Tony Parker's 4th All-Star Selection

[FromWayDowntown]

By being named a reserve last night, Tony Parker has made his 4th All-Star team. I realize this is not news and other threads discuss that; I add this thread to note the historical significance of that accomplishment.

By making the West All-Star team in 2012, Parker becomes one of only 25 players in the history of basketball to have won 3 NBA titles and to have made 4 All-Star teams.

Interestingly enough, 20 of the other 24 players on that list are in the Hall of Fame:

Abdul-Jabbar, Kareem
Jordan, Michael
Havlicek, John
Cousy, Bob
Russell, Bill
Johnson, Earvin
Bird, Larry
Parish, Robert
Sharman, Bill
Pippen, Scottie
Martin, Slater
McHale, Kevin
Worthy, James
Heinsohn, Tom
Mikkelsen, Vern
Jones, Sam
Johnson, Dennis
Mikan, George
Pollard, Jim
Lovellette, Clyde

3 others are mortal locks for Springfield:

O'Neal, Shaquille
Bryant, Kobe
Duncan, Tim

Only Willie Naulls, who was an all-star for the Knicks in the late 50's and then a bit player on 3 Celtics' title teams in the mid-60's, has managed to win 3 titles and make 4 all-star teams without finding his way to the Hall of Fame.

[timvp]

Yeah, Parker's Hall of Fame case is getting pretty good. He's not quite there yet but he's closing in. Another championship would seal the deal. If he can win a medal with France at the Olympics, that would probably be enough. Otherwise he might need a couple other All-Star nods to be a slam dunk.

[Muser]

I think Parker will get into the HoF regardless of any future accolades. He's a 3 time NBA champion, Finals MVP, Rookie first team, NBA third team, 4 time All Star.

Not to mention he's a 6 ft 2 guard who's shooting nearly .500 on 17 ppg for his career. A lot of people have got in on less than him.

[will_spurs]

Actually I was looking at this recently and all the eligible Finals MVPs are in the HoF except two: Cedric Maxwell and Jo Jo White.

Cedric Maxwell's resume is only composed of his Finals MVP award and 2 rings with Boston. That's obviously not enough to get into the HoF (based on NBA career at least).

Jo Jo White is a more interesting case, and his profile is very comparable to Parker: he is a 7-time All-Star, has 2 rings with Boston, a Finals MVP award, All-Rookie 1st and 2x All-NBA 2nd.

That's pretty much what Parker's NBA resume will look like in the end, with at least one more ring but (probably) fewer All-Star selections. This being said, all the HoF predictors point to the fact that Jo Jo White should be in the HoF, and looking at his stats and resume, it's quite hard to understand why he isn't.

I'm pretty sure Parker won't end up being snubbed like that, though, because he is the first French player to shine at this level, has at least a bit of success on the international stage (3rd then 2nd in Euro championship and best scorer) and is actually the first European player to get a Finals MVP (eat that, Dirk).

For the record all the ineligible former Finals MVPs are a lock to the HoF (Duncan, Shaq, Kobe, Dirk, Wade, Pierce). Only Parker and Billups (5x All-Star, 2x All-NBA, 1 ring) are still on the bubble.

[cantthinkofanything]

I think Parker's close also. One comparable that sticks out to me is Dennis Johnson. Pretty close statistically. DJ ws a much better defender. But if DJ is in, I think Parker has a good chance even with just playing good ball the next couple of years. Another championship or possibly an All-Star nod clinches it.

[timvp]

Speaking of point guards in the Hall of Fame, I've never figured out how Calvin Murphy made it. An All-Star only once. No championships, hell he only made it to the playoffs six times in his 13 seasons. No All-NBA teams. He was a three-time All-American in college but he was basically a low percentage chucker who led his team to a total of one tournament victory.

There's no way he should be a Hall of Famer. Someone like Sean Elliott, who rightfully has never been mentioned as a possible Hall of Famer, has a much better case:

NBA championship
Two-time NBA All-Star
Two-time All-American in college
Wooden Award winner in college
Led Arizona, a school that had never done anything, to a Final Four and a Sweet 16


Elliott >>>> Murphy

[cantthinkofanything]

Speaking of point guards in the Hall of Fame, I've never figured out how Calvin Murphy made it. An All-Star only once. No championships, hell he only made it to the playoffs six times in his 13 seasons. No All-NBA teams. He was a three-time All-American in college but he was basically a low percentage chucker who led his team to a total of one tournament victory.

There's no way he should be a Hall of Famer. Someone like Sean Elliott, who rightfully has never been mentioned as a possible Hall of Famer, has a much better case:

NBA championship
Two-time NBA All-Star
Two-time All-American in college
Wooden Award winner in college
Led Arizona, a school that had never done anything, to a Final Four and a Sweet 16


Elliott >>>> Murphy

Good call. I was looking through his stats to see if there was something maybe hidden in there but can't figure it out. Do players ever get inducted if there is a lack of good choices for any particular year?

[FromWayDowntown]

Good call. I was looking through his stats to see if there was something maybe hidden in there but can't figure it out. Do players ever get inducted if there is a lack of good choices for any particular year?

I don't think that happens and it certainly didn't happen in Murphy's year -- a class that included Julius Erving, Bill Walton (undeniably one of the handful of greatest college players ever; a relevant question at the Basketball HOF), Dan Issel, and Walt Bellamy among NBA inductees.

I think Murphy's induction lies almost entirely in 3 numbers: 38.2, 32.4, and 29.4 -- his annual scoring averages in college, which were much more impressive of a guy who wasn't even 6 feet tall back when nobody cared much about efficiency.

If it's not that, I suppose it can be rationalized by noting that with the development of more advanced metrics, the two players who are most similar to him historically are Bob Cousy and Earl Monroe and that he's relatively similar to Joe Dumars, Isiah Thomas, and Lenny Wilkens. Then again, Jason Terry and Andre Miller are also similar players historically and neither of those guys is going to Springfield.

[cheguevara]

Props to Parker but if he lays another egg in the playoffs all this is moot.

[Dr Cox]

He should make the Hall, a few more playoff runs after duncan and manu retire (if possible) and a medal in the Olympics would solitify it IMO.

[mercos]

Just by looking at the success Parker has already achieved he will probably make the Hall of Fame. Three titles and a finals MVP make opposition difficult. When you look beyond the numbers the case becomes even more compelling. I have watched Parker play just about his entire career, and I can say with confidence that I believe if he had played on a team without a sure fire Hall of Famer (Duncan) and another probable Hall of Famer (Manu) his individual numbers would be much higher. The same could be said for the other two members of the big 3. They shared the ball perfectly and as a result achieved amazing team success.

Parker has never been on a team that won less than 50 games in a season. He has never missed the playoffs. He was a main cog in achieving those feats. Given what this franchise has accomplished over the last decade and a half I think the entire big 3 should enter the Hall.

[Dr Cox]

great stuff mercos... i agree that when it is all said in done that all three will be in the hall. Manu's international play is just too much for him not to get in.

[romain.star]

Just by looking at the success Parker has already achieved he will probably make the Hall of Fame. Three titles and a finals MVP make opposition difficult. When you look beyond the numbers the case becomes even more compelling. I have watched Parker play just about his entire career, and I can say with confidence that I believe if he had played on a team without a sure fire Hall of Famer (Duncan) and another probable Hall of Famer (Manu) his individual numbers would be much higher. The same could be said for the other two members of the big 3. They shared the ball perfectly and as a result achieved amazing team success.

Parker has never been on a team that won less than 50 games in a season. He has never missed the playoffs. He was a main cog in achieving those feats. Given what this franchise has accomplished over the last decade and a half I think the entire big 3 should enter the Hall.


Let me also add that if it wasn't for those two horribly bad games against Memphis, Parker has always been able to take up the challenge comes PO time.

However, IMO, Parker is not a lock yet. He needs to prove that he can keep on contributing in his 30s when his speed decreases (just like Manu and Duncan)

[ChumpDumper]

Parker's already a lock to be in the hall IMO. First Euro to win a finals MVP sealed it.

[therealtruth]

I think Parker's close also. One comparable that sticks out to me is Dennis Johnson. Pretty close statistically. DJ ws a much better defender. But if DJ is in, I think Parker has a good chance even with just playing good ball the next couple of years. Another championship or possibly an All-Star nod clinches it.

DJ didn't get in for the longest time so might be the same for Parker.

[TMTTRIO]

great stuff mercos... i agree that when it is all said in done that all three will be in the hall. Manu's international play is just too much for him not to get in.
The only reason Manu makes it (if he does) is based on his overall international career overseas. Overall he doesn't have a very impressive NBA resume (other than 3 NBA championships he won just because he was on this team). As for Tony, I can see Tony making it. He's been racking up the NBA achievements and if he can accomplish a medal overseas I can see that sealing it for him.

[The ADMIRAL 50]

Parker is a surefire HOFer, even if he did nothing else the rest of his career. Being a top 3 piece of a 3x NBA Champion core seals it, the 4 All Star nods only help make it a no doubter. Hopefully he can add more as TD and Manu age or retire.

[jestersmash]

ESPN had a "roundtable" try to assess whether certain international players were HOF-worthy (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=5-on-5-110712).

The link speaks for itself, but as of July 2011, the results were as follows -

Is Manu Ginobili a hall of famer?

David Thorpe: He is, indeed.

Jay Alch: Absolutely

Rob Mahoney: Absolutely

Jonathan Santiago: (Yes)

Jared Wade: Yes.


Is Tony Parker a hall of famer?

David Thorpe: Yes.

Jay Alch: Yes.

Rob Mahoney: Maybe.

Jonathan Santiago: Iffy

Jared Wade: Nope.

[cantthinkofanything]

Just by looking at the success Parker has already achieved he will probably make the Hall of Fame. Three titles and a finals MVP make opposition difficult. When you look beyond the numbers the case becomes even more compelling. I have watched Parker play just about his entire career, and I can say with confidence that I believe if he had played on a team without a sure fire Hall of Famer (Duncan) and another probable Hall of Famer (Manu) his individual numbers would be much higher. The same could be said for the other two members of the big 3. They shared the ball perfectly and as a result achieved amazing team success.

Parker has never been on a team that won less than 50 games in a season. He has never missed the playoffs. He was a main cog in achieving those feats. Given what this franchise has accomplished over the last decade and a half I think the entire big 3 should enter the Hall.

If he didn't play on a team with other HOF's, he'd be Iverson wouldn't he? Great scoreer, but probably not able to lead his team to a championship.

[mercos]

If he didn't play on a team with other HOF's, he'd be Iverson wouldn't he? Great scoreer, but probably not able to lead his team to a championship.


No, I don't think he would be Iverson. Much better play maker and shoots a higher percentage than Iverson did. Parker scores a ton of easy baskets and shoots a very high percentage around the rim. As I have heard even our opponent's broadcasters admit, he is one of the best finishers of all time, especially in traffic.

Now, could he lead a team like the 2007 Cavaliers to a championship? No, but neither could Lebron James, and he has the potential to go down as the greatest player of all time if he continues to improve. Parker's scoring numbers would go up if he didn't play with two HoFers like Duncan and Ginobili who had the ball in their hands a lot. His assist numbers would go up from not sharing play maker duties with Ginobili. We are seeing that happen now.

[Spurminator]

Well, Iverson is a Hall of Famer too.

[Spurminator]

I think Parker, up to now, would probably make the Hall but have to wait a while to be selected. The rest of his career will basically dictate how many years he has to wait to be inducted.

[cantthinkofanything]

No, I don't think he would be Iverson. Much better play maker and shoots a higher percentage than Iverson did. Parker scores a ton of easy baskets and shoots a very high percentage around the rim. As I have heard even our opponent's broadcasters admit, he is one of the best finishers of all time, especially in traffic.

Now, could he lead a team like the 2007 Cavaliers to a championship? No, but neither could Lebron James, and he has the potential to go down as the greatest player of all time if he continues to improve. Parker's scoring numbers would go up if he didn't play with two HoFers like Duncan and Ginobili who had the ball in their hands a lot. His assist numbers would go up from not sharing play maker duties with Ginobili. We are seeing that happen now.

I wasn't diminishing Iverson or trying to exactly equate their games. Just the point about prolific scoring and not winning a ring. And no doubt Parker's scoring would increase. Not sure about the assists going up. Not having Duncan might offset that.

Also, it's much more farfetched that a amall point guard can lead a team to win a championship than a great SG or SF. Unless you're talking about someone like Magic. Although, we'll never really know what he could have done with mediocre role players.

[FromWayDowntown]

Since I'm in a nostalgic mood this morning:

"Chris Whitney > Tony Parker"

Good times.

[will_spurs]

ESPN had a "roundtable" try to assess whether certain international players were HOF-worthy (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=5-on-5-110712).

The link speaks for itself, but as of July 2011, the results were as follows -

Is Tony Parker a hall of famer?

David Thorpe: Yes.

Jay Alch: Yes.

Rob Mahoney: Maybe.

Jonathan Santiago: Iffy

Jared Wade: Nope.

It's actually worth noting that most of these guys mentioned Parker's lack of success on the international stage (contrary to Manu, Pau or Dirk), but since then he lead France to a silver medal in the Euro while being the best scorer of the tournament. There was just nothing France could do against Spain in the final game... but that's one more line to Parker's already impressive list of accomplishments.

[will_spurs]

A couple of funny stats for Parker:

Most playoff games all-time, age 26 or younger:
Tony Parker = 122
Kobe Bryant = 119
Lebron James = 92

Kobe leads the list for most playoff games of all time at any age between 18 and 25 (Parker is 2nd), Tony leads the 26-28 bracket.

Parker's career highs in points are 55 (reg season) and 43 (playoffs). Duncan has 53 and 41, Manu has 48 and 39.

[timvp]

Since I'm in a nostalgic mood this morning:

"Chris Whitney > Tony Parker"

Good times.

:lol

Or:

Jamaal Tinsley > Tony Parker

[Leetonidas]

Udrih > Parker

[DPG21920]

I agree with Chump though, while it may be close I believe TP already sealed his place in the HOF. Both he and Manu are in at this point.

[cantthinkofanything]

I agree with Chump though, while it may be close I believe TP already sealed his place in the HOF. Both he and Manu are in at this point.

Unless Parker sleeps with Red Aurbach's wife.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Great thread, thanks all. :tu

And props to TP, he deserves every bit of what he's accomplished, and more. He's a warrior who has continually improved his game and plays big in the 4th Q. He's also always thrived against other top PGs. TPs a stone cold winner. :toast

[MI21]

Since I'm in a nostalgic mood this morning:

"Chris Whitney > Tony Parker"

Good times.

Far out, that's right. Where is Ghost?

"Matt Harpring > Bruce Bowen" while we're at it.

I also remember quite a large SpursReport movement for "Trade Parker for B. Haywood."

[elbamba]

I think Parker will get into the HoF regardless of any future accolades. He's a 3 time NBA champion, Finals MVP, Rookie first team, NBA third team, 4 time All Star.

Not to mention he's a 6 ft 2 guard who's shooting nearly .500 on 17 ppg for his career. A lot of people have got in on less than him.

Add to this that he is a French PG. I have no facts to back this up but I am going to guess that there are not many French players or PGs in the HOF.

[Agloco]

The only reason Manu makes it (if he does) is based on his overall international career overseas. Overall he doesn't have a very impressive NBA resume (other than 3 NBA championships he won just because he was on this team). As for Tony, I can see Tony making it. He's been racking up the NBA achievements and if he can accomplish a medal overseas I can see that sealing it for him.

:lol

lol marginalizing Manus achievements.

[will_spurs]

Add to this that he is a French PG. I have no facts to back this up but I am going to guess that there are not many French players or PGs in the HOF.

There's no French inductee in the HOF.

Although people like to rant about international scrubs getting in the HoF while "great" US/NB players don't get in, this view is not supported by facts.

Of 86 coaches, 8 were born outside the US.
Of 58 contributors, 10 were born outside the US.
Of 151 players, 11 were born outside the US.
Of 13 referees, 1 only was born outside the US.

Furthermore most of the international inductees are from Canada (e.g. Naismith as a contributor, or the only foreign-born ref), and as usual place of birth takes precedence over nationality for whatever reason, meaning that e.g. Dominique Wilkins counts as one of the 11 foreign-born player inductees because he was born in France. Duncan will similarly be listed as foreign-born (whereas Noah wouldn't, if he ever were to make the HOF).

For the record among the 11 players: 3 from former Soviet Union; 3 from former Yugoslavia; 1 from Italy; 2 from Brazil; 1 from Canada; and Dominique Wilkins.

So Manu would be first Argentine to make it, too; Dirk the first German, etc.

It's pretty clear that the list of international inductees is going to explode 10 years or so from now (Nash, Duncan, Dirk, Manu, Tony).

I think it's also clear that it's less and less likely that players will get in based on a strong college "career" if they don't manage to be dominant in the NBA as well.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_members_of_the_Naismith_Memorial_Basketbal l_Hall_of_Fame

[FromWayDowntown]

I think it's also clear that it's less and less likely that players will get in based on a strong college "career" if they don't manage to be dominant in the NBA as well.

I think this is clearly true. Not too many years ago, both Ralph Sampson and Christian Laettner would have been no-brainers for enshrinement. Each was a transcendent collegiate player and an NBA All-Star at least once (Sampson was an All-Star 5 times; Laettner made one all-star team, in 1997). If Bill Bradley is in, each of those guys probably should be in as well, but I don't think Laettner has any chance and Sampson's chances seem only slightly better (though he was at least a finalist in 2011).


So Manu would be first Argentine to make it, too; Dirk the first German, etc.

It's pretty clear that the list of international inductees is going to explode 10 years or so from now (Nash, Duncan, Dirk, Manu, Tony).

I agree that there will be more and more players from nations other than the United States who earn enshrinement, but I think there's a question about how they become finalists that will bear on just how many players from Europe, Africa, South America, and Asia get in and at what rate.

The basketball Hall of Fame's process is very different than the processes in other sports. At the basketball hall, there are 4 "screening committees" that make recommendations for enshrinement to a second committee that ultimately decides who gets in. There's a "North American" committee, a Women's committee, a Veteran's committee, and an international committee. Each of those committees has a specific number of candidates it can put forward each year. The North American committee can offer as many as 10 finalists each year; the international committee can only offer 2 each year. The finalists from each of the 4 committees are forwarded to the honors committee, which then votes; even at this final level, the international finalists and the North American finalists are considered differently.

Timmy and Nash will both have to go through the North American committee on the road to becoming finalists. I'll be curious to see how things go, territorially, between the international committee and the North American committee with players who are from other parts of the world, but whose basketball achievements have occurred mostly in North America. Does Dirk go in as a finalist from the North American committee? I would think there's a strong argument for that. There isn't really a wholly apt analogy in the Hall yet, but Hakeem Olajuwon might be close; he was made a finalist by the North American committee in 2008, which allowed the International committee to put up 2 Brazilians. Of course, by that point, Hakeem had gained United States citizenship and that might have been sufficient to reroute him. Still, I tend to think that because Hakeem was going in based almost entirely upon his NBA and collegiate achievements, he was truly a North American candidate. If guys like Dirk or Dikembe Mutombo go through the North American committee when their turns come, there is more room for the international committee to nominate players with more modest NBA accomplishments.

[TJastal]

Far out, that's right. Where is Ghost?

"Matt Harpring > Bruce Bowen" while we're at it.

I also remember quite a large SpursReport movement for "Trade Parker for B. Haywood."

There's been alot of Parker trade rumors throughout the years. I should know, I started one or two myself.

But only Haywood? I would have at least gotten JJ Barea along with him. :toast

[FromWayDowntown]

duncan will be listed as a foreign born player? oh shit when did we lose the US Virgin Islands???????

I've never understood it, either, but USVI does have it's own teams in international competitions.

Tim Duncan, who is ineligible to play for USVI, chose not to play against them in the 2003 Tournament of the Americas and caught a lot of hell for that decision.

[Brazil]

There's no French inductee in the HOF.

Although people like to rant about international scrubs getting in the HoF while "great" US/NB players don't get in, this view is not supported by facts.

Of 86 coaches, 8 were born outside the US.
Of 58 contributors, 10 were born outside the US.
Of 151 players, 11 were born outside the US.
Of 13 referees, 1 only was born outside the US.

Furthermore most of the international inductees are from Canada (e.g. Naismith as a contributor, or the only foreign-born ref), and as usual place of birth takes precedence over nationality for whatever reason, meaning that e.g. Dominique Wilkins counts as one of the 11 foreign-born player inductees because he was born in France. Duncan will similarly be listed as foreign-born (whereas Noah wouldn't, if he ever were to make the HOF).

For the record among the 11 players: 3 from former Soviet Union; 3 from former Yugoslavia; 1 from Italy; 2 from Brazil; 1 from Canada; and Dominique Wilkins.

So Manu would be first Argentine to make it, too; Dirk the first German, etc.

It's pretty clear that the list of international inductees is going to explode 10 years or so from now (Nash, Duncan, Dirk, Manu, Tony).

I think it's also clear that it's less and less likely that players will get in based on a strong college "career" if they don't manage to be dominant in the NBA as well.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_members_of_the_Naismith_Memorial_Basketbal l_Hall_of_Fame

Wilkins is French !!!

:huddle:

[MI21]

There's been alot of Parker trade rumors throughout the years. I should know, I started one or two myself.

But only Haywood? I would have at least gotten JJ Barea along with him. :toast

This was Parker for Haywood in 02/03. Ridiculous stuff.