2012: Manu > Kobe

[analyzed]

This might sound like a bias Spurs fan assessment, but before you dismiss the claim. Look at it objectively , I've always believed that based on their strengths and skill sets (Manu's craftiness, ball handling, shooting) and Kobe's explosivness and athleticisim , Manu would age better. in their twilight of their careers in their mid 30's Manu's game is better suited to last.
If you watched Kobe's game lately, while he can still create, he has ended into primary a jump shooter. More than ever Kobe is now being asked to be a playmaker and get big's Gasol and Bynum involved, the problem is he really dosen't have the skill set for that, In contrast when you look at Manu's game it was built to get others involved, he is the ultimate crafty quarterback from the shooting guard spot. A lead guard in it's truest meaning. Argenitina's flex multiple screen offense and picks was built with Manu as the center piece. It's nothing new to him. It's not far fetch to agree that the Manu you see now at 34 is as good as the Manu in his late twenties. Although he might have lost some of his explosivness , which was really never the focal point of his game anyway, he has become more crafty and his outside shot has improved. While Bryant's game was always build around the athlete he is.

I know the rest of the NBA will consider this as blasphemy, but i really think there is some merit to it. let's see how this pan's out , if it not so evident this year , watch them play next year and this statement might not sound so silly after all. Seriously

[ducks]

you realize kobe hand is hurt right

[Spurtacus]

if you ask Hollinger I believe he'll say Manu > Kobe the last 5 years

[LakerLanny]

if you ask Hollinger I believe he'll say Manu > Kobe the last 5 years

Quoting Hollinger as a source of basketball knowledge is sad and pathetic. He is an assclown and mutt of the highest order, check out his playoff predictions in the past for instance.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

Manu > Kobe in 20never


C'mon bro. I love Manu to death. But he is not better than Kobe.

[DMC]

Hollinger is a numbers guy. He tells you what the stats indicate.

I wouldn't put Manu over Kobe except for the fact that Manu is a smarter player, more ready to pass and he not only trusts his teammates, he forces the issue by dishing them the ball in areas where they probably don't even trust themselves.

If I'm a name, I would rather play with Manu than Kobe, put it that way.

Kobe has better athleticism and is a better shooter and an underrated passer. Manu is a PG like passer (better than most PGs in the league actually) and is deceptively quick even when you've seen it before. He scores and defends through pure hustle and smarts, Kobe relies more on his physical abilities.

[ElNono]

Quoting Hollinger as a source of basketball knowledge is sad and pathetic. He is an assclown and mutt of the highest order, check out his playoff predictions in the past for instance.

He does suck at predicting... about the same as you and your takes, tbh.

[DAF86]

Kobe is playing pretty well this season, tbh. I expected him to suck a lot more. The Problem is he doesn't have a team as stacked as before and people think that because the Lakers are losing that Bryant is playing badly, which isn't the case. Just as when people thought he was the best player in the league just because his stacked team won championships.

[MaNu4Tres]

It's been 2 games...

Breathe...

[stephen jackson]

Mvp mvp

[GoodOdor]

Hollinger is a numbers guy. He tells you what the stats indicate.

I wouldn't put Manu over Kobe except for the fact that Manu is a smarter player, more ready to pass and he not only trusts his teammates, he forces the issue by dishing them the ball in areas where they probably don't even trust themselves.

If I'm a name, I would rather play with Manu than Kobe, put it that way.

Kobe has better athleticism and is a better shooter and an underrated passer. Manu is a PG like passer (better than most PGs in the league actually) and is deceptively quick even when you've seen it before. He scores and defends through pure hustle and smarts, Kobe relies more on his physical abilities.

Mostly correct. The reason Kobe is a top 10 HOF(or very close to it) and Manu is someone who at best, a number 2 on a title team, is the difference in athleticism. Manu's skillset is actually very close, if not basically the same, as kobe's.

I think Kobe is as good a passer, just not as willing. I give him some slack in that because he played with some really horrible teams....it's not hard to "trust" your teammates when you're playing with Duncan, Parker, Horry, etc, as opposed to Kwame brown and luke fucken walton.

That being said, Kobe>>>Manu, this season, as well.



































lol manu>dirk.

[DAF86]

Crofl Good/BadOdor again trying to talk like if he knows something like he tried to do with football.

P/S: Manu is a hall of famer tbh, fwiw, iyi.

[Hooks]

Its been Manu>Kobe for a while now, shit Manu lead the Spurs to 61 wins last year as the #1 option.

[ElNono]

I think Kobe is as good a passer, just not as willing. I give him some slack in that because he played with some really horrible teams....it's not hard to "trust" your teammates when you're playing with Duncan, Parker, Horry, etc, as opposed to Kwame brown and luke fucken walton.

This is BS, tbh... Kobe has been a chucker (volume shooter :rolleyes) even when he had HoF guys scoring much easier and better than him (ie: Shaq in 03/04, Pau in 08/09).

Frankly, Kobe had a shitty team around him pretty much only 2 seasons of his long ass career.

It's ok though, he's a stat-padder chasing records, nothing wrong with that.

[GoodOdor]

This is BS, tbh... Kobe has been a chucker (volume shooter :rolleyes) even when he had HoF guys scoring much easier and better than him (ie: Shaq in 03/04, Pau in 08/09).

Frankly, Kobe had a shitty team around him pretty much only 2 seasons of his long ass career.

It's ok though, he's a stat-padder chasing records, nothing wrong with that.

Can't argue too much with that. He probably get's another ring with shaq if he plays as a second fiddle in those 2004 finals.

I know you're not a GNSF, so I'll assume you're trolling when you say pau was "scoring better and easier" - that's what happens when you pair all star talent with top 10 HOF players - they get to take good shots because the D isn't focused on them.

[GSH]

Hollinger is part stock analyst, part (fake) psychic. Analysts look at things that have already happened, and then select the numbers that "explain" it in a particularly bizarre way. Psychics predict 10 outrageous things - then ignore the 9 that didn't come true, and tell everyone about the 1 that did.

The one thing they all understand is that people will forgive you for saying ridiculous shit, but they won't forgive you for being boring.

[Nathan89]

One thing for sure is that Manu is a much better defender than Kobe. Kobe is a terrible defender.

[GoodOdor]

One thing for sure is that Manu is a much better defender than Kobe. Kobe is a terrible defender.

Kobe doesn't deserve his last few first team all defense, but he was at one point a shut down defender.

Manu has never been better than adequate.

[ElNono]

I know you're not a GNSF, so I'll assume you're trolling when you say pau was "scoring better and easier" - that's what happens when you pair all star talent with top 10 HOF players - they get to take good shots because the D isn't focused on them.

The point is, good players recognize when they have a teammate with a more favorable matchup. Manu isn't just a good passer, he just won't force a shot when somebody else is open.

Kobe has no problem chucking 24 shots (and making 6).

[TheSullyMonster]

I love Manu. But he misses too many games and doesn't play well consistently enough to proclaim Manu>Kobe.

[Nathan89]

Kobe doesn't deserve his last few first team all defense, but he was at one point a shut down defender.

Manu has never been better than adequate.

He's currently a much better defender than Kobe. I'm not talking about the past.

[ElNono]

Kobe doesn't deserve his last few first team all defense, but he was at one point a shut down defender.

Manu has never been better than adequate.

Disagree with this. Kobe had all the tools to be a shut down defender, he just slacked. Manu has always been an above average defender. Not first team all defense-quality, but above average nonetheless.

[GoodOdor]

The point is, good players recognize when they have a teammate with a more favorable matchup. Manu isn't just a good passer, he just won't force a shot when somebody else is open.

Kobe has no problem chucking 24 shots (and making 6).

Kobe+Pau won 2 rings, so Kobe taking a couple of shots more than he should have is allright in my book.

And that game 7 is one where you can't criticize kobe too much - he recognized that he was chocking and only took 4-5 shots in the fourth quarter. Great decision tbh.

[ElNono]

I love Manu. But he misses too many games and doesn't play well consistently enough to proclaim Manu>Kobe.

This is definitely the other factor besides athleticism that favors Kobe. Health and stamina.

[ElNono]

Kobe+Pau won 2 rings, so Kobe taking a couple of shots more than he should have is allright in my book.

And that game 7 is one where you can't criticize kobe too much - he recognized that he was chocking and only took 4-5 shots in the fourth quarter. Great decision tbh.

Well, you can look at a lot of games throughout that campaign. Fisher and Artest saved the bacon in more than one game. The point remains, however, Kobe isn't that good of a passer because he's got shitty teammates. He just rather shoot. Which is ok.

[GoodOdor]

Disagree with this. Kobe had all the tools to be a shut down defender, he just slacked. Manu has always been an above average defender. Not first team all defense-quality, but above average nonetheless.

Kobe was a shut down defender - somewhere around 2000-2004. Once you become the number 1 option on your team, you can't also remain a perimeter shutdown defender, tbh.

I disagree about Manu being anything more than an adequate defender. Getting a lot of steals is not the same as playing food D.

In their primes, Kobe>>>Manu defensively(nothing against manu, but this is where Kobe's athleticism comes into play.

[GoodOdor]

He's currently a much better defender than Kobe. I'm not talking about the past.

Based on a 2 game sample?

















































Spurs are on pace to go undefeated baby!

[ElNono]

Kobe was a shut down defender - somewhere around 2000-2004. Once you become the number 1 option on your team, you can't also remain a perimeter shutdown defender, tbh.

I disagree about Manu being anything more than an adequate defender. Getting a lot of steals is not the same as playing food D.

Manu contributes way more than just steals. He's infamous for taking charges (flopping :rolleyes), and making the right defensive play at the right time (won us more than game, like Denver last season) or the wrong move (trying to block Dirk in '06).

He had a lot of game-changing blocked shots on bigger-more athletic guys (Pau, Durant, Kobe, KG, Wade).

I would argue his defense didn't stood out more because we had a defensive beast in Bowen during some of that time.


In their primes, Kobe>>>Manu defensively(nothing against manu, but this is where Kobe's athleticism comes into play.

And I agree with this. Kobe had all the tools. He just only brought it to display when challenged. He just wasn't a consistent defensive guy even though he had all the tools to do it.

[GoodOdor]

Manu contributes way more than just steals. He's infamous for taking charges (flopping :rolleyes), and making the right defensive play at the right time (won us more than game, like Denver last season) or the wrong move (trying to block Dirk in '06).

He had a lot of game-changing blocked shots on bigger-more athletic guys (Pau, Durant, Kobe, KG, Wade).

I would argue his defense didn't stood out more because we had a defensive beast in Bowen during some of that time.



And I agree with this. Kobe had all the tools. He just only brought it to display when challenged. He just wasn't a consistent defensive guy even though he had all the tools to do it.

Tbh, I mainly agree.

Before I go to bed:

lol spurs
lol 2-0 start giving hope
lol will lose in the first round again
lol lakers aren't any better
lol mavs even worse
lol bonner+blair front court



Good night.

[Nathan89]

Based on a 2 game sample?



No. Kobe was a terrible defender last year as well. Even Ariza was making him look bad in the 1st round last year. This year has been more of the same.

[Fireball]

One thing for sure is that Manu is a much better defender than Kobe. Kobe is a terrible defender.

Didn't Kobe make the All Defensive Team last year? Travesty ...

[FkLA]

Didn't Kobe make the All Defensive Team last year? Travesty ...

His past 5-6 selections have been pathetic tbh.

[G-Dawgg]

If I had a team and wanted to win a championship and i have a choice of taking either Manu or Kobe, no question I take Manu....
Manu makes his teamates better.

[Sean Cagney]

One thing for sure is that Manu is a much better defender than Kobe. Kobe is a terrible defender.

Kobe has not been great on D, his ALL d TEAMS are so much BS TO ME! He is a great O player but so overrated on D it's rediculous! I have proven this time and time again from Billpus or Hamilton in 04 and Pierce or Allen in 08! If he is such a great defender why not guard one of them those years? He guarded Prince lol! He is not a lockdown great defender at all, very overrated there. I agree with you.
His past 5-6 selections have been pathetic tbh.

I agree, crazy overrated defender from his name alone! He has never been lock down nor near it on D, read above.

[DJ Mbenga]

man and you think the laker fans in the nba forum are nuts. wow

[analyzed]

It's rediculous to compare Manu and Kobe's past career, their is no comparison that is not the point of thread. I'm comparing both moving forward a mid 30's manu vs a mid 30's Kobe. And me thinks because of Manu's game that dosen't rely on athleticim as much , will age better. In a sense Manu is the Nash of SG while Kobe is more like a westbrook or a younger Baron Davis of PG. Kobe relies on sheer explosiveness as a scorer to become a good passer, he is the ultimate scoring threat , the draws so much attention , and that's what makes him a good passer, while the way he creates jumpers and outside shots is by elevating / out jumping his defenders. While Manu relies on smarts to pass and get of his shot (jumpers) . A look, a fake, timing etc. He also relies on smarts on defense, being at the right place at the right time, anticipating the passing angles etc.

Lastly Manu has the advantage of having the same coach, core players (tony, timmy) , same system, to put him in situations to lead the team.
Kobe' has to do it all over again with coach Brown, and seriously is reluctant to be the quarterback & emotional leader to Gasol and Bynum. I mean it's hard reinvent your self as a facilitator when all these years you have been jacking up shots. and everyone's role was to move out of the way.

I just think Manu is in a better position to be succesfull in their twilight years. This is going to come down whose team goes further. If Manu leads his team , you can bet he will get all the support from timmy and company. With Kobe you will see a lot of bitching from Bynum etc when things go sour.

[temujin]

As for the past, put Kobe in San Antonio and Manu in LA and see who ends up with more rings.

As for the future, Manu is a better passer and overall playmaker, he will age very well.

As for me, Manu Ginobili, not Kobe, got me interested back into professional basketball in the early 00s: he does things I had never seen from anyone before.

[DAF86]

Here's Manu beign an "adequate defender"


25lbjxV7s-8&feature=related


I didn't remember this play, this is just as good as his Durant/Wade/KG/Kobe blocks.

[therealtruth]

As for the past, put Kobe in San Antonio and Manu in LA and see who ends up with more rings.

As for the future, Manu is a better passer and overall playmaker, he will age very well.

As for me, Manu Ginobili, not Kobe, got me interested back into professional basketball in the early 00s: he does things I had never seen from anyone before.

I agree. Watching Manu reminds me of watching Jordan in that they're both fun to watch. I'm always watching to see what he's going to do next. I don't get that same feeling when watching Kobe. I think if Manu had been on a team where he was the star from day 1 he would be a perennial allstar.

[Roddy Beaubois]

Holy shit. I don't even know where to begin.

[jjktkk]

The Thread should of been named who is more valuable to his team tbh.

[BanditHiro]

now that the ring count is

2.5

3

i believe the opinion of the thread

[Obstructed_View]

I know it's fun to piss off Lakerfan, but Kobe is a rotten measuring stick for what makes a great player unless you think chuckers are great. Kobe's scoring three more points per game on nine extra shots. Kobe's averaged more than 20 shots per game over nine different seasons. Manu's taken more than 20 shots in a game 20 times in his career.

[Obstructed_View]

So now that Jim is officially in the grave you pussies are clinging to a Kobe/Manu debate. In Kobe's 16th season he will have a better year than Manu has every had or will have.

More stats for tha chucker! WOoo WOOW..

[DMC]

Mostly correct. The reason Kobe is a top 10 HOF(or very close to it) and Manu is someone who at best, a number 2 on a title team, is the difference in athleticism. Manu's skillset is actually very close, if not basically the same, as kobe's.

Same thing I said minus the HOF talk. He's 2 on the title team because his ego allowed him to come off the bench. Kobe was 2 on 3 title teams. So, I don't get your point there.


I think Kobe is as good a passer, just not as willing. I give him some slack in that because he played with some really horrible teams....it's not hard to "trust" your teammates when you're playing with Duncan, Parker, Horry, etc, as opposed to Kwame brown and luke fucken walton.
Luke Walton on the Spurs would be a much better player today than he is in LA. Manu plays with international players who couldn't hold Luke's jock strap (but Luke would let them). So maybe some of the players LA has run through in Kobe's tenure were so shitty because Kobe is such a piece of shit to work with. Both his coach and his teammate have blasted him in their books as being an arrogant, selfish prick. Do you think it's odd that SA finds all these decent players out of nowhere and the Lakers cannot develop a 1st overall pick?

It boils down to selflessness. Sure Kobe is a competitor, but he's also an "all for me" guy, where as Manu is a "win at any cost" guy. Kobe doesn't see winning as meaningful if he's not the focal point of the win.

[GoodOdor]

Same thing I said minus the HOF talk. He's 2 on the title team because his ego allowed him to come off the bench. Kobe was 2 on 3 title teams. So, I don't get your point there.
Luke Walton on the Spurs would be a much better player today than he is in LA. Manu plays with international players who couldn't hold Luke's jock strap (but Luke would let them). So maybe some of the players LA has run through in Kobe's tenure were so shitty because Kobe is such a piece of shit to work with. Both his coach and his teammate have blasted him in their books as being an arrogant, selfish prick. Do you think it's odd that SA finds all these decent players out of nowhere and the Lakers cannot develop a 1st overall pick?

It boils down to selflessness. Sure Kobe is a competitor, but he's also an "all for me" guy, where as Manu is a "win at any cost" guy. Kobe doesn't see winning as meaningful if he's not the focal point of the win.

I mostly agree. Kobe's mentality probably cost him at least 1 ring.

That doesn't change the fact that Kobe>>>>>>>Manu.

[Donkeybong]

:lmao

[cantthinkofanything]

I mostly agree. Kobe's mentality probably cost him at least 1 ring.

That doesn't change the fact that Kobe>>>>>>>Manu.

Kobe is a piece of turd that will only give 80% if he doesn't think his team will win. Manu will guve 100% on any team in any situation. Mark these fucking words.

[GoodOdor]

Kobe is a piece of turd that will only give 80% if he doesn't think his team will win. Manu will guve 100% on any team in any situation. Mark these fucking words.

Kobe at 80%>> Manu at 100%.

[The ADMIRAL 50]

I know it's fun to piss off Lakerfan, but Kobe is a rotten measuring stick for what makes a great player unless you think chuckers are great. Kobe's scoring three more points per game on nine extra shots. Kobe's averaged more than 20 shots per game over nine different seasons. Manu's taken more than 20 shots in a game 20 times in his career.

Great post. :tu

Coming with the great stats and info right there.

[therealtruth]

In all reality if Manu was chucking as many shots as Kobe he would be averaging 30 and a perennial allstar. He's definitely sacrificed alot of personal accolades for the team.

[dav4463]

Kobe has more stamina and is a better athlete. Manu is a better basketball player. Kobe doesn't really scare me anymore.

[PGDynasty24]

LOL this thread

[therealtruth]

I've never understood the fear that Manu would breakdown if you played him over 30 minutes. He has no problem playing 30+ minutes in the playoffs. If you asked Manu all the time they used to limit his minutes he would tell you he wanted to play more.

[Jelloisjigglin]

:lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao

[mystargtr34]

Manu is too inconsistent.. plus he breaks down alot. Yeah Kobe shoots 40% and takes 25 shots doing so.. but at least hes consitent at it :lol you know what your getting. Manu's best is as good as anyone in the league outside of LeBron.. but his worst is alot worse.

[PGDynasty24]

Considering Kobe shoots a higher pecentage career wise than Manu,interesting argument about shot selection.

[mystargtr34]

Your right ..but I think you know what my response will be.

TS%

Manu: .589%
Kobe: .556%

Thats a pretty huge margin.. Manu takes a much higher % of 3pt fg's hence his fg% will naturally be lower.. however TS% is the best indicator of efficiency.

[mystargtr34]

Kobe is obviously the better player though.. mainly because he has the stronger more durable body. i.e hes black.

[Obstructed_View]

In all reality if Manu was chucking as many shots as Kobe he would be averaging 30 and a perennial allstar. He's definitely sacrificed alot of personal accolades for the team.

In reality there are probably a lot of guys in the NBA that dream of being able to put themselves before their team and shoot 21-28 times per game.