Grades: Spurs @ Grizzlies - Feb. 5

[timvp]

Revenge is best served in the playoffs, but so far this regular season the Spurs have done a good job of reminding the Grizzlies about the true hierarchy in the Western Conference. The latest reminder was an 89-84 victory that featured a number of runs.

The Spurs led by as many as 14 points in the first half, however a ragged end to the second quarter helped the Grizzlies cut their deficit to six points by halftime. In the third quarter, the Spurs pushed their advantage back to 13 points. Unfortunately, San Antonio's offense stalled and went scoreless for the next six minutes, which allowed Memphis to go on a 25-6 run to close the third.

In the final stanza, the Spurs went back to the basics: stout defense on one end and pounding the ball into the paint in the other end. The result was a 22-11 quarter and the five-point victory.

Overall, it was a very good victory. The Spurs could have crumbled after that third quarter drought. Instead, they ramped up their defensive intensity and gutted out a quality road win. Holding the Grizzlies to 37.3% shooting was great way to begin the 2012 Rodeo Road Trip.

http://oi44.tinypic.com/15y9ap5.jpg

Tim Duncan A
Defensively, Tim Duncan was outstanding. In fact, there's little doubt that this was his best defensive effort of the season. His protection of the rim, especially late, was otherworldly. He battled Marc Gasol for positioning all night. His pick-and-roll defense was splendid throughout. On offense, he was mostly really good. In the fourth, he scored a number of key hoops to steady the ship. The only complaint I have was that Duncan seemed to tire in the third quarter and wasn't nearly as effective for a stretch. That said, since he came back and played so well in the fourth, I should probably just shut up.

Tony Parker B+
For a time in the first half, Tony Parker was playing flawless basketball. He was carving up the Grizzlies off of pick-and-rolls and in transition. Even on defense, Parker seemed to be a step ahead of everyone else. In an attempt to slow Parker, the Grizzlies started pressuring him more and threw a number of traps at him -- and the strategy worked. Not only did it get Parker out of his sweet spots, breaking the press exhausted him. In the final two quarters, he wasn't nearly as good. Although, when the Spurs really needed him, Parker resurfaced. With the Spurs trailing by one point with five minutes remaining, the All-Star hopeful scored four straight points and San Antonio never trailed again.

Richard Jefferson C+
It was more of the same out of Richard Jefferson. This time, though, Jefferson didn't hurt the team much because Pop limited his minutes. I give him credit for knocking down half his shots and giving adequate effort on the glass, but that's about it. Jefferson was especially useless when the Grizzlies started trapping the Spurs because he's such a poor ballhandler and passer that it put even more of the onus on Parker to carry the load. Thankfully, Pop realized that and kept him on the bench for most of the game's final 18 minutes.

DeJuan Blair C+
The good: DeJuan Blair did a better than normal job on the defensive glass and his D was relatively good. Plus, going 2-for-4 was a step in the right direction considering he was 2-for-10 in his last three games. The bad: Blair isn't running well and his usually sneaky-good passing skills have vanished. All in all, it's obvious that he's not feeling 100% physically and he's making things worse by forcing the issue too often.

Kawhi Leonard B
For the second consecutive game, Kawhi Leonard played very good defense against Rudy Gay. While it wasn't quite the mastery we witnessed the last time these two teams played, Gay was held to 5-of-13 shooting with no assists and four turnovers when Leonard was on the floor. The rookie's quickness and length is a good set of tools against a player like Gay who usually just shoots over opponents. Offensively, Leonard was a liability. He knocked down his first shot -- a three-pointer -- but was otherwise either getting in the way or succumbing to the ball pressure applied by the Grizzlies.

Danny Green C+
What an odd outing by Danny Green. As you can tell by the stats, he wasn't exactly on fire from the field. Additionally, he made a handful of mental mistakes that had me questioning why Pop was sticking with him. Then, in the fourth quarter, Pop's trust in him paid off when Green delivered three fantastic passes. The first one resulted in a layup for Tiago Splitter. He then zipped a one-handed, no-look bounce pass to Splitter for a layup and a foul. Green's final amazing pass led to a dunk by TD. With the Grizzlies trapping Parker, the Spurs needed someone to find the open man against the scrambling defense and Green stepped up to that challenge. He also played good transition defense in the fourth and was his usual disruptive self on the boards. For someone who did so much wrong, Green actually played pretty darn well -- if that makes any sense.

Matt Bonner B-
Matt Bonner didn't score after midway through the second quarter and wasn't of much help on the boards, yet was on the court for 29 minutes. While it's questionable whether he deserved that much playing time, he wasn't hurting the team when he was out there. On defense, Memphis wasn't going at him at all. Offensively, the Grizzlies paid a lot of attention to him so that allowed him to be of some value despite the lack of scoring.

Gary Neal C
Within three minutes of playing time, Gary Neal had drained two three-pointers. The rest of the night, Neal's offense wasn't pretty -- to put it nicely. He wasn't finding open teammates and the Grizzlies pressure really bothered him. The scouting report on him is starting to get around because every team now knows to pressure his weak dribble and then jump the passing lanes. The result is usually Neal either turning it over or almost turning it over. Defensively against Memphis, Neal had a couple of bad fouls that added to his misery. However, he also played some strong defense at times; it can't be stated enough how much Neal's D has improved from earlier this season.

Tiago Splitter A-
This is the type of game we are coming to expect out of Tiago Splitter. Offensively, he just doesn't miss around the basket. He knows where to go to get open and his decision-making regarding how to finish at the rim has been impeccable. If anything, Splitter can afford to pass less and look to score even more often when he gets the rock. Defensively, he had a slow start, especially guarding the post, but he turned it around and was very good by the fourth quarter. When Duncan and Splitter are both playing this well, the Spurs constantly have a very capable bigman on the court at all times -- and that's a big reason why the team has been able to survive the injury to Manu Ginobili so well thus far.

James Anderson B+
The human igniter, also known as James Anderson, once again played a role in sparking a run by the Spurs. Pop likes to turn to him when everything seems to be spiraling out of control and, for some reason, the Spurs start playing better right when Anderson steps on the court. I can't explain why but it's definitely become a pattern. Versus the Grizzlies, Anderson's lone made field goal was a gigantic three-pointer in the fourth quarter that gave the Spurs the lead for the first time in the final period. Other than that, Anderson did a good job of running the court and he showed great intensity on the defensive end.

Pop B+
Pop allowing a struggling Green to play important minutes turned out to be a genius move. Giving Duncan a lot of rest leading up to his fourth quarter stint was vital. Sitting Jefferson was also a key adjustment. Playing Anderson worked out in Pop's favor, even though I think he might have left him in a minute or so too long. Pop's refusal to play Duncan and Splitter together throughout the season hurt tonight because even though both were playing well, it just didn't work to play them together late in the game due to a lack of chemistry. Pop was right to go back to Bonner but he was only right because he hasn't allowed Splitter to learn how to coexist next to Duncan.

[ElNono]

:pop: "What you want me to do LJ? Play with two centers?"

:bang

Thanks for the writeup :toast

[Borosai]

Bonner soaring from the paint to contest Gay's shot at the end. A+

[jjktkk]

Spot on grades Tim, thanks.

[BoricuaCJA]

I missed the game since I was working. Anyone know where I can go to watch it?
(PM me :D)


Duncan had a vintage game and from what I read and heard from people, was a monster on the defensive end.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

timvp, you giving green a C+ for tonight's performance means you have definitely raised the bar on his game. I mean, a month ago, tonight's game is definitely a B+ at least. Not that I'm bitching....he's played good enough to warrant raising the bar.

[TDMVPDPOY]

james anderson b+? 8min only...

[spurs10]

Thanks, good read! Green was indeed vindicated at the end of the game. The ft's were just what we needed. The 3 T's were hard to beat to be sure..

[mercos]

Nice way to start the RRT. I was very impressed with the way the team was able to claw its way back after falling behind by 6 on the road in the fourth quarter. It is really surprising to me how much better Duncan looks this year compared to last year. I think the weight cut is really helping him on the boards. His back to the basket game has suffered a bit, but it was a worthy sacrifice imo. The few minutes that Duncan and Splitter played together were good to see. They completely sealed the paint and played some terrific defense in a very important stretch of the game. Good win, hopefully more will follow.

[Mugen]

Thanks timvp. Some thoughts:

-you can honestly count the times RJ has driven to the hoop this season with one hand. Bonner has taken it to the basket more than him this year. It's really sad considering he was at one time one of the best finishers in the league.

-memphis does a good job of being physical with the screener on the PnR. it throws off the timing of the offense often resulting in the TP fadeaway jumper

-kawhi has been moving a lot better laterally the last couple of weeks. When the season started, he was a lot slower than i expected and not really that athletic. he's done a better job moving side to side as well as running through picks the last couple of games

-i like Danny and the intangibles he brings but he makes some dumb plays. This is the 2nd game in a row where he's given up an And 1 by goaltending after a foul. I'm not gonna complain too much because hes great at recovering with a block but he needs to play smarter.

Question, do you think Tiago and Tim can ever be effective together on offense? I know they haven't seen much time together and there's a lot of room for improvement. But the only way i see it working is if they alternate touches on the low block which isn't exactly the smartest way to attack defenses especially with great PnR players like TP and Manu.....

[ducks]

green is a d not c

[Libri]

Bonner soaring from the paint to contest Gay's shot at the end. A+

Good defense on that play by the sandwich man.

[007nites]

Think I'd give Green a C-. He made a couple nice plays here and there but he hurt us too more then he did good.

[ElNono]

When the Spurs fell into that 6 point hole in the 3rd, Pop threw that Dallas comeback lineup out there (Neal,Green,Anderson,Tiago,Bonner). They struggled a bit scoring the first couple of possessions, but the defense really picked up. I have a feeling we're going to see a bit more of that second unit lineup if they keep playing D like that.

[therealtruth]

Thanks timvp. Some thoughts:

-you can honestly count the times RJ has driven to the hoop this season with one hand. Bonner has taken it to the basket more than him this year. It's really sad considering he was at one time one of the best finishers in the league.

-memphis does a good job of being physical with the screener on the PnR. it throws off the timing of the offense often resulting in the TP fadeaway jumper

-kawhi has been moving a lot better laterally the last couple of weeks. When the season started, he was a lot slower than i expected and not really that athletic. he's done a better job moving side to side as well as running through picks the last couple of games

-i like Danny and the intangibles he brings but he makes some dumb plays. This is the 2nd game in a row where he's given up an And 1 by goaltending after a foul. I'm not gonna complain too much because hes great at recovering with a block but he needs to play smarter.

Question, do you think Tiago and Tim can ever be effective together on offense? I know they haven't seen much time together and there's a lot of room for improvement. But the only way i see it working is if they alternate touches on the low block which isn't exactly the smartest way to attack defenses especially with great PnR players like TP and Manu.....

They just need to attack the weaker defender on the low block. It will probably be Tiago with the height advantage over the power forward. It will probably force the teams to double and make it easier for everyone. When's the last time Blair or Bonner force double teams? But both Tiago and Tim can force doubles.

[angelbelow]

Missed the game so thanks for the write up.

Duncan is doing fine work for my fantasy team. Oh, and I guess hes not bad for the Spurs either.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Think I'd give Green a C-. He made a couple nice plays here and there but he hurt us too more then he did good.

Personally I'd say B- to a solid B


He made plays when we needed to wrap up the win.

His defense on Rudy Gay in transition was absolutely perfect (I think Gay freaked out by how high Danny jumped and thats why he missed the easy lay in), he made clutch passes when the Spurs offense was struggling....

The guy will get better come April, mark my words. He's a freakin player, and the Spurs FO is showing that they have found a diamond in tha doodoo yet again.

[TDMVPDPOY]

shouldnt pop allow KL to play more freely and roam on defense with erratic play, like how GREEN is doing....hence on offense he should be more attacking and less passive on the sidelines

[jjktkk]

When the Spurs fell into that 6 point hole in the 3rd, Pop threw that Dallas comeback lineup out there (Neal,Green,Anderson,Tiago,Bonner). They struggled a bit scoring the first couple of possessions, but the defense really picked up. I have a feeling we're going to see a bit more of that second unit lineup if they keep playing D like that.

Could this be the reason Pop won't start Splitter?

[angelbelow]

Could this be the reason Pop won't start Splitter?

The most compelling argument thus far for no Splitter in the starting lineup/being paired with Duncan is the bench problem. So I definitely feel like that's one major reason pop isn't rolling with Duncan and Tiago. However, I personally favor the Duncan and Splitter starting line up with those two getting most of the big men minutes.

I feel like the pros would outweigh the cons. Our best defensive front court starts and sets defensive tone for the game. Our offense would be more than fine with Ginobili back, Duncan playing the high post (which hes been doing for most of the season), and we could even move RJ to the bench and have Leonard start as well. And you could still stick Tiago with that energy lineup of Neal, Green, Anderson and Bonner. Unless Tiago has cardio problems (which I doubt and could actually be fixed if he played more), I don't see why he shouldn't be getting 25-30 minutes a game for the rest of the season. He's proven to be that kind of player. Even on off-nights where his shooting was off, he still found other ways to contribute (offensive rebounds, solid defense, hustle, etc.)

Our 2003 championship team didn't really have a deep front line either. Outside of the starting duo of Duncan and Robinson, it was Rose who would take the majority of the remaining minutes. Next in line were Danny Ferry and Kevin Willis. Both Ferry and Willis played limited minutes that season. So it was basically a 3 man rotation of Duncan, Robinson and Rose.

[ElNono]

Could this be the reason Pop won't start Splitter?

Personally, I think Pop feels he gets enough offense running through Tim, Tony and eventually Manu as far as starters are concerned. Blair is (or I should say, was) a scrapper guy that gets his from misses. Jefferson has been neutered enough to be a spot up shooter in that role (or any role, seemingly) also.

It's difficult to get Tiago involved offensively with that lineup if you don't post him up, etc. Considering how much Blair has regressed though, I much rather have Tiago out there, even just for defensive/paint protection/rebounding purposes.

Then there's the obvious problem of playing the Bonner/Blair duo from the bench... There's no solution to that unless Splitter plays with the second unit or the Spurs somehow acquire a serviceable big to play that role.

[ElNono]

Frankly, I don't see why Tiago couldn't be playing at the very least 25mpg other than foul trouble... He's been by far our best rim protector alongside Tim this season. The guy had his good and bad games, but defensively he's at the point where he's altering shots just being there.

[jjktkk]

Frankly, I don't see why Tiago couldn't be playing at the very least 25mpg other than foul trouble... He's been by far our best rim protector alongside Tim this season. The guy had his good and bad games, but defensively he's at the point where he's altering shots just being there.

Maybe another reason is Splitter has proven that he can produce coming off the bench, where as Blair showed last year that he didn't handle losing his starting gig well and handled his coming off the bench, poorly.

[ElNono]

Maybe another reason is Splitter has proven that he can produce coming off the bench, where as Blair showed last year that he didn't handle losing his starting gig well and handled his coming off the bench, poorly.

Well, at some point you have to put the team over the individual. I mean, right now Blair is giving us very little as a starter too.
That might change a bit when Manu comes back, but on things like rebounding, he just has to put more effort in there.

[jjktkk]

Well, at some point you have to put the team over the individual. I mean, right now Blair is giving us very little as a starter too.
That might change a bit when Manu comes back, but on things like rebounding, he just has to put more effort in there.

Thats whats killing me about Blair. The only guy on this roster that just tries to coast out there. :bang

[Darkwaters]

Thats whats killing me about Blair. The only guy on this roster that just tries to coast out there. :bang

You think Dick Jefferson hasn't been coasting downhill all season?

[Robz4000]

Another solid write-up timvp. Only two changes on my end: give Bonner and Green Bs. When Bonner plays more aggressively, good things seem to happen. Since the Dallas game he's been playing with heart, and when he does it allows his game to improve drastically. Green made some dumb mistakes, but all in all he did exactly what he needs to do, and that's bring the energy. He never backed off, even after failing, and in the end persevered to play a key role in this win. Also, tbh, this was an occasion where Pop should've left Splitter in with Duncan. They were beginning to develop a form of rhythm. Whose to say where it would have taken them, but a trial by fire might've been more beneficial in the long run, considering this is exactly the type of game they're gonna see in the playoffs.

[will_spurs]

Minor comment: could you please include the full boxscore? Would be useful to see important stats from the other team like TOs, offensive rebounds or FG%.

[TE]

One problem with your grades. Blair was arguably the main reason we gave up the lead in the third quarter. He is useless and pathetic in terms of basketball IQ and it shows in every damn game. A D- at best tbh

[Muser]

Damn Duncan was a beast.

[Wild Cobra Kai]

Think I'd give Green a C-. He made a couple nice plays here and there but he hurt us too more then he did good.

He made BIG plays LATE, and that's worth a letter grade bump. He rebounded, passed, and defended well. That's the EXACT effort that Pop wants to see from a player who's shot isn't falling. That bounce pass he dropped between Gasol's legs to Timmy for the dunk late was positively Manu-esque.

[Wild Cobra Kai]

Minor comment: could you please include the full boxscore? Would be useful to see important stats from the other team like TOs, offensive rebounds or FG%.

It's available on NBA.com. Use a tabbed browser and toggle back and forth.

[Ice009]

What do people think about Kawhi's offense? I'm a little worried that Pop might cut his minutes in the playoffs if he doesn't improve and find a niche offensively.

[Bruno]

It was a huge win.

More like individual grades, Spurs' team as a whole deserves a lot of props. After Manu's injury, expectations were Spurs being about a .500 team. To make it worse, they have lost TJ Ford just after Manu. The worst was expected but they are 14-7 without Manu. That's just great even more than Spurs have had a very condensed schedule that wasn't particularly easy or home oriented. You had to be proud about what Spurs have done this past month.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Great write up timvp, the only disagreement I have is Pop was graded too high.

I don't know if we should just accept that Tiago will almost never break the 25 MPG barrier, but it's just getting downright silly with his inability to find more minutes for Tiago. It's going to really suck if he doesn't play Tim/Tiago enough during the regular season to give this team a good shot to be ready come playoff time.

Maybe a trade or picking someone up off a buyout will happen to add another big, but it is still puzzling how much Pop hates Tiago.

[acoelho1]

Tiago shoots 6 for 7 and only gets 20mins..sigh. On the positive note, at least Green is getting the minutes over RJ. Sure, he makes mistakes and his shot is inconsistent but he makes things happen out on the court and is aggressive on defensive.

[urunobili]

The team plays better with Anderson on the court because he is constantly passing the rock! thanks timvp!

[benefactor]

It was a huge win.

More like individual grades, Spurs' team as a whole deserves a lot of props. After Manu's injury, expectations were Spurs being about a .500 team. To make it worse, they have lost TJ Ford just after Manu. The worst was expected but they are 14-7 without Manu. That's just great even more than Spurs have had a very condensed schedule that wasn't particularly easy or home oriented. You had to be proud about what Spurs have done this past month.
Agreed. There were players that had ups and downs in this game but the overall team effort gets an A+ from me. There is more fight from top to bottom in this Spurs team then we have seen in a long time.

[Mel_13]

It was a huge win.

More like individual grades, Spurs' team as a whole deserves a lot of props. After Manu's injury, expectations were Spurs being about a .500 team. To make it worse, they have lost TJ Ford just after Manu. The worst was expected but they are 14-7 without Manu. That's just great even more than Spurs have had a very condensed schedule that wasn't particularly easy or home oriented. You had to be proud about what Spurs have done this past month.

Yes.

From top to bottom the team has stepped up, and Tim and Tony have played like champions.

[TDMVPDPOY]

What do people think about Kawhi's offense? I'm a little worried that Pop might cut his minutes in the playoffs if he doesn't improve and find a niche offensively.

he will be like every rookie on this team for the last couple of seasons...will not see any minutes in the playoffs unless pop is force or plays the mercy card

[WeNeedLength]

he will be like every rookie on this team for the last couple of seasons...will not see any minutes in the playoffs unless pop is force or plays the mercy card

I don't see how Pop would bench Leonard in the playoffs unless he started turning over the ball rampantly. He's our best perimeter defender and has successfully defended the likes of Durant and Gay. I don't see him being benched in the playoffs unless, like I said, just becomes a turnover machine. There's enough offense out there to make up for his passiveness...

[GSH]

DeJuan Blair
All in all, it's obvious that he's not feeling 100% physically and he's making things worse by forcing the issue too often.

I hadn't thought of Blair's struggles in terms of him being less than 100% physically. Is there some court injury you are thinking about, or just general observation? If the latter, do you think it's his knees?


Danny Green
With the Grizzlies trapping Parker, the Spurs needed someone to find the open man against the scrambling defense and Green stepped up to that challenge.

I think we are going to see teams trapping Parker with more regularity. If a team wants to shut down one player badly enough, they can do it. Unfortunately, nobody else was facilitating plays. Do you think Pop would have gone with that two-PG lineup, if TJ Ford were healthy?

Green made some bad plays, no question. I think he also got victimized by having the ball dumped on him near the end of the shot clock several times, with no place to go. I think he also made at least one other good feed to Tiago that he just mishandled, and another to Anderson for an alley-oop, which Anderson just missed. In the game thread, people were screaming about him taking some shots that were really very good looks. He needs to knock them down, but there's a big difference between missing an open shot and being dumb.

Gary Neal
The scouting report on him is starting to get around because every team now knows to pressure his weak dribble and then jump the passing lanes. The result is usually Neal either turning it over or almost turning it over.

That's the biggest reason why the Neal-as-a-PG experiment needs to stop. There is absolutely no doubt that word it out, and teams are going straight after him when he's got the ball. He might have the opportunity to improve, if he was receiving a normal amount of pressure. But this is a recipe for failure, and it doesn't do him or the team justice.

Tiago Splitter
When Duncan and Splitter are both playing this well, the Spurs constantly have a very capable bigman on the court at all times -- and that's a big reason why the team has been able to survive the injury to Manu Ginobili so well thus far.

I would sure like to see a little more time when the Spurs have two very capable big men on the court, and maybe a chance at a little bit of dominance in the middle. And I keep thinking how deadly Tim could be with that bank shot, if the other team was forced to cover Tiago in the low blocks. And how that could be enough to starte getting those WIDE open 3-point looks we used to get. And...

[will_spurs]

I think we are going to see teams trapping Parker with more regularity. If a team wants to shut down one player badly enough, they can do it. Unfortunately, nobody else was facilitating plays. Do you think Pop would have gone with that two-PG lineup, if TJ Ford were healthy?

The answer in the past was usually to put Manu in with Tony in order to have 2 players who can create for others. If TJ Ford plays the same as he was paying when he got injured (i.e. sharing the ball well) then he could be another weapon to make teams pay for focusing too much on Tony.

[therealtruth]

Tiago shoots 6 for 7 and only gets 20mins..sigh. On the positive note, at least Green is getting the minutes over RJ. Sure, he makes mistakes and his shot is inconsistent but he makes things happen out on the court and is aggressive on defensive.

Exactly. Tiago should be getting more shots. He has the highest FG%. I'd rather win with Tiago getting and making high percentage shots than Bonner taking 3's that he won't hit in the playoffs. Tiago will be able to get those same shots in the playoffs or a foul or double team. The double teams will make it easier for the 3 point shooters. It's generally easier to hit a 3 of a pass out of the post than of a drive and kick situation like they tried against the Grizzlies last year.

[therealtruth]

Don't forget the Grizzlies had played away in Boston the night before.

[Horse]

The most compelling argument thus far for no Splitter in the starting lineup/being paired with Duncan is the bench problem. So I definitely feel like that's one major reason pop isn't rolling with Duncan and Tiago. However, I personally favor the Duncan and Splitter starting line up with those two getting most of the big men minutes.

I feel like the pros would outweigh the cons. Our best defensive front court starts and sets defensive tone for the game. Our offense would be more than fine with Ginobili back, Duncan playing the high post (which hes been doing for most of the season), and we could even move RJ to the bench and have Leonard start as well. And you could still stick Tiago with that energy lineup of Neal, Green, Anderson and Bonner. Unless Tiago has cardio problems (which I doubt and could actually be fixed if he played more), I don't see why he shouldn't be getting 25-30 minutes a game for the rest of the season. He's proven to be that kind of player. Even on off-nights where his shooting was off, he still found other ways to contribute (offensive rebounds, solid defense, hustle, etc.)

Our 2003 championship team didn't really have a deep front line either. Outside of the starting duo of Duncan and Robinson, it was Rose who would take the majority of the remaining minutes. Next in line were Danny Ferry and Kevin Willis. Both Ferry and Willis played limited minutes that season. So it was basically a 3 man rotation of Duncan, Robinson and Rose.
Agreed, and they don't have to come out at the same time. Bring Bonner or Blair in, but keep Tiago out there a few more minutes. Then Bring Timmy back in for Tiago. Then end the game with them out there together. Something like that could work.

[024]

green's grade of C+ is fair. i rather have his hustle and energy over jefferson's power of invisibility.

having green out there actively making plays is a very refreshing thing to see. he just needs to refine his game and cut down on his mistakes. that will take time. in fact, if green was not on the floor, i'm sure the spurs would have lost the game because the entire offense sputtered (familiar sight) but green stepped up and made plays.

[quentin_compson]

Was this the second game in a row where Green was whistled for goaltending after there had been a foul call already? At least it's the second time it has happened over the last couple of games.
His two passes to Tiago and Tim were great, though.

[timvp]

-you can honestly count the times RJ has driven to the hoop this season with one hand. Bonner has taken it to the basket more than him this year. It's really sad considering he was at one time one of the best finishers in the league.Yeah, Bonner has definitely been more of a driver this season than RJ, which is indeed a shocking turn of events. While RJ has lost athleticism, that's not the only thing that has changed because it's not like we see him even attempting layups. He's just much lazier and scared this year.

Looking back on it, it's almost like he's not willing to put his body on the line for a team that nearly amnestied him. That's the only explanation that makes sense to me.


-kawhi has been moving a lot better laterally the last couple of weeks. When the season started, he was a lot slower than i expected and not really that athletic. he's done a better job moving side to side as well as running through picks the last couple of gamesGood observation. He has been much better at navigating around screens recently.

Now if only he can teach Danny Green to do the same . . .


-i like Danny and the intangibles he brings but he makes some dumb plays. This is the 2nd game in a row where he's given up an And 1 by goaltending after a foul. I'm not gonna complain too much because hes great at recovering with a block but he needs to play smarter. Green's mistakes are Ginobili-esque in that they are usually a result of just playing so hard. Ginobili, especially compared to earlier in his career, has been able to cut down on that type of mistakes. Hopefully Green can do the same as he gains more experience.


Question, do you think Tiago and Tim can ever be effective together on offense? I know they haven't seen much time together and there's a lot of room for improvement. But the only way i see it working is if they alternate touches on the low block which isn't exactly the smartest way to attack defenses especially with great PnR players like TP and Manu.....I think it can work. Last night was unquestionably a mess, though. A couple times, Parker was calling a play for Splitter to post up due to Splitter's size advantage over Cunningham but one time Splitter just ran the wrong play and on another time Duncan overruled Parker's call and demanded the ball. Then there was the time Duncan was fronted, which meant that Splitter should have gone to the high post ... but it took Splitter about five seconds to realize where he should go.

Those issues can be ironed out with playing time. I understand your concern but with Duncan showing more of an outside jumper and Splitter understanding spacing so well, there's no reason why it can't work. But it is going to take A LOT of minutes. And preferably, those minutes won't be in the guts of the game because that will end up costing the Spurs a bunch of wins.

I hate to keep harping on it but the only answer here is Splitter starting next to Duncan. That will grow the needed chemistry and vastly increase the Spurs chances of winning a championship. I don't buy the talk that Bonner and Blair can't both come off the bench because once the playoffs arrive, the Spurs historically shift to a three-man bigman rotation anyways. Starting Splitter and Duncan with either Bonner or Blair called on depending on matchups is what the Spurs will need to do to win a championship.

Not allowing Duncan and Splitter to figure each other out is the fastest way to make this team a pretender instead of a contender.

[GSH]

The most compelling argument thus far for no Splitter in the starting lineup/being paired with Duncan is the bench problem. So I definitely feel like that's one major reason pop isn't rolling with Duncan and Tiago.

Next in line were Danny Ferry and Kevin Willis. Both Ferry and Willis played limited minutes that season. So it was basically a 3 man rotation of Duncan, Robinson and Rose.


Pretty solid logic all around. I mean that. And if there hadn't been so many times that both Tim and Tiago were on the bench, I would think that was exactly what Pop has in mind. (Last night was the first time I remember that one of them was on the floor for pretty much the whole game.)

If Pop is going to play Tim 30 minutes, that leaves 18 minutes for Tiago to cover. But Tiago ought to be good for 28, don't you think? So we ought to be able to see Tim and Tiago together for at least 10 minutes per game, anyway. I'd settle for that right now.

And BTW - I would kill for a Kevin Willis right now. That was a very bad man. In his last season with the Spurs, his per/36 numbers were still like 16 and 10, and he could lay some serious wood on an opposing big and make him think twice about strolling to the rim. Give me 10 minutes per night of a guy like that.

[timvp]

shouldnt pop allow KL to play more freely and roam on defense with erratic play, like how GREEN is doing

No. Leonard is the lockdown perimeter defender of the future. His job is to concentrate on shutting down the other team's best perimeter defender.

Pop sometimes tries to use Green in that role but the truth is Green isn't a very good one-on-one perimeter defender. Instead, Green is best used as a roamer. That's when his ability to come out of nowhere to block shots and steal rebounds really comes in handy.

[DPG21920]

If Spliiter is going the way of Gortat a la Orlando, should the Spurs put him on the trade block for someone who theyll play for 25 minutes plus or the highest draft pick they can get or as incentive to dump RJ and save money?

[jjktkk]

If Spliiter is going the way of Gortat a la Orlando, should the Spurs put him on the trade block for someone who theyll play for 25 minutes plus or the highest draft pick they can get or as incentive to dump RJ and save money?

No.

[ChumpDumper]

If Spliiter is going the way of Gortat a la Orlando, should the Spurs put him on the trade block for someone who theyll play for 25 minutes plus or the highest draft pick they can get or as incentive to dump RJ and save money?Nope.

[therealtruth]

I hate to keep harping on it but the only answer here is Splitter starting next to Duncan. That will grow the needed chemistry and vastly increase the Spurs chances of winning a championship. I don't buy the talk that Bonner and Blair can't both come off the bench because once the playoffs arrive, the Spurs historically shift to a three-man bigman rotation anyways. Starting Splitter and Duncan with either Bonner or Blair called on depending on matchups is what the Spurs will need to do to win a championship.

Not allowing Duncan and Splitter to figure each other out is the fastest way to make this team a pretender instead of a contender.

I could not agree any more. Ideally that third big of the bench could also have been Dice.

[GSH]

No. Leonard is the lockdown perimeter defender of the future. His job is to concentrate on shutting down the other team's best perimeter defender.

Pop sometimes tries to use Green in that role but the truth is Green isn't a very good one-on-one perimeter defender. Instead, Green is best used as a roamer. That's when his ability to come out of nowhere to block shots and steal rebounds really comes in handy.

:tu


Thank you. Lots of people wanting to compare Green to Bruce Bowen, and then getting upset when he doesn't live up to it. Leonard has drawn some of the toughest defensive assignments in the league, and done a hell of a job. Especially for a rookie. For a couple of games, I thought the pressure of that might be getting to him, but he's proved that wrong in a big way I think.

Green cheats down to help around, and in, the paint - a lot. He does a pretty good job of staying around the passing lane to his man while he's doing it, but he gets burned doing it, too. But he disrupts a lot more plays than people here give him credit for. I've watched a lot of bigs coming across the paint get the ball swatted by Green - sometimes just enough to make them juggle it. But also enough to make them tank the shot they were in the process of putting up. He's got quick hands, and good anticipation. But he's also going to get burned at times, playing like that. Pop understands that, or Green wouldn't be getting the minutes he does.

Kawhi and Green together cause a lot of havoc. If they both get better at what they each do, we've done a lot of re-building in place.

[timvp]

Think I'd give Green a C-.


Personally I'd say B- to a solid B


green is a d not c


Only two changes on my end: give Bonner and Green Bs.


green's grade of C+ is fair.

:lol Yeah, it was difficult to grade Green. On one hand, he was 0-for-8 with two turnovers plus about four or five notable mistakes on defense. On the other hand, a few of his shots were late in the clock and he came up big with assists and defense when it mattered most.

Even after watching the game again, I'll stick with C+ being fair. If he would have hit some shots or didn't make those defensive mistakes, his heroics at the end likely wouldn't have been needed. Then again, those late plays were so good that his grade shouldn't suffer too much.

[timvp]

One problem with your grades. Blair was arguably the main reason we gave up the lead in the third quarter. He is useless and pathetic in terms of basketball IQ and it shows in every damn game. A D- at best tbh

Gotta disagree on just about all points. Blair left the game in the third with the Spurs up by nine points, so I'm not sure he could be blamed for blowing the lead. A D- would be harsh for a guy who was pretty darn solid on D. And typically, I'd say Blair has a relatively high basketball IQ for a power forward.

The last few weeks that IQ has been MIA but I doubt it's a case of him suddenly becoming a bad player.

[DPG21920]

I'm not saying Tiago should or should not just posing the question. What is the value of a guy who will only play 17-20 per game? If you can get a top 15 pick is a 20 min per game guy worth that? If he can save you millions by allowing someone to take RJ is giving up 20 mpg with that? If you can swap him + a few other pieces for someone who Pop sees as a better fit (a skilled power forward vs just a blue collar guy) is that worth it? If he isn't going to be used like a 2nd big consistently, much like Gortat in Orlando why are these not viable options in yalls opinion?

[timvp]

I hadn't thought of Blair's struggles in terms of him being less than 100% physically. Is there some court injury you are thinking about, or just general observation? If the latter, do you think it's his knees?I think it's his knees. Even in a normal regular season, he had a ton of swelling between games. With a condensed schedule, one would have to imagine that his knees are in even worse shape.

Where it shows up the most is running the court. Early in the season, he was oftentimes the first player up and down the court for the Spurs. Nowadays, it's a struggle for him to keep up with the pack.

It's a shame because Blair had been a really helpful player despite his shortcomings. I'm hoping that in these next couple weeks that Blair can get a lot of rest and get a second wind.

I know Spurs Fan has given up on him but I think Blair has a future as long as his knees cooperate.


Do you think Pop would have gone with that two-PG lineup, if TJ Ford were healthy?That would have been an option but then again, the Grizzlies would have been able to swarm even more due to Ford's lack of outside jumper. Memphis still respected Green's jumper, which help spread the court enough for Green to find the bigs at the basket.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

One thing about Blair is that while his offense has gone down the drain these past few weeks, his defense has been pretty solid for the most part.

The way he guarded Dirk, Scola, and others was a real pleasant surprise.


As for Danny Green, the saying was something like "Danny Green had one of the better 0-7 games in recent years" might've been spot on :lol

[timvp]

I'm not saying Tiago should or should not just posing the question. What is the value of a guy who will only play 17-20 per game? If you can get a top 15 pick is a 20 min per game guy worth that? If he can save you millions by allowing someone to take RJ is giving up 20 mpg with that? If you can swap him + a few other pieces for someone who Pop sees as a better fit (a skilled power forward vs just a blue collar guy) is that worth it? If he isn't going to be used like a 2nd big consistently, much like Gortat in Orlando why are these not viable options in yalls opinion?

The big difference is that Gortat is older than Howard, while Splitter is eight years younger than Duncan. Even if the worse scenario happens and Pop continues to play Splitter as Duncan's backup, Splitter's value remains very high because of the uncertainty of Duncan's future.

Talented bigmen like Splitter are way too difficult to come by to trade him now for 50 cents on the dollar. Considering Splitter's potential to blow up if given 30+ minutes per game, I'd say he's close to untradeable right now. You just can't trade a guy whose future value is potentially so much higher than his current value.

[DPG21920]

The big difference is that Gortat is older than Howard, while Splitter is eight years younger than Duncan. Even if the worse scenario happens and Pop continues to play Splitter as Duncan's backup, Splitter's value remains very high because of the uncertainty of Duncan's future.

Talented bigmen like Splitter are way too difficult to come by to trade him now for 50 cents on the dollar. Considering Splitter's potential to blow up if given 30+ minutes per game, I'd say he's close to untradeable right now. You just can't trade a guy whose future value is potentially so much higher than his current value.

What matters is not Duncan's age, but how Pop views him. Pop clearly doesn't see him as someone that can blow up if given consistent minutes because he publicly states otherwise & he doesn't give him 30 minutes when his competition is Matt & Blair.

How can a bench guy who can't beat out Blair and Bonner and whom the coach calls not very skilled be untradeable is my question I guess. Is getting a top 15 pick really pennies on the dollar for him in this scenario?

If Pop and you truly believe that then it really makes no sense how Tiago is used. I can live with it if pop truly believes he isn't skilled and is just a blue collar oberto-type player. In that case a top 15 pick for Oberto? Seems more than fair. If pop is lying and just not using Tiago for other reasons and going out of his way to name everyone but him as a reason the team is improving than it makes zero sense.

[ChumpDumper]

I'm not saying Tiago should or should not just posing the question. What is the value of a guy who will only play 17-20 per game? If you can get a top 15 pick is a 20 min per game guy worth that? If he can save you millions by allowing someone to take RJ is giving up 20 mpg with that? If you can swap him + a few other pieces for someone who Pop sees as a better fit (a skilled power forward vs just a blue collar guy) is that worth it? If he isn't going to be used like a 2nd big consistently, much like Gortat in Orlando why are these not viable options in yalls opinion?Tim will retire soon and play less regardless.

[GSH]

I think it's his knees. Even in a normal regular season, he had a ton of swelling between games. With a condensed schedule, one would have to imagine that his knees are in even worse shape.

Where it shows up the most is running the court. Early in the season, he was oftentimes the first player up and down the court for the Spurs. Nowadays, it's a struggle for him to keep up with the pack.

It's a shame because Blair had been a really helpful player despite his shortcomings. I'm hoping that in these next couple weeks that Blair can get a lot of rest and get a second wind.




Well, that all fits. And it makes me a little queasy to think about. Frankly, I'd rather think he's going through a little slump, than that his knees aren't holding up. For his sake, and for the team's. I've been convinced that he drifts mentally - but maybe he's just struggling physcially? Or maybe a little of both.

The big improvement he made for this year, I think, is that he started doing a lot more of his work BEFORE his man gets the ball. A lot of people don't appreciate that, and it will never make a highlight reel. But fronting well, denying his man the ball, or forcing him to take it 4-5 feet further from the basket - those things show up in opponent FG%. And Blair has improved immensely in that department, I think. But it's also hard work that would put a lot of extra stress on knees that already have a problem.

:depressed Dammit.




Do I detect a hint of sarcasm?


Not even a little bit. Truth is, I don't disagree with Timvp very often. Even when I do, I spend some time questioning my position first. I thought the grades were all dead on. I added my two cents, which is what it's usually worth.

[timvp]

What matters is not Duncan's age, but how Pop views him. Pop clearly doesn't see him as someone that can blow up if given consistent minutes because he publicly states otherwise & he doesn't give him 30 minutes when his competition is Matt & Blair. Pop views Duncan and Splitter as centers and Blair and Bonner as power forwards. Splitter, in Pop's eyes, isn't competing with Blair and Bonner for minutes.

And you can never go by anything Pop says. He scoffed at giving Splitter more minutes after the Rockets game and followed it up by giving Splitter his most minutes since the opener. Pop doesn't like to admit when he's wrong and he surely will never admit it to the press during the middle of the season.

An fitting example is the 2005-06 season. All year long he laughed when any reporter asked about playing Oberto more minutes. But then once the season was over, Pop said he was an idiot for not playing him more minutes that year.

If Pop fails to play Splitter more minutes in the coming months, I bet he'll be pulling the idiot card once again this summer . . .

[jjktkk]

I'm not saying Tiago should or should not just posing the question. What is the value of a guy who will only play 17-20 per game? If you can get a top 15 pick is a 20 min per game guy worth that? If he can save you millions by allowing someone to take RJ is giving up 20 mpg with that? If you can swap him + a few other pieces for someone who Pop sees as a better fit (a skilled power forward vs just a blue collar guy) is that worth it? If he isn't going to be used like a 2nd big consistently, much like Gortat in Orlando why are these not viable options in yalls opinion?

I see what your doing. :stirpot:

[ElNono]

If Pop fails to play Splitter more minutes in the coming months, I bet he'll be pulling the idiot card once again this summer . . .

Didn't he pull that card at the end of last season wrt Splitter? IIRC, he did mention something about Splitter not being ready and needing him for the series.

[DPG21920]

Do you think Pop views him as a true skilled big capable of being a centerpiece or do you think he really places his abilities on par w Oberto?

[DPG21920]

All I'm saying is a top 15 pick for a blue collar 17-20 big who isn't a part of the reason the team is improving has to be considered pretty good value for a team that's rebuilding some, no?

[jjktkk]

Do you think Pop views him as a true skilled big capable of being a centerpiece or do you think he really places his abilities on par w Oberto?

Depends on what is your definition of a "centerpiece". IMO, I hope Pop views Splitter as a starting caliber center. Oberto was a role player, albeit, an important one.

[Mel_13]

All I'm saying is a top 15 pick for a blue collar 17-20 big who isn't a part of the reason the team is improving has to be considered pretty good value for a team that's rebuilding some, no?

He's averaging 21.1 mpg. Why use 17-20 rather than 21-25? You could call him the defensive anchor of the second unit rather than a blue collar big. Methinks someone is trolling. Effectively trolling, but still...

[DPG21920]

Depends on what is your definition of a "centerpiece". IMO, I hope Pop views Splitter as a starting caliber center. Oberto was a role player, albeit, an important one.

Yes, I meant like you described. He seems to compare Tiago with Oberto vs say a quality starting big. I wonder if you all believe pop sees Tiago as Oberto.

[jjktkk]

He's averaging 21.1 mpg. Why use 17-20 rather than 21-25? You could call him the defensive anchor of the second unit rather than a blue collar big. Methinks someone is trolling. Effectively trolling, but still...

[DPG21920]

He's averaging 21.1 mpg. Why use 17-20 rather than 21-25? You could call him the defensive anchor of the second unit rather than a blue collar big. Methinks someone is trolling. Effectively trolling, but still...

Because 21 is closer to 20 and in watching the games I feel his average is inflated due to garbage time minutes and/or Tim being out. Me saying 17-20 with 20 being the ceiling when he averages 21 isn't off base IMO. Especially consistently as I described.

I also didn't call him blue collar, I was quoting Pops comments and assessment of Tiago. I'm not trolling (at least not fully), I'm posing questions to question pops logic and what we as fans truly believe Pop thinks of Tiago.

[jjktkk]

Yes, I meant like you described. He seems to compare Tiago with Oberto vs say a quality starting big. I wonder if you all believe pop sees Tiago as Oberto.

No I believe Pop views that Splitter>Oberto, regardless if it doesn't show in Splitter's playing time.

[Mel_13]

Because 21 is closer to 20 and in watching the games I feel his average is inflated due to garbage time minutes and/or Tim being out. Me saying 17-20 with 20 being the ceiling when he averages 21 isn't off base IMO. Especially consistently as I described.

I also didn't call him blue collar, I was quoting Pops comments and assessment of Tiago. I'm not trolling (at least not fully), I'm posing questions to question pops logic and what we as fans truly believe Pop thinks of Tiago.

:lol

I appreciate your work here, DPG.

[ChumpDumper]

Yes, I meant like you described. He seems to compare Tiago with Oberto vs say a quality starting big. I wonder if you all believe pop sees Tiago as Oberto.Nope.

[DPG21920]

Nope.

I hope you're right cdiddy. I feel this team has a legit shot at the finals (even if they're not a favorite) due to circumstance and Pops mindset with regards to Tiago can obviously have huge implications.

[therealtruth]

He's averaging 21.1 mpg. Why use 17-20 rather than 21-25? You could call him the defensive anchor of the second unit rather than a blue collar big. Methinks someone is trolling. Effectively trolling, but still...

Splitter is capable of playing 30+ minutes but Pop is giving him Dice's minutes from last year. Heck if Dice was here he might not even play him.

[Mel_13]

I hope you're right cdiddy. I feel this team has a legit shot at the finals (even if they're not a favorite) due to circumstance and Pops mindset with regards to Tiago can obviously have huge implications.

Have you noticed how effective the Splitter/Bonner tandem has become on both ends of the court? I know it's not fashionable to notice anything positive that involves Bonner, but the chemistry between the two of them is very good (Splitter mentioned it in the TV postgame last night).

[Mel_13]

Splitter is capable of playing 30+ minutes but Pop is giving him Dice's minutes from last year. Heck if Dice was here he might not even play him.

You state that as a fact. Your evidence?

[ElNono]

Have you noticed how effective the Splitter/Bonner tandem has become on both ends of the court? I know it's not fashionable to notice anything positive that involves Bonner, but the chemistry between the two of them is very good (Splitter mentioned it in the TV postgame last night).

Heck, I noticed and pointed it out in this very same thread...
I'm still skeptic it will translate to the playoffs though. It's not like Matt hasn't shined in the regular season before. But credit where credit is due, that Dallas-comeback lineup that includes Tiago and Matt have played some stoic defense out there.

[angelbelow]

And BTW - I would kill for a Kevin Willis right now. That was a very bad man. In his last season with the Spurs, his per/36 numbers were still like 16 and 10, and he could lay some serious wood on an opposing big and make him think twice about strolling to the rim. Give me 10 minutes per night of a guy like that.

I'm a big fan of the enforcer concept too. That 5th/6th veteran big who holds all the records in the weight room and is savvy enough to play smart defense (or lay some serious wood lol.) I liked Massenburg as well because he always looked so intimidating. If Blair was a legit 6'9 he be a great one.

[angelbelow]

Have you noticed how effective the Splitter/Bonner tandem has become on both ends of the court? I know it's not fashionable to notice anything positive that involves Bonner, but the chemistry between the two of them is very good (Splitter mentioned it in the TV postgame last night).

Splitter does a FANTASTIC job of finding Matt for the open 3. Their tag team partnership produces at least 1 open 3 for Matty per game. In the regular season, if the possession ends with a wide open Matty 3, then I'm content. On the flip side Bonner really does spread the floor (also not fashionable to use Bonner and spreading the floor in a serious tone) for Tiago to work in the post.

Defensively, Splitter does a great job protecting the paint. Matt is still pretty invisible on defense which could suggest that Tiago is doing a good enough job in the paint area for our defense to be passable.

[DPG21920]

Have you noticed how effective the Splitter/Bonner tandem has become on both ends of the court? I know it's not fashionable to notice anything positive that involves Bonner, but the chemistry between the two of them is very good (Splitter mentioned it in the TV postgame last night).

Definitely have noticed that, but as many others have stated, Bonner has let the team down in the playoffs numerous times, so at this point it would be foolish to think otherwise (even if we hope for the best).

Even if you take that out, in my opinion Tiago deserves more than 21MPG and he deserves more consistent minutes (last 5 games for Tiago: 19, 16, 28, 17 & 14). I also believe that despite how good the chemistry between Tiago and Bonner are, that you should play to your strengths and having two legit bigs to defend, rebound, score and pass is what gives the team the best shot to win a title (which is the goal). So for as good as Bonner and Tiago have been, Blair has been bad as a starter and that needs to change and there are legitimate concerns about Bonner and Blair's playoff effectiveness.

I really just wanted to see how ST felt about Pop's assessment and use of Tiago. It seems as if basically everyone thinks that Pop is being flat out intellectually dishonest when he states Tiago is much more than a blue-collar guy who's getting as many minutes as he can afford to give him. I also wanted to question that if Pop truly believes that, but another team doesn't, if they are offered a top 15 pick for Tiago in this year's draft isn't that pretty damn good value for a bigger Oberto (in Pop's eyes if what he says has any shred of truth to it).

[Mel_13]

Tiago deserves more than 21MPG

How many?

Do you have any idea the greatest number of minutes that Tiago has played in any professional season?

[ElNono]

How many?

Do you have any idea the greatest number of minutes that Tiago has played in any professional season?

I was looking that up today... 25mpg sounds like his average, although during the lockout he did average 30mpg in Spain... small sample size though.

[ElNono]

He's young though... I don't particularly see any specific physical constrain that would prevent him from working up his minutes to around 30...

[DPG21920]

How many?

Do you have any idea the greatest number of minutes that Tiago has played in any professional season?

He's played an average of 29MPG at least once and 28MPG a couple times as well. Given, the season was shorter, but those were his averages. Whether or not we think he can hold up is another question, but the real question is he deserves more minutes. When someone deserves something, he should be given the chance to fail at it.

[Mel_13]

I was looking that up today... 25mpg sounds like his average, although during the lockout he did average 30mpg in Spain... small sample size though.

Yeah, and that was playing 2 games a week in a season that stretched over 7+ months. He never reached 1500 minutes in any one season.

At 21 mpg, he'll be right at 1400 minutes in a 4 month season playing 4 games a week with the playoffs still to come.

Duncan 27 mpg
Blair 22 mpg
Tiago 21 mpg
Bonner 20 mpg

Only ST could look at those numbers and conclude that Pop hates Splitter and doesn't appreciate his various talents and skills.

[DPG21920]

I'd say he needs to average 25MPG consistently with the ability to play 27-30 in the playoffs. That 25MPG shouldn't be the anomaly, it should be consistent.

In the games he's played over 25 minutes:

16/7/1 block on 77% FG
8/7 on 33% FG
12/7/2 on 71% FG
25/10 on 85% FG
5/8/2 on 28% FG - First game of the season

I just find it odd that Spurs fans imply we just happen to have the only players in the league that can't play normal minutes without being babied.

[Mel_13]

He's played an average of 29MPG at least once and 28MPG a couple times as well. Given, the season was shorter, but those were his averages. Whether or not we think he can hold up is another question, but the real question is he deserves more minutes. When someone deserves something, he should be given the chance to fail at it.

The seasons were longer in months, but with fewer games.

So what is the number? 24? 26?

[DPG21920]

Yeah, and that was playing 2 games a week in a season that stretched over 7+ months. He never reached 1500 minutes in any one season.

At 21 mpg, he'll be right at 1400 minutes in a 4 month season playing 4 games a week with the playoffs still to come.

Duncan 27 mpg
Blair 22 mpg
Tiago 21 mpg
Bonner 20 mpg

Only ST could look at those numbers and conclude that Pop hates Splitter and doesn't appreciate his various talents and skills.

That makes no sense to me. How many minutes do college players play? By that logic, because they never play as long as NBA players/seasons, they aren't capable of doing so.

What has shown you that he is incapable of playing 27MPG over the course of a longer season? Is he more fragile than any other player that played overseas only to come to the NBA?

The fact he's behind Blair, with Tim playing a career low in minutes per game and only ahead of Bonner because he gets garbage minutes tells me enough about Pop's thoughts on him (that and all of the comments Pop makes about Tiago since last season).

[Mel_13]

I'd say he needs to average 25MPG consistently with the ability to play 27-30 in the playoffs. That 25MPG shouldn't be the anomaly, it should be consistent.

In the games he's played over 25 minutes:

16/7/1 block on 77% FG
8/7 on 33% FG
12/7/2 on 71% FG
25/10 on 85% FG
5/8/2 on 28% FG - First game of the season

I just find it odd that Spurs fans imply we just happen to have the only players in the league that can't play normal minutes without being babied.

So an extra 4mpg will make everyone happy?

And your inferences are yours alone.

[Mel_13]

That makes no sense to me. How many minutes do college players play? By that logic, because they never play as long as NBA players/seasons, they aren't capable of doing so.

What has shown you that he is incapable of playing 27MPG over the course of a longer season? Is he more fragile than any other player that played overseas only to come to the NBA?

The fact he's behind Blair, with Tim playing a career low in minutes per game and only ahead of Bonner because he gets garbage minutes tells me enough about Pop's thoughts on him (that and all of the comments Pop makes about Tiago since last season).

I didn't say he wasn't capable of more minutes, only that he had never done so before. You inferred the rest.

So an extra 4mpg will make everyone happy?

I'm in.

[DPG21920]

So an extra 4mpg will make everyone happy?

And your inferences are yours alone.

Many people think and have commented that Tony, Tim and Manu have to have minutes regulated and even need to sit out games. It's not just me at all.

Also, why ask the questions of how many minutes he Tiago played then? What were you getting at by saying he's never played more than x minutes and that their season had far less games?

[DPG21920]

I didn't say he wasn't capable of more minutes, only that he had never done so before. You inferred the rest.

So an extra 4mpg will make everyone happy?

I'm in.

It's not about the extra four minutes. It's about 25 MPG being the norm. There is absolutely no reason (this is just my opinion) that Tiago should have as many games under 20 minutes as he does over that mark (even if it averages out because to date, it only averages out because Tim sat a game and he gets garbage time minutes).

I'm talking about 25MPG consistently, when the game matters, with only a few isolated games beneath that mark. Not 50% of the games with sub 20MPG.

[ElNono]

Yeah, and that was playing 2 games a week in a season that stretched over 7+ months. He never reached 1500 minutes in any one season.

He's fairly young though. That he didn't play those many minutes before doesn't mean he can't play them now. I mean, I'm pretty sure Manu didn't play as many minutes before walking in to the NBA. Same goes with a lot of college players where the game is only 40 mins.


At 21 mpg, he'll be right at 1400 minutes in a 4 month season playing 4 games a week with the playoffs still to come.

Duncan 27 mpg
Blair 22 mpg
Tiago 21 mpg
Bonner 20 mpg

Only ST could look at those numbers and conclude that Pop hates Splitter and doesn't appreciate his various talents and skills.

Well, I personally never said Pop hates Splitter or some such. I do think Pop has a very particular vision of Splitter the player that he commented on himself, something pointed out by Bruno and timpvp in another thread, and that I don't particularly think reflects fairly on Tiago.

[Mel_13]

Many people think and have commented that Tony, Tim and Manu have to have minutes regulated and even need to sit out games. It's not just me at all.

Also, why ask the questions of how many minutes he Tiago played then? What were you getting at by saying he's never played more than x minutes and that their season had far less games?

Many people here say Tiago can and should play 30mpg. That would have him playing about 2000 minutes in 4 months with the playoffs still to come. Perhaps he can do it. Fact is, he's never played even 1500 minutes in a 7 month season, inclusive playoffs.

You have a ridiculous schedule and 4 players to share 90 minutes. I'm not convinced the current distribution is the travesty that some here seem to think it is.

But if an additional 4mpg will keep the peace, I'm in.

[mystargtr34]

I posted this in the 'Until when' thread.. but the action seems to happening in here so i moved it.


Theres nothing that says you cant have one of Tim or Tiago on the court at all times if they start the game together.. its definately manageable.

1st Q
6 minutes - Sub in Blair for Tiago
2 minutes - Sub in Tiago for Tim

2nd Q
12 minutes - Sub in Bonner for Blair
5 minutes - Sub in Tim for Tiago
2 minutes - Sub in Blair for Bonner

Tim - 30 minutes
Tiago - 30 minutes
Bonner - 18 minutes
Blair - 18 minutes

If Matty is playing well and hitting his 3's as he has been lately.. there are extra minutes available at the expense of Blair. Plus they will play the majority of their minutes against bench players.

30 minutes each may be ecessive for Tim and Tiago during the regular season.. so you may have to go a 2 or 3 minutes stretch with Blair and Bonner provided they can match up against bench bigs during that time. Or perhaps try some small ball with Leonard at the 4.. considering playing Bonner and Blair at the 4 is pretty much small ball anyway due to lack of rebounding/defense and general size.

[DPG21920]

Many people here say Tiago can and should play 30mpg. That would have him playing about 2000 minutes in 4 months with the playoffs still to come. Perhaps he can do it. Fact is, he's never played even 1500 minutes in a 7 month season, inclusive playoffs.

You have a ridiculous schedule and 4 players to share 90 minutes. I'm not convinced the current distribution is the travesty that some here seem to think it is.

But if an additional 4mpg will keep the peace, I'm in.

Do you get what I'm saying about not looking at the average, but the consistency of the minutes?

Do you think that he deserves more minutes than Blair and Matt and if so, how many more? Do you think he's capable of playing 25 MPG like so many others that have come from overseas to the NBA?

[mystargtr34]

Mel_13 seems to think Tiago cant handle more than 25 minutes a night.. it may be a valid concern but like DPG said he should be given a chance at it. I do notice Tiago get winded a little when hes played a stretch of more than 8-9 minutes. Its probably true he cant play more than that in a stretch.. but imo his minutes can be increased by giving him increased intervals of playing time at lower stretches.. which is what would happen in my scenario above.

Tiago sitting for the first 10 minutes of the game while Tim is playing is eating into both his playing time.. and his rest time. if that makes sense. Those 10 minutes on the bench isnt doing him any good in terms of rest since he hasnt been on the court obviously.

[Mel_13]

Do you get what I'm saying about not looking at the average, but the consistency of the minutes?

Do you think that he deserves more minutes than Blair and Matt and if so, how many more? Do you think he's capable of playing 25 MPG like so many others that have come from overseas to the NBA?

We're watching the same games and drawing different conclusions.

I'm sure he could manage 25mpg on a nightly basis, but while the minutes may not have the consistency you would like, Tiago's role is clear defined and established. To me, it appears that understands his role and is flourishing in it. Unlike last season.

[timvp]

Splitter's specific MPG number doesn't concern me nearly as much as Splitter being ready to play next to Duncan come playoff time. If Splitter played 20 MPG and it was split seven minutes to start the game, seven minutes to start the second half and the final six minutes of the game, I'd be fine with that.

[Mel_13]

Mel_13 seems to think Tiago cant handle more than 25 minutes a night.. it may be a valid concern but like DPG said he should be given a chance at it. I do notice Tiago get winded a little when hes played a stretch of more than 8-9 minutes. Its probably true he cant play more than that in a stretch.. but imo his minutes can be increased by giving him increased intervals of playing time at lower stretches.. which is what would happen in my scenario above.

Tiago sitting for the first 10 minutes of the game while Tim is playing is eating into both his playing time.. and his rest time. if that makes sense. Those 10 minutes on the bench isnt doing him any good in terms of rest since he hasnt been on the court obviously.

No. As explained in several posts.

[Mel_13]

Splitter's specific MPG number doesn't concern me nearly as much as Splitter being ready to play next to Duncan come playoff time. If Splitter played 20 MPG and it was split seven minutes to start the game, seven minutes to start the second half and the final six minutes of the game, I'd be fine with that.

Now this is an entirely different, and more interesting, direction for the discussion.

I've got to get on the road to Austin. I'll check in later.

[dylankerouac]

Thanks for the writeup timvp! I completely agree with Neal's defense improving.

[DPG21920]

That goes into what I was talking about Mel. I said Tiago should be playing next to Tim. I also said his MPG average wasn't my biggest concern and that it's about the consistency of the minutes he deserves.

[DPG21920]

We're watching the same games and drawing different conclusions.

I'm sure he could manage 25mpg on a nightly basis, but while the minutes may not have the consistency you would like, Tiago's role is clear defined and established. To me, it appears that understands his role and is flourishing in it. Unlike last season.

We just disagree on that. Going from 28 minutes one night, to 14 the next isn't a defined role.

[DPG21920]

Now this is an entirely different, and more interesting, direction for the discussion.

I've got to get on the road to Austin. I'll check in later.

Also, what the hell :lol

[mystargtr34]

No. As explained in several posts.

Almost every single one of your posts implied that when i read it.. ill check my reading comprehension.

[ElNono]

Frankly, it's just a matter of opinion, and I know where Mel comes from. This season is going to be hurdle.

The sudden increase of minutes and stamina issues however, is something I thought has hurt the Spurs before in the postseason. It's difficult to increase an extra 10 mins or so a game while keeping a high level (like has happened with Manu before, or even Tiago last playoffs), especially when there's only a single day of rest and you might be traveling on that day.

If come playoffs time Blair continues with his current suckitude and Bonner pulls another choke job, I just hope Splitter can give us solid extended minutes if required.

[Nathan89]

Pop views Duncan and Splitter as centers and Blair and Bonner as power forwards. Splitter, in Pop's eyes, isn't competing with Blair and Bonner for minutes.


With this logic you would think Splitter would start when Duncan sits out. Nope.:nope

[SpursFaninMS]

Made the trip up to Memphis last night for the game--first trip to the Forum (used to go down to NOLA for games but relocated closer to Memphis). What an absolutely dead atmosphere in the regular season. For shame with the improvements that franchise has made.

Can't say enough about Duncan's game last night. He won it for us at the end with his defense around the basket. He really had everything working.

I'm not as high on Splitter as most of you all, but he is doing what we need him to do right now...especially last night: Rebound, make your shots around the basket, make your free throws, play solid D.

Still don't understand why Pop won't stick with Duncan + Tiago late. I thought he was finally going to when both were in at about the 4 minute mark but of course, out trots Bonner. To his credit, Bonner had a great hustle play in the fourth to prevent an easy breakaway. He had a couple of strong boards late too (hey, anything he does on D is noteworthy).

[Obstructed_View]

Yeah, Bonner has definitely been more of a driver this season than RJ, which is indeed a shocking turn of events. While RJ has lost athleticism, that's not the only thing that has changed because it's not like we see him even attempting layups. He's just much lazier and scared this year.

Looking back on it, it's almost like he's not willing to put his body on the line for a team that nearly amnestied him. That's the only explanation that makes sense to me.

I'm holding out hope that he's saving it for when it matters. The delusion goes like this: He was banged up and unable to explode (snicker) last year and just couldn't bring it in the playoffs.

[Seventyniner]

Mel, I think many of us are more concerned with Splitter's playoff MPG than regular season. We mainly want more minutes for Splitter in preparation for 30 MPG in the playoffs, not necessarily 30 MPG in the regular season.

I'd like to see something like 32 minutes one game, 15 the next, and alternate. That would keep the overall minutes down while giving Splitter a chance to get used to playing 32 in a game on a regular basis.

[therealtruth]

I'd say he needs to average 25MPG consistently with the ability to play 27-30 in the playoffs. That 25MPG shouldn't be the anomaly, it should be consistent.

In the games he's played over 25 minutes:

16/7/1 block on 77% FG
8/7 on 33% FG
12/7/2 on 71% FG
25/10 on 85% FG
5/8/2 on 28% FG - First game of the season

I just find it odd that Spurs fans imply we just happen to have the only players in the league that can't play normal minutes without being babied.

I agree. Pop's excuses for not playing him are ridiculous. Pop can start with Tiago and Tim then either bring in Blair for Tiago or Bonner for Duncan. That keeps the best lineups on the floor without too much Blair/Bonner. It allows Tiago to get consistent minutes and help establish some low post scoring and defense with Tim. Also Tiago draws more fouls and has a higher ft percentage than Blair.

[therealtruth]

Mel_13 seems to think Tiago cant handle more than 25 minutes a night.. it may be a valid concern but like DPG said he should be given a chance at it. I do notice Tiago get winded a little when hes played a stretch of more than 8-9 minutes. Its probably true he cant play more than that in a stretch.. but imo his minutes can be increased by giving him increased intervals of playing time at lower stretches.. which is what would happen in my scenario above.

Tiago sitting for the first 10 minutes of the game while Tim is playing is eating into both his playing time.. and his rest time. if that makes sense. Those 10 minutes on the bench isnt doing him any good in terms of rest since he hasnt been on the court obviously.

Exactly. Those minutes are probably minutes where he can have a greater impact by helping set the defensive tone and low post scoring. Sometimes Tim doesn't have the low post scoring go. Tiago could help him in those cases. He's almost always going to have the height advantage at the 4.

[therealtruth]

Made the trip up to Memphis last night for the game--first trip to the Forum (used to go down to NOLA for games but relocated closer to Memphis). What an absolutely dead atmosphere in the regular season. For shame with the improvements that franchise has made.

Can't say enough about Duncan's game last night. He won it for us at the end with his defense around the basket. He really had everything working.

I'm not as high on Splitter as most of you all, but he is doing what we need him to do right now...especially last night: Rebound, make your shots around the basket, make your free throws, play solid D.

Still don't understand why Pop won't stick with Duncan + Tiago late. I thought he was finally going to when both were in at about the 4 minute mark but of course, out trots Bonner. To his credit, Bonner had a great hustle play in the fourth to prevent an easy breakaway. He had a couple of strong boards late too (hey, anything he does on D is noteworthy).

Whenever Pop trots out Bonner in a defensive situation like the end of the game that tells me he no longer believes in defense. Bonner is in there for his offense. Anything he does defensively is a plus. If Pop doesn't trust defense to win games I doubt they'll advance far in the playoffs.

[z0sa]

We just disagree on that. Going from 28 minutes one night, to 14 the next isn't a defined role.

Something tells me you'd have no argument about roles if we switched Bonner and Splitter's minutes like so.

[z0sa]

Whenever Pop trots out Bonner in a defensive situation like the end of the game that tells me he no longer believes in defense. Bonner is in there for his offense. Anything he does defensively is a plus. If Pop doesn't trust defense to win games I doubt they'll advance far in the playoffs.

Do you simply not watch the games? Bonner rarely misses a rotation and shuts down multiple pick and roll plays with his footspeed almost every game.

Does he contest shots above the rim? No. But that does not make him an inadequate defender, as his +/- and advanced statistics have proven time and time again.

STOP judging Matt Bonner by the fact he is a white boy who can't jump. He has good foot speed for his size, is fairly lengthy despite the "T-rex arms" bullshit constantly being thrown around, and his BBIQ is actually rather high.

[maverick1948]

One problem with your grades. Blair was arguably the main reason we gave up the lead in the third quarter. He is useless and pathetic in terms of basketball IQ and it shows in every damn game. A D- at best tbh

Yep HE sure was the cause. We started the 3rd up by 6 and he left the game at the 6:56 mark NEVER to return. When he left we were up 9.

Now explain how it was his fault we gave the lead.

DeBear's grade was just fine. He can play better if he wants. It is his choice.

[letmk]

I agree with that Splitter and Tim playing together gives us the best chance to win, especially at the end of a game. However, we also have to consider what would happen when neither of them is on the court. That is, the combination of Blair and Bonner is the worst on the court.

I don't know about the real reason behind Pop's decision of not playing Splitter and Tim together much, but right now, keeping one of them on the court gives us a better chance to win from the perspective of the whole 48 mins.


Splitter's specific MPG number doesn't concern me nearly as much as Splitter being ready to play next to Duncan come playoff time. If Splitter played 20 MPG and it was split seven minutes to start the game, seven minutes to start the second half and the final six minutes of the game, I'd be fine with that.

[therealtruth]

Do you simply not watch the games? Bonner rarely misses a rotation and shuts down multiple pick and roll plays with his footspeed almost every game.

Does he contest shots above the rim? No. But that does not make him an inadequate defender, as his +/- and advanced statistics have proven time and time again.

STOP judging Matt Bonner by the fact he is a white boy who can't jump. He has good foot speed for his size, is fairly lengthy despite the "T-rex arms" bullshit constantly being thrown around, and his BBIQ is actually rather high.

I don't doubt his BBIQ. However, against the best teams being in the right position is not enough. You actually have to be able to challenge and block the occasional shot. With his lack of athleticism and length the minimum he should be doing is getting the rotations right. That's not something to praise him over.

[TJastal]

Do you simply not watch the games? Bonner rarely misses a rotation and shuts down multiple pick and roll plays with his footspeed almost every game.

Does he contest shots above the rim? No. But that does not make him an inadequate defender, as his +/- and advanced statistics have proven time and time again.

STOP judging Matt Bonner by the fact he is a white boy who can't jump. He has good foot speed for his size, is fairly lengthy despite the "T-rex arms" bullshit constantly being thrown around, and his BBIQ is actually rather high.

What's Bonner's +/- in the playoffs?

[GSH]

I'm sure somebody can dig up exceptions, but when a younger player gets less than about 30 minutes per game, it's generally a question of talent - not stamina. (And by that I mean the depth chart on that particular team.) I don't see anything about Splitter that says he couldn't handle starter minutes as well as anyone else. It might take a couple of weeks to complete the adjustment, just because he's been playing shorter minutes. But there's no reason to have any lower expectations for him, compared to other players in the league. Hell, plus-sized Shaq averaged 30 minutes for Phoenix, in his 17th season. He was like 37, and dragging 350 lbs. up and down the court. I just don't have any question that Tiago could handle 30-32 minutes on a regular basis.

And I feel pretty good about our bench. When Manu and TJ get back, I think the Spurs' second unit will be at least a match for anyone's.

What I worry about is whether the Duncan/Blair starting frontcourt is strong enough to handle the teams they will see in the playoffs. On nights when the 3's are falling, it's not a problem. But when they aren't? I just think it would be nice to have the size and muscle of Tim and Tiago on the floor at the same time. But if that lineup is going to really click, they need some floor time. Maybe that's an 8-10 minute stretch at the beginning of the second half. At least for now.

But if this team is serious about advancing in the playoffs, it is going to take everyone being healthy, and Tiago Splitter playing more than his current 21 minutes per game. The second part seems obvious enough that I have to believe Pop has some plan for making it happen. Because when I start thinking he doesn't, I get all twitchy and stuff.

[Mel_13]

We just disagree on that. Going from 28 minutes one night, to 14 the next isn't a defined role.

His role is backup center, defensive anchor of the second unit, and primary post threat of that unit. He plays virtually every minute that Tim Duncan is on the bench. He has developed superb chemistry with other members of that unit, in particular Bonner and Green. To my eyes, he has flourished in this clearly defined role. As Duncan's backup, Tiago's minutes will vary as Tim's minutes vary, but the role is clearly defined.


Almost every single one of your posts implied that when i read it.. ill check my reading comprehension.

I can't control what you infer, but I intended no such implication.

Let me be as clear as possible. Tiago has never played much more than 200 minutes per month in his career. At 21mpg, he's already at about 350. At 25mpg, it's about 400. 30mpg puts him at roughly 500. I have no idea at what point he might hit a wall or become more susceptible to some sort of stress injury.

What is certain is that adding additional minutes increases risk. Even if he's perfectly fit and never suffers a groin strain or a hamstring injury, the additional minutes carry additional risks of landing on someone's foot or taking a knee in the thigh. Even a minor injury can cost 6, 8, or 10 games.

So, I'd have to be convinced that there was sufficient potential benefit to cover the additional risk. "He deserves it" doesn't cut it for me.


Mel, I think many of us are more concerned with Splitter's playoff MPG than regular season. We mainly want more minutes for Splitter in preparation for 30 MPG in the playoffs, not necessarily 30 MPG in the regular season.

I'd like to see something like 32 minutes one game, 15 the next, and alternate. That would keep the overall minutes down while giving Splitter a chance to get used to playing 32 in a game on a regular basis.

I agree that the Spurs will need something like 30mpg from Tiago in the playoffs. I'm not sure of the best way to get him there. I do know that they finish the season playing 25 games in 42 days, including 8 games in the final 11 days. I'm sure playing 30 mpg in every game down the stretch isn't the way.


I agree with that Splitter and Tim playing together gives us the best chance to win, especially at the end of a game. However, we also have to consider what would happen when neither of them is on the court. That is, the combination of Blair and Bonner is the worst on the court.

I don't know about the real reason behind Pop's decision of not playing Splitter and Tim together much, but right now, keeping one of them on the court gives us a better chance to win from the perspective of the whole 48 mins.

This is the primary problem with the subject that timvp raised. At present, the Spurs have at least one defensive anchor/rim protector on the court for every single meaningful minute. Starting Tim and Tiago together means significant minutes every game with no defensive anchor. Plus, there will be some growing pains as Tim and Tiago learn to play together.

In the short term, the team's performance will probably suffer. It will be up to Pop to decide if the long term benefits are worth the price. I believe they will be, but I don't see it as a sure thing.

[TJastal]

I agree with that Splitter and Tim playing together gives us the best chance to win, especially at the end of a game. However, we also have to consider what would happen when neither of them is on the court. That is, the combination of Blair and Bonner is the worst on the court.

I don't know about the real reason behind Pop's decision of not playing Splitter and Tim together much, but right now, keeping one of them on the court gives us a better chance to win from the perspective of the whole 48 mins.

Funny, I don't recall that many objections a few years ago when Pop was going through his "mad scientist" phase with his Finley/Jefferson PF lineups.

A Blair / Bonner frontline beats the hell out of those.

[mystargtr34]

The only issue with Tiago starting is if Kawhi also starts.. a lineup with Tim-Tiago-Kawhi-Manu-Parker only gives you one floor spreader which may reduce Tiago's effectiveness. Having said that.. Blair is a liability starting so anything is probably an upgrade at this point.

The positive of that lineup is its by far the Spurs defensive unit.. so you have a chance at restricting the oppositions best players from the get go and not letting them get into a groove.

Although he finished 9-26 we all saw what happened to Rudy Gay once he got going offensively.

[mystargtr34]

His role is backup center, defensive anchor of the second unit, and primary post threat of that unit. He plays virtually every minute that Tim Duncan is on the bench. He has developed superb chemistry with other members of that unit, in particular Bonner and Green. To my eyes, he has flourished in this clearly defined role. As Duncan's backup, Tiago's minutes will vary as Tim's minutes vary, but the role is clearly defined.



I can't control what you infer, but I intended no such implication.

Let me be as clear as possible. Tiago has never played much more than 200 minutes per month in his career. At 21mpg, he's already at about 350. At 25mpg, it's about 400. 30mpg puts him at roughly 500. I have no idea at what point he might hit a wall or become more susceptible to some sort of stress injury.

What is certain is that adding additional minutes increases risk. Even if he's perfectly fit and never suffers a groin strain or a hamstring injury, the additional minutes carry additional risks of landing on someone's foot or taking a knee in the thigh. Even a minor injury can cost 6, 8, or 10 games.

So, I'd have to be convinced that there was sufficient potential benefit to cover the additional risk. "He deserves it" doesn't cut it for me.



I agree that the Spurs will need something like 30mpg from Tiago in the playoffs. I'm not sure of the best way to get him there. I do know that they finish the season playing 25 games in 42 days, including 8 games in the final 11 days. I'm sure playing 30 mpg in every game down the stretch isn't the way.



This is the primary problem with the subject that timvp raised. At present, the Spurs have at least one defensive anchor/rim protector on the court for every single meaningful minute. Starting Tim and Tiago together means significant minutes every game with no defensive anchor. Plus, there will be some growing pains as Tim and Tiago learn to play together.

In the short term, the team's performance will probably suffer. It will be up to Pop to decide if the long term benefits are worth the price. I believe they will be, but I don't see it as a sure thing.

I understand what your saying.. but at some point you have to let your players play basketball without babying them. You cant be worrying about an injury every single minute of the game.. unfortunately they are apart of the game. Tiago is in the prime of his career.. just turned 27 so he's a different kettle of fish to Tim and especially Manu.. not to mention his a below the rim player which further reduces the risk of injury.

Besides.. there may be a chance to reduce the risk of injury in a way that allows him to play more minutes. Currently Tiago almost always plays 2 stretches of minutes each game.. about 8-10 minutes bridging the 1st and 2nd quarters.. and then again bridging the 3rd and 4th quarters. He is usually huffing and puffing towards the end of those minutes which obviously increases the risk of injury (when your fatigued). In my scenario (or a similar one) you can play him in 4 stints each lasting about 6-8 minutes which im allows him to remain at his peak throughout each stint.

As timvp pointed out a while back.. DeJuan is giving up a PER of over 21 last time i checked to his direct opponent.. thats an astonishing number.. i dont know if its to do more with the depth and quality of the PF position in the West.. or his defense.. its probably both but i would put my money on that number being reduced if Tiago starts.

[letmk]

Funny, I don't recall that many objections a few years ago when Pop was going through his "mad scientist" phase with his Finley/Jefferson PF lineups.

A Blair / Bonner frontline beats the hell out of those.


First, that I agree with some of Pop's arrangement does not necessarily mean I agree with all of his coaching.

Second, in theory, using Finley/Jefferson in small ball might mean more offense if they can somehow hold the the ground on the defensive side. Although sadly we've seen lots of beat up by the opponents' Odom or West, theoretically you could say it's a trade-off between offense and defense, speed and size, etc.

While Blair/Bonner combination is neither small ball (as no speed, no spread) nor defense-based by any stretch. In some extreme cases, if the opponent's low-post star player is not on the court, I'd rather go REAL small with Blair and 4 perimeter players than Blair and Bonner.

[ElNono]

The only issue with Tiago starting is if Kawhi also starts.. a lineup with Tim-Tiago-Kawhi-Manu-Parker only gives you one floor spreader which may reduce Tiago's effectiveness. Having said that.. Blair is a liability starting so anything is probably an upgrade at this point.

I count at least two that can play that role...

[LongtimeSpursFan]

I count at least two that can play that role...

You need at least three.

[mystargtr34]

I count at least two that can play that role...

Well you can count Tony aswell perhaps so that gives you 3.. or maybe 2.5.

Its pushing it.. but that lineup just makes me wet for its defensive potential.

[ElNono]

You need at least three.

We don't have that many in the staring lineup right now... don't know how swapping Blair for Splitter changes the number of floor-spreaders, tbh


Well you can count Tony aswell perhaps so that gives you 3.. or maybe 2.5.

Its pushing it.. but that lineup just makes me wet for its defensive potential.

I was just counting Manu and Tim (in a role not so different from Dice last season)... while Tony has been more adept this season to go to his jumper and even the occasional 3 pointer, I would think his value is greater when penetrating...

[DPG21920]

His role is backup center, defensive anchor of the second unit, and primary post threat of that unit. He plays virtually every minute that Tim Duncan is on the bench. He has developed superb chemistry with other members of that unit, in particular Bonner and Green. To my eyes, he has flourished in this clearly defined role. As Duncan's backup, Tiago's minutes will vary as Tim's minutes vary, but the role is clearly defined.


Let me be as clear as possible. Tiago has never played much more than 200 minutes per month in his career. At 21mpg, he's already at about 350. At 25mpg, it's about 400. 30mpg puts him at roughly 500. I have no idea at what point he might hit a wall or become more susceptible to some sort of stress injury.

What is certain is that adding additional minutes increases risk. Even if he's perfectly fit and never suffers a groin strain or a hamstring injury, the additional minutes carry additional risks of landing on someone's foot or taking a knee in the thigh. Even a minor injury can cost 6, 8, or 10 games.

So, I'd have to be convinced that there was sufficient potential benefit to cover the additional risk. "He deserves it" doesn't cut it for me.



I agree that the Spurs will need something like 30mpg from Tiago in the playoffs. I'm not sure of the best way to get him there. I do know that they finish the season playing 25 games in 42 days, including 8 games in the final 11 days. I'm sure playing 30 mpg in every game down the stretch isn't the way.





This logic is absolutely crazy to me, but I guess we just disagree. Saying "he might sprain an ankle if you play him more minutes because there is more risk" doesn't cut it for me. By that logic, no one on any team should play more than 25-30 because they all run the risk. Spurs don't have some special players that need to be babied when no one else in the league really has that issue. In order to expect success, if you believe Tiago needs to play 30 minutes in the playoffs, you have to give him consistent time to learn, play and build stamina. You also have to play him with Tim if he is to play 30 MPG in the playoffs IMO.

Sure, in a bubble the logic passes by saying there is more risk with more minutes but it's a terrible excuse in reality. His previous minutes are really not relevant, much like the other guys who have come from overseas or anyone that comes from college via the draft. There are numerous examples of them playing more minutes and being fine.

I don't see how you can say "Tiago needs to play 30+ in the playoffs" but then say you don't see the benefit of giving him minutes consistently now in the regular season because those minutes could increase the risk of injury. That's more of the "Spurs have players that need to be babied" mentality.

I guess we also disagree on what constitutes "role". Just naming what Tiago is good at isn't a role. When someone doesn't know if he will play 27 minutes or 14 on any given night, there isn't a defined role to me. When a player doesn't know if he will be in to close out games that is not a defined role to me. When a player doesn't get consistent touches or plays run through him, that's not a defined role to me. Just knowing that no matter how hard you play or how well you produce won't lead to consistent playing time isn't a defined role to me. Sure, we've learned Tiago is a great player who can build chemistry with whomever he is paired with and that he is capable of being a defensive anchor, but that doesn't mean his role is defined. He has flourished because he's a damn good player, not because of any sort of consistent playing time or defined role where he knows what is going to happen every game.

[Ice009]

Here's a link to today's EN article. Looks like Tiago wasn't slighted after all when Pop didn't mention him yesterday after the game.


http://blog.mysanantonio.com/spursnation/2012/02/07/mike-monroe-manu%E2%80%99s-absence-opens-doors-for-other-spurs/

"Popovich already had acknowledged Tiago Splitter’s breakout season Monday, so he felt no need to repeat himself."

[therealtruth]

Here's a link to today's EN article. Looks like Tiago wasn't slighted after all when Pop didn't mention him yesterday after the game.

Pop said he felt no need to repeat himself or is that a popoligist making an excuse for him?

[therealtruth]

This logic is absolutely crazy to me, but I guess we just disagree. Saying "he might sprain an ankle if you play him more minutes because there is more risk" doesn't cut it for me. By that logic, no one on any team should play more than 25-30 because they all run the risk. Spurs don't have some special players that need to be babied when no one else in the league really has that issue. In order to expect success, if you believe Tiago needs to play 30 minutes in the playoffs, you have to give him consistent time to learn, play and build stamina. You also have to play him with Tim if he is to play 30 MPG in the playoffs IMO.

Sure, in a bubble the logic passes by saying there is more risk with more minutes but it's a terrible excuse in reality. His previous minutes are really not relevant, much like the other guys who have come from overseas or anyone that comes from college via the draft. There are numerous examples of them playing more minutes and being fine.

I don't see how you can say "Tiago needs to play 30+ in the playoffs" but then say you don't see the benefit of giving him minutes consistently now in the regular season because those minutes could increase the risk of injury. That's more of the "Spurs have players that need to be babied" mentality.

I guess we also disagree on what constitutes "role". Just naming what Tiago is good at isn't a role. When someone doesn't know if he will play 27 minutes or 14 on any given night, there isn't a defined role to me. When a player doesn't know if he will be in to close out games that is not a defined role to me. When a player doesn't get consistent touches or plays run through him, that's not a defined role to me. Just knowing that no matter how hard you play or how well you produce won't lead to consistent playing time isn't a defined role to me. Sure, we've learned Tiago is a great player who can build chemistry with whomever he is paired with and that he is capable of being a defensive anchor, but that doesn't mean his role is defined. He has flourished because he's a damn good player, not because of any sort of consistent playing time or defined role where he knows what is going to happen every game.

I have to agree 100%. The thing about is that if they start Tiago maybe he doesn't have to play that much because the team gets of to better starts. Why put yourself in that hole first and try to fight out of it? Teams like to start their best players so they can build a lead and then the bench can maintain it. You don't start a worse lineup and then hope to fight back or build a lead with the bench.

[ChumpDumper]

lol slighted

[Ice009]

Pop said he felt no need to repeat himself or is that a popoligist making an excuse for him?

That's why I posted it. Do you guys think Pop or the Spurs would go to the trouble of getting the paper to print that so it doesn't piss off the fans?

[therealtruth]

That's why I posted it. Do you guys think Pop or the Spurs would go to the trouble of getting the paper to print that so it doesn't piss off the fans?

Yes they did it before. They revised Pop's description of Tiago before. Pop called him a blue worker non skilled player. They revised the quote to remove the non skilled part.

[ChumpDumper]

spurfan infers too much.

[angelbelow]

This logic is absolutely crazy to me, but I guess we just disagree. Saying "he might sprain an ankle if you play him more minutes because there is more risk" doesn't cut it for me. By that logic, no one on any team should play more than 25-30 because they all run the risk. Spurs don't have some special players that need to be babied when no one else in the league really has that issue. In order to expect success, if you believe Tiago needs to play 30 minutes in the playoffs, you have to give him consistent time to learn, play and build stamina. You also have to play him with Tim if he is to play 30 MPG in the playoffs IMO.

Sure, in a bubble the logic passes by saying there is more risk with more minutes but it's a terrible excuse in reality. His previous minutes are really not relevant, much like the other guys who have come from overseas or anyone that comes from college via the draft. There are numerous examples of them playing more minutes and being fine.

I don't see how you can say "Tiago needs to play 30+ in the playoffs" but then say you don't see the benefit of giving him minutes consistently now in the regular season because those minutes could increase the risk of injury. That's more of the "Spurs have players that need to be babied" mentality.

Solid post. I was going to write something similar to your first paragraph but I had to step out for a few hours.

If cardio is a concern, then the conditioning coach should be involved. Additionally his training regimen should be monitored. This should have started during the pre-season of his rookie year. I would be extremely shocked if players don't meet with conditioning coaches and have individual plans set up for the regular season and for the offseason. How closely players follow that plan is usually dependent on their work ethic and commitment to the game. Some players go as far as to hire their own personal trainer during off-season. (Of course, we have lazy ass' too.)

Tiago had such a trainer.. or should I say training partner in Tim Duncan. Considering the great shape that Duncan was in, I can't imagine Tiago being very far behind. I don't see any draw back in preparing him for 25-30 minutes a game. Starting slow would be fine, say 22-24 minutes for a few games and eventually working up to 30. But I don't like the range of 14-28 in the past 5 games either.

The injury concern.. given our history is a valid one.. however I like the positive approach. As far as Tiago is considered, I like the mentality of more minutes = further development/all around improvement, not more minutes = increase probability of injury. With someone like Manu or Timmy, we know exactly what they're capable of and their technical skill isn't going to improve - that's when I think its more appropriate to consider injures.

[ChumpDumper]

How is anyone going to be able to do a serious training regime with this schedule?

wysiwyg for now

[angelbelow]

How is anyone going to be able to do a serious training regime with this schedule?

wysiwyg for now

Yeah, that's a good point. The condensed schedule complicates personal and team workouts/practices. A few alternatives to physical work outs: be prepared mentally (ex. sleeping schedule), diet (protein, healthy meals), lots of stretching before/after games. Again, all of this is going to depend on the players determination and discipline. (Even Kobe doesn't eat well on the road..)

I also think Splitter did a good job preparing for the season. Staying in SA and working out with Duncan and Manu is an encouraging sign. If he really has cardio problems I think starting him off with 22-24 consistent minutes well do him wonders.

Splitter is an Euroleague MVP right? He doesn't have to be perfect but as long as he has the heart and the discipline of Euroleague MVP he'll do more right then wrong.

[ChumpDumper]

Splitter is an Euroleague MVP right?Oh shit, here we go....

[Mel_13]

This logic is absolutely crazy to me, but I guess we just disagree. Saying "he might sprain an ankle if you play him more minutes because there is more risk" doesn't cut it for me. By that logic, no one on any team should play more than 25-30 because they all run the risk. Spurs don't have some special players that need to be babied when no one else in the league really has that issue.

It would appear that I've failed to make my point. I can tell you that the summary in the post quoted above is absolutely not the point I intended to get across, and I don't see the value in rehashing it once again.

I'll just look forward to the next discussion on the next topic.

:toast

[Obstructed_View]

Pop said he felt no need to repeat himself or is that a popoligist making an excuse for him?

Pop didn't say that. That's damage control by Pop lackeys at the paper.