Biggest waste of talent in NBA history?

[DeadlyDynasty]

Not due to injury though...so no Brandon Roy, Grant Hill, Oden, etc.


Derrick Coleman immediately comes to mind for me.

[Rip-Hamilton32]

Len Bias

[Pelicans78]

Derrick Coleman is one.

Lamar Odom is another that comes to mind, but he became a very good player last season. Still, I don't think he made the All-Star team.

How about some of the coke heads in the 70s?

Eddy Curry is another who comes to mind.

Marbury.

[DeadlyDynasty]

Derrick Coleman is one.

Lamar Odom is another that comes to mind, but he became a very good player last season. Still, I don't think he made the All-Star team.

How about some of the coke heads in the 70s?

Eddy Curry is another who comes to mind.

Marbury.

Good choices...it's hard to make a ruling on Odom though. He's definitely one of the most versatile players to ever suit up, but yeah--I guess it always seemed like he could be a lot more dominant/impactful than he was. Still, he was a huge part of 2 title teams.

[Killakobe81]

Coleman
potentially J.R. Smith ...
David thompson
roy Tarpley

[Pelicans78]

Alot of the centers in the 80s like Benoit Benjamin, Chris Washburn, Alton Lister, Roy Tarpley.

But yeah, has to be Derrick Coleman as the top choice even though he made the All-Star team a few times.

[Pelicans78]

I agree with J.R. Smith. Tons of talent. He did improve last season.

[baseline bum]

Kwame Brown has to be up there.

[DeadlyDynasty]

Although he won a ring and has been a good player, Rasheed Wallace could've been so much more dominant than he was. He could do it all, but didn't have the right attitude/mindset for the game much of his career.

[DeadlyDynasty]

Kwame Brown has to be up there.

What could have been had he learned how to catch an entry pass...

[DirkDoesWork]

Darius Miles and Stromile Swift come to mind.

[NewcastleKEG]

Although he won a ring and has been a good player, Rasheed Wallace could've been so much more dominant than he was. He could do it all, but didn't have the right attitude/mindset for the game much of his career.
And when he did..... Game 7 of the 2010 Finals happened

That was Wallace's masterpiece exit stolen by the vindictive refs

[baseline bum]

Although he won a ring and has been a good player, Rasheed Wallace could've been so much more dominant than he was. He could do it all, but didn't have the right attitude/mindset for the game much of his career.

Wallace was a shitty rebounder, but I have no idea why the Blazers and Pistons didn't just go to him on the block all the time like the Spurs did with Duncan. He was absolutely devastating when he'd spin baseline and shoot from the low block.

[Jelloisjigglin]

:cry:cry:cry:cry:cry

[DirkDoesWork]

I'd throw in Terrence Williams if he continues on the path he is.

[Killakobe81]

I agree with J.R. Smith. Tons of talent. He did improve last season.

was better last year, but dude has more athletic gifts than Wade, Manu or kobe ...but his bball IQ and attitude has got in the way.

[Pelicans78]

I wanna add Carmelo. High scorer, not a great player. Most overrated player in the last 10 years.

[jjktkk]

Wallace was a shitty rebounder, but I have no idea why the Blazers and Pistons didn't just go to him on the block all the time like the Spurs did with Duncan. He was absolutely devastating when he'd spin baseline and shoot from the low block.

The problem, it seemed Wallace would never camp out in the paint, even though he could dominate. Dude rather stay out on the perimeter and chuck threes. Wallace was also a good defender, when he wanted to be, which wasn't often. He had the talent to be one of the best, what a waste.

[Pelicans78]

was better last year, but dude has more athletic gifts than Wade, Manu or kobe ...but his bball IQ and attitude has got in the way.

I agree. He really excited me his rookie season since he showed so much potential. Then when Paul was drafted, I thought those two would be an amazing backcourt tandem for years. JR was traded a year after Paul was drafted.

[DeadlyDynasty]

And when he did..... Game 7 of the 2010 Finals happened

That was Wallace's masterpiece exit stolen by the vindictive refs

http://www.bigblueinteractive.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/2590.jpg

[Killakobe81]

Wallace was a shitty rebounder, but I have no idea why the Blazers and Pistons didn't just go to him on the block all the time like the Spurs did with Duncan. He was absolutely devastating when he'd spin baseline and shoot from the low block.

He was except for the 4th quarter of Game 7 of 2000 WCF ... I saw him shrink and he only had the shorter, lighter Horry on him. that plus the failed rotations vs. the Spurs are skid marks on his career story ...

[Leetonidas]

Tracy McGrady...despite his injuries he could've been so much better than he was if he had played like he cared

[JayTheClown]

Isaiah rider

[DeadlyDynasty]

Wallace went on the block plenty against the Lakers in that 2000 WCF...motherfucker destroyed Green (lol) and Horry in the post.

[Pelicans78]

He was except for the 4th quarter of Game 7 of 2000 WCF ... I saw him shrink and he only had the shorter, lighter Horry on him. that plus the failed rotations are skid marks on his career story ...

It was amazing how that team fell apart once Sabonis fouled out. That team had too much talent just to shrink like that.

[DeadlyDynasty]

He was except for the 4th quarter of Game 7 of 2000 WCF ... I saw him shrink and he only had the shorter, lighter Horry on him. that plus the failed rotations vs. the Spurs are skid marks on his career story ...

He just missed shots in that 4th quarter (FT's too)...everybody on that team went ice cold in the 4th.

[ffadicted]

I feel like VC is a big candidate here even though he accomplished a lot

[DeadlyDynasty]

I feel like VC is a big candidate here even though he accomplished a lot

+1...he peaked in 2001:lol


What about Chris Webber? Great talent, many good seasons, but a career choke-artist

[JamStone]

Although he won a ring and has been a good player, Rasheed Wallace could've been so much more dominant than he was. He could do it all, but didn't have the right attitude/mindset for the game much of his career.

Rasheed is a little misunderstood. He could have been a better player with more individual accomplishments, but he didn't care about personal achievements. He didn't want to be the greatest player ever. He didn't want to become a Hall of Famer. And while that is probably part of his failure to reach his full potential, I think he's sometimes misconstrued as not caring. I think he cared, but more about team and winning than being individually great. After he joined the Pistons and I got to learn more about him through interviews and local Pistons segments, I began to view him differently. Now he was still a little lazy when it came to keeping up his conditioning in the off season, and he didn't like to put his butt in the low post all game long. But it wasn't because he didn't care.



Wallace was a shitty rebounder, but I have no idea why the Blazers and Pistons didn't just go to him on the block all the time like the Spurs did with Duncan. He was absolutely devastating when he'd spin baseline and shoot from the low block.

Rasheed wouldn't put his butt in the post all game long. He'd play the high screen and roll and sit his butt at the top of the three point line and chuck triples. When Larry Brown or Flip Saunders actually convinced him to get on the block, the Pistons offense was much, much different. Sometimes you just can't force a player to play a certain way. I think he had an aversion of too much physical contact, which is weird because he didn't mind banging down low defensively.

[Killakobe81]

Isaiah rider

Another great call. He was Jr. Smith BEFORE Smith!!!

[NewcastleKEG]

Wallace was a shitty rebounder, but I have no idea why the Blazers and Pistons didn't just go to him on the block all the time like the Spurs did with Duncan. He was absolutely devastating when he'd spin baseline and shoot from the low block.
He would shift to the 3point line

Wallace = Horry

[JayTheClown]

Clifford Robinson
Career tanked after the car accident

[DeadlyDynasty]

Clifford Robinson
Career tanked after the car accident

So did Rodney Rogers.

[JayTheClown]

I also want to say Kieth Van Horn aswell.

[Killakobe81]

Rasheed is a little misunderstood. He could have been a better player with more individual accomplishments, but he didn't care about personal achievements. He didn't want to be the greatest player ever. He didn't want to become a Hall of Famer. And while that is probably part of his failure to reach his full potential, I think he's sometimes misconstrued as not caring. I think he cared, but more about team and winning than being individually great. After he joined the Pistons and I got to learn more about him through interviews and local Pistons segments, I began to view him differently. Now he was still a little lazy when it came to keeping up his conditioning in the off season, and he didn't like to put his butt in the low post all game long. But it wasn't because he didn't care.




Rasheed wouldn't put his butt in the post all game long. He'd play the high screen and roll and sit his butt at the top of the three point line and chuck triples. When Larry Brown or Flip Saunders actually convinced him to get on the block, the Pistons offense was much, much different. Sometimes you just can't force a player to play a certain way. I think he had an aversion of too much physical contact, which is weird because he didn't mind banging down low defensively.

great points and he had that sweet turnaround even at UNC ...

I think as Heels fan you could see the hops, skills and length and you just wanted him to want "it" (greatness) more. Wouldnt say he didnt care just not enough for my tastes. he really had no holes offensively save maybe dribbling ...he could pass, post, shoot, dunk and even drive on bigger defenders. Defensively he could block shots, take charges and was agreat post defender. I also loved his ball dont lie chant and the championship wrestling belts ...

[mavs>spurs]

tim thomas

[DeadlyDynasty]

great points and he had that sweet turnaround even at UNC ...

I think as Heels fan you could see the hops, skills and length and you just wanted him to want "it" (greatness) more. Wouldnt say he didnt care just not enough for my tastes. he really had no holes offensively save maybe dribbling ...he could pass, post, shoot, dunk and even drive on bigger defenders. Defensively he could block shots, take charges and was agreat post defender. I also loved his ball dont lie chant and the championship wrestling belts ...

Defensively he could 'contain' prime Duncan 1-on-1, and he would shut down prime KG on a regular basis.

[DeadlyDynasty]

tim thomas

I hate that motherfucker something fierce

[JayTheClown]

I hate that motherfucker something fierce

I did to :lol

[Spursfan092120]

http://cdn.eurweb.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/stevefrancis.jpeg

Maybe
http://losthatsportsblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/oden1-300x287.jpg

Most likely
http://cdn.bleacherreport.com/images_root/image_pictures/0424/2591/sugar2_crop_340x234.jpg

[NewcastleKEG]

http://www.bigblueinteractive.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/2590.jpg
Oh so your a fan of all the big market cock sucking franchises?

Red Sox too huh

[DeadlyDynasty]

Oh so your a fan of all the big market cock sucking franchises?

Red Sox too huh

You're a Bulls fan and a 49ers fan...I'm sure there's a legitimate story behind that.:lol

[JayTheClown]

Both Jason Williamses

The Duke great and "White Chocolate"

The Duke great got into the motorcycle accident. Probably would have been a decent PG.

I feel "white chocolate" would have been an all star PG if he had his mind in the game.

[mavs>spurs]

I hate that motherfucker something fierce

tim thomas could have been a superstar if he gave a shit. he had his moments where he played like one. even his last year in dallas he had several 20-25 point games. dude was like instant offense off the bench.

[jjktkk]

I also want to say Kieth Van Horn aswell.

IMO, Van Horn was more over-hyped than a dude that wasted his talent.

[JamStone]

Mickeal Ray Richardson
Antoine Walker

[Spursfan092120]

Mickeal Ray Richardson

yup

[DeadlyDynasty]

tim thomas could have been a superstar if he gave a shit. he had his moments where he played like one. even his last year in dallas he had several 20-25 point games. dude was like instant offense off the bench.

Agreed. He was a great bench player on that 2001 Bucks team, and from there he just bounced around and never really improved like everyone had hoped.

But the faggot still nailed that 3 in Game 6:bang

[JamStone]

I don't know if I misjudged his talent early on his career or not so I don't know if he really wasted his talent, but I thought Larry Hughes was going to become a superstar.

[jjktkk]

Shawn Bradley. :hat

[jjktkk]

Shawn Kemp.

[JayTheClown]

IMO, Van Horn was more over-hyped than a dude that wasted his talent.

Those injures did him in.

[DeadlyDynasty]

Eddie Jones...one of my favs, but always thought he could've been much better than what he was.

[JayTheClown]

Agreed. He was a great bench player on that 2001 Bucks team, and from there he just bounced around and never really improved like everyone had hoped.

But the faggot still nailed that 3 in Game 6:bang

Your pissed I lost $400 dollars because of that 3:lol

[JayTheClown]

Anfernee Hardaway

[Killakobe81]

Eddie Jones...one of my favs, but always thought he could've been much better than what he was.

True on both accounts ...:toast

Horry as clutch as he was coasted too much in the regular season ...but those clutch jumpers sure made up for it ...

[NewcastleKEG]

http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_kpxrld7siS1qzddo2o1_400.jpg

http://gumbumper.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/jr-rider1.jpg

http://www.baconsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/IsiahRiderJerseyBaconSports.jpg

[Killakobe81]

Anfernee Hardaway

Thought of him, but injuries derailed him ...and I think OP said no injury guys ...

[jjktkk]

Eddie Jones...one of my favs, but always thought he could've been much better than what he was.

You could Blame Kobe for that.

[DeadlyDynasty]

Jamal Mashburn

[DeadlyDynasty]

You could Blame Kobe for that.

spurfan could find a way to blame Kobe for everything:lol

I blame Kobe for Malik Sealy's death.

[JamStone]

great points and he had that sweet turnaround even at UNC ...

I think as Heels fan you could see the hops, skills and length and you just wanted him to want "it" (greatness) more. Wouldnt say he didnt care just not enough for my tastes. he really had no holes offensively save maybe dribbling ...he could pass, post, shoot, dunk and even drive on bigger defenders. Defensively he could block shots, take charges and was agreat post defender. I also loved his ball dont lie chant and the championship wrestling belts ...

Here's a comparison to Rasheed Wallace. Manu Ginobili.

Now you would hear and read plenty of Spurs fans argue Manu is at the same level as a Kobe and a Dwyane Wade. And if he didn't put the team first and winning ahead of individual accomplishments or if he were the true franchise player of his own team, he would put up superstar numbers. But does anyone (Spurs fan or not) ever claim Ginobili wasted his talent by playing a secondary role? No, you're more likely to read arguments that he's HOF worthy. That's how I view Rasheed. Maybe it's because he got a bad reputation during his time at Portland. But I've always read he's a great teammate, he cares about the team and winning above anything else. It's interesting to think about when you compare him to someone like Manu, who is revered for the way he put the team above himself all these years.

Little known fact: in high school when Rasheed's team was blowing out the other team, he would take himself out for the entire second half of games so as to not show up the opposing team.

[jjktkk]

Jamal Mashburn

Too many injuries. Back in the day, I thought Dallas's trio of Kidd, Mash, and Jackson, we're gonna be the next dynasty.

[jjktkk]

spurfan could find a way to blame Kobe for everything:lol

I blame Kobe for Malik Sealy's death.

:lol

[mavs>spurs]

spurfan could find a way to blame Kobe for everything:lol

I blame Kobe for Malik Sealy's death.

bobby phills too. had kobe stayed in charlotte, they wouldn't have had any need for him and he would have never gotten in that car with wesley.

[DeadlyDynasty]

bobby phills too. had kobe stayed in charlotte, they wouldn't have had any need for him and he would have never gotten in that car with wesley.

:lol...he really is the Anti-Christ

[jjktkk]

Here's a comparison to Rasheed Wallace. Manu Ginobili.

Now you would hear and read plenty of Spurs fans argue Manu is at the same level as a Kobe and a Dwyane Wade. And if he didn't put the team first and winning ahead of individual accomplishments or if he were the true franchise player of his own team, he would put up superstar numbers. But does anyone (Spurs fan or not) ever claim Ginobili wasted his talent by playing a secondary role? No, you're more likely to read arguments that he's HOF worthy. That's how I view Rasheed. Maybe it's because he got a bad reputation during his time at Portland. But I've always read he's a great teammate, he cares about the team and winning above anything else. It's interesting to think about when you compare him to someone like Manu, who is revered for the way he put the team above himself all these years.

Little known fact: in high school when Rasheed's team was blowing out the other team, he would take himself out for the entire second half of games so as to not show up the opposing team.

Without knowing Sheed well, he didn't seem to respond to coaching too well. Plus, like you said, he could be lazy at times, show up outta of shape, etc... Homer aside, I can honestly say, I would never have to worry about Ginoboli coasting, being outta shape, etc....

[mavs>spurs]

i said that with a straight face brah

[DeadlyDynasty]

i said that with a straight face brah

shit happens when you're driving a Porsche 90+ mph brah

[baseline bum]

+1...he peaked in 2001:lol


What about Chris Webber? Great talent, many good seasons, but a career choke-artist

You know, Webber's the only one I saw doing shit for the Kings in that game 4 of the WCF once LA started making the run from 24 down. I don't think blowing that game and series should be put on him.

[JamStone]

Without knowing Sheed well, he didn't seem to respond to coaching too well. Plus, like you said, he could be lazy at times, show up outta of shape, etc... Homer aside, I can honestly say, I would never have to worry about Ginoboli coasting, being outta shape, etc....

Fair enough. But perception isn't always reality. A lot of the negative things about Rasheed were usually exaggerated. Not completely untrue, but exaggerated. He wasn't the perfect player with the work ethic of Kobe and the pure will of a hobbled Willis Reed. But he was no Ricky Davis either.

[baseline bum]

To go with a former Spur, Alvin Robertson. Think a hybrid of Ron Artest and Chris Paul on the defensive end with a decent ability to get to the basket. I always wonder how nasty the Spurs D would have looked with him and DRob together if he hadn't been such a drug addict and criminal.

[NewcastleKEG]

+1...he peaked in 2001:lol


What about Chris Webber? Great talent, many good seasons, but a career choke-artist
Let's be honest

He has 1 ring. Easy victory over the Nets in 2002
2003 he tears his knee vs Mavs
2004 he lost to Twolves who were best before injuries

Not "choke artist"

[jjktkk]

Fair enough. But perception isn't always reality. A lot of the negative things about Rasheed were usually exaggerated. Not completely untrue, but exaggerated. He wasn't the perfect player with the work ethic of Kobe and the pure will of a hobbled Willis Reed. But he was no Ricky Davis either.

Agree. I actually wouldn't mind the Spurs signing Sheed now. There were some rumors a couple weeks ago that Sheed was comptemplating unretiring.

[DeadlyDynasty]

Let's be honest

Ok.

http://www.bigblueinteractive.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/2590.jpg

[NewcastleKEG]

http://www.bigblueinteractive.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/2590.jpg
Guiseppe Part 2?

[baseline bum]

Let's be honest

He has 1 ring. Easy victory over the Nets in 2002
2003 he tears his knee vs Mavs
2004 he lost to Twolves who were best before injuries

Not "choke artist"

I agree. He wasn't the one who blew the free throws that would have eliminated Utah in 99 (that was Divac). He can hardly be blamed for losing in 2000 and 2001 to Lakers teams who were far superior. I don't know how Webber gets all the shit instead of Vlade for choking. Divac blew the Utah series, tapped the ball out to Horry, and then his dumbass fouled out in game 7 when the Kings needed him the most. The timeout was ridiculous, but that wasn't NBA and I'm not counting it.

[DeadlyDynasty]

Guiseppe Part 2?

says lefty part 2:lol

[Giuseppe]

Fine Thread.

[DeadlyDynasty]

I agree. He wasn't the one who blew the free throws that would have eliminated Utah in 99 (that was Divac). He can hardly be blamed for losing in 2000 and 2001 to Lakers teams who were far superior. I don't know how Webber gets all the shit instead of Vlade for choking. Divac blew the Utah series, tapped the ball out to Horry, and then his dumbass fouled out in game 7 when the Kings needed him the most. The timeout was ridiculous, but that wasn't NBA and I'm not counting it.

Webber was a 1st-half superstar in the playoffs, and too often went AWOL when needed most.

[jjktkk]

Ok.

http://www.bigblueinteractive.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/2590.jpg

http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/620/ssjm012349ers321sjpg900.jpg

[NewcastleKEG]

I agree. He wasn't the one who blew the free throws that would have eliminated Utah in 99 (that was Divac). He can hardly be blamed for losing in 2000 and 2001 to Lakers teams who were far superior. I don't know how Webber gets all the shit instead of Vlade for choking. Divac blew the Utah series, tapped the ball out to Horry, and then his dumbass fouled out in game 7 when the Kings needed him the most. The timeout was ridiculous, but that wasn't NBA and I'm not counting it.
I think Peja deservedly so, took the most blame. In terms of Webber it dropped him from Elite PF of his time to just another franchise player

I honestly think he will get into the NBA Hall of Fame. Easiest HOF of the major sports....NBA will put into consideration his college career & more importantly: impact on the game in the 90's, commercializing

[NewcastleKEG]

http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/620/ssjm012349ers321sjpg900.jpg
I'm glad we all agree on the MVP of the 2011 Giants

[DeadlyDynasty]

Webber's stats also dropped from the regular season to the playoffs during those Kings years. Great players elevate their games then.

[DeadlyDynasty]

I'm glad we all agree on the MVP of the 2011 Giants

Nobody in the history of the internets has been more butthurt than you over a single event...it's pretty much a certainty that you're one of the people who sent him death threats:lol

You seriously need to find a detachment from the sports world or you're going to end up doing irreparable harm to yourself and your loved ones.

PM me if you want to talk about this in private. I'm a medic and I'm used to helping people in times of crisis.

[NewcastleKEG]

Webber's stats also dropped from the regular season to the playoffs during those Kings years. Great players elevate their games then.
His PPG did not go down except for final playoff year with Kings. Boards also stayed at double digits.

Peja was the guy that went from 20 per game in the regular season to 14 then 23 then 17 and finally 22 in 4 straight playoffs. So too inconsistent

Webber was the only matchup the Lakers couldn't deal with. He made up for his teams major disadvantage in talent compared to Lakers

[NewcastleKEG]

Nobody in the history of the internets has been more butthurt than you over a single event...it's pretty much a certainty that you're one of the people who sent him death threats:lol

You seriously need to find a detachment from the sports world or you're going to end up doing irreparable harm to yourself and your loved ones.

PM me if you want to talk about this in private. I'm a medic and I'm used to helping people in times of crisis.
Says the guy posting pictures of the game in other forums

[DeadlyDynasty]

His PPG did not go down except for final playoff year with Kings.

98-99: 20.0ppg, 13rpg. Playoffs: 14.8ppg, 9.4rpg
99-00: 24.5ppg, 10.5rpg. Playoffs: 24.4, 9.6
00-01: 27.1, 11.1. Playoffs: 23.3, 11.5
01-02: 24.5, 10.1. Playoffs: 23.7, 10.8
02-03: 23.0, 10.5. Playoffs (before injury): 23.7, 8.3
03-04: 18.6, 8.7. Playoffs: 18.4, 8.3

:rollin

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/webbech01.html

[baseline bum]

Webber's stats also dropped from the regular season to the playoffs during those Kings years. Great players elevate their games then.

Never said he was any kind of postseason assassin, but he's not Karl Malone blowing a bunch of free throws at the end of game 7 in Seattle, getting the ball stripped when a title was in his hands in game 6 vs Chicago, or scoring 8 points in elimination games two seasons in a row vs Portland.

[NewcastleKEG]

98-99: 20.0ppg, 13rpg. Playoffs: 14.8ppg, 9.4rpg
99-00: 24.5ppg, 10.5rpg. Playoffs: 24.4, 9.6
00-01: 27.1, 11.1. Playoffs: 23.3, 11.5
01-02: 24.5, 10.1. Playoffs: 23.7, 10.8
02-03: 23.0, 10.5. Playoffs (before injury): 23.7, 8.3
03-04: 18.6, 8.7. Playoffs: 18.4, 8.3

:rollin

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/webbech01.html
So he averaged 25 & 10.5 in the playoffs for 4+ seasons

[DeadlyDynasty]

His PPG did not go down except for final playoff year with Kings.

Care to explain why you're a liar, first?:lol

[DeadlyDynasty]

Never said he was any kind of postseason assassin, but he's not Karl Malone blowing a bunch of free throws at the end of game 7 in Seattle, getting the ball stripped when a title was in his hands in game 6 vs Chicago, or scoring 8 points in elimination games two seasons in a row vs Portland.

Fair enough, Malone aggressively choked, Webber passively choked

[NewcastleKEG]

Care to explain why you're a liar, first?:lol
It remained consistently between 23 & 27. That's two extra shots a game

[FkLA]

Probably not the biggest disappointment but I always thought Jim Jackson couldve been much better. Mustve had an attitude problem cause I always remember him struggling to find a team to sign him but always performed well for the teams that took that chance. That love triangle ordeal with Kidd mustve stuck with him or something.

[FkLA]

Also Bonzi Wells, still remember that Kings-Spurs series were he went apeshit. Always seemed unmotivated and out of shape though unfortunately.

[Brazil]

Boris Diaw

[benefactor]

Gotta go with Marbury...or Sprewell.

[Muser]

Shaq

[resistanze]

Shaq. Should've been a top 3 player all-time. Gaining 50 lbs in the offseason and rapping was too important.

I always thought Darko Milicic had the tools to be a DPOY All-Star player.

[Sportstudi]

Shaq

You beat me to it. I was really surprised that nobody has mentioned him so far. He could have been a top 3 player easily if he weren't such a lazy fat ass. HE was so dominating in his prime, just unreal. But well, as resistanze wrote, eating too many burgers in the offseason and rapping was probably more important...

[resistanze]

Shaq
Beat me to it as well :tu

[Muser]

If he had the work ethic of someone like Kobe then there's no doubt in my mind he would of been the GOAT.

[JoeTait75]

Shaq was the dominant player in the league for several years and the dominant player on a team that won three straight LOBs. I know his work ethic could be questioned at times but calling him a waste of talent is pretty tough.

[wanggi]

Danny Manning and Tom Gugliotta...For the Suns fans.

[resistanze]

Shaq was the dominant player in the league for several years and the dominant player on a team that won three straight LOBs. I know his work ethic could be questioned at times but calling him a waste of talent is pretty tough.

It's all relative, imo. Many of the guys listed here even if they lived up to their potential, wouldn't be considers top 10 players of all time. For Shaq, he is in all likelihood a top 10 player, but we're talking about the potential he had for being better than Kareem. He could've also been the greatest Laker of all-time. I think when you look at these missed opportunities, you have to be greatly disappointed.

[sabar]

Without a doubt, Len Bias

[pass1st]

Shaq had the potential to shit on MJs career and still be in the league today if he wanted. All he had to do was work on his body and FTs.

If he shot 75% at the line, that's like 5ppg more and if he worked on his defense he wouldn't be a foul magnet. If he took better care of himself he wouldn't be injured as much. You're looking at a guy with physical gifts that put LBJ to shame.

Even though he was one of the best, there is no excuse for him not becoming the best.

[baseline bum]

Wow, no Spurs fan agrees on Robertson? That guy was a fucking beast.

[pass1st]

Wow, no Spurs fan agrees on Robertson? That guy was a fucking beast.

If only he was an atheist

[clambake]

roy tarpley. he was a godzilla unstoppable beast.

[stxspurs]

Harold Miner
Sebastian Telfair
Adam Morrison

[DPG21920]

If you claim Shaq is a waste IMO you have to put guys like Dirk on there too (which I think is silly). Dirk has insane talent, but was ok with being a mediocre rebounder, sup par defender & for as sick as he is he only has one title? If he would have put in the work overall he could have been so much more and he's had very good teams to work with.

[mercos]

Vince Carter. He had a pretty good career, but with his physical gifts he could have been a top 10 all time player. One can only wonder what he would have been able to accomplish if he had Kobe's work ethic.

[jacobdrj]

Although he won a ring and has been a good player, Rasheed Wallace could've been so much more dominant than he was. He could do it all, but didn't have the right attitude/mindset for the game much of his career.

I think a good coach would have gotten more out of him had they recognized that he didn't want to be the man:

Had he been in the 2nd or 3rd option role right from the start, used more as the facilitator instead of the 1st option on the block and at the 3 point line, kind of like how he was used BEFORE he was featured in the Pistons' offense in 2004 and with Boston as a bench guy in 2010 he would have flourished...

With all the talent on that ole' Portland Jailblazers team, he could of, and SHOULD have been used with the mentality of a 2nd or 3rd scoring option, AND the defensive anchor...

Adleman, Jackson and Carlise come to mind as coaches who might have gotten more out of Sheed...

[resistanze]

If you claim Shaq is a waste IMO you have to put guys like Dirk on there too (which I think is silly). Dirk has insane talent, but was ok with being a mediocre rebounder, sup par defender & for as sick as he is he only has one title? If he would have put in the work overall he could have been so much more and he's had very good teams to work with.

I see your point, but IMO if we go that route we can basically claim that if every player could eliminate their weaknesses, they would be the greatest (rendering this thread moot). Personally, Shaq's shitty FT shooting and other basketball flaws are a reasonable tradeoff considering what he brought, well for anyone who isn't superhuman. Similary, if Dirk became a great defender and an elite rebounder (can argue he was in the playoffs), he'd probably be the most complete player in history.

My beef with Shaq has to do more with him being lazy, not caring for his body as he should have, and his personality/conflict issues that broke up a dynasty. He has four rings, so he definately isn't a failure by any means. But personally I think he had the tools to at least be remembered as the greatest center of all-time over Kareem and Wilt.

[lefty]

Derrick Coleman
Kenny Anderson
Roy Tarpley

[jeebus]

Tracy McGrady. He's only 32 but he's been a non issue for a few years now. Athleticism only gets you so far before you have to rely more on skills when you get older. Shame.

[cheguevara]

Kwame Brown. Jordan singlehandedly ruined him.

[jacobdrj]

Ron Artest:
He was a defensive beast, and early on, a prolific scorer... He had the physical gifts to be a GOAT contender, even if he wasn't clutch... Instead he is forever the guy who broke up the Pacers, and got by as an also-ran with the Lakers...

[Giuseppe]

Ron Artest:
He was a defensive beast, and early on, a prolific scorer... He had the physical gifts to be a GOAT contender, even if he wasn't clutch... Instead he is forever the guy who broke up the Pacers, and got by as an also-ran with the Lakers...

...though if he don't 1.) shower with Kobe in Boston in the Summer of '08 & B.) break Pierce's ass 2 Summers later I'm sittin' here with my dick in my hand at:::

Kobe: 4

Duncan: 4

DUNCAN: 1

[BUMP]

Definitely Sheed imho.

He had the potential to be the greatest power forward in the NBA. I remember in Portland he would sit on the block and do the same spin move three times in a row, scoring each time and then just sit out at the 3 point line. Even though Jammy said he cares a lot about team accomplishments, being unselfish can still hurt your team when you're as good as he was

[JamStone]

Kwame Brown. Jordan singlehandedly ruined him.

Or he wasn't all that great to begin with and Jordan's mistake was drafting him #1 overall when he did. Kwame had great size and plus athleticism. But he wasn't all that skilled or naturally talented, just big and athletic. And then he had that dreaded "small hands" thing about him for a big man. Maybe Jordan did ruin him. But I think his ceiling of potential wasn't quite as high as some people had expected to begin with.

[stretch]

PG - Steve Francis, Sebastian Telfair
SG - J.R. Smith, Isaiah Rider
SF - Tracy McGrady, Antoine Walker
PF - Tim Thomas, Rasheed Wallace
C - Roy Tarpley, Eddy Curry

[stretch]

Kwame Brown. Jordan singlehandedly ruined him.

burrito-breath with another awful take

what a shocker :wow

[mindcrime]

Webber's stats also dropped from the regular season to the playoffs during those Kings years. Great players elevate their games then.

So why does bone on bone, AKA 6/24 play like shit in the NBA's biggest stage?

[Dr Cox]

vince carter....could of been alot better than he is/was

[BUMP]

And JR Smith always seems to pop up on these lists and i disagree.

He's athletic as fuck and has a nice shot but that's about it. People say he's as talented as Kobe and that's ridiculous. The guy really has no go to move of any sort just the same predictable step back jumper.

[MavDynasty]

Nigga be stupid as fuck too. He would be on the streets if he wasn't gifted basketball talent

[stretch]

And JR Smith always seems to pop up on these lists and i disagree.

He's athletic as fuck and has a nice shot but that's about it. People say he's as talented as Kobe and that's ridiculous. The guy really has no go to move of any sort just the same predictable step back jumper.

He's probably not as talented as Kobe, but not far off.

His issue is that he doesnt know how to use his talents. He only uses that one move because its the only one he probably has really worked on. Imagine if he had Kobe's work ethic... I think we would see him doing a lot more amazing things.

[Trill Clinton]

Wow, no Spurs fan agrees on Robertson? That guy was a fucking beast.

Never got to see him play but my uncle would agree with you.

[MR.SILVER&BLack]

i think Emeka Okafor is a waste of talent. hasnt done shit after winning ROY.

[DisAsTerBot]

has vince carter been mentioned yet?

[BUMP]

He's probably not as talented as Kobe, but not far off.

His issue is that he doesnt know how to use his talents. He only uses that one move because its the only one he probably has really worked on. Imagine if he had Kobe's work ethic... I think we would see him doing a lot more amazing things.

imho you call it talent i just call it athleticism.

Obviously if he worked on more moves he'd be extremely good. But you can say that about a lot of guys in the NBA who were just raw athletes (Ben Wallace, Shannon Brown, Jamario Moon, etc.)

That's the difference between a JR Smith and a Rasheed Wallace. I've seen Wallace do the exact same move, the opponent knows its coming, and he still scores everytime. But then he'll just settle at the 3 point line the rest of the game. There's no move that I feel that Smith can do consistently well just make some athletic plays and be a pretty good spot up shooter

[JamStone]

I think it's hard just to assume a player could be as talented as another player if he just worked harder on his game. Athleticism can take a player only so far and isn't always the true measure of potential. Some players just have a natural feel for the game that allows them a higher ceiling. I look at a guy like Corey Maggette, who had all the necessary physical gifts to be a superstar and from what I've heard has a good work ethic. But he didn't have a natural talent for basketball to cultivate to be even like Vince, much less be a player like Kobe. Dwight Howard could work on his game 24/7 for years and still never have the offensives skill Hakeem had, even though Dwight has the athleticism, agility, and quickness that would make you think he has the "potential" for it.

Talent isn't just athleticism. Maybe JR Smith just doesn't have the natural talent to have the wide range of offensives skills great wing players possess. He has the size, athleticism, and jumper, but I'm not convinced that even if he had great work ethic and really worked hard on his game, that he'd be one if the best players in the league. There's more to talent than just size and athleticism. There are intangibles that go beyond just working on your game.

[stretch]

imho you call it talent i just call it athleticism.

Obviously if he worked on more moves he'd be extremely good. But you can say that about a lot of guys in the NBA who were just raw athletes (Ben Wallace, Shannon Brown, Jamario Moon, etc.)

That's the difference between a JR Smith and a Rasheed Wallace. I've seen Wallace do the exact same move, the opponent knows its coming, and he still scores everytime. But then he'll just settle at the 3 point line the rest of the game. There's no move that I feel that Smith can do consistently well just make some athletic plays and be a pretty good spot up shooter

I don't think shooting ability, passing ability, finishing ability, defensive ability, and ball handling ability has a whole lot to do with athleticism. He has shown an ability to be in the upper echelon of players in all of those areas. Unfortunately, he rarely uses the neccesary smarts to utilize all those things well, but he certainly has shown many flashes of being able to do all those things exceedingly well. He's not like Shannon Brown or Moon or as Jamstone mentioned, Corey Maggette, who are all freakish athletes, but look completely unnatural playing the game of basketball. Smith is very smooth and natural looking when he plays the game, to go along with his incredible athletic ability.

I don't think talent is what holds JR Smith back. What he has between the ears (or lack of) is what holds him back.

[stretch]

has vince carter been mentioned yet?

nope, you are the first

[JamStone]

I think in a lot of sports, especially at the highest professional levels, the mental aspect of the game is extremely important. Having all the talent in the world carries a player to a certain point but can be sabotaged by the player's brain. I mentioned a guy like that in this thread, Ricky Davis. Ricky was kind of like JR Smith that way, but I think Ricky actually had more talent. But his brain got in the way.

[stretch]

Talent isn't just athleticism. Maybe JR Smith just doesn't have the natural talent to have the wide range of offensives skills great wing players possess. He has the size, athleticism, and jumper, but I'm not convinced that even if he had great work ethic and really worked hard on his game, that he'd be one if the best players in the league. There's more to talent than just size and athleticism. There are intangibles that go beyond just working on your game.

I think JR has a fantastic skillset too. IMO he's stupid and lazy, which is what holds him back.

[stretch]

I think in a lot of sports, especially at the highest professional levels, the mental aspect of the game is extremely important. Having all the talent in the world carries a player to a certain point but can be sabotaged by the player's brain. I mentioned a guy like that in this thread, Ricky Davis. Ricky was kind of like JR Smith that way, but I think Ricky actually had more talent. But his brain got in the way.

Ooh, I forgot about Ricky Davis. He was definitely a great talent too, but lazy, like you said. But I agree completely with your post. Most people think there are just two aspects, talent, and athletic ability. But there is a third, which is mental, which is what is lacking from most of the players listed in this thread.

[JamStone]

The "feel for the game" that I talked about is something that can't necessarily be measured. There's a reason why some of the greatest players ever to play the game, like Magic and Bird and even Duncan to an extent, were not the athletic marvels Jordan and LeBron and Wilt and Shaq are/were. There are intangible things great players have. JR doesn't possess those intangibles no matter how hard he works on his game.

[JamStone]

Ooh, I forgot about Ricky Davis. He was definitely a great talent too, but lazy, like you said. But I agree completely with your post. Most people think there are just two aspects, talent, and athletic ability. But there is a third, which is mental, which is what is lacking from most of the players listed in this thread.

Ricky may have been lazy but I don't think that's the main reason he wasn't a much better player. His downfall had way more to do with the fact that he was extremely stupid.

[Leetonidas]

Has anyone brought up Jamal Tinsley yet? Dude has some badass games but he never seemed to get anywhere and ended up having a shitty end to his career (unless he's still playing and I'm not aware :lol ) but I remember watching Pacer games back in the day thinking this dude was gonna be a stud and nothing really happened

[z0sa]

Vince Carter. He had a pretty good career, but with his physical gifts he could have been a top 10 all time player. One can only wonder what he would have been able to accomplish if he had Kobe's work ethic.

VC should top everyone's list, or be close to it IMHO..

and I strongly disagree with those mentioning Shaq.. there's a difference between having some wasted talent and being THE biggest waste of talent.

[JamStone]

I believe Tinsley is an end of the bench back-up with Utah, and he's gotten some time because of injuries. He had nice vision. Needed to be quicker to become an elite PG. He was too pudgy and thus slow for the position.

Speaking of which, what about Baron Davis? Imagine if his playing weight was around 205-210 instead of 225+. Could have avoided those back problems. He was a beast when he was healthy.

[JamStone]

VC should top everyone's list, or be close to it IMHO..

and I strongly disagree with those mentioning Shaq.. there's a difference between having some wasted talent and being THE biggest waste of talent.

In the same vein then, Vince shouldn't be at the top either. He put up very good to great seasons. He's had a long NBA career with 8 all star selections. And statistically, he's a borderline HOFer. Did he underachieve? Yup. But the "biggest" waste of talent should probably be a guy with a world of talent and didn't do shit with it.

[z0sa]

In the same vein then, Vince shouldn't be at the top either. He put up very good to great seasons. He's had a long NBA career with 8 all star selections. And statistically, he's a borderline HOFer. Did he underachieve? Yup. But the "biggest" waste of talent should probably be a guy with a world of talent and didn't do shit with it.

They aren't in the same vein at all.

I don't think Shaq wasted hardly any talent, actually; he WAS overweight but he actually used it to his advantage a la Barkley many times. I only mentioned him because of other posters bringing him up.. in reality, he wasted very little - leading a team to a 3peat is no small task. I don't agree with some of how the arguments against him are being gauged, either. For example, being bad at FTs isn't necessarily proof of a waste of talent - many people have confirmed Shaq practiced the shit out of FTs through his career.

VC consciously, selfishly did not try his hardest in Toronoto and likely, in manyother points of his career.. his athleticism was unmatched, and he could've contended for the GOAT IMHO, but he CHOSE not to take advantage of his incredible abilities. Extremely mentally weak. You've completely ignored this aspect by comparing the two.

[JamStone]

They aren't in the same vein at all.

I don't think Shaq wasted hardly any talent, actually; he WAS overweight but he actually used it to his advantage a la Barkley many times. I only mentioned him because of other posters bringing him up.. in reality, he wasted very little. I don't agree with some of how the arguments against him are being gauged, either. For example, being bad at FTs isn't necessarily proof of a waste of talent - many people have confirmed Shaq practiced the shit out of FTs through his career.

VC consciously, selfishly did not try his hardest in Toronoto and likely, in other points of his career.. his athleticism was unmatched, and he could've contended for the GOAT IMHO, but he CHOSE not to take advantage. Extremely mentally weak. You've completely ignored this aspect by comparing the two.

You brought up the notion of "biggest" waste of talent compared to wasting "some" talent. Now say if Vince never averaged more than 10 points in a season and then only lasted in the league for 4 years, then you're talking about a huge waste of talent. I'm suggesting that at least Vince took advantage of some of that talent. Wouldn't the "biggest" waste of talent be more like a player who didn't take advantage of his potential and talent hardly at all, even if his ceiling of potential wasn't as high as Vince? For example, how about Pervis Ellison? #1 overall pick who proved his worth in college and in the NCAA tournament before college basketball got diluted with high school kids and underclassmen leaving for the draft. Ellison might not have had the ceiling Vince had, but he didn't even come close to tapping into his talent and potential as sn NBA player. That makes more sense than Vince under your idea of being the "biggest" waste of talent.

[BUMP]

I look at a guy like Corey Maggette, who had all the necessary physical gifts to be a superstar and from what I've heard has a good work ethic. But he didn't have a natural talent for basketball to cultivate to be even like Vince, much less be a player like Kobe.

I can't tell if you're arguing with me or not because this is exactly what I'm saying.

There are two types of players being discussed in this thread. Raw athletes (Ben Wallace, Jamario Moon, Samuel Dalembert, etc) and "wasted talents" (McGrady, Rasheed, Coleman, etc.)

The raw athletes are the ones with freakish athleticism, who aren't known to be lazy, but just don't have a great skillset. The wasted talents are the ones that do have the skillset of elite players but lack something mentally that keeps them from performing on that level consistenly. Some of it is laziness, some of it is other things.

I feel like JR Smith falls somewhere in the middle of the two categories

[z0sa]

Agree to disagree, I suppose.. our criteria are simply much different.

Those with the most talent who did not utilize it to the max deserve to be at the top of the list. I don't care about the supposed speculative disparity - if VC could've been the goat, but barely or doesn't crack the top 50, then he's easily at or near the top for me. Additionally, the amount of hype his incredible athleticism received most definitely factors in.

Conversely, random supposedly talented college kid who never did well for long at the pros means very little in my book. I'm swayed more by players such as VC, who did well at the highest levels but could have been the best. Which is exactly why Shaq doesn't belong anywhere near the same category as VC - he led a team to a 3pt, put up gaudy playoff numbers and was the best player in the league at least 1-2 years.

PS Pervis Ellison suffered lots of injuries and so IMHO would be disqualified from this discussion.

[baseline bum]

I believe Tinsley is an end of the bench back-up with Utah, and he's gotten some time because of injuries. He had nice vision. Needed to be quicker to become an elite PG. He was too pudgy and thus slow for the position.

Speaking of which, what about Baron Davis? Imagine if his playing weight was around 205-210 instead of 225+. Could have avoided those back problems. He was a beast when he was healthy.

Good call; Baron Davis may be the most athletic point guard I have ever seen, and no one lately other than CP3 can go into beast mode at Davis' level when he was motivated. That guy should have been MVP of the league at some point of his career.

[JamStone]

Agree to disagree, I suppose.. our criteria are simply much different.

Those with the most talent who did not utilize it to the max deserve to be at the top of the list. I don't care about the supposed speculative disparity - if VC could've been the goat, but barely or doesn't crack the top 50, then he's easily at or near the top for me. Additionally, the amount of hype his incredible athleticism received most definitely factors in.

Conversely, random supposedly talented college kid who never did well for long at the pros means very little in my book. I'm swayed more by players such as VC, who did well at the highest levels but could have been the best. Which is exactly why Shaq doesn't belong anywhere near the same category as VC - he led a team to a 3pt, put up gaudy playoff numbers and was the best player in the league at least 1-2 years.

PS Pervis Ellison suffered lots of injuries and so IMHO would be disqualified from this discussion.

Fair enough with Ellison suffering injuries, although I don't believe injuries were the the only or biggest reason Ellison didn't become a much better player than he ended up being.

Just as you suggested that Shaq wasn't the type of player who wasted a lot of talent, I think similarly about Vince. Vince could have and should have accomplished more as a player. But it's not like he was a bum in his career or didn't ever come close to reaching his potential. Again, he still had a really good career and is a borderline HOFer based on his career numbers. And with Vince, it's only arguable that he could have gone down as a possible GOAT.

We could go down a list of names of players who at some point in their earlier careers were considered to have the potential to go down as all time greats, not just HOFers. Perhaps look at a guy like Stephon Marbury. He had the type of talent and game to go down as a top 5 PG of all time, maybe higher. He was Derrick Rose before Derrick Rose. He also had a pretty strong career statistically. Injuries weren't part of his demise. First, he couldn't stand being a second banana to KG to allow the Timberwolves to become an elite team. And while he would consistently put up big individual numbers, he failed to consistently make his teams better. And then he went crazy. He's more of a wasted talent to me than Vince. Or look at Glenn Robinson. Again, also put up some very good seasons and had a relatively good NBA career. When he entered the league, there were NBA experts and pundits talking about him being a HOFer even before he played a single game in the NBA. But he never really came close to reaching expectations despite putting up some good seasons. More of a wasted talent than Vince imo.

Could Vince have gone down as one of the greatest NBA players ever? Yeah, perhaps. But his career was still very good when you look at it. So I guess I just disagree that Vince should head the list or be at or near the top. Whether you think he was lazy or unmotivated or simply just never lived up to the hype, I think there are probably a lot more players who wasted more talent in their careers than him.

[JamStone]

Good call; Baron Davis may be the most athletic point guard I have ever seen, and no one lately other than CP3 can go into beast mode at Davis' level when he was motivated. That guy should have been MVP of the league at some point of his career.

Yeah, and I realize Baron has gone through his share of injuries. But I also view his injuries differently than guys like Grant Hill or Penny or Oden. Baron's injuries seem to be more directly with weight issues where he could have done something to either avoid or mitigate them. When a player like Baron could have done something to help prevent injuries, like Shaq, that's just as much on the player as it is the injury itself, as opposed to career ending or career altering injury like Hill and Oden where those players could have done very little to prevent them.

[z0sa]

Could Vince have gone down as one of the greatest NBA players ever? Yeah, perhaps. But his career was still very good when you look at it. So I guess I just disagree that Vince should head the list or be at or near the top. Whether you think he was lazy or unmotivated or simply just never lived up to the hype, I think there are probably a lot more players who wasted more talent in their careers than him.

Although I disagree about he and Shaq being in the same boat, I can definitely see your point here. It IS speculation that he could have been a GOAT candidate, but, so is this whole thread. :lol :toast

[JayTheClown]

PG - Steve Francis, Sebastian Telfair
SG - J.R. Smith, Isaiah Rider
SF - Tracy McGrady, Antoine Walker
PF - Tim Thomas, Rasheed Wallace
C - Roy Tarpley, Eddy Curry

Good lineup
I would put Isaiah starting over J.R imo.

[mavs>spurs]

man baron's back issues aren't because he was some fat lazy piece of shit. dude played best at that weight, he was still quick as hell yet big and strong enough to bully pg's. you don't dunk and play with the athleticism baron did if you're just some fatass who needed to lose weight and blame him for his injuries. some people are just prone to certain injuries like baron and tmac. it's a trajedy and for you to sit there and say he had something to do with it is stupid. I guess nfl running backs who are all 225+ should all get injured too. dumbass.

[mavs>spurs]

Baron had talent to be a top 10 pg of all time and his career was a trajedy really. But this isn't a guy who's so fat that he threw out his back to me

http://nohornetsbrasil.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/baron-davis.jpg

Dude was just built muscular.

[JamStone]

Baron would have still had a massive size and strength advantage at the PG position at 210. He ballooned up to 225+, probably more in some of those seasons. It didn't hurt his athleticism enough to make him not explosive. He was still explosive. You can be fat and still be athletic and explosive, like NFL defensive linemen. Shaun Rogers was one of the most explosive DT I've ever seen playing at 6'4 and 350+. But when you're that big, you will be prone to injury.

Baron could have done just as much damage if he stayed at a playing weight 10-15 pounds lighter than where he usually was, and it would have likely helped him to stay healthier throughout his career. I do believe that extra weight was related to his back issues.

[mavs>spurs]

DT's don't run and dunk like baron davis. There is a HUGE difference between being athletic and being explosive off the line for 2 yards. Big time fail. You can't be a fatass carrying around so much extra weight that it causes you to injure your back and do the things baron did on the court. Baron was all muscle and probably the most explosive player in the entire league before his injury.

[JamStone]

There were times where Baron Davis' weight wasn't a big issue. Earlier on in his career, mostly with the Hornets, he played probably closer to 210-215. Still had the size and strength advantage. But he did get fat later. That's when we saw him getting injured more and more.

http://www.iamagm.com/news/2010/08/26/baron.davis.45.pounds.overweight


Davis, a Hall of Fame talent who’s spent half his career underachieving, can put L.A. in the playoffs if he’s engaged or in the dumpster if he loafs. Midsummer reports weren’t good, as sources said the 6-3 point guard was up to 260 pounds, 45 pounds above his listed playing weight.

[Killakobe81]

Baron would have still had a massive size and strength advantage at the PG position at 210. He ballooned up to 225+, probably more in some of those seasons. It didn't hurt his athleticism enough to make him not explosive. He was still explosive. You can be fat and still be athletic and explosive, like NFL defensive linemen. Shaun Rogers was one of the most explosive DT I've ever seen playing at 6'4 and 350+. But when you're that big, you will be prone to injury.

Baron could have done just as much damage if he stayed at a playing weight 10-15 pounds lighter than where he usually was, and it would have likely helped him to stay healthier throughout his career. I do believe that extra weight was related to his back issues.

I agree with Jam ... just like with shaq just a10-15 lb difference could have a great effect on easing stress on your knees and back.
As for Davis if he never blew out his knee at UCLA he would of been even MORE explosive than he was in his NBA prime. He did a dunk at the UCLA version of "midnight madness" that was one of the sickest I have ever seen for a guy his height ...

[Killakobe81]

imho you call it talent i just call it athleticism.

Obviously if he worked on more moves he'd be extremely good. But you can say that about a lot of guys in the NBA who were just raw athletes (Ben Wallace, Shannon Brown, Jamario Moon, etc.)

That's the difference between a JR Smith and a Rasheed Wallace. I've seen Wallace do the exact same move, the opponent knows its coming, and he still scores everytime. But then he'll just settle at the 3 point line the rest of the game. There's no move that I feel that Smith can do consistently well just make some athletic plays and be a pretty good spot up shooter

Obviously when folks discuss Smith's potential the see the effortless jumpshots and the amazing athleticism. Plus in the playoffs, JVG raved about how underrated he is a passer/playmaker. Sure, maybe with hardwork he is still no Kobe or Manu, but I think with the right coaching and willingness to be coached he would of been fairly close.

[mavs>spurs]

I agree with Jam ... just like with shaq just a10-15 lb difference could have a great effect on easing stress on your knees and back.
As for Davis if he never blew out his knee at UCLA he would of been even MORE explosive than he was in his NBA prime. He did a dunk at the UCLA version of "midnight madness" that was one of the sickest I have ever seen for a guy his height ...

http://www.ibiblio.org/craig/draft/1999_draft/Players/davis.html

baron davis was 6'2 190 playing at UCLA so it wasn't weight that was responsible for the knee blowout. That sort of athleticism puts extreme stress on your joints, that's why he blew his knee out.

[Killakobe81]

I see your point, but IMO if we go that route we can basically claim that if every player could eliminate their weaknesses, they would be the greatest (rendering this thread moot). Personally, Shaq's shitty FT shooting and other basketball flaws are a reasonable tradeoff considering what he brought, well for anyone who isn't superhuman. Similary, if Dirk became a great defender and an elite rebounder (can argue he was in the playoffs), he'd probably be the most complete player in history.

My beef with Shaq has to do more with him being lazy, not caring for his body as he should have, and his personality/conflict issues that broke up a dynasty. He has four rings, so he definately isn't a failure by any means. But personally I think he had the tools to at least be remembered as the greatest center of all-time over Kareem and Wilt.

I didnt mention Shaq, because this is a good discussion that I did not want devolving in to he carried Kobe ...pissing contest. But resistanze is 100% correct. Shaq's ceiling if he maxed out his skill level and dedication was higher than MJ's or Kareem's. I watched Shaq play from his 2nd year at LSU back when he was skinny.And this dude had a size/speed ratio that only Lebron really could beat out of any player I have seen with my own eyes. To be that big and to have the quick feet and power he had ...Shaq should of been the future of the position. But instead he made excuses that he was putting on weight to handle the hard fouls (Oh, dont get me wrong he got hacked) instead of staying light on his feet so he could avoid them (you cant hit what you can't catch).

Also the FT shooting and limited range are indictments as well ... the fact that he is still a top 6-15 player all-time is no shame. But Shaq left a lot of rings, stats and legacy on the table by NOT maximizing ALL of his talent.

[mavs>spurs]

There were times where Baron Davis' weight wasn't a big issue. Earlier on in his career, mostly with the Hornets, he played probably closer to 210-215. Still had the size and strength advantage. But he did get fat later. That's when we saw him getting injured more and more.

http://www.iamagm.com/news/2010/08/26/baron.davis.45.pounds.overweight

that link is from 2010. it's no secret that present day baron is unmotivated and doesn't give a shit. baron was always injured back when he was with the hornets, playing at 210-215 as you said. hell, baron's first injury came as a skinny 190 pound college point guard. leads me to think it had nothing to do with the weight at all, its the extreme stress that the joints of players like him are under. it was the torque put on his joints and body from all the acrobatic maneuvers. that's why wade is always injured too. players like that tend to get injured.

[Killakobe81]

http://www.ibiblio.org/craig/draft/1999_draft/Players/davis.html

baron davis was 6'2 190 playing at UCLA so it wasn't weight that was responsible for the knee blowout. That sort of athleticism puts extreme stress on your joints, that's why he blew his knee out.

Wasnt arguing that, he was pretty skinny back then. I only brought it up to point out that the kid was even MORE explosive in HS at Crossroads and before he blew out his knee (as a freshman IIRC) ...

The guy was not just a good for HS monster. Though he lacked Kidd's vision watching them both play in HS Davis looked liked the better "natural" talent.

[mavs>spurs]

Wasnt arguing that, he was pretty skinny back then. I only brought it up to point out that the kid was even MORE explosive in HS at Crossroads and before he blew out his knee (as a freshman IIRC) ...

The guy was not just a good for HS monster. Though he lacked Kidd's vision watching them both play in HS Davis looked liked the better "natural" talent.

well you can't agree with jamstone and now agree with me. i'm saying that it's his extreme athleticism and style of play that put him at higher risk of injury, not his weight. the UCLA reference is more evidence of that.

anyway i just hate to see people talk shit out of their ass, baron had hall of fame potential and his career was really a trajedy for basketball fans, it's not right to sit there and say something along the lines of his injuries were his own fault. if that were the case, lebron would have gotten injured by now playing at his weight.

[Killakobe81]

The "feel for the game" that I talked about is something that can't necessarily be measured. There's a reason why some of the greatest players ever to play the game, like Magic and Bird and even Duncan to an extent, were not the athletic marvels Jordan and LeBron and Wilt and Shaq are/were. There are intangible things great players have. JR doesn't possess those intangibles no matter how hard he works on his game.

Great points. It's also Why Kidd's and Nash have managed to stay relevant ...(well for Kidd at least until this year)

[Latarian Milton]

7'6 chump was da biggest waste of all time tbh, not a talent at all but a simple pure waste

[JamStone]

DT's don't run and dunk like baron davis. There is a HUGE difference between being athletic and being explosive off the line for 2 yards. Big time fail. You can't be a fatass carrying around so much extra weight that it causes you to injure your back and do the things baron did on the court. Baron was all muscle and probably the most explosive player in the entire league before his injury.

injuries.

He already had knee issues since his college days, as you guys mentioned. At 6'3 and making the type of explosive and athletic plays Baron made, do you think playing at 215 versus 225-240 makes a difference to the knees and back? Jumping and landing with extra weight puts a shitload of stress on a lot of areas of the body, specifically the knees and back.

Who has a better chance at staying healthy? A 6'3 guard at 215 or a 6'3 guard at 225+ doing the type of athletic plays Baron was known for?

And as I posted above, there were some reports that Baron ballooned up to 260 at one point a few years ago. If you want to argue that he wasn't fat when he was still able to be athletic and explosive, uh ok. I'm saying to prevent further injuries, losing weight, whether it's fat or muscle mass would have helped him to stay healthier throughout his career. It's something he should have had control over. If he did everything he could to keep his weight down and still kept getting injured, I couldn't really criticize him. But it's been rumored and reported over the years about his struggles to keep his weight at a reasonable range for him to prevent injuries.

[mavs>spurs]

LOL why do you keep bringing up 2010 baron? his career was fucking over by then. that was over a decade after the injuries began. the dude was getting injured at 190, he would have gotten injured at 210 too. it was his style of play and the stress his body was under from the extreme athleticism as you now finally acknowledge. muscle acts as a shock absorber for the body believe it or not and is NOT the same as being 225 fat. baron was always ripped.

http://www.coreconcepts.com.sg/mcr/muscles-your-shock-absorbers/

"When we think shock absorbers, we usually imagine things that cushion or push back. But muscles don’t cushion or push back, they contract. So how do they absorb shock? Muscles absorb shock because they usually work in pairs to move our joints. By contracting, they can slow down a joint moving in the opposite direction."

[JamStone]

well you can't agree with jamstone and now agree with me. i'm saying that it's his extreme athleticism and style of play that put him at higher risk of injury, not his weight. the UCLA reference is more evidence of that.

anyway i just hate to see people talk shit out of their ass, baron had hall of fame potential and his career was really a trajedy for basketball fans, it's not right to sit there and say something along the lines of his injuries were his own fault. if that were the case, lebron would have gotten injured by now playing at his weight.

Do you not see the difference between being 6'8 and 260 and 6'3 and 260? Plus you add the fact that Baron already had knee issues, you should know extra weight made him more injury prone. LeBron hasn't blown out his knee to make it as much of a concern. If LeBron starts suffering knee and back injuries, he better lose weight too.

[Killakobe81]

well you can't agree with jamstone and now agree with me. i'm saying that it's his extreme athleticism that put him at higher risk of injury, not his weight. the UCLA reference is more evidence of that.

anyway i just hate to see people talk shit out of their ass, baron had hall of fame potential and his career was really a trajedy for basketball fans, it's not right to sit there and say something along the lines of his injuries were his own fault. if that were the case, lebron would have gotten injured by now playing at his weight.

Huh? what I said was:
1. I agree that although I'm no doctor .... I think excess weight can NOT be good for your knees or back long-term.
2. Davis was skinny when he blew out his knee so that had nothing to do with weight. However when you ALREADY have injuries to a your knee and back how could excess weight ...help?
3. BD if he never had the 1st knee injury maybe he never battles weight iand some of his injury issues ...because if so he had potential to be a HOF'er.

Dont get me wrong he was nevera agreat shooter. But Davis was clutch had very good (not great) vision and could even post-up smaller Pg's

[mavs>spurs]

Do you not see the difference between being 6'8 and 260 and 6'3 and 260? Plus you add the fact that Baron already had knee issues, you should know extra weight made him more injury prone. LeBron hasn't blown out his knee to make it as much of a concern. If LeBron starts suffering knee and back injuries, he better lose weight too.

do you not see the difference between 2001 and 2010?

[mavs>spurs]

LOL why do you keep bringing up 2010 baron? his career was fucking over by then. that was over a decade after the injuries began. the dude was getting injured at 190, he would have gotten injured at 210 too. it was his style of play and the stress his body was under from the extreme athleticism as you now finally acknowledge. muscle acts as a shock absorber for the body believe it or not and is NOT the same as being 225 fat. baron was always ripped.

http://www.coreconcepts.com.sg/mcr/muscles-your-shock-absorbers/

"When we think shock absorbers, we usually imagine things that cushion or push back. But muscles don’t cushion or push back, they contract. So how do they absorb shock? Muscles absorb shock because they usually work in pairs to move our joints. By contracting, they can slow down a joint moving in the opposite direction."


somebody needs to follow that link and read up on their physics

[mavs>spurs]

but i'm sure you'll spin it back to your original argument like you always try to do and keep thinking it was baron's fault he was genetically prone to back issues. But as a fan of basketball, fuck you for that. Baron Davis's career is a trajedy to real basketball fans, dude had top 5 all time pg potential and I don't find what you said very appropriate at all.

[JamStone]

LOL why do you keep bringing up 2010 baron? his career was fucking over by then. that was over a decade after the injuries began.


It gives insight as to Baron's inability to control his weight. 31 years old, still in the prime of most players' career, and still under contract for a lot of money. And he balloons up to 260. Shows the lack of discipline to control his weight that he had suffered for much of his career.

Let's go back to 2008 after Baron played all 82 games in 2007-08 and put up 20/8 for the Golden State Warriors. Doing all those things you say a fat player can't do. Then why did Baron Davis choose to go on a Jenny Craig weight loss program?

http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20228478,00.html

A quote in the above article exemplifies Baron's inability to stay healthy and in good shape in the off season.


During the NBA off-season, Davis let his fitness slide. "In the off-season, it's kind of hard to maintain day-to-day," he says. "I don't want to get up and cook. And when I pig out, I'm the type of person where there's no limit to what I can do."

Baron Davis himself can admit he's a pig with no self control. Why are you taking up for him?

[JamStone]

do you not see the difference between 2001 and 2010?

Yes, but you didn't answer my question.

[mavs>spurs]

Baron Davis himself can admit he's a pig with no self control. Why are you taking up for him?

Because when Baron first started having injury problems he played at 215, not 260. You need to come to grips with understanding that.

[JamStone]

Back to 2003.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=stein_marc&id=1673111

Baron Davis 24 years old, still with the Hornets.


Baron Davis, New Orleans.
Approximate weight loss: 10 to 15 pounds.
What he's doing with his newfound thinness: Reports started circulating in the summer, around the time of Magic Johnson's annual charity game, that Davis was looking better than ever. "Cut up" is how one witness described it. The first month of the season has only confirmed those reports, with Davis quickly vaulting into the league's top five in scoring (25.0), assists (8.1), steals (2.9) and minutes (40.4). The Hornets, as a result, are off to an 11-5 start despite the injury absence of Jamal Mashburn, with Baron transforming the team from a slow-down, post-up operation to a team that scores in transition and bombs away from outside. To wit: Baron has hit 61 triples already ... nearly double the total of the league's No. 2 triples hitter (Miami's Eddie Jones, with 32). Yet, sadly, there's no magic pill that gets results like Davis got over the summer. He worked out for several hours a day, five or six times a week, with a personal trainer. Davis also hired a chef to prepare healthier meals because he realized it was no fun playing overweight, which meant playing with a bad back and sore knees.

Why would he need to lose 10-15 pounds to get healthier and in better shape when he was only 24 years old? Take note of the last sentence in the quote. Baron Davis in 2003 at 24 years old already knew and admitted he was playing overweight and it affect his back and knees.

Why can Baron Davis acknowledge and admit it, and you're still here trying to refute it?

[JamStone]

Because when Baron first started having injury problems he played at 215, not 260. You need to come to grips with understanding that.

Still missing my point that because already having injuries issues with his knees, to help prevent further injuries, he could have helped himself stay healthier had he consistently watched his weight.

He admitted it as early as 2003 as I just posted. Specifically stated it affected his back and knees. Weight kept fluctuating. Had to go on a Jenny Craig diet later. Ballooned up to 260 at one point. Admitted he pigged out in the off season. Yet you're still here arguing weight wasn't the issue for Baron.

For fuck's sake, Baron Davis disagrees with you.

[JayTheClown]

Still missing my point that because already having injuries issues with his knees, to help prevent further injuries, he could have helped himself stay healthier had he consistently watched his weight.

He admitted it as early as 2003 as I just posted. Specifically stated it affected his back and knees. Weight kept fluctuating. Had to go on a Jenny Craig diet later. Ballooned up to 260 at one point. Admitted he pigged out in the off season. Yet you're still here arguing weight wasn't the issue for Baron.

For fuck's sake, Baron Davis disagrees with you.

Yep, Have to agree
If baron conditioned himself better he would have had a longer prime.

[mavs>spurs]

You saying 10 pounds made all the difference in the world when his injury problems started in college at a mere 190lbs makes you a chickenshit and an asshole. Baron was injury prone from the beginning and it's really a trajedy for real basketball fans, you're entitled to your opinion but that doesn't make you any less of an asshole.

[Killakobe81]

I think, not that I am taking his side, because Jam is capable of fight his own battles ...that those 10-15 lbs. would HELP. Tmac is not fat he is skinny and had health issues. Mark Jackson was a bulky PG (Andre Miller too) but was remarkably healthy. But He never had major knee issues and that is why many think Baron would of been wise to stay dedicated to maintaining his playing weight as much as possible, even in the off-season.

[JayTheClown]

You saying 10 pounds made all the difference in the world when his injury problems started in college at a mere 190lbs makes you a chickenshit and an asshole. Baron was injury prone from the beginning and it's really a trajedy for real basketball fans, you're entitled to your opinion but that doesn't make you any less of an asshole.

So are stating that Baron had brittle bones? Is that what you believe? What do you believe made Baron "injure prone".

[mavs>spurs]

Whenever a guy who was a unique talent and potential to be a top talent of all time at his position has his career derailed by injury, you just don't come in and start shit talking the guy tbh. Dude sustained his first injury as a skinny college kid and wasn't always prone to weight issues. His extreme athleticism and style of play had at LEAST as much to do with it.

What you did is akin to me coming in and saying "imagine what len bias could have done if he just put down the cocaine." It was unfortunate and only an asshole would make either comment. The thread is about players who had the talent but for whatever reason didn't make it work, not "weren't able to put their talent to its best use because disaster struck."

[mavs>spurs]

So are stating that Baron had brittle bones? Is that what you believe? What do you believe made Baron "injure prone".

his style of play and the extreme stress that his kind of athleticism puts on the body. for example, i'm a high jumper, throwing down all kinds of sick dunks back in the day even when i was only like a 5'9 freshman and believe me, being super athletic has a downside. now i'm 23 and my knees always ache. i firmly believe that if i wasn't jumping so high for all those years my knees wouldn't have aged so quickly.

[JamStone]

You saying 10 pounds made all the difference in the world when his injury problems started in college at a mere 190lbs makes you a chickenshit and an asshole. Baron was injury prone from the beginning and it's really a trajedy for real basketball fans, you're entitled to your opinion but that doesn't make you any less of an asshole.

Sure 10 pounds can make a difference. But that's also being generous with how much he weight at different points in his career. The only report I saw of 260 was that 2010 link. But Baron playing at 225-230 earlier in his career is no guarantee either. What if you found out that in his later Hornets days, he was up to 250+? What about with the Warriors, would it surprise you if he had gotten up to 250 too? I was being generous by saying only 225.

I already provided a source that Baron acknowledge his weight problems as early as 2003 at 24 years of age. Later after his last season with the Warriors, he went on a Jenny Craig diet. This isn't something that only became an issue in 2010. He admitted playing overweight affected his back and knees. He admitted he pigged out in the off season.

It's obvious you refuse to acknowledge these things, so I guess there's no backing down for you. But as I said a few times already, Baron Davis himself has admitted that weight has been an issue in his career. And if he can admit it, I don't see the need for you to refute it.


But if you ignore all those things, it still comes down to the best case scenario in using preventative measures for future injuries. If Baron Davis was a perfect work horse in the gym and stayed in great condition throughout his entire career, he still could get injured. Sure. But once you have some history of injury, you need to work even harder to give yourself the best chance to stay healthy and injury free. His weight fluctuation his entire career didn't give him the best chance to do that. Could he still have gotten injured regardless? Yup. There is no absolute here. But his weight absolutely didn't help his chances to do so. And there's a very good possibility that it hurt those chances.

[mavs>spurs]

Please. Baron Davis NEVER played at 250. I watched the games, I saw him. never more than 225 at TOPS.

[Latarian Milton]

fattier players are less likely to get injured in collisions though, fat ain't no bad thing in sports games tbh

[JamStone]

Please. Baron Davis NEVER played at 250. I watched the games, I saw him. never more than 225 at TOPS.

I disagree. And unless you had a scale weighing him every year, you can't prove it. During his seasons with the Golden State Warriors especially, I definitely think he played well over 225.

[JayTheClown]

his style of play and the extreme stress that his kind of athleticism puts on the body. for example, i'm a high jumper, throwing down all kinds of sick dunks back in the day even when i was only like a 5'9 freshman and believe me, being super athletic has a downside. now i'm 23 and my knees always ache. i firmly believe that if i wasn't jumping so high for all those years my knees wouldn't have aged so quickly.

Ok, I can concur with this argument. You just explained the demis of Shawn Kemp's career and eventually Blake Griffins. That being said, Baron could have altered his game a bit, could he? Maybe develop a consistent jump shop etc.., he was already a pretty good passer.

And also do you believe it was a coincident Barons career began to tank in LA?

[mavs>spurs]

Golden state was well after his career was already derailed due to injury, so even if he weighed 300 in your fairytale mind it wouldn't really help your case. Dude's career got derailed with the Hornets and he never really returned to form except for glimpses here and there, like the 2007 playoffs unfortunately for me.

[mavs>spurs]

Ok, I can concur with this argument. You just explained the demis of Shawn Kemp's career and eventually Blake Griffins. That being said, Baron could have altered his game a bit, could he? Maybe develop a consistent jump shop etc.., he was already a pretty good passer.

And also do you believe it was a coincident Barons career began to tank in LA?

Yeah I always thought it was pretty evident that Baron never wanted to play with the Clippers. Dude looked unmotivated as I've ever seen him, just flat out bored out there.

[JamStone]

You ignore the 2003 24 year old Baron Davis with the Hornets who decided to lose 10-15 pounds because he realized that playing overweight affected his back and knees. Weight was an issue before 2010, before the Golden State Warriors. Baron Davis himself admitted it. I already posted it. You ignore it.



Back to 2003.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=stein_marc&id=1673111

Baron Davis 24 years old, still with the Hornets.


Baron Davis, New Orleans.
Approximate weight loss: 10 to 15 pounds.
What he's doing with his newfound thinness: Reports started circulating in the summer, around the time of Magic Johnson's annual charity game, that Davis was looking better than ever. "Cut up" is how one witness described it. The first month of the season has only confirmed those reports, with Davis quickly vaulting into the league's top five in scoring (25.0), assists (8.1), steals (2.9) and minutes (40.4). The Hornets, as a result, are off to an 11-5 start despite the injury absence of Jamal Mashburn, with Baron transforming the team from a slow-down, post-up operation to a team that scores in transition and bombs away from outside. To wit: Baron has hit 61 triples already ... nearly double the total of the league's No. 2 triples hitter (Miami's Eddie Jones, with 32). Yet, sadly, there's no magic pill that gets results like Davis got over the summer. He worked out for several hours a day, five or six times a week, with a personal trainer. Davis also hired a chef to prepare healthier meals because he realized it was no fun playing overweight, which meant playing with a bad back and sore knees.

Why would he need to lose 10-15 pounds to get healthier and in better shape when he was only 24 years old? Take note of the last sentence in the quote. Baron Davis in 2003 at 24 years old already knew and admitted he was playing overweight and it affect his back and knees.

Why can Baron Davis acknowledge and admit it, and you're still here trying to refute it?

[mavs>spurs]

Well just have to agree to disagree then Jamstone because I believe that his unique athleticism and style of play had AT LEAST if not more to do with his injuries than weight. Tbh dude could have been one of the best ever at his position and I view his career as a real tragedy. He was an elite defender when motivated, quicker and stronger than other pg's, great passer, ball handler, and all around playmaker. One of those guys who was so hard to guard because he was unpredictable, you never knew what baron was gonna do with the ball.

[JamStone]

When a 24 year old Baron Davis himself admits he had been playing overweight and that it affected his back and knees and you still want to argue it wasn't an issue, I guess there's just no convincing you.

[mavs>spurs]

i think it could have been an issue but it definitely wasn't THE issue. and i wouldnt be a faggot and come in here and make that comment. it's a tragedy for real basketball fans, not something to scoff about. i don't believe it was all or even mostly his fault.

[Latarian Milton]

players pick injuries which're part of the game, it ain't the fault of being too skinny or too fatty imho. obesity & skinniness both come with risks, mean if you're too skinny you're easier to get broke in collisions and if you're too fat your knees & other joints wear out sooner.

[mavs>spurs]

too little fat in the joints is also bad for them too, increases your risk for arthritis and other joint problems.

[JamStone]

i think it could have been an issue but it definitely wasn't THE issue. and i wouldnt be a faggot and come in here and make that comment. it's a tragedy for real basketball fans, not something to scoff about. i don't believe it was all or even mostly his fault.

lolwut?

What I initially said about Baron Davis was that he was a beast when he was healthy and that I felt that he could have helped avoid some of his injuries if he kept his weight down. Not only was I not scoffing at Baron Davis, I brought him up because I thought he was so exceptionally talented. Smh. You took the things I said about Baron as scoffing and insulting. That wasn't where I was going with it at all. I do believe he could have helped himself more by staying in better shape. But I fail to see how what I've said would make you so upset. Shrugs.

[Koolaid_Man]

Not due to injury though...so no Brandon Roy, Grant Hill, Oden, etc.


Derrick Coleman immediately comes to mind for me.

Hey Deads I'm at your mercy..I've learned my lesson and I'm miserable without Spurstalk full privledges who do I need to talk to in order to submit my Manning Report for reinstatement?

[mavs>spurs]

yup you were so bored that you even signed on to aim once last week..don't lie kool, i know you're calioz08 :lol

[Koolaid_Man]

yup you were so bored that you even signed on to aim once last week..don't lie kool, i know you're calioz08 :lol

no sir it's Kool or nothing...can you lobby for me to get my privledges back...I will do what it takes

[mavs>spurs]

Submit your manning report in a thread in the EC forum and I guess we will forward it to Kori.

[Bruce Wayne]

no sir it's Kool or nothing...can you lobby for me to get my privledges back...I will do what it takes
Do you have the $500 dollars that was required along with the Manning report? In cased you missed it, it was in fine print.

[Koolaid_Man]

Do you have the $500 dollars that was required along with the Manning report? In cased you missed it, it was in fine print.

I missed that part..

[DeadlyDynasty]

Hey Deads I'm at your mercy..I've learned my lesson and I'm miserable without Spurstalk full privledges who do I need to talk to in order to submit my Manning Report for reinstatement?

sup brotha?

PM me the finished product, along with the youtube citation for which video you did the report on. I will post a thread with what you send me in the EC Forum--and if it's a well-written, concise effort on your part then the committee will make a decision.

I'm only one vote, so even though you've been a bastard just know that I'm not a vengeful person.:lol Show me the effort and you will have my blessing

[Koolaid_Man]

sup brotha?

PM me the finished product, along with the youtube citation for which video you did the report on. I will post a thread with what you send me in the EC Forum--and if it's a well-written, concise effort on your part then the committee will make a decision.

I'm only one vote, so even though you've been a bastard just know that I'm not a vengeful person.:lol Show me the effort and you will have my blessing

Problem is I cannot PM while pinked...that's what's a killer...if it all possible perhaps you can start a thread for me entitled Kool's Manning Report to the committee and I will post it there...

[DeadlyDynasty]

Problem is I cannot PM while pinked...that's what's a killer...if it all possible perhaps you can start a thread for me entitled Kool's Manning Report to the committee and I will post it there...

At halftime of the Laker game, aight?

[Koolaid_Man]

At halftime of the Laker game, aight?

thanks my Laker brother :toast

[Giuseppe]

At halftime of the Laker game, aight?

Just post the fucking thing. The fuck is wrong with you?

[DeadlyDynasty]

Just post the fucking thing. The fuck is wrong with you?

I'm doing him a favor, asshole. At halftime his thread will get much more attention.

[LnGrrrR]

How the f does this thread have nearly 10 pages already? :lol

[DeadlyDynasty]

How the f does this thread have nearly 10 pages already? :lol

Baron Davis

[Giuseppe]

I'm doing him a favor, asshole. At halftime his thread will get much more attention.

Please.

[DeadlyDynasty]

Please.

Apologize for being a presumptious ass.

[Giuseppe]

Apologize for being a presumptious ass.

Shut the fuck up with me and post it.

[DeadlyDynasty]

Shut the fuck up with me and post it.

You're getting on my nerves already. Stop acting like a petulant child. I said halftime, he was cool with it, stop making an issue out of nothing.

It's childish and petty.

[Obstructed_View]

And JR Smith always seems to pop up on these lists and i disagree.

He's athletic as fuck and has a nice shot but that's about it. People say he's as talented as Kobe and that's ridiculous. The guy really has no go to move of any sort just the same predictable step back jumper.

Go to moves have nothing to do with talent. Say what you want about Kobe, but he works his ass off for hours and hours to learn those moves. They look like they come naturally because he's done them a hundred thousand times.

Derrick Coleman has to be far and away the biggest waste of talent I ever saw. Think of Karl Malone with a three point shot. I never saw him care, never saw him in shape, and he averaged 20 and 10 without thinking about it a lot of years, and did it with a fuckoff attitude. If he gave a shit, we'd be talking about what Tim Duncan has to do to catch Coleman for best four of all time.

[Otaku]

Iverson.

[HarlemHeat37]

I agree with Bump about JR Smith..he only has one talent, anyways..most of the others on these lists possess multi-faceted talents, which is a major criteria IMO..

Rasheed and Lamar Odom are two other players that could have been better, but their "potential" was/is overrated IMO..