Please, oh please, O'keefe lands in hot water

[RandomGuy]

If I think it is easy to rob a bank, rob a bank, and then post a video of myself robbing a bank, to show how easy it is, my dumb ass belongs in jail.

It seems this line of reasoning may also apply to federal voter fraud.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!


James O’Keefe ‘N Friends Maybe Going To Prison, For Being Idiots

Doofus dildo monster James O’Keefe’s Project Veritas has irrevocably proven that activists with his group were able to obtain a few ballots in the New Hampshire primary under false pretenses by assuming the identities of very recently deceased people whose names still appeared on the rolls, which is VOTER FRAUD. See how easy it was to cast a fraudulent ballot without an ID in this isolated type of instance? They filmed it, in order to prove just how easily they were able to commit fraud. Look, here is the video that shows them doing the fraud! They put it on the Internet! Here world, we’ve committed a felony! And now the video is being investigated by the New Hampshire state Attorney General’s office, and local election officials want them prosecuted, and James O’Keefe can’t understand why he hasn’t preemptively been awarded next year’s Pulitzer yet.
Patch.com reports:


[Nashua City Clerk Paul] Bergeron said this morning he believes the filmmakers may have committed a federal crime, as well, if they crossed state lines to record the undercover video, and should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

“It’s against the law to steal, so if you go out and steal and then put up a video and say, ‘Look, I stole something,’ that’s a crime. What these people did was a crime; they stole a person’s identity and used it to ty to obtain a ballot that would be used in a state election,” said Bergeron.

“They recorded it without election officials’ knowledge, which apears to be a violation of our New Hampshire wiretapping codes, and some of these are out of state residents, so I don’t know if violations of wiretapping or ID theft could hold up in court, but if they crossed state lines to commit these crimes, it may be a federal crime as well. This is serious; we won’t tolerate voter fraud, regardless of what the intent might be,” Bergeron said.

What is the big DEEAAAAL James O’Keefe demands to know. The media basically just commits felonies all the time, THAT IS HOW REPORTING WORKS, sheesh.


“I notice a contempt and a hostility from the media establishment towards us,” O’Keefe told the [Boston] Herald yesterday. “The journalism establishment is not very friendly to me or to our work product, when they’ve been using these tactics for decades.”

We liked him better when he was trying to trick CNN ladies onto cruise boats full of lube

by Kirsten Boyd Johnson



http://wonkette.com/460148/james-okeefe-n-friends-maybe-going-to-prison-for-being-idiots#more-460148---------------------------------------------------


Mr. O'keefe has always been emblematic of me of the peculiar moral and intellectual rot of the right wing extremists in this country.

That and he *is* an idiot. One can only hope a stint in a federal pound you in the ass prison will adjust his worldview when it comes to willingness to break the law to advance your political viewpoint.

[Winehole23]

might be a verifiable case of voter fraud there

[George Gervin's Afro]

I did cocaine to prove how bad it is!

[CosmicCowboy]

Just curious, I haven't seen the video, but don't you have to consummate the fraud (actually cast the vote) for it to be illegal?

[ChumpDumper]

Just curious, I haven't seen the video, but don't you have to consummate the fraud (actually cast the vote) for it to be illegal?Would have to read the statute, but why wouldn't registration fraud be a crime? You have to steal an identity to do it.

[Winehole23]

in NH procuring someone else's ballot is a crime all by itself, no voting required

[101A]

When I read about this I was thinking how stupid these people were being. DUMB!

[Winehole23]

it was clear from the beginning O'Keefe has more balls than brains

[CosmicCowboy]

OK, I watched the video...they were given the ballots but didn't vote.

[Winehole23]

O’Keefe’s allies could face criminal charges on both the federal and state level for procuring ballots under false names...

Federal law bans (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/usc_sec_42_00001973--gg010-.html) not only the casting of, but the “procurement” of ballots “that are known by the person to be materially false, fictitious, or fraudulent under the laws of the State in which the election is held.”http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/01/election_law_experts_say_james_okeefe_accomplices_ could_face_charges_over_voter_fraud_stunt.php

[CosmicCowboy]

Would have to read the statute, but why wouldn't registration fraud be a crime? You have to steal an identity to do it.

I think stealing is a little strong of a term. They didn't steal a SS#, a drivers license, or any ID. The didn't use the name for anything more than to get a ballot they didn't use.

The whole point of the exercise was that people should HAVE to show ID to get their ballot.

Getting a little hysterical, are we?

[boutons_deux]

The Flaws In The O'Keefe "Voter Fraud" Scheme

Discredited fraud James O'Keefe's latest video attempts to prove how easy it is to steal an election without voter ID laws on the books, but actually demonstrates just how difficult it would be to pull off such a plot.


An actual attempt to carry out such a plot would run into the problem shared by all such schemes to steal elections through in-person voters, rather than in the vote counting phase: without knowing how many votes they need to steal to win, conspirators must engage in a very large effort.

As election experts noted when contacted about O'Keefe's video by TPM, actually pulling off a scheme to swing an election through these methods would be extremely complex, a massive undertaking whose size could quickly lead to its discovery:

Election law expert Rick Hasen, who writes the Election Law Blog, joked in an email to TPM that O'Keefe's team should "next show how easy it is to rob a bank with a plastic gun."

"Who in their right mind would risk a felony conviction for this? And who would be able to do this in large enough numbers to (1) affect the outcome of the election and (2) remain undetected?" Hasen wrote.

Other election experts agreed that the video doesn't change the substance of the debate over whether the minimal threat of in-person voter fraud is worth the impact that such laws can have on minority and poor voters.

"The fact that activists can engage in a stunt is not a reason for reform," Samuel Issacharoff, a professor of constitutional law at New York University Law School, told TPM. "It means nothing. Why would anybody want to do this? It proves that they don't update their dead voter information as quickly as they might, but so what? To pull this off on a large scale, you'd need coordination, and presumably somebody would have heard about it."

The bigger the election, the more precincts and deceased voters would be involved and the more conspirators would be needed. Smaller elections mean fewer votes would need to be stolen, but they also mean that there are fewer recently deceased individuals to pose as.
http://mediamatters.org/blog/201201110011?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+MediaMattersForAmerica-CountyFair+%28Media+Matters+for+America+-+County+Fair%29

=======

O'Keefe's criminal does us all a great service in demonstrating that Repug/WC voter fraud allegations are unfounded, and fraudulent.

[ChumpDumper]

I think stealing is a little strong of a term. They didn't steal a SS#, a drivers license, or any ID. The didn't use the name for anything more than to get a ballot they didn't use.They used someone else's identity to register for an election.

That's identity theft.


The whole point of the exercise was that people should HAVE to show ID to get their ballot.If the facts are correct, the whole point is getting the recently deceased off the rolls.


Getting a little hysterical, are we?Getting a little apologist, are we?

I thought you guys were for law and order. I shouldn't be surprised you are not.

[Winehole23]

lol dismissing violations of Federal law as triviality

[Winehole23]

lol O'Keefe committing voter fraud to save us from voter fraud

[George Gervin's Afro]

other than cns news, breitbart, and fox news...who listens/ promotes to this guy?

[CosmicCowboy]

LOL @ the drama queens...

[ChumpDumper]

LOL @ the drama queens...LOL @ the apologist scofflaw...

[CosmicCowboy]

LOL @ the apologist scofflaw...

so should they seek the death penalty?

[ChumpDumper]

so should they seek the death penalty?And heeeeeeeeere comes the straw man![/Scully]

[Winehole23]

LOL @ the drama queens...the main drama for me is watching you contort yourself to excuse O'Keefe for another brain dead hoax

[CosmicCowboy]

the main drama for me is watching you contort yourself to excuse O'Keefe for another brain dead hoax

I could give a shit about that moron but it is hilarious watching you guys cum all over yourself over this most hideous breach of federal law...:lol

[ChumpDumper]

You don't believe identity theft and registration fraud can be crimes?

[Winehole23]

oh, the ironing!

[Winehole23]

O'Keefe's greatest hits on SpursTalk:

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=159389

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145265

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134685

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4655126&postcount=279

[CosmicCowboy]

You don't believe identity theft and registration fraud can be crimes?

Oh please...

No fraudulent vote was cast or even attempted to be cast.

It was done to prove how easy it was to do and they immediately gave the ballots back...

Seriously...

Is this worth prosecuting? If so, what should the sentence be?

[Oh, Gee!!]

Oh please...

No fraudulent vote was cast or even attempted to be cast.

It was done to prove how easy it was to do and they immediately gave the ballots back...

Seriously...

Is this worth prosecuting? If so, what should the sentence be?

The obtaining of the ballot in and of itself might have been the illegal act tbh. he should get probation or a couple years in the slam.

[JoeChalupa]

The ID crap to vote is simply a GOP plan to reduce votes. Plain and simple to say otherwise is simply just not true.

[CosmicCowboy]

The ID crap to vote is simply a GOP plan to reduce votes. Plain and simple to say otherwise is simply just not true.

Who doesn't have an ID?

[Winehole23]

Seriously...

Is this worth prosecuting? If so, what should the sentence be? now CC suggests that videotaped registration fraud is not worth prosecuting. did world turn upside down, or is CC standing on his head?

[CosmicCowboy]

now CC suggests that videotaped registration fraud is not worth prosecuting. did world turn upside down, or is CC standing on his head?

You seriously think it's worth prosecution and a trial? Again, what do you consider an appropriate punishment?

[clambake]

black panthers

[Winehole23]

Again, what do you consider an appropriate punishment?no/minimal jail time plus whatever the appropriate fine is

[ChumpDumper]

Oh please...

No fraudulent vote was cast or even attempted to be cast.

It was done to prove how easy it was to do and they immediately gave the ballots back...

Seriously...

Is this worth prosecuting? If so, what should the sentence be?You didn't answer the question.

[CosmicCowboy]

You didn't answer the question.

Neither did you.

[Drachen]

Oh please...

No fraudulent vote was cast or even attempted to be cast.

It was done to prove how easy it was to do and they immediately gave the ballots back...

Seriously...

Is this worth prosecuting? If so, what should the sentence be?

a crime was committed so yes it should be prosecuted. As far as the sentence, I would say on the lower side of the standard.

[CosmicCowboy]

a crime was committed so yes it should be prosecuted. As far as the sentence, I would say on the lower side of the standard.

Yet you guys will defend all day not prosecuting illegal aliens...

a little hypocrisy here?

[Winehole23]

being an illegal alien isn't a crime. yet.

[ChumpDumper]

Neither did you.Answer mine, then I'll be glad to answer yours.

Do you consider the identity theft to obtain a government document a crime?

Yes or no.

Do you consider voter registration using a stolen identity a crime?

Yes or no.

[Drachen]

Yet you guys will defend all day not prosecuting illegal aliens...

a little hypocrisy here?

Who? My position has been stated over and over again. I have no problem with prosecuting illegal aliens. I have taken flak from those left of me (as well as other moderates) for this position. I also think that this position is highly inefficient so I think we should be implementing astronomical fines for companies that hire illegals instead. I think that this would be a much more efficient use of limited resources than trying to track and find individual people.

[Drachen]

being an illegal alien isn't a crime. yet.

Disagree, they broke the law by crossing illegally/staying past their visa.

[Winehole23]

breaking immigration law isn't a crime, but an administrative violation

[ChumpDumper]

Yet you guys will defend all day not prosecuting illegal aliens...

a little hypocrisy here?I'm all for deporting O'Keefe to save the legal costs of a trial, but I'm not sure that's how it works.

[Winehole23]

...

[Oh, Gee!!]

Yet you guys will defend all day not prosecuting illegal aliens...

way to shift the focus:lol

[Drachen]

breaking immigration law isn't a crime, but an administrative violation

A rose by any other name? Do you get punished if you get caught? Is a record made?

[CosmicCowboy]

Answer mine, then I'll be glad to answer yours.

Do you consider the identity theft to obtain a government document a crime?

Yes or no.

Do you consider voter registration using a stolen identity a crime?

Yes or no.

Yes it is technically illegal.

The intent of the statute is to prevent fraudulent votes from being cast in an election.

No fraudulent votes were cast or attempted to be cast.

The whole point was to prove how easy it was to cast an illegal vote in the current system.

I could show up at your polling place and say I'm chumpdumper and cast a vote for my choice under the current law because I don't have to show an ID.

[ChumpDumper]

way to shift the focus:lolStraw is his favorite medium.

[Drachen]

I'm all for deporting O'Keefe to save the legal costs of a trial, but I'm not sure that's how it works.

If we are trying to climb back into the upper echelon educationally, this suggestion may serve a dual purpose. :lol

[Winehole23]

administrative law<> criminal law

[ChumpDumper]

Yes it is technically illegal.

The intent of the statute is to prevent fraudulent votes from being cast in an election.

No fraudulent votes were cast or attempted to be cast.

The whole point was to prove how easy it was to cast an illegal vote in the current system.

I could show up at your polling place and say I'm chumpdumper and cast a vote for my choice under the current law because I don't have to show an ID.I am recently deceased?

Oh, my.

[Oh, Gee!!]

Straw is his favorite medium.

red herring is his favorite fish

[Winehole23]

administrative law does not codify crimes, nor are violators punished as criminals.

[CosmicCowboy]

Who? My position has been stated over and over again. I have no problem with prosecuting illegal aliens. I have taken flak from those left of me (as well as other moderates) for this position. I also think that this position is highly inefficient so I think we should be implementing astronomical fines for companies that hire illegals instead. I think that this would be a much more efficient use of limited resources than trying to track and find individual people.

Sorry for lumping you with them.

Administrative violation...:lol

[Drachen]

administrative law<> criminal law

While this sounds like WC's subsidy/tax break distinction. I don't feel like arguing it in this thread, so you win. Can we get back to laughing at CC for not wanting to prosecute a criminal??

[Oh, Gee!!]

Sorry for lumping you with them.

Administrative violation...:lol

let's get back to the topic at hand: you getting your ass handed to you for defending O'keefe.

[Winehole23]

While this sounds like WC's subsidy/tax break distinction. nothing alike. the distinction is real. look it up.

[CosmicCowboy]

let's get back to the topic at hand: Our position is hypocritical and we just hate that bastard for making us look foolish

[ChumpDumper]

How did O'Keefe make us look foolish in this case?

How did he ever make us look foolish?

[Oh, Gee!!]

1/10

[JoeChalupa]

Who doesn't have an ID?

There are plenty of people who don't have an ID.

[CosmicCowboy]

How did O'Keefe make us look foolish in this case?

How did he ever make us look foolish?

Again, lets get this staight...I think that OKeefe is an over the top attention whore thats about a half bubble off and I have no affection for him at all...

BUT

He really does do a fairly effective job of poking holes in classic progressive positions...

In this case resisting having voters show ID's to vote...

He proved beyond a shadow of a doubt how easy it is to cast a fraudulent vote without showing an ID.

And the more you guys talk about him and the media talks about him the more effective he is...:lol

[CosmicCowboy]

There are plenty of people who don't have an ID.

Like who? How do you live in this country legally without an ID?

[Drachen]

There are plenty of people who don't have an ID.

I thought it was already a requirement. I have always shown my ID when voting. How else would they know who I am? (sorry I am a little behind on administrative law :LOL)

[Winehole23]

Administrative violation...:lolit's true

[Winehole23]

if it wasn't, there'd be no need for any bid to make undocumented aliens subject to criminal law for immigration violations

[ChumpDumper]

Again, lets get this staight...I think that OKeefe is an over the top attention whore thats about a half bubble off and I have no affection for him at all...

BUT

He really does do a fairly effective job of poking holes in classic progressive positions...

In this case resisting having voters show ID's to vote...

He proved beyond a shadow of a doubt how easy it is to cast a fraudulent vote without showing an ID.

And the more you guys talk about him and the media talks about him the more effective he is...:lolHe actually showed it's quite difficult to commit the kind of massive vote fraud Republican scare mongers claim happen every election but never prove. :lol

[CosmicCowboy]

He actually showed it's quite difficult to commit the kind of massive vote fraud Republican scare mongers claim happen every election but never prove. :lol

Speaking of straw men...

[CosmicCowboy]

And what is so heinous about just asking for people to show their ID to vote?

[ChumpDumper]

Speaking of straw men...How is that a straw man? It's the bogeyman O'Keefe claims he is fighting here.


And what is so heinous about just asking for people to show their ID to vote?In many cases, it becomes a poll tax. And yes, there are many people who don't have an ID. Given the paucity of actual vote fraud cases and convictions in this country, it's a solution looking for a problem.

[boutons_deux]

"their ID to vote?"

a lot of poor and young people (Dem voters) don't have IDs, would be disenfranchised, which is exactly what the Repugs want with their fraudulent rampant-voter-fraud strategy.

[CosmicCowboy]

How is that a straw man? It's the bogeyman O'Keefe claims he is fighting here.

In many cases, it becomes a poll tax. And yes, there are many people who don't have an ID. Given the paucity of actual vote fraud cases and convictions in this country, it's a solution looking for a problem.

So it's only tens of thousands or maybe a couple hundred thousand but not MASSIVE VOTE FRAUD so it's OK.

Got it. But lets throw the book at the guy that showed how easy it was and DIDN'T vote.

How does getting an ID become a poll tax? Shit...you can't get a legal job or pay income tax without an ID, much less drive or cash a check. What is the fear here?

As far as I'm concerned if someone is living off the grid and not paying taxes (breaking the law by not reporting income) then they don't deserve to vote.

[Winehole23]

nm

[ChumpDumper]

So it's only tens of thousands or maybe a couple hundred thousand but not MASSIVE VOTE FRAUD so it's OK.What is your proof it's tens of thousands?

Link please.


Got it. But lets throw the book at the guy that showed how easy it was and DIDN'T vote.Straw man.


How does getting an ID become a poll tax? Shit...you can't get a legal job or pay income tax without an ID, much less drive or cash a check. What is the fear here? I expect you to play dumb at this point.


As far as I'm concerned if someone is living off the grid and not paying taxes (breaking the law by not reporting income) then they don't deserve to vote.Straw man.

[CosmicCowboy]

And you continue to duck and dodge. nip, nip, nip, little ankle biter but never a real position or actual counter. Whats your proof it's not tens of thousands? What number would you rather use?

[Winehole23]

can't support your own figure, so now you're asking ChumpDumper to do your homework for you.

:lol

[ChumpDumper]

And you continue to duck and dodge. nip, nip, nip, little ankle biter but never a real position or actual counter. Whats your proof it's not tens of thousands? What number would you rather use?:lmao

Congratulations, you just flawlessly executed the cheguevara negative proof tactic employed earlier today by its namesake.

I actually did do the homework on this. IIRC the number didn't even break three digits for the last decade. Feel free to search this forum for it -- then you can decide whether you would like to continue.

[Winehole23]

lol proving a negative

[Winehole23]

lol playing sides of the fence

[CosmicCowboy]

There is no accurate number. So do you guys maintain there is ZERO vote fraud?

[Winehole23]

I don't think anyone said that. I don't think that.

[CosmicCowboy]

I don't think anyone said that. I don't think that.

Well, what is an acceptable amount of voter fraud then?

[Winehole23]

if we can't prosecute jackasses who videotape themselves committing registration fraud, what would be a sufficient threshold, in your opinion?

[Winehole23]

Well, what is an acceptable amount of voter fraud then?who said it was acceptable?

[CosmicCowboy]

who said it was acceptable?

Apparently the people that don't want an ID required to vote. It's a really simple solution.

[ChumpDumper]

There is no accurate number. So do you guys maintain there is ZERO vote fraud?Straw man.

[Winehole23]

in my opinion, none of it is acceptable.

still, the problem is monumentally overhyped. voter ID is likely to prevent more valid than invalid votes. that's why I'm against it.

[CosmicCowboy]

if we can't prosecute jackasses who videotape themselves committing registration fraud, what would be a sufficient threshold, in your opinion?

:lmao


registration fraud...:lol

throw the keys away....:lol

[ChumpDumper]

Apparently the people that don't want an ID required to vote. It's a really simple solution.Taking dead people off the roles is simpler.

[CosmicCowboy]

Straw man.

Another empty post from the ankle biter that is afraid to answer questions.

[ChumpDumper]

:lmao


registration fraud...:lol

throw the keys away....:lolSo you had no problem with the registration fraud committed by workers for ACORN.

[Wild Cobra]

who said it was acceptable?
Then why are people opposed to putting systems in place that can eliminate most ways of a defrauded vote?

[CosmicCowboy]

Again...what legal voter doesn't have an ID?

[ChumpDumper]

Another empty post from the ankle biter that is afraid to answer questions.Give me a question to answer.

All you've been doing is making shit up.

[ChumpDumper]

Again...what legal voter doesn't have an ID?They are out there.

Think about it.

[CosmicCowboy]

So you had no problem with the registration fraud committed by workers for ACORN.

:lmao

You really consider those to be equivalent? Those were done to FACILITATE VOTER FRAUD not to EXPOSE VOTER FRAUD. It's so simple even a caveman could get it.

[CosmicCowboy]

They are out there.

Think about it.

I am thinking about it. What legal voter doesn't have an ID or couldn't get one before the next election?

[Winehole23]

:lmao


registration fraud...:lolhave yourself a good laugh at Federal and state laws that protect elections. people intentionally breaking them apparently causes you hilarity.


throw the keys away....:lolasked and answered. I'm short jail time plus a fine guy.

[ChumpDumper]

:lmao

You really consider those to be equivalent? Those were done to FACILITATE VOTER FRAUD not to EXPOSE VOTER FRAUD. It's so simple even a caveman could get it.You really think ACORN was plotting to have the Dallas Cowboys vote in Las Vegas?

:rollin

[CosmicCowboy]

Give me a question to answer.

All you've been doing is making shit up.

Another empty post from the ankle biter. You've been dodging direct questions all afternoon.

[ChumpDumper]

I am thinking about it. What legal voter doesn't have an ID or couldn't get one before the next election?Elderly, non-English speakers who don't post on political forums.

[CosmicCowboy]

You really think ACORN was plotting to have the Dallas Cowboys vote in Las Vegas?

:rollin

I think Acorn plotted to get registrations approved so they could then vote those registrations. Yes I do. I didn't say they were smart. Most criminals get caught because they aren't very smart.

[ChumpDumper]

Another empty post from the ankle biter. You've been dodging direct questions all afternoon.You've been making up shit and building straw men all afternoon.

[CosmicCowboy]

Elderly, non-English speakers who don't post on political forums.

Did they not have drivers licenses or ID's before they were elderly? You've never heard of license/ID renewal by snail mail?

[ChumpDumper]

I think Acorn plotted to get registrations approved so they could then vote those registrations. Yes I do. I didn't say they were smart. Most criminals get caught because they aren't very smart.If that's what you think, you're either ignorant about how registration drives work or you're just an idiot.

Do you know how election officials found out that ACORN had false registrations?

[boutons_deux]

"I think Acorn plotted to get registrations approved so they could then vote those registrations."

You're parroting Repug lies, no surprise.

What wrong with "getting out the vote"? Repugs don't do it?

[Winehole23]

(zip)

[ChumpDumper]

Did they not have drivers licenses or ID's before they were elderly?In many cases, no.

[CosmicCowboy]

You've been making up shit and building straw men all afternoon.

Ask a direct question you don't want to answer and it's a straw man. What topic in here ever goes exactly in a straight line with no digression? Got it, ankle biter.

[CosmicCowboy]

In many cases, no.

So they didn't pay taxes either? You have to have an ID to pay taxes.

[ChumpDumper]

if ACORN intended to use the registrations fraudulently, why did they turn them over to the authorities?
http://theflickcast.com/wp-content/uploads//peabody+and+sherman.jpg
Quiet, you.

[CosmicCowboy]

:lmao

They turned them over because they got raided by the Attorney General.

http://www.lvrj.com/news/30613864.html

[ChumpDumper]

A major probe by the Justice Department between 2002 and 2007 failed to prosecute a single person for going to the polls and impersonating an eligible voter, which the anti-fraud laws are supposedly designed to stop. Out of the 300 million votes cast in that period, federal prosecutors convicted only 86 people for voter fraud – and many of the cases involved immigrants and former felons who were simply unaware of their ineligibility. A much-hyped investigation in Wisconsin, meanwhile, led to the prosecution of only .0007 percent of the local electorate for alleged voter fraud.

Read more: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-gop-war-on-voting-20110830#ixzz1jHkA9Zit

So on the federal level, let's say the number of people impersonating other people in order to vote is zero.

Do you agree?

[ChumpDumper]

:lmao

They turned them over because they got raided by the Attorney General.

http://www.lvrj.com/news/30613864.html
In a statement released by ACORN on Tuesday, Interim Chief Organizer Bertha Lewis said the group based in Clark County routinely flagged suspect applications and notified the Clark County Election Department. The group provided state and county officials with the names of individuals who submitted the falsified registration forms. :lmao

They got raided because they turned the names over to the election officials.

[ChumpDumper]

So they didn't pay taxes either? You have to have an ID to pay taxes.You don't need a photo ID to pay taxes.

Why do you insist on making shit up?

[ChumpDumper]

Ask a direct question you don't want to answer and it's a straw man. What topic in here ever goes exactly in a straight line with no digression? Got it, ankle biter.What topic have you discussed without building a straw man?'

I can't think of one lately.

[CosmicCowboy]

You don't need a photo ID to pay taxes.

Why do you insist on making shit up?

You have to have a legitimate ID to get a social security number in order to pay taxes.

[ChumpDumper]

You have to have a legitimate ID to get a social security number in order to pay taxes.So not a photo ID.

Thanks for helping me out there.

[CosmicCowboy]

So not a photo ID.

Thanks for helping me out there.

So it's ALL about a PHOTO ID? :lmao

REALLY?

You must really think these people are sub-humanly stupid if they are legitimate citizens with legitimate identifications and can't get a photo ID before the next election.

[CosmicCowboy]

Well, it's been fun but gotta make a ranch run this afternoon.

[ChumpDumper]

So it's ALL about a PHOTO ID? :lmao

REALLY?

You must really think these people are sub-humanly stupid if they are legitimate citizens with legitimate identifications and can't get a photo ID before the next election.Straw man.

It's an unnecessary burden since the incidence of actual registered voter impersonation is zero.

[ChumpDumper]

Well, it's been fun but gotta make a ranch run this afternoon.It was especially fun when you claimed there were hundreds of thousands of cases of vote fraud.

[Winehole23]

I'm glad CC enjoyed the pants-down spanking. I doubt it'll be the last one he gets here.

[ElNono]

You have to have a legitimate ID to get a social security number in order to pay taxes.

This is not true. You don't need to have a social security number to pay taxes. You can get an ITIN (Individual Taxpayer Identification Number) from the IRS and use it to pay your taxes.

That's how the vast majority of illegals that do pay taxes do it.

[boutons_deux]

Political Battle Brewing Over New Voter ID Laws

http://npr.org/news/graphics/2012/01/map-voterid-300.gif

As the presidential campaign kicks into high gear, a fight is brewing over stricter voting laws that could affect turnout and influence general election results in battleground states.

New laws in several states will require millions of voters to show photo identification when they cast ballots this year, the result of a nationwide push mostly by Republicans who claim the measures will prevent election fraud. Democrats and voting rights activists oppose the laws, arguing that they are unnecessary because voter fraud is rare.

Opponents also say the laws are part of a Republican strategy to suppress turnout among scores of eligible voters — particularly young voters, poor voters and African-Americans — who tend to favor Democratic candidates.

In 2008, the Supreme Court upheld a voter-identification law in Indiana, saying that requiring voters to produce photo identification is not unconstitutional and affirming that states have a "valid interest" in improving election procedures and deterring fraud.

Now 31 states require voters to show some form of identification at the polls. Fifteen of them require photo IDs. (The rest require identification without photos, such as a voter registration card, Social Security card or other government-issued ID, or a utility bill or bank statement showing a home address.)

Many of these states have passed other laws that scale back early voting periods — which have often benefited Democratic candidates — or stop allowing people to register to vote on Election Day, a practice credited in 2008 with adding tens of thousands of new voters, the majority of whom voted for President Obama.

A recent study by the Brennan Center for Justice at New York University, which opposes such laws, estimated that the new laws could harm 5 million voters. About 18 percent of seniors and 25 percent of African-Americans don't have photo identification, according to the study.

Critics decrying the laws as purely politically motivated say the laws have been passed particularly in 2012 battleground states. The Brennan Center report found that states that have passed such laws hold 171 electoral votes, or 63 percent of the 270 votes needed to win the presidency.

"These new restrictions fall most heavily on young, minority and low-income voters, as well as on voters with disabilities," researchers Wendy R. Weiser and Lawrence Norden wrote in the study. "This wave of changes may sharply tilt the political terrain for the 2012 election."

Opponents are fighting back. Groups such as the Brennan Center and the American Civil Liberties Union are filing lawsuits to block such legislation, and have successfully scuttled voter ID bills in Ohio and elsewhere. Democratic governors in Minnesota, Missouri, Montana, New Hampshire and North Carolina vetoed strict new photo ID laws in 2011.

In some cases, these are state battles. In others, the federal government plays a role: The 1965 Voting Rights Act mandates that the Justice Department approve any changes to the election laws proposed in nine southern states, including South Carolina and Texas, which have a history of racially discriminatory voting practices.

Late last month, the Justice Department blocked South Carolina's new photo ID law, saying it would unduly harm thousands of minorities who don't have identification.

http://www.npr.org/2012/01/11/145044060/political-battle-brewing-over-new-voter-id-laws?sc=17&f=1001

[Th'Pusher]

Again, lets get this staight...I think that OKeefe is an over the top attention whore thats about a half bubble off and I have no affection for him at all...

BUT

He really does do a fairly effective job of poking holes in classic progressive positions...

In this case resisting having voters show ID's to vote...

He proved beyond a shadow of a doubt how easy it is to cast a fraudulent vote without showing an ID.

And the more you guys talk about him and the media talks about him the more effective he is...:lol

what Colbert/Stewart are doing to expose the issues with super pacs/citizens united is a better gag and quite frankly more important. Colbert for president of the US of South Carolina.

[Wild Cobra]

They are out there.

Think about it.
You're joking, right?

[Wild Cobra]

I think stealing is a little strong of a term. They didn't steal a SS#, a drivers license, or any ID. The didn't use the name for anything more than to get a ballot they didn't use.

The whole point of the exercise was that people should HAVE to show ID to get their ballot.

Getting a little hysterical, are we?
They should get a medal if anything for exposing how easy the fraud is, and that you only get caught if you want to.

[CosmicCowboy]

I'm glad CC enjoyed the pants-down spanking. I doubt it'll be the last one he gets here.

Please keep your homoerotic fantasies to yourself.

There wasn't any spanking going on, just more of the usual chump ankle biting.

[Winehole23]

There wasn't any spanking going onPoint for point, your failure has been striking in this thread. There's degree of self-pantsing, but much was received at the hands of your interlocutors.

[CosmicCowboy]

Point for point, your failure has been striking in this thread. There's degree of self-pantsing, but much was received at the hands of your interlocutors.

Disagreeing is not depantsing but if you feel that strongly that you have to "win" on the internet it says a lot more about you than me.

[Winehole23]

never said that I won, but you clearly lost

[Winehole23]

lol after declaring victory upstream

[Winehole23]

I can understand wanting to deflect the shame but you're just making it worse for yourself, tbh.

[ChumpDumper]

You're joking, right?No, and the Bush administration proved there isn't a fraud problem at all.

[Winehole23]

Then why are people opposed to putting systems in place that can eliminate most ways of a defrauded vote?Because the most commonly proposed countermeasure, requiring IDs, could disenfranchise up to three million (http://www.npr.org/2012/02/01/146204308/why-millions-of-americans-have-no-government-id?ft=1&f=1001) legit voters, including 18% of seniors and 25% of African-Americans (http://www.brennancenter.org/page/-/d/download_file_39242.pdf).

[Winehole23]

THE 2012 general election campaign is likely to be a fight for every last vote, which means that it will also be a fight over who gets to cast one.


Partisan skirmishing over election procedures has been going on in state legislatures across the country for several years. Republicans have called for cutbacks in early voting, an end to same-day registration, higher hurdles for ex-felons, the presentation of proof-of-citizenship documents and regulations discouraging registration drives. The centerpiece of this effort has been a national campaign to require voters to present particular photo ID documents at the polls. Characterized as innocuous reforms to preserve election integrity, beefed-up ID requirements have passed in more than a dozen states since 2005 and are still being considered in more than 20 others.


Opponents of the laws, mostly Democrats, claim that they are intended to reduce the participation of the young, of the poor and of minorities, who are most likely to lack government-issued IDs — and also most likely to vote Democratic.



Conflict over exercising the right to vote has been a longstanding theme in our history. The overarching trend, which we celebrate, has been greater inclusion: property requirements were dropped; racial barriers were formally eliminated; women were enfranchised.
Yet there have always been counter trends. While the franchise expanded during some moments and in some places, it contracted in others, depriving Americans of a right they had once held. Between 1790 and 1850 — the period when property requirements were being dropped — four Northern states disenfranchised African-American voters, and New Jersey halted a 17-year experiment permitting women to vote. During this same period, nine states passed laws excluding “paupers” from political rights.


After Reconstruction, both major political parties attempted to constrict the electorate, albeit in different locales. In the South — as is well known — Democratic state legislatures employed a variety of devices, including literacy tests, poll taxes, “understanding” clauses and, eventually, Democratic primaries restricted to whites. As a result, African-Americans were largely excluded from electoral participation from the 1890s until the 1960s.
In the North, similar, if less draconian, legal changes, generally sponsored by Republicans, targeted (among others) the millions of immigrant workers pouring into the country. In 1921, for example, New York State adopted an English-language literacy requirement for voters that remained in force (and was enforced) for decades. Almost invariably, these new limits on the franchise were fueled by partisan interests and ethnic or racial tensions; they were embraced by respectable Americans, like the eminent historian Francis Parkman, who had come to view universal suffrage as a “questionable blessing.”


Many of the late 19th- and early 20th-century laws operated not by excluding specific classes of citizens but by erecting procedural obstacles that were justified as measures to prevent fraud or corruption. It was to “preserve the purity of the ballot box” that legislatures passed laws requiring voters to bring their sealed naturalization papers to the polls or to present written evidence that they had canceled their registration at any previous address or to register annually, in person, on one of only two Tuesdays.


The new procedures were widely recognized, by both their advocates and their targets, as having a far greater impact on some groups of voters — immigrants, blue-collar workers, the poor — than on others, and they often succeeded. In Pittsburgh in 1906, a personal registration law, sponsored by Republicans to check the influence of a crusading reformer, cut the number of registered voters in half.


In the 1930s, “pauper exclusion” laws were invoked to disenfranchise jobless men and women who were receiving relief. In 2000, Massachusetts disenfranchised prisoners after they formed an organization to promote inmate rights.


The targets of exclusionary laws have tended to be similar for more than two centuries: the poor, immigrants, African-Americans, people perceived to be something other than “mainstream” Americans. No state has ever attempted to disenfranchise upper-middle-class or wealthy white male citizens.
http://campaignstops.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/02/12/the-strange-career-of-voter-suppression/

[CosmicCowboy]

MARTIN: And what about - are the states making any provision to help voters like this who have not previously had IDs...

DADE: Yeah.

MARTIN: ...to get them? Or are interest groups doing that?

DADE: Well, they are. The interest groups are trying to fill in the void of information, where to get the IDs, what kind of documents you need to get them when you show up so you're not caught unawares.

As far as the states go, they are issuing non-driver voter IDs. Many of them are for free, but the problem is, when you go to Department of Motor Vehicle offices, the waits are very long, they're time consuming. The governor of Tennessee, who's a Republican, by the way - he has expressed concern about the average wait times there, which extend well beyond an hour. And if you're talking about thousands of elderly, in particular, they can't wait that long.

Why can't they wait that long? What else do they have to do?

[Winehole23]

perhaps there's a method that wouldn't exclude hundreds of thousands of eligible voters, but obviously you don't give a fuck about excluding valid voters to solve practically non-existent voter fraud

[boutons_deux]

CC's bank account causes him extreme myopia, where he can't see that old, sick, disabled, no-car people have a hard time make 1,2,3 trips to whatever govt offices to get birth certs, IDs, photos made, etc.

Shitbag, anti-American, anti-democratic, anti-FREEDOM Repugs know they are fucked unless they can force govt to intrude into voters lives and dis-enfranchise Ms of Dem voters.

[Winehole23]

Repugs are fucked? I thought the VRWC was unfuckable. Are you suggesting voting actually matters?

[CosmicCowboy]

perhaps there's a method that wouldn't exclude hundreds of thousands of eligible voters, but obviously you don't give a fuck about excluding valid voters to solve practically non-existent voter fraud

I read the articles you posted. It's all excuses. It is not that hard to get a certified copy of a birth certificate if you don't have one and then get a free photo ID. The only thing that would exclude them from voting is being too lazy/unmotivated to get a photo ID.

[CosmicCowboy]

CC's bank account causes him extreme myopia, where he can't see that old, sick, disabled, no-car people have a hard time make 1,2,3 trips to whatever govt offices to get birth certs, IDs, photos made, etc.

Shitbag, anti-American, anti-democratic, anti-FREEDOM Repugs know they are fucked unless they can force govt to intrude into voters lives and dis-enfranchise Ms of Dem voters.

If you care so much why don't you donate your time to helping them get ID's?

[Winehole23]

I read the articles you posted. It's all excuses. It is not that hard to get a certified copy of a birth certificate if you don't have one and then get a free photo ID. The only thing that would exclude them from voting is being too lazy/unmotivated to get a photo ID.what's your excuse for wanting to disenfranchise the poor, the sick, the elderly and disabled by the truckload? The statistically insignificant incidence of voter fraud ? How pathetic.

[Winehole23]

you're defending a procedural hurdle that is not only unneeded, but will curtail the most basic right: voting

[Winehole23]

that's a much bigger deal than voter fraud imho.

[CosmicCowboy]

It's just an ID! Cry me a fucking river...They would only be disenfranchised if they CHOSE to be disenfranchised.

[Winehole23]

voter ID isn't needed, because voter fraud doesn't threaten US elections. why should we make voting more difficult absent a significant threat to the integrity of elections?

[CosmicCowboy]

voter ID isn't needed, because voter fraud doesn't threaten US elections. why should we make voting more difficult absent a significant threat to the integrity of elections?

I guess we will choose to disagree about this. I think people should prove who they are before they vote, you don't. You fear that this requirement will cost Democratic votes which is the REAL issue.

[Winehole23]

If it were Republican voters who stood to lose, my position would be exactly the same. Voter ID is a solution in search of a problem.

[Winehole23]

There's also the issue of redundancy. To whatever extent voter fraud provably exists, we have the enforcement of existing election laws to thank.

The system already works: why fix something that ain't broke?

[boutons_deux]

Repugs are fucked? I thought the VRWC was unfuckable. Are you suggesting voting actually matters?

VRWC is more than the Repugs. VRWC is unbeatable, but they might be slowed ever so slightly.

As the batshit nasty Repug governors and state legislatures are showing, they can implement WRWC/ALEC dictates without controlling WH or Congress.

[Winehole23]

are you sure Dems don't carry laws penned by ALEC?

[Winehole23]

VRWC is unbeatable, but they might be slowed ever so slightly......by voting for Dems.

(btw, your blue colored underpants are showing.)

[CosmicCowboy]

There's also the issue of redundancy. To whatever extent voter fraud provably exists, we have the enforcement of existing election laws to thank.

The system already works: why fix something that ain't broke?

Your position is based on the claim that there is no fraud. How do you prove/disprove fraud if there is no ID and no accountability? I don't think either one of us has FACTS to back up the existence or non-existence of voter fraud.

[Winehole23]

Your position is based on the claim that there is no fraud. Nope. I just said existing law has got it covered.

[Winehole23]

If you think existing law is inadequate, that's on you. I can't prove a problem doesn't exist, but you can show that one does. You haven't done that.

[CosmicCowboy]

If you think existing law is inadequate, that's on you to show.

Texas already has a voter ID law as EXISTING LAW. If you think it should be changed that's on you to show.

:p:

[Winehole23]

Equities. Purports to solve an overhyped problem at the expense of eligible voters.

[Winehole23]

Plus, is not existing law everywhere yet.

[CosmicCowboy]

Plus, is not existing law everywhere yet.

Well, most of us vote in Texas.

[Winehole23]

So?

[Winehole23]

There's a broader debate to take part in. Texas ain't the whole story.

[RandomGuy]

Texas already has a voter ID law as EXISTING LAW. If you think it should be changed that's on you to show.

:p:

The only problem that law solves is that some groups tend to vote for Democrats, because it is, for the Republican super-majority in the Texas Legislature, a problem.

Voter fraud is not a problem of a scale large enough to warrant disenfranchising the disadvantaged.

Since the costs so obviously outweigh the benefits to society as a whole, I can only conclude the real reason is to reduce the number of people who vote for Democrats. As a Republican rank and file, that should worry *you*.

If you can find a group of statewide elections where such fraud has had a material effect, I might reconsider that. I will accede that some instances of fraud have affected some narrow local elections. That is inevitable in a large country.

[RandomGuy]

Because the most commonly proposed countermeasure, requiring IDs, could disenfranchise up to three million (http://www.npr.org/2012/02/01/146204308/why-millions-of-americans-have-no-government-id?ft=1&f=1001) legit voters, including 18% of seniors and 25% of African-Americans (http://www.brennancenter.org/page/-/d/download_file_39242.pdf).

Bingo.

Just for emphasis.

[Wild Cobra]

Because the most commonly proposed countermeasure, requiring IDs, could disenfranchise up to three million (http://www.npr.org/2012/02/01/146204308/why-millions-of-americans-have-no-government-id?ft=1&f=1001) legit voters, including 18% of seniors and 25% of African-Americans (http://www.brennancenter.org/page/-/d/download_file_39242.pdf).
I disagree. The systems would allow for free ID cards for those who are low income.

Look... I'm all for using the purple ink. How about you. Is that a good alternative?

[RandomGuy]

So it's ALL about a PHOTO ID? :lmao

REALLY?

You must really think these people are sub-humanly stupid if they are legitimate citizens with legitimate identifications and can't get a photo ID before the next election.

Many elderly lack the prerequisite birth certificate, simply by virtue of being born before such records were widely kept.

For people on tight incomes, it can be hard to get time off, and be able to afford the hassle if you don't have one.

It is a bigger barrier than you think for a lot of people.

[Wild Cobra]

Now if you are Larry Finkelstein, we can understand why you don't want to have valid ID.

A true 99%'r:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_wj_w-NV-i04/TUDSz03UpLI/AAAAAAAAAOQ/Mm5CzFfBDPw/s1600/Dharma+and+Greg.jpg

[RandomGuy]

Now if you are Larry Finkelstein, we can understand why you don't want to have valid ID.

A true 99%'r:


Translation:

"I don't have any evidence of widespread voter fraud, so here is a funny picture."

Meh.

[Wild Cobra]

Many elderly lack the prerequisite birth certificate, simply by virtue of being born before such records were widely kept.

For people on tight incomes, it can be hard to get time off, and be able to afford the hassle if you don't have one.

It is a bigger barrier than you think for a lot of people.
Then change the laws also and allow for ID's based on verifiable residency over the long term. Just stop making excuses for not having the requirement. Instead, become part of the solution.

[Wild Cobra]

Translation:

"I don't have any evidence of widespread voter fraud, so here is a funny picture."

Meh.

You never read me well, do you.

That was the only picture I could find of the character in the show Dharma and Greg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharma_and_greg). Ever see it?


Dharma & Greg is an American television sitcom that aired from September 24, 1997, to April 30, 2002.

It stars Jenna Elfman and Thomas Gibson as Dharma and Greg Montgomery, a couple who married instantly on their first date despite being complete opposites. The series was co-produced by Chuck Lorre Productions, More-Medavoy Productions and 4 to 6 Foot Productions in association with 20th Century Fox Television for ABC. The show's theme song was written and performed by composer Dennis C. Brown.
Cast

Jenna Elfman as Dharma Freedom Montgomery, née Finkelstein, Greg's wife and a flower child. She is overly cheerful and sensitive, but she is also more compassionate and forgiving than most people. Despite her trust in the goodness of people and persistent good intentions, Dharma is not naive. She understands the real world, employs sarcasm and receives it well. Dharma perseveres in expressing her personality and her identity even in the face of an overwhelmingly opposing world. Dharma encourages Greg to seek happiness rather than fret about practical issues like money. She is named after the concept of dharma in Indian philosophy. Once, a Native American friend of her father's gave her the name "Crazy Man's Daughter".

According to Chuck Lorre's eleventh vanity card (see below), he and Dottie Dartland originally conceived Dharma & Greg as "a series revolving around a woman whose personality is not a neurotic product of societal and parental conditioning, but of her own free-flowing, compassionate mind".

Thomas Gibson as lawyer Gregory Clifford "Greg" Montgomery, Dharma's husband. He is an upright, uptight, decent, though sometimes surprisingly open-minded man. Greg's life was hopelessly banal before he met Dharma and married her on their first date. Since then, he has played straight man to the antics of his eccentric wife. Though his relationship with Dharma has been rocky at times, Greg has never been shown to regret their marriage. He is an alumnus of elite schools, Phillips Exeter Academy, Harvard University, and Stanford Law School.

Susan Sullivan as Katherine "Kitty" Montgomery, Greg's extravagant mother. In the beginning of the first season Kitty was generally represented as a manipulative, controlling woman who only had higher aspirations for her son. As an elite socialite, Kitty was initially quite displeased to have Dharma and her parents join the family, but over the course of the series, Kitty broadens her limited country club world to become part of a larger family, becoming a major part of Dharma's life, while remaining lovingly manipulative.

Mitchell Ryan as Edward Montgomery, Greg's eccentric father. His philosophy for dealing with his wife, Kitty, involves remaining as uninvolved as possible. Head of Montgomery Industries (though he keeps working only because he can see little tugboats out the window) and at odds with Dharma's father, who calls him "Ed" and whom he calls "Finkelstein." Edward is a graduate of the University of Notre Dame, of which he is fiercely proud, and partially resents Greg for considering Notre Dame to not be "good enough" for him. Ed is often seen drinking martinis and Scotch.

Mimi Kennedy as Abigail Kathleen "Abby" O'Neil, Dharma's free-spirited, caring mother, who encourages her daughter and son-in-law to produce children: "Feel free to have sex anywhere." Although they have a grown daughter and later a son, she and Dharma's father are not married. She and Larry were engaged and held the wedding ceremony but still did not marry to "stay under the radar". Unlike her "lifemate" Larry, she immediately accepted Greg, though she still constantly annoys and conflicts with his parents. She is a militant vegan, which is a never-ending source of trouble. During her pregnancy in season 4, however, she did make exceptions because of her food cravings. It was mentioned in Invasion of the Buddy Snatcher that she has a degree in ornithological psychology from Berkeley.

Alan Rachins as Myron Lawrence "Larry" Finkelstein, Dharma's "hippie" father. He is a stereotypical sixties radical who frequently rants about various conspiracies, a lot of which revolve around Richard Nixon. He also thinks he's wanted by the FBI, but when Greg discovers he's not, his family goes to great lengths to prove to him that he still is because this is a source of great pride to him. Despite this, he manages to get along with Edward, often when both are sick of dealing with their wives. He homeschooled Dharma in American history, passing on his conspiracy theories, such as the latest Apollo mission secretly burying the missing minutes of the Watergate tapes on the moon. It is often alluded to that Larry is a chronic user of marijunana, though never shown. In the season 4 episode Mother Daughter Reunion, Dharma mentions that Larry has a resistance against most drugs after frequent use. In the pilot episode Abby introduces his usual cluelessness with "he blew out his short term memory back in 1972". He sometimes becomes a "pothead savant" and reveals skills such as his talent for carpentry and his music.
This fails to mention his constant fear of "being on the grid."

[Winehole23]

Just stop making excuses for not having the requirement. Instead, become part of the solution.solution to what? statistically trivial voter fraud?

[George Gervin's Afro]

Non existent mass voter fraud puts our democracy at risk

[CosmicCowboy]

Many elderly lack the prerequisite birth certificate, simply by virtue of being born before such records were widely kept.

For people on tight incomes, it can be hard to get time off, and be able to afford the hassle if you don't have one.

It is a bigger barrier than you think for a lot of people.

I can't believe you are that gullible.

If they are elderly they are drawing social security. To get a social security number they had to have ID. As for you claim of employees not having time to get off and get an ID, legally they are required to have an ID (run through e-verify) to have a job.

[Wild Cobra]

solution to what? statistically trivial voter fraud?
Solution to getting ID for citizens so the fraud will not be possible to the lengths it is now.

There is fraud right now. So much circumstantial evidence of it. There just isn't the resources to check a system that has such lax requirements.

[Wild Cobra]

I can't believe you are that gullible.

If they are elderly they are drawing social security. To get a social security number they had to have ID. As for you claim of employees not having time to get off and get an ID, legally they are required to have an ID (run through e-verify) to have a job.
I think it's just all an excuse so liberals can continue with the fraud.

[Winehole23]

what fraud? please be specific.

[Wild Cobra]

what fraud? please be specific.
You never hear of it unless you listen to media outside of the mainstream media.

Here in Oregon, we had several incidents reported in the past. We have mail in voting. A few years back in Washington State, the current governor lost against the republican. they kept finding democrat ballots on the two or three recounts to put her over the top. One set of ballots found were so suspicions, people should have been investigated, gone to trial, and jailed. It was obvious fraud inside the elections office of King county.

You've heard of the dead voting... It's no joke. Without verification, people can vote under multiple names. You've seen incidents of ballot initiatives with obviously made up names. These same people with o integrity will game the voting as well.

Please... stop being so gullible. Just because we don't have direct examples doesn't mean it doesn't happen. It's a system unchecked and too easily manipulated.

[George Gervin's Afro]

what fraud? please be specific.

[ChumpDumper]

You never hear of it unless you listen to media outside of the mainstream media.

Here in Oregon, we had several incidents reported in the past. We have mail in voting. A few years back in Washington State, the current governor lost against the republican. they kept finding democrat ballots on the two or three recounts to put her over the top. One set of ballots found were so suspicions, people should have been investigated, gone to trial, and jailed. It was obvious fraud inside the elections office of King county.

You've heard of the dead voting... It's no joke. Without verification, people can vote under multiple names. You've seen incidents of ballot initiatives with obviously made up names. These same people with o integrity will game the voting as well.

Please... stop being so gullible. Just because we don't have direct examples doesn't mean it doesn't happen. It's a system unchecked and too easily manipulated.So it's just some shit you made up.

Sorry, Bush went on a crusade to find all the big bad voter fraud that you think the Democrats were perpetrating.

He didn't find shit.

It's not a problem. The only reason to support this scheme is to disenfranchise largely Democratic voters.

[Wild Cobra]

So it's just some shit you made up.

Sorry, Bush went on a crusade to find all the big bad voter fraud that you think the Democrats were perpetrating.

He didn't find shit.

It's not a problem. The only reason to support this scheme is to disenfranchise largely Democratic voters.
Maybe if those of you who don't believe it will stop accusing republicans of voter fraud...

Think about it. How many people claim there if fraud from the republicans, but then cry when the republicans want to put in measures to attempt to stop it? I see this hypocrisy as more evidence it's cheating being done by the left.

[TeyshaBlue]

Again...big broad statements. Zero cites.

[Wild Cobra]

Again...big broad statements. Zero cites.
Then maybe the democrats need to stop crying about stolen elections.

[Winehole23]

what is the relation b/w Dems crying about stolen elections and you waving your hands about voter fraud? I can't see it.

[TeyshaBlue]

ala boutons......confirmation bias precludes proof.

[Wild Cobra]

what is the relation b/w Dems crying about stolen elections and you waving your hands about voter fraud? I can't see it.
The way I see it, they complain about it, but then find excuses not to do anything about it. Tells me they just know there is cheating, but they also know they aren't cheating enough. Probably afraid they will lose too many votes in all elections if the cheating is stopped.

What is your opinion? Why do they cry about the chreating then find cause not to fix it?

[Wild Cobra]

ala boutons......confirmation bias precludes proof.
Whatever.

Couldn't this all be an attempted fix to the democrats crying about stolen elections? Do you have a solution to the problem, or are you just going to make pointless one liners?

[TeyshaBlue]

Still no cites of crying about "stolen elections", or your foregone conclusion that "they cry about the chreating then find cause not to fix it".

[TeyshaBlue]

Whatever.

Couldn't this all be an attempted fix to the democrats crying about stolen elections? Do you have a solution to the problem, or are you just going to make pointless one liners?

Again....what problem?

[Blake]

WC's extreme non-problems

[ChumpDumper]

Maybe if those of you who don't believe it will stop accusing republicans of voter fraud...

Think about it. How many people claim there if fraud from the republicans, but then cry when the republicans want to put in measures to attempt to stop it? I see this hypocrisy as more evidence it's cheating being done by the left.The few cases of voter fraud that have actually been prosecuted in the last decade -- Republican or Democrat -- were prosecuted under existing law. No new law is needed.

Don't get angry because you can't prove your case that one is needed.

[Winehole23]

Proposed voter ID amendment in Minnesota:


The Voter ID Amendment as proposed would: END ABSENTEE VOTING AND SAME-DAY VOTER REGISTRATION AS WE KNOW IT.

DENY THE VOTE TO OUR TROOPS. Military IDS are not valid according to the proposed voter ID policy; active-duty sservicemembers defending our constitutional right to vote overseas may not be able to vote themselves.


PREVENT BALLOT ACCESS FOR MINNESOTANS WITHOUT A CURRENT ADDRESS ON THEIR ID. It is estimated that as many as one in 10 eligible voters in America do NOT have the kind of photo ID the amendment would require. That’s hundreds of thousands of voting-age Minnesotans who could be prevented from voting by this radical amendment:


18 percent of elderly citizens do not have a government-issued photo ID.
15 percent of people earning less than $35,000 a year do not have a photo ID.
18 percent of citizens aged 18-24 do not have a government-issued photo ID with their current name and address.
10 percent of voters with disabilities do not have a photo ID.
25 percent of voting-age African-American citizens do not have a current, government-issued photo ID.

According to the Secretary of State’s office, the proposed photo ID amendment would affect more than 700,000 Minnesota voters. 215,000 registered voters who do not have a Minnesota drivers’ license or ID card with a CURRENT address on it, and another 500,000 eligible voters who use Election-Day registration.


Know the Facts about the Voter ID Amendment:


It’s INEFFECTIVE: Voter ID laws ONLY prevent voter impersonation, a crime for which NO ONE has ever been convicted in Minnesota.


It’s OVERLY RESTRICTIVE: The photo ID law envisioned for Minnesota would be even more restrictive than South Carolina’s, which the Department of Justice has sued to stop from taking effect. Minnesota would become the only state in the country where military IDs and passports could not be used to verify a legitimate voter’s identity.
http://www.ourvoicescountmn.org/?page_id=32

[Wild Cobra]

Proposed voter ID amendment in Minnesota:
http://www.ourvoicescountmn.org/?page_id=32
I don't trust what someone else says when they don't link the legislation. Do you? we only have the word of an activist.

[Winehole23]

Fair enough. Here is the text:

https://www.revisor.mn.gov/bin/bldbill.php?bill=H1597.0.html&session=ls87

[Winehole23]

First, the Voter ID amendment was amended. Here are some of the important changes:

1) An effective date of July 30, 2013: Representatives of the Association of Minnesota Counties testified that this deadline would be nearly impossible to meet, since it would be up to the 2013 Legislature to clarify the amendment through legislation.
2) The insertion of the phrase "as much as is practicable": Bill author Senator Newman testified this was intended to provide flexibility, but as a practical matter it will be up to the courts to decide what's "practicable."

The end of these two items highlight the biggest procedural problem with this amendment. Not only is it bad policy, if it passes it will force the legislature to pass a statute that implements the amendment, and then there would undoubtedly be a court battle about that. In fact, Newman's primary response to "red herring" concerns like "what would be acceptable forms of ID?" and "how much would it cost?" was "it depends on what the next Legislature does." And then there's a real conundrum - what happens if the amendment passes, the Legislature passes a Voter ID statute and Governor Dayton vetoes it? The courts would then have to step in to provide guidance to local election officials trapped between the Minnesota Constitution and the existing election statutes. It would be a mess of the highest order.

This is why legislating by amendment is a bad idea. In fact, it's not even legislating by amendment, it is amending to force legislation. This is not only an end run around the Governor, it ensures that people will be voting to support or oppose legislation that hasn't even been written yet. The Voter ID amendment is truly a pig in a poke.http://thecuckingstool.blogspot.com/2012/02/voter-id-amendment-is-pig-in-poke.html

[Winehole23]

The American Civil Liberties Union is using a cash reward to make a point about how clean Minnesota's elections system is.

Chuck Samuelson, who heads ACLU of Minnesota, carried $1,000 in cash to a State Capitol press conference Monday and offered it to anyone who can prove a case of voter impersonation in this state in the past 10 years.


"You must have proof of a legal charge, indictment or conviction for voter impersonation since January 1 of 2002," Samuelson told reporters. "Anecdotes, hearsay and unsubstantiated claims will not be accepted."


Samuelson asserted that cases of people posing as other voters -- the type of fraud voter ID systems are designed to prevent -- are virtually nonexistent in Minnesota.


"If you can't find a crime, why change the law?" Samuelson remarked. "Do we want to assume everyone is guilty of voter impersonation? And set a system up that's going to stop them from committing a crime we haven't been able to find yet?"
http://www.kare11.com/news/article/961958/396/ACLU-ups-the-ante-in-Minnesota-voter-photo-ID-debate

[Winehole23]

A November 2010 report from Citizens for Election Integrity Minnesota found only seven cases of voter impersonation investigations since 2008.http://www.mndaily.com/2012/02/02/voter-id-amendment-draws-opposition-state-capitol

[boutons_deux]

Voter Registration Errors: 1 In 8 Files Contain Significant Mistakes, Study Finds

Some 24 million voter registrations in the United States contain significant errors, including about 1.8 million dead people still on the rolls and many more approved to vote in multiple states

About 2.7 million people have active registrations in multiple states, including about 2,000 people registered in four or more states, according to the Pew report. Elections officials said it is difficult to track when someone has moved to another state without canceling their previous registration.

Some 1.8 million deceased people are still listed as active voters, according to the study, which is based on a computer analysis of a proprietary voter database used by Democrats. Researchers believe 12.7 million records do not reflect the current addresses of active voters while 12 million contain address inaccuracies, including those that make it unlikely that mail could reach them.

Some states have adopted laws in the last couple years to require photo IDs to vote – hoping it would prevent fraud even though examples of such cheating are rare. That tactic was one the Brennan Center is directly opposing.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/14/voter-registration-errors_n_1275401.html?view=print&comm_ref=false

[Wild Cobra]

Fair enough. Here is the text:

https://www.revisor.mn.gov/bin/bldbill.php?bill=H1597.0.html&session=ls87
And how is that harmful?

It doesn't disenfranchise the poor because it says the ID's will be free.

[RandomGuy]

The way I see it, they complain about it, but then find excuses not to do anything about it. Tells me they just know there is cheating, but they also know they aren't cheating enough. Probably afraid they will lose too many votes in all elections if the cheating is stopped.

What is your opinion? Why do they cry about the chreating then find cause not to fix it?
Seems to be a pretty clear statement of fact regarding the level of fraud involved. Care to provide a link to give the rest of us the information to conclude that the Democrats are probably afraid of losing elections if there was no fraud? Or
Or does the source of this sniglet happen to rhyme with "your grass"?

[RandomGuy]

And how is that harmful?

It doesn't disenfranchise the poor because it says the ID's will be free.
So how much do the copies of the documents needed to get the free i.d. cost?

[CosmicCowboy]

So how much do the copies of the documents needed to get the free i.d. cost?

I know when I got my passport the certified copy of my birth certificate was like $5.

[RandomGuy]

I know when I got my passport the certified copy of my birth certificate was like $5.

How much would it have cost if you were never given a birth certificate and had to get an original issued?

[ElNono]

I think it's a hassle that attacks a non-issue. So we're back again at throwing money at a non-problem. Obviously, if you think there's some "massive voter fraud" going on, we all would like to see you back that up.

[ChumpDumper]

"massive voter fraud"Bold red is proper form.

madrun optional :madrun

[CosmicCowboy]

How much would it have cost if you were never given a birth certificate and had to get an original issued?

Get real. If you were born in the 19th century you had a birth certificate. Fuck, My 92 year old father that grew up as poor white trash in bum-fuck East Texas has one.

[ElNono]

How much would it have cost if you were never given a birth certificate and had to get an original issued?

If I lose my naturalization certificate, it's $600 + months to get another one.

[ChumpDumper]

If I lose my naturalization certificate, it's $600 + months to get another one.Well, you shouldn't be allowed to vote anyway.

The system works!

[TeyshaBlue]

Well, you shouldn't be allowed to vote anyway.

The system works!

:lol

[RandomGuy]

Get real. If you were born in the 19th century you had a birth certificate. Fuck, My 92 year old father that grew up as poor white trash in bum-fuck East Texas has one.

So now we have proof of how much it cost you to get a passport, and the fact that your father has a birth certificate.

Yay.

This is supposed to do what exactly?

It hardly constitutes proof of anything, but hell let's give you the point.

You still haven't proven, or even tried to prove that this new goverment requirement solves an actual problem.

How much is it going to cost the government to impliment? Even if the cost is free to the people getting the ID someone's gotta pay for it.

Which taxes do you want to increase to pay for it?

[RandomGuy]

CC let me know when you from your own passport costs and your dad's birth certificates to actually having something that can reasonably show this study was wrong.

http://www.brennancenter.org/page/-/d/download_file_39242.pdf

I'm not asking for the moon, here.

[Wild Cobra]

Seems to be a pretty clear statement of fact regarding the level of fraud involved. Care to provide a link to give the rest of us the information to conclude that the Democrats are probably afraid of losing elections if there was no fraud? Or
Or does the source of this sniglet happen to rhyme with "your grass"?
Can't you apply a gram or two of common sense, or are your gram measurements in Hopium?

[Winehole23]

And how is that harmful?

It doesn't disenfranchise the poor because it says the ID's will be free.lol assuming maximum efficiency of unfunded state mandates. The law isn't needed.in the first place. Turns out, voter impersonation isn't very common.

[Wild Cobra]

So how much do the copies of the documents needed to get the free i.d. cost?
Most people do have such documents, and if they don't should be scrutinized. I can see provisions made to allow the legal voting status if you can show you have been a resident for so long. There will be records like the schools you attended.

Every one should be in favor of insuring election integrity. I wonder about the integrity of those who don't care about integrity. Think about that for a bit.

[Wild Cobra]

Turns out, voter impersonation isn't very common.
Hard to say since it isn't looked for now, is it?

[ElNono]

Alleged voting fraud isn't investigated? Is that the claim?

[Wild Cobra]

Alleged voting fraud isn't investigated? Is that the claim?
In part.

The democrats keep claiming voter fraud, but them never want policies to look into it. I see this as republicans calling democrats on their bullshit. As i see how easy it would be to get away with it here in Oregon, I know it has to be happening. A long time ago, I brought up, maybe quoted the Oregon voters pamphlet on how to get registered. I'll bet other states are as lax as well. I can go by Oregon law and make multiple false ID's, and vote. They never follow up.

[Winehole23]

Technicalities and hypertechnicalities historically have hindered more voters than crooks. This law aims a bazooka at a fruit fly; eligible voters will receive the blast.

[ElNono]

In part.

Evidence?


The democrats keep claiming voter fraud

Evidence?


A long time ago, I brought up, maybe quoted the Oregon voters pamphlet on how to get registered. I'll bet other states are as lax as well. I can go by Oregon law and make multiple false ID's, and vote. They never follow up.

Possession of a fake ID is a felony. Why don't you take a chance and then tell us how it goes?

[ChumpDumper]

Sorry WC, there simply isn't any evidence of the problems you are trying to pull out of your ass.

[Winehole23]

Under Section 5 (http://www.justice.gov/crt/about/vot/sec_5/about.php) of the Voting Rights Act, DOJ blocks (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-03-12/texas-voter-identification-law-is-blocked-by-justice-department-as-biased.html) the Texas voter ID law.

[Winehole23]

Wisconsin voter ID law found unconstitutional (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-03-12/wisconsin-voter-identification-law-is-blocked-by-second-state-court-judge.html):


Article III is unambiguous, and means exactly what it says. It creates both necessary and sufficient requirements for qualified voters. Every United States citizen 18 years of age or older who resides in an election district in Wisconsin is a qualified elector in that district, unless excluded by duly enacted laws barring certain convicted felons or adjudicated incompetents/partially incompetents.

The government may not disqualify an elector who possesses those qualifications on the grounds that the voter does not satisfy additional statutorily-created qualifications not contained in Article III, such as a photo ID.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/12/wisconsin-voter-id-law-unconstitutional_n_1339830.html

[Capt Bringdown]

http://exiledonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/lickspittle-200x200.png

[boutons_deux]

"democrats keep claiming voter fraud, but them never want policies to look into it"

dubya/dickhead/rove sent all their US Attorneys after voter fraud for years (the one US Att that sent a Repug Congressman to prison for corruption got fired) and they prosecuted exactly one lady for voter fraud.

Organized voter fraud on a scale large enough to throw an election would be extremely difficult to execute.

Much easier way to throw an election is ALEC-driven Repug suppression of Dem voters, screwing up voter rolls, intimidating voters into not voting, election day road blocks (all done in FL in 2000, and certainly elsewhere), websites lying about voting days, voting procedures, closing dates, etc, etc.

[boutons_deux]

I don't know where this number comes from, can't find it.

"At issue are about 600,000 registered Texas voters who may not have a state-issued license or ID"

http://www.newstaco.com/2011/12/01/600000-texas-voters-are-too-many-to-ignore/

You Repug assholes don't understand what marginal, impoverished lives millions of HaveNot Americans have. You want to disenfranchise AMERICAN CITIZENS because they are likely to vote against the Haves.

Assume the 660K is a good number to disenfranchise, then figure out how to organize a voter fraud strategy so those 600K vote

One also must ask why it's the Repugs who fight against review, criticism, paper-trails, etc, of Repug-supplied electronic voting machines.

[Wild Cobra]

In Oregon, you can register by mail, and never prove anything. They simply send you a card, and ballots when voting time comes. You may have a single person living in one residence under a dozen or so names. Of course, since it is never checked up on, nobody will ever get caught.

[RandomGuy]

In Oregon, you can register by mail, and never prove anything. They simply send you a card, and ballots when voting time comes. You may have a single person living in one residence under a dozen or so names. Of course, since it is never checked up on, nobody will ever get caught.

Soooo... you still don't have any proof this happens on a scale large enough to affect elections?

In Texas, anybody can walk into a bank with a gun, point it at a teller, then ask for, and get free money.

[Wild Cobra]

Soooo... you still don't have any proof this happens on a scale large enough to affect elections?

In Texas, anybody can walk into a bank with a gun, point it at a teller, then ask for, and get free money.
I agree that is a weak point, but that's the problem. There is no proof because there is no enforcement. We simply want some form of enforcement. How can the law enforcement and judicial system see what it doesn't look for?

[RandomGuy]

I agree that is a weak point, but that's the problem. There is no proof because there is no enforcement. We simply want some form of enforcement. How can the law enforcement and judicial system see what it doesn't look for?

In Texas, anybody with a small crew, some jacks, and a large tractor trailer can steal a house.

We don't know how much this happens because there is no enforcement. We simply want some form of enforcement for house theft. How can law enforcement and judicial system see what it doesn't look for?


You haven't proven it is a problem that requires extra enforcement of existing laws.

For someone who hates government waste, asking for resources to fix a non-existant problem seems... hypocritical.

C'est va?

[xrayzebra]

Maybe we could just hire "Lifelock" to guard our polls here in Texas. They would
love it, since according to Dimm-o-craps it never happens.

Free money for "lifelock".

[RandomGuy]

Maybe we could just hire "Lifelock" to guard our polls here in Texas. They would
love it, since according to Dimm-o-craps it never happens.

Free money for "lifelock".

Prove that it does.

I'm not saying it never happens.

I am saying that I have not seen any data that it happens to a large degree or markedly affects elections.

Do *you* have this proof?

At this point I feel like I am asking for proof of Bigfoot, given the way Republicans are ignoring it.


R: "I just know it is a problem and it requires an expensive fix that will probably keep real people from voting"

D: "um, are you sure about that, could I see some proof it is a problem?"

R: "No. Take my word for it."

D: "I would prefer to have some data on it, before trying to fix a problem"

R: "Havent you heard, this is an easy crime to commit"

D: "um, that isn't what I asked. You don't actually have any proof, do you?"

R: "You just think it never happens, what an idiot."

D: (sighs)
------------------------------------

(sighs)

[Wild Cobra]

At this point I feel like I am asking for proof of Bigfoot, given the way Republicans are ignoring it.

LOL... Bad example.

Some states seem to err on the side Bigfoot exists. There are now laws on the books in some places that protect Bigfoot as an endangered species. If anyone shoots Bigfoot to prove his existence, they will be in a heap of legal trouble.