3 way deal being discussed: LAL / HOU / GS

[milkshakeballa]

I have a source both with the Lakers and a separate source with Houston who BOTH confirmed this trade is being discussed. They both said it might not happen in the next few weeks, but they gave it a 75-80% chance of this happening by the deadline.

HOU in: Pau Gasol, Derek Caracter
HOU out: Luis Scola, Kevin Martin

GS in: Kevin Martin
GS out: Monte Ellis

LAL in: Luis Scola, Monte Ellis
LAL out: Pau Gasol, Derek Caracter

Picks and $ are still being worked out. I am not even sure if this is allowed under the CBA but they both independetly confirmed this was currently being discussed.

[IronMexican]

Where you been brah?

Bynum, brah.

[milkshakeballa]

Where you been brah?

Bynum, brah.

Iron brah. Been busy as fuark.

Bynum looking like an absolute beast. Doubt we get Howard so we need to hope Drew stays healthy. He has DOMINATED practice.

[ElNono]

GS in: Kevin Martin
GS out: Monte Ellis

This is why this trade is baloney. Trading Ellis for Martin makes no sense. Martin actually makes more than Ellis this season and the next.

And Monta (along with Curry) is pretty much the franchise there.

[milkshakeballa]

This is why this trade is baloney. Trading Ellis for Martin makes no sense. Martin actually makes more than Ellis this season and the next.

And Monta (along with Curry) is pretty much the franchise there.

They have been trying to move Ellis for the better part of 6 months now...

[DPG21920]

Ya, for something that is not worse financially or fit wise.

[BUMP]

sick party last night imo

[AFBlue]

This is why this trade is baloney. Trading Ellis for Martin makes no sense. Martin actually makes more than Ellis this season and the next.

And Monta (along with Curry) is pretty much the franchise there.

The trade would allow Curry to slide over to PG full-time and play alongside a legiimate SG.

[ElNono]

The trade would allow Curry to slide over to PG full-time and play alongside a legiimate SG.

Not sure what you mean by "legitimate SG"... And Curry has been the full-time PG in GSW.

Makes no sense paying more for lesser talent.

[JMarkJohns]

Not sure Martin is lesser talent. At this point Ellis is the player he is. I doubt he ever maxes his potential, and Martin is really playing well this year.

[ElNono]

Not sure Martin is lesser talent. At this point Ellis is the player he is. I doubt he ever maxes his potential, and Martin is really playing well this year.

Hmm... if anything, Martin is the one dimensional guy whose main trick has declined the last season. Ellis had a slight drop on his scoring too, but his assists have been progressively getting better and better (7.7 last season).

Martin is younger, but Monta is much more athletic. Salary wise, Martin makes about $1.5 million more than Ellis the next two seasons, but Monta has a player option on the 3rd. At $11 million though, he's relatively speaking a bargain for a 21/8 guy.

If GSW wants to ship him, they probably can get better than Kevin Martin.

[DPG21920]

Not sure Martin is lesser talent. At this point Ellis is the player he is. I doubt he ever maxes his potential, and Martin is really playing well this year.

Not sure if serious.

[JMarkJohns]

I understand that, but they probably want a pure scorer in return, and Martin has a better attitude and can play off the ball better, as he's the better pure shooter.

Ellis is both the younger player (by two years) and cheaper player (by 1+ million per season), but he's had some attitude issues, and likes the ball in his hands to be most effective.

If a pick goes from LA to GS along with Martin, I think that's a fair deal and one that keeps Golden State similarly competitive. Overall, Martin doesn't force things as much as Ellis, both in poor shots, and in turnovers, where Ellis has a career 1.6/1 A/TO ratio, and, over the last few seasons, his 5+ APG averages have brought about 3+ to even close to 4 TOPG averages.

I get it.

[DPG21920]

Sure if they get a nice pick it might make more sense because they aren't a legit threat, but the Curry/Martin back court would be worse defensively and even if they some what fit more naturally it's only because Kevin's game is less dynamic. Any offensive gains at all will be offset by their defense being a sieve.

[JMarkJohns]

Not sure if serious.

Have you seen his increased percentages? Yeah, too small a sample size, but Martin has only taken a step back in PP because he's averaging fewer shots, both FG and FT. I'm sure if he wanted to he could get to the FT line at a higher clip, and he likely will.

As for Ellis, he's a very good player who has seemed to hit his plateau, save for this season's flukish 7+ APG.

Ellis certainly has a higher ceiling and more potential, but within winning basketball and not just stats for stats, I think Ellis is what he is.

[JMarkJohns]

Sure if they get a nice pick it might make more sense because they aren't a legit threat, but the Curry/Martin back court would be worse defensively and even if they some what fit more naturally it's only because Kevin's game is less dynamic. Any offensive gains at all will be offset by their defense being a sieve.

That backcourt certainly puts up stats, but it's not a chemistry-based offense, but rather two individuals.

As for defense, good perimeter defense is best started with a strong frontcourt defense. Get some shot-blockers to guard the paint and their mediocre defense isn't the concern. I'm sure Jackson knows this. Ellis is much of a defender, save for his steals. He's more athletic, so he's not a flat-out liability, but I've never seen Ellis lockdown anyone, or be considered a plus defender.

Frankly, I don't care. I'd be pretty happy to see Gasol gone from Los Angeles, as I think they are undervaluing him pretty drastically and think any departure that doesn't fetch Howard or another superstar (of which Scola/Ellis is not) is a downgrade. I'm really not sure Ellis can coexist with Bryant. Ellis likes the ball in his hands, and he won't have that freedom in LA, more than likely.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Kevin Martin imo is as much of a stat whore as Ellis is. He's also an even worse defender and is injury prone. Golden State would be retarded to do that trade.

[DPG21920]

:lol what has Kevin Martin helped win? His basketball is the epitome of putting up stats when your team really isn't competitive. He can't defend, at all. Monta isn't the best, but at least when he tries he can actually defend adequately.

What do you mean this year's flukish 7+ assists from Monta? Last year he averaged almost 6 and the year before over 5. Kevin Martin scoring 19 points a game isn't a step forward, it's what he's always done. He also has a career worse FG% than Monta by a decent margin so if anything is the fluke, it's Kevin's increased FG%.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

and yeah it also wouldn't be a good trade for LA. Scola is an over-glorified role player who has put up OK numbers on a bad team his entire career.

[DPG21920]

I'm not trying to say the gap between Monta and Martin is massive, but I just don't like your arguments. I like Monta better, but I don't think it would be a terrible trade for GS. However, trying to act like Kmart is so much better than Monta is silly to me.

[ElNono]

Monta is 1/2 the franchise in Golden State. Last time Martin had a similar role he was jettisoned by the Kings.

If you're trading 1/2 your franchise might aswell get something good in return.

[ElNono]

Frankly, I don't care. I'd be pretty happy to see Gasol gone from Los Angeles, as I think they are undervaluing him pretty drastically and think any departure that doesn't fetch Howard or another superstar (of which Scola/Ellis is not) is a downgrade. I'm really not sure Ellis can coexist with Bryant. Ellis likes the ball in his hands, and he won't have that freedom in LA, more than likely.

I would also have no problem seeing Pau walk. But I do see why Lakers would want Ellis. Kobe is only getting older, and they really have no legit SG backup behind him. They also been craving for a starting quality PG, and Ellis can play that role.

[JMarkJohns]

:lol what has Kevin Martin helped win? His basketball is the epitome of putting up stats when your team really isn't competitive. He can't defend, at all. Monta isn't the best, but at least when he tries he can actually defend adequately.

Which is very seldom.

As for Martin, yeah, I understand everything you're saying and said such just a month ago when he was traded New Orleans. However, play him alongside a good PG, using him off the ball in the Rip Hamilton style, and I think he stats can work well within that type of offense, maybe bringing more cohesive flow to the offense than having another player who requires the ball in his hands to be most effective. Some of the idea is what's lost in SG effectiveness is gained in PG effectiveness as Curry picks up the slack.


What do you mean this year's flukish 7+ assists from Monta? Last year he averaged almost 6 and the year before over 5. Kevin Martin scoring 19 points a game isn't a step forward, it's what he's always done. He also has a career worse FG% than Monta by a decent margin so if anything is the fluke, it's Kevin's increased FG%.

I said flukish because he's not done the total before, but also because he's never had this significant a jump in APG since he became a starter. It's always been very incremental, and this is a HUGE jump from 5.6 to 7.7, so, yes, fluke. He's also not holding fast to his career 1.6/1 A/TO ratio, as he's currently almost 2.5/1, which would be the first time he's ever been better than 2/1.

As for Martin, I like him because he's not a volume shooter to score. Ellis requires roughly 20 shots per game for his recent run of 24ish PPG averages. That's not efficient at all. Martin, however, has a career of 12 shots per game for his career 19 PPG average. That is efficient. And while his shooting percentage is a bit flukish, it's been consistently around 44/45% the last few years, and his 3-FG% has been increasing season to season. As of last year he was already a better 3-point shooter than Ellis, and he's always been the better player to get attempt/make FTs.

I get the objections, which is why I said include a 1st (based upon the initial post). And yes, I probably should have clarified the initial comment a bit better, but this trade isn't nearly as bad as some are making it out to be. This trade likely brings back a 20 PPG scorer while freeing up lots of touches/shots for others, which, for Golden State, might not be a bad thing.

[JMarkJohns]

I'm not trying to say the gap between Monta and Martin is massive, but I just don't like your arguments. I like Monta better, but I don't think it would be a terrible trade for GS. However, trying to act like Kmart is so much better than Monta is silly to me.

What the hell are you reading, because it's not my posts. I never once said Martin was better. I said he was a significantly lesser talent, and could bring a more efficient offensive system to Golden State which better maximizes other already-in-place talent like Curry/Wright/Rush.

I never once said he was better, other than he's a more efficient scorer.

In fact, I even corrected the statement that Martin was younger than Ellis, further devaluing the trade of Martin to Golden State for Ellis.

Don't know what you're reading, but I think you're reading too far into my very general statements (save for the last post I made).

[ElNono]

He takes 20 shots because he's the go to guy. Who else is going to take shots outside of Curry and maybe Lee? Biedrins? Dorrel Wright? Brandon Rush?

I'm 99% positive that if Martin goes to GSW, he will be asked to carry the same load. And I don't think he can.

[JMarkJohns]

I would also have no problem seeing Pau walk. But I do see why Lakers would want Ellis. Kobe is only getting older, and they really have no legit SG backup behind him. They also been craving for a starting quality PG, and Ellis can play that role.

Ellis isn't a starting quality PG. He's got a career 1.6/1 A/TO ratio and averages 20 shots per game over the last four seasons.

He's a SG who shoots a lot, scores a lot, passes well and turns the ball over frequently. He's a talent, and a dynamic scorer, but it's never been good basketball, not that Martin is either, but my argument is the 20-ppg scorer on 13 shots per game is better for a winning offense than a 24-ppg scorer on 20 shots per game.

[JMarkJohns]

He takes 20 shots because he's the go to guy. Who else is going to take shots outside of Curry and maybe Lee? Biedrins? Dorrel Wright? Brandon Rush?

I'm 99% positive that if Martin goes to GSW, he will be asked to carry the same load. And I don't think he can.

Curry was a scorer in the same vein as Ellis in college. I'm sure he can absorb some of the shots. Rush is a good shooter, Wright is a nice scorer, and Lee can handle a few more touches off the pic-n-roll as well.

You take 20 shots on bad teams for several reasons, the least of which is because you're a leader.

[Tinystarz]

Houston needs fisher!

[ElNono]

Ellis isn't a starting quality PG. He's got a career 1.6/1 A/TO ratio and averages 20 shots per game over the last four seasons.

He's a SG who shoots a lot, scores a lot, passes well and turns the ball over frequently. He's a talent, and a dynamic scorer, but it's never been good basketball, not that Martin is either, but my argument is the 20-ppg scorer on 13 shots per game is better for a winning offense than a 24-ppg scorer on 20 shots per game.

He would fill the role well because the Lakers are looking at scoring, and to match up athletically (which is where Fish is falling off a cliff right now).

He's also a willing passer, and he obviously would have a different role than his GSW role.

[ElNono]

Curry was a scorer in the same vein as Ellis in college. I'm sure he can absorb some of the shots. Rush is a good shooter, Wright is a nice scorer, and Lee can handle a few more touches off the pic-n-roll as well.

You take 20 shots on bad teams for several reasons, the least of which is because you're a leader.

He's just the best shooter of pretty much all those, not to mention none of those guys can create their own shot and Ellis can. It's not like Ellis isn't a willing passer.

[DPG21920]

Not sure Martin is lesser talent. At this point Ellis is the player he is. I doubt he ever maxes his potential, and Martin is really playing well this year.

This comment along with others is where I got it from. You seem to be implying Martin is better by knocking down Monta and calling him a fluke and saying "he's peaked and is what he is..."

You failed to address the fact Monta consistently has a better FG% than Kevin and that is with having to create on his own. Again, if anything is the fluke, it's Kevin's %'s, not Monta's assist.

Yes, he gets to the FT line much more and that is a big part of what Kmart does, but as El Nono said, he would be replacing Monta and would have to do the things Monta does for the team.

It's not a bad trade, but Monta is the better player.

[rayjayjohnson]

They have been trying to move Ellis for the better part of 6 months now...

I heard Ellis was untouchable

[ChumpDumper]

Damn, it's bad enough seeing Scola in a Rocket uniform.

[JMarkJohns]

This comment along with others is where I got it from. You seem to be implying Martin is better by knocking down Monta and calling him a fluke and saying "he's peaked and is what he is..."

You're really good at taking things out of context.

The phrase lesser talent to me is a put-down. Both Martin and Ellis are 20-ppg scorers, Ellis a bit more dynamic, but a bit more hands-on, while Martin a bit more efficient. Ellis is the better/more-willing passer, but I feel much of it is causal from having his hands on the ball so often. Martin plays off screens much more, and doesn't always need the ball in his hands to facilitate his own scoring.

As for the out of context...

I said Ellis is what he is, in that he's plateaued and is unlikely to become a dominant superstar who can carry a winning team offensively. I did nothing to diminish him, in fact saying he had more natural potential and a higher ceiling, but that I didn't see the ceiling being reached alongside another ball-dominant PG and within a winning team. As far as talent, he's up there.

I said his 7+ APG average was a fluke, not just because of sample size (something I did qualify in my comment of Martin's increased FG%), but it is a fluke, for reasons I already pointed out, reasons you've obviously ignored: "I said flukish because he's not done the total before, but also because he's never had this significant a jump in APG since he became a starter. It's always been very incremental, and this is a HUGE jump from 5.6 to 7.7, so, yes, fluke. He's also not holding fast to his career 1.6/1 A/TO ratio, as he's currently almost 2.5/1, which would be the first time he's ever been better than 2/1."

I didn't call Ellis a fluke at all, and to say such proves you didn't read my comments, or are ignoring greater context/adding content.


You failed to address the fact Monta consistently has a better FG% than Kevin and that is with having to create on his own. Again, if anything is the fluke, it's Kevin's %'s, not Monta's assist.

I didn't fail to address anything. I said that Martin is the more consistent shooter, that Ellis the more volume/streak shooter. Martin is a bit more steady, Ellis a bit more dynamic. As for creating his own shots, Martin has a much higher FTA/FTM average for his career, and is very capable of creating his own offense off the dribble, but he doesn't always need the ball in his hands to score, a valued trait in the right offense, along the right guard.

Fact is Ellis requires 20+ FGA to score his 24 PPG, while Martin can score 20+ PG on 13/14 FGA, shoot the 3-ball at a higher clip (he's steadily got better and is now very consistent from the perimeter) and he's better at getting to the line. Overall, Martin, despite his flaws is a bit more efficient.


Yes, he gets to the FT line much more and that is a big part of what Kmart does, but as El Nono said, he would be replacing Monta and would have to do the things Monta does for the team.

It's not a bad trade, but Monta is the better player.

Ellis is the better player, but I think his weaknesses in his strengths of scoring/passing (volume shooter, poor decision-making, need of the ball in his hands) stunt the value of other current Warriors, where a player like Martin could come in, not command the constant touches, still score at high rate.

It's a silly debate because I really don't care for either player, and I'm not sure either is a leader on a winning team. However, the deal isn't horrible if a pick is included.

Like I said, I don't really care if the Lakers over-react and ship out a strength for a player who's never proven himself a winner and who needs the ball in his hands to be most effective.

He'd bring scoring and athleticism, for sure, and maybe that's worth more than Gasol, but Ellis and Scola doesn't seem to equal the impact of Gasol at his best, as neither is the mismatch or versatile player that Gasol is. Maybe they fit Brown's system better, though?

[024]

:lol ellis and kobe on the same team. did the league change the rules and added an extra basketball into the game? why don't the lakers just add arenas too?

[pass1st]

Rather have Curry

[Bill_Brasky]

Why is LA so eager to get rid of Pau....that's some stupid shit right there.

[pass1st]

Why is LA so eager to get rid of Pau....that's some stupid shit right there.

old

[TE]

:lolAlways trying to load up on talent via trades instead of developing your own.

[pass1st]

:lolAlways trying to load up on talent via trades instead of developing your own.

We developed Luke Walton

[Giuseppe]

We developed Luke Walton

& you developed your mother's nepotism.

[4>0rings]

& you developed your mother's nepotism.

...and you developed your uncles sexual orientation.

[Giuseppe]

...and you developed your uncles sexual orientation.

:rolleyes

[DMC]

:lol ellis and kobe on the same team. did the league change the rules and added an extra basketball into the game? why don't the lakers just add arenas too?

I lol'ed :lmao

[Jodelo]

"Sources"...

[pass1st]

& you developed your mother's nepotism.

Little Billy Kindle, does that name strike a bell to you Curly? Of course not, because you didn't have time to ask for his name when you brutally bent him over your white Ford Pinto and gave him 1/3 of a 3 inch tootsie roll. He asked you to develop some mercy, but did you?

uh, uh.

[Kai]

I would so be down for this but still be pissed that Dalembert instead of Nene is the one playing next to Gasol. Doesn't matter though, since it seems that this trade is 100% fabricated.

[baseline bum]

That's a shitty trade for everyone but Houston, who wins bigtime getting to dump KMart's contract.

[BUMP]

and yeah it also wouldn't be a good trade for LA. Scola is an over-glorified role player who has put up OK numbers on a bad team his entire career.

Exactly. I first noticed that in some International Game vs the US (in 2006 I think).

He stayed in the game long after the game was in hand and he would get cheap little put backs and open layups when the US wasn't really trying anymore. His "high motor" was just him trying to stat pad and make it look like he wasn't giving up.

[Giuseppe]

Little Billy Kindle, does that name strike a bell to you Curly? Of course not, because you didn't have time to ask for his name when you brutally bent him over your white Ford Pinto and gave him 1/3 of a 3 inch tootsie roll. He asked you to develop some mercy, but did you?

uh, uh.

Long story there, Pass.

tee, hee.

[pass1st]

Long story there, Pass.

tee, hee.

It probably took 1/3 the time than you took to type that with your arthritic fingers.

[LkrFan]

:lolAlways trying to load up on talent via trades instead of developing your own.

What about Bynum?

[midnightpulp]

Long story there, Pass.

tee, hee.

Cavs are playing. Why aren't you watching?

[midnightpulp]

If Howard is not on the table I take this trade. Pau has that look on his face like he knows he's not wanted. Gambling on Bynum to me is just outright foolish, and beyond stupid. I guess cheering for an overpaid lazy piece of shit is the in thing to do in la la land these days. Elden, Kwame, Luke, now the Speed Racing, handicap parking Bum.

Escrow 400.00 with Kori and I'll go doub or nothing that Bynum averages at least 17 and 10 on over 50% shooting.

[pass1st]

any japanese friend,i am a male .can speak a little japanese.


Hit me up in a PM girl, I am the man you've been waiting for. I'm smooth on the outside, creamy on the inside, spring steel and sex appeal.

I also toss a mean salad.

http://www.japanforum.com/forum/images/smilies/heart08.gif Luva

[midnightpulp]

:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

Put your cash where your dicksucker is.

[ChumpDumper]

He doesn't know what escrow is.

[midnightpulp]

An escrow is when I bust a nut in your mouth as a deposit, then later to be snowballed to midget. He swallows it, then the transaction is complete.

Why do you seem so insistent about busting a nut in another man's mouth? Well, I guess I don't have to ask that question since everyone knows you're a supreme faggot.

Carry on then. West Hollywood awaits.