Kawhi Leonard + Danny Green > Bruce Bowen?

[Spursfan092120]

Just a thought...


Edit: Potential...not today.

[timvp]

Today?

No way.

[Spursfan092120]

No...not today..obviously not...I'm talking about potential.

[Spurs Brazil]

:nope

[GSH]

Ummmm... no. And I really like the young guys.

[urunobili]

Can we say "Close to = Bruce" :wow

[timtonymanu]

I love Kawhi but Bruce was in a league of his own.

We'll see a few years from now.

[MannyIsGod]

WTF???!@?@??@

Jesus fucking Christ.

[Spurs Brazil]

Since we're talking about Bruce, why is taking so long to retire his jersey??

I hope the Spurs FO announces it this year

[angelbelow]

... why???

[SA210]

This almost made me throw up

[slick'81]

the answer is no

[The ADMIRAL 50]

Not yet....

[timtonymanu]

As good as LeBron is now, I don't think Bruce would have allowed him to hit all those 3 pointers LeBron hit tonight.

[MannyIsGod]

Just had to come into this thread and :lmao a bit more. Maybe next we can start a Blair + Splitter > Robinson thread.

[objective]

Since we're talking about Bruce, why is taking so long to retire his jersey??

I hope the Spurs FO announces it this year

They will not retire his jersey.

Pop already let some 10-day scrub last year wear it.

Bowen = Pop's doghouse for the rest of time.

[benefactor]

90210...shittin' in a bag...leavin' it in the bushes...per his usual, tbh, fwiw.

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

How about now?

[spursince#99]

Now? Yes

[Yuixafun]

If we could have had Bruce Bowen in his prime for this years finals In trade of Kawhi and Danny...

Who doesn't make that trade?

Bruce nullified people.
He nailed Timely Threes time and again.
And eventually he could put the ball on the floor and score.

He was our Tenacity, savy and very much integral to 3 rings.

People got the Spurs effed up.

It was Always a Big 4.

[spurraider21]

:lol the backlash this thread got

can you imagine if prime timmy had this green and kawhi?

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

Bowen ruined VC's career though, tbh..

[apalisoc_9]

Danny has the potential to be the Bruce Bowen of the San Antonio spurs tbh. A year back everyone was talking about how kawhi will be the new Bowen..Kawhi obviously has so much more potential. He's our best perimeter defender, our most versatile defender and an offensive threat. Danny at times is our best option for faster 1/2 guards and can hit the three ball in all places.

Obviously both arnt in the same tier yet defensively in the perimeter defensively, but both exceeded expectations. Fuck kawhi Leonard has perennial all-star potential.

Kawhi > Bowen Potentailly if not already better

Green = Bowen Potential

[Floyd Pacquiao]

If the Spurs had the Green and Leonard of now on the 04 and 06 team, the Spurs would of 5peated tbh.

[dallasmaverickslose]

Just a thought...


Edit: Potential...not today.

There sure as hell is potential. But like what eveyone else has said, I have to agree. Bowen is still leaps and bounds better (in his prime with the Spurs) as a defender.

As far as Green goes, my gut tells me he's already reached the plateau as far as his defensive skills are concerned. That's not a bad thing. He's hella good. Not Bowen good, but definitely one of the top defenders on this squad!

And for Kawhi, wow! So much skill already, and I don't think he's even sniffed his potential yet! He very well could be a greater overall defender that Bruce, but we will just have to see.

[Chinook]

Green's shooting is exactly the type of shooting Prime Duncan needed around him. The fact that Danny always moves to keep a passing lane open would have helped Duncan even more than it helped Parker. Leonard's cutting probably would have worked well with Duncan, but most of his offense would have been dampened, as the Spurs were a slower team back then. His defense and rebounding would have been huge assets though.

I'm sure in a decade or so we'll wonder how Prime Leonard, Prime Robinson and the Prime Big Three would have been as as lineup together. The fact that Leonard could get the three spot on the All-Spurs team when it's currently occupied by a Hall-of-Famer is definitely a testament to his potential, though.

[Sean Cagney]

If the Spurs had the Green and Leonard of now on the 04 and 06 team, the Spurs would of 5peated tbh.

That is kind of scary to think of, but lets throw 99 D ROB In there too while we are at it! Since we are bridging teams together now of different times! We would have 6 peated!

This is funny though, how would have 06 Green cut into Finley and Manu, Finley was huge in that 06 Dallas series with threes and dunks! Are you discounting what he did in that series? He was clutch too, so was BOWEN! ON D! He rotated to Dirk etc., so you are taking them away now? They all played key roles that year and our comeback in the 7 game series. Green was not clutch in the last two games this year, what makes you think he goes FINLEY on them in the last few games? Seriously.

04 we had HEDO ehhhhhhhh of course I take Leonard over that there, but Green over Manu that year? We had Manu then that year so if you plug in Green that means Manu gets less mins there! Stupid to compare different teams and say so and so on them when you had BOWEN who was the best at covering KOBE at the time when nobody could and helped us in a few of our runs on D! Apples and oranges, so just stop that there right in your tracks.

[T Park]

Defensively Leonard nor Green are at Bowen level.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

It's no coincidence that Bruce Bowen's five most formidable years in the NBA were marked by 3 Spurs titles. Bruce owned the court from a defensive standpoint and put fear in the opponents he was guarding. San Antonio had the hard edge you need to win playoff games with him on the roster. He was every bit as important as the Big 3 during those title runs. When you average 6 points a game on offense, but other teams still have to game plan against you, you know your defense is something special. Bruce probably could have scored a lot more points on another team, but he knew his role and carved out a great career as a defensive specialist.

I love Leonard's ceiling. He's become one of my favorite Spurs. I think he can be everything Bruce was and more. Unfortunately he's got superstar teammates who are 8 years older than the versions that Bruce got to be on the court with, so we may never really be able to compare the two. Bruce was never asked to be much of an offensive player, and he didn't need to be with Manu, Duncan and Parker all in their primes. He could concentrate completely on D, and as long as that corner three was falling through the hoop 40% of the time all was golden. Leonard doesn't have that luxury. He's going to have to carry much more of the overall burden than Bowen ever had to during his Spur career.

Green is more of a situational player at this point I think. He's not particularly great on defense, although he surprised me at times in the playoffs. He's not a great finisher. He's not a rebounder. But, like Leonard, he has a lot of room to improve certain parts of his game. We'll see.

In a hypothetical world, if I owned a team and had 2008 Bowen I'd trade him for the current Leonard+Green in a second. 2005 Bowen I'd have to think about, but I'd very likely do that trade as well.

[HarlemHeat37]

Leonard is obviously a much better overall player than Bruce, tbh..defensively, Bowen was much better, but Leonard is levels above as an offensive player and rebounder..

Defensively, Bowen's mental edge was vastly superior to Leonard/Green, tbh..opponents feared Bowen, the thought of him breaking your ankle was always prominent, tbh..Kawhi is a much better disruptor in the passing lanes with his freakish arms, but as an individual defender, neither Kawhi nor Green are comparable at this point, tbh..

Leonard is already a better overall player, though, and Green is a solid player, so the answer to this thread is a no-brainer..the Leonard/Green combination is arguably the best wing defensive combo in the league today, tbh..

[Spursfan092120]

I started this thread a year and a half ago, and talking about overall talent, I feel I am on the road to being, if not already, correct. Kawhi Leonard is the future of this team..could we have ever said that about Bruce? Even if we didn't have Tim, Tony, or Manu? I'm talking talent...sheer talent. Yes, Danny and Kawhi are not on Bruce's level defensively...but Bruce couldn't touch Kawhi OR Danny offensively. While I think currently the duo is at least even with Bruce, I think in the near future, it will be obvious that as a duo, they are better than Bruce. Love him all you want, and I do, but his lack of offense puts him below the two.

[Spursfan092120]

90210...shittin' in a bag...leavin' it in the bushes...per his usual, tbh, fwiw.
sup man?

[Spursfan092120]

Defensively Leonard nor Green are at Bowen level.
Agreed 100%...but I'm talking about combining the two. But if you want to break it down to singles, could Bowen touch Kawhi offensively?

[Spursfan092120]

It's no coincidence that Bruce Bowen's five most formidable years in the NBA were marked by 3 Spurs titles. Bruce owned the court from a defensive standpoint and put fear in the opponents he was guarding. San Antonio had the hard edge you need to win playoff games with him on the roster. He was every bit as important as the Big 3 during those title runs. When you average 6 points a game on offense, but other teams still have to game plan against you, you know your defense is something special. Bruce probably could have scored a lot more points on another team, but he knew his role and carved out a great career as a defensive specialist.

I love Leonard's ceiling. He's become one of my favorite Spurs. I think he can be everything Bruce was and more. Unfortunately he's got superstar teammates who are 8 years older than the versions that Bruce got to be on the court with, so we may never really be able to compare the two. Bruce was never asked to be much of an offensive player, and he didn't need to be with Manu, Duncan and Parker all in their primes. He could concentrate completely on D, and as long as that corner three was falling through the hoop 40% of the time all was golden. Leonard doesn't have that luxury. He's going to have to carry much more of the overall burden than Bowen ever had to during his Spur career.

Green is more of a situational player at this point I think. He's not particularly great on defense, although he surprised me at times in the playoffs. He's not a great finisher. He's not a rebounder. But, like Leonard, he has a lot of room to improve certain parts of his game. We'll see.

In a hypothetical world, if I owned a team and had 2008 Bowen I'd trade him for the current Leonard+Green in a second. 2005 Bowen I'd have to think about, but I'd very likely do that trade as well.
99% of the time, I agree with what you say. But you'd really trade a young Kawhi Leonard with a HUGE ceiling and a young confident Danny Green off a huge NBA Finals for a Bruce Bowen with only one year left in the tank? Come on, man. No offense, but that's insane.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

99% of the time, I agree with what you say. But you'd really trade a young Kawhi Leonard with a HUGE ceiling and a young confident Danny Green off a huge NBA Finals for a Bruce Bowen with only one year left in the tank? Come on, man. No offense, but that's insane.

You read it backwards, my friend.

[Spursfan092120]

You read it backwards, my friend.
You are correct sir...I apologize...and it seems to be closer to 100% now...lol.

[apalisoc_9]

Danny Green > Bowen

Kawhi Leonard>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Bowen

[Kool Bob Love]

Danny Green > Bowen

Kawhi Leonard>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Bowen

Bowen: 3
Green: 1
Kawhi: 1

lettuce proceed.

yooo it's Valentine's Day so Canadian is bumpin up all the kawhi threads. That's love b. <3

[barbacoataco]

Bowen was a great player. I'm not sure people remember how good of a defender he was. He could guard fast perimeter types like Kobe and even bigger post up players like Zach Randolph. He also shot over 40% 3pt in all of the Spurs playoff runs. Yes he was a role player, but had was as good as role players get.

[barbacoataco]

Also, I disagree that a one dimensional player can't be better than a more well rounded player. If that one dimension has such an effect on the game, that player is great. There are plenty of one dimensional scorers who played no defense in the HOF. Defense wins games. Having a "defensive stopper" is one of the hallmarks of championship teams. You need a defender to put on hrs other team's best scorer when they get hot, and almost all championship teams have one.

[wildbill2u]

Bowen shot a better % on 3s than on 2s. He hated to attack the paint and seldom did it. In fact he normally shot about half fewer 2s than 3s in a season. And since he only took less than 3 shots from 3pt land on average, his point production was usually much below the average for a first string player.

He made up for it with his defense. In fact, the whole Spurs concept at the time was keyed toward winning with defense. Our scores per game average were much lower than today. It's hard to say whether Pop changed the concept because he lost Bowen or because the league changed to more offense and the much higher use of the 3pt. shot.

Green is not anywhere near the defensive stopper that Bowen was, but when he is 'on' he is a much better and more willing shooter of 3s. On 2s and layups he reminds of Bowen--just not very good at it.

Kwahi is a better and more diversified shooter than Bowen or Green. He can and will drive into the paint and post up--something that Bowen and Green simply had no talent for. He's a better defender than Green whether he is better at this point than Bowen is still unproven. I think he may not have the footspeed of Bowen and so cannot be matched against many guards in the league--but he is very very good against the players he is matched up with.

Overall, you'd have to give Kwahi the nod over Green or Bowen as better.

[gospursgojas]

Bowen could guard the 1-4 positions. Kawhi is limited to 2 and 3s.

[apalisoc_9]

Bowen could guard the 1-4 positions. Kawhi is limited to 2 and 3s.

that's a flat out lie

[FkLA]

Yep Kawhi has guarded his share of 1s. Could probably guard many 4s too. Fortunately Danny and Tiago make Kawhi's ability to do that a luxury rather than a necessity.

[TheGreatYacht]

Disrespectful to Bruce and Green.

[Floyd Pacquiao]

Lol here we go again, people saying lies like Bruce could guard power forwards and kobe. 

[Chinook]

Lol here we go again, people saying lies like Bruce could guard power forwards and kobe. 

Hell, or even all PGs. Bruce handled Nash about as well as Hill did.

[Floyd Pacquiao]

Hell, or even all PGs. Bruce handled Nash about as well as Hill did.
:lolYep, old mainstream spurfan tends to overrate the past.

[hater]

Lol here we go again, people saying lies like Bruce could guard power forwards and kobe. 

Nowitzki averaged 31.3 points against the Grizzlies and worried that the long layoff might take him out of his rhythm.

He scored 13 points in the first half and felt pretty good about it. Then Bowen began playing what Dallas coach Avery Johnson called "bear-hug defense," and the big German couldn't break free.

He was 3-for-11 in the second half, getting to the line only once (missing one of two) and scoring only seven points.


smh young spursfans. disrespecting our best defender ever :rolleyes

[Floyd Pacquiao]

Dirk 2006 wcsf stats: 27 pts ppg on 52% shooting. Lock down! :lol

[hater]

and without Bowen we get swept that year :lol

[Chinook]

and without Bowen we get swept that year :lol

And they may well win that series if they had had 2014 playoffs Splitter instead of Bowen. Hell, they may have won with 2007 Jack. That's what I find so comical is that you literally had another SF do a better job on Dirk the following year.

[K...]

A couple things. Bowen had a prime TD behind him. That allowed him to be aggressive. Green and KL have a slower TD that can't defend at an elite level. (He's still good though).

Green guards the full court well. I don't remember Bowen making as many plays on fast breaks. I don't remember Bruce being that fast on the break.

Also, bringing offense into this thread is a bad idea. Bruce had a roll in a different offense. He was never asked to do more.

Green started his career as a first option several years before Bowen. Same with KL. Everyone expects KL to improve. Green, maybe not.But it it's likely both will last longer as a prime defender than Bowen did.

Bowen and green are less injury prone than KL.


Finally, green will likely never be as strong as Bowen. KL was always stronger than both. In basketball, size and length matter, so when you say KL is the best defender on the team it's not a controversial take. When you debate overall skill, intelligence, and instinct , I'd say green , Bowen, kl.

[Johnny RIngo]

Also, I disagree that a one dimensional player can't be better than a more well rounded player. If that one dimension has such an effect on the game, that player is great. There are plenty of one dimensional scorers who played no defense in the HOF. Defense wins games. Having a "defensive stopper" is one of the hallmarks of championship teams. You need a defender to put on hrs other team's best scorer when they get hot, and almost all championship teams have one.

I love Bowen but he was just another 3-and-D guy - pretty much one-dimensional on offense. He had the corner threes and nothing else. IMO, Green fills that role better than Bowen ever did. When Danny's on fire, the Spurs offense looks unbeatable. I've never seen that from Bruce. Bowen probably has the edge on defense though.

And current Kawhi is better than Bowen has ever been. He can score/rebound/defend...calling him well rounded is an understatement. Replace 2006 Bowen with this year's Leonard and Spurs more than likely beat the Mavs in six games and go on to win the title.

[Malik Hairston]

^^ Yep..and I loved Bowen as much as anybody, but as the poster above said, he had prime Duncan, and even had prime Alonzo Mourning in Miami, too..

Green and Leonard have displayed elite-level defense in key playoff games vs. the best players in the NBA, despite having a 37-year old Duncan and a non-rim protecting Splitter as their anchors..not to mention, as Ringo pointed out, Green is levels better as a shooter, and Leonard is just a much better all-around player..

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

^^ Yep..and I loved Bowen as much as anybody, but as the poster above said, he had prime Duncan, and even had prime Alonzo Mourning in Miami, too..

Green and Leonard have displayed elite-level defense in key playoff games vs. the best players in the NBA, despite having a 37-year old Duncan and a non-rim protecting Splitter as their anchors..not to mention, as Ringo pointed out, Green is levels better as a shooter, and Leonard is just a much better all-around player..

Duncan's defense in 13 was actually pretty close to prime levels, and you forget to mention that the old Spurs and Heat were not nearly as deep as the Spurs have been.

I'm not suggesting he is the better player than Leonard, but I think their defense is close with a slight edge to Bowen. I don't think Danny is necessarily a "better player" but I think he's more impactful offensively because of his abilities.

[Chinook]

We can put it this way. Green and Leonard have never had defensive playoff series bad enough to be close to Bowen's defensive 'gems'. It's seriously like Usain Bolt vs Boy Hayes here.

[KL2]

Bowen was probably the best PG defender the Spurs have ever had, that is where he really excelled, much like Green. One thing he lacked was size and strength, that hurt him the most against bigger players. Bowen was a great great defensive player, but wasn't perfect.

Leonard and Green are no scrubs, one of the best defensive combos I've ever seen on the perimeter, so versatile.

[apalisoc_9]

Nostalgia :lmao

I'm a huge Bowen fan but if I wanted a 3 and D guy I would take Green 10/10...

It's retarded to compare Kawhi and Bowen since kawhi is league above Bowen as a player..not even xlose.

[KL2]

Bowen could guard the 1-4 positions. Kawhi is limited to 2 and 3s.


Leonard has been matched up with many 4's this year, many teams lack the personnel to guard him so they just put the biggest, strongest, most agile guy on him to guard him. Still able to pull down 8 RPG against them, he's done just fine. He can't lock down 4's but he can make life hell for them.

Leonard used to struggle somewhat with quicker PGs and SGs, but it is obvious he is not this year, he's been on lock down mode against almost every guy he's guarding. This is one of the first off season's he has had to workout, I am noticing a huge difference in his explosiveness.

Leonard is shifting his feet far faster, he' more explosive allowing to go for steals, he can now push up above the 3pt line and apply pressure without getting burned laterally because he's so much faster laterally, that's why you're seeing so many steals this year. Just gonna keep getting better. He's also much bigger and stronger so he can guard bigger guys without much problem.

[G-Dawgg]

I love Bruce Bowen, but Kawhi and Green bring so many other skills to the table..

[barbacoataco]

It's not about who is better. Bowen had a lot of success. Period. Leonard and Green are different players. Leonard at times is easily the best of the 3. Hopefully he continues on and has a great career.

I was there with season tickets back in the day, and I still think Bowen was the top defender of his type the Spurs ever had. He just was very intense and able to disrupt, resorting to whatever it took. I'm talking about 2002-2005 prime Bowen. Even in 2007 he matched ip against Lebron and had a great series.

Can't we just appreciate all the great Spurs players and only trash those who deserve it like Dick Jefferson.

[daslicer]

One thing I give Bowen the edge on is that he had the ability to get underneath guy's skin. Bowen had that nastiness which I think Green or Kawhi will never possess but then again they don't need it to be successful.

[apalisoc_9]

It's not about who is better. Bowen had a lot of success. Period. Leonard and Green are different players. Leonard at times is easily the best of the 3. Hopefully he continues on and has a great career.

I was there with season tickets back in the day, and I still think Bowen was the top defender of his type the Spurs ever had. He just was very intense and able to disrupt, resorting to whatever it took. I'm talking about 2002-2005 prime Bowen. Even in 2007 he matched ip against Lebron and had a great series.

Can't we just appreciate all the great Spurs players and only trash those who deserve it like Dick Jefferson.


One thing I give Bowen the edge on is that he had the ability to get underneath guy's skin. Bowen had that nastiness which I think Green or Kawhi will never possess but then again they don't need it to be successful.

:lmao

[barbacoataco]

In 2003 Bowen defended Kobe. In 2005 it was Steve Nash, and in 2007 he took on Lebron. All three of those rings were partly due to Bowen being the guy who matched up against the other teams best scorer.

[daslicer]

:lmao

:rolleyes What's funny about that statement do you actually believe that Green and Kawhi or more nasty than Bowen or have his ability to get underneath people's skins?

[rasuo214]

In 2003 Bowen defended Kobe. In 2005 it was Steve Nash, and in 2007 he took on Lebron. All three of those rings were partly due to Bowen being the guy who matched up against the other teams best scorer.

In 2014 Kawhi defended Lebron and won FMVP. Both were/are great players.

IMO Leonard's help defense is what makes him so great, his length is a big asset in being able to help so much off his guy but he's also great at closing out on a shot without losing control. He's very good fundamentally. From a strictly defensive standpoint it really depends on what team is around them and the opponents they're playing against.

If you look at it from a statistical POV:

Bowen:
Seasons with sub 100 Drtg = 1 (97 in 03-04)
Defensive WS/48, best 3 seasons: .084 (03-04), .073 (04-05), .078 (05-06)

Kawhi:
Seasons with sub 100 Drtg = 2* (99 in 12-13, 98 in 13-14. *He is at 97 so far this season)
Defensive WS/48, first 3 seasons: .075 (11-12), .088 (12-13), .097 (13-14) (so far this season .098)


Statistically Bowen > Green from a defensive standpoint. Green has 0 sub 100 Drtg seasons and last season was his first great DWS/48 season (.081), this season he has been better.


Now Timmy >>>>>>>>>>>>> all 3.

Seasons with sub 100 Drtg = 15, 1 sub 90 season (89 in 03-04)
Defensive WS/48, I'd have to look at his worst seasons for the others to be comparable (.095, .089, .089, .085 years 08-12 every other season is higher than .100), Duncan's best 3: .137 (03-04), .124 (04-05), .120 (06-07)

[KL2]

In 2003 Bowen defended Kobe. In 2005 it was Steve Nash, and in 2007 he took on Lebron. All three of those rings were partly due to Bowen being the guy who matched up against the other teams best scorer.


That '07 Cavs team was very easy to game plan against though, Lebron was 30-40lbs lighter than he would be back in '07 too, had prime Duncan backing Bowen up (Somewhat still in his prime). Pop taught Brown everything he knew, ran circles around him easily. Spacing was horrible, very few 3pt shooters, or shooters in general, they were heavily inexperienced too. Terrible team in general.

Compare that to the Heat with Lebron around 270lbs in his prime, much better supporting cast and even coach (at least better than Brown). I don't think Bowen would fare nearly as well.

[barbacoataco]

That 2007 Cavs team beat a pretty good Detroit team because no one could stop Lebron. Then in game 1 Bowen put the clamp down.

[unleashbaynes]

Love Bowen. I'm excited that Danny and Kawhi are better.

[Chinook]

In 2014 Kawhi defended Lebron and won FMVP. Both were/are great players.

IMO Leonard's help defense is what makes him so great, his length is a big asset in being able to help so much off his guy but he's also great at closing out on a shot without losing control. He's very good fundamentally. From a strictly defensive standpoint it really depends on what team is around them and the opponents they're playing against.

If you look at it from a statistical POV:

Bowen:
Seasons with sub 100 Drtg = 1 (97 in 03-04)
Defensive WS/48, best 3 seasons: .084 (03-04), .073 (04-05), .078 (05-06)

Kawhi:
Seasons with sub 100 Drtg = 2* (99 in 12-13, 98 in 13-14. *He is at 97 so far this season)
Defensive WS/48, first 3 seasons: .075 (11-12), .088 (12-13), .097 (13-14) (so far this season .098)


Statistically Bowen > Green from a defensive standpoint. Green has 0 sub 100 Drtg seasons and last season was his first great DWS/48 season (.081), this season he has been better.


Now Timmy >>>>>>>>>>>>> all 3.

Seasons with sub 100 Drtg = 15, 1 sub 90 season (89 in 03-04)
Defensive WS/48, I'd have to look at his worst seasons for the others to be comparable (.095, .089, .089, .085 years 08-12 every other season is higher than .100), Duncan's best 3: .137 (03-04), .124 (04-05), .120 (06-07)

Ugh. DRtg is a horrible, horrible stat to compare perimeter defenders. It favors rebounding, blocks and steals over solid D. Also, it's heavily influenced by team DRtg. Kawhi has a great DRtg because he's a great rebounder. Bowen's rating is because the Spurs were an unreal team defense that year (because offenses were worse). That doesn't mean that he wasn't a better defender (he wasn't, but that stat doesn't mean that). He just didn't play enough like a big man.

Win-shares are based on ORtg and DRtg. They suffer the same problems. If you want to make a real statistical comparison, you'll need to find better stats.

[hater]

That 2007 Cavs team beat a pretty good Detroit team because no one could stop Lebron. Then in game 1 Bowen put the clamp down.

shhh don't bring logic into this young spursfan's thread. they probably were on their momma's tit when that happened.

:lol at Green being better than Bowen :lol

[Floyd Pacquiao]

If you watched the 07 finals you'd know that it was the spurs team defense not Bowen who stopped lebron. The spurs would pack the paint and throw constant double teams at lebron.


http://youtu.be/qkYl1eKTfZs

Hell most of the time you see Bruce getting beat here till a prime Duncan or teammate comes over and helps:lol

[barbacoataco]

I did watch the finals that year and Bowen played great defense that series. Anyway 2007 was past Bowen's prime.

[hater]

wake me up when our soft young wings start laying niggas on the parque like this bad mofo :lol

aFvk4qHkT10

it's called toughness. something we lack

[barbacoataco]

Spurs history lesson. Spurs were a soft team in 90's that never won in playoffs despite having talent. Duncan arrived in 1998, and also Mario Elie brought a lot of toughness= championship in 1999. Spurs go through drought until Bowen, Parker, and GMan arrive. Spurs win rings in 03,05,07 and also were good enough to win in 04 and 06 but just didn't make quite enough shots in playoffs.

Then Bowen gets old. Spurs still have big 3 and other pieces. They bring in several Bowen replacements but basically go nowhere from 2008-2012. Now they have Leonard and Green and are champions again. Once you put it in perspective. Bowen's importance is clear.

[Chinook]

Spurs history lesson. Spurs were a soft team in 90's that never won in playoffs despite having talent. Duncan arrived in 1998, and also Mario Elie brought a lot of toughness= championship in 1999. Spurs go through drought until Bowen, Parker, and GMan arrive. Spurs win rings in 03,05,07 and also were good enough to win in 04 and 06 but just didn't make quite enough shots in playoffs.

Then Bowen gets old. Spurs still have big 3 and other pieces. They bring in several Bowen replacements but basically go nowhere from 2008-2012. Now they have Leonard and Green and are champions again. Once you put it in perspective. Bowen's importance is clear.

His absolute importance, maybe. But the Spurs have been "good enough to win" for each of the three years Green and Leonard have been starters. Your example does little to show Bowen's importance relative to Green and Leonard. You can also argue that the Spurs have had tougher perimeter assignments nowadays than they did back then. And it's inarguable that the offenses today are superior.

[Chinook]

If you watched the 07 finals you'd know that it was the spurs team defense not Bowen who stopped lebron. The spurs would pack the paint and throw constant double teams at lebron.


http://youtu.be/qkYl1eKTfZs

Hell most of the time you see Bruce getting beat here till a prime Duncan or teammate comes over and helps:lol

Yeah, people who think that Duncan hasn't fallen off defensively have no perspective. Tim back then was pretty much Current Tim and Splitter combined on defense.

There's not a more overrated Spur in history than Bowen. Doesn't mean he wasn't good, but if one were building the best All-Spurs team one could, Bowen would be pretty far down on the bench.

[barbacoataco]

Yeah, people who think that Duncan hasn't fallen off defensively have no perspective. Tim back then was pretty much Current Tim and Splitter combined on defense.

There's not a more overrated Spur in history than Bowen. Doesn't mean he wasn't good, but if one were building the best All-Spurs team one could, Bowen would be pretty far down on the bench.
Disagree big time but that's your opinion.

[barbacoataco]

To me Avery Johnson is overrated. The spurs were actively trying to get rid of him or replace him for most of his career.

[Chinook]

To me Avery Johnson is overrated. The spurs were actively trying to get rid of him or replace him for most of his career.

That's true, but I don't know if Johnson is remembered all that fondly, anyway. I don't think anyone has him on their All-Spurs roster.

[apalisoc_9]

Man people forget just how good tim was..

He was by far the best defender in the team..

Heck a lot of Bowen's "toughness" had to do with the fact that TD was just behind him a few meters away. It just allowed him to man up and prevent the shot while not worrying too much about the drive. Splitter is an elite defender but kawhi and Green don't get that luxury because of splitter's inconsistent minutes.

[ChumpDumper]

lol agandas

[K...]

I still think Bowen's prime years were too short to lay claim to the best defender title. Bowen was a nobody until the spurs gave him the chance to shoot open 3s. Spurs suddenly winning with Bruce has more to do with Manu and Parker than Bruce.

I think Bruce's style of defense wouldn't even be allowed today. He'd foul out. I think the refs gave him credit as a veteran that Green didn't have the chance to use. So when you call Bowen tougher remember that.

[hater]

Man people forget just how good tim was..

He was by far the best defender in the team..

he still is



Heck a lot of Bowen's "toughness" had to do with the fact that TD was just behind him a few meters away. It just allowed him to man up and prevent the shot while not worrying too much about the drive. Splitter is an elite defender but kawhi and Green don't get that luxury because of splitter's inconsistent minutes.

fallacy. Bowen was still tough when Duncan was out resting games.

[hater]

Bowen 5 time ALL NBA DEFENSE

wake me up when our soft wings can hold his jockstrap defensively :rolleyes

[Floyd Pacquiao]

Yeah, people who think that Duncan hasn't fallen off defensively have no perspective. Tim back then was pretty much Current Tim and Splitter combined on defense.

There's not a more overrated Spur in history than Bowen. Doesn't mean he wasn't good, but if one were building the best All-Spurs team one could, Bowen would be pretty far down on the bench.
Agreed

[wildchild]

Rebounding, blocks and steals over solid D.

A player who steals the ball, deflects passes, contests shots, blocks shots, takes rebounds, is playing bad D?

I don't care about stats or the thread's comparison, but steals, along with defensive rebounds and blocks are part of defense, too.

[Chinook]

A player who steals the ball, deflects passes, contests shots, blocks shots, takes rebounds, is playing bad D? One on one defense isn't the only solid D...

I don't care about stats or the thread's comparison, but steals, along with defensive rebounds and blocks are part of defense, too.

No. They aren't solid D anymore than threes are solid offense. It depends on the situation. Being a solid perimeter defender isn't simply measured by the number of splash plays you make. In that regard, the stat underrates Bowen (and Green to a lesser extent). It systematically overrates bigs, since they will almost by nature get more rebounds and blocks. That's why using it to explain how Duncan is a far superior defender is ludicrous, since Carlos Boozer sports three sub-100 DRtg seasons.

[Hoops Czar]

Yeah, people who think that Duncan hasn't fallen off defensively have no perspective. Tim back then was pretty much Current Tim and Splitter combined on defense.

There's not a more overrated Spur in history than Bowen. Doesn't mean he wasn't good, but if one were building the best All-Spurs team one could, Bowen would be pretty far down on the bench.

Lay off the crack pipe. It's killing each and every last one of your brain cells. I could name a couple of overrated players myself but, I wouldn't want to hurt your feelings. That isn't to say they aren't good but, if I were building an all Spurs team, one of them wouldn't even receive an honorable mention.

[wildchild]

No. They aren't solid D anymore than threes are solid offense. It depends on the situation. Being a solid perimeter defender isn't simply measured by the number of splash plays you make. In that regard, the stat underrates Bowen (and Green to a lesser extent). It systematically overrates bigs, since they will almost by nature get more rebounds and blocks. That's why using it to explain how Duncan is a far superior defender is ludicrous, since Carlos Boozer sports three sub-100 DRtg seasons.

How I didn't see it coming...:D

Well, I wouldn't call overrated the perimeter defenders who can do those things.

[rasuo214]

Ugh. DRtg is a horrible, horrible stat to compare perimeter defenders. It favors rebounding, blocks and steals over solid D. Also, it's heavily influenced by team DRtg. Kawhi has a great DRtg because he's a great rebounder. Bowen's rating is because the Spurs were an unreal team defense that year (because offenses were worse). That doesn't mean that he wasn't a better defender (he wasn't, but that stat doesn't mean that). He just didn't play enough like a big man.

Win-shares are based on ORtg and DRtg. They suffer the same problems. If you want to make a real statistical comparison, you'll need to find better stats.

Are there any that you prefer?

[Mel_13]

How I didn't see it coming...:D

Well, I wouldn't call overrated the perimeter defenders who can do those things.

I think you're missing the point, which is that Defensive Rating is not a reliable stat to use to compare the relative defensive skills of different players. Bowen consistently ranked near the bottom of the team in defensive rating during the years when he was always on the All-NBA defensive team.

[SpursFan86]

Individual DRTG and DWS are both very poor measures of defensive ability.

Defensive impact is really hard to quantify, but if I had to choose, I'd probably go with DRPM + Synergy stats + eye test.

[wildchild]

I think you're missing the point, which is that Defensive Rating is not a reliable stat to use to compare the relative defensive skills of different players.

I said before "I don't care about stats or the thread's comparision". I replied to a post where it would seem steals, blocks, rebounds aren't part of the defense.

[Mel_13]

I said before "I don't care about stats or the thread's comparision". I replied to a post where it would seem steals, blocks, rebounds aren't part of the defense.

That's not what that post said. It said that Drtg was a poor way to compare players because it relied on counting certain boxscore stats.

[barbacoataco]

Basketball isn't like baseball. Statistics will never show the whole picture. A lot of what is happening on the court doesn't show up in the box score. Winning is the proof of greatness.

[barbacoataco]

Bowen had a great way of getting through screens and that really limited teams like thd Suns offense because Nash couldn't get clear.

[wildchild]

That's not what that post said. It said that Drtg was a poor way to compare players because it relied on counting certain boxscore stats.

No, it said this...
It favors rebounding, blocks and steals over solid D.

But rebounds, blocks and steals are part of solid defense. Not all, or main, but part.

[Chinook]

No, it said this...

But rebounds, blocks and steals are part of solid defense. Not all, or main, but part.

:rolleyes You've seriously been out of your breadth when discussing statistics for a while now, and it's getting really old having the same conversations.

If anything, my post criticizing DRtg is line with your usually reasoning. DRtg doesn't show how well you keep a player from scoring, which is the point of perimeter defense. It's completely agnostic to how many baskets you give up, so long as you get enough rebounds, blocks or steals. It favors those plays OVER solid D. Doesn't mean that good defenders don't do both. But perimeter players tend to struggle in those categories in comparison to bigs.

Bowen was never a guy who had the stats of Leonard or Green, but that doesn't mean he wasn't a superior defender (again, there are other reasons why he wasn't). However, a much worse defender in Carlos Boozer can get elite DRtg scores simply because he boarded well. So yes, it favors those stats over solid D, since solid D often doesn't involve those stats (the primary defender is usually out of position to get rebounds and blocks).

[Mel_13]

No, it said this...

But rebounds, blocks and steals are part of solid defense. Not all, or main, but part.

:lol

Conveniently leaves out the first sentence in that post. The one with the main point.

[KL2]

If you watched the 07 finals you'd know that it was the spurs team defense not Bowen who stopped lebron. The spurs would pack the paint and throw constant double teams at lebron.


http://youtu.be/qkYl1eKTfZs

Hell most of the time you see Bruce getting beat here till a prime Duncan or teammate comes over and helps:lol

Duncan was also responsible for about 90% of Parker's assists and scoring plays that series, the guy was a fucking beast. True MVP.

[Chinook]

Lay off the crack pipe. It's killing each and every last one of your brain cells. I could name a couple of overrated players myself but, I wouldn't want to hurt your feelings. That isn't to say they aren't good but, if I were building an all Spurs team, one of them wouldn't even receive an honorable mention.

You gonna start naming them? Bowen is probably in most fans top seven, and he's not even top 15.

[KL2]

People think Bowen could guard a prime Lebron :lol

Look at that video, Lebron was doing whatever he wanted, creating separation with absolute ease, he could get to the rim and get an easy layup whenever he wanted, Duncan was there though.

Makes me wonder what Lebron at 270lbs would look like against Bowen. Leonard had the size/strength to guard him and remain stabilized, keep Lebron from doing what he wanted.

[Chinook]

Are there any that you prefer?

Depends on exactly what you want. If you want to measure general defensive impact, then DRtg isn't horrible (just a terrible measure of perimeter defense). If you're talking about man defense, then PPP allowed is easily the best in my opinion (since large sample sizes eliminate almost all of the noise). On/off numbers are good too, but I don't really like adjusted stats unless I read the forumlae first. They're nice in general when discussing players, and some of them end up being pretty fair to folks like Bowen.

[wildchild]

:lol

Conveniently leaves out the first sentence in that post. The one with the main point.

Man, we all know about what Chinook thinks about solid D...only PPP
Just quote him a bit on that, talk about other things like steals, rebounds, things like one on one/overall defense, then all know the answer.

However he's right about he's not the only one who does that.

It's getting really old having the same conversations.
Agreed.

[Mel_13]

Man, we all know about what Chinook thinks

:rolleyes

[Malik Hairston]

I love how Carlos Boozer single-handedly killed defensive rating, tbh:lol..

[apalisoc_9]

Bowen himself have said in numerous occasions that Kawhi is better than him but we have all these Old dudes talking nonsense here..:lmao

[ChumpDumper]

Bowen himself have said in numerous occasions that Kawhi is better than him but we have all these Old dudes talking nonsense here..:lmaoLinks to the numerous occasions?

[KL2]

Bowen himself have said in numerous occasions that Kawhi is better than him but we have all these Old dudes talking nonsense here..:lmao

Spurs don't win a title with Bowen guarding Lebron last year.

[apalisoc_9]

I thought leonard was good against lebron last year but Lebron dominated last year's finals..

There is just no way you could stop Lebron.

It was really Leonard offense that changed and allowed the spurs to win big against the heat.

[KL2]

I thought leonard was good against lebron last year but Lebron dominated last year's finals..

There is just no way you could stop Lebron.

It was really Leonard offense that changed and allowed the spurs to win big against the heat.

I felt like Lebron dominated but didn't "dominate" if that makes sense. I think Leonard just didn't have the strength or experience to guard him that well in '13, '14 he looked much stronger and was better overall.

If you see that '07 video, damn, Lebron had no trouble doing what he wanted against Bowen, 0 resistance, kept on sucking in the defense. Good thing they didn't have any 3pt shooters and were terrible in general, that would've made the Spurs pay dearly. Allowed the Spurs to pack the paint and focus the entire defense. Lebron scored on Leonard but couldn't get that kind of position, couldn't break down the defense and get easy shots like he always does, all sorts of ball denial too.

I felt Leonard was a bit overrated on defense these past 2 years, but he's on a whole other level this year and is much more physically developed, one of the best perimeter defenders I've ever seen.

[Malik Hairston]

Bowen himself have said in numerous occasions that Kawhi is better than him but we have all these Old dudes talking nonsense here..:lmao

Look at post #110:lmao..

[ChumpDumper]

Look at post #110:lmao..I just asked for a couple of links. I hadn't seen him say it.

It's not like I welshed on a leave of absence or anything like that.

[ajh18]

Like many of you, I watched the entire Bowen era and have seen the entire Kawhi/Danny era as well.

My memory of Bowen is that he was a very different kind of defender than either of our current wings. I remember him struggling against "strong" wings, but being very good at guarding traditional 1-3 players, and the occasional jump-shooting 4. He was better at guarding PGs than Kawhi, and better at guarding 4s than Green. He was also very much a specialist, relying on foot/hand speed, psychological games, and the corner 3.

Much of Bowen's success came from the fact that he had a very narrow role on the team, and got exceptionally good within that niche. Hound ball handlers and shooters. Funnel to the bigs. Hit a long jumper from 2-3 spots on the floor. He was never as versatile in our offense as either Danny or Kawhi. He also commanded a smaller salary than either of them will. And perhaps his biggest contribution, he forced opposing teams to adjust their normal offensive gameplan while his strengths allowed him to perfectly fit into ours.

Kawhi is MUCH more athletically gifted, and a better rebounder, scorer, and defender of strong guys. Danny is a much better shot-blocker, and a more versatile shooter. Both will command a much higher salary, and in Kawhi's case, dictate the flow of our own offense. It's not really an apples-to-apples comparison.

[Hoops Czar]

I felt like Lebron dominated but didn't "dominate" if that makes sense.

No, that doesn't make sense.


If you see that '07 video, damn, Lebron had no trouble doing what he wanted against Bowen, 0 resistance, kept on sucking in the defense.... Lebron scored on Leonard but couldn't get that kind of position, couldn't break down the defense and get easy shots like he always does, all sorts of ball denial too.

So what you're actually saying is a 23 year old Kawhi Leonard is a better defender than a 35 year old Bruce Bowen. Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a wiener!

[barbacoataco]

Like many of you, I watched the entire Bowen era and have seen the entire Kawhi/Danny era as well.

My memory of Bowen is that he was a very different kind of defender than either of our current wings. I remember him struggling against "strong" wings, but being very good at guarding traditional 1-3 players, and the occasional jump-shooting 4. He was better at guarding PGs than Kawhi, and better at guarding 4s than Green. He was also very much a specialist, relying on foot/hand speed, psychological games, and the corner 3.

Much of Bowen's success came from the fact that he had a very narrow role on the team, and got exceptionally good within that niche. Hound ball handlers and shooters. Funnel to the bigs. Hit a long jumper from 2-3 spots on the floor. He was never as versatile in our offense as either Danny or Kawhi. He also commanded a smaller salary than either of them will. And perhaps his biggest contribution, he forced opposing teams to adjust their normal offensive gameplan while his strengths allowed him to perfectly fit into ours.

Kawhi is MUCH more athletically gifted, and a better rebounder, scorer, and defender of strong guys. Danny is a much better shot-blocker, and a more versatile shooter. Both will command a much higher salary, and in Kawhi's case, dictate the flow of our own offense. It's not really an apples-to-apples comparison.
That's a pretty fair assessment.

[barbacoataco]

Another way to look at this argument, I think you could replace Green with Bowen on this current team and the spurs would be slightly better. But if you replaced Leonard with Bowen they would not be championship contenders.

[dabom]

Kawhi is already better than bowen would ever be. That includes defense too.

[dabom]

Green not so much though.

[Floyd Pacquiao]

spurs offense would take a hit if you replaced the greatest 3 point shooter in finals history with Bowen.

[dabom]

spurs offense would take a hit if you replaced the greatest 3 point shooter in finals history with Bowen.

icy cold? Dude hurt just as much as he helped. :lol

[Floyd Pacquiao]

icy cold? Dude hurt just as much as he helped. :lol
Made more 3s in 1 finals than Bowen did in 3:lol. Green can also put the ball on the floor and make floaters. Bowen on the other hand looked like a woman from the 40s trying to dribble :lol

[dabom]

Made more 3s in 1 finals than Bowen did in 3:lol. Green can also put the ball on the floor and make floaters. Bowen on the other hand looked like a woman from the 40s trying to dribble :lol

Green also shat the bed when we fed him the ball in game 6 and 7. Unplayable at that point. Hurt us fucking bad. :lol
Bowen made up the offense with his elite defense. Green is never getting close to that. :lol

[Floyd Pacquiao]

Green also shat the bed when we fed him the ball in game 6 and 7. Unplayable at that point. Hurt us fucking bad. :lol
Bowen made up the offense with his elite defense. Green is never getting close to that. :lol

Green "never getting close to bowens' elite defense " :lol green has actually shut down stars like Stephen curry and dwade. Bowen on the other hand just held them to their averages :lol

[dabom]

Green "never getting close to bowens' elite defense " :lol green has actually shut down stars like Stephen curry and dwade. Bowen on the other hand just held them to their averages :lol

Green can't even dribble without turning it over. :lol

He likes to pass to the opposition in crunch time. :lol

8 time nba all defensive team. :lol

[hater]

Green can't even dribble without turning it over. :lol

He likes to pass to the opposition in crunch time. :lol

8 time nba all defensive team. :lol

truth nukes from short busser :tu

props tbqh

[Chinook]

Green "never getting close to bowens' elite defense " :lol green has actually shut down stars like Stephen curry and dwade. Bowen on the other hand just held them to their averages :lol

Dabom is a devout follower of the CoK. He has to believe Green is poor on defense so that Leonard looks better. It's just like CoM and CoP folks keep constantly argue that the other player sucks or is washed up.

[hater]

Bowen > Green easy.

[dabom]

Bowen > Green easy.

:tu

[dabom]

Dabom is a devout follower of the CoK. He has to believe Green is poor on defense so that Leonard looks better. It's just like CoM and CoP folks keep constantly argue that the other player sucks or is washed up.

Two of those are last names but you use kawhi's first name to try to make a suble joke. Fail :td

[barbacoataco]

Those who are trashing Bowen need to go over to basketballreference.com and refresh their memory regarding his 43% career playoff 3 pt and that fact that he shot well every year in the playoffs.

[hater]

is Kawhi better than Bowen? sure he is. overall better ball player and better asset.

But better defender? no I'd say no. Kawhi has yet to lock down the opponent's superstars EVERY SINGLE NIGHT. to be fair, I don't think Kawhi will get there. He cannot be a defensive specialist like Bowen because he needs to spend so much energy on the offensive end. He will never be like Bowen type defender. We probably never will have another Bowen tbh.

[dabom]

is Kawhi better than Bowen? sure he is. overall better ball player and better asset.

But better defender? no I'd say no. Kawhi has yet to lock down the opponent's superstars EVERY SINGLE NIGHT. to be fair, I don't think Kawhi will get there. He cannot be a defensive specialist like Bowen because he needs to spend so much energy on the offensive end. He will never be like Bowen type defender. We probably never will have another Bowen tbh.

This is were we differ. Kawhi is guarding russ, durant, lebron, and a ton of other great players with great success. He also brings in defensive rebounds which is part of defense. Kawhi's defensive impact is already greater than bowen.
TBH bowen didn't always shut down players but that happens. Showed up for the majority of the games.

[Chinook]

Two of those are last names but you use kawhi's first name to try to make a suble joke. Fail :td

Manu is his last name?

[dabom]

For some reason I thought you were talking about something else.

[hater]

This is were we differ. Kawhi is guarding russ, durant, lebron, and a ton of other great players with great success.

they usually shoot close to their percentages and #s tbh. disagree



He also brings in defensive rebounds which is part of defense. Kawhi's defensive impact is already greater than bowen.

wholeheartedly disagree. We'll check back when Kawhi gets at least 5 all nba defensive teams tbh

[Chinook]

For some reason I thought you were talking about something else.

Nah. Those terms aren't thrown around as much nowadays, but they were firmly established a long time ago. I imagine they would have called it the CoT, but that would have been confusing with Tim on the team.

[Chinook]

they usually shoot close to their percentages and #s tbh. disagree

Lol, no they don't. Both Green and Leonard hold their oppoents to terrible PPPs on average. Sure, there are some games where they get caught reaching too much (Kawhi WCF Game Six, Green Finals Game Four), but their overall PPP allowed is insane, especially in the playoffs. Meanwhile, Bowen's was pretty mediocre.

[hater]

Facts disagree:
2013 Playoffs:
Lebron 49% 25pts/g
Wade 45% 16pts/g

2013 Finals
Lebron 45% 26pts/g
Wade 47% 20pts/g

[Chinook]

Facts disagree:
2013 Playoffs:
Lebron 49% 25pts/g
Wade 45% 16pts/g

2013 Finals
Lebron 45% 26pts/g
Wade 47% 20pts/g

Lol, did the 2014 Finals not happen in your book?

[hater]

Lol, did the 2014 Finals not happen in your book?

Bowen played Elite D for over 10 years. So 1 finals should count as 10 years? Lol

[Chinook]

Bowen played Elite D for over 10 years. So 1 finals should count as 10 years? Lol

I love how you called his D elite while at the same time as admitting that Green and Leonard do the same job now, except that you cherry-picked a bad series to show that. It's even more hilarious that pretty much every other series that they've had has been far and away superior to any of Bowen's.

[spurraider21]

I love how Carlos Boozer single-handedly killed defensive rating, tbh:lol..
Boozer and DRating is like Horry and ring counts :lol

[Floyd Pacquiao]

Dabom is a devout follower of the CoK. He has to believe Green is poor on defense so that Leonard looks better. It's just like CoM and CoP folks keep constantly argue that the other player sucks or is washed up.

Yeah I see that, sad...smh playerfans

[hater]

I love how you called his D elite while at the same time as admitting that Green and Leonard do the same job now, except that you cherry-picked a bad series to show that. It's even more hilarious that pretty much every other series that they've had has been far and away superior to any of Bowen's.

:lmao cherrypicking. says the guy that is comparing the defensive effects of 2 players vs. 1 player :lol

my advice: pick 1 player and argue his vs. Bowen. If you pick Green you already lost so might as well pick Kawhi. Kawhi has been playing ELITE defense for 1 playoffs, 2014. And that's being generous because Kawhi was nowhere to be seen vs. Dallas and Portland.

1 playoffs vs. 10 all nba defenses and playoffs. LOL

[Chinook]

:lmao cherrypicking. says the guy that is comparing the defensive effects of 2 players vs. 1 player :lol
LOL

You should learn what 'cherry-picking' is.

Green and Leonard have multiple series in which they held their charges to low averages. Green has Paul in 2012 (and OKC in those WCF, but people ignore that because he didn't shoot well, which made Pop panic and bench him), Curry in 2013, Ellis (for the times Pop woke up and actually put Danny on him), Durant/Westbrook and Wade (not to mention every other Heat or Thunder player Pop put him on in those series) in 2014. Leonard had Thompson in 2013 and Batum/Matthews and James in 2014. These were not series where the players got their averages and just had to work harder.

They were incredibly inefficient and turned the ball over a lot. It's simply silly to pretend that Bowen did anything like that. The best any honest fan can do is to argue that the league was so different back then that Bowen's mediocre numbers were the best anyone could have done. And we'll never know. But I will say that player to player, the Spurs have had tougher scorers to check recently than they did back then.

You want to give Bowen bonus points for being the Spurs' only perimeter defender during those times. And outside of Manu for stretches, that may be true. However, Green and Leonard can't help the fact that they play together. They're so far ahead of Bowen in their individual results that it's silly to pretend otherwise.

Swap Bowen for Green, and the Spurs don't even beat Dallas last year. Meanwhile, the Spurs still beat the Suns and Lakers those years. Dallas was a different beast, and Bowen was clearly not qualified for that matchup. Neither Kawhi nor especially Green would have done any better there.

[hater]

^ glad you mention prime Manu. Danny Green's D is comparable to that of prime Manu and prime Manu can't hold Bowen's jockstrap defensively. Therefore, Bowen >>>> Green Defensively and it's not even close.

as I said above Kawhi has been playing ELITE D for about 1 year. He showed flashes his first couple of years, but consistency was lacking. If he can play lockdown D like he played his last 2 series in 2014 for the next say 5 years, then and onlly then we can have a serious conversation of Bowen vs. Kawhi on D.

[Chinook]

^ glad you mention prime Manu. Danny Green's D is comparable to that of prime Manu and prime Manu can't hold Bowen's jockstrap defensively. Therefore, Bowen >>>> Green Defensively and it's not even close.

Probably your worst logic ever. Not to mention that it's completely unsubstantiated.


as I said above Kawhi has been playing ELITE D for about 1 year. He showed flashes his first couple of years, but consistency was lacking. If he can play lockdown D like he played his last 2 series in 2014 for the next say 5 years, then and onlly then we can have a serious conversation of Bowen vs. Kawhi on D.

You keep ignoring that they aren't playing to his level -- they have FAR SURPASSED it for three years in a row. Your logic is like saying that there's no way for Mills to be a better player than Avery Johnson because he hasn't had a whole career yet.

[hater]

:lol saying 2012 Kawhi and Green were anything but decent roleplayers :lol

:lol still comparing 2 players vs 1 player :lol

[dabom]

Kawhi pretty much carried in 2012. Made us instant contenders. Too bad refs fucked us over from an amazing season and playoffs. :lol
Kawhi was the big one before anyone knew he was the big one. :lol

[barbacoataco]

The more I think about this it is important to separate Leonard from Green. Leonard won a Finals MVP and has undoubtably been the difference makers for the Spurs. Green on the other hand is very streaky and can be as much of a handicap at times as he is a help at others. And I see his defense as above average but not all nba like Bowen and Leonard.

[KL2]

No, that doesn't make sense.

Yes, if a guy is scoring his points when his team is down by such a large margin, doing damage when Leonard is on the bench, not drawing defensive attention like he could, able to do what he pleases, getting the entire offense ran through him with all sorts of offensive help and being guarded 1v1, those stats aren't shit lol.




So what you're actually saying is a 23 year old Kawhi Leonard is a better defender than a 35 year old Bruce Bowen. Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a wiener!

Acting like Bowen completely fell off in '07 lmao, he was pretty much the same defender he always was, didn't fall off that much. He always stayed injury free, and had a limited role keeping him completely fresh his whole career. Always had strength problems because he was just 200lbs (like many SF's of the past)...

Let's not act like a 22 year old 240lb Lebron was in his prime in '07 either, 30lbs lighter than he would be in his prime with all sorts of championship experience in '14.

[barbacoataco]

Bowen had lost a step in quickness by 2007. In fact he was at his best back in 2003. People forget he was brought in by the Spurs to defend Kobe. Kobe had a faster first step back in the early 90's than any current player.

[Malik Hairston]

:lol it's comical that there are still Spurs fans that don't realize that 2013 and 2014 Danny Green played at a playoffs level that has rarely been seen from a role perimeter player in the history of the league, tbh..

A 3&D guy with a near-17 PER in the playoffs is extremely rare, let alone his elite on/off metrics and historic 65% True Shooting..

[hater]

Bowen had lost a step in quickness by 2007. In fact he was at his best back in 2003. People forget he was brought in by the Spurs to defend Kobe. Kobe had a faster first step back in the early 90's than any current player.

truth nuke

[hater]

The more I think about this it is important to separate Leonard from Green. Leonard won a Finals MVP and has undoubtably been the difference makers for the Spurs. Green on the other hand is very streaky and can be as much of a handicap at times as he is a help at others. And I see his defense as above average but not all nba like Bowen and Leonard.

:tu cosign

[MB20]

What Bowen did to Lebron back in the 2007 finals was a thing of beauty. He shut down LBJ.
Tony deserved his FMVP. But, imo, Bruce was a close second.

[apalisoc_9]

:lol it's comical that there are still Spurs fans that don't realize that 2013 and 2014 Danny Green played at a playoffs level that has rarely been seen from a role perimeter player in the history of the league, tbh..

A 3&D guy with a near-17 PER in the playoffs is extremely rare, let alone his elite on/off metrics and historic 65% True Shooting..

[hater]

What Bowen did to Lebron back in the 2007 finals was a thing of beauty. He shut down LBJ.
Tony deserved his FMVP. But, imo, Bruce was a close second.

pretty much on point :tu

props

[apalisoc_9]

2014 Danny Green> Any Version of Bruce Bowen.

[dabom]

2014 Danny Green> Any Version of Bruce Bowen.

I don't believe so.

[in2deep]

2014 Danny Green> Any Version of Bruce Bowen.

stupid take

[timtonymanu]

:lol I love Bowen but the nostalgic Spurs fans are so sensitive.

[apalisoc_9]

:lol I love Bowen but the nostalgic Spurs fans are so sensitive.

:lmao

[Chinook]

stupid take

Probably deserves a bit more explanation. I do agree, though, that 2014 Green was probably the worst year he had as a starter. Dude was unreal in 2012. He had tremendous moments on both ends in 2013. He was good but understanded in 2014 (though he had two great defensive series in the finals and WCF), and he's been a straight beast this season.

I don't think you could slide any version of Bowen into any of those years' Greens and get a better result.

[Johnny RIngo]

I don't think you could slide any version of Bowen into any of those years' Greens and get a better result.

His shooting was unreal against the Heat. Could have been Finals MVP. I can't recall Bowen ever being anywhere near that impactful.

[Johnny RIngo]

:lol still comparing 2 players vs 1 player :lol

Should also be noted that Bowen played next to prime TD. So the comparison isn't really as simple as 2 vs 1.

[in2deep]

His shooting was unreal against the Heat. Could have been Finals MVP. I can't recall Bowen ever being anywhere near that impactful.

in 2013 he went cold at the worst time. and in 2014 he shoot way too few shots to call it unreal. .

[in2deep]

Probably deserves a bit more explanation. I do agree, though, that 2014 Green was probably the worst year he had as a starter. Dude was unreal in 2012. He had tremendous moments on both ends in 2013. He was good but understanded in 2014 (though he had two great defensive series in the finals and WCF), and he's been a straight beast this season.

I don't think you could slide any version of Bowen into any of those years' Greens and get a better result.

disagree. he was average in 2012. Went cold at the worst time in 2013. Very very good in 2014 and efficient :tu and he's been struggling the last 2 months of this season. Love him but he's no Bruce Bowen yet

[Malik Hairston]

^^fans that rely on the "eye test":lol..

[timtonymanu]

It's amazing how many Spurs fans still underrate Danny Green.

[in2deep]

^^ Fans that root for a spurs player injury and take leaves of absences :lol...

[dabom]

^^fans that rely on the "eye test":lol..

Except he's telling the truth.

[apalisoc_9]

"eye" test:lmao

[Johnny RIngo]

in 2013 he went cold at the worst time. and in 2014 he shoot way too few shots to call it unreal. .

We went into that series against a 66 win team...without homecourt advantage. It's because of Green's shooting that we were even in a positon to win. Not his fault that the "MVP candidate" first option on the team picked the worst time to choke. Tony let everyone down. Manu too but expectations were low for Ginobili considering his overall season and playoffs weren't too good to begin with. Replace Green in that series with any version of Bowen and we probably lose in five/six games.

[Chinook]

disagree. he was average in 2012. Went cold at the worst time in 2013. Very very good in 2014 and efficient :tu and he's been struggling the last 2 months of this season. Love him but he's no Bruce Bowen yet

You must not remember 2012. It's still his best year as a Spur (ever) by a pretty large margin now that he's come back to Earth a bit this year. 2013 he had a great playoffs including the Finals (Spurs would have won in five had anyone else showed up for Game Two). Last year, he didn't have many signature plays. He was the best defender in the last two series, but he was held in check for the most part offensively. This season he started off as a top 3-5 SG and is now hanging around 10 or so. We'll see what happens after the break.

[Chinook]

Except he's telling the truth.

You do realize that the "eye test" still isn't, "I know what I see", right? It's still things you can talk about, evaluate and challenge. I think "eye test" folks would have a much stronger argument if they actually tried to make point instead of just saying their view is self-evident.

[TheGreatYacht]

Bruce stopped Lebron.
Everyone on the Heat was stopped, except for Kawhi's assignment.

This isn't even close. Tbqh

[Chinook]

Bruce stopped Lebron.
Everyone on the Heat was stopped, except for Kawhi's assignment.

This isn't even close. Tbqh

Pretty sure there's a vid posted in this very thread showing how Lebron was defended in 2007. Both Bowen and Leonard get too much credit for their individual defense against James. It took an army both times.

[dabom]

You do realize that the "eye test" still isn't, "I know what I see", right? It's still things you can talk about, evaluate and challenge. I think "eye test" folks would have a much stronger argument if they actually tried to make point instead of just saying their view is self-evident.

I know what I watch and the stats and the context better than you tbh. I don't just really on the eye test.

[dabom]

Pretty sure there's a vid posted in this very thread showing how Lebron was defended in 2007. Both Bowen and Leonard get too much credit for their individual defense against James. It took an army both times.

If the initial defender sucks, your team is going to lose no matter who you have back there. Kinda like tony this year.
The credit is warranted.

[Chinook]

I know what I watch

Bruh, you're gonna have to learn that this isn't argument as much as it's filler. It's a direct refusal to actually discuss something.


and the stats and the context better than you tbh.

You haven't demonstrated any knowledge of stats. You've only demonstrated skepticism toward them. But you think Fundamentalists are awesome biologists too.


I don't just really on the eye test.

You don't even rely on the eye test. You rely on just saying "yep, I'm right" over and over.

[dabom]

Chinook so mad. :lmao

[Chinook]

If the initial defender sucks, your team is going to lose no matter who you have back there. Kinda like tony this year. The credit is warranted.

Whatever on that bolded part.

But you're wrong on the remaining parts. Players who can't shoot like 07 Lebron could be contained by collapsing the paint. Not saying Bowen has bad by any means, since he was able to funnel James into Duncan on some of those blocks. But no way that level of defense would have stopped 2013 James.

[Chinook]

Chinook so mad. :lmao

I'm almost certain I've been more "mad" from your posts than right now. In fact, I'd say that's more of an olive branch than anything. I'm asking you to show why you think Bowen is better. That's by no means a sign of "madness".

[dabom]

Whatever on that bolded part.

But you're wrong on the remaining parts. Players who can't shoot like 07 Lebron could be contained by collapsing the paint. Not saying Bowen has bad by any means, since he was able to funnel James into Duncan on some of those blocks. But no way that level of defense would have stopped 2013 James.

I don't know. We did 4-0 them in 2007. We lost in 2013 because the initial defender wasn't playing tight defense. Kawhi was doing as told by pop and playing off of him. We lost in 2013 because pop didn't change his strat. I'm sure 2007 bruce bowen could play suffocating defense like he usually does. Sure he also played off of lebron in 2007 but to say he couldn't play tight man defense is fucking idiotic.

[dabom]

I'm saying bowen is better than green not kawhi but I can play too.

[Chinook]

I don't know. We did 4-0 them in 2007. We lost in 2013 because the initial defender wasn't playing tight defense. Kawhi was doing as told by pop and playing off of him.

See something like that is not the "eye test". It completely ignores that James was significantly better and that the Heat were significantly better than the 07 Cavs. James didn't have a post game back then (pretty much no one Bowen faced had one outside of Kobe and Dirk (and we know how well Bowen guarded Dirk), and that was a huge reason why Pop couldn't change his strategy.

Also, the league is different now, and "playing suffocating defense" for a whole series is pretty much impossible in today's foul-driven league. Finally, Tim being more mobile in 07 allowed Bowen to play tighter defense. Green and Leonard have to funnel their men to specific spots in order for Tim to get there. 07 Duncan could pick up players on the PnR. Current Tim at least allows an open jumper.

None of this mentions that James only had one poor game in 2007. So it's not like Bowen had a ton of success against him. That finals was one HoFer in his youth versus three HoFers at or near their primes. It was by no means the same as the 2013 series.

[Chinook]

I'm saying bowen is better than green not kawhi but I can play too.

Nah, you were saying Bowen's 2007 defense was better than Kawhi's 2013 (and maybe 2014) D. You've made no argument as to why Green's D isn't as good besides just repeating that it's not and laughing.

[dabom]

Nah, you were saying Bowen's 2007 defense was better than Kawhi's 2013 (and maybe 2014) D. You've made no argument as to why Green's D isn't as good besides just repeating that it's not and laughing.

Find a quote where I said that except the last one where I'm playing with you.

[Chinook]

Find a quote where I said that except the last one where I'm playing with you.

So you're saying now that you don't believe 2007 Bowen played better defense than 2013/2014 Kawhi? Or is your quote referencing something else?

[dabom]

So you're saying now that you don't believe 2007 Bowen played better defense than 2013/2014 Kawhi? Or is your quote referencing something else?

I don't know what ur saying man. Like seriously.

[dabom]

Just to be clear I don't what anyone is saying anymore.

[Chinook]

I don't know what ur saying man. Like seriously.


Find a quote where I said that

Where you said what? Which part of my previous posts are you denying? Are you saying you don't truly think Bowen defended James better than Kawhi or that you don't really think Bowen is better than Green? Or something else? I'm not even arguing anything; I'm asking for clarification of a quote I'm supposed to find.

[Wildcat67]

Bruce stopped Lebron.
Everyone on the Heat was stopped, except for Kawhi's assignment.

This isn't even close. Tbqh

You realize that Kawhi wasn't guarding LeBron for every single shot he took right? People that look at the final stats of the game and accredit those stats as all against a defender are either stupid, or being purposely obtuse.

Kawhi held LeBron well below his averages when he was on him. Unfortunately there are still fast breaks, switches, and obviously times when one isn't on the court.

[rasuo214]

2013/14 Lebron would destroy 2007 Lebron.

[TheGreatYacht]

No way in fucking hell would Bowen allow Barnes and Hayward to train him..