You can see why they made the trade now

[GSH]

I'm sure he will have his rookie moments, but that was pretty good production from the rookie in just 13 minutes of play. He's a different kind of player than George Hill. Not taking anything away from Hill, but that's what we needed. Hope he can keep it up.

Kawhi Leonard (tonight)
13:33
6 Points
6 Reb
1 Assist
2 Steals
1 TO

George Hill (tonight)
24:24 minutes
4 Points
4 Assists
2 Steals
1 Reb
1 TO

[Manu-of-steel]

Yep. What we have seen so far from Leonard is that he has a nose for the ball. Keep it up, Kawhi!

[BoricuaCJA]

Leonard did very well in rebounding and defense. He just needs to improve on offense. He missed some easy ones from what I saw on the feed.

[lefty]

Yep. What we have seen so far from Leonard is that he has a nose for the ball. Keep it up, Kawhi!

Unlike RJ who has a nose for balls.

[YODA]

I liked what he did on the offensive boards. He hustled big time.What I hated was 5/9 shots were 3 pts attempts. The team took 33 3 point attempts overall and to me thats way to much. He needs to learn to drive or create a mid jumper. We dont wanthim to turn into a person who sits out on the 3 point line waiting to shoot. He isnt even a 3 point shooter!!. that being said, under the basket he looked great. with some time and help with the offense, he will be fine

[Bill_Brasky]

He's gonna get a lot of steals. Just needs to learn to finish 'em.

[GB20]

I'm sure he will have his rookie moments, but that was pretty good production from the rookie in just 13 minutes of play. He's a different kind of player than George Hill. Not taking anything away from Hill, but that's what we needed. Hope he can keep it up.

Kawhi Leonard (tonight)
13:33
6 Points
6 Reb
1 Assist
2 Steals
1 TO

George Hill (tonight)
24:24 minutes
4 Points
4 Assists
2 Steals
1 Reb
1 TO
this trade is going to look good in a few years. we got kawhi, lorbeck and davis bertan from trading hill.

[therealtruth]

Kawhi is like a bigger version of George Hill on defense with his long arms. He's also an excellent rebounder. His lack of offense isn't as a big a deal with the amount of scoring on the team.

[ace3g]

http://a.espncdn.com/combiner/i?img=media%2Fgettyphoto%2F2011%5C12%5C26%5C136118 626.jpg&w=664&h=899

http://a.espncdn.com/combiner/i?img=media%2Fapphoto%2Ff6616ec3-385a-472c-b223-d6c9cd4a7cea.jpg&w=496&h=512

http://a.espncdn.com/combiner/i?img=media%2Fgettyphoto%2F2011%5C12%5C26%5C136118 559.jpg&w=597&h=898

[tmtcsc]

The dude's 20. He seems so under control and even tempered. Nice to see nowadays. The yelling and whooping it up and pounding one's chest or showing your jersey off is lame and old. Acting like you belong and like you're a professional - is the new showboating. :)

[ducks]

if hill did not get the steal his man made the basket

[ducks]

oh and parker had 4 steals tonight

[timvp]

The trade can't be judged on what Hill does or doesn't do on the Pacers. We already knew what he could do on the Spurs. That's what you have to compare Leonard to.

In the short-term, I'm doubtful that Leonard will end up being an upgrade over Hill. Asking any 20-year-old to do more than what Hill would have brought would be asking a whole lot.

That said, in the long run, I'm have trust in Leonard. He seems like a good kid who really puts in the effort to perfect his craft. Plus, if the FO saw enough in him to move up in the first round in the Popovich era, that's a really good sign Leonard will end up being good. (Although, tbh, I can't really figure out how he's going to ever become an above average offensive player.)

[ducks]

it is called training camp with the assist coaches in the summer next year without the lockout

[GSH]

The trade can't be judged on what Hill does or doesn't do on the Pacers. We already knew what he could do on the Spurs. That's what you have to compare Leonard to.

In the short-term, I'm doubtful that Leonard will end up being an upgrade over Hill. Asking any 20-year-old to do more than what Hill would have brought would be asking a whole lot.

That said, in the long run, I'm have trust in Leonard. He seems like a good kid who really puts in the effort to perfect his craft. Plus, if the FO saw enough in him to move up in the first round in the Popovich era, that's a really good sign Leonard will end up being good. (Although, tbh, I can't really figure out how he's going to ever become an above average offensive player.)


I started out just intending to talk about the kind of lines each player is likely to turn in. Hill is going to score more, and get more assists. Leonard will obviously pick up more boards, and has the honest length to guard some guys that gave hill problems. The point was that even though Hill was good at what he did, we need someone who is good at the things that Leonard (hopefully) will be able to do consistently.

I threw the minutes in mostly to show that it was pretty good production for a rookie debut. It's way too early to judge the trade, though. Just saying that you can see the logic in the lines.

[ElNono]

I'm sure they knew all those numbers when they made the trade :rolleyes

[jag]

Hill had three seasons with the Spurs yet you decide to judge him on his first night with the pacers. Are you retarded?

[jjktkk]

The trade can't be judged on what Hill does or doesn't do on the Pacers. We already knew what he could do on the Spurs. That's what you have to compare Leonard to.

In the short-term, I'm doubtful that Leonard will end up being an upgrade over Hill. Asking any 20-year-old to do more than what Hill would have brought would be asking a whole lot.

That said, in the long run, I'm have trust in Leonard. He seems like a good kid who really puts in the effort to perfect his craft. Plus, if the FO saw enough in him to move up in the first round in the Popovich era, that's a really good sign Leonard will end up being good. (Although, tbh, I can't really figure out how he's going to ever become an above average offensive player.)

The Spurs will not ask Leonard to be a above average player. He was brought in to be their lock down perimeter defender. Maybe not this year, but soon enough. If Leanard can just be average on offense, his defensive abilty, and rebounding will easily be more than enought to offset the loss of Hill.

[GSH]

I'm sure they knew all those numbers when they made the trade :rolleyes

Ya think? But has there been any discussion on this forum about how we should have kept Hill? This was really the first time Kawhi has really shown his stuff.

Jefferson and Leonard are almost exactly the same size. A lot of people still don't understand why the FO signed him. If everything was so obvious, the Spurs' FO wouldn't have to come here to monitor your posts, to know what to do. Don't be so quick to piss on people.



Hill had three seasons with the Spurs yet you decide to judge him on his first night with the pacers. Are you retarded?

Oh, shit. The beer buzzes are wearing off, and now the nasty drunks are bubbling to the surface. I said I wasn't juding them against each other, or on the basis of one night. But, hey, make shit up and then get mad about it.

[TDMVPDPOY]

if his projected to be a long 3 defensive weapon by using his long wingspan...umm ceiling prime ak47 filling up the stat sheet?

[ElNono]

Ya think? But has there been any discussion on this forum about how we should have kept Hill? This was really the first time Kawhi has really shown his stuff.

Jefferson and Leonard are almost exactly the same size. A lot of people still don't understand why the FO signed him. If everything was so obvious, the Spurs' FO wouldn't have to come here to monitor your posts, to know what to do. Don't be so quick to piss on people.

There's more than the game. There's also the economics of not really be able to give Hill a hefty contract. You'll take a 1st round pick every time.

Spurs took a gamble with Leonard. He looked good today, but it's way way too early to declare he's an upgrade over Hill.

[024]

i don't think a lot of people really questioned the trade. it was a good move. the spurs saw a young SF they liked and hill was going to get a pay day soon.

[jag]

Oh, shit. The beer buzzes are wearing off, and now the nasty drunks are bubbling to the surface. I said I wasn't juding them against each other, or on the basis of one night. But, hey, make shit up and then get mad about it.

I don't think someone has to be angry to wonder if you're retarded.

Let me get this straight. You start a thread comparing both players and then post their respective first game stats (for comparison purposes). Then you tell everyone you're not "judging" the players against each other and/or comparing their performances tonight.

Ok.

[jag]

There's more than the game. There's also the economics of not really be able to give Hill a hefty contract. You'll take a 1st round pick every time.

Spurs took a gamble with Leonard. He looked good today, but it's way way too early to declare he's an upgrade over Hill.


Good post.

If today's stats didn't matter, then why not start this thread before the game.

[TDMVPDPOY]

but if you compare his stats to the other rookies, his playin half their minutes while posting the exact same stats...

[Sean Cagney]

The trade can't be judged on what Hill does or doesn't do on the Pacers. We already knew what he could do on the Spurs. That's what you have to compare Leonard to.

In the short-term, I'm doubtful that Leonard will end up being an upgrade over Hill. Asking any 20-year-old to do more than what Hill would have brought would be asking a whole lot.

That said, in the long run, I'm have trust in Leonard. He seems like a good kid who really puts in the effort to perfect his craft. Plus, if the FO saw enough in him to move up in the first round in the Popovich era, that's a really good sign Leonard will end up being good. (Although, tbh, I can't really figure out how he's going to ever become an above average offensive player.)

Hill was topped out here potential wise IMO, we knew what he was and he was not going to get better IMO! He faded out last year late too if I am correct. Hill is a good bench player while Leonard IMO can eventually be a starter in this league or so I hope! I know you said the now and you are right, but I bet they were thinking future on this one.

You never know though Parker at 19 did some things here, raw as he was he came in and started later that year.

[Nathan89]

The trade can't be judged on what Hill does or doesn't do on the Pacers. We already knew what he could do on the Spurs. That's what you have to compare Leonard to.

In the short-term, I'm doubtful that Leonard will end up being an upgrade over Hill. Asking any 20-year-old to do more than what Hill would have brought would be asking a whole lot.

That said, in the long run, I'm have trust in Leonard. He seems like a good kid who really puts in the effort to perfect his craft. Plus, if the FO saw enough in him to move up in the first round in the Popovich era, that's a really good sign Leonard will end up being good. (Although, tbh, I can't really figure out how he's going to ever become an above average offensive player.)

The team can be better even if Kawhi isn't as "good" as Hill. Kawhi fills a different hole and Hill is being replaced by a combination on Neal,Anderson,and Ford.

[SenorSpur]

Even though he missed his share of wide open looks, Leonard had a good first showing tonight. He was just about as good as advertised. He's really got a nose for the ball and his rebounding and defense are already superb.

I liked Hill and how he developed as much as anyone, but I always considered him more of a luxury and NOT a need. A player of Leonard's length, size and activity is PRECISELY what the Spurs were missing.

This Hill-for-Leonard swap was certainly a trade that HAD to happen.

[rascal]

Hill was topped out here potential wise IMO, we knew what he was and he was not going to get better IMO! He faded out last year late too if I am correct. Hill is a good bench player while Leonard IMO can eventually be a starter in this league or so I hope! I know you said the now and you are right, but I bet they were thinking future on this one.

You never know though Parker at 19 did some things here, raw as he was he came in and started later that year.

Hill will have a great season in Indiana.

[ace3g]

http://i.cdn.turner.com/dr/nba/teamsites/release/spurs/sites/spurs/files/imagecache/local_image_gallery_default/111226_14_0.jpg

[Sean Cagney]

Hill will have a great season in Indiana.

With all the options out there I don't know how good! They have Granger, Hibbert and Hansborough etc.! He has a ton of talent around him, but he could have a good year in the end? Great though? Time will tell. I still don't fault the Spurs for going after Leonard since he has more upside in the future IMO. Hill we knew what he had here, he was a backup to Tony and would put up 11 a game and shoot around 39% on threes, thats good but at what cost? He would have left eventually IMO anyways.

[cantthinkofanything]

In the short-term, I'm doubtful that Leonard will end up being an upgrade over Hill. Asking any 20-year-old to do more than what Hill would have brought would be asking a whole lot.


His rebounding and size make him an immediate upgrade. We've got enough personel to replace Hill's inconsistent scoring.

[DMC]

It's about acquiring on the cheap and trading up when they are "developed", or if they become what Pop calls "special", they stick around a few years and make some waves.

[therealtruth]

His rebounding and size make him an immediate upgrade. We've got enough personel to replace Hill's inconsistent scoring.

Exactly. I have no problem if Kawhi is taking good shots and competes on the defensive end.

[Bruno]

With 2 bad preseason games and a bad season opener, George Hill is having a rough start of the season but it's still very early and it can easily change.

Unlike timvp, I think that,t if you want to judge the trade with hindsight, it's relevant to look at what hill does with Pacers. It won't gives you hints of what Hill could have done this year with Spurs but it will give you hints of what he could have done in 3 years when Spurs will be a whole different team than this year version.

The trade wasn't also only Hill for Leonard. Bertans and Lorbek were part of it too. Bertans has been bad since he was drafted but he is only 19 years old. Lorbek is a great player who is having an heck of a season. He has a contract extension offer on the table for more than 6 months but he still hasn't signed it. Maybe he is trying to milk more money from Barcelona, maybe he is genuinely interested by joining Spurs next summer...

[jjktkk]

With 2 bad preseason games and a bad season opener, George Hill is having a rough start of the season but it's still very early and it can easily change.

Unlike timvp, I think that,t if you want to judge the trade with hindsight, it's relevant to look at what hill does with Pacers. It won't gives you hints of what Hill could have done this year with Spurs but it will give you hints of what he could have done in 3 years when Spurs will be a whole different team than this year version.

The trade wasn't also only Hill for Leonard. Bertans and Lorbek were part of it too. Bertans has been bad since he was drafted but he is only 19 years old. Lorbek is a great player who is having an heck of a season. He has a contract extension offer on the table for more than 6 months but he still hasn't signed it. Maybe he is trying to milk more money from Barcelona, maybe he is genuinely interested by joining Spurs next summer...

Good point in bring up the other players involved in the Hill trade Bruno. I had forgotten about them.

[Fireball]

The dude's 20. He seems so under control and even tempered. Nice to see nowadays. The yelling and whooping it up and pounding one's chest or showing your jersey off is lame and old. Acting like you belong and like you're a professional - is the new showboating. :)

But he showed 3 fingers after making the three :lol

The last Spur who did that must be Stephen Jackson ...

[Dex]

With 2 bad preseason games and a bad season opener, George Hill is having a rough start of the season but it's still very early and it can easily change.

Unlike timvp, I think that,t if you want to judge the trade with hindsight, it's relevant to look at what hill does with Pacers. It won't gives you hints of what Hill could have done this year with Spurs but it will give you hints of what he could have done in 3 years when Spurs will be a whole different team than this year version.

The trade wasn't also only Hill for Leonard. Bertans and Lorbek were part of it too. Bertans has been bad since he was drafted but he is only 19 years old. Lorbek is a great player who is having an heck of a season. He has a contract extension offer on the table for more than 6 months but he still hasn't signed it. Maybe he is trying to milk more money from Barcelona, maybe he is genuinely interested by joining Spurs next summer...

It was also the right fiscal decision, too. With Hill's rookie contract coming up, he was going to want more money than the Spurs could afford to give their fourth best player. Better to move him while his value was somewhat high and get a couple nice pieces going forward, than to let him walk for a payday later.

[temujin]

The best player acquired through the Hill trade is Lorbek.
No question about it, expecially for a team playing Bonner 28'.

[analyzed]

You're forgetting another factor that makes this trade so much sense. And that is the play of Anderson (a shooting guard who fill Hills role) plus we have Neal (another SG) . But you might say Hill is a PG., well because of Manu's quarterbacking skills , plus our abundance of capable shooting guards it really makes Hill much more dispensible.
While Leonard is a big defensive and rebounding SF, just what the doctor ordered when you consider our other forwards are RJ, Bonner and Blair, guys who really can't take the place of Leonard and what he brings.

This is a no brainer of a trade on the basis of the Spurs need and what they already have

[mystargtr34]

IMO trading George Hill was almost a move that had to be made.. and most of the reasons why have already been explained in this thread.

- George was the only real trading asset that was going to net the Spurs a good return on the dollar.

- The one position the Spurs could afford to sacrifice to improve more pressing needs was at the 1/2. The emergence of Neal ment George was expendable.. but a bigger reason the trade was made was to accommodate James Anderson.. i think his ceiling is higher than George's and it was time to open up minutes for him.

- Hill is due for an extension its not unlikely he will command in the region of $5-7 Million per year depending on the season he has with Indiana.

You can argue what the Spurs got for Hill.. but i dont think you can make a strong case against the decision to trade Hill to improve other positions.

[Obstructed_View]

Unless Hill grows four or five inches while he's in Indiana, there's nothing to compare. Hill had the skillset the Spurs needed in a body of a 2 guard.

[therealtruth]

Anderson has a higher ceiling than George. He's got size to play 2/3 and he doesn't struggle with his confidence.

[ChuckD]

Unless Hill grows four or five inches while he's in Indiana, there's nothing to compare. Hill had the skillset the Spurs needed in a body of a 2 guard.

Disagree. He has the body of a PG, which was the main problem. He couldn't guard many twos or almost any threes, which they asked him to do from time to time.

[Obstructed_View]

Disagree. He has the body of a PG, which was the main problem. He couldn't guard many twos or almost any threes, which they asked him to do from time to time.

That doesn't disprove my point. He's not a small forward, nor will he ever be. Why you bother posting to split hairs is beyond me.

[TDMVPDPOY]

if leonard can still grow...he be a beasts if he puts it all together...

[SenorSpur]

The trade wasn't also only Hill for Leonard. Bertans and Lorbek were part of it too.

Thanks for bringing that perspective into the discussion. On the surface, this move has the potential for being a haul for the Spurs. If all the players involved pan out the way the FO hopes, I truly believe that the NBA community, experts and Spurs fans will eventually look back on this trade and proclaim "the Spurs have done it again."

[TimmehC]

http://i.cdn.turner.com/dr/nba/teamsites/release/spurs/sites/spurs/files/imagecache/local_image_gallery_default/111226_14_0.jpg

Love this lineup. Hopefully we see it any time the Spurs need a stop.

[wildbill2u]

That's quite a decent stat line for a player in his first NBA game. And we all know that lots of a defensive player's value doesn't even show up in the stats.

Good job, Kwahi. Keep it up and you'll be getting a lot of fan mail this year.

[ginobilized]

I can't believe that I'm the first to say it, but, Leonard looks like the next Bruce Bowen. Dirty work, corner 3's, might be a better rebounder. Defensively, we'll have to wait and see how many positions he can guard. Bruce was so versatile and had a LOT of tricks. Give Kawhi some experience and he is going to be a solid stopper. I could see him fit that mold more than anyone imaginable right now. His attitude seems right for that role, too.

Let's hope he doesn't discover the bowtie, though.

[dbestpro]

The best player acquired through the Hill trade is Lorbek.
No question about it, expecially for a team playing Bonner 28'.

Lorbek stats
2011-2012 STATS
PPG: 14.7
RPG: 4.6
APG: 1.6
SPG: 0.5
2P%: 65.3%
3P%: 56%
FT%: 63.6%

[SenorSpur]

I can't believe that I'm the first to say it, but, Leonard looks like the next Bruce Bowen. Dirty work, corner 3's, might be a better rebounder. Defensively, we'll have to wait and see how many positions he can guard. Bruce was so versatile and had a LOT of tricks. Give Kawhi some experience and he is going to be a solid stopper. I could see him fit that mold more than anyone imaginable right now. His attitude seems right for that role, too.

Let's hope he doesn't discover the bowtie, though.

While there is no time for this now, I hope Pop will enlist the services of Bowen to work with this kid next summer. Some instruction on how to use his hands, slide his feet and how to incorporate whatever other tricks Bowen has in his bag, would be truly beneficial to his development.

[rascal]

With all the options out there I don't know how good! They have Granger, Hibbert and Hansborough etc.! He has a ton of talent around him, but he could have a good year in the end? Great though? Time will tell. I still don't fault the Spurs for going after Leonard since he has more upside in the future IMO. Hill we knew what he had here, he was a backup to Tony and would put up 11 a game and shoot around 39% on threes, thats good but at what cost? He would have left eventually IMO anyways.

Hill will be a future all star in Indiana. That is how good.

Manu should have been the one traded for a big upgrade on the frontline.
Hill and Anderson could have covered the 2 guard spot.

So Hill + starting Big > Manu + Leonard

[Spurtacus]

Hill will be a future all star in Indiana. That is how good.

Manu should have been the one traded for a big upgrade on the frontline.
Hill and Anderson could have covered the 2 guard spot.

So Hill + starting Big > Manu + Leonard

:lmao

[Knoxxx]

Leonard is active, rebounds well and have to love the length.

Negatives are ball handling, not much apparent offensive game, and he looked a bit slow to me.

[WildcardManu]

Hill will be a future all star in Indiana. That is how good.

Manu should have been the one traded for a big upgrade on the frontline.
Hill and Anderson could have covered the 2 guard spot.

So Hill + starting Big > Manu + Leonard

Manu is the heart of this team. He alone wills them.

[ChuckD]

That doesn't disprove my point. He's not a small forward, nor will he ever be. Why you bother posting to split hairs is beyond me.

He can't guard twos, because, in a non hairsplitting take, he doesn't have a two guard body. He's undersized.

[analyzed]

I'm surprised no one mentioned it, but Kawhi had 4 offensive rebounds in 13 min, and was 1st to the ball in countless loose balls, not to mention the 2 steals. These are huge intangibles that the Spurs never had. This early Kawhi is the best offensive rebounder and perimeter defender in the team, that's saying a lot for a rookie

[Dex]

Lorbek stats
2011-2012 STATS
PPG: 14.7
RPG: 4.6
APG: 1.6
SPG: 0.5
2P%: 65.3%
3P%: 56%
FT%: 63.6%

I still don't understand how any player can shoot threes nearly as well as they shoot free throws.

Then again, I also don't understand how any player who plays ball professionally and puts in hours practicing every day can shoot worse than 70% from the line. I can shoot 70-80% most days, and I play ball maybe once or twice a month.

I understand that things are probably different under the bright lights and in pressure situations, but still...if your job is to shoot that orange ball through that rim, you'd think there wouldn't be so many players who are terrible at it in the easiest and most basic of circumstances.

[Obstructed_View]

He can't guard twos, because, in a non hairsplitting take, he doesn't have a two guard body. He's undersized.

Yet my point was that he's too small to be a small forward. Have someone explain it to you.

[dunkman]

Hill was a great offensive player since his college days. His true shooting was really great. However, I was a bit disappointed to see Nash play so well in 2009. While his shot improved a lot, his defense was inconsistent. Also, Hill is not a PG. But he has wing span and he typically guarded Kobe well ie.

Anderson is a talented offensive player, but not so talented as Hill. Neal is another good player at Hill's position, so one them could have been traded.

The FO finally got the wing defender and Lorbek brings a lot of talent where the Spurs are thin. With 4 big contracts, the Spurs may have been forced to let Hill walk after his rookie contract.

I'm sure it wasn't an easy decision to let Hill go, but it was a necessary trade to address various needs.

[rold50]

Hill will be a future all star in Indiana. That is how good.

Manu should have been the one traded for a big upgrade on the frontline.
Hill and Anderson could have covered the 2 guard spot.

So Hill + starting Big > Manu + Leonard

:rollin

[mountainballer]

NBA is a business in the first place, so it might be also accurate to compare this stats.

Neal
2010-11 $565,000
2011-12 $788,872 - not guaranteed
2012-13 $MIN new CBA - not guaranteed

Hill
2010-11 $854,389
2011-12 $1,390,906
2012-13 $ new contract (QO $2,052,978)

yes, this looks like bean counting, but I claim that Hill was as well as gone the moment Neal signed this deal. (which is one of the best deals $ for $ for any team in the whole NBA). if JA didn't get injured, Hill might even have been traded at last deadline. it's not that Hill was that expensive (in fact he was pretty low cost compared to what he dlivered), but consider tax and even more the 2012 off season and it makes even more sense to trade him, when you have Neal.
in 2012 Hill likely would have asked for MLE money, at least for the Mini MLE. this would have taken 5 or 3 million from the 2012 cap space and as we know, 2012 will be the crucial year for the Spurs future.

buy low, sell high. in the case of Hill this was a perfect example for doing the right deal at the right time. invest a late 1st round pick, get back 3 productive seasons on low costs, turn it into a borderline lottery pick plus two more players before it gets costly and replace the production by an even less costly player.
a lot of people complained about the FO this summer and yes, there wasn't much to rave about, but moves like the whole Neal and Hill story are still premium FO work.

[dunkman]

I see that the fo/coaching staff has done well in drafting and developing PGs and SGs, but the front-court positions are an enterely different situation.

The Bowen replacement has been searched since 05, to get in the situation from 09-11 where the Spurs didn't have an elite wing defender. Pat Riley was great developing such players (also, for all-defensive bigs).

The same situation goes with the bigs. Hopefully Blair and Splitter will prove me wrong, but there have been a lot projects that didn't work well and also missed opportunities (Scola).

[Em-City]

Did someone say hill is gonna be an all star one day :lol