Rank the Spurs defenders.. [Archive]

Obstructed_View

01-20-2012, 11:04 PM

Kawhi Leonard >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
George Hill >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Michael Finley.

Amuseddaysleeper

01-20-2012, 11:06 PM

1. Tim Duncan
2. Splitter
3. Kawhi
4. Ginobili
5. Green
6. Parker
7. Anne Hathaway
8. Traffic Cone
9. Paper Cup
10. Dejuan Blair
11. Gary Neal
12. Open gym
13. Matt Bonner

timtonymanu

01-20-2012, 11:10 PM

1. Splitter
2. Duncan
3. Leonard
4. Manu
5. Green
6. Parker
7. Anderson (although lack of playing time won't show it)
8. Ford
9. Dick
10. Blair
11. Neal and Bonner

HarlemHeat37

01-20-2012, 11:12 PM

Blair, Bonner and Neal are difficult to rank, tbh..

ElNono

01-20-2012, 11:39 PM

IMO

Good
1. Tiago Splitter
2. Tim Duncan
3. Kawhi Leonard

Above average
4. Manu Ginobili
5. Danny Green

Average
6. Tony Parker
7. James Anderson

Below average
8. TJ Ford

Poor
9. Richard Jefferson
10. Dejuan Blair
11. Matt Bonner
12. Gary Neal

WeNeedLength

01-20-2012, 11:42 PM

TJastal

01-20-2012, 11:46 PM

We suck so doesnt matter. TD has been very bad on D this year, Splitter has been very good. Spurs players know they are not going anywhere, Pops still cant develop players we draft, Anderson is a coach......why we drafted Joseph in the first round is beyond me, he may be a good player in 3 years but other guys we could have used still on the board at 29.

With any luck we slide into the lotto, and win the top pick like in 97 with TD, grab the Jumping Wildcat to plug in at the 4 and make a last stand next year.

Pops needs to shut TD and Manu Down and develop Anderson Green and KL and try again next year.

Were there any good impact bigs (looking back in hindsight) the spurs could have nabbed @ 29?

SenorSpur

01-21-2012, 03:57 AM

We suck so doesnt matter. TD has been very bad on D this year, Splitter has been very good. Spurs players know they are not going anywhere, Pops still cant develop players we draft, Anderson is a coach......why we drafted Joseph in the first round is beyond me, he may be a good player in 3 years but other guys we could have used still on the board at 29.

With any luck we slide into the lotto, and win the top pick like in 97 with TD, grab the Jumping Wildcat to plug in at the 4 and make a last stand next year.

Pops needs to shut TD and Manu Down and develop Anderson Green and KL and try again next year.

If Pop continues to enforce his stubbornly-dumb decisons like, limiting the productive on-court play of Tiago Splitter by choosing to play Matt Bonner over him, and forcing Gary Neal into a regular backup PG role over Cory Joseph, the Spurs will not need as much luck to fall into the lotto. They'll be able to easily miss the playoff and slide into that made-for-tv event.

angelbelow

01-21-2012, 04:10 AM

I'd go:

Good
1. Tiago Splitter
2. Tim Duncan

Above average
3. Kawhi Leonard
4. Manu Ginobili

Average
5. Tony Parker
6. Danny Green
7. James Anderson

Below average
8. Richard Jefferson
9. TJ Ford

Poor
10. Dejuan Blair
11. Matt Bonner
12. Gary Neal

I agree, but I think Blair is slowly creeping into the Below average tier. He needs to be consistent with his effort/activity and remain patient. Also his defensive rebounding needs a bump. We'll see where he ends up at the end of the year.

TJastal

01-21-2012, 04:18 AM

I agree, but I think Blair is slowly creeping into the Below average tier. He needs to be consistent with his effort/activity and remain patient. Also his defensive rebounding needs a bump. We'll see where he ends up at the end of the year.

If anything I would think he's creeping into the tier below Poor. When you surrender a league leading PER to your opponent in head-to-head matchups, you're defense probably needs some work.

angelbelow

01-21-2012, 04:23 AM

If anything I would think he's creeping into the tier below Poor. When you surrender a league leading PER to your opponent in head-to-head matchups, you're defense probably needs some work.

Hes unlikely to ever be anything above "below average". Thats probably his ceiling as far as potential is concerned. But hes flashed some nice defensive games this season. In certain stretches of the game hes play passable defense without making critical errors the rest of the games. Blair is hard to rank but I think hes attempting to tip the scale from poor to below average. Heres to being optimistic.

TJastal

01-21-2012, 04:30 AM

Hes unlikely to ever be anything above "below average". Thats probably his ceiling as far as potential is concerned. But hes flashed some nice defensive games this season. In certain stretches of the game hes play passable defense without making critical errors the rest of the games. Blair is hard to rank but I think hes attempting to tip the scale from poor to below average. Heres to being optimistic.

I won't comment harshly seeing as I haven't seen many games this year. Mainly basing my opinions on some of the advanced stats Timvp has nicely laid out for us all, plus Timvp's and others' personal observations, plus what I know about Blair from last year and bits and pieces this year.

Just seems to me like game by game, a regression is taking place, not only on the boards, but in the defensive front. Alot of people have said he is not boxing out hard, that he's gotten lazy and instead of sticking his nose in he stands and watches instead. These are all not good signs. Maybe all those other GM's that passed on him in the draft knew something Pop didn't.

angelbelow

01-21-2012, 04:51 AM

I won't comment harshly seeing as I haven't seen many games this year. Mainly basing my opinions on some of the advanced stats Timvp has nicely laid out for us all, plus Timvp's and others' personal observations, plus what I know about Blair from last year and bits and pieces this year.

Just seems to me like game by game, a regression is taking place, not only on the boards, but in the defensive front. Alot of people have said he is not boxing out hard, that he's gotten lazy and instead of sticking his nose in he stands and watches instead. These are all not good signs. Maybe all those other GM's that passed on him in the draft knew something Pop didn't.

I've caught maybe half the games so far and you're absolutely right about the recent games, namely the game against the Kings.

And keep in mind, I never said Blair was "below average" rather than he may be "slowly creeping" from poor to below average. Hes definitely not consistent enough but I think hes shown stretches of being a capable defender. (This too is reflected in the game thoughts - but more so the games earlier in the season.)

Blair's main problem is is consistency regarding his focus and his effort. He'll be extremely active and disruptive for a few possessions but stop and take it easy on others. And his defensive rebounding continues to be a concern.

therealtruth

01-21-2012, 05:22 AM

Defensive rebounding is a critical part of good defense. Once you've gotten the stop you need to make sure you get the ball.

TDMVPDPOY

01-21-2012, 05:24 AM

Defensive rebounding is a critical part of good defense. Once you've gotten the stop you need to make sure you get the ball.

todays game was fkn frustrating, watchin splitters defensive efforts goto waste altering alot of drive-bys, only to see the pansy bigs on the team cant grab a defensive rebound, only give up another 2nd opportunity basket...

timvp

01-21-2012, 03:34 PM

WTF, Splitter a better defender than Duncan? :lol This old version of Duncan is still a much better defender than Splitter in just about every area. Splitter definitely has the tools to be damn good on defense but he's still adjusting to the NBA and he's a work in progress regarding where to be in the Spurs defensive schemes. Duncan is stiff some games and can get lazy in other games but when the chips are down, there's no question he's the team's best defender right now.

As of today, my list would be:

Good
1. Tim Duncan (Ranging from great to slightly above average depending on how well he's moving and how hard he's trying.)

Above average
2. Manu Ginobili (Very good team defender, average at best individual defender.)
3. Tony Parker (Very good individual defender when he's actually focused [which unfortunately is the case only like 50% of the time in the regular season]. Average at best team defender.)

Have the ability to be very good but too raw to be classified as much more than average
4. Tiago Splitter
5. Kawhi Leonard

Mistake prone but has made up for it this season with effort
6. Danny Green
7. TJ Ford

Fundamentally sound but struggle in intense situations
8. Matt Bonner
9. Richard Jefferson

Well below average
10. James Anderson

Bad to really bad due largely to being short and unathletic for their position
11. DeJuan Blair
12. Gary Neal

ElNono

01-21-2012, 03:47 PM

Fundamentally sound
8. Matt Bonner

Can you explain this one for me? The reasoning behind that.

Not trolling, BTW. My allergy towards Matt defensively isn't new, but what I actually think is terrible about him defensively is actually his fundamentals.

It's quite possible we have a different concept of what we consider fundamentals though.

TJastal

01-21-2012, 03:49 PM

timvp

01-21-2012, 03:55 PM

Can you explain this one for me? The reasoning behind that.

Not trolling, BTW. My allergy towards Matt defensively isn't new, but what I actually think is terrible about him defensively is actually his fundamentals.

It's quite possible we have a different concept of what we consider fundamentals though.

Fundamentally sound meaning he knows where to be in the Spurs defensive scheme and is almost always in the right position. Bonner rarely makes mental mistakes defensively and doesn't deviate from the gameplan. (Top three fundamentally sound defenders on this team are probably Duncan, Parker and Bonner. Ginobili would probably be next but he loses some standing in this category since he likes to roam so much.)

That said, Bonner is still average at his absolute ceiling because players can still score on him if he's technically doing everything right due to his lack of length and lack of athleticism. And the few times he does make a mental mistake, it's extra glaring because he has no ability to get back into the play and redeem himself.

And while I say Bonner is fundamentally sound, I'd say he has bad instincts. Someone like Robert Horry wasn't too long or athletic but he was both fundamentally sound and had fantastic instincts so he was able to be an asset on defense even when it appeared he was overmatched.

ElNono

01-21-2012, 03:59 PM

Tangential to this thread... You tell me this guy couldn't be helping coach a guy like Leonard right now...

FGUfNUv6llI

Miss Bruce :depressed

jjktkk

01-21-2012, 04:00 PM

And while I say Bonner is fundamentally sound, I'd say he has bad instincts. Someone like Robert Horry wasn't too long or athletic but he was both fundamentally sound and had fantastic instincts so he was able to be an asset on defense even when it appeared he was overmatched.

Interesting point. Without really thinking about it, I would assume if one was fundamentally sound, his instincts would be sound as well.

ElNono

01-21-2012, 04:16 PM

Fundamentally sound meaning he knows where to be in the Spurs defensive scheme and is almost always in the right position. Bonner rarely makes mental mistakes defensively and doesn't deviate from the gameplan. (Top three fundamentally sound defenders on this team are probably Duncan, Parker and Bonner. Ginobili would probably be next but he loses some standing in this category since he likes to roam so much.)

That said, Bonner is still average at his absolute ceiling because players can still score on him if he's technically doing everything right due to his lack of length and lack of athleticism. And the few times he does make a mental mistake, it's extra glaring because he has no ability to get back into the play and redeem himself.

And while I say Bonner is fundamentally sound, I'd say he has bad instincts. Someone like Robert Horry wasn't too long or athletic but he was both fundamentally sound and had fantastic instincts so he was able to be an asset on defense even when it appeared he was overmatched.

Okay, that's what I thought. You were referring to his fundamentals with regards to the system, not in basketball generally (what you call instincts). I don't disagree that he puts the effort out there to do what's asked to do.

If I had to rank his general defensive fundamentals it would probably go along these lines:

- Effort: Excellent
- Basic stance: Good
- Overall footwork (staying in front of his man, lateral movement): Average
- Overall rebounding (boxing out, positioning): Below average
- Paint defense (charges, contesting shots, shot blocking): Poor

As far as within the system, I still think his rotations (brain farts) are still fairly common for a guy that's been in the system for a while. Like you pointed out, whenever that happens, his slow feet probably magnifies it even more.

siraulo23

01-21-2012, 04:52 PM

IMO

Good
1. Tiago Splitter
2. Tim Duncan
3. Kawhi Leonard

Above average
4. Manu Ginobili
5. Danny Green
6. Tony Parker

Average

Below average
7. James Anderson
8. TJ Ford
9. Richard Jefferson

Poor
10. Dejuan Blair
11. Matt Bonner
12. Gary Neal

My list

bugmenot

11-25-2012, 02:10 PM

What about this year?

spurraider21

11-25-2012, 02:33 PM

Duncan

everyone else

BackHome

11-25-2012, 02:42 PM

Very Good:
Duncan
Kawhi

Good:
Green

Bad:
Everyone else

8FOR!3

11-25-2012, 03:27 PM

All the guys I rated as average are on the upside of that though, none of those are borderline below.

Above Average:
Kawhi Leonard
Tim Duncan

Average:
Tony Parker
Danny Green
Manu Ginobili
Stephen Jackson
Boris Diaw
Tiago Splitter

Below Average:
Nando de Colo
Patty Mills
Gary Neal
DeJuan Blair
Matt Bonner

timvp

11-25-2012, 03:58 PM

:lmao @ anyone who thought Splitter was ever the best defender on the Spurs.

Malik Hairston

11-25-2012, 04:20 PM

:lol ya I have no idea what we were all thinking at the time..it was during Splitter's God-mode stretch IIRC..

ELITE
Tim Duncan (probably the best defender in the NBA so far)

Above average

Danny Green (in the "good" category vs. PGs)
Kawhi Leonard (sometimes average)
Tiago Splitter (sometimes average)

Average

Tony Parker (above average to good when he's focused)
Stephen Jackson (above average vs. SF/PF tweeners or small ball)
Manu Ginobili
Boris Diaw

TDMVPDPOY

11-25-2012, 04:21 PM

dont u guys think danny green gives his man to much spacing?

timvp

11-25-2012, 04:38 PM

Based just on this year, I'd put the order at:

1. Tim Duncan (stud so far)

2. Tony Parker (he's been focused to start the season)

3. Kawhi Leonard (for his steals; not sure if he can rely on steals long-term)
4. Danny Green (not spectacular but solid and avoiding big mistakes unlike last year)
5. Stephen Jackson (I could be convinced putting him third based on his ability to thrive in small ball)

6. Manu Ginobili (but when he's isolated and trying hard, he's been pretty damn awesome ... unfortch, injury has limited his overall D impact thus far)

7. Gary Neal (huge improvement from last year but still below average overall)
8. Boris Diaw (was fantastic early but his D has been sporadic the last couple weeks -- and he doesn't rebound)
9. DeJuan Blair (a lot better than last year but he has a low ceiling)

10. Tiago Splitter (he's living up to like 1/10th of his D potential right now)

11. Matt Bonner (no rebounding kills his D value)

12. Nando De Colo (length helps him a little bit but still not very good yet)
13. Patty Mills (tiny and hasn't yet figured out how to compensate)

Drom John

11-26-2012, 10:18 AM

Defensive Win Shares (Defense * playing time)
1.0 Duncan
0.5 Green
0.5 Leonard
0.4 Parker
0.4 Ginobili
0.3 Diaw
0.3 Splitter
0.3 Blair
0.3 Jackson
0.2 Neal
0.1 Bonner
0.1 Mills
0.1 De Colo
0.0 Joseph

Defensive Rating (per 100 posessions)
95 Duncan
98 Blair
98 Leonard
101 Jackson
102 Ginobili
103 Splitter
103 Green
104 Mills
104 Diaw
105 De Colo
105 Neal
106 Bonner
106 Parker
Inc. Joseph

Early sample size. Eyes lie. Bonner sucks. Bonner > Parker.

TDMVPDPOY

11-26-2012, 10:20 AM

i dont think this spurs team will ever get back to the good old days of spurs championship basketball defensive orientated.....

we have the players, but they dont seem to be up the level we want them to play defensively....spurs should just concentrate playing elite defense for a couple of minutes during games or stoppages that could steal wins or limit the offensive production of the other team....

TDMVPDPOY

11-26-2012, 10:23 AM

Defensive Win Shares (Defense * playing time)

0.4 Parker

Defensive Rating (per 100 posessions)
106 Parker

Early sample size. Eyes lie. Bonner sucks. Bonner > Parker.

defensive win shares and any defensive rating that has got anything to do with that scrub tony parker is immune on this forum....it doesnt help when the league is filled with very good pgs also who can get theirs against TP...but if you look at all the PGs in the league and check their defensive rating, they would also be at the bottom of the list with parker....

bklynspursfan

11-26-2012, 11:30 AM

Very Good:
Duncan
Kawhi

Good:
Green

Bad:
Everyone else

Surely you can find a spot for Jackson in there...

ElNono

11-26-2012, 02:05 PM

IMO:

Excellent:
Duncan

Above average:
Leonard
Jackson

Average:
Green
Manu
Tony
Diaw
Splitter
Joseph

Below Average:
De Colo
Mills
Bonner

Bad:
Neal
Blair

Mel_13

11-26-2012, 02:12 PM

Slightly OT, but not threadworthy.

Using the defensive rating stat on basketball reference, the Spurs are currently tied for 4th in overall defense in the NBA and tied for 1st in the Western Conference. They are also T4 in the NBA and T1 in the WC in terms of opponents eFG%.

Still 21st in defensive rebounding, so plenty of room to improve.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2013.html

Darius Bieber

11-26-2012, 02:47 PM

God Tier:
Bruce Bowen

Good:
Tim Duncan
Kawhi Leonard

Average:
Manu Ginobili
Tony Parker

Below:
Everyone else

timvp

11-26-2012, 04:26 PM

Defensive Win Shares (Defense * playing time)

Defensive Rating (per 100 posessions)

Both of those stats rely on rebounds, blocks and steals to judge defense. In the Spurs system (and, really, most systems), rebounds, blocks and steals don't even tell 1/10th of the story.

superjames1992

11-26-2012, 04:55 PM

Matt Bonner is not a "poor" defender. He sucks ass at rebounding. I'll give you that, but he tends to be in the right place most of the time and has the system down; he just doesn't have the athleticism and/or length to be any more than "average".

TD 21

11-26-2012, 05:12 PM

timtonymanu

11-26-2012, 05:13 PM

To be fair, this thread was started around the time Splitter looked like a legit big and before Duncan's rejuvenation.

This season:

Great -
1. Duncan
2. Parker

Above Average -
3. Leonard
4. Jackson

Average -
5. Green
6. Manu
7. Diaw
8. Neal

Below Average -
9. Splitter
10. Blair

Bad -
11. Patty
12. Bonner

therealtruth

11-26-2012, 08:14 PM

Splitter is not above average. He just looks the part of someone who is and compared to the Bonner's and Blair's of the world, he may seem like it, but he's just not.

When Splitter is locked in and uses his length to contest shots he's pretty good.

Kidd K

11-26-2012, 08:50 PM

The fuck? Is this "1: Splitter" shit some kind of joke? Doens't belong anywhere near the Duncan. At no point in the season has he looked better than Duncan. Even during the one game he looked good on defense, Duncan already put in at least a handful of games of good/great defense.

Great defenders:
Duncan

Good defenders:
Leonard

Above average:
Jackson
Parker
Splitter (when angry)
Ginobili
Diaw (when against a shorter, slower type player)

Average:
Green (potential to be above average. He's close, but needs to perform better against elite level players)
Diaw (against anyone quick or especially big)
Splitter (plays soft D' most of the time. He's 7', why does he try to take charges from little guards instead of contest?)
Blair (his rebounding brings him up to average imo, he stopped gambling for steals as much too and it's helped.)

Below average:
Mills (has potential though. I like his quickness a lot.)
De Colo
Bonner

Terrible:
Neal

Neal is always getting left on screens, getting faked out of his shoes, and frequently leaving his man open. He's our worst defender in a lot of ways imo. No one else gets beaten by their assignment on the Spurs more than Neal does. Yes, including Bonner. He was our worst defender last year too.