MALDEF sues to end property tax and go to income tax in Texas

[CosmicCowboy]

http://www.ksat.com/news/MALDEF-seeks-to-force-solution-to-school-finance-problems/-/478452/5538860/-/1lhpq7z/-/

A group of low-income school districts across Texas filed a lawsuit Tuesday against the state over the way it funds education.

The Mexican American Legal Defense and Education Fund (MALDEF) alleges in the lawsuit that the state's current school finance system is inequitable and puts low-income and English-learning students at a disadvantage.

Edgewood ISD here in San Antonio is one of four Texas school districts that have joined the lawsuit brought by three parents.

David Hinojosa, MALDEF's Southwest Regional Counsel, said at a news conference there is a $1,000 gap between students in low-income schools compared to those in higher income districts.

"Everyone of these kids deserves a chance to go to college if they want to. Everyone deserves a chance to earn scholarships," Hinojosa said.

Under the current school finance system, Hinojosa said Edgewood elementary students don't have the same chance to make it to college as their peers in higher income districts.

In the suit, MALDEF alleges that the state's system of using property taxes as the major source of revenue for schools creates an unfair system. Districts with higher property values are located in higher income areas and generate more revenue for their school's. Districts that are property poor, like Edgewood, generate less revenue creating the gap.

Hinojosa said even if those districts tax property owners at the maximum level of $1.17, there is still a significant gap.

Rather than forcing property-rich districts to tax owners at a lower level, MALDEF believes the answer is for the state to make up the difference. Hinojosa said the state has a variety of options to help level the playing field.

"Don't be fooled by the cuts they've been putting in, they have substantial funds in the rainy day fund, that they could use," Hinojosa said. "They could close business loopholes, they could have a soda tax. There's all sorts of different sources of revenue out there."

Without the state's help, MALDEF believes the property-poor districts will not have adequate funds to help students reach new state standards and college-readiness goals.

Hinojosa said ultimately, the long-term solution to the funding problem is for the legislature to create a more equitable system and that's what they hope to accomplish with the lawsuit.

[coyotes_geek]

Not going to happen......

[Trainwreck2100]

we were doing fine till the assholes bitched about robin hood.

[cantthinkofanything]

I don't see the point of yardmen and roofers going to college.

[boutons_deux]

TXans voted to cut property taxes back 2006 and now they bitch about JimmyRicky cutting $Bs from the school budget.

Repugs are very skilled in exploiting a gut issue like "evil taxes confiscated by evil govt" while assuming the voters are too stupid and ignorant to add 2 + 2. Works every time.

[spursncowboys]

So people who pay less for their house and taxes want someone else to bail them out who pay more for their real estate, and school? got it.

[DMX7]

So people who pay less for their house and taxes want someone else to bail them out who pay more for their real estate, and school? got it.

:whine

[coyotes_geek]

So people who pay less for their house and taxes want someone else to bail them out who pay more for their real estate, and school? got it.

More like people who live in school districts populated with cheap houses don't think their kids should have to receive a lesser education simply because the houses in their school districts don't cost as much as the houses in another school district. They've got a point.

[CosmicCowboy]

So people who pay less for their house and taxes want someone else to bail them out who pay more for their real estate, and school? got it.

We already do. The property tax revenue is sent to the state, re-split and sent back to the districts "equally".

This really isn't about education...It's about figuring out how the 48% that don't currently pay income tax can get out of paying property tax too...

[Winehole23]

what percentage of people who pay no income tax own their home? just curious.

[CosmicCowboy]

what percentage of people who pay no income tax own their home? just curious.

They live somewhere. Property tax is an item that affects rent cost as well.

[CosmicCowboy]

BTW, the whole "poor school districts have less money than rich school districts" is a lie.

In the last state report that ranked schools by performance and also by dollars spent, Northside ISD spent $7310 per student and received a 4 star rating and San Antonio ISD spent $8236 per student and got a 1 1/2 star rating.

[coyotes_geek]

We already do. The property tax revenue is sent to the state, re-split and sent back to the districts "equally".

I don't think this is entirely true. IIRC, the state siphons something off the top that goes into the big pot for redistribution, but the majority of the property tax revenue stays with the district.

[Winehole23]

They live somewhere. Property tax is an item that affects rent cost as well.in other words, that bit about evading property taxes was a petulant outburst rather than a closely reasoned point.

appreciate the clarification.

[coyotes_geek]

BTW, the whole "poor school districts have less money than rich school districts" is a lie.

In the last state report that ranked schools by performance and also by dollars spent, Northside ISD spent $7310 per student and received a 4 star rating and San Antonio ISD spent $8236 per student and got a 1 1/2 star rating.

Certainly a fair counterpoint that more $/student doesn't guarantee improved academic performance.

[CosmicCowboy]

in other words, that bit about evading property taxes was a petulant outburst rather than a closely reasoned point.

appreciate the clarification.

If they have to pay $800 a month rent instead of $700 a month rent (where the landlord makes the same profit margin when they don't have to pay property tax) then that property tax is costing them $100 a month. How is that hard to understand? The consumer always pays the tax in the end.

[DMX7]

:delete

[spursncowboys]

More like people who live in school districts populated with cheap houses don't think their kids should have to receive a lesser education simply because the houses in their school districts don't cost as much as the houses in another school district. They've got a point.

That is admirable. However I doubt their neighborhood has dramatically changed in the past five years. I doubt their school district they moved into took a noise dive since they moved in. Fact is, in the past 40 years these schools have been the same high crime, high drug, low income schools. They chose to move into these districts. They made that choice as adults. Why is it someone else's problem to fix it. Their are low income houses on the Northside and Northeast school districts. East Central and SW too. Those districts also have higher school district taxes. People make the choice to pay more for taxes so their kid goes to a better school. freedom of choice.

[spursncowboys]

what percentage of people who pay no income tax own their home? just curious.

Great point.

[Winehole23]

If they have to pay $800 a month rent instead of $700 a month rent (where the landlord makes the same profit margin when they don't have to pay property tax) then that property tax is costing them $100 a month. How is that hard to understand? The consumer always pays the tax in the end.therefore, renters are seeking to avoid property taxes

logic is fun

[CosmicCowboy]

Certainly a fair counterpoint that more $/student doesn't guarantee improved academic performance.

Unfortunately, the real difference in student performance is not low quality housing but rather low quality parents.

[spursncowboys]

I agree that alot of our schools are terrible examples to educate our future kids. I think we should have a voucher system. Let the kids go to a school that they think will help them advance better. However I don't think making all schools mediocre is a better answer-logically or morally.

[CosmicCowboy]

therefore, renters are seeking to avoid property taxes

logic is fun

c'mon Winehole. You are smarter than that. Renters pay the property tax. They just don't write the check to Sylvia Romo.

[Winehole23]

you stand by the accuracy of your remark. love the tenacity, but sometimes it serves you ill.

[Blake]

I've never liked the idea of property taxes going to school districts.

Taxing income to pay for public education makes too much more sense?

[CosmicCowboy]

I've never liked the idea of property taxes going to school districts.

Taxing income to pay for public education makes too much more sense?

Why? Just so the 48% that already don't pay income tax won't have to pay anything for their kids education too?

[Winehole23]

what are we to do with all these spongers and layabouts of dubious social worth?

[Winehole23]

educating them is just an encouragement to further indigence. something for nothing.

[Wild Cobra]

Oregon switched from the property tax system to the general fund many years ago. On the positive side, schools are ore equally funded. On the negative side, it creates more six figure jobs for useless government bureaucrats controlling the money. Extra initiatives are still placed on local ballots for approval of property tax paid issues.

Still...

More money does not solve the education problems. Oregon is a model to show that. We are likely at more than $14k per student, and no better than the rest of the nation. Worse if I recall, but haven't looked at the numbers for some time.

[CosmicCowboy]

what are we to do with all these spongers and layabouts of dubious social worth?

If it was up to me I would give them a cash bonus and a bus ride to California.

Oh...You were being sarcastic?

[CosmicCowboy]

educating them is just an encouragement to further indigence. something for nothing.

Apparently so...the results speak for themselves...

[Blake]

Why? Just so the 48% that already don't pay income tax won't have to pay anything for their kids education too?

Seems to me that our society as a whole can move forward a little better if the richers help subsidize more school districts than just the one(s) they own property in.

[CosmicCowboy]

Seems to me that our society as a whole can move forward a little better if the richers help subsidize more school districts than just the one(s) they own property in.

They already do, dummy. A little out of touch, are we?

[Winehole23]

pay them to go away?

I presume there would be an agency to determine who is worthy to receive services from the State of Texas and hence, who is eligible for a resettlement bonus.

[CosmicCowboy]

For your education, Blake.

A capsule summary of school finance in Texas...

http://www.pisd.edu/news/advocacy/robin.hood.shtml

[johnsmith]

therefore, renters are seeking to avoid property taxes

logic is fun

So you think renters are avoiding property taxes?

[johnsmith]

really?

[clambake]

If it was up to me I would give them a cash bonus and a bus ride to California.

Oh...You were being sarcastic?

you said everybody from cali was moving to texas.

you want them to spend the bonus on a ride back home?

[CosmicCowboy]

pay them to go away?

I presume there would be an agency to determine who is worthy to receive services from the State of Texas and hence, who is eligible for a resettlement bonus.

Meh...do it just like corporations do employment buyouts...

Lets say it's gonna cost us $20,000 over the next three years to take care of them...lets offer them $8000 cash to move to California where they can get better benefits...and don't ever apply for benefits in Texas again...

[Winehole23]

They already do, dummy. A little out of touch, are we?Edgewood is important but it's old news. Maybe you can cut Blake a little slack. he's not a current events whiz like you.

http://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/jre02

[Winehole23]

So you think renters are avoiding property taxes?no, I don't. i was clowning on CC.

[johnsmith]

noted.......and angry at myself for not detecting any sarcasm.

[Winehole23]

Meh...do it just like corporations do employment buyouts...

Lets say it's gonna cost us $20,000 over the next three years to take care of them...lets offer them $8000 cash to move to California where they can get better benefits...and don't ever apply for benefits in Texas again...someone would have to generate the list of eligibles...would you consider doing it?

[johnsmith]

Meh, who am I kidding? I'm fine with not detecting it.

[Winehole23]

:tu

[CosmicCowboy]

someone would have to generate the list of eligibles...would you consider doing it?

Sure...

start with everyone that has a lonestar card that has been in Texas for at least 5 years.

[johnsmith]

Sure...

start with everyone that has a lonestar card.

I know some people with a lonestar card. She doesn't report her income, and he does just fine......they have 4 kids between them.....they threw a "block party" on their street in Stone Oak and bought crab legs, crawfish, and everything else you'd need to throw a good 'boil' together....

I honestly considered turning them in......

I fucking hate the lonestar card.

[johnsmith]

I realize this has nothing to do with the thread.....I just remembered though how much I hate the lonestar card and those that abuse it.

[johnsmith]

Carry on.

[Winehole23]

if you qualify for services based on financial need, you need to leave the state of Texas.

[CosmicCowboy]

if you qualify for services based on financial need, you need to go. bright line.

Absolutely. We would have the lowest poverty level and the best educated population in the country.

And you realize we wouldn't be throwing them out, right? We would just be giving them cash bribes to leave with the agreement they can't come back. Big difference.

[johnsmith]

if you qualify for services based on financial need, you need to leave the state of Texas. We don't allow no spongers.

Or we could send them to Wyoming.....you ever been there? It's a real shit hole.

[Winehole23]

Absolutely. We would have the lowest poverty level and the best educated population in the country.

And you realize we wouldn't be throwing them out, right? We would just be giving them cash bribes to leave with the agreement they can't come back. Big difference.So simple.

But why so impossible to do?

[CosmicCowboy]

:lmao...I knew you guys would love this plan...

[CosmicCowboy]

So simple.

But why so impossible to do?

Why is it impossible?

[johnsmith]

CC rules with an iron fist of compassion.....

I like it.

[Winehole23]

Or we could send them to Wyoming.....you ever been there? It's a real shit hole.Nope. Heard it's lovely. Where did you go?

[johnsmith]

Nope. Heard it's lovely. Where did you go?

Spend some time in southwestern Wyoming and tell me if you think it's lovely.

There are some parts that don't absolutely suck, but if you want to enjoy the outdoors in that area of the country, go to Montana, Idaho, Washington, Oregon.....any of those states blows away Wyoming.

[johnsmith]

Oops, I meant Southeastern Wyoming....that's where it really blows.

[johnsmith]

Southwest isn't so bad actually.

[johnsmith]

I would imagine that sw wyoming is where they'd run their "freeloader" new gov't from.

[Winehole23]

:lmao...I knew you guys would love this plan...I don't think you'd know what to do without all the worthless people on public relief to chastise and scold. Your post count could seriously suffer.

[johnsmith]

I don't think you'd know what to do without all the worthless people on public relief to chastise and scold. Your post count could seriously suffer.

I disagree....we could always switch topics to federal gun control laws.

[Winehole23]

true. comment was aimed at CC.

[johnsmith]

true. comment was aimed at CC, not meant broadly.

No, I got it....my comment was aimed at CC as well.....

[CosmicCowboy]

:lol

Oh there would still be LOTS of good stuff to argue about...

[Winehole23]

i don't doubt it. until then, you're a broken record more or less.

[CosmicCowboy]

Oh you wound me deeply...

[Winehole23]

you being brutally frank about your true political feelings is more than enough for me

[George Gervin's Afro]

so the moral of the story is that the GOP plan to fund schools failed...

[Winehole23]

I would imagine that sw wyoming is where they'd run their "freeloader" new gov't from.CC specified California. i'd think a freeloader republic would go over pretty well there. it's already their tacit philosophy.

[CosmicCowboy]

you being brutally frank about your true political feelings is more than enough for me

Seriously...why wouldn't my plan be a win/win for all involved? The welfare recipient gets a big windfall of cash and a chance to start over in a more "compassionate" state...and we don't have to support them the rest of their lives...

[CosmicCowboy]

CC specified California. i'd think a freeloader republic would go over pretty well there. it's already their tacit philosophy.

Yeah...kind of like a dog. If you are gonna dump them you want to get them far enough from home that they can't find their way back...:lol

[Winehole23]

Seriously? Nope.

[Blake]

They already do, dummy. A little out of touch, are we?

So you are saying all districts are equally funded?

[CosmicCowboy]

So you are saying all districts are equally funded?

Pretty much, yes. Since 1995.

Now if you want to make the case that the poorer districts need more money because they have shittier students feel free to proceed...

[Blake]

Pretty much, yes. Since 1995.

Now if you want to make the case that the poorer districts need more money because they have shittier students feel free to proceed...

so you are saying that these property-poor districts are suing because they actually want more money than what is being given to the property-rich district?

[DMX7]

David Hinojosa, MALDEF's Southwest Regional Counsel, said at a news conference there is a $1,000 gap between students in low-income schools compared to those in higher income districts.


Where did they get this number from?

[CosmicCowboy]

Where did they get this number from?

He's lying. The state of Texas tracks it by school district. He says it and idiots like you believe it.

[CosmicCowboy]

so you are saying that these property-poor districts are suing because they actually want more money than what is being given to the property-rich district?

No, I'm saying they are suing because they want to completely invalidate property taxes in Texas and have the courts force us to go to an income tax.

[DMX7]

He's lying. The state of Texas tracks it by school district. He says it and idiots like you believe it.

I didn't say I believe it. I want to know where he got that number from. I thought because you seem pretty interested in this subject that you might at least have a clue to where the central claim he's making came from.

[coyotes_geek]

Where did they get this number from?

Probably just cherry-picking some districts and just comparing those.

For anyone with the motivation, there's plenty of data available here:

http://www.fastexas.org/

School district financial data for the San Antonio area:

https://ourcpa.cpa.state.tx.us/fast/rpttool/districtFinancial.do

[coyotes_geek]

After digging into some numbers, it sure looks like there isn't any set trend that says school districts serving low income areas are systematically spending less per student than districts serving high income areas. Seems like you can just as easily find a "poor" district outspending a "rich" one as you can a "rich" one outspending a "poor" one.

[CosmicCowboy]

After digging into some numbers, it sure looks like there isn't any set trend that says school districts serving low income areas are systematically spending less per student than districts serving high income areas. Seems like you can just as easily find a "poor" district outspending a "rich" one as you can a "rich" one outspending a "poor" one.

Exactly what I was trying to tell these guys...I had done the research previously...

[coyotes_geek]

Edgewood ISD here in San Antonio is one of four Texas school districts that have joined the lawsuit brought by three parents.

David Hinojosa, MALDEF's Southwest Regional Counsel, said at a news conference there is a $1,000 gap between students in low-income schools compared to those in higher income districts.

"Everyone of these kids deserves a chance to go to college if they want to. Everyone deserves a chance to earn scholarships," Hinojosa said.

Under the current school finance system, Hinojosa said Edgewood elementary students don't have the same chance to make it to college as their peers in higher income districts.

Spending per student (source) (https://ourcpa.cpa.state.tx.us/fast/rpttool/districtFinancial.do)

Edgewood ISD: $8,758

Alamo Heights: $8,864
Northside: $7,605
Northeast: $8,105

Picking Edgewood to be part of the lawsuit doesn't appear to support MALDEF's position here.

[DMX7]

That's why I was asking where that number came from. I was going through that database earlier today and didn't see anything remarkable.

You can even go by high school and compare ACT/SAT scores.

[MannyIsGod]

More like people who live in school districts populated with cheap houses don't think their kids should have to receive a lesser education simply because the houses in their school districts don't cost as much as the houses in another school district. They've got a point.

:toast:toast:toast:toast:toast:toast:toast:toast:t oast:toast:toast:toast:toast:toast:toast:toast:toa st:toast:toast:toast

[CosmicCowboy]

:toast:toast:toast:toast:toast:toast:toast:toast:t oast:toast:toast:toast:toast:toast:toast:toast:toa st:toast:toast:toast

But Manny...

They are getting the same amount of money...

Why aren't their kids getting an equal education?

maybe because education isn't something you can just deposit in kids like the state deposits money in the "poor" districts bank accounts?

[Blake]

Spending per student (source) (https://ourcpa.cpa.state.tx.us/fast/rpttool/districtFinancial.do)

Edgewood ISD: $8,758

Alamo Heights: $8,864
Northside: $7,605
Northeast: $8,105

Picking Edgewood to be part of the lawsuit doesn't appear to support MALDEF's position here.

Edgewood also spends less per teacher.


Teachers with 1-5 Years of Experience Average Salary -

Edgewood ISD (Bexar County) $46,360

Northside ISD (Bexar County) $47,513
North East ISD $48,950
Alamo Heights ISD $49,760



My ex did some observation at Brentwood Middle School during one ofher education classes. I took her on Sunday before to show her how to get there.

It looked like a dump. I recall at least 3 broken classroom windows. The A/C was out for a week during her time there.

Could very well be that they spend the same amount of dollars a year as anyone else.

Could also very well be that they need more than anyone else just to maintain what some of us would consider normalcy.

[CosmicCowboy]

Edgewood also spends less per teacher.


Teachers with 1-5 Years of Experience Average Salary -

Edgewood ISD (Bexar County) $46,360

Northside ISD (Bexar County) $47,513
North East ISD $48,950
Alamo Heights ISD $49,760



My ex did some observation at Brentwood Middle School during one ofher education classes. I took her on Sunday before to show her how to get there.

It looked like a dump. I recall at least 3 broken classroom windows. The A/C was out for a week during her time there.

Could very well be that they spend the same amount of dollars a year as anyone else.

Could also very well be that they need more than anyone else just to maintain what some of us would consider normalcy.

Money is not the answer. There really isn't a good answer.

It sucks but thats the reality.

Uninvolved parents breed uninvolved students.

ALL the school districts can deliver a decent education to students that want to learn.

[DMX7]

Money is not the answer. There really isn't a good answer.

It sucks but thats the reality.

Uninvolved parents breed uninvolved students.

ALL the school districts can deliver a decent education to students that want to learn.

More like money alone is not the answer.

[spursncowboys]

Money is not the answer. There really isn't a good answer.

It sucks but thats the reality.

Uninvolved parents breed uninvolved students.

ALL the school districts can deliver a decent education to students that want to learn.

The Freakonomics books came to that conclusion. If a kid is doing better from a "good" school than a kid in a "bad" school, instead of the school being the reason. They hypothesized that it was probably more to do with parents being more involved in their kids education (looking for a "good" school before they move into the area). Same for the fact that houses with books in the house have kids who test higher. The books aren't the answer but rather the fact that the parents statistically take a larger stake of reading.

[spursncowboys]

So we are all in agreement that we should have a voucher system?

[DMX7]

So we are all in agreement that we should have a voucher system?

No.

[Blake]

Money is not the answer. There really isn't a good answer.

It sucks but thats the reality.

Uninvolved parents breed uninvolved students.

ALL the school districts can deliver a decent education to students that want to learn.

I'd agree that simply handing schools more money solves nothing.

Imo, start cutting out 11th and 12th grades for those that have no desire to be there.

More trade schools as well....

[Blake]

So we are all in agreement that we should have a voucher system?

no

[Winehole23]

Why is it impossible?You don't see where there might be a political problem with offering a resettlement bonus to everyone on the dole?

[Winehole23]

If you're poor or you're just unfortunate and need help, Texas doesn't want you.

Go away.

[Winehole23]

Texas is for winners. you, sir or madam, are a welfare recipient and ipso facto, a loser.

[Winehole23]

here are some brochures on SW Wyoming

[Winehole23]

(they're really eager for new blood, I've heard. if any more residents leave, they might be in danger of losing their US Rep..)

[Nbadan]

More like money alone is not the answer.

Money alone isn't the answer, but its a good start. Teachers in poorer districts should get a supplement just for all the shit they have to buy to do their jobs right, like buy paper and pencils. What other business makes you buy your own supplies to do their business....but don't rob from peter to give to paul, all districts deserve to be properly funded..

As far as the kids who don't want to be in a regular school, I also advocate a trade or vocational school. Many trades make way more than someone with a bachelor degree...teach them a trade and if they decide to go to college later at least they will have a skill to earn money...plus it makes teaching much more effective because you have students who actually want to be there..

Step number one....get rid of No child left behind...

[Wild Cobra]

Money is not the answer to achieve better grades in students. It starts in the community and home life. If kids are already disinterested in learning when thy start schooling, why is it the schools responsibility to burn more money on them?

[boutons_deux]

This is one experiment where we'll see if paying middle-school teacher $125K gets better results. But there are of course many other variables, like self-selected parents who emphasize school work and education sending their kids to TEP.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/07/nyregion/07charter.html?pagewanted=all

http://www.tepcharter.org/philosophy.php

How to improve schools is quite well known, eg the Finnish example, but inertia is extremely hard to overcome. The Repugs attacking schools is part of their strategy to get corps involved in privatizing public education, not to get better educated kids, but to make money, exactly like shit for-profit jokes like Phoenix, etc.