Views on America from an outsider

[Bill_Brasky]

People in The Netherlands have always looked up to the USA. It won't be long before that stops, I guess. These are stories I read, watched and heard in the mainstream media over here:
-your political system is one of the most corrupt systems in the world
-your politicians represent companies instead of people
-your government will probably censor the internet
-your government detains without trial
-your government tortures people
-your government hires mercenaries
-your government does nothing to improve education
-your president doesn't have any real influence over what happens
-your presidential candidates are stupid beyond belief
-your presidential candidates promote stupidity
-your presidential candidates are not taken seriously over here
-your elections are a joke
-your media outlets cannot be trusted
-your media outlets focus on distractions instead of main issues
-your people are fucked when they're uninsured
-your infrastructure is collapsing
-your economy will soon be top 3 instead of #1
-your economy will probably collapse a second time

So it's not only Reddit or The Daily Show that is covering these issues. Other countries are watching and passing the popcorn while your country is collapsing. And I think it will get worse, not better. I am 29 years old and looking back at the world's history I don't think the problems above will be solved during my lifetime. It will probably have to get a lot worse before a movement arises that's big enough to demand real change. Now you'll probably read this, take one small point out of my story and comment on that. That's okay, but please notice the trend of what's going on in your country. Do something about it. We need our big brother to act like role model. Right now he's high as a kite.

[scott]

So, like I said... I think you've got good points here. Hard to argue with any of them.

[Nbadan]

You forgot we indiscriminately destroy the environment

[boutons_deux]

USA news is nearly daily on European new shows and channels. They know HTF USA corporatocracy/plutocracy is screwing up the USA and the planet. The USA is an object of derision and ridicule.

[Nbadan]

People feel a state of helplessness here....they feel powerless to fix anything.

They are that beaten down abused wife

[Yonivore]

So, like I said... I think you've got good points here. Hard to argue with any of them.
That's what a liberal bias in the press with get you, scott. Ignorant foreigners.

And, Dan, we're the most environmentally conscious -- and cleanest -- major industrial power in the world. We've come a long way from the burning rivers and unfishable lakes.

[scott]

That's what a liberal bias in the press with get you, scott. Ignorant foreigners.

And, Dan, we're the most environmentally conscious -- and cleanest -- major industrial power in the world. We've come a long way from the burning rivers and unfishable lakes.

Which of these points do you take issue with:


-your political system is one of the most corrupt systems in the world
-your politicians represent companies instead of people
-your government will probably censor the internet
-your government detains without trial
-your government tortures people
-your government hires mercenaries
-your government does nothing to improve education
-your president doesn't have any real influence over what happens
-your presidential candidates are stupid beyond belief
-your presidential candidates promote stupidity
-your presidential candidates are not taken seriously over here
-your elections are a joke
-your media outlets cannot be trusted
-your media outlets focus on distractions instead of main issues

The only one I disagree with is the first, but only in the sense that our corrupt political system is no where near being one of the most corrupt in the world. It is far more corrupt than it should be though.

[Bill_Brasky]

That's what a liberal bias in the press with get you, scott. Ignorant foreigners.

And, Dan, we're the most environmentally conscious -- and cleanest -- major industrial power in the world. We've come a long way from the burning rivers and unfishable lakes.

.....and in walks a prime example of our shitty educational system.

[baseline bum]

The only one I disagree with is the first, but only in the sense that our corrupt political system is no where near being one of the most corrupt in the world. It is far more corrupt than it should be though.

It will get there though.

[Yonivore]

.....and in walks a prime example of our shitty educational system.
Okay, Bill, give me an example of our "indiscriminate environmental destruction."

[Yonivore]

It will get there though.
Attorney General Holder is actively working on this.

[scott]

Okay, Bill, give me an example of our "indiscriminate environmental destruction."

Didn't see that one in Bill's original list.

[Yonivore]

Didn't see that one in Bill's original list.
You're right, I should have ask Dan. My bad.

So, Bill, on the matter of internet censorship, can a Dutch blogger be arrested for hate speech if they say something unsavory about the Muslim religion?

[Bill_Brasky]

Okay, Bill, give me an example of our "indiscriminate environmental destruction."

Where the fuck did I ever say anything about that?

[Yonivore]

Where the fuck did I ever say anything about that?
My apologies, I should have directed that at Nbadan but, for the record, how do you feel about our record on the environment.

[Bill_Brasky]

You're right, I should have ask Dan. My bad.

So, Bill, on the matter of internet censorship, can a Dutch blogger be arrested for hate speech if they say something unsavory about the Muslim religion?

SOPA & PIPA will give the goverment the right to shut down youtube if one single user posts copyrighted material.

[ChuckD]

That's what a liberal bias in the press with get you, scott. Ignorant foreigners.

And, Dan, we're the most environmentally conscious -- and cleanest -- major industrial power in the world. We've come a long way from the burning rivers and unfishable lakes.

You can thank successive Democratic congresses decades ago enacting strict regulations for that. They are now being systematically undone, and if we're not back to the burning rivers and unfishable lakes, well, give it time and a few more GOP adminstrations and congresses.

[Yonivore]

SOPA & PIPA will give the goverment the right to shut down youtube if one single user posts copyrighted material.
If they pass and there's no guarantee that will happen. In fact, I doubt they will. Freedom from prior restraint of our free speech rights, while taking a beating from time to time, have survived thus far.

But, currently, you can be prosecuted in The Netherlands for saying something the Dutch have determined to be "hate speech."

[Yonivore]

You can thank successive Democratic congresses decades ago enacting strict regulations for that.
Nixon's EPA stopped the burning rivers and unpolluted the lakes a long time ago. And, CAFE standards, supported by both sides of the aisle have made cars so clean they're almost improving air quality -- if, as the next sentence demonstrates, the EPA hadn't gone silly.

Everything since we actually cleaned up the pollution has been some socialist redistributionist scheme that has culminated in the EPA declaring my exhalation a pollutant.

[Winehole23]

Prior restraint of our free speech rights, while taking a beating from time to time, have survived thus far.http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20111208/08225217010/breaking-news-feds-falsely-censor-popular-blog-over-year-deny-all-due-process-hide-all-details.shtml

[ElNono]

There are no problems.... it's all media bias!

[Bill_Brasky]

If they pass and there's no guarantee that will happen. In fact, I doubt they will. Freedom from prior restraint of our free speech rights, while taking a beating from time to time, have survived thus far.

But, currently, you can be prosecuted in The Netherlands for saying something the Dutch have determined to be "hate speech."

No, you can't. Quit posting bullshit dude.

http://momentmagazine.wordpress.com/2011/06/28/hate-speech-in-the-netherlands/

[Yonivore]

No, you can't. Quit posting bullshit dude.

http://momentmagazine.wordpress.com/2011/06/28/hate-speech-in-the-netherlands/
He was prosecuted and, being acquitted, doesn't mean The Netherlands don't have criminal laws against "hate speech."

From the article you posted.


It is deeply disheartening that in the Netherlands, where it is illegal to deny the Holocaust and where there are strict laws on hate speech,...
Is or is not that statement true?

and does, or does not, an acquittal directly support my assertion you can be prosecuted for "hate crimes" for saying something bad about Muslims?

[Bill_Brasky]

He was prosecuted and, being acquitted, doesn't mean The Netherlands don't have criminal laws against "hate speech."

From the article you posted.


Is or is not that statement true?

and does, or does not, an acquittal directly support my assertion you can be prosecuted for "hate crimes" for saying something bad about Muslims?

The judge threw the case out because apparently judges over there have some common sense.

Either way this isnt a thread about the Dutch.

[Yonivore]

The judge threw the case out because apparently judges over there have some common sense.

Either way this isnt a thread about the Dutch.
Maybe it should be since you're the Dutch pot criticizing the American kettle.

[scott]

Maybe it should be since you're the Dutch pot criticizing the American kettle.

Pot calling kettle black doesn't take away from the kettle being black.

[Yonivore]

Pot calling kettle black doesn't take away from the kettle being black.
I didn't say anything abut color. In fact, I pointed out his fear about American intentions was a reality in The Netherlands so, in that respect, I'd say his pot is a much darker shade in the grayscale than America's.

[scott]

I didn't say anything abut color. In fact, I pointed out his fear about American intentions was a reality in The Netherlands so, in that respect, I'd say his pot is a much darker shade in the grayscale than America's.

Which still does nothing to discredit his post.

[scott]

Deflection: debate method of choice when all else fails

[Bill_Brasky]

Maybe it should be since you're the Dutch pot criticizing the American kettle.

I'm clearly American, and the post was clearly a copy/paste. Another fail by you.

I'm honestly seriously considering moving abroad though the way things are turning to complete shit in this country. Better get out before the government closes the borders under the guise of "stopping terrorism".

[Yonivore]

I'm clearly American, and the post was clearly a copy/paste. Another fail by you.
How so?

Opening post with a subject line "Views on America from an outsider?"


I'm honestly seriously considering moving abroad though the way things are turning to complete shit in this country. Better get out before the government closes the borders under the guise of "stopping terrorism".
Good luck.

[Yonivore]

Which still does nothing to discredit his post.
Nor does it validate his post. It merely makes him a dick that regurgitates anti-American talking points under the guise of being forwarded by an enlightened Dutch person.

On the one point, (and to be sure, similar arguments could be made about the rest of the points in the post -- because they've been argued ad nauseum in this forum), but, on the point of censorship, the Dutch clearly practice it while America does not.

When it happens, we can talk.

[ElNono]

^ if you admit it doesn't discredit nor validates it, why are you posting?

[Yonivore]

Deflection: debate method of choice when all else fails
Who's deflecting. Every one of those points has been argued in this forum...I was merely pointing out the irony of preaching on censorship from a Dutch perspective.

[Yonivore]

^ if you admit it doesn't discredit nor validates it, why are you posting?
Because, nearly every point is wrong or grossly exaggerated. I felt compelled to respond.

[ElNono]

You really showed him... especially the part where you really couldn't come up with any arguments to discredit the post.

[ElNono]

Because, nearly every point is wrong or grossly exaggerated. I felt compelled to respond.

But you already admitted you can't discredit the post. So you were wrong then or you are wrong now. Pick a lane and try to stick to it.

[scott]

Because, nearly every point is wrong or grossly exaggerated. I felt compelled to respond.

And yet you didn't respond on those grounds and instead choose to respond with something that neither credits or discredits the issues. That's effective.

[Bill_Brasky]

Nor does it validate his post. It merely makes him a dick that regurgitates anti-American talking points under the guise of being forwarded by an enlightened Dutch person.

On the one point, (and to be sure, similar arguments could be made about the rest of the points in the post -- because they've been argued ad nauseum in this forum), but, on the point of censorship, the Dutch clearly practice it while America does not.

When it happens, we can talk.


:lmao you can't discredit the original post so you make retarded statements that don't apply to the topic at hand at all.

Yup, because I find problems with the government and don't particularly agree with the current practices in Washington, and want people to realize it and try to change things for the better, I'm anti-American. Douche.

[ElNono]

Another epic fail by Yoni. Because the Dutch aren't flawless, they have no right to criticize alleged American flaws!

[Agloco]

:lol

[Yonivore]

And yet you didn't respond on those grounds and instead choose to respond with something that neither credits or discredits the issues. That's effective.
Because it was a litany of garbage that has been argued to death in this forum and, I thought it was ironic that someone in a land that practices censorship would be concerned with one that doesn't.

Our first amendment rights have been under assault for quite some time. It's nothing new. So far, the Constitution has prevailed. I expect it will again.

[Yonivore]

:lmao you can't discredit the original post so you make retarded statements that don't apply to the topic at hand at all.

Yup, because I find problems with the government and don't particularly agree with the current practices in Washington, and want people to realize it and try to change things for the better, I'm anti-American. Douche.
Except the list you vomited in here is not even close to be an accurate representation of what's going on in America.

[Bill_Brasky]

Except the list you vomited in here is not even close to be an accurate representation of what's going on in America.

Actually, it is.

[Stringer_Bell]

I'm currently in the Netherlands, and they generally do not give a fuck about America tbqh - although they don't like how their government always seems to want to please America. Like the rest of Europe, they think we're selfish, fat, and don't value education or healthcare...that's not something you can blame on Obama or Bush or anyone else because that's on us. It's not exactly inaccurate - we've really let ourselves down. The Dutch mostly stay true to the whole "do whatever you want, just don't let it affect me"...but that doesn't mean they don't laugh at our Treasury Sec when he's on Dutch TV saying he has faith the Euro Plan will work - cuz we've got no room to comment on their shit just like we wouldn't like them commenting on our shit. But we do comment, and they comment too, so it's whatever - let's just enjoy a kroket and a Heineken and call it squared.

[baseline bum]

I'm honestly seriously considering moving abroad though the way things are turning to complete shit in this country. Better get out before the government closes the borders under the guise of "stopping terrorism".

As shitty as a lot of things in this country are, I don't think I could stomach the thought of not being able to go to all the great national parks west of the Pecos nor see NBA games, so I'll go down with the ship here in the USA.

[baseline bum]

I'm currently in the Netherlands, and they generally do not give a fuck about America tbqh - although they don't like how their government always seems to want to please America. Like the rest of Europe, they think we're selfish, fat, and don't value education or healthcare...that's not something you can blame on Obama or Bush or anyone else because that's on us. It's not exactly inaccurate - we've really let ourselves down. The Dutch mostly stay true to the whole "do whatever you want, just don't let it affect me"...but that doesn't mean they don't laugh at our Treasury Sec when he's on Dutch TV saying he has faith the Euro Plan will work - cuz we've got no room to comment on their shit just like we wouldn't like them commenting on our shit. But we do comment, and they comment too, so it's whatever - let's just enjoy a kroket and a Heineken and call it squared.

Heineken is one tough beer to enjoy tbh. Priced like a good beer, I guess to support their advertising budget?

[Yonivore]

I'm currently in the Netherlands, and they generally do not give a fuck about America tbqh - although they don't like how their government always seems to want to please America.
I don't know what the numbers are but, it's probably because we "invest" a lot of money in The Netherlands.


Like the rest of Europe, they think we're selfish, fat, and don't value education or healthcare...that's not something you can blame on Obama or Bush or anyone else because that's on us. It's not exactly inaccurate - we've really let ourselves down. The Dutch mostly stay true to the whole "do whatever you want, just don't let it affect me"...but that doesn't mean they don't laugh at our Treasury Sec when he's on Dutch TV saying he has faith the Euro Plan will work - cuz we've got no room to comment on their shit just like we wouldn't like them commenting on our shit. But we do comment, and they comment too, so it's whatever - let's just enjoy a kroket and a Heineken and call it squared.
And yet, we're still the greatest force for good and the most benevolent country the world has ever known.

[Bill_Brasky]

I'm currently in the Netherlands, and they generally do not give a fuck about America tbqh - although they don't like how their government always seems to want to please America. Like the rest of Europe, they think we're selfish, fat, and don't value education or healthcare...that's not something you can blame on Obama or Bush or anyone else because that's on us. It's not exactly inaccurate - we've really let ourselves down. The Dutch mostly stay true to the whole "do whatever you want, just don't let it affect me"...but that doesn't mean they don't laugh at our Treasury Sec when he's on Dutch TV saying he has faith the Euro Plan will work - cuz we've got no room to comment on their shit just like we wouldn't like them commenting on our shit. But we do comment, and they comment too, so it's whatever - let's just enjoy a kroket and a Heineken and call it squared.

I just don't understand justifying spending trillions on wars but being so opposed to healthcare for your own fucking citizens.

Imperialism broke the English, Dutch, and Germans. Imperialism(Afghanistan in particular) broke the Russians. It is going to break us too.

[Bill_Brasky]

i don't know what the numbers are but, it's probably because we "invest" a lot of money in the netherlands.


And yet, we're still the greatest force for good and the most benevolent country the world has ever known.

k.

[scott]

And yet, we're still the greatest force for good and the most benevolent country the world has ever known.

And yet, that's still not the point.

[scott]

Relativity: letting folks off the hook for suckiness since the advent of humanity.

[ElNono]

The only one I disagree with is the first, but only in the sense that our corrupt political system is no where near being one of the most corrupt in the world. It is far more corrupt than it should be though.

Agreed.

[Stringer_Bell]

Heineken is one tough beer to enjoy tbh. Priced like a good beer, I guess to support their advertising budget?

They have some amazing commercials over here, so that might be true. It's delicious, but I can dig that it's not for everyone.

[Yonivore]

I just don't understand justifying spending trillions on wars but being so opposed to healthcare for your own fucking citizens.
If we didn't spend money on Defense, The Dutch -- and the rest of Europe -- would be either German or Russian.

Healthcare is expensive in America because of regulation not because of greedy private enterprise.


Imperialism broke the English, Dutch, and Germans. Imperialism(Afghanistan in particular) broke the Russians. It is going to break us too.
The costs of Welfare dwarf what we spend on the military...and, we've yet to try and plant a flag in any of those countries.

[Bill_Brasky]

if we didn't spend money on defense, the dutch -- and the rest of europe -- would be either german or russian.

Healthcare is expensive in america because of regulation not because of greedy private enterprise.


The costs of welfare dwarf what we spend on the military...and, we've yet to try and plant a flag in any of those countries.

k.

[scott]

Heineken is one tough beer to enjoy tbh. Priced like a good beer, I guess to support their advertising budget?

It's actually not too bad when it hasn't sat on a boat for months in green bottles getting skunky.

I drank a fair share of Heinie's last time I was in A-Dam, and they make a few brands that don't make it over here that are pretty tasty.

[ElNono]

I liked the media bias angle more, tbh. It was a stronger weak argument.

[Stringer_Bell]

And yet, we're still the greatest force for good and the most benevolent country the world has ever known.

Agreed, but it's quite apparent that it isn't balancing out with the bullshit we're doing to each other and other countries.

edit - don't agree with the benevolent part, we're not a fucking charity.

[boutons_deux]

If we didn't spend money on Defense, The Dutch -- and the rest of Europe -- would be either German or Russian.

.. which America a free pass to act like an asshole, fuck up the planet, sell toxic crap to the EU banks, etc, etc.


Healthcare is expensive in America because of regulation not because of greedy private enterprise.

You Fucking Lie. the docs, insurance, hospitals priority is to suck $Ts out the Human-Americans pockets, health is a secondary concern.

[Bill_Brasky]

:lmao people paying less in other countries for uni healthcare via taxes than we do to health insurance companies.

[The Reckoning]

imo europe has all the solutions! look at how well oiled the EU is.

[boutons_deux]

"europe has all the solutions!"

you said that, you prove it. All countries have problems, USA has Ayn-Randized itself into a sociopathic, inhumanitarian shithole, where people die for want of money.

For social safety net and healthcare and energy/oil efficiency, the other industrial countries are way ahead of USA.

[ElNono]

imo europe has all the solutions!

What solutions?

[DarrinS]

Without my grandfather's generation of Americans, you would be speaking German in the Netherlands.

You're welcome.

Now, GFY!

[ElNono]

Without your euro great-great-great-great-great-great-great grandfather there would be no America.

[Bill_Brasky]

Without my grandfather's generation of Americans, you would be speaking German in the Netherlands.

You're welcome.

Now, GFY!

Shut up, retard. I'm American and both grandpa's fought, one has a distinguished flying cross. That has nothing to do with the topic at hand anyway.

[baseline bum]

Imperialism broke the English, Dutch, and Germans. Imperialism(Afghanistan in particular) broke the Russians. It is going to break us too.

I don't think it will, because the United States still has an enormous amount of energy reserves in coal and natural gas. The country may be going to hell for the people, but I'm confident it will remain strong for the real voters for a long time based on that.

[rascal]

That's what a liberal bias in the press with get you, scott. Ignorant foreigners.

And, Dan, we're the most environmentally conscious -- and cleanest -- major industrial power in the world. We've come a long way from the burning rivers and unfishable lakes.

The ignorant ones are people like you.

[rascal]

Okay, Bill, give me an example of our "indiscriminate environmental destruction."

Oil Spill in the Gulf.

[balli]

Maybe it should be since you're the Dutch pot criticizing the American kettle.

This shit was on the front page of reddit for like the past 24 hours. This dude's not dutch. Just some fuck with a copy and paste habit.

[TeyshaBlue]

'sup balli? Been awhile.

[baseline bum]

It's actually not too bad when it hasn't sat on a boat for months in green bottles getting skunky.

I drank a fair share of Heinie's last time I was in A-Dam, and they make a few brands that don't make it over here that are pretty tasty.

All beers taste better in the red zone with a hooker rubbing you through your pants though. You sure they'd still be good in boring old America?

[Bartleby]

'sup balli? Been awhile.

No kidding. I thought he had bailed.

[Stringer_Bell]

Without my grandfather's generation of Americans, you would be speaking German in the Netherlands.

You're welcome.

Now, GFY!

Actually, the Canadians were fighting in WW2 long before US intervention - and were actually the ones to liberate the Netherlands. Dutch and German are quite similar languages, I think the Dutch would have complained more if they had to speak French Canadian.