Why are athiests so hated in the USA?

[101A]

So why go to the trouble to create earth, complete with pain and suffering?

Companionship

[clambake]

universal salvation. lol

love the way this story gets upgraded through time.

[Blake]

don't you look forward to mingling with your taliban brothers?

Could you imagine moving in next door to and being neighbors with Charles Manson for eternity

[redzero]

Yes.

Then ultimately it is he who decides to send people to hell, right?

[redzero]

Companionship

For?

I never understood why a perfect being would create anything in the first place. I never understood why a perfect being would create humans and care about whether they love it or not. Seems insecure to me.

[Blake]

Companionship

He could have had us as companions in heaven.

Why earth?

[Borat Sagyidev]

I think it's interesting how so many Christians have their own view of what God and Jesus is, and at many time all pushing that moral line towards justifying killing and immoral practice.


I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.

Mohandas Gandhi

[clambake]

For?

I never understood why a perfect being would create anything in the first place. I never understood why a perfect being would create humans and care about whether they love it or not. Seems insecure to me.

he likes to judge.

[JoeChalupa]

I never push my beliefs on anyone and one should not question God.

[redzero]

one should not question God

Yeah, following something without questioning it seems like a smart idea.

[clambake]

I never push my beliefs on anyone and one should not question God.

why are you pushing your belief that i should not question god?

[Blake]

I never push my beliefs on anyone and one should not question God.

Can I question you about God?

[JoeChalupa]

why are you pushing your belief that i should not question god?

:lol damnit

[JoeChalupa]

Can I question you about God?

:bang Lettuce pray

[clambake]

:lol damnit

:lol

[101A]

I never push my beliefs on anyone and one should not question God.

"Question everything; keep what is good" [1 Thes . 5.21]

[Blake]

:bang Lettuce pray

If we are to pray that Gods will be done, then why bother praying?

[Blake]

"Question everything; keep what is good" [1 Thes . 5.21]

If we are all going to end up in heaven any way, why didn't God skip us on ahead past the earth part?

[DarkReign]

Ironic this.

I am religious, go to church every week; same one for 6 years.

Have NO friends from Church.

The majority of my friends are Atheists/Humanists or Agnostic.

We DO discuss religion regularly; we all respect each other's beliefs (as far as I know; they might very well mock me when not in my presence; but I don't think so). A couple have even shown up on Sunday morning to see what's going on....neither returned.

They are good people; generous with their time and possessions. I am a Christian, and I believe JC to be the savior of me and all of mankind. That said, MY God doesn't send MY friends to hell (nor DR, for that matter).

I honestly dont know many religious people, except my in-laws. Like I wrote in that post, that characterization was specific to the people I know.

I know youre believer but youre not like any believer I know IRL.

[Wild Cobra]

In your unbiased interpretation, where does the Bible say believers in other gods go when they die.

Book and verse, please.
My recall of passages in the Bible is pretty limited. I will say however that the English versions of the Bible are poorly translated, and slanted to give the ruling class authority over others. It takes some research to figure out what a passage actually means as you have to go the the original writings known.

[Wild Cobra]

He created hell, did he not? He made the rules, did he not?
God(s) didn't create anything. They formed what already existed.

[z0sa]

Awesome quote Zosa. I've paraphrased nearly the exact same words, but of my own beliefs. I was pretty sure that someone else had coined the idea first though. :) Nice to know who that is. I'll have to tuck this quote into my mental memory bank.

:toast

The way I see it personally, 10,000 generations have died before me. Wherever my father and grandparents went when they died, if anywhere, I will go as well, along with every other human.

Perhaps one day I will see you there, brothers and sisters :hat

[Winehole23]

John 3:16 clear as day states the contempt that God has for the non-believer.Where does Christianity get converts?

[mouse]

Can I question you about God?

I thought you already had all the answers?

[Blake]

My recall of passages in the Bible is pretty limited. I will say however that the English versions of the Bible are poorly translated, and slanted to give the ruling class authority over others. It takes some research to figure out what a passage actually means as you have to go the the original writings known.

So you can't back up your claim.

Shocking.

[Blake]

God(s) didn't create anything. They formed what already existed.

Where are you getting this from

[Blake]

Where does Christianity get converts?

Crusades for one.

Is there a point to this left field question

[Winehole23]

Is there a point to this left field question ?You said God hates the ungodly. I pointed out-- too indirectly and subtly for you, granted -- that Christianity draws new members from the ranks of sinners, of which the godless are a subset. The Gospel wasn't designed for the righteous.

[Winehole23]

Crusades for one.Eight centuries ago, sure.

[rascal]

If we are all going to end up in heaven any way, why didn't God skip us on ahead past the earth part?


You have much to learn living a life on Earth.

[Blake]

You said God hates the ungodly. I pointed out-- too indirectly and subtly for you, granted -- that Christianity draws new members from the ranks of sinners, of which the godless are a subset. The Gospel wasn't designed for the righteous.

According to mainstream Christianity, who is hell designed for?

[Winehole23]

I'm not going to feed your persecution fantasy, Blake. Was there a point in there?

[Blake]

Eight centuries ago, sure.

So Bible God really isn't the same God through the ages.

I didn't think so.

[Winehole23]

Unlike you, I'm not an expert on God.

[Winehole23]

but the obvious answer is that church and society have changed in the meantime. putting it all down to god only shows your bias.

[Blake]

what's mainstream christianity?

Protestants and Catholics.

[Blake]

Unlike you, I'm not an expert on God.

We are talking about Bible God, are we not?

I do fancy myself as a bible expert, but that's irrelevant.

[clambake]

but the obvious answer is that church and society have changed in the meantime. putting it all down to god only shows your bias.

its been about man since the beginning.

[Winehole23]

According to mainstream Christianity, who is hell designed for?well why don't you tell us, since you're such an expert on Christian doctrine? be textually specific, if you can.

[Blake]

but the obvious answer is that church and society have changed in the meantime. putting it all down to god only shows your bias.

Again, is there a discussion point to you measuring me up or am I wasting time answering you.

[Winehole23]

crusades? 800 years ago? "Bible God" allegedly changing since then?

please catch up

[Winehole23]

We are talking about Bible God, are we not?you're the one who's hung up on God. the topic is the unpopularity of atheism

[Blake]

well why don't you tell us, since you're such an expert on Christian doctrine? be textually specific, if you can.

Tell you what?

Please get to whatever point you are trying to make.

[rascal]

Its the complete lack of respect they showed. Until that day, I had never once, never even hinted at my stance on the subject besides being faithless.

I guess they mistook my silence as as a sort of opening for "enlightenment".

Lesson learned: Make sure those close to you know to never broach subjects on which you feel strongly about. Your silence only sets them up for abject failure and will sour your relationship indefinitely.

Hopefully your son does not take after you in your faithlessness.

[101A]

you're the one who's hung up on God. the topic is the unpopularity of atheism

Blake is effectively demonstrating why believers (and everyone else) could be led to hate atheists. He's quite on point, actually.

Well done, Blake.

[101A]

Hopefully your son does not take after you in your faithlessness.

:bang

[101A]

^^^ @ rascal

[Blake]

crusades? 800 years ago? "Bible God" allegedly changing since then?

please catch up

So youre asking me if Bible God has changed over time?

The answer was yes.

Please keep up.

[Winehole23]

Tell you what?

Please get to whatever point you are trying to make.You asked a question about hell. You don't have to tell us what you meant by it. Clearly, you had no idea what you were driving at either.

[Blake]

Blake is effectively demonstrating why believers (and everyone else) could be led to hate atheists. He's quite on point, actually.

Well done, Blake.

You still haven't answered my very legitimate question regarding the belief system you yourself made up.....thus effectively demonstrating why it's hard to take Christians like you seriously.

Poorly played, 101A.

[Wild Cobra]

Where are you getting this from
From the beginning of the Torah. The word used for God is plural. the word used for create is formed. For all we know ET's could have terraformed Earth.

[Winehole23]

So youre asking me if Bible God has changed over time?

The answer was yes.

Please keep up.there's a more obvious answer. time passed, people changed.

this isn't hard, but I can see you're having some difficulty following the conversation. you drinkin already?

[Wild Cobra]

So you can't back up your claim.

Shocking.
Show me where I'm wrong then. Besides, back up what? You ask where believers of other Gods go. I have never seen where that is addressed. Show me.

[Winehole23]

drunk with anger and resentment?

[vy65]

drunk with anger and resentment?

Ironic that he's exhibiting the same sort of resentment towards christians that christianity, as an ideology, exhibits.

/Nietzsche.

[Wild Cobra]

You still haven't answered my very legitimate question regarding the belief system you yourself made up.....thus effectively demonstrating why it's hard to take Christians like you seriously.

Poorly played, 101A.
Look up the word "faith."

[Wild Cobra]

there's a more obvious answer. time passed, people changed.

this isn't hard, but I can see you're having some difficulty following the conversation. you drinkin already?
Plus, if I remember correctly, it took several people (5?) to translate the old scriptures into the King James Bible. Bound to seem like 5 different Gods.

[Winehole23]

Ironic that he's exhibiting the same sort of resentment towards christians that christianity, as an ideology, exhibits. Blake hates the sinner and the sin. (The sin being in this case, Christianity)

[vy65]

^^ actually, seems like some lazy nihilism to me.

[Winehole23]

seems more like a drunken pout to me but the two aren't mutually exclusive

[101A]

You still haven't answered my very legitimate question regarding the belief system you yourself made up.....thus effectively demonstrating why it's hard to take Christians like you seriously.

Poorly played, 101A.


Winehole did, I followed the thread from there.

Why is God having us go through life on Earth, rather than just putting us in Heaven?

So we could exercise free will; If you love something, set it free; kind of idea.

But, honestly, I struggle with that mightily. Why does he "need" us when he is omnipotent, etc., etc... Very tough to answer that.

[Blake]

You asked a question about hell. You don't have to tell us what you meant by it. Clearly, you had no idea what you were driving at either.

You didn't answer the question.

Clearly you'd rather bitch about how mean I am to dem Christians.

[Winehole23]

I'm not sure I know what hell was designed for.

Do you? Again, some citations would be nice.

[Blake]

Winehole did, I followed the thread from there.

Why is God having us go through life on Earth, rather than just putting us in Heaven?

So we could exercise free will; If you love something, set it free; kind of idea.

But, honestly, I struggle with that mightily. Why does he "need" us when he is omnipotent, etc., etc... Very tough to answer that.

The implication of that being that free will is lost once you get to heaven.

[101A]

The implication of that being that free will is lost once you get to heaven.

Possibly. Or irrelevant.

For example: While being serviced, I retain the entirety of my free will, but inevitably my free will convinces me to continue doing exactly what it is I am doing.

[Blake]

I'm not sure I know what hell was designed for.

Do you? Again, some citations would be nice.

Hey, an honest answer! :tu


Revelation 21:8

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Thanks to John 3:16, the others mentioned here can still get into heaven.

Unbelievers have it the worst.

...new testament speaking

[Wild Cobra]

Revelation 21:8

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
I forget my chronology, but isn't that passage speaking about after the rapture?

Keep in mind, our normal death, and the end days, are not the same thing. By the time of the rapture, time is up for our souls to decide their path.

[Winehole23]

Hey, an honest answer! :tu



Thanks to John 3:16, the others mentioned here can still get into heaven.

Unbelievers have it the worst.

...new testament speakingyou could also say liars have it the worst, or murderers, but this is a quibble.

do you feel you've been unfairly deprived of your chances in the afterlife by Christian doctrine? :lol:toast

[DarrinS]

Religious zealots and militant athiests both share a false sense of superiority -- I hate both groups.

[Winehole23]

In Christianity the whole connection to divinity is through belief. Of course the importance of belief and the dangers of unbelief are going to be stressed. Semitic monotheism wasn't designed for modern, secular societies. I get it that people think its outmoded and dislike it.

[LnGrrrR]

Blake is effectively demonstrating why believers (and everyone else) could be led to hate atheists. He's quite on point, actually.

Well done, Blake.

One post after...


Hopefully your son does not take after you in your faithlessness.

:lol

[Winehole23]

Religious zealots and militant athiests both share a false sense of superiority -- I hate both groups.Perhaps precisely because you share the specified fault. Pots jeering at kettles and so forth.

[LnGrrrR]

So we could exercise free will; If you love something, set it free; kind of idea.

So wait, there's no free will in Heaven? :)

[LnGrrrR]

For example: While being serviced, I retain the entirety of my free will, but inevitably my free will convinces me to continue doing exactly what it is I am doing.

Funny you brought that up, because I think that is a fun line to explore when it comes to "free will". If God sets up something so that the choice you make would be known in advance, is it still free will? No clear-cut answer on that question, obviously.

Here's the kicker though... what if God told you, "Hey, here's the plan, next week, you'll go out and get a coffee, then meet up with your wife and have some great sex."

Now, if you didn't know about that in advance, you might have done it already of your own free will, no harm, no foul. But now that you know about it in advance, will you still freely choose the same actions, knowing they will occur? Or will you try to do something else?

I think there is a lack of "authenticity" to the idea of free will that you stated, for lack of a better word.

An analogy: Picture two universes. In this one, your wife and you live happily ever after for 50 years. In the other universe, your wife and you live happily ever after for 50 years as well, but she cheated on you once or twice without your knowledge.

In both cases, you would be equally as happy. But in the other universe, your happiness may not be as "authentic", because you are missing some key information.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

So youre asking me if Bible God has changed over time?

The answer was yes.

Please keep up.

What I want to know is how Christians pick and choose what tenants of Timothy, Romans, Leviticus and Deuteronomy to follow.

[Winehole23]

from what I've seen they follow their hearts more or less like everyone else.

how do you decide what you're gonna do?

[Winehole23]

doctrinal consistency and rigor aren't everything. people got lives.

[Winehole23]

the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath

[FuzzyLumpkins]

from what I've seen they follow their hearts more or less like everyone else.

how do you decide what you're gonna do?

Its quite easy. If its obviously full of shit and inconsistent then its obviously full of shit and inconsistent. Whats more important is what I do not do: just hold on to the parts of the inconsistent and obviously full of shit that I like and hold them to be true.

[Blake]

Possibly. Or irrelevant.

For example: While being serviced, I retain the entirety of my free will, but inevitably my free will convinces me to continue doing exactly what it is I am doing.

Serviced?

No idea what you are saying here.

[Winehole23]

btw Blake, I see the part about a fiery lake and a second death in Rev. 21 and condemnation in John 3, but nothing at all about hell. Where is hell mentioned in the NT?

[Winehole23]

Whats more important is what I do not do: just hold on to the parts of the inconsistent and obviously full of shit that I like and hold them to be true.which again, is obviously peculiar to Christians

(eye roll)

[vy65]

The tendency to particularize a more or less "universal" negative human trait to one's enemies is quite strong in this thread.

[Winehole23]

bread and butter of the daily banter, tbh

[101A]

Serviced?

No idea what you are saying here.

Seriously?

Starts with a "B".

[Wild Cobra]

Seriously?

Starts with a "B".
Second part "J"?

[101A]

NOT gonna spell it out.

[Winehole23]

apparently, you had to

[LnGrrrR]

apparently, you had to

I think he meant literally, as in, the whole word.

[Blake]

btw Blake, I see the part about a fiery lake and a second death in Rev. 21 and condemnation in John 3, but nothing at all about hell. Where is hell mentioned in the NT?

Kjv has it mentioned in Matthew 10:28.

Fwiw, King James among others had a way of lumping "sheol", "hades", and "gehenna" in as the same word: "hell".

[Winehole23]

thanks. why are you so fixated on hell?

[Blake]

I forget my chronology, but isn't that passage speaking about after the rapture?

Keep in mind, our normal death, and the end days, are not the same thing. By the time of the rapture, time is up for our souls to decide their path.

Which would mean that everyone "left behind" is s.o.l?

[Winehole23]

it's unfair to unbelievers to be sure, but what do the unbelieving ever have to gain or lose from something they don't believe in?

[Blake]

thanks. why are you so fixated on hell?

I find peoples' theories of an after-life fascinating.

[LnGrrrR]

it's unfair to unbelievers to be sure, but what do the unbelieving ever have to gain or lose from something they don't believe in?

I think what Blake is getting at is that the idea of Hell is inherently immoral, if we assume

1) Hell exists and is horrible and
2) The only way to get to Heaven is to believe

One could argue that there should be criteria which rested upon the intrinsic goodness of an individual, rather than whether they believe in a certain deity or not.

(There's also somewhat tangent arguments about the morality of permanently punishing a person based on a finite amount of time.)

[Blake]

it's unfair to unbelievers to be sure, but what do the unbelieving ever have to gain or lose from something they don't believe in?

Biblically speaking, unbelievers have paradise to lose.

Worse than that, some would say they will be eternally tortured.

[Winehole23]

sheol is "the grave"

gehenna is a place of sacrifice, an actual geographical location

hades is interchangeable with sheol in the NT

[Winehole23]

Biblically speaking, unbelievers have paradise to lose.

Worse than that, some would say they will be eternally tortured.lol some would say. you won't get off that hobby horse.

[vy65]

I think what Blake is getting at is that the idea of Hell is inherently immoral, if we assume

1) Hell exists and is horrible and
2) The only way to get to Heaven is to believe

One could argue that there should be criteria which rested upon the intrinsic goodness of an individual, rather than whether they believe in a certain deity or not.

(There's also somewhat tangent arguments about the morality of permanently punishing a person based on a finite amount of time.)

Meh. I don't see what's inherently immoral about a notion of justice -- which is ostensibly all hell is about.

As for the intrinsic goodness business, my understanding of christian beliefs is that faith and the goodness of a person cannot be divorced. Whether they can or not seems to be a matter of religious dogma.

And fwiw ...

"The latest round of revisionism was touched off last summer by a surprising editorial in La Civiltà Cattolica, an influential Jesuit magazine with close ties to the Vatican. Hell, the magazine declared, "is not a 'place' but a 'state,' a person's 'state of being,' in which a person suffers from the deprivation of God." A few days later, Pope John Paul II told an audience at the Vatican that "rather than a place, hell indicates the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God." To describe this Godforsaken condition, the pontiff said, the Bible "uses a symbolical language" that "figuratively portrays in a 'pool of fire' those who exclude themselves from the book of life, thus meeting with a 'second death.'"

http://www.apocalypsesoon.org/xfile-45.html

[101A]

One could argue that there should be criteria which rested upon the intrinsic goodness of an individual, rather than whether they believe in a certain deity or not.


You're right, but for the purposes of this discussion, the "one" would be arguing with God.

Good luck with that.

Unless your point is that "well, since Hell is illogical, it must not exist, therefore God does not exist, and you all are idiots".

Which, again, is a fine illustration, or answer to the OP.

[Winehole23]

I think what Blake is getting at is that the idea of Hell is inherently immoral, if we assume

1) Hell exists and is horrible and
2) The only way to get to Heaven is to believe

One could argue that there should be criteria which rested upon the intrinsic goodness of an individual, rather than whether they believe in a certain deity or not.

(There's also somewhat tangent arguments about the morality of permanently punishing a person based on a finite amount of time.)If you want to say idealistic ethics are more reasonable, more ethical and more self-consistent, fine. I do wonder why Blake can't seem to say it for himself...

[Blake]

Seriously?

Starts with a "B".

In this forum I have to ask.

Again, if heaven is a place with free will, then why did he bother with earth?

Why would he make his new companions suffer like this?

[Winehole23]

I find peoples' theories of an after-life fascinating.seems like you'd have a little more to say about them if that was true

[Winehole23]

In this forum I have to ask.

Again, if heaven is a place with free will, then why did he bother with earth?

Why would he make his new companions suffer like this?mysterious, isn't it?

[LnGrrrR]

Meh. I don't see what's inherently immoral about a notion of justice -- which is ostensibly all hell is about.

Depends on the version of Hell you're referring to. :) You could say it's unjust to punish someone merely for lack of belief if they were morally upstanding in all other ways.


As for the intrinsic goodness business, my understanding of christian beliefs is that faith and the goodness of a person cannot be divorced. Whether they can or not seems to be a matter of religious dogma.

I'm sure you can see how that idea might be a little controversial. :)


And fwiw ...

"The latest round of revisionism was touched off last summer by a surprising editorial in La Civiltà Cattolica, an influential Jesuit magazine with close ties to the Vatican. Hell, the magazine declared, "is not a 'place' but a 'state,' a person's 'state of being,' in which a person suffers from the deprivation of God." A few days later, Pope John Paul II told an audience at the Vatican that "rather than a place, hell indicates the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God." To describe this Godforsaken condition, the pontiff said, the Bible "uses a symbolical language" that "figuratively portrays in a 'pool of fire' those who exclude themselves from the book of life, thus meeting with a 'second death.'"

http://www.apocalypsesoon.org/xfile-45.html

Interesting. Thanks for that info.

[LnGrrrR]

You're right, but for the purposes of this discussion, the "one" would be arguing with God.

Good luck with that.

I seem to remember quite a few Biblical characters arguing with God, actually. :)

Plus, people are arguing about the "rightness" of sending people to Hell for lack of belief. You could say, "Well it's God's party and he determines the criteria", but that's a different argument.

[vy65]

Fair points.

I guess the larger issue I have is this: I don't know who's more stupid - Christians who take every word of the bible literally - or "atheists" (for lack of a better word) who take issue with the bible's "logic" because they read the bible literally.

[LnGrrrR]

I guess the larger issue I have is this: I don't know who's more stupid - Christians who take every word of the bible literally - or "atheists" (for lack of a better word) who take issue with the bible's "logic" because they read the bible literally.

I believe that atheists only take issue with literal bible logic because of two reasons:

1) Some Christians take the Bible literally, which most atheists think is intellectually lacking

2) A subset of these Christians try to use their beliefs to push some sort of policy that affect atheists/other religions

Of course, there are some atheists who just want to be dicks too. :)

[vy65]

I believe that atheists only take issue with literal bible logic because of two reasons:

1) Some Christians take the Bible literally, which most atheists think is intellectually lacking

2) A subset of these Christians try to use their beliefs to push some sort of policy that affect atheists/other religions

Of course, there are some atheists who just want to be dicks too. :)

Some - but then you have people like Blake who seems to be having trouble with the concept or reality of hell.

[101A]

In this forum I have to ask.

Again, if heaven is a place with free will, then why did he bother with earth?

Why would he make his new companions suffer like this?

What's annoying about your questions are that they are some of the toughest questions I ask myself. "Why do I believe" - because, of course, I do question.

Basically, it is this: We cannot see the goodness of God if we don't also experience sin/Satan/evil. For example, my kids have NO idea how tough the world is, or how easy I have made it for them to this point in their teenage lives. Good sized house, phones, cars when old enough - they have lived a 1%'s life. It is trite when I say it, so I DO have problems thinking of an all loving, all caring God saying it, but "they don't appreciate it".

Could also just be a bar bet with Beelzebub, tbh.

[Winehole23]

I don't know who's more stupid - Christians who take every word of the bible literally - or "atheists" (for lack of a better word) who take issue with the bible's "logic" because they read the bible literally.and then attack believers for being inconsistent with their gloss of it.

[Winehole23]

Could also just be a bar bet with Beelzebub, tbh.Book of Job starts roughly that way...

[clambake]

i've never had a problem with the bible's logic.

[Blake]

gehenna is a place of sacrifice, an actual geographical location

hades is interchangeable with sheol in the NT

Gehenna is the hell in matthew 10:28.

Also mentioned somewhere in Mark, iirc.

[LnGrrrR]

Basically, it is this: We cannot see the goodness of God if we don't also experience sin/Satan/evil. For example, my kids have NO idea how tough the world is, or how easy I have made it for them to this point in their teenage lives. Good sized house, phones, cars when old enough - they have lived a 1%'s life. It is trite when I say it, so I DO have problems thinking of an all loving, all caring God saying it, but "they don't appreciate it".

Becoming a father has given me a more nuanced outlook at all this, I think. Before, I would throw out the whole "Why even create us with the capacity for sin, if he doesn't want us to sin?" But I've come to see some of those biblical passages as God being father, allowing sin but hoping we won't.

So then, Heaven doesn't become a "do anything you want" place, but more a state of being, in which you have no desire to sin. (Akin to the free will argument we were discussing earlier.) It parallels with other religions which talk about being at peace with oneself.

That's the biggest problem I have with Hell, is that if a soul is eternal, why would he be judged on the relatively miniscule portion of his life in which he had a body to go along with it? I would think a "just" God would provide some form of reincarnation to have another crack at it. Most fathers I know, even when their children fail, continually give them chances to redeem themselves.

[101A]

Becoming a father has given me a more nuanced outlook at all this, I think. Before, I would throw out the whole "Why even create us with the capacity for sin, if he doesn't want us to sin?" But I've come to see some of those biblical passages as God being father, allowing sin but hoping we won't.

So then, Heaven doesn't become a "do anything you want" place, but more a state of being, in which you have no desire to sin. (Akin to the free will argument we were discussing earlier.) It parallels with other religions which talk about being at peace with oneself.

That's the biggest problem I have with Hell, is that if a soul is eternal, why would he be judged on the relatively miniscule portion of his life in which he had a body to go along with it? I would think a "just" God would provide some form of reincarnation to have another crack at it. Most fathers I know, even when their children fail, continually give them chances to redeem themselves.

Prodigal son anyone? Why would Jesus use that parable if, in fact, God would shut the door in the face of his boy, and NOT slaughtered the calf?

I think Hell exists, but people have to choose it; they know what they are doing, they understand the ramifications, but STILL push away from God. Plenty of Christians, if not most, have real problems with my belief here; my God is MUCH more lenient, understanding, just and forgiving than the one they subscribe to. I can't believe that a "just" God would condemn some poor farmer's kid in the China who gets run over by an ox one day - and had never heard the name "Jesus". "Well, you didn't accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior. Sorry....B'Bye".

[Blake]

What's annoying about your questions are that they are some of the toughest questions I ask myself. "Why do I believe" - because, of course, I do question.

Right, when I ask those questions to myself, I don't like the answers.

When I ask others these tough questions, they get pissed and take them as fighting words.


Basically, it is this: We cannot see the goodness of God if we don't also experience sin/Satan/evil. For example, my kids have NO idea how tough the world is, or how easy I have made it for them to this point in their teenage lives. Good sized house, phones, cars when old enough - they have lived a 1%'s life. It is trite when I say it, so I DO have problems thinking of an all loving, all caring God saying it, but "they don't appreciate it".

Could also just be a bar bet with Beelzebub, tbh.

The implication there being that God wanted man to sin.

[LnGrrrR]

I think Hell exists, but people have to choose it; they know what they are doing, they understand the ramifications, but STILL push away from God.

Here's where I disagree. I don't think one "chooses" to have faith; I think it occurs or it doesn't. Even for people who go from faith to faithlessness, or vice versa, it's not usually a choice but an awakening, a realization.

I liken it to your preference for certain foods. Say you didn't like macaroni and cheese. Could you will yourself to like it? If you ate it for weeks on end, and kept telling yourself it was delicious, would you start to believe it? I doubt it.


Plenty of Christians, if not most, have real problems with my belief here; my God is MUCH more lenient, understanding, just and forgiving than the one they subscribe to. I can't believe that a "just" God would condemn some poor farmer's kid in the China who gets run over by an ox one day - and had never heard the name "Jesus". "Well, you didn't accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior. Sorry....B'Bye".

You should try talking to Calvinists some day... now THAT'S strict...

[LnGrrrR]

The implication there being that God wanted man to sin.

I disagree. God most liekly doesn't want man to sin, but if he makes it easy, then it's a worthless task. It's a challenge in order to test the mettle of individuals. Why he tests some, who knows. (Again, I'm going by the idea that God is rational, and not the crazy jealous OT God. :)

[Blake]

I think what Blake is getting at is that the idea of Hell is inherently immoral, if we assume

1) Hell exists and is horrible and
2) The only way to get to Heaven is to believe

One could argue that there should be criteria which rested upon the intrinsic goodness of an individual, rather than whether they believe in a certain deity or not.

(There's also somewhat tangent arguments about the morality of permanently punishing a person based on a finite amount of time.)

I'm not sure right now what posts of mine we are talking about, but yes, I've gotten to that before.

Christian doctrine implies that good people will go to hell.

If true, God's an asshole.

[101A]

Right, when I ask those questions to myself, I don't like the answers.

When I ask others these tough questions, they get pissed and take them as fighting words.



The implication there being that God wanted man to sin.

At the very least, knew we would.

[Blake]

I disagree. God most liekly doesn't want man to sin, but if he makes it easy, then it's a worthless task. It's a challenge in order to test the mettle of individuals. Why he tests some, who knows. (Again, I'm going by the idea that God is rational, and not the crazy jealous OT God. :)

I agree.

101A was implying that God wants us to see evil because he (101A) wants his kids to see how bad some others have it.

[101A]

Here's where I disagree. I don't think one "chooses" to have faith; I think it occurs or it doesn't. Even for people who go from faith to faithlessness, or vice versa, it's not usually a choice but an awakening, a realization.

I guess you missed my (much) earlier post where I stated my belief that the choice could be made AFTER corporal death; with all options laid plainly in front of the (quite shocked non-believer).


I liken it to your preference for certain foods. Say you didn't like macaroni and cheese. Could you will yourself to like it? If you ate it for weeks on end, and kept telling yourself it was delicious, would you start to believe it? I doubt it.

I have done that exact thing with Marzipan.




You should try talking to Calvinists some day... now THAT'S strict...

Southern Baptists are my limit.:toast

[101A]

Christian doctrine implies that good people will go to hell.

They don't think so....some real tortured sermons I've heard over the years....


If true, God's an asshole.

I don't think it is, and he's not.

[Blake]

At the very least, knew we would.

Pre-destination.

If you could see the future and saw that your future kid was going to be a murderer whose destiny was going to be life in prison, would you still try to conceive the kid?

Pre-destination also can be an argument against the existence of free will.

[101A]

I agree.

101A was implying that God wants us to see evil because he (101A) wants his kids to see how bad some others have it.

Twisting my words; It's not that I want my dids to see how tough it is for others, it's that my kids cannot see how good they have it - it's nearly impossible for them to do so; perspective is powerful. I don't have the means, or desire, however to support them indefinitely, so at some point they WILL experience a struggle.

[101A]

If you could see the future and saw that your future kid was going to be a murderer whose destiny was going to be life in prison, would you still try to conceive the kid?


...conceiving kids is pretty fun...

[101A]

Pre-destination.

If you could see the future and saw that your future kid was going to be a murderer whose destiny was going to be life in prison, would you still try to conceive the kid?

Pre-destination also can be an argument against the existence of free will.

I never said "predestination". Your word. I just said that the all knowing creator, in turning us loose in a world run by Satan probably figured we'd do some bad stuff.

[Blake]

They don't think so....some real tortured sermons I've heard over the years....

I've heard countless sermons of preachers talking about good people going to hell.


I don't think it is, and he's not.

If god is judging you based on his inferiority complex instead of your works, that's absolutely an asshole move.

[Blake]

I never said "predestination". Your word. I just said that the all knowing creator, in turning us loose in a world run by Satan probably figured we'd do some bad stuff.

I'm saying you defined pre-destination.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

which again, is obviously peculiar to Christians

(eye roll)

What difference does it make whether or not other groups do that too other than to point out that most people are full of shit and lie as a matter of course?

You do not deny the position just state that other groups do it too as if that is some sort of justification.

[Blake]

Twisting my words; It's not that I want my dids to see how tough it is for others, it's that my kids cannot see how good they have it - it's nearly impossible for them to do so; perspective is powerful. I don't have the means, or desire, however to support them indefinitely, so at some point they WILL experience a struggle.

Then I fail to see your comparison since God does have the means for indefinite support.

No need for earth.

[Blake]

lol some would say. you won't get off that hobby horse.

lol Christian doctrine would say

lol your hobby is talking about me

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I disagree. God most liekly doesn't want man to sin, but if he makes it easy, then it's a worthless task. It's a challenge in order to test the mettle of individuals. Why he tests some, who knows. (Again, I'm going by the idea that God is rational, and not the crazy jealous OT God. :)

I personally find the notion that God 'chooses' to be anthropocentric claptrap just a shade better than the Greeks and ancient hebrews attributing emotional responses to their gods.

[Blake]

Unless your point is that "well, since Hell is illogical, it must not exist, therefore God does not exist, and you all are idiots".

The doctrine of Christian salvation is illogical, therefore the Bible is crap. Zealots are idiots.

[Blake]

seems like you'd have a little more to say about them if that was true



Since you don't know me, I can take this to mean you think you always gab to the board about all the things/ people in life that fascinate you?

Doubtful, imo.

[Wild Cobra]

101...

What do you think of Christmas, since it's a hijacked Pagan holiday, we practice adorning a tree with tinsel, which is specifically prohibited by Jehovah?

[Blake]

Fair points.

I guess the larger issue I have is this: I don't know who's more stupid - Christians who take every word of the bible literally - or "atheists" (for lack of a better word) who take issue with the bible's "logic" because they read the bible literally.

Which parts of the Bible should a Christian take literally?

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

God most liekly doesn't want man to sin
The bible advocates slavery and beating your children with rods, if god has anything to do with that book he really isn't averse to sin at all.

[vy65]

the parts about slaves, and being eaten by whales, and 7 headed dragons ...

do you also think a rabbit and a turtle really had a race several thousand years ago?

[Blake]

the parts about slaves, and being eaten by whales, and 7 headed dragons ...

do you also think a rabbit and a turtle really had a race several thousand years ago?


Which parts of the Bible should a Christian take literally?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

the parts about slaves, and being eaten by whales, and 7 headed dragons ...

do you also think a rabbit and a turtle really had a race several thousand years ago?

But John 3:16, that part you take at face value right because ghost man in the sky agreeing with a priest class's after the fact dictation of law and subsequent leniency for agreeing as well just makes so much sense.

We'll ignore Paul's specific edicts concerning women and slaves but we will choose his other edicts that jive with what we want to do or that will benefit us.

The Bible is apparently Choose Your Own Adventure now.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

It's funny how Christians used the bible to justify slavery, then after the country woke and realized that slavery was wrong, they say that the part about slavery "Isn't meant to be taken literally."

[vy65]

But John 3:16, that part you take at face value right because ghost man in the sky agreeing with a priest class's after the fact dictation of law and subsequent leniency for agreeing as well just makes so much sense.

We'll ignore Paul's specific edicts concerning women and slaves but we will choose his other edicts that jive with what we want to do or that will benefit us.

The Bible is apparently Choose Your Own Adventure now.

huh?

[vy65]

Where did I say a Christian should take any of it literally? You're the one obsessed with whether burning lakes are real or not.

[Blake]

We'll ignore Paul's specific edicts concerning women and slaves but we will choose his other edicts that jive with what we want to do or that will benefit us.

The Bible is apparently Choose Your Own Adventure now.

Paul: best troll job ever

[redzero]

So we could exercise free will; If you love something, set it free; kind of idea.

Why couldn't free will be exercised in heaven? Or is there no free will in heaven?

[redzero]

mysterious, isn't it?

I prefer the term "illogical."

[Blake]

Where did I say a Christian should take any of it literally? You're the one obsessed with whether burning lakes are real or not.

So we agree that none of the Bible should be taken literally.
It wasn't clear in your original post.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Where did I say a Christian should take any of it literally? You're the one obsessed with whether burning lakes are real or not.

Hey if I am reading Job or Kings then fine I can go with that. Its a story to take meaning from. What I am talking about are the books of edicts like most of what Paul wrote or all the declaratives of the Levites and such.

Paul didn't say that women were a lake of fire he said in no uncertain terms that women were subordinate of men. How are we supposed to take a declarative like that figuratively?

Now thanks in no small part to the migration of southern evangelicals to the GOP in the late 1960s, we have this new brand of Christianity that you get in the US that picks and chooses to the point of absurdity.

If you don't take the Bible literally more power to you but that does not mitigate those that do on a case by case basis. Modern US Christianity is based on the ability to do so.

[vy65]

I'd like to see some scripture dictating that it is to be taken literally. If not, then we're just spinning our wheels about how best to interpret it.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Where did I say a Christian should take any of it literally? You're the one obsessed with whether burning lakes are real or not.

I am not obsessed. Its a blatant falsehood. Whats important though is that the ten commandments came from a burning bush. You take that figuratively too?

As soon as you admit that Moses did not in fact go to the top of Mount Sinai and get the commandments from said Bush then you debase the authority of said commandments.

[vy65]

^ That was a response for Blake, not you.

[Blake]

I'd like to see some scripture dictating that it is to be taken literally. If not, then we're just spinning our wheels about how best to interpret it.

So you are asking for literal scripture that says scripture should be taken literally.

[vy65]

So you are asking for literal scripture that says scripture should be taken literally.

Dunno what you mean by literal scripture - but yeah - I'd like book/verse.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I'd like to see some scripture dictating that it is to be taken literally. If not, then we're just spinning our wheels about how best to interpret it.


17 The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching. 18 For Scripture says, “Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain,”[a] and “The worker deserves his wages.” 19 Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses. 20 But those elders who are sinning you are to reprove before everyone, so that the others may take warning. 21 [b]I charge you, in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels, to keep these instructions without partiality, and to do nothing out of favoritism.


But you, man of God, flee from all this, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance and gentleness. 12 Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses. 13 In the sight of God, who gives life to everything, and of Christ Jesus, who while testifying before Pontius Pilate made the good confession, I charge you 14 to keep this command without spot or blame until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which God will bring about in his own time—God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.

17 Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. 18 Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share. 19 In this way they will lay up treasure for themselves as a firm foundation for the coming age, so that they may take hold of the life that is truly life.

20 Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge, 21 which some have professed and in so doing have departed from the faith.

Grace be with you all.

There are other passages where he talks about how scripture is directly from God etc. Its been well documented that they didn't like the half way pickers and choosers back then.

That took about 5 mins to find theres much much more and the OT guys were much less forgiving.

[vy65]

None of those passages say that the bible is to interpreted literally. Show me what else you got.

Scripture being directly from god =|= treating the words literally.

The old rabbis didn't seem to have a problem treating the torah as something to be interpreted -- not blindly followed.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

None of those passages say that the bible is to interpreted literally. Show me what else you got.

Scripture being directly from god =|= treating the words literally.

The old rabbis didn't seem to have a problem treating the torah as something to be interpreted -- not blindly followed.

Some proof for the latter and normally when I am told that 'in the name of God that I am to keep to something without blemish' that means to not ad lib.

Quite frankly, how do you figuratively interpret shit like:


1 A woman[a] should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man;[b] she must be quiet.

without blemish?

[Blake]

Dunno what you mean by literal scripture - but yeah - I'd like book/verse.

Do you want it for curiosity or validation?

[LnGrrrR]

I guess you missed my (much) earlier post where I stated my belief that the choice could be made AFTER corporal death; with all options laid plainly in front of the (quite shocked non-believer).

I believe I did. Thanks for the correction. :)


I have done that exact thing with Marzipan.

Interesting. Might I ask why? Does your wife have an unhealthy addiction to it?

And 101A, you forgot to answer my earlier question... if God said to you you'd be getting serviced an hour from now, would you try to prove him wrong? :)

[vy65]

Some proof for the latter and normally when I am told that 'in the name of God that I am to keep to something without blemish' that means to not ad lib.

You're ignoring the word "this" in that passage - with "this" referring to the following: But you, man of God, flee from all this, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance and gentleness. 12 Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses.


Quite frankly, how do you figuratively interpret shit like:



without blemish?

You're reading it wrong - and I personally am ok with gender roles.

[vy65]

Do you want it for curiosity or validation?

Both, I guess. Does it matter?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

You're ignoring the word "this" in that passage - with "this" referring to the following: But you, man of God, flee from all this, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance and gentleness. 12 Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses.



You're reading it wrong - and I personally am ok with gender roles.

So says you 'this' just refers to that which preceded it does not denote a particular quantity. As for the latter I did not read it in any way other than what was posted. Glad to know that to you 'gender role' denotes submission.

[Blake]

Both, I guess. Does it matter?

So a bible verse telling you that the bible is legit would do it for you?

[vy65]

So says you 'this' just refers to that which preceded it does not denote a particular quantity. As for the latter I did not read it in any way other than what was posted. Glad to know that to you 'gender role' denotes submission.

What I quoted was the preceeding part - and - what part of any of that says one should take the bible literally?

And lol submission - are you keeping mental notes?

[vy65]

So a bible verse telling you that the bible is legit would do it for you?

No, why would it?

[vy65]

Fuzzy, are you familiar with the practice of pegging?

[Blake]

And 101A, you forgot to answer my earlier question... if God said to you you'd be getting serviced an hour from now, would you try to prove him wrong? :)

God claiming 101A's cock will crow?

Peter says thumbs up

[Blake]

No, why would it?

Then again, why ask for it?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

What I quoted was the preceeding part - and - what part of any of that says one should take the bible literally?

And lol submission - are you keeping mental notes?

The quote is the last paragraph of 2nd Timothy, the entire work was precedent.

the quote on gender roles, specifically outlines submission.

Heres some more and there is quite a bit when they talk about false prophets


I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them.


O Timothy, guard the deposit entrusted to you. Avoid the irreverent babble and contradictions of what is falsely called “knowledge,” for by professing it some have swerved from the faith. Grace be with you.


I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book,


For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.”

[rascal]

Right, when I ask those questions to myself, I don't like the answers.

When I ask others these tough questions, they get pissed and take them as fighting words.



The implication there being that God wanted man to sin.

No God did not want man to sin. If he created man incapable of sin he might as well created a robot. Free will makes man what he is.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Fuzzy, are you familiar with the practice of pegging?

Not through personal experience.

[vy65]

Then again, why ask for it?

I dunno, you brought it up.

[vy65]

Again, none of those quotes discuss what we're talking about. They're, like you said, about false prophets -- not how one should read the biblical text.

Would you be ok with a woman pegging you?

[rascal]

Why couldn't free will be exercised in heaven? Or is there no free will in heaven?

There is no evil in heaven so no desire to commit sin. It was cast out with Satan and his followers. Evil is not allowed to exist in Heaven. That is what makes Heaven, Heaven.

[Blake]

There is no evil in heaven so no desire to commit sin. It was cast out with Satan and his followers. Evil is not allowed to exist in Heaven. That is what makes Heaven, Heaven.

So the free will you had on earth to sin has been stripped away.

[Blake]

I dunno, you brought it up.

Yah it was a dumb question, imo.

I figured you didn't really think your question through before asking.

[vy65]

Yah, I figured you didn't really think your question through before asking.

What question? Like I said, you brought all this up and when you were called out on it had nothing to back you up.

[rascal]

So the free will you had on earth to sin has been stripped away.

You are not thinking. You will no longer have any desire to sin. You will see the light and sin will no longer be an option. Evil is not allowed to exist in Heaven.

[Blake]

What question? Like I said, you brought all this up and when you were called out on it had nothing to back you up.

K, it was a dumb request.

Your request, not mine.

Keep up with your dumb requests, tbh.

[baseline bum]

You are not thinking. You will no longer have any desire to sin. You will see the light and sin will no longer be an option. Evil is not allowed to exist in Heaven.

So you won't be able to go out and get laid by that 20 year-old from the other thread in heaven? Sounds like hell tbh.

[vy65]

K, it was a dumb request.

Your request, not mine.

Keep up with your dumb requests, tbh.

What the fuck are you talking about?

[rascal]

So you won't be able to go out and get laid by that 20 year-old from the other thread in heaven? Sounds like hell tbh.

No sex in Heaven and you won't miss it. You won't have hormones or even sex organs, you will have a better body than what you have now, a body without pain, no need to eat, no need to sleep, a body that will not age, no flesh or blood as you know now, no mortal shell , you will still look the same and recognize others that you knew. Hard to comprehend because you are stuck in this world's thoughts.

[LnGrrrR]

No sex in Heaven and you won't miss it. You won't have hormones or even sex organs, you will have a better body than what you have now, a body without pain, no need to eat, no need to sleep, a body that will not age, no flesh or blood as you know now, no mortal shell , you will still look the same and recognize others that you knew. Hard to comprehend because you are stuck in this world's thoughts.

Sounds pretty boring to me.

[baseline bum]

An eternity without being able to get a blowjob? Sounds like a horrible nightmare.

[baseline bum]

What about widowers who remarry? Are they screwed unless it's Mormon heaven?

[rascal]

Sounds pretty boring to me.

You are stuck in this world's thoughts. So you cannot comprehend.
God will not create a place of boredom. Trust in the new body you will be given. Boredom exists on Earth.

[rascal]

What about widowers who remarry? Are they screwed unless it's Mormon heaven?

There is no marriage in Heaven. No one is tied to another in something like marriage. Of course many people who were married on Earth will hang together because they were family but there is no marriage ties, remember no sex.

[LnGrrrR]

You are stuck in this world's thoughts. So you cannot comprehend. God will not create a place of boredom. Trust in the new body you will be given. Boredom exists on Earth.

Sounds like he's going to greatly take away my capacity to enjoy things, or radically alter them. Boredom, desire, anger, restraint, all these things go into making us humans. The Heaven you depict seems akin to being a coma patient or a vegetable.

[rascal]

An eternity without being able to get a blowjob? Sounds like a horrible nightmare.

Still thinking inside the box that you only know. You have much to learn.

[baseline bum]

You are stuck in this world's thoughts. So you cannot comprehend.
God will not create a place of boredom. Trust in the new body you will be given. Boredom exists on Earth.

It doesn't sound like a place of boredom; it sounds like one of horror tbh.

[baseline bum]

Do they have beer in heaven? So I can't get laid, but can I at least get a Ruination IPA?

[rascal]

Sounds like he's going to greatly take away my capacity to enjoy things, or radically alter them. Boredom, desire, anger, restraint, all these things go into making us humans. The Heaven you depict seems akin to being a coma patient or a vegetable.

Many of the things you list are negative qualities of Life on Earth.
You will enjoy many things. Who knows there will be other things to enjoy that we cannot even imagine. these things we will learn about when we get there.

[baseline bum]

So do you just sit around and watch people do fun shit?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Still thinking inside the box that you only know. You have much to learn.

Sure we all do but not by listening to made up nonsense about fantasy land. That you speak of things of a certainty just convinces me you are just regurgitating what you have been told or read and not something that they or you have experienced.

[clambake]

So do you just sit around and watch people do fun shit?

no, you'll have lots of work. the movie "its a wonderful life", which is just like the reality of the bible, means you'll have to earn your wings.

[ElNono]

Do they have beer in heaven? So I can't get laid, but can I at least get a Ruination IPA?

Do they have beer in Lord of the Rings? Srs question.

[LnGrrrR]

Many of the things you list are negative qualities of Life on Earth.

That's what life is. Dealing with negative things is what makes us human. I would even consider it an essential part of being human.


You will enjoy many things. Who knows there will be other things to enjoy that we cannot even imagine. these things we will learn about when we get there.

Maybe.

[ElNono]

You will enjoy many things. Who knows there will be other things to enjoy that we cannot even imagine. these things we will learn about when we get there.

I really, really enjoy having sex... are you sure that part is not negotiable?

[LnGrrrR]

Do they have beer in Lord of the Rings? Srs question.

Yes, but you have to call it ale.

[ElNono]

Does hell offer sex? Anybody has both contracts handy?

[ElNono]

Yes, but you have to call it ale.

wow, sign me up!

[ElNono]

So do you just sit around and watch people do fun shit?

Worked for The Matrix...

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Again, none of those quotes discuss what we're talking about. They're, like you said, about false prophets -- not how one should read the biblical text.

Would you be ok with a woman pegging you?

Hoping that I am a homophobe? I have had women desire all manner of sexual things including sticking a finger up my butt. i am okay with it as long it doesn't hurt, truth be told but I have never had a chick that wanted to peg meand I imagine that it would be at best uncomfortable so given the choice i would decline.

However, using the term 'okay' implies something more than choice and no i would not think less of myself if i got off to anal sex.

Thats besides the point. We are talkinga bout what Paul said was the role of women and that was very specifically to be submissive

Paul is saying to not divert from doctrine. We actually have had this discussion before and he says these teaching are doctrine. Thats the whole point of him laying out all those edicts.

Ive shown you where they say do not divert from doctrine and we have had discussions aobut what is doctrine and its the same thing: what they chose at the Council in Nice oh so long ago.

Its clear: do as I say, be faithful to the word and do not divert from it.

[Blake]

You are not thinking. You will no longer have any desire to sin. You will see the light and sin will no longer be an option. Evil is not allowed to exist in Heaven.

So there are strict rules in heaven that everyone is forced to comply with.

Please explain how one still has complete free will in that case, and then please explain why God didn't skip us all on ahead to heaven.

[baseline bum]

no, you'll have lots of work. the movie "its a wonderful life", which is just like the reality of the bible, means you'll have to earn your wings.

So the bible is just some shit to recruit a slave army?

[ElNono]

So the bible is just some shit to recruit a slave army?

Of zombies... since you have to be dead to get there...

Sounds like a cheap B movie, tbh

[baseline bum]

No beer, no sex, and endless bondage; how the fuck could hell be worse?

[101A]

I believe I did. Thanks for the correction. :)



Interesting. Might I ask why? Does your wife have an unhealthy addiction to it?

And 101A, you forgot to answer my earlier question... if God said to you you'd be getting serviced an hour from now, would you try to prove him wrong? :)

Marzipan: Had a German exchange student - it is their high end candy of choice - thus I get it as gifts quite often - very popular their - I searched my taste buds for the nuance I was missing...and found it.

2nd question: No

[Drachen]

Marzipan is good, I agree though, you have to get used to the taste.

[Blake]

What the fuck are you talking about?


I'd like to see some scripture dictating that it is to be taken literally.


Keep up with your dumb requests, tbh.

[Blake]

No sex in Heaven and you won't miss it. You won't have hormones or even sex organs, you will have a better body than what you have now, a body without pain, no need to eat, no need to sleep, a body that will not age, no flesh or blood as you know now, no mortal shell , you will still look the same and recognize others that you knew. Hard to comprehend because you are stuck in this world's thoughts.

sounds rather robotic, imo

[Blake]

You are stuck in this world's thoughts. So you cannot comprehend.
God will not create a place of boredom. Trust in the new body you will be given. Boredom exists on Earth.

then why did he create Earth?

[Blake]

Still thinking inside the box that you only know. You have much to learn.

For Christians, the Bible is the box.

If you are thinking outside the box, then you are just making shit up.

[vy65]

Which parts of the Bible should a Christian take literally?


Where did I say a Christian should take any of it literally? You're the one obsessed with whether burning lakes are real or not.

Again, what the fuck are you talking about?

[vy65]

Hoping that I am a homophobe? I have had women desire all manner of sexual things including sticking a finger up my butt. i am okay with it as long it doesn't hurt, truth be told but I have never had a chick that wanted to peg meand I imagine that it would be at best uncomfortable so given the choice i would decline.

However, using the term 'okay' implies something more than choice and no i would not think less of myself if i got off to anal sex.

Thats besides the point. We are talkinga bout what Paul said was the role of women and that was very specifically to be submissive

I lol'd at the anecdote. Thanks for that.

I wasn't assuming your homophobia or lack thereof. I was 1) assuming your a heterosexual male and 2) asking whether or not you would submit to an act of female sexual domination (e.g., pegging). Given your answer, it doesn't sound like you'd be down for taking one up the bum - so - you wouldn't be down for an act of female domination.

The second part of the scripture you quoted is: "I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man;[b] she must be quiet."

I'd argue (somewhat seriously) your dislike of pegging --> refusal to allow a woman to assume authority over you --> subordination of women.


Paul is saying to not divert from doctrine. We actually have had this discussion before and he says these teaching are doctrine. Thats the whole point of him laying out all those edicts.

Ive shown you where they say do not divert from doctrine and we have had discussions aobut what is doctrine and its the same thing: what they chose at the Council in Nice oh so long ago.

Its clear: do as I say, be faithful to the word and do not divert from it.

I disagree with your interpretation. We can leave it at that - or - we can have a more in-depth discussion of the text itself and what it means. I'm happy with either.

[Blake]

Again, what the fuck are you talking about?


I'd like to see some scripture dictating that it is to be taken literally. If not, then we're just spinning our wheels about how best to interpret it.


So you are asking for literal scripture that says scripture should be taken literally.


Dunno what you mean by literal scripture - but yeah - I'd like book/verse.

I don't know how much simpler I can make it for you to show you what you requested.

Should I bold the parts where you talk about what you would like to see?

[rascal]

So there are strict rules in heaven that everyone is forced to comply with.

Please explain how one still has complete free will in that case, and then please explain why God didn't skip us all on ahead to heaven.

You will have free will but evil will not exist where God is. I don't understand why that is so difficult for you.

Life is a learning experience . What good would it be to be given a free pass? You must prove your worth. Although some people like infants and innocent children who die young will get a so called free pass. Of course they are not infants in Heaven, they will be given grown bodies as if they lived full lives.

[rascal]

That's what life is. Dealing with negative things is what makes us human. I would even consider it an essential part of being human.




Yes dealing with negative things is what we do on Earth.
Dying is a game changer.

[vy65]

I'd like to see some scripture dictating that it is to be taken literally. If not, then we're just spinning our wheels about how best to interpret it.

^^ was for Fuzzy, not you. If you bothered reading, you'd understand that's what we were arguing about.

So for like the 8th time, what's your point?

[Blake]

http://www.sacornerstone.org/images/2012hghf_art.png

http://www.sacornerstone.org/difference/event/heavens-gate

anyone want to carpool?

[rascal]

So do you just sit around and watch people do fun shit?

No you will be active, learning and revisiting your life and making amends with the people you wronged and the people who wronged you will make amends with you. All which is not right on earth during our lifetimes will be righted, fairness will prevail and the just will be rewarded.

One of the first things that will happen is you will meet family and friends that have passed on, then your life review before God. Everything you have ever said or done has been recorded. there will be no denying anything as you watch it as it happens again in front of you. The high points(the good you have done for others) and low points(the bad you have done to others) will be reviewed. All things will be righted and lessons will be learned. This is what life on Earth is about, a learning experience to grow towards the goal of living in Heaven.

[Blake]

I'd like to see some scripture dictating that it is to be taken literally. If not, then we're just spinning our wheels about how best to interpret it.

^^ was for Fuzzy, not you. If you bothered reading, you'd understand that's what we were arguing about.

So for like the 8th time, what's your point?

I don't care who it was for.

I was asking you what the point of your request is.

You obviously have no point, so my conclusion is that it's a stupid request. Apparently there's nothing more to discuss about it. :tu

[vy65]

I don't care who it was for.

I was asking you what the point of your request is.

You obviously have no point, so my conclusion is that it's a stupid request. Apparently there's nothing more to discuss about it. :tu


I guess the larger issue I have is this: I don't know who's more stupid - Christians who take every word of the bible literally - or "atheists" (for lack of a better word) who take issue with the bible's "logic" because they read the bible literally.

Why don't you read? Honest question.

[Blake]

All which is not right on earth during our lifetimes will be righted, fairness will prevail and the just will be rewarded.

Unbelievers won't be rewarded. Murderers might be.

How is that fair?


One of the first things that will happen is you will meet family and friends that have passed on, then your life review before God. Everything you have ever said or done has been recorded. there will be no denying anything as you watch it as it happens again in front of you. The high points(the good you have done for others) and low points(the bad you have done to others) will be reviewed. All things will be righted and lessons will be learned. This is what life on Earth is about, a learning experience to grow towards the goal of living in Heaven.

Will I have the free will to tell God no thanks to watching the video of my life?

[Blake]

Why don't you read? Honest question.

I read your request for a Bible passage.

Did you or did you not request such a passage?

[vy65]

I read your request for a Bible passage.

Did you or did you not request such a passage?

No, you didn't read my point about literalists being idiots.

Did you or did you not ask me about my point?

[vy65]

Actually, if you're gonna quibble over minutia and ignore the larger point, then I have nothing to say to you Blake.

[Blake]

No, you didn't read my point about literalists being idiots.

I did, which made me find your request odd.

If you think the Bible shouldn't be take literally, there would be no reason to give credence to that passage either.

Since you concurred with that sentiment, I find it to be a worthless request. Just my 2 cents, take it for what it's worth.

[vy65]

Which passage?

[Blake]

Actually, if you're gonna quibble over minutia and ignore the larger point, then I have nothing to say to you Blake.

k, so we're clear, confirm again what your larger point is.

[vy65]

I guess the larger issue I have is this: I don't know who's more stupid - Christians who take every word of the bible literally - or "atheists" (for lack of a better word) who take issue with the bible's "logic" because they read the bible literally.

[Blake]

Which passage?

it would be the passage you've requested.

this conversation is incredible.

[vy65]

it would be the passage you've requested.

this conversation is incredible.

I could very well be wrong. Such a passage would confirm me being wrong. That's why I asked for it.

[ElNono]

No you will be active, learning and revisiting your life and making amends with the people you wronged and the people who wronged you will make amends with you. All which is not right on earth during our lifetimes will be righted, fairness will prevail and the just will be rewarded.

One of the first things that will happen is you will meet family and friends that have passed on, then your life review before God. Everything you have ever said or done has been recorded. there will be no denying anything as you watch it as it happens again in front of you. The high points(the good you have done for others) and low points(the bad you have done to others) will be reviewed. All things will be righted and lessons will be learned. This is what life on Earth is about, a learning experience to grow towards the goal of living in Heaven.

That happens when you take the blue pill or the red pill? I can't never remember...

BTW, the book was much better than the movie, IMO...

[clambake]

i'm the only one that thinks rascal is a riot?

[Wild Cobra]

It's funny how Christians used the bible to justify slavery, then after the country woke and realized that slavery was wrong, they say that the part about slavery "Isn't meant to be taken literally."
It doesn't matter if it's religion or law. In role playing games, it's called "Lawful evil." It's an excuse to be evil.

[Winehole23]

Paul: best troll job everUnelaborated, I kind of agree with this.

The Harry Dean Stanton impression of St. Paul in Scorsese's "The Last Temptation of Christ" springs readily to mind. Weird uncle-ish, arrogant, obsessive, obviously nutty and fiercely angry.

(For example, St. Paul was so anti-sex he denounced marriage. "A cradle of sin and little more than legalized fornication." )

Of course, I have no idea why you think St. Paul was the best troll job ever. Would you mind telling?

[Winehole23]

lol Christian doctrine would say

lol your hobby is talking about meI keep trying converse with you, but it's clear by now I'm only interfering with the conversation you're having with with yourself.

Enjoy!

[SAScrub]

I thought I had retired from this, but alas I must return.

I got through about 10 or 12 pages of this thing and decided making a statement was appropriate. So, here's the thing:

In response to the OP's questions, it's pretty simple. You live in a country where Christianity is the primary religion, and you spend all of your time bashing Christianity. Do we really need to wonder why you're "hated" (although I disagree that anyone hates you)? What is it, like 75% or 80% of people claiming to be some sort of Christian. So, when you aggressively attack the belief system of 3/4 of the population, you might get some backlash...maybe. As far as hatred goes, it is possible (and this is just a theory), that both atheists and Christians are capable of acting like world-class dicks.

Another reason could be the absolute arrogance with which atheists seem to carry themselves. For people who have no god, they sure do behave "holier-than-thou" in most situations. Posting Excel spot charts circa 1990 attempting to explain how the smart people don't believe in god, as though atheists have somehow cornered the market on intelligence and education. Everyone loves that.

Then we somehow digressed into a abortion quasi-debate, which is really just a bunch of semantics being tossed about. The argument is simple...are we dealing with a human being or not? If it's un-human, do whatever the hell you want with it. If it is human, it deserves rights and protection like everyone else. What has science proven? Absolutely nothing about when life begins. It's up for debate...so until science proves something, let's just keep killing away, right?

Oh...and gay marriage too, right...let's see. Gays have the exact same rights today as I do. They don't want equal rights, they want special rights. Should they have them? Who knows...but they don't have any less rights than I do today.

Literal translations and readings of the Bible...some books are literal, some are not. Anyone with half a brain and a honest desire to learn can do their homework and know which ones are which.

I kind of missed this...

[Blake]

I could very well be wrong. Such a passage would confirm me being wrong. That's why I asked for it.

It would confirm you being wrong about what?

[Blake]

Unelaborated, I kind of agree with this.

The Harry Dean Stanton impression of St. Paul in Scorsese's "The Last Temptation of Christ" springs readily to mind. Weird uncle-ish, arrogant, obsessive, obviously nutty and fiercely angry.

(For example, St. Paul was so anti-sex he denounced marriage. "A cradle of sin and little more than legalized fornication." )

Of course, I have no idea why you think St. Paul was the best troll job ever. Would you mind telling?

It was more of a Spurstalk related joke than a real indictment of Paul on my part, but yeah I think he pulled a nice troll job on humanity.

There are a good deal of scholars that have made convincing arguments that Paul is full of shit. Even Thomas Jefferson called him the first corrupter of Jesus' teachings. I tend to agree.

[Blake]

I keep trying converse with you, but it's clear by now I'm only interfering with the conversation you're having with with yourself.

Enjoy!

Your effort to try to converse was poor, imo.

I think it's clear you would rather whine about how mean I am to the board Christians than to stay on topic.

[101A]

I thought I had retired from this, but alas I must return.

I got through about 10 or 12 pages of this thing and decided making a statement was appropriate. So, here's the thing:

In response to the OP's questions, it's pretty simple. You live in a country where Christianity is the primary religion, and you spend all of your time bashing Christianity. Do we really need to wonder why you're "hated" (although I disagree that anyone hates you)? What is it, like 75% or 80% of people claiming to be some sort of Christian. So, when you aggressively attack the belief system of 3/4 of the population, you might get some backlash...maybe. As far as hatred goes, it is possible (and this is just a theory), that both atheists and Christians are capable of acting like world-class dicks.

Another reason could be the absolute arrogance with which atheists seem to carry themselves. For people who have no god, they sure do behave "holier-than-thou" in most situations. Posting Excel spot charts circa 1990 attempting to explain how the smart people don't believe in god, as though atheists have somehow cornered the market on intelligence and education. Everyone loves that.

Then we somehow digressed into a abortion quasi-debate, which is really just a bunch of semantics being tossed about. The argument is simple...are we dealing with a human being or not? If it's un-human, do whatever the hell you want with it. If it is human, it deserves rights and protection like everyone else. What has science proven? Absolutely nothing about when life begins. It's up for debate...so until science proves something, let's just keep killing away, right?

Oh...and gay marriage too, right...let's see. Gays have the exact same rights today as I do. They don't want equal rights, they want special rights. Should they have them? Who knows...but they don't have any less rights than I do today.

Literal translations and readings of the Bible...some books are literal, some are not. Anyone with half a brain and a honest desire to learn can do their homework and know which ones are which.

I kind of missed this...

Post more.

[Blake]

Then we somehow digressed into a abortion quasi-debate, which is really just a bunch of semantics being tossed about. The argument is simple...are we dealing with a human being or not? If it's un-human, do whatever the hell you want with it. If it is human, it deserves rights and protection like everyone else. What has science proven? Absolutely nothing about when life begins. It's up for debate...so until science proves something, let's just keep killing away, right?

If science hasn't proven anything, why would you imply that anyone is killing anything?

Is masturbation murder?


Oh...and gay marriage too, right...let's see. Gays have the exact same rights today as I do. They don't want equal rights, they want special rights. Should they have them? Who knows...but they don't have any less rights than I do today.

Why is the fact that they have equal rights as you do even an issue?


Literal translations and readings of the Bible...some books are literal, some are not. Anyone with half a brain and a honest desire to learn can do their homework and know which ones are which.

If even one story of magic in the Bible shouldn't be taken literally, why should any of it?

[clambake]

If even one story of magic in the Bible shouldn't be taken literally, why should any of it?

this

[101A]

If science hasn't proven anything, why would you imply that anyone is killing anything?

Is masturbation murder?



Why is the fact that they have equal rights as you do even an issue?



If even one story of magic in the Bible shouldn't be taken literally, why should any of it?

Why do you care so much about what other people believe? What do you hope to gain? You obviously feel intellectually superior to any naive believer, can't you just be comfortable with your superiority and not attempt to belittle their feeble-minded selves?

There are people who believe in ghosts. I do not.
There are people who believe extra terrestrials visit this planet. I do not.

I do not seek out those people, ridicule their beliefs, and attempt to convince them of the error of their ways. As D Reign pointed out, there are myriad Christians who do believe it their mission to "spread the good news" (Christ told us to, after all). Those pushy Christians are almost universally ridiculed, bemoaned and despised not only among the posters on this board, but everywhere else, as well.

You are behaving very much like THOSE Christians.

[Winehole23]

Your effort to try to converse was poor, imo. Nah. You're just an asshole.

I think it's clear you would rather whine about how mean I am to the board Christians than to stay on topic.I mentioned it in passing and moved on. You're the whiner who can't let go.

[Winehole23]

whining about how mean and unfair hell is to people who don't believe in it, and about me being off topic when you're all over the place

[SAScrub]

If science hasn't proven anything, why would you imply that anyone is killing anything?

Is masturbation murder?

The implication comes from the fact that when humans reproduce, they reproduce nothing other than human beings. They don't reproduce trees, they don't reproduce cats, they don't reproduce spaghetti monsters. They reproduce human beings. When you end the life of whatever humans reproduce, you end the life of a human being. That's just my position. You can talk about zygotes and all your other distractionary rhetoric, but in it's most simple explanation - humans begat humans. If you want to argue that somewhere along the line a human being's offspring is unhuman, knock yourself out.

The argument is "is it a human being or not". The sperm you send down the drain in your jack shack is not a human being. I don't care what you do with it. When that sperm fertilizes an egg...then we have a conversation.




Why is the fact that they have equal rights as you do even an issue?

It isn't. I'm confused a little bit as to why you're even asking that.



If even one story of magic in the Bible shouldn't be taken literally, why should any of it?

Why? The Bible, as a whole, is a collection of books. Each book serves a different function, has a different author, and, as a result, a different literary style. Just because one is a book of poetry doesn't automatically discredit the book of history.