Can someone explain to me why...

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

America has the right to dictate which countries do/don't have nukes? It's an honest question. When/how did America earn control over whether or not other countries can have nukes? Serious answers only please.

[BUMP]

Manifest Destiny has turned into Global Destiny i saaaaaaaaaaiiiiiiiiiiiidddddddddddddd

http://www.tshirthell.com/shirts/products/a355/a355.gif

[fraga]

Haven't you heard...we're the Global Police...

[weebo]

When you have more bombs than other countries, you can dictate whatever the hell you want.

[boutons_deux]

Exceptional America is doing God's work

[spursncowboys]

The same could be said about felons/police.

[Koolaid_Man]

America has the right to dictate which countries do/don't have nukes? It's an honest question. When/how did America earn control over whether or not other countries can have nukes? Serious answers only please.


when slavery began...it was the blueprint to world domination..:lol

Listen it's always been about who has the power translation guns ...America is the world power so it's literally do as I say or else your ass is grass...and tbh I don't have a real problem with it in it's current form. We can't and don't control other countries that have a powerful military such as China, Germany, etc...however, there a too many rouge elements out there that need to be dominated...

Listen I don't beleive that just because you're born you have the right to live..there are tons of bad guys out there whether people looking to break into your home or world rulers / dictators killing on a mass scale...they're all the same to me...and I believe in the death penalty 1000% those fuckers should not be allowed to live....tbqh...

but every dog has it's day...our turn will come soon and I fear it will be at the hands of China...I just hope I'm long gone and any future kids of mine should be safely relocated to Canada or married to a Chinese citizen for protection...:lol

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

The same could be said about felons/police.
:lmao wow what a retarded comparison. Felons are breaking laws IN THIS COUNTRY, where the American government has jurisdiction.

[BUMP]

The same could be said about felons/police.

tbh i missed the part where police take away someone's right to have a gun because they look scary

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

tbh i missed the part where police take away someone's right to have a gun because they look scary
:lmao

[spursncowboys]

:lmao wow what a retarded comparison. Felons are breaking laws IN THIS COUNTRY, where the American government has jurisdiction.

Lol who is wanting nukes? People consistently violating human rights, trade regs, and international borders.

Most common sense reasons your professor must not have brought up.like a nuclear arms race. such as how if Iran gets them, then Saudis Arabia will develop them. Or the fact that Iran will give the info to SCIRI, JAN, and Hezbollah.who will give it to Al qeada, the real IRA, and other groups.

[spursncowboys]

Since dok can't have an original thought without it approved by his professors, I wouldn't imagine you could use cognitive thinking.

[baseline bum]

Lol who is wanting nukes? People consistently violating human rights, trade regs, and international borders.


We already have nukes though.

[BUMP]

:cry dammit we can't let the Iranian boogeyman make one nuke or else it will all go downhill :cry

[ChumpDumper]

Lol who is wanting nukes? People consistently violating human rights, trade regs, and international borders.

Most common sense reasons your professor must not have brought up.like a nuclear arms race. such as how if Iran gets them, then Saudis Arabia will develop them. Or the fact that Iran will give the info to SCIRI, JAN, and Hezbollah.who will give it to Al qeada, the real IRA, and other groups.Why didn't Pakistan already do that?

lol Saudis Arabia

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Lol who is wanting nukes? People consistently violating human rights, trade regs, and international borders.

Most common sense reasons your professor must not have brought up.like a nuclear arms race. such as how if Iran gets them, then Saudis Arabia will develop them. Or the fact that Iran will give the info to SCIRI, JAN, and Hezbollah.who will give it to Al qeada, the real IRA, and other groups.
:lol as usual, your best argument is an ad-hominem attack claiming that I'm just listening to my professor (which is odd because Iran having nukes isn't a topic that appears very much in accounting, finance, or business classes).

You also never answered the question. Why does the US have the right to control Iran's nuclear capabilities? I understand you think it'll be bad if Iran had nuclear weapons, explain why the US is allowed to control what a sovereign country does.

It also says something that your only argument is a slippery slope claiming that if Iran got nukes, then every terrorist group in the middle east will have nukes. Regardless of the fact Al-Qaeda is powerless these days and has no money or resources, somehow they'll get nukes if Iran gets nukes.

[AFBlue]

You actually posed two separate questions...

1. Why does America have the right? Tough question, but I think you could argue that unstable leaders possessing nuclear weapons are a legitimate threat to our sovereignty.

2. When/how did America earn control? Easy. When the Soviet Union fell and America became the pre-eminent superpower, both militarily and economically. That level of global influence has waned over the past decade, but we still have strong allies that will support our agenda for the most part.

[ChumpDumper]

Is Iran's leader really unstable?

[Ginobilly]

:lol as usual, your best argument is an ad-hominem attack claiming that I'm just listening to my professor (which is odd because Iran having nukes isn't a topic that appears very much in accounting, finance, or business classes).

You also never answered the question. Why does the US have the right to control Iran's nuclear capabilities? I understand you think it'll be bad if Iran had nuclear weapons, explain why the US is allowed to control what a sovereign country does.

It also says something that your only argument is a slippery slope claiming that if Iran got nukes, then every terrorist group in the middle east will have nukes. Regardless of the fact Al-Qaeda is powerless these days and has no money or resources, somehow they'll get nukes if Iran gets nukes.

When your the top military power in the world, your constantly paranoid about others bringing you down or surpassing your power. We are the top alpha-male in the world when it comes to military, and we want to remain that way for as long as possible. Rome was a super power for what a thousand something years?? We want to be the same!

[Spurs da champs]

Where is the proof that Iran is making a nuke?
Where is the proof they want to attack us?
Their military has no chance against ours even with a nuke, we are just getting brainwashed by Israel to do all their work for them.
And honestly man the Soviet union may have fell, but they still remain a danger to just in terms of military, as does China, I hope we don't attack Iran because it might ignite into WW3.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

You actually posed two separate questions...

1. Why does America have the right? Tough question, but I think you could argue that unstable leaders possessing nuclear weapons are a legitimate threat to our sovereignty.

2. When/how did America earn control? Easy. When the Soviet Union fell and America became the pre-eminent superpower, both militarily and economically. That level of global influence has waned over the past decade, but we still have strong allies that will support our agenda for the most part.


Which allies do we have left other than Israel that support our imperialistic ambitions in the middle east? The war in Iraq alienated almost all of them. I can also think of two very powerful countries (perhaps the 2nd and 3rd most powerful countries in the world) that are adamantly against the US fucking with Iran.

As far as the part about America being the world's superpower, you're saying that if country A is stronger than country B economically and militarily then country A is allowed to control country B however it wants and sanction it for whatever reason it wants? That's a really scary way to think, "The one with the guns can do whatever he wants!" Thank god our country isn't set up like that.

[ElNono]

Which allies do we have left other than Israel that support our imperialistic ambitions in the middle east?

I would wager India can be "convinced" (aka paid up) to back us up, tbh.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

When your the top military power in the world, your constantly paranoid about others bringing you down or surpassing your power.
:lmao and Iran of all countries is a country to worry about bringing America down or surpassing its power?


We are the top alpha-male in the world when it comes to military, and we want to remain that way for as long as possible.
And you think Iran is a true threat to America's status as the "alpha-male" of the world?


Rome was a super power for what a thousand something years?? We want to be the same!
If this is serious, then holy fuck is all I have to say.

[boutons_deux]

"could argue that unstable leaders possessing nuclear weapons are a legitimate threat to our sovereignty."

The fatal counter-argument is that Mutual Assured Destruction has kept nuclear out of the game for 65 years, except for America murdering non-Christian, non-white non-combatants for political ends, aka, terrorism.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Where is the proof that Iran is making a nuke?
Where is the proof they want to attack us?
Americans like AFBlue have already been brainwashed into thinking Iraq had WMDs that threatened us and were gonna be used on us, those Americans can easily be tricked all over again :lol



And honestly man the Soviet union may have fell, but they still remain a danger to just in terms of military, as does China, I hope we don't attack Iran because it might ignite into WW3.
Exactly, Russia and China are both allies to Iran and have no obligation to side with the US. A war in Iran would also probably lead to our deficit getting even more out of control and ultimately defaulting. China won't be very pleased with the US when they default on a payment to China because they're busy spending money occupying China's ally.

[ElNono]

The right answer is we don't have any rights. But the dynamics of world politics are much more complicated than that. Frankly, nuclear proliferation is a real treat.

Considering you have a bunch of weirdos talking about the "day of reckoning" and willing to push the buttons necessary to kill "the axis of evil" right here at home, what makes you think there's no such weirdos ready to do the same in the name of whatever flavor of deity they have?

[AFBlue]

Which allies do we have left other than Israel that support our imperialistic ambitions in the middle east? The war in Iraq alienated almost all of them. I can also think of two very powerful countries (perhaps the 2nd and 3rd most powerful countries in the world) that are adamantly against the US fucking with Iran.

As far as the part about America being the world's superpower, you're saying that if country A is stronger than country B economically and militarily then country A is allowed to control country B however it wants and sanction it for whatever reason it wants? That's a really scary way to think, "The one with the guns can do whatever he wants!" Thank god our country isn't set up like that.

Most of the UN countries support sanctions against Iran if they attempt to build nuclear weapons. Yes, China and Russia oppose more serious action in Iran, but I doubt they would actively support Iran getting nuclear weapons.

As for your second point, I'm not saying that's how it should be, that's just how it is. When you have the money and the guns people tend to listen when you speak. After the Soviet Union fell we had the most money and the most guns.

[AFBlue]

"could argue that unstable leaders possessing nuclear weapons are a legitimate threat to our sovereignty."

The fatal counter-argument is that Mutual Assured Destruction has kept nuclear out of the game for 65 years, except for America murdering non-Christian, non-white non-combatants for political ends, aka, terrorism.

MAD only works if both sides care about not dying.

[ElNono]

tbh, I think I just opened another can of worms... but since I already did, we'll just talk about it.

DoK, we put in control a dude that "god told him" we had to start a war in Iraq. I mean, what if the phone to god is kinda broken and he hears he should wipe the world clean?

That's bad enough. The question is do we want to have more of those or less of those?

[AFBlue]

Americans like AFBlue have already been brainwashed into thinking Iraq had WMDs that threatened us and were gonna be used on us, those Americans can easily be tricked all over again :lol

Exactly, Russia and China are both allies to Iran and have no obligation to side with the US. A war in Iran would also probably lead to our deficit getting even more out of control and ultimately defaulting. China won't be very pleased with the US when they default on a payment to China because they're busy spending money occupying China's ally.

First, you don't know me...stop trying to act like you do.

Second, the whole argument of the U.S. defaulting on a loan to China is ridiculous. Besides, who says occupying Iran is the logical course of action for preventing them from getting nuclear weapons?

[Winehole23]

MAD only works if both sides care about not dying.is it your impression one side doesn't?

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Most of the UN countries support sanctions against Iran if they attempt to build nuclear weapons.
They don't oppose sanctions but sanctions are never the end of it, you're more likely to go to war with a country after you sanction it. If the US sanctioned Iran and stopped there, I wouldn't give a shit either.


Yes, China and Russia oppose more serious action in Iran, but I doubt they would actively support Iran getting nuclear weapons.
Maybe they don't actually support Iran getting nukes but they also don't want Iran's oil getting under US control.

You're also kidding yourself if you think this is only about Iran having nukes. There are plenty of other countries with unstable governments that have nuclear ambitions, the only difference is Iran happens to have tons of oil. The US, China and Russia wouldn't give two shits about Iran if it wasn't for oil.


As for your second point, I'm not saying that's how it should be, that's just how it is. When you have the money and the guns people tend to listen when you speak. After the Soviet Union fell we had the most money and the most guns.
History has proven that when world powers get too brazen and too imperialistic, they eventually collapse completely or lose a lot of power (Roman Empire, British Empire, French Empire, Nazi Germany, Soviet Union, etc.). The, "We'll put a boot up your ass, it's the American way!" attitude is what's gonna be this countries undoing.

[AFBlue]

tbh, I think I just opened another can of worms... but since I already did, we'll just talk about it.

DoK, we put in control a dude that "god told him" we had to start a war in Iraq. I mean, what if the phone to god is kinda broken and he hears he should wipe the world clean?

That's bad enough. The question is do we want to have more of those or less of those?

I don't think you opened a can of worms. It's a legitimate point that we'd rather have less countries with less nukes across the globe. And I think that's what most global leaders had in mind when they signed the Non-proliferation Treaty.

[cheguevara]

tbh, I think I just opened another can of worms... but since I already did, we'll just talk about it.

DoK, we put in control a dude that "god told him" we had to start a war in Iraq. I mean, what if the phone to god is kinda broken and he hears he should wipe the world clean?

That's bad enough. The question is do we want to have more of those or less of those?

Wake up. Bush was just a puppet put in control to advance the neocon ideology. The ideology that they could take over an oil rich country and have a eutopia for their corporations. Cheney/Rove were the ones actually pulling the strings on behalf of the neocons.

These neocons are alive and well and would still be close advisers to guys like Romney, Santorum, Perry and Gingrich.

[ElNono]

I don't think you opened a can of worms. It's a legitimate point that we'd rather have less countries with less nukes across the globe. And I think that's what most global leaders had in mind when they signed the Non-proliferation Treaty.

I think it's a noble goal. I just can't say with a straight face that those countries that don't have nukes don't get extremely nervous when we have our own case of a nutjob in control of pushing the buttons.

[ElNono]

Wake up. Bush was just a puppet put in control to advance the neocon ideology. The ideology that they could take over an oil rich country and have a eutopia for their corporations. Cheney/Rove were the ones actually pulling the strings on behalf of the neocons.

These neocons are alive and well and would still be close advisers to guys like Romney, Santorum, Perry and Gingrich.

che guevara is a Ron Paul supporter... the real Che is probably rolling in his grave right now :lmao

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

MAD only works if both sides care about not dying.
Maybe ahmadinejad doesn't care about a few thousand (or even more) Iranian people dying, but his own life is a different story, and he'd be dead pretty quickly if he ever nuked the US. On top of that he'd lose all the support he has from China and Russia. Iran would be a parking lot if it ever nuked the US and ahmadinejad isn't stupid enough to not know that.

[cheguevara]

che guevara is a Ron Paul supporter... the real Che is probably rolling in his grave right now :lmao

:rolleyes El Che would be cheering for Ron Paul to the US presidency

Ron Paul Revolution

Liberty or death

any of those ring a bell?

[ChumpDumper]

Maybe ahmadinejad doesn't care about a few thousand (or even more) Iranian people dying, but his own life is a different story, and he'd be dead pretty quickly if he ever nuked the US. On top of that he'd lose all the support he has from China and Russia. Iran would be a parking lot if it ever nuked the US and ahmadinejad isn't stupid enough to not know that.Ahmadinejad wouldn't even be making the call whether to use nukes or not.

[ChumpDumper]

:rolleyes El Che would be cheering for Ron Paul to the US presidencyYou either know nothing about Ron Paul or nothing about Che Guevara.

I can't tell which tbh.

[AFBlue]

is it your impression one side doesn't?

"Is there art that is more beautiful, more divine, and more eternal than the art of martyrdom? A nation with martyrdom knows no captivity."

- Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

Just sayin'

[ElNono]

:rolleyes El Che would be cheering for Ron Paul to the US presidency

If you truly like what el che did, you would stop posting as him in the political forum right now, tbh... :lol

[Spurs da champs]

:rolleyes El Che would be cheering for Ron Paul to the US presidency

Ron Paul Revolution

Liberty or death

any of those ring a bell?

The man said he wouldn't support the civil rights act so much for liberty?

[ChumpDumper]

"Is there art that is more beautiful, more divine, and more eternal than the art of martyrdom? A nation with martyrdom knows no captivity."

- Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

Just sayin'Not the actual leader of Iran.

Just sayin'.

[cheguevara]

If you truly like what el che did, you would stop posting as him in the political forum right now, tbh... :lol

Yet El Che is here, and cheering for a Ron Paul Revolucion

and he ain't going nowhere :lol

[Spurs da champs]

Not the actual leader of Iran.

Just sayin'.

Exactly the Ayatollah makes all the final choices, the president seems like a puppet to me.

[ElNono]

"Is there art that is more beautiful, more divine, and more eternal than the art of martyrdom? A nation with martyrdom knows no captivity."

- Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

Just sayin'

"I just want you to know that, when we talk about war, we're really talking about peace."

- George W. Bush

Just sayin'

[cheguevara]

Exactly the Ayatollah makes all the final choices, the president seems like a puppet to me.

replace Ayatollah with Corporations and you are describing the United States of America

:lol

[ElNono]

Yet El Che is here, and cheering for a Ron Paul Revolucion

and he ain't going nowhere :lol

:lol

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

ElNono actually brings up a good point about other countries probably being scared about the neo-conservative influence over America's government. When a country like Iraq that posed no threat to the US and never showed any aggression towards the US gets invaded and sent into chaos by the US government (something it'll probably never recover from), it probably makes the people of Iran a little uneasy.

[ChumpDumper]

The US would have just loved it if Oppenheimer and Fermi were blown up in their cars on their way home.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Oh great, Crookshanks viewing thread. Brace yourselves for something really fuckin retarded.

[Winehole23]

"Is there art that is more beautiful, more divine, and more eternal than the art of martyrdom? A nation with martyrdom knows no captivity."

- Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

Just sayin'"I'm a dinner jacket" does not operate the nuclear button. Just sayin.

[clambake]

Oh great, Crookshanks viewing thread. Brace yourselves for something really fuckin retarded.

:lmao

[spursncowboys]

"I just want you to know that, when we talk about war, we're really talking about peace."

- George W. Bush

Just sayin'

Bush is in office?

[4>0rings]

TBH, it's because my country comes first, I could give a rats ass about any other. I want to be safe and if that's war mongering on some sand wasteland so that doesn't happen... whatever. Big man on the block makes the rules.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

The same could be said about felons/police.

At least the police have the legitimacy of being authorized by republican representational constitution ie the consent of the governed. The UN much less the US by itself has no such legitimacy over anyone not in the security council.

[Agloco]

Americans like AFBlue have already been brainwashed into thinking Iraq had WMDs that threatened us and were gonna be used on us, those Americans can easily be tricked all over again :lol


So your argument is that Iran 1) Doesn't have or won't develop these WMDs in the near future and 2) Won't use them to threaten American interests? Notice the word threaten.


Maybe ahmadinejad doesn't care about a few thousand (or even more) Iranian people dying, but his own life is a different story, and he'd be dead pretty quickly if he ever nuked the US. On top of that he'd lose all the support he has from China and Russia. Iran would be a parking lot if it ever nuked the US and ahmadinejad isn't stupid enough to not know that.

Why do you keep invoking this example?
Do you honestly believe that Iran is only a threat to the US if they can land a missle in North America? American economic interests extend far beyond this continent. Maybe your business background can shed some light on this for us.

[Agloco]

And to answer the OP, nothing gives the US "the right" to do anything.

Until another country feels its in their best interest to check US ambitions, thats the way its going to be though.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

So your argument is that Iran 1) Doesn't have or won't develop these WMDs in the near future and 2) Won't use them to threaten American interests? Notice the word threaten.



Why do you keep invoking this example?
Do you honestly believe that Iran is only a threat to the US if they can land a missle in North America? American economic interests extend far beyond this continent. Maybe your business background can shed some light on this for us.
So what economic interests does Iran threaten if they have a nuke? Enlighten me please.

PS - :lol trying to pretend we go to war over our "economic interests" being threatened. The Republicans like Santorum who want a war with Iraq are saying it strictly because they claim Americans aren't safe if Iraq develops a nuke.

[Spur_Fanatic]

Notice that the USA has no problem with countries that are not traditional allies, but have the nuclear power and know-how to produce bombs.

[Spur_Fanatic]

And Iran with nukes is a risk.

[BUMP]

TBH, it's because my country comes first, I could give a rats ass about any other. I want to be safe and if that's war mongering on some sand wasteland so that doesn't happen... whatever. Big man on the block makes the rules.

:lol

[MannyIsGod]

Since dok can't have an original thought without it approved by his professors, I wouldn't imagine you could use cognitive thinking.

Israel has nukes alreaady.

[MannyIsGod]

:rolleyes El Che would be cheering for Ron Paul to the US presidency

Ron Paul Revolution

Liberty or death

any of those ring a bell?

:lol

No way Che would support Ron Paul dude.

[MannyIsGod]

In any event, as for the OP - no country has a right to dictate anything to another country but its not about rights. Its about how much power you have. The US has the power to bully countries both economically and militarily. The problem is that when countries don't care about your economic power they can proceed. Iran "cares" about sanctions but not enough to make them stop antagonizing things. North Korea's leaders don't care. And both countries have enough military power to make a military option unrealistic.

There's also the blowback we get from our preemptive war policies. It makes countries all that more likely to look for a nuclear deterrent.

All in all the danger from nukes is really overblown. They're a perfect weapon for terrorists to use if they can get one, but countries are a different matter all together. I fear biological weapons FAR more than a suitcase nuke and so should any rational person. Then again, any rational person would fear being on the road each and every day and heart disease far more than either of those.

[ElNono]

Bush is in office?

Bush wasn't in office at one point?

[mingus]

i think we're wasting far too much money, risking too many American lives, and wasting time trying to police the world. all we need is a massive military of our own along with militarily formidable allies. the crazy bastard in Iran is bluffing.

[TDMVPDPOY]

an nuke arm iran is no threat to anyone

the only threat to anyone is fkn israel, pushin buttons without consenting the wider community, then shit happens, they run to the UN for help and making up stories

[FuzzyLumpkins]

In any event, as for the OP - no country has a right to dictate anything to another country but its not about rights. Its about how much power you have. The US has the power to bully countries both economically and militarily. The problem is that when countries don't care about your economic power they can proceed. Iran "cares" about sanctions but not enough to make them stop antagonizing things. North Korea's leaders don't care. And both countries have enough military power to make a military option unrealistic.

There's also the blowback we get from our preemptive war policies. It makes countries all that more likely to look for a nuclear deterrent.

All in all the danger from nukes is really overblown. They're a perfect weapon for terrorists to use if they can get one, but countries are a different matter all together. I fear biological weapons FAR more than a suitcase nuke and so should any rational person. Then again, any rational person would fear being on the road each and every day and heart disease far more than either of those.

Iran and North Korea's militaries do not preclude anything. Russia and China's are another matter.

[Pelicans78]

Is Iran's leader really unstable?

To be fair, Iran's leader isn't really their leader. He's just a puppet and mouthpiece for the clerics.

[boutons_deux]

Does the anybody really think the theocratic, authoritarian, wealthy Mullahs really want to start a war, have Iran and their power position (the Army and secret police) destroyed, while millions of Iranians are ready to overthrow them for having stolen the 2009 election?

it's all neocon/oilco/MIC war-mongering to suck $100Bs out of US taxpayer pockets.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

^As mentioned already, the clerics in Iran were rapidly losing the support of the people and almost lost the last election in Iran largely because Obama let them be and didn't act like what goes on in Iran is America's business. Of course, Republicans in this country who act as lap dogs to Israel and make statements that threaten Iran make it incredibly easy for the clerics in Iran to unite the country in support of them.

The only reason Iran is our enemy in the first place is because of what the CIA did in 1953.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Does the anybody really think the theocratic, authoritarian, wealthy Mullahs really want to start a war, have Iran and their power position (the Army and secret police) destroyed, while millions of Iranians are ready to overthrow them for having stolen the 2009 election?

Apparently yes. It might completely go against common sense for the leaders of Iran to deliberately want go to war with a country that can wipe away all their power/money and have them hung like Hussein was, but Rick Santorum and Fox News are saying Iran is a terrorist threat, so it must be true!

[Pelicans78]

The clerics do want to stir up trouble just to unite the people on their side. American/Isreali aggression will do that. That's why they're trying to antagonize the U.S.A. I think if they're left alone, their power will disintergrate.

[Pelicans78]

Rick Santorum is a typical neo-con who supported and will support policies that will fuck this country up just like in the previous decade.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

The clerics do want to stir up trouble just to unite the people on their side. American/Isreali aggression will do that. That's why they're trying to antagonize the U.S.A. I think if they're left alone, their power will disintergrate.
How have they antagonized the US? The US has basically initiated all the tension that's recently been created. Attempting to create a nuke isn't an attempt to antagonize the US, it's our own fault for being narcissistic enough to think it is.

[baseline bum]

Dickheads like Santorum are just listening to our nation's dangerous clerics Hagee and Robertson tbh. Fucking holy men, always wanting to kill anything that doesn't conform to their asinine superstitions.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

And Israel's dangerous clerics who the rich Jews in this country support tbh.

Neo-cons don't sincerely give two shits about Israel. They deliberately show support for Israel hoping for the Jewish vote and Jewish campaign money. It's no different than abortion and the religious right vote. Does anyone seriously think the people who sent thousands of Americans to die in Iraq give two shits about a bunch of unborn fetuses :lol

[Pelicans78]

How have they antagonized the US? The US has basically initiated all the tension that's recently been created. Attempting to create a nuke isn't an attempt to antagonize the US, it's our own fault for being narcissistic enough to think it is.

I guess not antagonize, other than maybe whatever is going in the Straites of Homuz. They do use Hezbollah to annoy Isreal which happened a couple of years ago, but the U.S. didn't stop the Pakis from getting a nuke and I don't think a nuclear Iran is that big of a threat either. Plus, they're not that close to getting a nuclear bomb. I think if left alone, their power will crumble in the near future.

[baseline bum]

And Israel's dangerous clerics who the rich Jews in this country support tbh.

Neo-cons don't sincerely give two shits about Israel. They deliberately show support for Israel hoping for the Jewish vote and Jewish campaign money. It's no different than abortion and the religious right vote. Does anyone seriously think the people who sent thousands of Americans to die in Iraq give two shits about a bunch of unborn fetuses :lol

Any time between 0 years and 17.99999 years, fuck the kids. Less than 0 when they can wedge their religion in is good and once they hit 18 and can go die for them in Iraq, the kids become important again.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

And if the kid doesn't wanna join the military once he turns 18, fuck him then too. If a kid who turns 18 is underprivileged and wants to go to college, his only options are serving a few tours in Iraq to get his education paid for or burying himself in a mountain of student loans. We don't have the money for unimportant bullshit like education when we're busy spending trillions keeping troops deployed in countries like Germany and Japan.

[mavs>spurs]

And if the kid doesn't wanna join the military once he turns 18, fuck him then too. If a kid who turns 18 is underprivileged and wants to go to college, his only options are serving a few tours in Iraq to get his education paid for or burying himself in a mountain of student loans. We don't have the money for unimportant bullshit like education when we're busy spending trillions keeping troops deployed in countries like Germany and Japan.

:lmao that education thing is going to be the downfall of america. other countries who value education are simply going to surpass us eventually, definitely within our lifetime. and in the short run, the student loan bubble bursting won't be pretty, it's a lot bigger than people realize. not sure that it will top the mortgage crisis of 08 or anything, but it won't be pretty either.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Tbh it's only a matter of time before banks start issuing bonds and other securities tied to student loan payments while Goldman Sachs starts buying credit default swaps on them :lol

[spursncowboys]

How have they antagonized the US? The US has basically initiated all the tension that's recently been created. Attempting to create a nuke isn't an attempt to antagonize the US, it's our own fault for being narcissistic enough to think it is.

Any military member killed from an efp. All the political prisoners in Ian. Lol at the fact that we as an American government are to shallow to allow a country who funds groups that bomb and kill our allies on a daily basis to develop a nuke.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

lol "our allies"
lol Israel
lol people who want the government pouring billions into aiding Israel when our country is bankrupt

Sorry but helping the Palestinians isn't "antagonizing" the US. It's simply helping people who are being oppressed by the Israeli government.

[Agloco]

So what economic interests does Iran threaten if they have a nuke? Enlighten me please.

What I presented was probabilistic no? I'm not saying they would, I'm saying they could. In hindsight, I could have worded that a bit better.

It's sufficient that a state sponsor of terrorism has a nuclear capability. Markets are about certainty aren't they?



PS - :lol trying to pretend we go to war over our "economic interests" being threatened.

I doubt very seriously that war is prosecuted for many other reasons tbh. Sovereignty perhaps, but that's not an issue here.


The Republicans like Santorum who want a war with Iraq are saying it strictly because they claim Americans aren't safe if Iraq develops a nuke.

"Safe" doesn't necessarily refer to physical safety. That's the point I made above.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

What I presented was probabilistic no? I'm not saying they would, I'm saying they could.
In other words, you have no basis for what you were saying, you were just taking a stupid point of view for no reason.


It's sufficient that a state sponsor of terrorism has a nuclear capability. Markets are about certainty aren't they?
huh?



I doubt very seriously that war is prosecuted for many other reasons tbh. Sovereignty perhaps, but that's not an issue here.
huh? again




"Safe" doesn't necessarily refer to physical safety. That's the point I made above.
I'm saying it's a retarded point. When Santorum says, "if Iran has a nuke, you in Greensville, are not safe," it's pretty obvious he's referring to physical safety. You're trying to play devil's advocate right now and it's really stupid. If you're convinced Santorum is talking about another kind of safety and isn't fear mongering about physical safety being threatened, I'm all ears about what safety he's talking about, Mr. Scientist.

[ElNono]

I'm saying it's a retarded point. When Santorum says, "if Iran has a nuke, you in Greensville, are not safe," it's pretty obvious he's referring to physical safety. You're trying to play devil's advocate right now and it's really stupid.

Why do you hate America? :madrun

[mavs>spurs]

Dammit for someone who thinks he's so much better than everyone else with this little "I'm a scientist" superiority complex thing he's got going on, Agloco really is being an idiot in this thread. He buys the iranian boogeyman story hook, line, and sinker.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Hey everybody, I'm Agloco, I'm a scientist, and you should care!

[Allan Rowe vs Wade]

Hememdgamboa has scientific credentials

It's going to be funny in 50 years when colombia Cuba even has nukes, they're gonna be like DVDs in the home; ubiquitous

[Agloco]

In other words, you have no basis for what you were saying, you were just taking a stupid point of view for no reason.


You're trying to play devil's advocate right now and it's really stupid. If you're convinced Santorum is talking about another kind of safety and isn't fear mongering about physical safety being threatened, I'm all ears about what safety he's talking about, Mr. Scientist.


Dammit for someone who thinks he's so much better than everyone else with this little "I'm a scientist" superiority complex thing he's got going on, Agloco really is being an idiot in this thread. He buys the iranian boogeyman story hook, line, and sinker.


Hey everybody, I'm Agloco, I'm a scientist, and you should care!


:cry

Now now children. Apparently we're still butthurt about the club thread.
































:lol

[MannyIsGod]

Iran and North Korea's militaries do not preclude anything. Russia and China's are another matter.

Disagree completely. Iran would make an invasion hell, and NK would anihilate Seoul in a matter of hours after war broke out using technology that is a hundred years old.

[AFBlue]

And if the kid doesn't wanna join the military once he turns 18, fuck him then too. If a kid who turns 18 is underprivileged and wants to go to college, his only options are serving a few tours in Iraq to get his education paid for or burying himself in a mountain of student loans. We don't have the money for unimportant bullshit like education when we're busy spending trillions keeping troops deployed in countries like Germany and Japan.

You're an idiot. We don't deploy troops to Germany and Japan, and we certainly don't spend trillions to keep troops in either place.

[Winehole23]

how much do we spend? how much have we spent since WWII?

if DoK is mistaken as you say surely you can quantify the error...

[AFBlue]

how much do we spend? how much have we spent since WWII?

if DoK is mistaken as you say surely you can quantify the error...

Billions.

[Winehole23]

^^^ doesn't know either, in short

[Agloco]

how much do we spend? how much have we spent since WWII?

if DoK is mistaken as you say surely you can quantify the error...

In the interest of fairness, we might ask DoK to justify his estimate as well.....(although I don't think he's far off of the mark).

[spursncowboys]

And if the kid doesn't wanna join the military once he turns 18, fuck him then too. If a kid who turns 18 is underprivileged and wants to go to college, his only options are serving a few tours in Iraq to get his education paid for or burying himself in a mountain of student loans. We don't have the money for unimportant bullshit like education when we're busy spending trillions keeping troops deployed in countries like Germany and Japan.

I guess underprivileged kids can't use fafsa and the Powell grant or guaranteed college loans. Or any scholarships huh?

[Agloco]

I guess underprivileged kids can't use fafsa and the Powell grant or guaranteed college loans. Or any scholarships huh?

I think DoKs argument is valid. It isn't about access. It's about being obliged to take out an exorbitant amount of loans, whatever source they might come from, in order to pursue higher education.

The two options he pointed out are really the only viable way to get it done in a reasonable time frame. The only other one I could think of off hand would be to live with momma and daddy for a few years and save every penny you earned through work and then go. imo, there are lots of variables which work against you ever going back if you use that route though.

Sure there are scholarships, but how many are scholarship material? They're merit based and that opens another can of worms.

[spursncowboys]

There are tons of scholarship that go by family income. the pell grant paid for my Assoc degree. That and having a part time job and being an ra to get free room and food . Also every college loan, you get seven years after college before interest is applied.

[Agloco]

There are tons of scholarship that go by family income. the pell grant paid for my Assoc degree. That and having a part time job and being an ra to get free room and food.

Agreed. However, this is an issue of access. I don't know many people who qualify for one, even if they're dirt poor. I know it's not nearly as many I think there should be. I didn't, and my parents made just under 30k combined at the time I went to college. I have 2 siblings as well.



Also every college loan, you get seven years after college before interest is applied.

True, and it's a good thing. We can forget about the interest for a moment though. Most kids now graduate with over 6 figure debt. That's principal mind you. At that point, loans could be completely subsidized and it still wouldn't matter tbh.

[spursncowboys]

I didn't. I kept mine under 8 K.. If I wasn't getting a b, I would drop.then with a few years from a cheap community college and a good GPA I got a full ride scholarship to St Marys. But out don't really understand what the problem or a possible solution is. I think if someone wants something bad enough, they can work towards it. But the idea that people are joining the army in a time of war for college money is ridiculous. Perhaps it incentives their enlistment. But i have never met one person who was willing to go to war with their principle reasoning being college.
I grew up dirt poor but have never met any body not get aid through fasfa.

[spursncowboys]

Agreed. However, this is an issue of access. I don't know many people who qualify for one, even if they're dirt poor. I know it's not nearly as many I think there should be. I didn't, and my parents made just under 30k combined at the time I went to college. I have 2 siblings as well.




True, and it's a good thing. We can forget about the interest for a moment though. Most kids now graduate with over 6 figure debt. That's principal mind you. At that point, loans could be completely subsidized and it still wouldn't matter tbh.

six figure? Really. Why would anyone ever let themselves get in that much debt.I could see for a job that will pay them six figures in under five years of employment

[MannyIsGod]

Sorry but there are far too many cheaper options to even consider graduating with six figures in debt. Just a stupid decision if you chose that route, IMO.

[AFBlue]

^^^ doesn't know either, in short

It's true I don't know the cost. Perhaps I should've constrained my argument to a disagreement over the implication that troops "deployed" to these locations don't serve a strategic purpose. I would argue more strongly for the strategic purpose in Germany, specifically Landstuhl, which is actively treating our troops engaged in combat in the region.

[Winehole23]

perhaps you shouldn't have called the poster an idiot right off the bat, jmo

[Agloco]

six figure? Really. Why would anyone ever let themselves get in that much debt.I could see for a job that will pay them six figures in under five years of employment.

Probably because no one gets a good financial education, at least until its too late. I'm not defending their decisions, but it is what it is.

Certainly one doesn't go six figures under to graduate with an arts degree.


Sorry but there are far too many cheaper options to even consider graduating with six figures in debt. Just a stupid decision if you chose that route, IMO.

It's the norm for most medical students. I'm not aware of cheaper options for them tbh. Military perhaps? Youd have to consider salary differences then....but that's for another debate.

[AFBlue]

perhaps you shouldn't have called the poster an idiot right off the bat, jmo

Wrong choice of words. He's an ignorant ass.

[Agloco]

I didn't. I kept mine under 8 K.. If I wasn't getting a b, I would drop.then with a few years from a cheap community college and a good GPA I got a full ride scholarship to St Marys. But out don't really understand what the problem or a possible solution is. I think if someone wants something bad enough, they can work towards it. But the idea that people are joining the army in a time of war for college money is ridiculous. Perhaps it incentives their enlistment. But i have never met one person who was willing to go to war with their principle reasoning being college.
I grew up dirt poor but have never met any body not get aid through fasfa.

There isnt one really, unless you want to sit and counsel each kid who is about to go to school about the virtues of sound financial decision making.

For most kids about to leave the home, money is more of an abstract concept tbh. It needs to be made more concrete long before these issues pop up.

[Winehole23]

Wrong choice of words. He's an ignorant ass.fair enough

[spursncowboys]

There isnt one really, unless you want to sit and counsel each kid who is about to go to school about the virtues of sound financial decision making.

For most kids about to leave the home, money is more of an abstract concept tbh. It needs to be made more concrete long before these issues pop up.

True.I just thought you or dok were just agreeing for college degree bailouts, like the 99%ers. Yeah I agree.it sucks. Fwiw, the people who join the army to be a doctor after already having a bachelors rarely go to a dangerous part of a war zone. But yeah the army used to do college loan repayment programs. A lawyer in my basic got everything paid off for eight years of college.he could have picked any job but he chose combat arms. When I asked him what was he thinking and why he didn't atleast go officer, he said he wanted to do something positive with his life.

[DMC]

There's no such thing as a "right" in world speak.

You have the ability or you do not have the ability.

[AFBlue]

There isnt one really, unless you want to sit and counsel each kid who is about to go to school about the virtues of sound financial decision making.

For most kids about to leave the home, money is more of an abstract concept tbh. It needs to be made more concrete long before these issues pop up.

That's why we need to elect Newt president and put those damn 13 year olds to work...especially the lazy black ones. Cheap child labor ftw.

[MannyIsGod]

Ag, ah, if you meant medical students then I can see that. But at the same time they stand to make that money back and then some. Not what I was thinking about.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

lol claiming we don't spend trillions on the military, we spent over a trillion on the Iraq War alone

military spending is over $2,000 per capita which is an insanely high number given how little other countries threaten us

[Agloco]

Ag, ah, if you meant medical students then I can see that. But at the same time they stand to make that money back and then some. Not what I was thinking about.

:tu

Mea culpa. Again, I should have been more clear. Med students certainly, but some others too. We could probably generalize to any professional degree in the medical field. Heck, even medical physics is going to a professional model now, the DMP (Doctor of Medical Physics). Fortunately, the pay in this field is worth the debt burden for incoming people. Some of those fields (PT, OT, PA, etc.) now require a long look at debt burden before venturing forward.

Yes, the issue is really with those who are choosing to go 6 figures under and come out with a degree paying 40-50k. Not good fiscal sense tbh.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Some people also take loans out during college and never work while they're in school. I understand there's that whole "Full College experience" thing, but if you need loans to pay for school you should at least be working part time during school.