How good was Larry Bird?

[angelbelow]

We all know about his pure shooting ability, unmatched effort, elite athleticism and dashing good looks but I didn't know he was the great passer of all time too.

EhnRtgBGMl4

4mF9xdLyJGA

[midnightpulp]

http://oi40.tinypic.com/2ihw1g8.jpg

Dominates the GOAT in every category except Kobefan's favorite one.

[DMC]

Not a lot of dunking, people actually practiced passing back then. These days, passing is a last resort when you are triple teamed with 3 seconds on the shot clock.

[midnightpulp]

Peak Bird was also the best player of his generation. 3 straight MVPs. But Magic eventually overtook him when Bird's back started giving him problems.

[pass1st]

http://oi40.tinypic.com/2ihw1g8.jpg

Dominates the GOAT in every category except Kobefan's favorite one.

Is there a stat adjusted without his Washington years? Those don't really count tbh, just Jordan being a dumbass.

[pass1st]

Is there a stat adjusted without his Washington years? Those don't really count tbh, just Jordan being a dumbass.

nvm misread statline, Bird was a better leader tbh

[midnightpulp]

Is there a stat adjusted without his Washington years? Those don't really count tbh, just Jordan being a dumbass.

Washington years aren't figured in. These stats are for the head2head games they played against each other.

[timvp]

Tbh Larry Bird is the most overrated shooter in basketball history but other than that he was pretty damn good.

[Killakobe81]

Peak Bird was also the best player of his generation. 3 straight MVPs. But Magic eventually overtook him when Bird's back started giving him problems.

I agree with this, but dominate the GOAT? Let's not get crazy ...

[midnightpulp]

Tbh Larry Bird is the most overrated shooter in basketball history but other than that he was pretty damn good.

It's kind of ironic that people think of Bird as primarily a jump shooter (like Dirk, etc) when he actually did most of his damage from posting up.

[Giuseppe]

He was hot shit until Magic whipped his ass in Boston, then two years later took him out to the coast and ended it. After that Media had no further use for Bird.

And he was a terrible racist, but, he was grandfathered in on it, so it was okay.

[timvp]

It's kind of ironic that people think of Bird as primarily a jump shooter (like Dirk, etc) when he actually did most of his damage from posting up.

True he barely shot threes, especially by today's standards.

[midnightpulp]

I agree with this, but dominate the GOAT? Let's not get crazy ...

Bird did in fact usually get the better of Jordan when they played head to head. Not only in team wins (which is expected since the 80s Celtics were far better than the 80s Bulls) but also statistically.

Dominate is too strong of word, but I'd say Bird outplayed him for the most part. Remember, Jordan was still green in the 80s and "hadn't figured it out" yet.

[baseline bum]

It's kind of ironic that people think of Bird as primarily a jump shooter (like Dirk, etc) when he actually did most of his damage from posting up.

Bird was a jack of all trades (offensively) kind of like Garnett; you can't really pigeonhole him into any one category.

[Kori Ellis]

I hate Larry Bird.

[midnightpulp]

He was hot shit until Magic whipped his ass in Boston, then two years later took him out to the coast and ended it. After that Media had no further use for Bird.

And he was a terrible racist, but, he was grandfathered in on it, so it was okay.

So racist that he said "African Americans are the greatest athletes in the world."

[DeadlyDynasty]

I hate Larry Bird.

Why?

Unless you met him in real life, cause I heard he was a dick.

[baseline bum]

I hate Larry Bird.

Was he an ass to you? Bird never seemed like a friendly guy in person.

[Kori Ellis]

1. Because I read his book, and he said after basketball he was going to just go back to Indiana and "wait to die." (I hate that kind of attitude.)
2. It's a long story, but it involves him winking at me, and the Rick Carlisle-Kori Ellis incident.

[midnightpulp]

He was hot shit until Magic whipped his ass in Boston, then two years later took him out to the coast and ended it. After that Media had no further use for Bird.

And he was a terrible racist, but, he was grandfathered in on it, so it was okay.

If you guys didn't bend over in '86, it'd be notched 2-a-piece between the two greats. That was pussy letting the Rockets whip you like that.

[DeadlyDynasty]

1. Because I read his book, and he said after basketball he was going to just go back to Indiana and "wait to die." (I hate that kind of attitude.)
2. It's a long story, but it involves him winking at me, and the Rick Carlisle-Kori Ellis incident.

Go on...:lol

[jeebus]

2. It's a long story, but it involves him winking at me, and the Rick Carlisle-Kori Ellis incident.

:corn: Do tell.

[Leetonidas]

1. Because I read his book, and he said after basketball he was going to just go back to Indiana and "wait to die." (I hate that kind of attitude.)
2. It's a long story, but it involves him winking at me, and the Rick Carlisle-Kori Ellis incident.

Link? sounds enthralling :wow

[VBM]

2. It's a long story, but it involves him winking at me, and the Rick Carlisle-Kori Ellis incident.

:corn:

[VBM]

:corn: Do tell.

damn you :lol

[Killakobe81]

Bird did in fact usually get the better of Jordan when they played head to head. Not only in team wins (which is expected since the 80s Celtics were far better than the 80s Bulls) but also statistically.

Dominate is too strong of word, but I'd say Bird outplayed him for the most part. Remember, Jordan was still green in the 80s and "hadn't figured it out" yet.

Oh yeah, even the 63 point game MJ lost to Bird and Celts ...but it did bring Bird to say ... "i believe God was disguised as Mike Jordan today" ...

I'm not even a big MJ but only stat lovers could watch them two play even back then, and conclude Bird was better. Maybe Bird was smarter, wiser but MJ was already better he just needed help, every great player does ...

[midnightpulp]

Oh yeah, even the 63 point game MJ lost to Bird and Celts ...but it did bring Bird to say ... "i believe God was disguised as Mike Jordan today" ...

I'm not even a big MJ but only stat lovers could watch them two play even back then, and conclude Bird was better. Maybe Bird was smarter, wiser but MJ was already better he just needed help, every great player does ...

Mid-80s Bird was a better basketball player than mid-80s Jordan, and it's primarily due to him being "smarter" and "wiser."

[lefty]

True he barely shot threes, especially by today's standards.

He could have shot more 3's if he wanted to

Bird recently said that he preferred the midrange game and mix it up in the paint

He thinks that today a lot of players fall in love with the 3.


And to be fair, there was no zone D in the NBA back then

[Kori Ellis]

I wrote an article once (in 2004) bashing Carlisle about campaigning (by handing out flyers to us in the media) to get Ron Artest the DPOY award. It even had stuff broken down by stops by possession, etc. It was B.S. I even said that Pop had said it was B.S. So then Rick Carlisle called in the local radio station here in S.A. defending himself. And he called me "That girl with the microphone by her radio." Then I called after he was off the air, and responded. Then everyone at SpursTalk laughed.

Then... several months later. timvp and I were at summer league. And Carlisle and Bird were there scouting, and they were sitting like 10 feet from us, talking about me (it was obvious). So when I walked by, Bird laughed and winked at me.

[Killakobe81]

Mid-80s Bird was a better basketball player than mid-80s Jordan, and it's primarily due to him being "smarter" and "wiser."

Bird was a boss back then and MJ was green ...
But it's just like Those that argue Wade & Kobe over Lebron. they are wiser more skilled but Lebron is just so far ahead of those two physically when he does it will be over ...

[baseline bum]

Mid-80s Bird was a better basketball player than mid-80s Jordan, and it's primarily due to him being "smarter" and "wiser."

And him having one of the greatest supporting casts in NBA history.

[baseline bum]

I can understand why Bird was such an angry person after his dad shot himself. Still, he didn't turn out to be much better, abandoning his kid.

[Fabbs]

So when I walked by, Bird laughed and winked at me.
Was it painful?

[pass1st]

And him having one of the greatest supporting casts in NBA history.

Bird did make people around him better, though.

[Kori Ellis]

... Still, he didn't turn out to be much better, abandoning his kid.

Yeah, add that to my list why I don't like him.

Great player, though.

[lefty]

Bird did make people around him better, though.

Yes

When Bird had that big impact on the Celtics in his rookie season, he didnt have Parrish, McHale, DJ and Ainge yet

When Bird retired, the Celtics's record the next season significantly dropped

[baseline bum]

Bird did make people around him better, though.

True, but give Jordan a cast of McHale, Parish, D. Johnson, Ainge, Walton, and Wedman and you might as well cancel Christmas for the rest of the league from 86-91.

[pass1st]

True, but give Jordan a cast of McHale, Parish, D. Johnson, Ainge, Walton, and Wedman and you might as well cancel Christmas for the rest of the league from 86-91.

Jordan has a pretty stacked cast during the 3peats, Pippen + great role players like Kerr.

[LnGrrrR]

http://oi40.tinypic.com/2ihw1g8.jpg

Dominates the GOAT in every category except Kobefan's favorite one.

Attempts?

[angelbelow]

True he barely shot threes, especially by today's standards.

Its probably because they always use/show the 3pt contest video where he starts celebrating before the last shot even goes in when talking about Bird's career.

[Killakobe81]

Attempts?

:lol See now THAT is a good jab at Kobe ... you noobs take notes.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

Its probably because they always use/show the 3pt contest video where he starts celebrating before the last shot even goes in when talking about Bird's career.

Bird's prime was before my time as a fan so most of my opinion of his game was formed by the classic NES game Jordan vs. Bird. In addition to the one on one game the game included a slam dunk competition (where you played as Jordan) and a three point shootout (which was played as Bird). I probably should have known better than to trust an information source that got me sent to a child psychologist for stomping all those turtles.

[dunkman]

Bird, Magic and MJ are all same level of players, neither was better than the other. Magic was the most versatile, but he didn't play defense. MJ was the best scorer and defensive player, but he didn't pass remarkably well. Bird was almost as complete as Magic, the best rebounder by far of the group, played good defense too, but he wasn't that athletic (he could dunk, though).

They are the best PG, SG and SF to play the game.

[lefty]

bird, magic and mj are all same level of players, neither was better than the other. Magic was the most versatile, but he didn't play defense. Mj was the best scorer and defensive player, but he didn't pass remarkably well. Bird was almost as complete as magic, the best rebounder by far of the group, played good defense too, but he wasn't that athletic (he could dunk, though).

They are the best pg, sg and sf to play the game.
/thread#

[Rummpd]

Larry Bird was once asked if Michael Jordan was the greatest player he ever saw or knew and he said simply "one of two" refusing to name the other one. Bird may not have been the GOAT but he surely is in the top most tier of all time greats where-ever one draws the line.

[stretch]

Bird, Magic and MJ are all same level of players, neither was better than the other. Magic was the most versatile, but he didn't play defense. MJ was the best scorer and defensive player, but he didn't pass remarkably well. Bird was almost as complete as Magic, the best rebounder by far of the group, played good defense too, but he wasn't that athletic (he could dunk, though).

They are the best PG, SG and SF to play the game.

I'm not sure this is correct. I recall MJ being a pretty skilled passer. The frequency with which he passed, and his lack of trust in his teammates is what was generally questioned, as opposed to his actual passing ability. IIRC, there was a period where the Bulls started him at PG for a stretch of games and he had a triple-double in every one of them. Don Nelson publicly questioned why the Bulls hadn't done it sooner.

MJ was the best all-around player of the three, no doubt about it. He had by far, the least weaknesses of the three.

IMO, the rankings for those three...

1. MJ
2. Bird

3. Magic

[midnightpulp]

That first video should put to rest the Dirk vs Bird debate. I always knew Bird was a great passer, but he was relentless going after those loose balls.

There was a debate?

I'm a Dirk fan, top 10 player of all time (bumped Kirby off the 10 spot with his amazing run last year) but he's not on Bird's level.

[Killakobe81]

I'm not sure this is correct. I recall MJ being a pretty skilled passer. The frequency with which he passed, and his lack of trust in his teammates is what was generally questioned, as opposed to his actual passing ability. IIRC, there was a period where the Bulls started him at PG for a stretch of games and he had a triple-double in every one of them. Don Nelson publicly questioned why the Bulls hadn't done it sooner.

MJ was the best all-around player of the three, no doubt about it. He had by far, the least weaknesses of the three.

IMO, the rankings for those three...

1. MJ
2. Bird

3. Magic

any list that is outside of Boston that looks like this is crap. Magic won 3 out of 4 head to head college and pros. Sure Bird had some great numbers and was an amazing player but Magic was better. PERIOD. only players since 1980's that can be argued greater realistaically are MJ and Kareem.

[midnightpulp]

Slow your role, son. Magic owned Bird in college and in the pros. No other way of seeing it.

Lol stacked Michigan State team against Bird and bunch of no names. Head-to-head, they typically played each other to a draw. As for careers, Bird had a higher peak, but Magic had a more consistent career across the board.

And the head-to-head would be 2 a piece if you guys managed to make it to the Finals in '86.

[Killakobe81]

Larry Bird was once asked if Michael Jordan was the greatest player he ever saw or knew and he said simply "one of two" refusing to name the other one. Bird may not have been the GOAT but he surely is in the top most tier of all time greats where-ever one draws the line.

This i agree with ...

[midnightpulp]

Bird thought Magic was the best.

As did Magic:

"Michael Jordan is the best player ever in the air, Larry is the best ever on the floor."

- Magic Johnson

[dunkman]

I'm not sure this is correct. I recall MJ being a pretty skilled passer. The frequency with which he passed, and his lack of trust in his teammates is what was generally questioned, as opposed to his actual passing ability. IIRC, there was a period where the Bulls started him at PG for a stretch of games and he had a triple-double in every one of them. Don Nelson publicly questioned why the Bulls hadn't done it sooner.

MJ was the best all-around player of the three, no doubt about it. He had by far, the least weaknesses of the three.

IMO, the rankings for those three...

1. MJ
2. Bird

3. Magic

Today "making everyone better" doesn't mean that much. Here goes a video showing how Bird did that:

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=EhnRtgBGMl4

Magic could pass even little better, but MJ didn't have nowhere near that kind of vision.

[Rummpd]

Magic basically gifted Bird the only one he did get. Every era has a stand out player.

Mikan
Russell
Kareem
Maqic
MJ
Kobe...

Kobe for all his true greatness is very argueable as holding that period past Jordan for any great length:


From 1998-2007 it was either Shaq [who from 2000-2002 definetely gets it IMO] or Duncan who combined led teams to mulitiple championships and finals MVPs and were by definition the dominant players and forces on the Lakers or Spurs and in the league. Kobe was not considered the dominant player during that period and during 3/5 of this titles. Then while on a very deep team during the last half decade he has been outplayed in various years by both Wade and James and Kobe without Shaq or Gasol/Odom/Bynum simply did not prove he could carry a without abundant talent around him, i.e., a stacked team far.

If Kobe was ever truly the greatest player in the NBA beyond any 1-2 year period - his reign was remarkably short.
SI rightfully called Duncan the player of the decade and Duncan can make a much stronger case as the dominant force on 4 titles than Kobe. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/magazine/specials/2000s/12/03/nba.highlights.lowlights/index.html

PLAYER OF THE DECADE: Tim Duncan, San Antonio Spurs
The greatest power forward in NBA history, Duncan was the reason San Antonio became the only team to make the playoffs every year of the decade. He was the most valuable team player of his era, an active defender who chased pick-and-rolls out to the three-point line and yet hustled back to protect the rim and control the boards. Offensively, the Spurs played through him as a passer in the post, and his dependable mid-range jumper off the backboard will be part of his highlight reel when he checks into Springfield.



Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/magazine/specials/2000s/12/03/nba.highlights.lowlights/index.html#ixzz1kPKRC1LN
Magic, whose dominant game in the finals playing center proved he could do it all - is hard to evaluate as his career ended tragically early due to his illness but a much better case can be made for him but most historians would say he co-shared the period before MJ with Bird as they traded titles and MVPs.

[z0sa]

He was the best white boy ever

[z0sa]

He is the player of his era... hands down.

That would clearly be Tim Duncan followed closely by Shaq. Nice try though.

[lefty]

Bird thought Magic was the best.
And Magic thought Bird was the best

Bird, Magic, MJ just give props to each other

[stretch]

That would clearly be Tim Duncan followed closely by Shaq. Nice try though.

As much as I like Timmy, I think Kobe will be remembered by most people as the player of the 2000s.

[lefty]

As much as I like Timmy, I think Kobe will be remembered by most people as the player of the 2000s.
Yup

[Deuce Bigalow]

That would clearly be Tim Duncan followed closely by Shaq. Nice try though.

Horry: "Hakeem Olajuwon and Bryant are the best players he has ever played with."

[stretch]

Horry: "Hakeem Olajuwon and Bryant are the best players he has ever played with."

:rollin

[dunkman]

As much as I like Timmy, I think Kobe will be remembered by most people as the player of the 2000s.

Great player, but his early career got eclipsed by Duncan and Shaq, he wasted some years trying to make playoffs and exiting in first round, when the Lakers finally got by far most NBA talent in 08, his game was eclipsed by better players like Dirk and LeBron. He has a long career, but was never dominant.

I can't understand how someone can honestly say the 2000's were his era.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Great player, but his early career got eclipsed by Duncan and Shaq, he wasted some years trying to make playoffs and exiting in first round, when the Lakers finally got by far most NBA talent in 08, his game was eclipsed by better players like Dirk and LeBron. He has a long career, but was never dominant.

I can't understand how someone can honestly say the 2000's were his era.
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b284/cool1337/2mq1cmg.gif

You're a fucking dumbass

[z0sa]

As much as I like Timmy, I think Kobe will be remembered by most people as the player of the 2000s.

the 2000's isn't the only decade in this era. Judging total careers from this 'era', ie post Jordan, it's Duncan, then Shaq (with arguments going either way for these two), then Kobe, and it's not much of a debate past the first two.

Kobe will end up higher on the all-time list than Timmy, and maybe Shaq, but that's solely because of his scoring. When it comes to the best overall players of the Post Jordan era, you have to give the props where they are due.

No one will ever forget 05-07, no matter how hard Kobefan wants them to.

[dunkman]

Horry: "Hakeem Olajuwon and Bryant are the best players he has ever played with."

He would have only 2 rings and no one would care about he has to say, not 7, if his statements were to make some sense. I guess he wants a job in the Lakers organization.

To put it simple, the threepeat Lakers run their offense trough Shaq. And Duncan while injured and then past his prime, was still the Spurs best player in 05 and 07. BTW, Horry shot horribly against the Lakers in 04.

[z0sa]

Horry: "Hakeem Olajuwon and Bryant are the best players he has ever played with."

Cool story, bro

[z0sa]

"If you are talking about guards, I would say he has got to be in the top 10.”

- MJ referencing Kobe :lol

[Deuce Bigalow]

He would have only 2 rings and no one would care about he has to say, not 7, if his statements were to make some sense. I guess he wants a job in the Lakers organization.

To put it simple, the threepeat Lakers run their offense trough Shaq. And Duncan while injured and then past his prime, was still the Spurs best player in 05 and 07. BTW, Horry shot horribly against the Lakers in 04.

Lakers offense ran through Magic, he had the ball and made the plays, So Kareem's rings don't count?

[Deuce Bigalow]

"If you are talking about guards, I would say he has got to be in the top 10.”

- MJ referencing Kobe :lol

"Kobe's the only one to have done the work to be compared to me"

[z0sa]

Lakers offense ran through Magic, he had the ball and made the plays, So Kareem's rings don't count?

Kareem's rings definitely count, but if anyone were silly enough to say that he and Magic were equals, even during Magic's rookie season, they'd be laughed off the court. Magic was the man and Kareem was the sidekick, regardless of how much he scored or how they viewed each other.

Bird vs Magic all those years ...

[Deuce Bigalow]

Kareem's rings definitely count, but if anyone were silly enough to say that he and Magic were equals, even during Magic's rookie season, they'd be laughed off the court. Magic was the man and Kareem was the sidekick, regardless of how much he scored or how they viewed each other.

Bird vs Magic, not Bird vs Kareem
Magic and Kareem are both > Kobe and Duncan
Yet, ALL of their rings were won with each other

[z0sa]

"Kobe's the only one to have done the work to be compared to me"

MJ never said that. He may have said something like it, we don't know for sure.

[Magic's T-Cells]

any list that is outside of Boston that looks like this is crap. Magic won 3 out of 4 head to head college and pros. Sure Bird had some great numbers and was an amazing player but Magic was better. PERIOD. only players since 1980's that can be argued greater realistaically are MJ and Kareem.

Magic>Bird.

These are things we know.

[z0sa]

That really stings them in the crapper. They thought they had Horry's vote.

I would expect Horry to give his former players, particularly Hakeem, some props. And scoring wise, Kobe probably is the best player Horry ever played with.

[FkLA]

The 2000s will probably be remembered as Kobes era by ESPN and the NBA for business reasons. The Lakers and Kobe have much more appeal than the Spurs and Duncan. Casual fans will go with that, but I think most unbiased knowledgeable people will realize it was Duncans decade.

[stretch]

The 2000s will probably be remembered as Kobes era by ESPN and the NBA for business reasons. The Lakers and Kobe have much more appeal than the Spurs and Duncan. Casual fans will go with that, but I think most unbiased knowledgeable people will realize it was Duncans decade.

Please explain, why Duncan deserves to be recognized as the player of the decade over Kobe.

[Deuce Bigalow]

The 2000s will probably be remembered as Kobes era by ESPN and the NBA for business reasons. The Lakers and Kobe have much more appeal than the Spurs and Duncan. Casual fans will go with that, but I think most unbiased knowledgeable people will realize it was Duncans decade.

All 3 have a case, it will be remembered as Kobe, Shaq, and Duncan's eras, 3 top 10 players of alltime.

[z0sa]

Please explain, why Duncan deserves to be recognized as the player of the decade over Kobe.

There's definitely an argument to be made. SI didn't give Timmy POTD for shits and giggles. Acting like there isn't is classic stretch 'trolling'.

[Deuce Bigalow]

I would expect Horry to give his former players, particularly Hakeem, some props. And scoring wise, Kobe probably is the best player Horry ever played with.

I thought Kobe's an in-efficient chucker? :lol

[DeadlyDynasty]

The 2000s will probably be remembered as Kobes era by ESPN and the NBA for business reasons. The Lakers and Kobe have much more appeal than the Spurs and Duncan. Casual fans will go with that, but I think most unbiased knowledgeable people will realize it was Duncans decade.

Kobe won 4 rings to Duncan's 3 from 2000-2009. He also had 2 more finals appearances.

Kobe was 4-1 against Duncan in the playoffs in that decade too.

Throw in historical performances like 81, 62, and countless buzzer beaters and I'd say you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

[stretch]

No one will ever forget 05-07, no matter how hard Kobefan wants them to.

the fact that Kobe even found a way to get the Lakers into the playoffs (and nearly upset one of the top teams) with garbage like Smush Parker, Kwame Brown, and Luke Walton in the starting lineup is something to be heavily considered during those 3 awful years. At no point in his career, has Duncan ever had anywhere remotely as bad of a team as Kobe had in that span.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Shaq ain't in that top 10. Duncan's great fall-off has me wondering.

Yes he is, EASILY, not even gonna explain

[z0sa]

the fact that Kobe even found a way to get the Lakers into the playoffs (and nearly upset one of the top teams) with garbage like Smush Parker, Kwame Brown, and Luke Walton in the starting lineup is something to be heavily considered during those 3 awful years. At no point in his career, has Duncan ever had anywhere remotely as bad of a team as Kobe had in that span.

2003 says hello. That was a rebuilding year with no other even fringe all-stars, including DRob. It wasn't 05-07 bad, but considering the inexperience and what the pundits were saying, they're definitely comparable from a Tim vs Kobe standpoint. Seeing what Kobe did without an all-star and seeing what Tim did without one, I think it's more than fair to compare the two teams.

Besides, Tim wouldn't have missed the playoffs, or quit in Game 7 tbh

[Deuce Bigalow]

2003 says hello. That was a rebuilding year with no other even fringe all-stars, including DRob. It wasn't 05-07 bad, but considering the inexperience and what the pundits were saying, they're definitely comparable from a Tim vs Kobe standpoint. Seeing what Kobe did without an all-star and seeing what Tim did without one, I think it's more than fair to compare the two teams.

ARE
YOU
FUCKING
KIDDING
ME

:lmao

[z0sa]

Shaq ain't in that top 10.

:lmao

[stretch]

2003 says hello. That was a rebuilding year with no other even fringe all-stars, including DRob. It wasn't 05-07 bad, but considering the inexperience and what the pundits were saying, they're definitely comparable from a Tim vs Kobe standpoint. Seeing what Kobe did without an all-star and seeing what Tim did without one, I think it's more than fair to compare the two teams.

Besides, Tim wouldn't have missed the playoffs, or quit in Game 7 tbh

:rollin

I agree they were inexperienced, but they were a very well rounded, complete team that year. They had plenty of talent in Jackson, Manu, Parker, and Duncan. Good role players to fill needs/depth with Robinson, Rose, Bowen, and Claxton.

You must be retarded or something.

[z0sa]

ARE
YOU
FUCKING
KIDDING
ME

:lmao

You had Odom, you had Brown who was decent on defense, and couldn't even make the playoffs.

hopefully stretch has something better. I argued this exact point with you before to the same total victory. No matter what Parker and Manu and SJax became in the future, the two former were near-rookies with zero NBA playoff experience and SJax was a loose gun playing for an injured Smith and a contract.

[Deuce Bigalow]

You had Odom, you had Brown who was decent on defense, and couldn't even make the playoffs.

hopefully stretch has something better. I argued this exact point with you before to the same total victory. No matter what Parker and Manu and SJax became in the future, the two former were near-rookies with zero NBA playoff experience and SJax was a loose gun playing for an injured Smith and a contract.
They made the Playoffs in 06 and 07 when they were healthy
Kobe and Odom were injured in 05

btw Manu was not your "typical" rookie

[z0sa]

:rollin

I agree they were inexperienced, but they were a very well rounded, complete team that year. They had plenty of talent in Jackson, Manu, Parker, and Duncan. Good role players to fill needs/depth with Robinson, Rose, Bowen, and Claxton.

You must be retarded or something.

I admitted the 03 Spurs were a better team clearly. However, we were comparing Tim vs Kobe, remember?

Retarded is posting someone else is retarded because they disagree with you.

Retarded is also acting like there's no argument for Tim being POTD :rollin

[FkLA]

Kobe won 4 rings to Duncan's 3 from 2000-2009. He also had 2 more finals appearances.

Kobe was 4-1 against Duncan in the playoffs in that decade too.

Throw in historical performances like 81, 62, and countless buzzer beaters and I'd say you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

We talking about Player of the Decade not Team of the Decade. Your argument is basically 4>3.


the fact that Kobe even found a way to get the Lakers into the playoffs (and nearly upset one of the top teams) with garbage like Smush Parker, Kwame Brown, and Luke Walton in the starting lineup is something to be heavily considered during those 3 awful years. At no point in his career, has Duncan ever had anywhere remotely as bad of a team as Kobe had in that span.

He had Lamar. He had Caron for a year. Healthy Baby Drew for a year or two. Vlad Rad when he was decent. George carried over from the 3peat years. Atkins was decent. People are quick to point out Smush or Kwame but conveniently leave out other solid players. Not saying he shouldve won a title with these people but he really did no better than lets say what Tmac/Vince did with their horrible teammates in Orlando/Toronto.

[z0sa]

They made the Playoffs in 06 and 07 when they were healthy
Kobe and Odom were injured in 05

btw Manu was not your "typical" rookie

oh yeah, and don't forget caron in his prime. Looking at FKLA's post and the roster now, that was by no means a sure-fire lottery team with Kobe playing at a high level. Acting like it was is obfuscation to the lowest degree.

BTW check Manu's numbers, nothing spectacular - his best was yet to come. Parker was the one who really stepped it up in 03.

[Deuce Bigalow]

oh yeah, and don't forget caron in his prime. BTW check Manu's numbers, nothing spectacular. Parker was the one who really stepped it up in 03

Kobe was injured and so was Odom
check Kobe's numbers, that was not a healthy Kobe
look at his numbers from 05 to 06 and 07

[z0sa]

Kobe was injured

aren't you one of the ones who constantly bitch about Spurfan bringing up Manu's injuries playing a role in the Spurs loss in 08?

[dunkman]

Kobe won 4 rings to Duncan's 3 from 2000-2009. He also had 2 more finals appearances.

Kobe was 4-1 against Duncan in the playoffs in that decade too.

Throw in historical performances like 81, 62, and countless buzzer beaters and I'd say you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

The '02 game 6 of the WCF's was rigged. That's a fact. Kobe won 3 titles, not 4.

And he was the Lakers best player in only one of those runs. He never did anything great in the finals, unlike Duncan.

[Deuce Bigalow]

The '02 game 6 of the WCF's was rigged. That's a fact. Kobe won 3 titles, not 4.

And he was the Lakers best player in only one of those runs. He never did anything great in the finals, unlike Duncan.

:rollin

btw Kobes best Finals ('09) has a 28.3 PER, higher than any of Magic's, Bird's, Kareem's, and Hakeem's Finals performances

[Deuce Bigalow]

aren't you one of the ones who constantly bitch about Spurfan bringing up Manu's injuries playing a role in the Spurs loss in 08?

Like they were going to win anyways :lol

[DeadlyDynasty]

The '02 game 6 of the WCF's was rigged. That's a fact. Kobe won 3 titles, not 4.

:lol

The '07 game 3 of the WCSF's was rigged. That's a fact. Tim won 2 titles, not 3.





You can't win this.

[stretch]

I admitted the 03 Spurs were a better team clearly. However, we were comparing Tim vs Kobe, remember?

Retarded is posting someone else is retarded because they disagree with you.

Retarded is also acting like there's no argument for Tim being POTD :rollin

Your only valid comparison between the 02-03 Spurs and the 05-06 Lakers is that there were no all-stars aside from Tim and Kobe. In terms of the quality of the players on the roster, there is no comparison whatsoever. The 02-03 Spurs were full of quality players who fit team needs, and had talent. The 05-06 Lakers had some good role players, but no one capable of stepping up consistently to take pressure off Kobe. At least Jackson, Manu, and Parker all stepped up at different points to help Timmy.

If that is the only reason you have for Timmy being > than Kobe, than Dirk must be > Kobe as well, considering the Mavs won the championship without another all-star.

Pretty retarded, tbqmfh.

[stretch]

BTW check Manu's numbers, nothing spectacular - his best was yet to come. Parker was the one who really stepped it up in 03.

Manu's full season numbers that year weren't spectacular, but he didn't get much PT early in the season. In fact, I think he was injured part of it too. But come February and March, he really picked it up to another level. I remember that it around when Barkley fell in love with the guy and started doing his "GINOOOOBILIIIIIIIIIII!" thing during his TNT broadcasts.

The energy that Ginobili brought to the floor with him when going into games was very infectious for the Spurs. Don't underestimate his production and contributions to that title team, by looking at his season numbers. He was a BIG part of that squad.

[stretch]

Either way, I'm still curious as to what makes Duncan > Kobe in terms of player of the decade talks. Aside from incredibly poor comparisons of the 02-03 Spurs to the 05-06 Lakers supporting casts, that is. :lol

[FkLA]

:rollin

btw Kobes best Finals ('09) has a 28.3 PER, higher than any of Magic's, Bird's, Kareem's, and Hakeem's Finals performances

37-97 .360% in game 7's
38-108 .352% in title winning games
41% in 37 finals games
66-163 .400% to win finals mvp....lowest fg% ever for a finals mvp (dirk this yr is #2 at 41% i believe)

:lmao

[DeadlyDynasty]

Here's the kicker though: They were both great players, but Kobe was simply a joy to watch. You can watch Kobe go 6/24 from the field and have it be infinitely more exciting than watching Duncan go 10/17 with a bunch of vanilla post buckets and some 18-ft bankshots.

Both great players, both won multiple rings and individual awards, but only one was fun to watch on a nightly basis.

[dunkman]

:lol

The '07 game 3 of the WCSF's was rigged. That's a fact. Tim won 2 titles, not 3.





You can't win this.

If you mean when Horry hip-checked Nash, and made Amare and Diew jump to the court from the bench, the refs only applied the rules on them and they got suspended the following game. BTW, Horry got suspended two games.


On the other hand, one of the '02 WCF refs said he received the order to make the Kings lose game 6, so there are no any doubts. Keep in mind even Kobe knew something, no way he would hit Bibby so blatantly angered after some clutch shots.

[z0sa]

Your only valid comparison between the 02-03 Spurs and the 05-06 Lakers is that there were no all-stars aside from Tim and Kobe. In terms of the quality of the players on the roster, there is no comparison whatsoever. The 02-03 Spurs were full of quality players who fit team needs, and had talent. The 05-06 Lakers had some good role players, but no one capable of stepping up consistently to take pressure off Kobe. At least Jackson, Manu, and Parker all stepped up at different points to help Timmy.

If that is the only reason you have for Timmy being > than Kobe, than Dirk must be > Kobe as well, considering the Mavs won the championship without another all-star.

Pretty retarded, tbqmfh.

Caron Butler in his prime. Lamar Odom in his prime and coming off a good playoff run with Miami. Kwame Brown, a strong defensive presence at the time (advanced stats help his cause, believe it or not). Smush WAS playing the best ball of his career, even if in the end he was just a scrub. Vladi Radmanovic and Devin george and Chucky Atkins, three strong perimeter role players.

All these guys are scrubs at the time? :rollin You sound like your stuck in Kobe's jock. Need help outta there?

You are proving yourself pretty retarded and/or ignorant and/or a Spurs hater. Maybe All 3 tbqmfh.

[DeadlyDynasty]

If you mean when Horry hip-checked Nash, and made Amare and Diew jump to the court from the bench, the refs only applied the rules on them and they got suspended the fowing game. BTW, Horry got suspended two games.

Nope, you're lost right now and have selective amnesia, like most Spurfans. You're referring to Game 4. I'm referring to Game 3, refereed by none other than Tim Donaghy.

Convenient how you forget that game. http://www.aolnews.com/2007/07/22/the-spurs-should-give-tim-donaghy-a-championship-ring/

[z0sa]

Either way, I'm still curious as to what makes Duncan > Kobe in terms of player of the decade talks. Aside from incredibly poor comparisons of the 02-03 Spurs to the 05-06 Lakers supporting casts, that is. :lol

Maybe you should read the Sports Illustrated article. And for sure you shouldn't argue strawmen.

[stretch]

Caron Butler in his prime. Lamar Odom in his prime and coming off a good playoff run with Miami. Kwame Brown, a strong defensive presence at the time (advanced stats help his cause, believe it or not). Smush WAS playing the best ball of his career, even if in the end he was just a scrub. Vladi Radmanovic and Devin george and Chucky Atkins, three strong perimeter role players.

All these guys are scrubs at the time? :rollin You sound like your stuck in Kobe's jock. Need help outta there?

You are proving yourself pretty retarded and/or ignorant and/or a Spurs hater. Maybe All 3 tbqmfh.

Butler was only there for one season, and in that season, the Lakers had just undergone some MAJOR changes (losing Shaq, a number of role players, and their head coach), had extended injuries to Kobe and Odom, and didn't have Kwame's "STRONG defense" as you call it, as he wasn't a Laker until the following season, in exchange for Butler. They didn't have Smush or Radmanovic either, and Deaven George was injured almost the entire season.

Do some research, moron.

[Deuce Bigalow]

37-97 .360% in game 7's
38-108 .352% in title winning games
41% in 37 finals games
66-163 .400% to win finals mvp....lowest fg% ever for a finals mvp (dirk this yr is #2 at 41% i believe)

:lmao
higher PER than those greats I just mentioned :lol

[z0sa]

Like they were going to win anyways :lol

:lmao just as long as you know the card now gets played both ways, and Kobe's non-season ending injury means little to nothing in terms of completely missing the playoffs by a decent margin.

[Deuce Bigalow]

btw how is 37/97 = 36%? lmao

[z0sa]

Butler was only there for one season, and in that season, the Lakers had just undergone some MAJOR changes (losing Shaq, a number of role players, and their head coach), had extended injuries to Kobe and Odom, and didn't have Kwame's "STRONG defense" as you call it, as he wasn't a Laker until the following season, in exchange for Butler. They didn't have Smush or Radmanovic either, and Deaven George was injured almost the entire season.

Do some research, moron.

We're comparing 05-07, not sticking to 05, retard. I'm still comparing Tim to Kobe; I know, I lost you a long time ago, back when you started 'trolling' with retard talk because you're a bitch like that.

[Deuce Bigalow]

We're comparing 05-07, not sticking to 05, retard. I'm still comparing Tim to Kobe; I know, I lost you a long time ago, back when you started 'trolling' with retard talk because you're a bitch like that.

:lol
the irony, you're the one with the retarded talk dumbass, stretch understands basketball unlike you

[stretch]

We're comparing 05-07, not sticking to 05, retard. I'm still comparing Tim to Kobe; I know, I lost you a long time ago, back when you started 'trolling' with retard talk because you're a bitch like that.

Actually, you were the one who compared the 02-03 Spurs team to the 05-06 Lakers team, and now you are deciding to claim that the better players from the 04-05 roster count as well, and suddenly have no clue what the hell you are talking about.

Scratch all that crap, lets start this conversation fresh. So what would you like to compare? I'm not trying to troll here at all. I want you to convince me as to why Duncan > Kobe this decade. If you bring some good, convincing points, I will concede. It's not a matter of me being a hater. If anything, people say I give Timmy more credit than he deserves, as I'm actually a big Tim Duncan fan.

So please, prove me wrong.

[z0sa]

:lol
the irony, you're the one with the retarded talk dumbass, stretch understands basketball unlike you

by retard talk, I meant him calling me a retard. english not your first language or have you simply too few brain cells to remember 20 replies back?

[lefty]

"If you are talking about guards, I would say he has got to be in the top 10.”

- MJ referencing Kobe :lol
MJ knows his shit



The GOAT shitting on the Lakers trolls

[Deuce Bigalow]

by retard talk, I meant him calling me a retard. english not your first language or have you simply too few brain cells to remember 20 replies back?

you are a retard

"03 spurs are close to the 05-07 lakers"
"kobe was never dominant"
:lol

[lefty]

you are a retarded

"03 spurs are close to the 05-07 lakers"
"kobe was never dominant"
:lol

lol Scottie Bryant

[z0sa]

I lost you right before the retard comment you made. This is what you said:


At no point in [Tim's] career, has Duncan ever had anywhere remotely as bad of a team as Kobe had in that span.

You said span. You did. We all know what you meant by span, 05-07.

I've been talking 05-07 with you this whole time. I listed players from the era and how they were strong. Additionally, I argued Tim would not have missed the playoffs or quit in game 7, not contrarily or as an addendum to our argument.

In your eagerness to troll and call me retarded, you didn't even realize what you posted.

You fail.

[DeadlyDynasty]

Btw, this thread is a microcosm of the NBA Forum...once again an unrelated thread like "How good was Larry Bird?" turns into a Kobe-Duncan shitshow.:lol

[z0sa]

you are a retard

"03 spurs are close to the 05-07 lakers"
"kobe was never dominant"
:lol

Never said either of those things. What I said was that the supporting cast of LA was actually not too terrible. It all links into my former argument >>

Tim = Shaq > Kobe in the post Jordan era.

ye who can't even read what you fuckin type, jesus...

[Deuce Bigalow]

I lost you right before the retard comment you made. This is what you said:



You said span. You did. We all know what you meant by span, 05-07.

I've been talking 05-07 with you this whole time. I listed players from the era and how they were strong. Additionally, I argued Tim would not have missed the playoffs or quit in game 7, not contrarily or as an addendum to our argument.

In your eagerness to troll and call me retarded, you didn't even realize what you posted.

You fail.
If Duncan was injured yes he would miss the playoffs too
and Duncan would not have quit in game 7, because he would lose in 4-5 games

[stretch]

Never said either of those things. What I said was that the supporting cast of LA was actually not too terrible. It all links into my former argument

It wasn't terrible if you combine all the talented players across those 3 years into one team (which is what you are doing).

But if you look season by season, the talent was terrible. It may arguably have been the highest in the 04-05 year where they missed the playoffs, but there are so many other factors such as injuries, lack of chemistry, major roster changes, etc... that completely derailed that season.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Never said either of those things. What I said was that the supporting cast of LA was actually not too terrible. It all links into my former argument >>

Tim = Shaq > Kobe in the post Jordan era.

ye who can't even read what you fuckin type, jesus...


Great player, but his early career got eclipsed by Duncan and Shaq, he wasted some years trying to make playoffs and exiting in first round, when the Lakers finally got by far most NBA talent in 08, his game was eclipsed by better players like Dirk and LeBron. He has a long career, but was never dominant.

I can't understand how someone can honestly say the 2000's were his era.
:lol

[z0sa]

If Duncan was injured yes he would miss the playoffs too

Injury excuses are lame:

Kobe played 65 games in 2003-04.

Kobe played 66 games in 2004-05.

Your argument simply doesn't hold water.

[dunkman]

Nope, you're lost right now and have selective amnesia, like most Spurfans. You're referring to Game 4. I'm referring to Game 3, refereed by none other than Tim Donaghy.

Convenient how you forget that game. http://www.aolnews.com/2007/07/22/the-spurs-should-give-tim-donaghy-a-championship-ring/

Could be, but where is the refs quote he received the order for the Spurs to win that game? That game didn't decided the series. And the refs were pro Mavs, against the Spurs in 06. There is just one more suspect game, like the g7 of the 00 WCF's when the Lakers "miraculously" eliminated the Blazers.

However, one ref said he received the order to make the Lakers win the g6 of the WCF in 02. That's a fact, there are no doubts. The Kings would have eliminated the Lakers in that game, so Kobe can't be accounted with the 02 title.

[z0sa]

:lol

does my name look gray to you?

[z0sa]

It wasn't terrible if you combine all the talented players across those 3 years into one team (which is what you are doing).

But if you look season by season, the talent was terrible. It may arguably have been the highest in the 04-05 year where they missed the playoffs, but there are so many other factors such as injuries, lack of chemistry, major roster changes, etc... that completely derailed that season.

Sounds like excuses for a 3 year lull Tim didn't have.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Injury excuses are lame:

Kobe played 65 games in 2003-04.

Kobe played 66 games in 2004-05.

Your argument simply doesn't hold water.

He played injured, more serious injury too

[z0sa]

He played injured, more serious injury too

:rolleyes what a surprise

[Deuce Bigalow]

Could be, but where is the refs quote he received the order for the Spurs to win that game? That game didn't decided the series. And the refs were pro Mavs, against the Spurs in 06. There is just one more suspect game, like the g7 of the 00 WCF's when the Lakers "miraculously" eliminated the Blazers.

However, one ref said he received the order to make the Lakers win the g6 of the WCF in 02. That's a fact, there are no doubts. The Kings would have eliminated the Lakers in that game, so Kobe can't be accounted with the 02 title.
There is a conspiracy to EXTEND the series to 7 games
Kings had 20 more freethrows than the Lakers in game 3 (35-15) the biggest discrepancy of the series
Kings also shot more total freethrows for the whole series than the Lakers

Did the refs rig Horry's gamewinning 3 in mid air to make it go in?
Did they rig the Kings freethrow shots to miss in game 7 at home?

[FkLA]

Here's the kicker though: They were both great players, but Kobe was simply a joy to watch. You can watch Kobe go 6/24 from the field and have it be infinitely more exciting than watching Duncan go 10/17 with a bunch of vanilla post buckets and some 18-ft bankshots.

Both great players, both won multiple rings and individual awards, but only one was fun to watch on a nightly basis.

4>3, funner=better, etc :tu


btw how is 37/97 = 36%? lmao

*38%, only slightly less terrible :lol

[Deuce Bigalow]

4>3, funner=better, etc :tu



*38%, only slightly less terrible :lol

Duncan in game 7, 2005 Finals: 10-27 (37.03%)

[FkLA]

Duncan in game 7, 2005 Finals: 10-27 (37.03%)

One game :lol

6-24 (25%) :lmao

[Deuce Bigalow]

One game :lol

6-24 (25%) :lmao

Kobe's a guard, Duncan is a C/PF :lol

[Leetonidas]

Duncan in game 7, 2005 Finals: 10-27 (37.03%)

Well, he was being guarded by the best post tandem in the league

[DeadlyDynasty]

4>3, funner=better, etc :tu

Glad you've finally accepted it since you haven't provided evidence to the contrary:tu


Not only is Kobe better in the 2000s, he's better alltime because he has staying power. Duncan's basically a wax sculpture now who can't do shit w/o 2-3 days rest in between.:lol

Getting D-bo'd by Marc Gasol and Fat-ass Z-Bo:lol

[DeadlyDynasty]

Could be, but where is the refs quote he received the order for the Spurs to win that game? That game didn't decided the series. And the refs were pro Mavs, against the Spurs in 06. There is just one more suspect game, like the g7 of the 00 WCF's when the Lakers "miraculously" eliminated the Blazers.

However, one ref said he received the order to make the Lakers win the g6 of the WCF in 02. That's a fact, there are no doubts. The Kings would have eliminated the Lakers in that game, so Kobe can't be accounted with the 02 title.

Here, give him a call and he'll answer any questions you might have:

800-308-9003

[FkLA]

Glad you've finally accepted it since you haven't provided evidence to the contrary:tu


Not only is Kobe better in the 2000s, he's better alltime because he has staying power. Duncan's basically a wax sculpture now who can't do shit w/o 2-3 days rest in between.:lol

Getting D-bo'd by Marc Gasol and Fat-ass Z-Bo:lol

Analyze the rings nlgga, dont just use simple '4>3' math logic.

Look at how Duncan got his; in small market San Antonio, undesirable FA destination, low payroll, team that had never won before him and likely wont win w/o him anytime soon. He was the Spurs system, the team depended on him anchoring defensively and drawing double teams in the post.

Look at how Kobe got his;in Los Angeles, most desirable FA destination, high payroll, team that has won before and will win after him. Robin, albeit a great one, for the three-peat.

[DeadlyDynasty]

Analyze the rings nlgga, dont just use simple '4>3' math logic.

Look at how Duncan got his; in small market San Antonio, undesirable FA destination, low payroll, team that had never won before him and likely wont win w/o him anytime soon. He was the Spurs system, the team depended on him anchoring defensively and drawing double teams in the post.

Look at how Kobe got his;in Los Angeles, most desirable FA destination, high payroll, team that has won before and will win after him. Robin, albeit a great one, for the three-peat.

Since it's incumbent upon me to be more diplomatic now instead of just calling you a fuckface, let's just agree to disagree. We both can argue till we're blue in the face, but I have a legit argument for Kobe and you think you have a legit argument for Tim.

Good day sir.

[stretch]

Sounds like excuses for a 3 year lull Tim didn't have.

Shitty reasoning.

What a surprise :rolleyes

[midnightpulp]

Your only valid comparison between the 02-03 Spurs and the 05-06 Lakers is that there were no all-stars aside from Tim and Kobe. In terms of the quality of the players on the roster, there is no comparison whatsoever. The 02-03 Spurs were full of quality players who fit team needs, and had talent. The 05-06 Lakers had some good role players, but no one capable of stepping up consistently to take pressure off Kobe. At least Jackson, Manu, and Parker all stepped up at different points to help Timmy.

If that is the only reason you have for Timmy being > than Kobe, than Dirk must be > Kobe as well, considering the Mavs won the championship without another all-star.

Pretty retarded, tbqmfh.

Not too far fetched a concept. Dirk is the most underrated player of all-time. Statistically more dominant than Kobe in the playoffs with one less title as the lead dog. Kobe's title runs always came accompanied with the best big (Shaq) or frontline (Gasol/Bynum/Odom) in the league, whereas Dirk had a combination of Shawn Bradley, Diop, and Dampier for the majority of his career.

[midnightpulp]

And lol at a Bird thread turning into yet another Duncan vs. Kobe debate.