitter last year, the ACB MVP and a legit big man, after having the other non-Duncan bigs on the roster exposed the year before . . . I don't see how he'd get over himself for this season.

Spurs were winning and Splitter was still learning...so why mess with it? I think Splitter will play this year because Pop lacks other realistic options and probably trusts Splitter to execute with a year under his belt. Same goes for Anderson (especially if RJ is cut). As for Leonard, it's all about opportunity. I think the fact that he's a capable small-ball 4, which Pop loves, will help him...but he'll need to execute when given the opportunity. Outside of that and the defensive stopper role, I don't see him getting much court time in his rookie campaign (caveats for injury or struggle of Anderson).

[Russ]

I don't know why so many people are so high on Splitter. Pop didn't play him for a reason, he just wasn't that good.


Pop doesn't think any Spurs non-Hall of Fame big man is any good (and that leaves just two).

Pop has given up on all of 'em (even those that got rings).

Splitter almost got the Spurs back into the Memphis series after all else failed.

I think Splitter is good enough to force his way past Pop's big man graveyard/purgatory. We shall see.

[AFBlue]

I don't know why so many people are so high on Splitter. Pop didn't play him for a reason, he just wasn't that good.

He is not going to be any type of difference maker. He is offensively challenged away from the basket(no perimeter shot), gets muscled and positioned out away from the basket easily by stronger players and is not a strong defender, has no post presence shot blocking ability to alter shots and is not an exceptionaly good rebounder.

He is a strong defender, especially help-side. He doesn't block a ton of shots, but he does get his hands up and has the length to alter them. His offensive game is ugly, but it's effective. He suffered from not having tone in the system, but he should be much more comfortable and competent in his sophomore campaign. I'm not expecting "big things" from Splitter, but he's better than you're making him out to be.

[ElNono]

Spurs were winning and Splitter was still learning...so why mess with it?

Because that record was fool's gold?
And because when he realized he needed Splitter, Splitter wasn't ready?

[AFBlue]

Because that record was fool's gold?
And because when he realized he needed Splitter, Splitter wasn't ready?

Easy to question when you know the end result was a failure.

[TDMVPDPOY]

Previously, my stance was that as long as you have the Big Three and surround them with somewhat adequate talent, it'd be a mistake to throw that away and rebuild. It's rare that a small market franchise can put together a trio as talented as TD, Manu and TP -- even at this stage of their careers. To blow up the Big Three when there is still a chance at a championship, even if we are talking about a less than 10% chance, would be a mistake and it would be underestimating just how difficult it is for a San Antonio franchise to get as close as they are.


the problem now is you cant just alot any pieces to the puzzle, this puzzle is now at the eend of its lifespan with what you can do to it, the big 3 and whatever currently is on the team besides kawhi are worth SHIT. we cant continue to put pieces around them, we need to go out find the next big 3 to build around....

[Nathan89]

The Spurs could've done better the last few years but fucking Pop keeps playing Matt Bonner when he is backed into a corner.

It's time to look at someone else besides the players and make a fucking move.

Pop and RC need to move the fuck on.

Seems Pop and company have a problem with Escalation of Commitment.

In spite of new negative information, commitment actually increases.

[Obstructed_View]

I don't know why so many people are so high on Splitter. Pop didn't play him for a reason, he just wasn't that good.

He is not going to be any type of difference maker. He is offensively challenged away from the basket(no perimeter shot), gets muscled and positioned out away from the basket easily by stronger players and is not a strong defender, has no post presence shot blocking ability to alter shots and is not an exceptionaly good rebounder.

Translation: I didn't watch the playoffs last year.

[Nathan89]

Easy to question when you know the end result was a failure.

The thing is many people on here recognized this issue throughout the season. Pop didn't recognize it until Grizz had the Spurs head in the pillow.

[analyzed]

This is the first time I've heard Pop admit the lack of size:

“There’s got to be enough size there,” Popovich said. “We need a (big man) that can guard. If you get one that can guard, the more that guys spread the floor, the better off you are.”

So question , what is he and FO doing about it !

[AFBlue]

The thing is many people on here recognized this issue throughout the season. Pop didn't recognize it until Grizz had the Spurs head in the pillow.

Would love to meet these "many people".

Spurs had a stated goal of securing home court for the playoffs and they were accomplishing the goal. If they had gambled and given Splitter more opportunity during the season, would it have cost them in victories? And how much more time would Splitter have needed to be ready for this matchup nightmare that "many people" saw?

My point is that you can Monday morning quarterback the shit out of Pop's decision to hold PT from Splitter, but I doubt "many people" were saying it would be to the long-term detriment of the team WHILE we were winning all those games.

[TDMVPDPOY]

the morons who didnt watch splitter in the playoffs last season when he got minutes, should all go eat a dick, he held his own underneath the ring single handedly man to man defense untill he was force to bail out blair, bonners mistakes...

if you want to try a trial and error, look at ghill first playoff series against the mavericks where he couldve came in handy after a successful rookie campaign, he wasnt used in that series, but the year later he was used againsst the mavs and we won that series....

if there is one person to blame, blame it on the coach

pop is starting to become like those coaches who hang around the organization way too long and hasnt adapt to change to his surroundings...bring in a new coach

[AFBlue]

the morons who didnt watch splitter in the playoffs last season when he got minutes, should all go eat a dick, he held his own underneath the ring single handedly man to man defense untill he was force to bail out blair, bonners mistakes...

if you want to try a trial and error, look at ghill first playoff series against the mavericks where he couldve came in handy after a successful rookie campaign, he wasnt used in that series, but the year later he was used againsst the mavs and we won that series....

if there is one person to blame, blame it on the coach

pop is starting to become like those coaches who hang around the organization way too long and hasnt adapt to change to his surroundings...bring in a new coach

Spurs won the Mavs series b/c of Hill and then he completely disappeared in the Suns series. Who is to say he would've had the same effect against the Mavs in the previous year just because he had success against them the following year?

If Splitter is in that series earlier do the Spurs win? Or does Splitter miss a key defensive rotation because he's still learning the system and the Spurs still lose? It's easy to say that Pop should've done "x" because you knew the outcome of not doing "x" resulted in failure. You can't say fo certain that doing "x" results in success, but I guess that doesnt matter.

[ElNono]

Easy to question when you know the end result was a failure.

I'm pretty sure it was Pop that both played down the record AND threw Splitter into the fire when the end result was still not decided.

I'm just the messenger.

[Ice009]

This is the first time I've heard Pop admit the lack of size:

“There’s got to be enough size there,” Popovich said. “We need a (big man) that can guard. If you get one that can guard, the more that guys spread the floor, the better off you are.”

So question , what is he and FO doing about it !

Timvp said that quote was from May.

[ElNono]

Would love to meet these "many people".

They were here throughout, you just missed them.


My point is that you can Monday morning quarterback the shit out of Pop's decision to hold PT from Splitter, but I doubt "many people" were saying it would be to the long-term detriment of the team WHILE we were winning all those games.

Again, you missed them. Plenty of fool's gold talk here about that record before the playoffs started. While people might not have guessed the season was ending in the 1st round, I think it's fair to say there was a general consensus our frontline was not up to par to win a championship.

[AFBlue]

I'm pretty sure it was Pop that both played down the record AND threw Splitter into the fire when the end result was still not decided.

I'm just the messenger.

He always plays down the record when they're doing well and takes the opportunity to rip them when they're playing poorly. It's his MO to lack positivity and keep his group grounded.

[ElNono]

Spurs won the Mavs series b/c of Hill and then he completely disappeared in the Suns series. Who is to say he would've had the same effect against the Mavs in the previous year just because he had success against them the following year?

Because that year we were trotting out a scared Roger Mason Jr. You can win or lose, but you have to play your best players, and Hill at that point was a better player than RMJ for what was required of that role (backup PG).


If Splitter is in that series earlier do the Spurs win? Or does Splitter miss a key defensive rotation because he's still learning the system and the Spurs still lose? It's easy to say that Pop should've done "x" because you knew the outcome of not doing "x" resulted in failure. You can't say fo certain that doing "x" results in success, but I guess that doesnt matter.

Nobody is saying there's guaranteed wins. That doesn't mean you shouldn't try alternatives when you both have the talent sitting on the bench and what you're trotting out there is getting abused.

[ElNono]

He always plays down the record when they're doing well and takes the opportunity to rip them when they're playing poorly. It's his MO to lack positivity and keep his group grounded.

So what's your point? Pop himself threw Splitter out there into the fire when the series was going sour. Why didn't he stick to his convictions if we "won so many games"?

[AFBlue]

They were here throughout, you just missed them.



Again, you missed them. Plenty of fool's gold talk here about that record before the playoffs started. While people might not have guessed the season was ending in the 1st round, I think it's fair to say there was a general consensus our frontline was not up to par to win a championship.

Links?

It's true I may have missed them because I was deployed at the time.

I understand the talk about fool's gold, but you're saying a large number were saying that Splitter needed the PT while we were winning because they knew he'd help come playoff time?

[AFBlue]

So what's your point? Pop himself threw Splitter out there into the fire when the series was going sour. Why didn't he stick to his convictions if we "won so many games"?

Actually helps my point. Pop didn't need to make the adjustment when the Spurs were winning, but Splitter was a natural adjustment when they started losing. You could argue that he waited too long to make the adjustment, but that's a different argument than saying they should've gone to him more during the season in spite of a highly successful campaign.

[Nathan89]

Links?

It's true I may have missed them because I was deployed at the time.

I understand the talk about fool's gold, but you're saying a large number were saying that Splitter needed the PT while we were winning because they knew he'd help come playoff time?

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=175326&highlight=tiago+splitter


-I just don't see DeJuan matching up well with any potential playoff opponents, especially the Lakers. His greatest skill is offensive rebounding and that skill greatly diminishes when hes going up against legit rebounding 7 footers.


I strongly believe Tiago should be given DeJuan's minutes when the playoffs start. I don't think Pop will do it but the Blair/Bonner disaster shows that an adjustment has to be made....I just hope Pop realizes this before it's too late....wishful thinking most likely

TBH, there was a lot of this throughout the year from a lot of different people.

[ElNono]

Links?

It's true I may have missed them because I was deployed at the time.

I understand the talk about fool's gold, but you're saying a large number were saying that Splitter needed the PT while we were winning because they knew he'd help come playoff time?

Yes. Use the Search function. They should all there. I know for a fact that a good amount of posters did (including me).

I gotta get some sleep, but some here:
http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5054600&postcount=15
http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5079000&postcount=8
http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5099901&postcount=23
http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5113792&postcount=9
http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4881490&postcount=80
http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=174617

Look at the dates...

[Nathan89]

I may be in the minority on this one, but I want the Spurs to face the Grizz rather than the Hornets. The main reason being their frontcourt size - IMO it's the best way to prepare for an eventual meeting with LA. The Spurs' frontcourt will have their hands full keeping ZBo and Gasol under control, and hopefully that helps them raise their game.

Also, playing Memphis fractionally increases the chance that Pop goes to Splitter, after Bonner gets owned on the boards. Aw, who am I kidding, Pop is never playing Splitter any meaningful minutes this year, even if Memphis exposes Bonner for the fraud that he is ---Warlord23

:bang

Great post though.

[ElNono]

Actually helps my point. Pop didn't need to make the adjustment when the Spurs were winning, but Splitter was a natural adjustment when they started losing. You could argue that he waited too long to make the adjustment, but that's a different argument than saying they should've gone to him more during the season in spite of a highly successful campaign.

Splitter wasn't ready. The regular season is when you get your players ready. That's what the argument has been all along. No team plays to win the regular season 'championship'.

[ElNono]

This one from March straight to the point:
http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=175799

[therealtruth]

Splitter could definitely have helped if he had been thrown in earlier. I think Splitter/TD can be great defensively. At least it would have saved Dice wear and tear and allowed man to man defense. The Grizzlies probably don't hit all those outside shots if our perimeter guys don't have to worry about helping. It's always better to play man-to-man especially if you don't have the personnel to aggressively double and cover shooters.

I agree Pop should have known he would need to use Splitter. Even just for the idea it gives you more options. The Mavs knew they would need Chandler to battle against Bynum/Gasol. It's simply helps to have more size.

[objective]

from 3-16 (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5058010&postcount=106)


I've been posting about the Spurs being frauds for months now, and Splitter is the biggest part of that.

This is not a title contending team with worn out McDyess, undersized (and 2nd year slump imo) Blair, and playoff choking Matt Bonner all in the big rotation over Splitter. Hell, 10-Day Turnover Steve Novak is ahead of Splitter.

It's a joke, and the punchline is so great because of all the posters who continually pooh-poohed any concern over Splitter's lack of time all season. First it was "Bonner is the 5th big!" then came the "He missed camp, he's being worked in slowly", then the "Why mess up a good thing?" nonsense.

The Spurs are frauds who win games based on good health and the individual efforts of the big three with some regular season help from Gary Neal. That won't be good enough to win a title. They still have choke artists and disappearing acts like Bonner and Jefferson getting ready for playoff mode, they still don't have enough size without an established Splitter, and have unproven playoff commodities like Neal who could pull a Roger Mason, though I feel Neal's game is more well-rounded and can avoid a complete disaster.

Pop messing things up with his stubborness and his grudges has been posted about forever, but it seems more people are waking up to it. It's not a 'fire Pop!' declaration, it's just a frank admitting of his weaknesses; remember, nobody's perfect.

Splitter was the damn MVP of the second greatest league in the world and is getting bench-stomped by Steve Novak.

It's a disgrace, on par with some 10-day scrub getting Bowen's number.

[ALVAREZ6]

Actually helps my point. Pop didn't need to make the adjustment when the Spurs were winning, but Splitter was a natural adjustment when they started losing. You could argue that he waited too long to make the adjustment, but that's a different argument than saying they should've gone to him more during the season in spite of a highly successful campaign.

He should have played Splitter more throughout the season because the team that he coaches had championship hopes. Any team with NBA championship hopes, especially one in the Western Conference (meaning they inevitably must go through the Lakers), needs solid big men, primarily for defense and rebounds. The NBA playoffs are different than the regular season. The tempo is slower, teams can focus more on defense as they have 7-game rounds which allow for adjustments...the style naturally requires solid post players. There was no chance in hell for the Spurs to make it far in the playoffs with a post-prime Duncan as sole PF/C duties provider and some hot shooting guards.

The wins margin should have been enough to be comfortable with throwing Splitter in more often. I don't understand how Pop, a coach with such extensive playoff experience who understand what it takes to win, didn't play his 7' center more in the regular season while hoping his team could make a deep playoff run.

[jjktkk]

Splitter could definitely have helped if he had been thrown in earlier. I think Splitter/TD can be great defensively. At least it would have saved Dice wear and tear and allowed man to man defense. The Grizzlies probably don't hit all those outside shots if our perimeter guys don't have to worry about helping. It's always better to play man-to-man especially if you don't have the personnel to aggressively double and cover shooters.

I agree Pop should have known he would need to use Splitter. Even just for the idea it gives you more options. The Mavs knew they would need Chandler to battle against Bynum/Gasol. It's simply helps to have more size.

The Difference in Chandler though is his expierence. You can blame Pop for not having Splitter ready for the playoffs, but watching Splitter during the Memphis series, he wasn't ready to cotribute on a consistant basis.

[ElNono]

Pop handed minutes to Steve Novak ahead of Splitter. It's not even that the minutes were not there. And Steve Novak was playing garbage time anyways.

[objective]

more by me

11-17 (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4752211&postcount=565)


Looks like Pop is in playoff mode.

Big man minute distribution:

1. Duncan
2. Bonner
3. Blair
4. McDyess
5. Splitter (DNP-CD)

greaaaaaaaaat

1-07 (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4880773&postcount=478)


Another DNP/garbage-time game for Splitter.

Because we all know meaningless DEC-JAN games are no time to get someone ready for the playoffs.

1-07 (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4881214&postcount=47)


Starting Splitter is the way to go. This is January, no better time than to give him the chance to get with it.

If he's garbage by the all-star break, you still have McDyess or Blair to start.

1-07 (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4881300&postcount=63)


the only reason Splitter's development is slow is because the Spurs are making it slow.

...

then it's settled that they aren't title contenders this year if that's the case (Pop not playing Splitter).

We've seen the Bonner/Blair/McDyess dog and pony show before, and we know how it ends.

1-07 (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4881557&postcount=82)


There's no good excuses to sit Splitter anymore.

Not even the "he missed training camp!" excuse. Or the "look at all their wins, if it ain't broke!..." one. They are struggling and there's no hurt to shake it up a little.

It's not like he was in Brazil, he was actually at the camp, he just wasn't playing.

He was the MVP and title winner of the second best league in the world and has shown in the few minutes he was gifted that he was at least useful defensively. It's not like he's Oberto who was behind a starter with a ring (Nazr) while also undersized and already over-the-hill athletically.

4-16 playoff preview thread (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5141397&postcount=53)


Spurs will have to reproduce their first round from last year:

Carried by the stars, plus George Hill stepping up his game much more than he did most of the regular season. Crusty savvyness from McDyess.

And that's it. Still a fraud team who would get smashed in the second round though.

But they did beat the higher seed last year while overcoming Bonner being wretched Bonner, RJ disappearing except for quarters 1-3 of game 2 and some results in game 4, and being benched in crunch time in several games, Mason being Mason, and little playing time for Blair or the 5th big.

Maybe Neal can succeed where Mason failed.

But the risk of Bonner getting pancaked against Randolph and Gasol and still choking while Jefferson lollygags and is outperformed by his MEM counterparts can make things very hard. Plus Splitter being ritually sacrificed in the name of "These playoffs aren't for him, it wouldn't be fair, he needs to get over himself, he can't spread the floor, he was too chummy with Scola" doesn't help.

[objective]

The Spurs were winning regular season games because the big 3 were healthy and playing their ass off. Which works in the regular season. That's the real 'corporate knowledge', being good enough when healthy to win regular season games. But the playoffs are a different animal.

The Spurs were one of two teams iirc that had 3 rotation players all with a PER of at least 20. The other team was the Lakers, and Bynum missed I think 28 games. The big 3 combined missed only 9 games when you don't count that tanked LA game right next to the end.

That's remarkable, and shows just how under served the big 3 were both by the scrub chokers around them (RJ and Bonner) and Pop's antics with Splitter.

So when the playoffs come, and the big 3 are no longer healthy, and the pressure ramps up and the chokers choke, and Splitter gets George Hill'd . . . the corporate knowledge is useless.

No more of the choking Axis of Failure with Bonner and Jefferson and the Spurs will be on the road to giving the big 3 the help they need. That means Splitter, Leonard, and Anderson getting playing time all season long has to be a priority. But will that happen?

:lol I wish

[Obstructed_View]

The Difference in Chandler though is his expierence. You can blame Pop for not having Splitter ready for the playoffs, but watching Splitter during the Memphis series, he wasn't ready to cotribute on a consistant basis.

Yeah, his ten points and nine rebounds in 20 minutes was one of the worst playoff debuts in Spurs history. :lol

People, there's a reason the Grizzlies tanked to get the Spurs. There are a lot of us that knew the Spurs were going to get chewed up on the front line. Jesus, even I got sick of reading my posts that had the word "Splitter" in them.

[ElNono]

AFBlue should get a pass because he did say he wasn't around then. But there's no doubt the point was brought up before Memphis rickrolled us.

[Obstructed_View]

Yes, it was argued bitterly starting about the time Pop made it clear that he had no plans to start Duncan and Splitter together.

[DrSteffo]

Words of wisdom from the OP. Corporate knowledge is necessary but not sufficient. We will be a good team but I cant see us beating the Grizzlies since they should be slightly better this year and we should be slightly worse. It was a great run though.

[Obstructed_View]

I think with Splitter and Leonard the Spurs have a chance to be quite a bit better than they were last year, even if it's not reflected in their regular season winning percentage.

[therealtruth]

The Spurs were winning regular season games because the big 3 were healthy and playing their ass off. Which works in the regular season. That's the real 'corporate knowledge', being good enough when healthy to win regular season games. But the playoffs are a different animal.

The Spurs were one of two teams iirc that had 3 rotation players all with a PER of at least 20. The other team was the Lakers, and Bynum missed I think 28 games. The big 3 combined missed only 9 games when you don't count that tanked LA game right next to the end.

That's remarkable, and shows just how under served the big 3 were both by the scrub chokers around them (RJ and Bonner) and Pop's antics with Splitter.

So when the playoffs come, and the big 3 are no longer healthy, and the pressure ramps up and the chokers choke, and Splitter gets George Hill'd . . . the corporate knowledge is useless.

No more of the choking Axis of Failure with Bonner and Jefferson and the Spurs will be on the road to giving the big 3 the help they need. That means Splitter, Leonard, and Anderson getting playing time all season long has to be a priority. But will that happen?

:lol I wish

Like you said big 3 were mostly healthy and they got lots of lucky breaks. They ran into several good teams missing their stars.

[DrSteffo]

I think with Splitter and Leonard the Spurs have a chance to be quite a bit better than they were last year, even if it's not reflected in their regular season winning percentage.

I hope so but I don't really think so with Duncan and Manu being one year older and Hill and maybe Dice gone. Also, while I would prefer to see Splitter get minutes instead of Bonner and teddybear Blair Pop is still the coach.

[Horse]

Man fuck this guy the season hasn't even started. And this team did not lose to memphis cause Manu was hurt. If we can jump out early and avoid injury we'll be fine. With a healthy Manu who know what could've happened last year. No one and I mean NO ONE picked dallas to win last season.

[Old School 44]

The Spurs will not go full blowup/rebuild mode until Tim's no longer on the roster.
Look for him to retire at year's end and then get ready for some .400 - .500 ball if we're lucky.

[Manu20]

Its fairly clear that the spurs are not going to make any major changes to the roster. I'm still rather optimistic has a at least 1 more playoff run in them but in order for that to happen TP needs to take full reign of the team. I'm looking for TP to average 20+ points and around 7 assists...

[Obstructed_View]

I hope so but I don't really think so with Duncan and Manu being one year older and Hill and maybe Dice gone. Also, while I would prefer to see Splitter get minutes instead of Bonner and teddybear Blair Pop is still the coach.

Their performance in the playoffs tells me that the team is automatically better with them not on it.

[jjktkk]

I think with Splitter and Leonard the Spurs have a chance to be quite a bit better than they were last year, even if it's not reflected in their regular season winning percentage.

This. I would also toss Blair in there, who from reports, has shown up in shape and seems motivated.

[5in10]

This. I would also toss Blair in there, who from reports, has shown up in shape and seems motivated.

I would also toss in Neal, and Anderson who should be pretty solid on both ends of the courts. His athleticism looked pretty good in those games he played over the summer.

[Dex]

Eff Corporate Knowledge. :wow

[GSH]

Corporate knowledge is an asset, not a strategy. The world doesn't stand still - internally or externally. The Air Force put a lot of effort into retention of pilots for prop-powered planes. But pilots grow old, and those irritating new jets come on the scene. Corporate knowledge can become counter-productive if you don't keep an eye on the changes going on around you.

[Fabbs]

Talk to Pop for any length of time about the basketball team he coaches and he's sure to utter his favorite buzz-phrase: corporate knowledge......................................... .

That's the corporate reality and there's no unlearning that knowledge.
Time stamp this post for July 2007 and I'm down.

[DMC]

I don't think it's any great secret what happened last year or what needs to happen this year. The only unknown, really, is what Holt wants from this team.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Great thread! And I've only read the first page! :toast

Excellent OP by timvp, and I've been thinking similar thoughts, although I'm pretty sure our Era ended 2 years ago with that dismantling by the Suns, or even the year before. Ever since Bruce hasn't been locking down the perimeter (2007-8 was his last strong season), we've been sliding slowly into obscurity.

My take is that, if the rumours I've been hearing about Tim's knees are correct, he will probably retire after this season (please correct me if I'm wrong).

Even though the franchise would love to give Tim one more strong run at a ring, they simply don't have the assets to strengthen the roster much. I'm sure Pop would love to add a nasty perimeter defender, shotblocker, or post scorer, but where's he going to get one with the assets he's got? This FA period there are bloated contracts being thrown around (ironic given that from the owner's perspective the lockout was all about bloated contracts!), which makes it even harder for the Spurs to be a player in the market.

Thus, Pop's thinking is probably as LJ suggests - go with what we've got and whatever bargains we can pick up in free agency, then pray that corporate knowledge and peaking at the right time like Dallas did last year will be enough to get the miracle done. Supreme optimism, although I guess we did it in each of the Championship years.

Pop/RC's secondary thinking is that if things go pear-shaped they can always go into full-blown rebuild mode by trading some or all of the Big Three around the deadline, or by simply waiting until the end of the season when Tim's contract comes off the books, then trading Manu (who has one year left on his contract and could be just the piece a contender would need - imagine him in Chicago!) and Tony. It'll be a sad day, but things could pan out that way.

So, I think it's one more time around the track, sorry we couldn't bring better horses, cross your fingers and pray for 2007 (when we came out of nowhere to snatch the title!). :king


Why? I'd sure as hell rather watch Timmy and Manu not win a ring, than watch a bunch of people I don't care about not win a ring.

Agreed.


Did you intentionally not talk about Kawhi and Tiago?

They are the great hope for this season, along with some improvement from Grizzly and Neal, and a presence from Anderson. If they all outperform reasonable expectations, we could be a very good team. Unlikely, but you've gotta hope. ;)


Spurs are just going to have to luck into another Timmy or DRob. Why? Its simple. No one wants to play in SA. Its like having to play in Milwaukee or Minnesota.

Sad but true.


They had that in Neal. What they didn't have which was way more crucial and on all title teams was
(1) An MVP-level Tim Duncan
(2) An all-time great defensive player (DRob, Bowen).

Also sad but true.


Explosion or a radioactive RJ-fueled slow implosion.

If they can't get rid of RJ and the season starts to spiral downward, then I think at the trade deadline they should consider blowing it up. And by blowing it up, you would have to trade Duncan and the other 2. I don't see how you can do it another way.

How can you trade Tony and Manu and then expect Tim to stand around while the team goes for the lottery? I think it's all or none, and that may be why the FO is taking their time/drinking away their sorrows.

My proposal: given that great team defense will probably not be possible, Pop really needs to commit to a style and go with it. Focusing on D makes sense on paper but in reality, as Timvp states, they don't have the people or the talent to be a great defensive team. So, I agree that they should stick with their guard/jump shooting approach.

In fact, they should do everything they did last year starting out...except this time actually stick to it. Pop, ever the underconfident overthinker, blinked and tried to mix defense with our running offense and we ended up with mud.

This team he needs to push offense all the way. Why not? At least make it fun for fans. Get the most out of RJ if he's still on the team. Let Tony get out on the break. Let Manu play loose. Let Blair play loose. Let Leonard make mistakes.

And after the fans have been thrilled and bamboozled a bit, when the trade deadline comes around, THEN strongly consider trading the Big 3. Teams will be licking their chops to try and steal a championship and could possibly be eager to trade.

I'm not saying it will happen, but there could be a great opportunity to get young talent and draft picks. And then next year amnesty RJ and move on.

Trading the Big 3 seems horrible, but I'd actually rather see them try to win a title somewhere else then watch the Spurs implode.

Yup.


Basically, I don't think there is any one specific hole the Spurs have to fill to give themselves a shot. The Spurs could add a defensive swingman, a shotblocking bigman or a scoring bigman and that will change things enough to allow the possibility of a championship run. Staying the same doesn't even give the team a chance, which is a shame.

I actually was relatively upbeat after last season because I thought that with a few alterations, the Big Three looked capable of possibly giving it another go. But that was assuming that the Spurs would do something more than sign the corpse of TJ Ford.

Hopefully I'm mistaking patience for passiveness, but I guess we'll see.

Last season was such a massive disappointment after that start! For the first two months of the year we weren't only firing on all cylinders on the offensive end (although that was certainly winning a lot of games), at times, for short stretches, we also look like an elite defensive team. Unfortunately, the defence looked better than it really was because it takes a month or two for most NBA teams to get their offence right. As other teams improved their offence, so our defence went down the toilet.


I sincerely doubt they could get much for Manu. Parker clearly has the best trade value. I'm not suggesting that they pull the trigger on that trade now. However, an immediate upgrade at the PF/C position is desparately needed. If the FO cannot upgrade this position prior to the start of the season, with the limited assets they have, then I believe you have to look at perhaps moving TP by the trade deadline. Otherwise, a mediocre season awaits, along with a long an eminent rebuilding process at season's end. Trading TP in March will only help jumpstart such a rebuilding effort.

Manu has plenty of value! He could easily be the piece that puts a team over the top. Imagine him in Chicago for example.

[baseline bum]

Thus, Pop's thinking is probably as LJ suggests - go with what we've got and whatever bargains we can pick up in free agency, then pray that corporate knowledge and peaking at the right time like Dallas did last year will be enough to get the miracle done. Supreme optimism, although I guess we did it in each of the Championship years.


It's almost hard to say Dallas was peaking. They were lights out all season except for that stretch when Nowitzki got hurt. Besides, their HOFer isn't worn into the ground and they had a top defensive big. You can't say either for the Spurs. I don't think Dallas' title was a fluke, but the Spurs winning one would sure be. Amazing to say that with Parker and Ginobili still playing at peak levels, but that shows just how important Tim Duncan is. The guards get way too much credit for the Spurs success last decade.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

It's almost hard to say Dallas was peaking. They were lights out all season except for that stretch when Nowitzki got hurt. Besides, their HOFer isn't worn into the ground and they had a top defensive big. You can't say either for the Spurs. I don't think Dallas' title was a fluke, but the Spurs winning one would sure be. Amazing to say that with Parker and Ginobili still playing at peak levels, but that shows just how important Tim Duncan is. The guards get way too much credit for the Spurs success last decade.

Yeah, I'm not comparing our chances to last year's Mavericks who were clearly a more complete team than we are by a long way.

And yeah, Tim's rapid decline last year, and the absence of elite Bowen for the past 3 seasons, has been instrumental in our slow decline. However, Manu should've been co-Finals MVP in 2005, TP was unstoppable in the 2007 Finals, and both had clutch moments in the 2003 playoffs (although Jax had more! And Speedy saved TP's arse in the Finals!). ;)

[baseline bum]

Yeah, I'm not comparing our chances to last year's Mavericks who were clearly a more complete team than we are by a long way.

And yeah, Tim's rapid decline last year, and the absence of elite Bowen for the past 3 seasons, has been instrumental in our slow decline. However, Manu should've been co-Finals MVP in 2005, TP was unstoppable in the 2007 Finals, and both had clutch moments in the 2003 playoffs (although Jax had more! And Speedy saved TP's arse in the Finals!). ;)

I thought the decline was pretty rapid. The team dropped off pretty quickly in 2008-09 and has been stuck at the same level since.

[objective]

Even in the best case scenario, I don't think Leonard can be a championship-caliber difference-maker offensively. Asking that out of a non-lottery pick is asking something that hasn't been accomplished by any player in NBA history that I know of.

maybe I'm just nitpicking and I know you're talking about offense, but the reasons Leonard wasn't a lottery pick weren't about his game.

I posted this (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5325951&postcount=31) awhile ago, but


Lon Babby was on PHX radio (http://icestream.bonnint.net:8000/az/audio/2011/06/06242011094153.mp3) and basically said that the reason they chose Morris over Leonard was because Leonard refused to workout for them and they took him completely off their board as a result. He said that when you as a player do that, you "disqualify yourself". And of course Morris was enthusiastic about becoming a Sun going back to Chicago.

Add in the other stuff like only doing measurements at the combine and those without warm-up, and it looks like his agent and Leonard's actions in the run up to the draft are why he wasn't a lottery pick.

[xellos88330]

One of the things that really bothers me is that last seasons champion didn't have an inside-out game. That team swept the Lakers and beat the Heatles in the finals. Perhaps the NBA has changed?

[lefty]

Its fairly clear that the spurs are not going to make any major changes to the roster. I'm still rather optimistic has a at least 1 more playoff run in them but in order for that to happen TP needs to take full reign of the team. I'm looking for TP to average 20+ points and around 7 assists...
:lmao
Franchise player

[Obstructed_View]

One of the things that really bothers me is that last seasons champion didn't have an inside-out game. That team swept the Lakers and beat the Heatles in the finals. Perhaps the NBA has changed?

When Dirk is posting up and going aggressively to the rim, the Mavs are an inside-out team. Doesn't matter anyway; the Spurs haven't been inside-out in several years. They now gameplan to shoot threes.

[Strategic]

It looks as if the FO is banking on the starters holding their own against the top heavy competition and the team's depth being able to gain the edge for the Spurs. The Lakers, Mavs, Thunder, Grizzlies and Clips are leaning heavy on the starters, and ditto for the top teams in the East. The problem is that depth doesn't play as big of a role in the playoffs. If the team is able to jump out to another regular season great start maybe the FO(corporate knowledge) is banking on convincing a top player to come on board with success rather than with huge payroll? In the meanwhile the TD, MG and company paraphernalia keeps flying off the shelf? With the Spurs, corporate knowledge is staying focused on the bottom line. If not, the team is gone!:wakeup:greedy

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

I thought the decline was pretty rapid. The team dropped off pretty quickly in 2008-09 and has been stuck at the same level since.

Would you believe I was going to say that but thought my memory might be faulty!

Bruce made all the difference, he really did. :depressed

Big 4 until the end of time.