Honest Question, can an honest answer be given?

[MannyIsGod]

For those in support of the war in Iraq, when does it becomea failure?

[Tommy Duncan]

When Saddam Hussein remains in power.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

When we pull out and leave it to crumble.

[Joe Chalupa]

Failure is not an option in Iraq.
I think the post-war planning has been a failure though and the "Mission Accomplished" photo op did not send to correct message.
Sure you can say it was a success because Saddam has been removed from power but it will be years before things are settled in Iraq to the US's liking.

[Samurai Jane]

Is there a time limit on rebuilding a nation?

[Joe Chalupa]

No. But the sooner the better.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

It's gonna be a long time. Those who were the "ruling party" under the Saddam have lost their stature, they're gonna fight to hold on as long as they can.

[Samurai Jane]

I agree with that, Joe. My brother is a Marine reservist and he's scheduled to be deployed to Iraq in January.

[Uncle Donnie]

I love how the situation in Iraq is portrayed as such a shock to the administration. The WH did anticipate that the post-war rebuilding and peace-keeping would take years. I'd recommend checking out Tommy Franks' book "American Soldier", it's a good book in general and it has a lot of interesting insight into both the Afghanistan and Iraq wars from the person who probably had a better handle on what was going on than anyone.

[1369]

Hey Jane, what unit is your brother with?

[Spurminator]

If we leave and the free Iraqi people elect (or allow themselves to be ruled by) a regime as corrupt and inhumane as the Hussein regime... then this was a failure.

[Joe Chalupa]

I agree with that, Joe. My brother is a Marine reservist and he's scheduled to be deployed to Iraq in January.

Semper Fi!!

[Samurai Jane]

I'm not sure, 1369, he's told me, but I can never remember... :shootme

[Nbadan]

We lost the war when we backed off Fallujooh and reenforced the loss when we backed off in Najif. The only thing left is to turn off the lights on our way out.

[1369]

I was just curious if it was one of the units here in San Antonio.

[Samurai Jane]

The WH did anticipate that the post-war rebuilding and peace-keeping would take years.

Exactly!! I remember the administration telling us over and over that this would not be over quickly. Funny how impatient some people are nowadays.

[Samurai Jane]

1369, Yes, it is here in San Antonio.

[Joe Chalupa]

And that is another reason why I think this administration, while I agree with the removal of Saddam, under estimated the post-war problems they are now facing.
There are too many "groups" that want a share of the power in the new government.
Let the people vote for who they want, not for who we want.

[Nbadan]

Exactly!! I remember the administration telling us over and over that this would not be over quickly. Funny how impatient some people are nowadays.

Yeah, yeah...all this is good, but nobody was telling us that it was gonna cost, at minimum, half a trillion dollars and that we were gonna get caught in a shooting quagmire the whole time we were there.

[1369]

I was with Charlie Company during GWI.

4th Recon is a good group to work with. Your brother is in good company.

[Tommy Duncan]

Um, this is not Vietnam. Get some perspective.

[Joe Chalupa]

Marine Corps Recon ROCKS!!!!!!!!!

[exstatic]

Um, this is not Vietnam. Get some perspective.

Nope. At least in 'Nam, the tropps could go to Saigon, at least for 90% of our time there, for some R&R. There is no place safe to walk the streets in Iraq.

[Tommy Duncan]

Oh sure. It's not Vietnam in scale, it's not Vietnam in the type of resistance that is being faced, etc.

[Nbadan]

This cluster-**** is worse than Vietnam...

[Tommy Duncan]

You are an idiot.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

We lost the war when we backed off Fallujooh and reenforced the loss when we backed off in Najif. The only thing left is to turn off the lights on our way out.

Well, I disagree we lost the war.

But to play devil's advocate, if you're right dan you have no one to blame but yourself and people in your party.

If you all had your way, our troops would fight terrorism with water guns. All you ever do is bitch about any force we do use (see the whole crying over the Bradley terrorist celebration thing), saying it's too much.

Pick a side. You can either have our troops treat them with kid gloves, resulting in more body bags and more "Fallujoohs", or you can take the leash off and let the guys on the ground deal with it how they best feel they can (which would have resulted in wiping out Fallujah).

You can't have it both ways Dan (wait, scratch that, you can, you're a Democrat - you want whichever way makes Bush look worst at the moment).

[spurster]

To me, it became a failure when all those "we know where they are" stockpiles of WMDs did not exist.

[Hook Dem]

Manny...to me , it would be a failure if we didn't finish what we started. All the lives lost would be in vain. I never thought this would be easy and we must commit to the long haul. Too many people think the enemy is stupid. Just look at movies when we were fighting the Germans. They were depicted to be too stupid to come in out of the rain. If that were the case, the war would have ended long before it did. However much we dislike Al-Quada or the insurgents, we must not think of them as stupid, just because of that. Failure will surely become a reality if we pull out now. I have tried to answer your question with open mindedness and without partisan content. Just my opinion.

[SpursWoman]

it would be a failure if we didn't finish what we started

[Yonivore]

Hey, you can't really blame Nbadanallah for feeling this way, Kerry is acting defeated before election day.

It runs in the party.

[DeSPURado]

It was a failure the minute it started taking troops away from finding Bin Laden.

[Yonivore]

bin Laden is dead, buried in a Tora Bora mountainside, and unfindable.

[MannyIsGod]

if the place crumbles into a civil war, would you still consider it a good move/

[Yonivore]

I'd consider it a sad statement on the civility of the Iraqi people.

[NeoConIV]

Either we fight the terrorists now, or we let our kids fight them, if that wouldn't be too late. Probably would.

Seriously, I'm not being flip here, it really doesn't matter how many lives we lose. Winning is the ONLY option. Withdrawl does not win you any brownie points with radical Islam. Too many people fail to look at the big picture. They get fixated on '1,000' deaths, or a rash of car bombs, and say 'oh shit! We fucked up!!'

REALITY CHECK!!!

We have to stay on offense, we must wear them down and prevail. If we don't prevail, they will and that's a fact.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Hook Dem -

Good point. A lot of those leaders running things are western educated. That makes them a lot smarter than the PC idiots running amok on this board, among other places.

Neocon's got it right. In the big picture, this is a war on terrorism (particularly radical Islam) that we can't afford to lose.

The U.S. will have its neck out there for a while, but as things decay around the world, more countries will join the cause. Unfortunately I see things being bad for a long time.

This war on terror will transcend all of our lifetimes, in truth probably our children's as well. Not because of Bush, but because of those leading the cause on the other side now, and in the future.

[MannyIsGod]

do you guys lend any creedance to the educated people and think tanks who think the iraq war has been a step backwards in the overall war on terror/

[Yonivore]

No, because for every one that says that, there are identical uniforms at the opposite think tanks saying the opposite.

They cancel out.

[MannyIsGod]

ok, provide links for said think thanks yoni.

[MannyIsGod]

bump

[Nbadan]

No, because for every one that says that, there are identical uniforms at the opposite think tanks saying the opposite

Yoni has trouble distinquishing between think tanks and pundits, and fact and fiction and speculation. I call it Neoconization.