The NBA's best second unit

[analyzed]

I think Green moving to the starting line-up is a sign of things to come as Manu returns, especially for the second unit. Which I think arguably will be the best in the league;

Neal, Manu, Kawhi, Booner and Splitter. 3 of subs are actually better players than 3 of the starters (Green, Blair and RJ)

Playing Green and RJ to start makes sense , as it balances out defence (Green) with shooting (RJ) who are also natural SG and SF respectively.

Manu as the defacto quarterback in the second unit will work wonders with a screen a role partner Tiago , surrounded with good shooters Neal and Bonner. And with our best perimeter defender kawhi, this unit will definetly give opposing teams second unit fits

[jason1301]

Manu behind the back pass to Kawhi hehehe

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3nJDHwDEls

[Seventyniner]

Starting RJ, Green, and Blair would give the Spurs one of the worst starting lineups among playoff teams IMO.

[ElNono]

That's some nifty font you're using there...

[Proxy]

No way. Green is so inconsistent. For every great play he makes, he equals out with a stupid foul. I know a lot of people love him here on ST, and I value what he's done so far, but he isn't a starter.

Manu starts (once he gets back into form). No questions asked. He is the best player on the team. The bench is fine without him, especially when TJ gets back.

PS - Why would Green start when Manu returns if he doesn't even start now? Leonard is a more valuable player to what we need on the perimeter, which is man-to-man defense.

[my2sons]

Starting RJ, Green, and Blair would give the Spurs one of the worst starting lineups among playoff teams IMO.

...and yet they continue to win...

[Nathan Explosion]

...and yet they continue to win...

They won 1 game with Green as the starter. I don't mind Gino coming off the bench if it means Leonard is a starter. The defense has improved with Leonard in the starting lineup. The results don't lie either.

[DesignatedT]

Best 2nd unit and haven't had a draft pick before #20 since Duncan was drafted.

but the FO sucks.

[ohmwrecker]

Manu starts. Why do threads like this continue to exist?

[The Truth #6]

Our second unit might be better than our first unit.

Right now:

Tiago > Tim (slightly)
Bonner > Blair
Green > RJ
Neal = Leonard

The only thing keeping the first unit going is Tony, with some occasional brilliance from Tim. Blair and RJ vanish quickly. The second unit functions much more like a team with better defense and ball movement.

BUT...the lineups are much more fluid than simply first unit vs. second unit. So ultimately, it's a difficult strict comparison to make.

[Spursfan4lyfe]

Tiago > Tim (slightly)
really at this point only offensively and thats at the rim (no outside jumper painful to watch) there is not a big man on the team that can defend as well as Tim

[DesignatedT]

Tiago is not better than Tim. but there is no reason to get into that argument right now. Both are crucial to this team. It doesn't matter.

[xellos88330]

The second unit can play. They beat the starters at the open scrimmage. It took an overtime, but the starters still lost. Manu was friggin pissed.

[DMC]

No way. Green is so inconsistent. For every great play he makes, he equals out with a stupid foul. I know a lot of people love him here on ST, and I value what he's done so far, but he isn't a starter.

Manu starts (once he gets back into form). No questions asked. He is the best player on the team. The bench is fine without him, especially when TJ gets back.

PS - Why would Green start when Manu returns if he doesn't even start now? Leonard is a more valuable player to what we need on the perimeter, which is man-to-man defense.
I had this opinion of Green early on, that he was too inconsistent, however Green has something most other bench guys lack, and that's a set of balls. When Green fucks up, and he does on occasion, he doesn't hang his head and mope down the floor. He gets back and makes something happen on defense. He keeps shooting if he misses a shot instead of deferring and becoming RJ's style of useless.

As pissed as I get at some of his boneheaded moves, I get just as impressed with his professionalism and short term memory.

[MR.SILVER&BLack]

manu will start & green will go back to being the 11th man on the roster once TJ Ford returns.

[underdawg]

Best 2nd unit and haven't had a draft pick before #20 since Duncan was drafted.

but the FO sucks.

some might argue that a good 2nd unit doesn't quite make it a wash for:
rj
bonner
anderson
bogans
udoka
mahinmi
scola
butler
2nd finley contract

[Spursfan092120]

Tiago is not better than Tim.

This...

Tiago has great footwork, but Tim's shot and D puts him ahead of Tiago..

[Fireball]

Manu starts ... more important is that Kawhi starts with him instead of RJ ... see TIMVPs "10 reasons" thread ...

[mudyez]

start...

tim
blair
rj
leonard
parker

....with blair and leonard you can break the opposing will, coz you get any free ball and will hustle the hell out of them.

then switch to a second lineup with manu leading the way, bonner stretching the court, green bringing even more energie, splitter bullying the bigs and tj running the show.

[ElNono]

Best 2nd unit and haven't had a draft pick before #20 since Duncan was drafted.

Kawhi Leonard was selected with the 15 pick... which shows that if they didn't have one is because they didn't think they needed to trade for one (winning 50 games a season wouldn't land them one, obviously).

If you really want to be sneaky, McDyess was selected with the #2 pick, Horry was the #11 pick, Brent Barry was the #15 pick and Finley, while he was selected with the #21 pick, was an All Star multiple times.

In other words, while the Spurs didn't rebuild through the draft during that period (a given, due to their success), they did get solid vet talent that were selected with relatively high picks.

Now, as far as *THIS* second unit, there's no doubt they found great players out there in Neal, Tiago and Green (not sold on Anderson yet). Tiago is less of a surprise for the international crowd, much like Scola back in the day.

:toast

[Darkwaters]

If you really want to be sneaky, McDyess was selected with the #2 pick, Horry was the #11 pick, Brent Barry was the #15 pick and Finley, while he was selected with the #21 pick, was an All Star multiple times.

In other words, while the Spurs didn't rebuild through the draft during that period (a given, due to their success), they did get solid vet talent that were selected with relatively high picks.


Definitely true, but at the same time they weren't exactly getting those players when they were 25 years old and playing some of their best basketball. Most of the veteran pick-ups were former lottery picks that had played long careers and had started to trend downwards already.

[TDMVPDPOY]

its called improvise fags...we cant have a 2nd unit which cant score when we need them to score and play defense...while the starters take a breather

[SpurNation]

For sure advocate Manu off the bench to lead and direct the second unit. Not convinced about the line up you presented. It leaves the first unit with too many gaping holes and places too much pressure for Parker and Duncan if (When) the others in that scenario do not produce.

I'd like to see them try a starting unit of Parker, Duncan, Blair, Neal and Leonard. Primary second tier of Ginobili, Jefferson, Splitter, Bonner and Green. When TJ returns...reduce Green's minutes and/or adjust Green and Jefferson depending on matchups.

[DesignatedT]

Kawhi Leonard was selected with the 15 pick... which shows that if they didn't have one is because they didn't think they needed to trade for one (winning 50 games a season wouldn't land them one, obviously).

If you really want to be sneaky, McDyess was selected with the #2 pick, Horry was the #11 pick, Brent Barry was the #15 pick and Finley, while he was selected with the #21 pick, was an All Star multiple times.

In other words, while the Spurs didn't rebuild through the draft during that period (a given, due to their success), they did get solid vet talent that were selected with relatively high picks.

Now, as far as *THIS* second unit, there's no doubt they found great players out there in Neal, Tiago and Green (not sold on Anderson yet). Tiago is less of a surprise for the international crowd, much like Scola back in the day.

:toast


That's the whole point. They didn't have the luxury to rebuild through the draft with high draft picks. They had to play the FA market and either sign older vets or minimum players. Also, Instead they go out and find guys like Gary Neal and Danny Green who either had no NBA experience or failed in the NBA until signing them.

You're reaching.

[ElNono]

Definitely true, but at the same time they weren't exactly getting those players when they were 25 years old and playing some of their best basketball. Most of the veteran pick-ups were former lottery picks that had played long careers and had started to trend downwards already.

Some of them were still very productive players... Horry, Barry, even Finley... heck, you could even argue the Spurs didn't have to endure the pains of their growing up seasons...


That's the whole point. They didn't have the luxury to rebuild through the draft with high draft picks. They had to play the FA market and either sign older vets or minimum players. Also, Instead they go out and find guys like Gary Neal and Danny Green who either had no NBA experience or failed in the NBA until signing them.

You're reaching.

Hey, I said I was being sneaky. :lol

The point though is that when you have success, building through the draft is damn near impossible. The thing with being a contender though, is that you also make yourself a more attractive place to recruit some good vet talent.

The Spurs ran into trouble when they stopped being contenders, yet winning at a good pace. We didn't get the picks nor the good free agents. While the additions of guys like Neal and Green might not turn them into contenders, the FO certainly deserves credit for making then serviceable NBA players.

[TJastal]

start...

tim
blair
rj
leonard
parker

....with blair and leonard you can break the opposing will, coz you get any free ball and will hustle the hell out of them.

then switch to a second lineup with manu leading the way, bonner stretching the court, green bringing even more energie, splitter bullying the bigs and tj running the show.

:lmao @ the thought of RJ & whataburger boy "breaking" anyone's will. You should try comedy for a living mudyez. :tu

[wildbill2u]

Looking at a roster full of good young players who should be able to earn some minutes, before the season last year I advocated dumping the traditional short roster rotation and effectively going with a two team system.

There are several advantages:
1 It gives our older players some reduction in minutes, giving them rest during this abbreviated and compressed season.
2. The second team comes in fresh and can really wear out the other team if they are playing their starters the traditional 35-40 minutes.
3. Players tend to coast a little when they know they have to play big minutes. This keeps our best guys on the top of their game while the other team may be caught coasting by our fresh troops.
4. A unique team attitude can develop, especially on the part of the 'second wave' when they know they are an important part of the strategy and will get serious minutes, not just garbage time.

Of course all this is based on the second team coming through by taking advantage of their increased time and the vets being willing to give up some minutes, minutes that in the traditional lore of the NBA gave more stats and hence, more prestige and money.

Giving his previous practice with rookies and newbies on minutes on the floor, I have to give Pop props for recognizing the season situation and the quality of his second team and making this major adjustment in his coaching.

Or maybe he just reads my posts for coaching tips.:lol

[LoveMySpurs]

Does it really matter who starts? It's who is playing the best at any point and who FINISHES and WINS the game that matters. We have such a deep bench that if one guy is having an off night, there is someone to step up and take over. Team is way better than I expected this year. Oh, and Manu comes back tonight!
Really looking forward to seeing what they will do NEXT year with a years experience for the newbies.

[underdawg]

That's the whole point. They didn't have the luxury to rebuild through the draft with high draft picks. They had to play the FA market and either sign older vets or minimum players. Also, Instead they go out and find guys like Gary Neal and Danny Green who either had no NBA experience or failed in the NBA until signing them.

You're reaching.

No, you're reaching - just because Pop has now decided to play young players because he has no other choice, he's a genius and the FO is to be commended for their insight?

Many of us Spur fans have been advocating for Pop to play the younger guys for years and especially when the washed up veterans could no longer hold their own. Veteran players were a good idea while the big 3 were still dominant, but Pop held on too long to that strategy and it probably cost the Spurs some championships. A player like Neal or Leonard gets little to no playing time for a couple of years while they "learn the system" if they were on the Spurs pre-2009. Because of the failures of the FO to bring in quality FA's, Pop had to play Neal and he has to play Leonard now because he has no choice - remember he doesn't like to play rookies.

As far as re-building through the draft - what successful team right now has rebuilt through lottery picks? OKC had 3 years in a row with a lottery pick, but one of those picks doesn't play for them. It obviously takes more than lottery picks and the Spurs organization was greatly helped by a FO that was fortunate to have 2 successful #1 picks, great scouting in Europe and creating a professional environment where players bought into the plan. That said, the current FO has been coasting on the abilities of the big 3 since 2007.

[SpursNextRomanEmpire]

:lmao @ the thought of RJ & whataburger boy "breaking" anyone's will. You should try comedy for a living mudyez. :tu

bitter unfunny douche

[therealtruth]

Does it really matter who starts? It's who is playing the best at any point and who FINISHES and WINS the game that matters. We have such a deep bench that if one guy is having an off night, there is someone to step up and take over. Team is way better than I expected this year. Oh, and Manu comes back tonight!
Really looking forward to seeing what they will do NEXT year with a years experience for the newbies.

Yeah it matters. You want to start a unit that's good enough so it can build a lead and allow your bench to maintain that lead. Expecting your bench to always lead a comeback isn't the best strategy.

[therealtruth]

No, you're reaching - just because Pop has now decided to play young players because he has no other choice, he's a genius and the FO is to be commended for their insight?

Many of us Spur fans have been advocating for Pop to play the younger guys for years and especially when the washed up veterans could no longer hold their own. Veteran players were a good idea while the big 3 were still dominant, but Pop held on too long to that strategy and it probably cost the Spurs some championships. A player like Neal or Leonard gets little to no playing time for a couple of years while they "learn the system" if they were on the Spurs pre-2009. Because of the failures of the FO to bring in quality FA's, Pop had to play Neal and he has to play Leonard now because he has no choice - remember he doesn't like to play rookies.

As far as re-building through the draft - what successful team right now has rebuilt through lottery picks? OKC had 3 years in a row with a lottery pick, but one of those picks doesn't play for them. It obviously takes more than lottery picks and the Spurs organization was greatly helped by a FO that was fortunate to have 2 successful #1 picks, great scouting in Europe and creating a professional environment where players bought into the plan. That said, the current FO has been coasting on the abilities of the big 3 since 2007.

Good point. Pop rode the veterans too long. A guy like Finley should probably have retired when Horry did but continued to steal minutes.

[DesignatedT]

Pop relying on veterans too long has nothing to do with how he he continued to have a good bench year in and year out while having horrible draft positions. Your post has no relevance to mine.

Sounds like you're just going around looking for reasons to trash him.

[underdawg]

Pop relying on veterans too long has nothing to do with how he he continued to have a good bench year in and year out while having horrible draft positions. Your post has no relevance to mine.

Sounds like you're just going around looking for reasons to trash him.

Are you trolling me are you seriously saying he's a had a good bench year in year out? He hasn't had a good bench since 2007 - go look at the stats & go look at the results. I'm not trying to trash Pop - it's just a pretty simple observation.

As far as relevance, having horrible draft positions is a problem that every successful team faces and they overcome losing quality players by adding quality players through trades and FA (happens all the time and even small market teams too). The FO's problem is that they held onto poor players too long and failed to replace the talent that was lost or that had declined with age.

[DesignatedT]

Are you trolling me are you seriously saying he's a had a good bench year in year out? He hasn't had a good bench since 2007 - go look at the stats & go look at the results. I'm not trying to trash Pop - it's just a pretty simple observation.

As far as relevance, having horrible draft positions is a problem that every successful team faces and they overcome losing quality players by adding quality players through trades and FA (happens all the time and even small market teams too). The FO's problem is that they held onto poor players too long and failed to replace the talent that was lost or that had declined with age.

The Spurs bench has rated top 5 in offensive efficiency and defensive efficiency each of the last 5-6 years, also finishing #1 in these areas numerous times since 2007.

[DesignatedT]

As far as relevance, having horrible draft positions is a problem that every successful team faces and they overcome losing quality players by adding quality players through trades and FA (happens all the time and even small market teams too). The FO's problem is that they held onto poor players too long and failed to replace the talent that was lost or that had declined with age.


Other successful teams have not dealt with this like the Spurs have. The Spurs have drafted well with their low picks (good FO), they have found minimum contract players who play significant minutes (good FO),they do this by staying under the cap (other successful teams might not have to deal with that) and they have also continued to construct good benchs every year without having the luxury of being "THE LA LAKERS" or other big market names that attract all players.

Other successful teams have to deal with low draft picks? Well no shit, but none of these other successful teams have done it the way this FO has.

and yes they have made mistakes also

[DesignatedT]

and there is a reason why every team in the NBA tries to model their franchise after the Spurs. Spurs fans are the only ones who think this FO sucks, thinks we should tank the season with a homecourt advantage caliber team, thinks Pop sucks, etc, etc..

[SpurNation]

and there is a reason why every team in the NBA tries to model their franchise after the Spurs. Spurs fans are the only ones who think this FO sucks, thinks we should tank the season with a homecourt advantage caliber team, thinks Pop sucks, etc, etc..

Sometimes it's best just to let them think they're right. :hat

[underdawg]

The Spurs bench has rated top 5 in offensive efficiency and defensive efficiency each of the last 5-6 years, also finishing #1 in these areas numerous times since 2007.

Are those stats from the playoffs?

Spurs defense has declined since 2007 and that has a lot to do with the Spurs bench or mainly the supporting cast to the Big 3.

This FO has drafted well? Since 2007 - Leonard and Hill, but Hill was exactly spectacular for the Spurs in the playoffs last year. Anderson - incomplete, Blair - 2nd round but he's not a great pick at this point

But even going back before 2007, the Spurs didn't really draft well since Parker. Scola was a good pick, but he never played a minute for the Spurs.

The FO prior to 2007 did a really good job of bringing in good players to help out - Horry, Barry, Bowen, Jackson, Claxton, Elie, Rasho, Mohammed, Elson (he helped some), Oberto - there were bad players too but mostly good.

The FO after 2007 brought Udoka, kept Finley too long, Damon Stoudamire, brought in Gooden but let him after the season, Roger Mason, Bogans, etc., - Kurt and Dice were decent but really too old to help a declining big 3.

Most of the league used to underrate the Spurs too - but at the end of the day they won rings and that's what mattered. Other teams can model their franchises after the Spurs all they want - that doesn't mean crap when the Spurs get bounced early in the playoffs.

[DesignatedT]

Hill was a great pick for a late first rounder, Blair was indeed a great pick for a 2nd rounder. Leonard looks the part so far.

Love how you leave out Splitter in the late first round... another great pick.

The Spurs defense and the Spurs overall have declined because of the big 3 and their age. Every championship won and every championship lost has always been on the big 3. People like to point fingers at other role players and such but that doesn't matter. They get older = less chance of winning. With them tying up virtually all our cap room every year it assures that it's ride or die with them. Always has been. Danny Green can be replaces, DeJuan Blair can be replaced, so on and so on. The role players are only a small piece of the puzzle to this equation.

[underdawg]

Hill was a great pick for a late first rounder, Blair was indeed a great pick for a 2nd rounder. Leonard looks the part so far.

Love how you leave out Splitter in the late first round... another great pick.

The Spurs defense and the Spurs overall have declined because of the big 3 and their age. Every championship won and every championship lost has always been on the big 3. People like to point fingers at other role players and such but that doesn't matter. They get older = less chance of winning. With them tying up virtually all our cap room every year it assures that it's ride or die with them. Always has been. Danny Green can be replaces, DeJuan Blair can be replaced, so on and so on. The role players are only a small piece of the puzzle to this equation.

didn't mean to leave Splitter out - he's by far the best pick they've had since Parker even if it did take them 4 years to get him to the team.

Yes the big 3 have declined in age, but Parker & Manu's defense has actually improved over the past couple of years. Duncan's defense was expected to decline, but it didn't help that he was basically defending the rim by himself for large portions of time over the past couple of years - whether it was with Bonner or small ball. Pop went with small ball at the sacrifice of defense and the big 3's age had nothing to do with that. Pop felt the need to adjust to other teams and so far it has back fired on him. There's no logic in going against the strategy that won rings - defense. Especially, when teams can shut down Parker or Manu - you can't score more than the other team but you have a shot at out defending them as the Spurs have done in the past.

I guess it's easy just to concede that role players are just role players and that definitely seems to be what the FO have thought since 2007.

No sense arguing any more, but I have no doubt that the Spurs role players have to win games in the playoffs for the Spurs to advance. Average role players rarely do that.

[therealtruth]

didn't mean to leave Splitter out - he's by far the best pick they've had since Parker even if it did take them 4 years to get him to the team.

Yes the big 3 have declined in age, but Parker & Manu's defense has actually improved over the past couple of years. Duncan's defense was expected to decline, but it didn't help that he was basically defending the rim by himself for large portions of time over the past couple of years - whether it was with Bonner or small ball. Pop went with small ball at the sacrifice of defense and the big 3's age had nothing to do with that. Pop felt the need to adjust to other teams and so far it has back fired on him. There's no logic in going against the strategy that won rings - defense. Especially, when teams can shut down Parker or Manu - you can't score more than the other team but you have a shot at out defending them as the Spurs have done in the past.

I guess it's easy just to concede that role players are just role players and that definitely seems to be what the FO have thought since 2007.

No sense arguing any more, but I have no doubt that the Spurs role players have to win games in the playoffs for the Spurs to advance. Average role players rarely do that.

Exactly the main problem with Pop since 2009 is he went away from his defensive roots. Bonner/Blair replaced defensive minded bigs like Oberto, Elson, and Horry.

[DesignatedT]

Now we're getting into something different than what the original point was in this thread.

I have not agreed with everything Popovich has done on the court but that's a totally different topic of discussion.

[TJastal]

Does it really matter who starts? It's who is playing the best at any point and who FINISHES and WINS the game that matters. We have such a deep bench that if one guy is having an off night, there is someone to step up and take over. Team is way better than I expected this year. Oh, and Manu comes back tonight!
Really looking forward to seeing what they will do NEXT year with a years experience for the newbies.

I'm not one to just "go with the flow" as it were.

If I was coaching I would want to get some regular rotations patternized so guys can used to playing with (generally) the same guys, night after night. If there is constant screwing around with the lineups/rotations, nobody can get comfortable playing with anyone else. You might ride a hot hand a little while longer than normal, but generally it will be limited to one perhaps two exceptions on any given night.

I agree the guys closing ballgames should be pretty static every night. Parker, Neal, Manu, Duncan, Splitter under normal circumstances would be my closers. Sub Leonard and perhaps Green for defensive purposes and maybe Bonner for offensive spacing. That's it.

[Obstructed_View]

If the result of not starting your best players was championships, that would be one thing. If the result is just really strong bench production, then not so much.

[Cane]

Manu should come off the bench until TJ Ford can return. Spurs need a star playmaker on the floor when Parker is resting

[DesignatedT]

Manu should come off the bench until TJ Ford can return. Spurs need a star playmaker on the floor when Parker is resting

Yes. Parker is now able to rest more with Manu coming off the bench. It works much better this way until TJ gets back. Plus Manu needs time to get his legs back and all that.

[SpurNation]

Manu should come off the bench until TJ Ford can return. Spurs need a star playmaker on the floor when Parker is resting

This site shows a compelling example to that notion. http://basketballvalue.com/teamunits.php?year=2011-2012&team=SAS

It appears that a starting unit of Parker, Neal, Leonard, Bonner and Duncan in a little over a quarter of time produce a very effective squad. Once Manu is back in game shape and considering his history of getting Jefferson and Blair to perform at their best while on the court together...it might bode well to have a primary second unit of Manu, Green, Jefferson, Blair and Splitter. Upon TJ's return (and if he is ready) then Ford, Ginobili, Green or Jefferson, Blair and Splitter.

[underdawg]

This site shows a compelling example to that notion. http://basketballvalue.com/teamunits.php?year=2011-2012&team=SAS

It appears that a starting unit of Parker, Neal, Leonard, Bonner and Duncan in a little over a quarter of time produce a very effective squad. Once Manu is back in game shape and considering his history of getting Jefferson and Blair to perform at their best while on the court together...it might bode well to have a primary second unit of Manu, Green, Jefferson, Blair and Splitter. Upon TJ's return (and if he is ready) then Ford, Ginobili, Green or Jefferson, Blair and Splitter.
I think the Spurs would still be vulnerable on defense with that lineup. Here's a couple of scenarios I'd hope to see from the Spurs:

#1) I'd prefer to see Tiago with Duncan, but that would require that the Spurs upgrade their front court (through a trade) for a better #3 big to roll with Bonner or Blair. If that were the case you would have:

1st unit - parker, manu, leonard, tiago and duncan
2nd unit - tj, neal, rj, #3 big and bonner/blair (whoever's left)
utility player - green to fill in the hole for a guard or sf not playing well
*1st unit has best offense from parker, manu, duncan and tiago & best defense from Manu, leonard, tiago and duncan. 1st unit would require large share of minutes and would be the strongest lineup possible but would largest risk of injury to the big 3 because of minutes. 2nd unit could provide enough offense to overcome their defensive vulnerability

#2) If the Spurs can't make a trade, they should try and bring in a young and long #4 big that hopefully can help Duncan on backside help and clean up the rim when possible. I understand this is a longshot because of the age of the season but there's a small chance the lineup could be ready by the playoffs. If that were possible, you'd have:

1st unit - parker, neal, jefferson, #4 long big and duncan
2nd unit - tj, manu, leonard, bonner and tiago
utility players - green, anderson and blair to fill in holes
*1st unit has consistent offense from parker and neal, 2nd unit has offense from Manu and great defense from manu, leonard and tiago. Both units would be close in share of minutes and would keep the big 3's legs fresh.