Immigration Crackdown Also Snares Americans

[ElNono]

Immigration Crackdown Also Snares Americans (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/14/us/measures-to-capture-illegal-aliens-nab-citizens.html?_r=1&hp)

Exact numbers of Americans erroneously held by immigration authorities are hard to come by, since they are not systematically recorded. In one study, 82 people who were held for deportation from 2006 to 2008 at two immigration detention centers in Arizona, for periods as long as a year, were freed after immigration judges determined that they were American citizens.

[mavs>spurs]

There is no "immigration crackdown." Border patrol agents are told to let em go unless they're felons and in some cases even get sued by the illegals for arresting them (yup it was really in the news lately)

If anything this is more government "pro illegal immigrant" propaganda.

[ElNono]

Any opinion about the actual article topic?

[Winehole23]

deportations have reached record levels under Obama, YH

[Wild Cobra]

Any opinion about the actual article topic?
I wonder if they were born in East LA (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0092690/)?

[Wild Cobra]

deportations have reached record levels under Obama, YH
I'm sure they have since the legislation enacted under Bush took effect.

[Winehole23]

what legislation?

[Wild Cobra]

what legislation?
I don't recall, but I remember things did happen in a positive manner.

[Winehole23]

uh huh

[Winehole23]

http://www.texastribune.org/immigration-in-texas/immigration/illegal-crossings-southwest-border-falling-sharply/

[boutons_deux]

The Banksters' Great Jobs Depression and N. MX drug violence has done more to reduce flow northward and to increase flow southward than assholes like Arpaio and fat old white men playing border militiamen.

When/if the economy picks up again, the flows above will reverse tendency.

Plenty of really sad stories of US citizens being imprisoned indefinitely or deported for want of South-African-style-apartheid "identity papers".

[ElNono]

I'm sure they have since the legislation enacted under Bush took effect.


what legislation?


I don't recall

:lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao

[La Migra]

deportations have reached record levels under Obama, YH

:tu Just like the patriot act is going to ruffle American citizen feathers, this shit happens.

[mavs>spurs]

Any opinion about the actual article topic?

Yeah, I think it's pure government propaganda to steer us towards being okay with them amnestying the fuck out of about 30 million illegals, or at least not freaking out about it.

[ElNono]

Yeah, I think it's pure government propaganda to steer us towards being okay with them amnestying the fuck out of about 30 million illegals, or at least not freaking out about it.

But that's not what the article is about. There's no mention of amnesty on it.

What are your thoughts about American citizens being detained up to a year on alleged immigration violations?

[boutons_deux]

do you have any proof the greatly increased number of deportations is a lie?

what is your solution of the 11M illegal aliens in the country? bitch and moan, but no solution, right?

[mavs>spurs]

But that's not what the article is about. There's no mention of amnesty on it.

What are your thoughts about American citizens being detained up to a year on alleged immigration violations?

You dense fuck I'm saying that they're only making a big deal about it for bullshit reasons. It happens. 30 million of your people break the law and it inconveniences 82 of you boo hoo.

[Winehole23]

if you were detained erroneously and held by immigration for up to a year, you'd think it a big deal

[Winehole23]

~30 citizens/year detained in error per year is a shocking number to me. those are lives interrrupted. if that gives you peace of mind, fuck your peace of mind. a man's liberty is worth a whole lot more.

btw the lawbreakers you refer to are usually only in violation of administrative rules, not criminal statutes. calling them lawbreakers is misleading inasmuch as the usual sense of the word denotes common criminals.

[Winehole23]

30 false detentions of US citizens. per year. liberty in the meat grinder of immigration. is cool with YH because immigration is his axe to grind.

[Winehole23]

would 30 false deportations bug you, YH? just curious.

[ElNono]

Not only that, ICE readily admits it has no authority to detain US citizens... sounds like a crime right there to me.

[Winehole23]

it's facially false imprisonment. ICE needs to be way more careful.

[ElNono]

You dense fuck I'm saying that they're only making a big deal about it for bullshit reasons. It happens. 30 million of your people break the law and it inconveniences 82 of you boo hoo.

Thrown in jail for a year for administrative ineptitude is no big deal?

BTW, they're not 'my people'. My people are the ones wrongfully detained. You know, what the article is about.

lol 30 million

[ElNono]

it's facially false imprisonment. ICE needs to be way more careful.

I suspect they're going to arrest the wrong (as in $$$$) person one of these days, and we taxpayers will be on the hook for the bill.

[Winehole23]

only a matter of time, given the trend

[Winehole23]

a rich law firm might decide to do it pro-bono, with the right case

[Wild Cobra]

Has anyone thought about this rationally?

82 people in three years...

That's a pretty small number of improper incarcerations compared to other improper incarcerations across this nation.

[ElNono]

Has anyone thought about this rationally?

82 people in three years...

That's a pretty small number of improper incarcerations compared to other improper incarcerations across this nation.

Roughly a person every month, from an agency that readily admits it can't detain citizens, yet does?

I guess it's ok until it's you being thrown in jail. :rolleyes

Is your freedom worth catching Jose and Pepe?

[mavs>spurs]

30 false detentions of US citizens. per year. liberty in the meat grinder of immigration. is cool with YH because immigration is his axe to grind.

well maybe he should tell his cousins to stop gettin shit fucked up. seriously, i mean the japanese were detained during WWII and I guess you'd also agree that it wasn't right because their lives were interrupted.

[mavs>spurs]

would 30 false deportations bug you, YH? just curious.

more than 30 ppl every year are locked up for crimes they didn't commit such as murder, or even framed by the police for drug related charges. I guess we should do away with the police and leave people alone to do whatever the fuck they want huh.

[mavs>spurs]

more people have been later set free by DNA or other evidence after years false imprisonment than the 82 who were wrongfully detained, therefore getting rid of the prison system and freeing all the prisoners should be higher on your list before we get to immigration.

[Winehole23]

you're welcome to your opinion. i'm for nothing of the sort.

[mavs>spurs]

http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/12/innocent-people-us-prisons

850 people exonerated since the 80's, sounds like a much bigger problem than 82 to me especially considering the amount of time they spent behind bars some of them on death row, and what about the ones who were executed? should we just not enforce the laws in our society?

[Winehole23]

both problems are perfectly serious. neither should be mildly tolerated. but pretending the only reasonable solution is to abolish LE and immigration enforcement, is absurd.

[ElNono]

You're on a false premise there (YH)... the judicial certainly has the authority to charge you with a crime and remove your freedom while the case is investigated.

ICE has no such authority over american citizens.

[mavs>spurs]

Well that's what the government is trying to do, they do this preemptively getting ready to amnesty the shit out of a bunch of people. And they want you to at least be okay with it enough to not uprise or make too much fuss. Well if it means poor pablo won't be falsely imprisoned..

[mavs>spurs]

You're on a false premise there (YH)... the judicial certainly has the authority to charge you with a crime and remove your freedom while the case is investigated.

ICE has no such authority over american citizens.

So then it should be the cops job, since entering illegally IS breaking the law. Then the cops can hold them while they are "investigated." Better?

[ElNono]

The issue is not about not enforcing immigration enforcement. It's to have the accountability and oversight such that citizens don't have to spend a year in jail before they're released because they were wrongfully imprisoned.

[mavs>spurs]

Yes there should be oversight to go along with ACTUAL real enforcement, we need an overhaul of the system.

[ElNono]

So then it should be the cops job, since entering illegally IS breaking the law. Then the cops can hold them while they are "investigated." Better?

Cops already have the authority to detain somebody for committing a crime.
The problem here is when the cops are ready to release the citizen and ICE requests the person be held and it's actually jailed by ICE afterwards.

[ElNono]

Part of the overhaul should include a very serious penalty for detaining a US citizen for over, say, 7 days. I understand clerical or computer errors, those can happen. But keeping a guy wrongfully detained for a year is ridiculous.

[mavs>spurs]

Part of the overhaul should include a very serious penalty for detaining a US citizen for over, say, 7 days. I understand clerical or computer errors, those can happen. But keeping a guy wrongfully detained for a year is ridiculous.

then add a few trillion to the debt and break the bank because some guys have been wrongfully detained for a hell of a lot longer than 7 days! It's part of law enforcement unfortunately. Nobody is right 100% of the time. out of the several hundred thousand that ICE deports each year, 82 cases ain't bad.

[Winehole23]

how magnanimous of you to be so willing to sacrifice the liberty of others on the altar of your insecurity.

[mavs>spurs]

how magnanimous of you to be so willing to sacrifice the liberty of others on the altar of your insecurity.

you're doing it by being okay with locking people up. you were cool with innocents dying so that your pussy insecure ass didn't have to worry about the big bad murderer coming for you too. ha, pussy

[ElNono]

then add a few trillion to the debt and break the bank because some guys have been wrongfully detained for a hell of a lot longer than 7 days! It's part of law enforcement unfortunately. Nobody is right 100% of the time. out of the several hundred thousand that ICE deports each year, 82 cases ain't bad.

If Congress deemed that ICE required the authority to imprison citizens to carry out their duties, then they would've included such authority. But so far they haven't.

I don't know what you consider your freedom worth, but chasing Pepe and Jose isn't worth a year of my life in jail. I think 7 days is a reasonable number to establish citizenship.

[Winehole23]

you're doing it by being okay with locking people up. you were cool with innocents dying so that your pussy insecure ass didn't have to worry about the big bad murderer coming for you too. ha, pussyI'm against the death penalty.

[mavs>spurs]

If Congress deemed that ICE required the authority to imprison citizens to carry out their duties, then they would've included such authority. But so far they haven't.

I don't know what you consider your freedom worth, but chasing Pepe and Jose isn't worth a year of my life in jail. I think 7 days is a reasonable number to establish citizenship.

Is chasing around violent offenders worth a year of your life in jail?

[Winehole23]

and I'm for better institutional safeguards against US citizens being erroneously imprisoned. wanting LE and immigration to be better at what they do is a call for improvement, not elimination.

your suggestion that no problem worthy of a solution exists only highlights your low regard for the liberty you claim to protect.

[ElNono]

Is chasing around violent offenders worth a year of your life in jail?

We were chasing violent offenders before ICE even existed. You're not really helping your argument there.

But I'll answer the strawman question when Congress grants ICE broad authority to detain US citizens who otherwise wouldn't be detained by LE.

[mavs>spurs]

We were chasing violent offenders before ICE even existed.

So then basically, those granted authority to chase and detain should be the ones chasing and detaining? IE the cops.

[ElNono]

So then basically, those granted authority to chase and detain should be the ones chasing and detaining? IE the cops.

Sure, and AFAIK, they do. Illegal immigration isn't a criminal offense though.
Perhaps you should advocate Congress to make it one.

[mavs>spurs]

Sure, and AFAIK, they do. Illegal immigration isn't a criminal offense though.
Perhaps you should advocate Congress to make it one.

Explain "AFAIK they do"

[ElNono]

Explain "AFAIK they do"

Cops chase and detain criminals... don't they?

[Winehole23]

by "violent offenders" YH may have meant "undocumented immigrants"

[mavs>spurs]

What I'm saying is this

Crying about 82 legals being detained is to illegal immigration as innocents being falsely charged is to crime

[Winehole23]

i heard you the first time. the analogy is incredibly lame for the reason given by ElNono upstream.

[mavs>spurs]

these things are just facts of life when policing laws

[Winehole23]

that's another bad analogy. immigration violations are not crimes.

[Winehole23]

you've built a house of cards on shoddy analogies and bloviation. good luck with that.

[mavs>spurs]

that's another bad analogy. immigration violations are not crimes.

ehh breaking the law is breaking the law

[ElNono]

Crying about 82 legals being detained is to illegal immigration as innocents being falsely charged is to crime

It's nothing like that, actually. One has authority to detain citizens, the other doesn't.

Furthermore, illegal immigration isn't a criminal offense until Congress decides it is, thus the reason cops don't go chasing illegal immigrants.

[ElNono]

ehh breaking the law is breaking the law

Falsely imprisoning people who didn't break the law is...?

[mavs>spurs]

agreed they should make it one for sure, it would stop all this nonsense. give the cops something to do besides revenue generation, they work for us not the other way around remember.

[mavs>spurs]

Falsely imprisoning people who didn't break the law is...?

they did break the law. they broke immigration laws. it just hasn't been deemed a "criminal" offense yet but i hope to see that changed soon.

[ElNono]

they did break the law. they broke immigration laws. it just hasn't been deemed a "criminal" offense yet but i hope to see that changed soon.

US citizens broke immigration law? That makes no sense.

[ElNono]

Unless being brown and having Sanchez as a last name is an immigration violation...

[Winehole23]

remember your 30 million cousins?

apparently YH would be cool with jailing tens of thousands of US citizens unjustly to get rid of "30 million lawbreakers"

[Winehole23]

complacency about the lives of US citizens wasted in unjust imprisonment, for the sake of the mere expediency of some fantasized (or real) big government immigration policy, resembles sadism.

[Winehole23]

very kinky

[Winehole23]

hatin on your cuz like that

[Winehole23]

Unless being brown and having Sanchez as a last name is an immigration violation...scary thing is, it might not matter that it isn't

[Winehole23]

apparently the idea that there is some minimum allowable level of illegality baked into LE, has taken hold.

[mavs>spurs]

You can't enforce anything without it inconveniencing someone. Minor issue compared to how many are falsely imprisoned for criminal charges and nobody has a problem there.

[Winehole23]

bullshit

[JoeChalupa]

Es verdad.

[Winehole23]

momentary inconveniences are one thing, locking up Americans for up to a year in a place where they have no right to a prompt hearing or reliable access to any lawyer, and the authority holding them has no right whatsoever to hold them, is an abomination to the day after Bill of Rights day

[Winehole23]

http://www.fantaisiekids.com/ecomm/images//Blue%20Polka%20Dot%20Tissue%20Box.jpg

[Obstructed_View]

Immigration Crackdown Also Snares Americans (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/14/us/measures-to-capture-illegal-aliens-nab-citizens.html?_r=1&hp)

Exact numbers of Americans erroneously held by immigration authorities are hard to come by, since they are not systematically recorded. In one study, 82 people who were held for deportation from 2006 to 2008 at two immigration detention centers in Arizona, for periods as long as a year, were freed after immigration judges determined that they were American citizens.

What does the article have to do with the quote about a "study" below it? Unless I missed something, there's nothing in the article that says anyone's being held for longer than 48 hours and mentions that Immigration lacks the authority to detain citizens.

I wonder if Obama's voters know about this draconian "Crackdown" that he's leading. Perhaps the people that have been complaining about the borders for the last 30 years had a point and this could have been avoided.

[ElNono]

What does the article have to do with the quote about a "study" below it? Unless I missed something, there's nothing in the article that says anyone's being held for longer than 48 hours and mentions that Immigration lacks the authority to detain citizens.

I wonder if Obama's voters know about this draconian "Crackdown" that he's leading. Perhaps the people that have been complaining about the borders for the last 30 years had a point and this could have been avoided.

The quoted part is the 10th paragraph of the linked article.

[scott]

Jail is fun! No big deal for those Americans, I'm sure they made new friends.

[Winehole23]

is an abomination to the day after Bill of Rights dayfor the record, was not commemorated in this subforum

[Obstructed_View]

The quoted part is the 10th paragraph of the linked article.

Ah, thank you. Upon re-reading, that seems rather thrown in there, as the rest of the article doesn't relate to it at all. If there were actually that many people being held for up to a year it seems like there'd be an example of someone held longer than 48 hours.

[mavs>spurs]

Jail is fun! No big deal for those Americans, I'm sure they made new friends.

No different than you and your "friends" and the things y'all do outside of prison though.

[ElNono]

Ah, thank you. Upon re-reading, that seems rather thrown in there, as the rest of the article doesn't relate to it at all. If there were actually that many people being held for up to a year it seems like there'd be an example of someone held longer than 48 hours.

One person held for a year is one person too many. Especially for an agency that has zero authority to detain US citizens.

[Winehole23]

http://www.texasprisonbidness.org/immigration-detention/big-stories-2011-4-ices-detention-reforms-benefit-private-prison-corporations

[Winehole23]

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/lost-in-detention/

[boutons_deux]

http://www.texasprisonbidness.org/immigration-detention/big-stories-2011-4-ices-detention-reforms-benefit-private-prison-corporations

ICE's "Detention Reforms" Benefit Private Prison Corporations

It was AZ or NV where the PIC lobbyists pushing for severe undocumented alien crackdown/incarceration laws were big contributors to the state legislature/governor, or sumpin like that. Of course, it's the taxpayers who engorge the PIC, but you never here tea baggers bitching about it.

But Corporate-Americans are wonderful, virtuous people who should be completely unregulated and worshipped as the highest form of civilization.

[Winehole23]

http://www.wfaa.com/news/texas-news/Dallas-Teen-Is--Mistakenly-Deported--136626533.html

[Winehole23]

Mark Lyttle was deported to Mexico in 2008. Lyttle, who has a history of mental illness, gave ICE agents conflicting stories, telling them that he was a U.S. citizen and also that he was a Mexican to avoid an argument.


ICE apparently ignored records showing that he was born in North Carolina and had no relatives in Mexico. Eventually Lyttle returned to the U.S.


Earlier this year, the government admitted that another deported man named Andres Robles was a citizen.


It sent Robles a letter, with an odd offer.


The letter said the government was prepared to issue a certificate of U.S. citizenship to Robles, but said he would have to pick it up, adding that it realized it wouldn't be possible for him to do because he was deported.


The case of a Phoenix man, George Ibarra, isn't so clear-cut. He has been deported twice over the past 15 years while trying to prove his citizenship.


"I'm up against a big old juggernaut," Ibarra says. "You know, a bureaucratic juggernaut that just doesn't want to let go; you know they just keep trying to stick it to me."


Ibarra was being held in the Maricopa County Jail in Phoenix for shooting a gun into the air — in frustration, he says.


"I've been just sitting there in my house going crazy, man," Ibarra says. "My lawyer told me I can't do nothing, can't go to work till this thing's over."


Ibarra was a Marine. He has the Marine insignia — the eagle, anchor and globe — tattooed on his chest. He suffers from PTSD after being wounded in the first Gulf War. Ibarra grew up in Phoenix. What he didn't know was that his mother was born just over the border in Nogales, Mexico. That's where Ibarra was born. His mother brought him to Arizona when he was a baby; the fact that his mother has lived in the U.S. for decades, his grandfather was born in Arizona and, he says, his great-grandmother was born in California should make Ibarra eligible for what's called "derived citizenship."


"He never knew about this legal right to citizenship through his grandfather and his mother," says Luis Parra, Ibarra's lawyer. "He never knew about that."


Like many caught in ICE detention, Ibarra was ignorant of the law. The first time he was picked up, he faced nine months in the detention center in Florence, Ariz. That's when he made a mistake — when ICE said he could get out early if he voluntarily deported himself. He said yes.


"They put me on a bus and shipped me to Mexico," Ibarra says. "I was in Mexico. I was like, 'Where do I go? What do I do?' "


He turned right around with his military ID and driver's license and came back through the Nogales port of entry. Then he got into trouble with the local police again — a drug use charge. But now he had a deportation on his record, calling into question his claim to citizenship. Faced with another long stint in detention, he volunteered to be deported a second time.


"He made some mistakes, that's for sure," Parra says.


After Parra became Ibarra's lawyer, an immigration judge looked at the evidence and ruled that Ibarra does have a right to citizenship. But ICE has appealed that ruling.


"Why hasn't it stopped?" Parra asks. "Despite the fact that he's a veteran and despite the fact that he's a fourth-generation American?"
https://www.npr.org/2011/10/24/141500145/in-the-rush-to-deport-expelling-u-s-citizens

[Winehole23]

http://www.projectcensored.org/top-stories/articles/4-ice-operates-secret-detention-and-courts/

[mavs>spurs]

So what do you propose they do differently?

[Winehole23]

not detain US citizens, for starters. ICE has no authority to do so.

[mavs>spurs]

so then the police should be in charge of it, somebody has to uphold the immigration law.

[Winehole23]

Police in charge of a federal function?

Plus which, already overloaded courts and jails probably can't handle the burden. Clearly, you haven't thought this through...

[Winehole23]

lol libertarians laughing at due process violations and false imprisonment of US citizens

[mavs>spurs]

so then federal agents should be out making the arrests then? if you object to that then we'll just have to assume that you don't want the laws enforced at all and that you must in fact be mexican.

[Winehole23]

no laws enforced? that's the lame strawman you started with.

short term memory problems?

[mavs>spurs]

you're against anyone being apprehended and removed if thought to be in the country illegally, we get it.

[Winehole23]

your suggestion that no problem worthy of a solution exists only highlights your low regard for the liberty you claim to protect.

[mavs>spurs]

no i already got it prior to that post. no need to keep defending your position really.

[Winehole23]

you keep repeating yours. why shouldn't I reply?

[mavs>spurs]

newt gingrich, is that you?

[Winehole23]

Not at all. I'll probably vote for Gary Johnson. If RP runs third party I'll have to look at that seriously. He's about the first politician (at the national level) I ever agreed with halfway.