Do We Need the Department of Education?

[Wild Cobra]

Most of you already know I am for getting rid of the Department of education. Found this of interest:

Do We Need the Department of Education? (http://www.hillsdale.edu/news/imprimis/archive/issue.asp?year=2012&month=01)

In PDF (http://www.hillsdale.edu/hctools/ImprimisTool/archives/2012_01_Imprimis.pdf)

First few paragraphs:

THE CASE FOR the Department of Education could rest on one or more of three legs: its constitutional appropriateness, the existence of serious problems in education that could be solved only at the federal level, and/or its track record since it came into being. Let us consider these in order.

(1) Is the Department of Education constitutional?

At the time the Constitution was written, education was not even considered a function of local government, let alone the federal government. But the shakiness of the Department of Education’s constitutionality goes beyond that. Article 1, Section 8 of the Constitution enumerates the things over which Congress has the power to legislate. Not only does the list not include education, there is no plausible rationale for squeezing education in under the commerce clause. I’m sure the Supreme Court found a rationale, but it cannot have been plausible.

On a more philosophical level, the framers of America’s limited government had a broad allegiance to what Catholics call the principle of subsidiarity. In the secular world, the principle of subsidiarity means that local government should do only those things that individuals cannot do for themselves, state government should do only those things that local governments cannot do, and the federal government should do only those things that the individual states cannot do. Education is something that individuals acting alone and cooperatively can do, let alone something local or state governments can do.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

There's no evidence that completely privatizing education has ever worked out well for a country, yet Republicans can't get enough of the idea :lol

[Wild Cobra]

But why should the federal government be micromanaging the states? According to the tenth amendment, this is for local or state governments.

[ElNono]

OP is an example of where the Dept was a complete failure. With examples like that, you could talk me into it.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

No amount of education can cure stupidity.

Howeva, if there was a department of contraception, the OP would be an example of that department failing.

[Wild Cobra]

No amount of education can cure stupidity.

Howeva, if there was a department of contraception, the OP would be an example of that department failing.
LOL...

... Just snipped everything I wrote here...

Wrong topic for that discussion.

[Stringer_Bell]

Seriously, the last fuckin thing I'm worried about is whether DOE is constitutional. It is a waste of money, but then again I've never been taught at a Public School and all 5 of my kids will go to private school...so good luck to ya'll dingleberries tryin' to make something of your kids out of what I pay in taxes for their shitty schools and mass-educated UT graduate teachers.

[CosmicCowboy]

Seriously, the last fuckin thing I'm worried about is whether DOE is constitutional. It is a waste of money, but then again I've never been taught at a Public School and all 5 of my kids will go to private school...so good luck to ya'll dingleberries tryin' to make something of your kids out of what I pay in taxes for their shitty schools and mass-educated UT graduate teachers.

Which is really a shame. I graduated in the early 70's and we still got a kick ass education from the public school system...but yeah, I sent my kids to private school through the 8th grade in the 90's-2000's. Crazy how it went to shit in 30 years...

[Wild Cobra]

Seriously, the last fuckin thing I'm worried about is whether DOE is constitutional. It is a waste of money, but then again I've never been taught at a Public School and all 5 of my kids will go to private school...so good luck to ya'll dingleberries tryin' to make something of your kids out of what I pay in taxes for their shitty schools and mass-educated UT graduate teachers.
Good job for the private schooling. I put mine in regular schools, but moved into one of the best school districts in the state. The Portland public schools stink. My kids went graduated out of the Centennial school district. The Portland.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

My middle school sucked horibbly but I was satisfied with my public high school education. If you find a public high school with an honors program chances are the honors program is just as good an education as any private school. I was just as prepared for college as my friends who went to private school.

[CosmicCowboy]

My middle school sucked horibbly but I was satisfied with my public high school education. If you find a public high school with an honors program chances are the honors program is just as good an education as any private school. I was just as prepared for college as my friends who went to private school.

This is true.

[vy65]

Is WC really so fucking stupid as to believe that education doesn't affect interstate commerce?

[CosmicCowboy]

Is WC really so fucking stupid as to believe that education doesn't affect interstate commerce?

Is VY65 really so stupid that he thinks the Federal Government can make kids want to learn when presented with the opportunity?

[ElNono]

Actually, the OP article is much more retarded than that. That's it's not part of the Constitution doesn't mean it's "unconstitutional". If that were the case, all laws would be unconstitutional as well. Not surprised this logical fallacy didn't set off the alarms of the OP though.

[mercos]

An argument could easily be made that the department of education is unconstitutional. The same argument could be made about 90% of the things the United States government has done since the document was ratified. Lawmakers have interpreted the law to fit their schemes since day 1. This has sometimes been good, and sometimes been bad.

The fallacy of those like Ron Paul who want a super strict following of the constitution is that it was written to govern in a different time. In the late 1700s people were largely self sufficient. Most were farmers. It is extremely naive to believe this country could function with the type of limited government Ron Paul wants.

[Wild Cobra]

The fallacy of those like Ron Paul who want a super strict following of the constitution is that it was written to govern in a different time. In the late 1700s people were largely self sufficient. Most were farmers. It is extremely naive to believe this country could function with the type of limited government Ron Paul wants.
I disagree. Now they didn't foresee things like modern communications, but the document still holds up well since their intent was a limited federal government.

What would be wrong with having 50 different state agencies, not beholden to anyone but their constituents? 50 experiments, with each watching each other and applying what works best at the lowest price...

States rights is the way to go. Too bad people want to put their faith in Uncle Sam.

Here's a simple question. Do you believe in the 10th amendment?

[ChumpDumper]

Yeah, if they want slavery they should just be allowed to experiment.

[mercos]

I disagree. Now they didn't foresee things like modern communications, but the document still holds up well since their intent was a limited federal government.

What would be wrong with having 50 different state agencies, not beholden to anyone but their constituents? 50 experiments, with each watching each other and applying what works best at the lowest price...

States rights is the way to go. Too bad people want to put their faith in Uncle Sam.

Here's a simple question. Do you believe in the 10th amendment?

The document holds up reasonably well. The amendment process helped it immensely. The problem with 50 states holding 50 experiments is we end up with arguments in some states over whether evolution should be taught or intelligent design should be taught. This is an idea that is great in theory, but fails in practice. Your assumption that states would apply what works best in other states is a big one. States like Texas with weak education records are constantly making things worse by pushing political agendas in their text books with no regard for how well it works in the classroom.

It has been my experience that government becomes even more corrupt the closer to home you get. State governments are more corrupt than the federal government. City governments are more corrupt than state governments. I've owned small businesses and had to work with city and state governments and I much prefer doing business with Uncle Sam.

As for the 10th amendment, of course I believe in it, but I do not 100% agree with it. I do believe powers not granted to the government should go to the people. I prefer limited state government. Conservatives see all the evils of the federal government but fail to see the follies of state governments. My overall sentiment on government in general is to have as little government as possible, but as much as needed.

[Nbadan]

You could fix many of the problems with public education really easily and you don't have to get rid of the Dept of Education, but you have to get rid of no child left behind......

The real problem is our one size fits all approach to education.....Kids should be separated at middle school, those which are going to college go to magnet schools and those that aren't will be geared toward trade schools....the first part is already happening..

[Wild Cobra]

The problem with 50 states holding 50 experiments is we end up with arguments in some states over whether evolution should be taught or intelligent design should be taught.
So you need protection for your ideas? Afraid a state or two will teach something you disagree with?

Why don't we just make you dictator?

This is an idea that is great in theory, but fails in practice. Your assumption that states would apply what works best in other states is a big one. States like Texas with weak education records are constantly making things worse by pushing political agendas in their text books with no regard for how well it works in the classroom.

And this agenda isn't in other states already?


It has been my experience that government becomes even more corrupt the closer to home you get. State governments are more corrupt than the federal government. City governments are more corrupt than state governments. I've owned small businesses and had to work with city and state governments and I much prefer doing business with Uncle Sam.

They are all corrupt. So shouldn't we remove a few layers of corruption?


As for the 10th amendment, of course I believe in it, but I do not 100% agree with it.
I don't think you agree 10% with it.

I do believe powers not granted to the government should go to the people. I prefer limited state government.
Then why do you wish it to trump state and local rights with schools?

Conservatives see all the evils of the federal government but fail to see the follies of state governments. My overall sentiment on government in general is to have as little government as possible, but as much as needed.

That doesn't agree with you wanting to keep the kids under the thumbs of the feds.
[QUOTE=mercos]

[ElNono]

Those that want to and can afford to, can go to a religious school and learn intelligent design and all the fairy tales. Evidently the federal government is doing a terrible job at preventing diversity in education.

[NewcastleKEG]

You could fix many of the problems with public education really easily and you don't have to get rid of the Dept of Education, but you have to get rid of no child left behind......

The real problem is our one size fits all approach to education.....Kids should be separated at middle school, those which are going to college go to magnet schools and those that aren't will be geared toward trade schools....the first part is already happening..
Whoa your talking some crazy socialist, no ''Be anything you want to be''

I agree 100%

[boutons_deux]

WC, extreme right-wing parrot extraordinaire, echoing the "kill public education" strategy of the VRWC.

eg, does anyone think a shitbag like Murdoch is getting into education because he cares about education?

[Winehole23]

http://www2.ed.gov/programs/gtep/gtep.pdf

[mercos]

Wild Cobra, it is not about what I want to be taught in science class. It is about what the experts want. I defer to scientists on what should be taught in science class, not religious zealots. All I am looking for is federal standards that will assure that every student in the country has the competitive edge they need in competing in the global economy. It is my opinion that this will not happen if students are wasting time in science class studying religious theories instead of scientific theories. As long as states are still setting the agenda that is bound to happen.

[boutons_deux]

With a student debt bubble of $1T, the expiring low rate of Federally insured student loans is up to be doubled soon. Let's see if the Repugs vote to block extending the rate cut, while relentlessly pushing hard to cut taxes on UCA and the 1%. The Repugs have already pushed to cut Pell grants.

[xrayzebra]

Education Department. More like advocate for extreme policies, do as I say or you
don't get no Federal dollars.

Once again, people think government has all the experts. They don't. Many up there
in never, never land have a hard time signing the own name and have a hard time
figuring out 2 + 2 = 4.

It is like everything else, somewhere along the way it was determined that
government could do a better job than the local people. They cant! All I have
seen is more breakfast, dinner and supper plans, after school programs and
pre-pre K programs.

Just more of the examples of government taking responsibility for feeding and
caring for the children. Does really contribute to their education.

I love the poorer school district always moaning about how they cant spend as
much money as the rich districts and so their kids are poorly educated. Well
folks the reason the poor districts kids are poorly educated, is not that they don't
get the knowledge, they do. It is because they cant get the parents of these
kids to keep them in school so they can obtain the knowledge. It is pretty well
proven that those that stay in school, whether rich or poor, can go on to college
and get a good solid education in some field and really succeed in life. Poor doesn't
make you dumb. Lack of education is what makes you dumb. Someone needs
to educate the parents to keep their kids in school and that it is their responsibility
to raise these kids, not government.

[Wild Cobra]

Wild Cobra, it is not about what I want to be taught in science class. It is about what the experts want. I defer to scientists on what should be taught in science class, not religious zealots. All I am looking for is federal standards that will assure that every student in the country has the competitive edge they need in competing in the global economy. It is my opinion that this will not happen if students are wasting time in science class studying religious theories instead of scientific theories. As long as states are still setting the agenda that is bound to happen.
I see... Experts, higher powers, etc. have never been wrong...

[baseline bum]

So you're for teaching about the flying spaghetti monster?

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Education Department. More like advocate for extreme policies, do as I say or you
don't get no Federal dollars.

Once again, people think government has all the experts. They don't. Many up there
in never, never land have a hard time signing the own name and have a hard time
figuring out 2 + 2 = 4.

It is like everything else, somewhere along the way it was determined that
government could do a better job than the local people. They cant! All I have
seen is more breakfast, dinner and supper plans, after school programs and
pre-pre K programs.

Just more of the examples of government taking responsibility for feeding and
caring for the children. Does really contribute to their education.

I love the poorer school district always moaning about how they cant spend as
much money as the rich districts and so their kids are poorly educated. Well
folks the reason the poor districts kids are poorly educated, is not that they don't
get the knowledge, they do. It is because they cant get the parents of these
kids to keep them in school so they can obtain the knowledge. It is pretty well
proven that those that stay in school, whether rich or poor, can go on to college
and get a good solid education in some field and really succeed in life. Poor doesn't
make you dumb. Lack of education is what makes you dumb. Someone needs
to educate the parents to keep their kids in school and that it is their responsibility
to raise these kids, not government.
:lol maybe if you paid more attention in public school you'd be able to write in paragraph more

[Wild Cobra]

So you're for teaching about the flying spaghetti monster?

No, but I think people's fear about what their local area may do is allowing a bigger devil in.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

I see... Experts, higher powers, etc. have never been wrong...
In science vs. Church debates, science is almost always right

Earth being round vs. Earth being flat :lmao

Earth rotating around the Suns vs. the Earth being the center of the universe :lmao

[baseline bum]

No, but I think people's fear about what their local area may do is allowing a bigger devil in.

Why not teach the flying spaghetti monster?

[Wild Cobra]

In science vs. Church debates, science is almost always right

Earth being round vs. Earth being flat :lmao

Earth rotating around the Suns vs. the Earth being the center of the universe :lmao
Yep, the "experts" interpretation of the Bible is often wrong. So are the experts interpretation in other areas.

Keep in mind. Intelligent design does not exclusively mean creationism. I think anyone open minded will agree there are other more plausible possibilities. I don't expect you to understand since you only think within a limited box, but that's OK. It is an explanation that still allows there to be higher powers, but that doesn't mean necessarily God. It could be aliens. It could be more advanced humans of the past that were wiped out somehow. We can only speculate, but to totally dismiss it is completely unscientific.

[baseline bum]

:lmao

Bullshit, ID absolutely means biblical creationism as outlined in Genesis, which is why it lost in the courts. The shitty textbook the sophist definition of ID comes from had creationism in place of intelligent design almost word for word in its preprint drafts.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

"Intelligent design" was what creationists started calling creationism when they were fighting against evolution being taught to make it sound like a smarter idea and not completely retarded.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

:lmao

Bullshit, ID absolutely means biblical creationism as outlined in Genesis, which is why it lost in the courts. The shitty textbook the sophist definition of ID comes from had creationism in place of intelligent design almost word for word in an earlier edition.
:lmao exactly.


It's the same thing.

[Wild Cobra]

:lmao

Bullshit, ID absolutely means biblical creationism as outlined in Genesis, which is why it lost in the courts. The shitty textbook the sophist definition of ID comes from had creationism in place of intelligent design almost word for word in an earlier edition.
Sorry, maybe it means that to some, but not all of us.

[baseline bum]

No, that's what it means to all neocon republican dittoheads.

[baseline bum]

In science vs. Church debates, science is almost always right

Earth being round vs. Earth being flat :lmao

Earth rotating around the Suns vs. the Earth being the center of the universe :lmao

Evolution by natural selection or 6 million species on a ship captained by a 900 year old?

[Wild Cobra]

No, that's what it means to all neocon republican dittoheads.
I see...

You're an expert now?

Well, I am not a ditto-head, neocon, or republican.

[baseline bum]

I see...

You're an expert now?

Well, I am not a ditto-head, neocon, or republican.

They don't get any more republican than your ass.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Evolution by natural selection or 6 million species on a ship captained by a 900 year old?
lol Noah's arc

[baseline bum]

lol Noah's arc

indeed

xggQqUyLrCM

[Wild Cobra]

They don't get any more republican than your ass.
Proving your ignorance again. I'm fine with that. I'm used to it.

[mercos]

I have no problem with anything being tested and examined, including intelligent design. The problem with ID is that it is a hypothesis. For it to be a scientific theory it has to be able to be tested and proven through scientific evidence. The only explanation I have heard for ID is that the universe is simply to complex to happen by chance. That is not scientific. Remember, for something to be a scientific theory is has to be verified. ID has not met this criteria, thus it should not be taught. We should not be teaching a religious hypothesis in school. As someone pointed out you might as well be teaching about the flying spaghetti monster because it has just as much scientific basis as ID.

[Nbadan]

Nothing wrong with an intelligent design versus evolution class, but that is a philosophy class, not science, and that is not a high school level course

[Wild Cobra]

I have no problem with anything being tested and examined, including intelligent design. The problem with ID is that it is a hypothesis. For it to be a scientific theory it has to be able to be tested and proven through scientific evidence. The only explanation I have heard for ID is that the universe is simply to complex to happen by chance. That is not scientific. Remember, for something to be a scientific theory is has to be verified. ID has not met this criteria, thus it should not be taught. We should not be teaching a religious hypothesis in school. As someone pointed out you might as well be teaching about the flying spaghetti monster because it has just as much scientific basis as ID.
So would you have a problem with it being used in scientific discussions as a hypothesis vs. a theory?

[mercos]

I have absolutely no problems with ID being discussed in scientific discussions at all. Scientists should look into any legitimate hypothesis. Scientists do not have a bias against religion, they simply do not accept faith or ancient writings as scientific evidence. Until ID passes through the scientific method there is no basis to teach it in a science class. As Nbadan said, you can make an argument for teaching it in philosophy, but not science.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

so you're for teaching about the flying spaghetti monster?

yes please please please!!!

[vy65]

Is VY65 really so stupid that he thinks the Federal Government can make kids want to learn when presented with the opportunity?

Try again.

[vy65]

I disagree. Now they didn't foresee things like modern communications, but the document still holds up well since their intent was a limited federal government.

What would be wrong with having 50 different state agencies, not beholden to anyone but their constituents? 50 experiments, with each watching each other and applying what works best at the lowest price...

States rights is the way to go. Too bad people want to put their faith in Uncle Sam.

Here's a simple question. Do you believe in the 10th amendment?

If only there was some big event that, you know, kinda dealt with this issue. A real big thing - like maybe a war or something, you know? And it would be even better if they, like, passed laws and stuff after that war dealing with these issues, you know?

[ElNono]

I see...

You're an expert now?

Are you?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Are you?

Hes not even an expert on what he does for a living.

[Proxy]

So would you have a problem with it being used in scientific discussions as a hypothesis vs. a theory?

ID vs Evolution... a problem... not really something to get worked up about other than the argument being a complete wash. You need to understand that the word theory means something different in scientific terms. Religion belongs no where in a book of facts or questions based on facts, and you refuse to see that because your mommy said otherwise and you're too blind to see our existence for what it really is. Your mindset is an embodiment of the kind of people that keep this race from meeting it's true potential... but don't worry. It's just your evolutionary brain at work. Superstition keeps you happy.

[SourCandy]

I see...

You're an expert now?



online,yes..everyone is.