Rank the following players..

[HarlemHeat37]

Rank them twice, one list based on their spots on the all-time list, and the other list based on their peak performances..

David Robinson
Kevin Garnett
Dirk Nowitzki
Karl Malone
Charles Barkley
Moses Malone
Patrick Ewing

[DPG21920]

Robinson
Dirk


Not sure about the rest.

[DPG21920]

Dp

[mavs>spurs]

Only pussies and assholes rank robinson ahead of dirk

[HarlemHeat37]

Moses Malone is first on both lists, IMO..

[Rummpd]

Moses is at the top agreed however David Robinson was a greater player than Dirk as he was a two way player and also a much more efficient player (see PER ranking below) - people discount how great DR as but wake me when Dirk has a quadruple double in a game. I would put Karl Malone 2nd, DR 3rd, Dirk 4th, Garnett 5th (in his prime a case can be made he should be 3-4th as also a hell of a defender), Barkley, Ewing .....
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_career.html

The Admiral has an outstanding performance with 34 points, 10 assists, 10 rebounds and 10 steals ...
www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkpT0QdUDIY

[dirk4mvp]

Thanks for the youtube. It's like nobody would've believed you if you didn't post it.

[DPG21920]

Haha

[mavs>spurs]

one would think with one of hte highest per's of all time, robinson would have been able to win prior to duncan getting there and holding his hand...oh wait maybe you're just an idiot and PER doesn't mean shit. call me when robinson actually leads a team to a ring.

[dirk4mvp]

Dirk and Moses are the only 2 to take a team to a ring. All the other guys are fighting for a distant 3rd.

[DPG21920]

No

[dirk4mvp]

Cool post. I'm glad you're just here to talk basketball.

[JamStone]

Moses Malone is first on both lists, IMO..

Moses at the top of both lists. Ewing at the bottom of both lists for me. You can take both those guys out and it's an extremely difficult to rank the rest. Here's how I would go, but it certainly is debatable and I could be convinced to re-arrange them.

All-time:
1. Moses
2. KG
3. Karl Malone
4. Dirk
5. Robinson
6. Barkley
7. Ewing

Peak:
1. Moses
2. Robinson
3. Barkley
4. Dirk
5. KG
6. Karl Malone
7. Ewing

On the all-time list, I'd probably rank David Robinson higher but it felt like his prime years were shorter than the others having begun his NBA career later than most and then having to deal with injuries at the tail end. Plus, there's always that perception of him not working on his post game enough and not being enough to carry a team all the way before Duncan. But had he had 11-12 great seasons as opposed to about 8-9, he'd likely be higher. Longevity comparison was my reasoning.

[#41 Shoot Em Up]

lol robinson above Dirk

[midnightpulp]

Moses is at the top agreed however David Robinson was a greater player than Dirk as he was a two way player and also a much more efficient player (see PER ranking below) - people discount how great DR as but wake me when Dirk has a quadruple double in a game. I would put Karl Malone 2nd, DR 3rd, Dirk 4th, Garnett 5th (in his prime a case can be made he should be 3-4th as also a hell of a defender), Barkley, Ewing .....
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_career.html

The Admiral has an outstanding performance with 34 points, 10 assists, 10 rebounds and 10 steals ...
www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkpT0QdUDIY

Dirk has a higher playoff PER.

[Will Hunting]

All-time:
1. Moses
2. KG
3. Dirk
4. Karl Malone
5. Barkley
6. Ewing
7. Len Bias
8. David Robinson

Peak:
1. Moses
2. KG
3. Barkley
4. Dirk
5. Karl Malone
6. Ewing
7. Reggie Lewis
8. David Robinson

[midnightpulp]

Dirk has earned his ranking above the Admiral. Too many Spurs fans only focus on how great he was in the regular season and quickly forget just how underwhelming he was in the playoffs as the alpha. He doesn't have one, not one, memorable playoff series as the lead dog. I love the guy but those are the facts.

[Blake]

Moses Malone is first on both lists, IMO..

Ewing last on both lists imo

[tlongII]

Foh, Foh, and Foh.

[Dunc n Dave]

lol all the Mavs fans putting Dirk over DRob simply because he won a ring. Give Drob the supporting cast Dirk had last year and he wins it all.

Put Dirk out there with Avery Johnson, Vinny Del Negro, JR Reid, etc. and see how he fares vs Jordan's Bulls, Barkley's Suns, Hakeem & Drexler's Rockets. Similar, if not worse results IMO...

[#41 Shoot Em Up]

lol all the Mavs fans putting Dirk over DRob simply because he won a ring. Give Drob the supporting cast Dirk had last year and he wins it all.


:lol no

[dirk4mvp]

lol all the Mavs fans putting Dirk over DRob simply because he won a ring. Give Drob the supporting cast Dirk had last year and he wins it all.

Put Dirk out there with Avery Johnson, Vinny Del Negro, JR Reid, etc. and see how he fares vs Jordan's Bulls, Barkley's Suns, Hakeem & Drexler's Rockets. Similar, if not worse results IMO...

How can you say that when Dirk has proven he can take a playoff series over by himself and David can't?

[monosylab1k]

Funny how Spurs fans like to come up with retarded phrases like "the ring's the thing!" and would always reference Garnett's one ring as a reason why Dirk wasnt on his level, and how being a #1 option on a title team is why Duncan's 4 is better than Kobe's 2.......

........until Dirk gets a ring and does it as a #1 and clearly establishes himself as a greater player than DRob BY THEIR OWN STANDARD, and then conveniently none of that shit matters anymore to them.

[baseline bum]

You can say David was the better player on paper, that Dirk had some shooters get hot, and so on, but fuck that: Nowitzki led a reasonably good but by no means great cast to a title through Kobe, Durant, LeBron, and Wade, and without homecourt in the two toughest matchups. He turned the Lakers into a bunch of quitting faggots and then shit all over the two most talented swings in the game in the Finals. He turned the whole fucking country against 2x MVP James; sure they hated LeBron before, but they didn't think he was a bitch like they do now.

[DeadlyDynasty]

lol all the Mavs fans putting Dirk over DRob simply because he won a ring. Give Drob the supporting cast Dirk had last year and he wins it all.

Put Dirk out there with Avery Johnson, Vinny Del Negro, JR Reid, etc. and see how he fares vs Jordan's Bulls, Barkley's Suns, Hakeem & Drexler's Rockets. Similar, if not worse results IMO...

Robinson was a playoff choker, and although he's a good moral and spiritual support leader, he was never an on-the-court leader. No matter how many bibles he beats or how many passages of scripture he quoted or how many charities he donated to--he was not a playoff leader. The grab-bag 90's WC sent a different team to the finals almost every year, yet the Spurs couldn't make it (before team leader Duncan) despite winning 50+ games every year? Not one appearance? Really?

During Robinson's playoff tenure as Spurs go-to guy, they never made the Finals and lost 5 times in a series where they had HCA. In only one of those 5 upsets did the team that beat them go on to make the Finals (Rockets, obviously)

His playoff legacy is getting the MVP ripped from his hands in brutal fashion in the WCF.


Tim Duncan saved him, and taught him how to win.

[Goran Dragic]

lol all the Mavs fans putting Dirk over DRob simply because he won a ring. Give Drob the supporting cast Dirk had last year and he wins it all.
:lmao

[jag]

All-time:
1. Moses
2. KG
3. Dirk
4. Karl Malone
5. Barkley
6. Ewing
7. Len Bias
8. David Robinson

Peak:
1. Moses
2. KG
3. Barkley
4. Dirk
5. Karl Malone
6. Ewing
7. Reggie Lewis
8. David Robinson

:lol

[jag]

The Admiral was an amazing player and an even better person.

But Jamstone pretty much said it best. No one quite had a prime like DRob; the guy was an absolute freak on both ends of the floor. But injuries shortened his prime and when healthy, he was unable to lead the Spurs to the Finals, much less a championship.

What Dirk was able to do against the Heat was incredible.

[Killakobe81]

You can say David was the better player on paper, that Dirk had some shooters get hot, and so on, but fuck that: Nowitzki led a reasonably good but by no means great cast to a title through Kobe, Durant, LeBron, and Wade, and without homecourt in the two toughest matchups. He turned the Lakers into a bunch of quitting faggots and then shit all over the two most talented swings in the game in the Finals. He turned the whole fucking country against 2x MVP James; sure they hated LeBron before, but they didn't think he was a bitch like they do now.

Agree, with most of this ... (lakers may have quit but they do not suck cock ... LOL) playoff performances matter.

[Kewni Leonard]

Not even a Mavs fan would take Dirk over Robinson in an all-time fantasy draft, with supporting casts being somewhat equal. Not one with any common sense, at least. Dirk was marginally better than Robinson offensively, but defensively, there is absolutely no comparison. You can't even measure the type of defensive impact a player like that has by statistics.

[Killakobe81]

Not even a Mavs fan would take Dirk over Robinson in an all-time fantasy draft, with supporting casts being somewhat equal. Not one with any common sense, at least. Dirk was marginally better than Robinson offensively, but defensively, there is absolutely no comparison. You can't even measure the type of defensive impact a player like that has by statistics.

Im not sure where I fit on this exactly though Im leaning towards Dirk. But to see dirk is only MARGINAL better than David offensively is a stretch.

[stretch]

Dirk certainly is not a better all-around player than the majority of people on this list. What carries Dirk as far as he has gotten, is his unique mix of size/skillset, and the intangibles he brings. When it comes to those things, arguably none of the players on this list matches up to him.

I definitely won't argue Dirk over Moses Malone. Moses was just amazing. But I think any of the other guys, an argument definitely exists, to the point where it pretty much becomes just a matter of personal preference/team build.

If you want a do-it-all type of player, it's hard to argue against KG, D-Rob, or Karl. In terms of pure talent/ability, I'm not sure any of these guys are better than Barkley. But if you want a guy who is a matchup nightmare, and a proven clutch leader, Dirk is your man.

[Kewni Leonard]

Im not sure where I fit on this exactly though Im leaning towards Dirk. But to see dirk is only MARGINAL better than David offensively is a stretch.

Has Dirk ever come close to 30PPG in a season? Like I said, he's marginally better offensively, at best. The reason I'll give him that is because of him causing mismatches. Robinson is obviously way, way more efficient offensively.

[stretch]

Not even a Mavs fan would take Dirk over Robinson in an all-time fantasy draft, with supporting casts being somewhat equal. Not one with any common sense, at least. Dirk was marginally better than Robinson offensively, but defensively, there is absolutely no comparison. You can't even measure the type of defensive impact a player like that has by statistics.

Just like you can't measure the type of impact a player like Dirk has, in the mismatches he creates on the court, or his clutch ability, by statistics.

All-around game: D-Rob >>> Dirk

Leadership and intangibles: Dirk >>>> D-Rob

[Kewni Leonard]

All-around game: D-Rob >>> Dirk

Leadership and intangibles: Dirk >>>> D-Rob

I would agree with Dirk being a better leader, because all Robinson does is spew religious bullshit. As far as intangibles, they're just that... who knows? It's too hard to say who has better intangibles. I mean, Robinson is 7'1" and a freak of nature athletically, how can you measure his true impact? I'm always taking a player like that over a soft jump shooter. And yes, Dirk is soft. He can't defend and doesn't hit the boards like he should.

[Killakobe81]

Has Dirk ever come close to 30PPG in a season? Like I said, he's marginally better offensively, at best. The reason I'll give him that is because of him causing mismatches. Robinson is obviously way, way more efficient offensively.

Iverson/TMAC has scored that many does that make them a better offensive player than Bird or Dirk?

Robinson was an amazing player kind of like Malone who scored plenty of easy buckets in transition. That is no knock, but I would argue Malone was a better post player and passer. Which is also a part of offense. The reason I give dirk the edge, is because he can be counted on to get buckets late in games and in the shot clock at a better success rate than David, because of the mismatches he created, his ability to hit high degree of difficulty shots, and his amazing touch on the FT line.

[Fabbs]

Rank them twice, one list based on their spots on the all-time list, and the other list based on their peak performances..

David Robinson
Kevin Garnett
Dirk Nowitzki
Karl Malone
Charles Barkley
Moses Malone
Patrick Ewing

Peak
Mo Malone 1983s Championship run
Garnett 2002s rigged year robbed him of a 'ship chance but he was goood.
Dork. Sucked out after the Heat gifted Game 5 but still an impressive playoff run.
Barkley
DR

I'm doing playoff performances.

[Rummpd]

"because all Robinson does is spew religious bullshit"

What a sad comment. Robinson is a true great who served as an officer, and has been greatly honored for a lifetime of great service, as much outside of basketball as in basketball, including the Carver Academy.

In the Olympics Robinson was picked to start over both Shaq and Ewing he was that damm good and if he had had a John Stockton or even a Jason Kidd around him he probably would have won even more than 2 championships.

One of two players in NBA history to lead the league in scoring (1993–94), rebounding (1990–91) and blocked shots (1991–92) during his careerSecond player in NBA history to win Rookie of the Year, Defensive Player of the Year and Most Valuable Player during his career

Only player in NBA history to lead the league in scoring, rebounding, and blocked shots and win awards for Rookie of the Year, Defensive Player of the Year and Most Valuable Player during his careerKareem Abdul-Jabbar achieved all of these except for Defensive Player of the Year, an award which did not exist for most of his career.
Only player in NBA history to rank among top five players in the league in rebounding, blocks and steals in the same season: 1991–92

Ranked first in blocks (4.49 bpg), fourth in rebounding (12.2 rpg) and fifth in steals (2.32 spg).
Robinson was much greater as a player than Dirk period.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Robinson_(basketball)

[stretch]

Has Dirk ever come close to 30PPG in a season? Like I said, he's marginally better offensively, at best. The reason I'll give him that is because of him causing mismatches. Robinson is obviously way, way more efficient offensively.

That would be like saying Shaq > Larry Bird offensively, because he had better scoring averages per 36 minutes over his career, and more 29 ppg seasons than Bird.

Most any NBA player is fully capable of scoring points in the first 43 minutes of the game. If they can consistently score and create offense in the clutch, against elite defensive teams and elite defenders... that is the mark of a truly elite offensive player. Dirk is in the class. I'm not so sure D-Rob will ever be remembered for being that type of offensive player.

[Kewni Leonard]

"because all Robinson does is spew religious bullshit"

What a sad comment. Robinson is a true great who served as an officer, and has been greatly honored for a lifetime of great service, as much outside of basketball as in basketball, including the Carver Academy.

In the Olympics Robinson was picked to start over both Shaq and Ewing he was that damm good and if he had had a John Stockton or even a Jason Kidd around him he probably would have won even more than 2 championships.

One of two players in NBA history to lead the league in scoring (1993–94), rebounding (1990–91) and blocked shots (1991–92) during his careerSecond player in NBA history to win Rookie of the Year, Defensive Player of the Year and Most Valuable Player during his career

Only player in NBA history to lead the league in scoring, rebounding, and blocked shots and win awards for Rookie of the Year, Defensive Player of the Year and Most Valuable Player during his careerKareem Abdul-Jabbar achieved all of these except for Defensive Player of the Year, an award which did not exist for most of his career.
Only player in NBA history to rank among top five players in the league in rebounding, blocks and steals in the same season: 1991–92

Ranked first in blocks (4.49 bpg), fourth in rebounding (12.2 rpg) and fifth in steals (2.32 spg).
Robinson was much greater as a player than Dirk period.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Robinson_(basketball (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Robinson_%28basketball))

Robinson is a great human being and an excellent role model, but that does not change the fact religion is bullshit and that is not the way to lead a professional sports team.

[Kewni Leonard]

That would be like saying Shaq > Larry Bird offensively, because he had better scoring averages per 36 minutes over his career, and more 29 ppg seasons than Bird.

Most any NBA player is fully capable of scoring points in the first 43 minutes of the game. If they can consistently score and create offense in the clutch, against elite defensive teams and elite defenders... that is the mark of a truly elite offensive player. Dirk is in the class. I'm not so sure D-Rob will ever be remembered for being that type of offensive player.

What I do know is that Robinson scores at over a 50% clip for his career, Dirk does not... and is sure to fall much lower by the time his career is over. Points count the same, whether they are in the 1st or 4th quarter.

[stretch]

I'm always taking a player like that over a soft jump shooter. And yes, Dirk is soft. He can't defend and doesn't hit the boards like he should.

Yes, one of two players in NBA history to average 25 and 10 in the playoffs (the other being Shaq), is a soft jumpshooter who doesn't hit the boards...

Robinson must blow ass at rebounding, considering Dirk is so awful at rebounding, yet only averages .2 less rebounds per game for his playoff career average. He must blow even more ass at scoring considering he averages almost 8 less points than a soft jumpshooter, for a playoff career average.

[Killakobe81]

What I do know is that Robinson scores at over a 50% clip for his career, Dirk does not... and is sure to fall much lower by the time his career is over. Points count the same, whether they are in the 1st or 4th quarter.

Great point. But Robinson was a rugged defender rebounder, but a jumpshooting big man with a quick first step on offense. Because he can dunk does that make him tough? Wa sthe lack of a reliable backdown post game make him soft? When he played many announcers urged David to use those muscles to overpower his defenders he preferred to drive around or shoot over them ...some even argued his religon made him soft ...

Not making those arguments, just saying ...

[stretch]

What I do know is that Robinson scores at over a 50% clip for his career, Dirk does not... and is sure to fall much lower by the time his career is over. Points count the same, whether they are in the 1st or 4th quarter.

Points do count the same. But they are much harder to come by in a close game, against elite defensive teams. They are also much harder to come by in the playoffs, when teams play much harder. This is evidently an issue Robinson faces considering his poor scoring averages for his playoff career.

It's also much different when you get a lot of your points early in the game off of putbacks, dunks, and medium to short range jumpshots. Late in games, its much harder to get those kinds of buckets.

[Sportstudi]

Yes, one of two players in NBA history to average 25 and 10 in the playoffs (the other being Shaq), is a soft jumpshooter who doesn't hit the boards...


Shaq was in that class, but he dropped out (due to points). Actually, there are four players right now who have a career average of 25+ and 10+ in the playoffs: Dirk, Hakeem, Bob Pettit and Elgin Baylor. That's it.

[Killakobe81]

Shaq was in that class, but he dropped out (due to points). Actually, there are four players right now who have a career average of 25+ and 10+ in the playoffs: Dirk, Hakeem, Bob Pettit and Elgin Baylor. That's it.

that is pretty elite company ...LOL at the Hakeem wasn't consistent argument.

[stretch]

Shaq was in that class, but he dropped out (due to points). Actually, there are four players right now who have a career average of 25+ and 10+ in the playoffs: Dirk, Hakeem, Bob Pettit and Elgin Baylor. That's it.

Sorry, I meant to say active players, not in history. Either way, he's in great company.

[Hoops Czar]

Rank them twice, one list based on their spots on the all-time list, and the other list based on their peak performances..

David Robinson
Kevin Garnett
Dirk Nowitzki
Karl Malone
Charles Barkley
Moses Malone
Patrick Ewing


The only thing i can tell you for sure is ewing doesn't belong on that list.

[Jodelo]

:cry:cry:cry:cry

[Killakobe81]

The only thing i can tell you for sure is ewing doesn't belong on that list.

he belongs, I agree though he is ranks near the bottom ...

dont get all the hate on Patrick ... he wasnt clutch, but he was a warrior and if starks could hit some open shots he has the same number of titles as Hakeem and Dirk.

Not his biggest fan, but the hate here on him is crazy.

[DAF86]

What Dirk was able to do against the Heat was incredible.

Shooting 41% from the field?

[Jodelo]

Shooting 41% from the field?

Coming through in the clutch?

[baseline bum]

dont get all the hate on Patrick ... he wasnt clutch, but he was a warrior and if starks could hit some open shots he has the same number of titles as Hakeem and Dirk.


Or if Patrick could have shot better than 36% in the Finals.

[stretch]

Shooting 41% from the field?

Considering he was being doubled non-stop, dealing with a flu for a couple games, and the fact that even on the two nights he didn't shoot well, he came through big in the 4th quarter, I'd say that stat is pretty meaningless.

Even MJ had various series' where he shot as bad, or worse, but ultimately he still came through consistently when the team needed him most, which is what most people will remember, aside from his haters. Similarly, Dirk had a series where his % was not particularly high, but most people remember how big he came through for them in clutch situations, aside from haters like yourself.

[JamStone]

Considering he was being doubled non-stop, dealing with a flu for a couple games, and the fact that even on the two nights he didn't shoot well, he came through big in the 4th quarter, I'd say that stat is pretty meaningless.

Even MJ had various series' where he shot as bad, or worse, but ultimately he still came through consistently when the team needed him most, which is what most people will remember, aside from his haters. Similarly, Dirk had a series where his % was not particularly high, but most people remember how big he came through for them in clutch situations, aside from haters like yourself.

Lol I had to laugh because that totally reads like a post a Laker fan would use defending Kobe's shooting percentage. Not saying it's not true or legitimate, just was amusing to me.

[JamStone]

dont get all the hate on Patrick ... he wasnt clutch, but he was a warrior and if starks could hit some open shots he has the same number of titles as Hakeem and Dirk.

2 or 1? Hakeem and Dirk don't have the same number of titles.

[DAF86]

Considering he was being doubled non-stop, dealing with a flu for a couple games, and the fact that even on the two nights he didn't shoot well, he came through big in the 4th quarter, I'd say that stat is pretty meaningless.

Even MJ had various series' where he shot as bad, or worse, but ultimately he still came through consistently when the team needed him most, which is what most people will remember, aside from his haters. Similarly, Dirk had a series where his % was not particularly high, but most people remember how big he came through for them in clutch situations, aside from haters like yourself.

Dirk was missing the same kind of shots he made all of last season.

[m>s]

the prime KG was the best of 'em all, having an overall rating of 99 in video games

[stretch]

Dirk was missing the same kind of shots he made all of last season.

and?

You mean to tell me that none of the great players in NBA history has missed shots in the NBA Finals that they normally make?

hm, okay.

[DPG21920]

Dirk certainly is not a better all-around player than the majority of people on this list. What carries Dirk as far as he has gotten, is his unique mix of size/skillset, and the intangibles he brings. When it comes to those things, arguably none of the players on this list matches up to him.

I definitely won't argue Dirk over Moses Malone. Moses was just amazing. But I think any of the other guys, an argument definitely exists, to the point where it pretty much becomes just a matter of personal preference/team build.

If you want a do-it-all type of player, it's hard to argue against KG, D-Rob, or Karl. In terms of pure talent/ability, I'm not sure any of these guys are better than Barkley. But if you want a guy who is a matchup nightmare, and a proven clutch leader, Dirk is your man.

Good post and agree 100%. These types of arguments can be fun every once and awhile, but now most of us are at the point where we've said our views on the matter.

[DAF86]

and?

You mean to tell me that none of the great players in NBA history has missed shots in the NBA Finals that they normally make?

hm, okay.

And you were putting excuses as to why he shot 41%, he was taking the same kind of shots he took during the whole playoffs he was just missing them, and there's no problem with that (specially since they won the series) but don't put excuses.

[endrity]

Shooting 41% from the field?

Jam's on point that this looks like a Kobe apologist argument, but Dirk's shooting in the series was heavily skewed by game 4 when he was sick and the first half of game 6. So no, it wasn't consistently bad. Without those two moments he's close to 50%.

But in the end he made every single big play in games 2,3,4 and almost all in 5. And that's all that matters.

[DAF86]

Jam's on point that this looks like a Kobe apologist argument, but Dirk's shooting in the series was heavily skewed by game 4 when he was sick and the first half of game 6. So no, it wasn't consistently bad. Without those two moments he's close to 50%.

But in the end he made every single big play in games 2,3,4 and almost all in 5. And that's all that matters.

Game 1: 7-18
Game 2: 10-22
Game 3: 11-21
Game 4: 6-19
Game 5: 9-18
Game 6: 9-27

[endrity]

Two points on Dirk v. DRob or Karl Malone or Chuck or KG.

Dirk has won three playoff series he had no business winning, 06 Spurs, 11 Lakers, 11 Heat. Two of them agains the reigning champions, the other against two players that were being labeled as the best in the game. All three series without HC, in all three Dirk coming out as arguably the best player on the floor (though 06 Duncan was right there as well). The other guys in the list don't come close to doing that. Why? Look below.

Second, on the idea of offense v. all around-ness. People have a hard time understanding how an NBA roster is built nowadays and go on with this MYTH of players having to do everything. The point is that when you pay a superstar $20mil a year he needs to be your closer, the best offensive player on the court. If he does that, than you can go and get yourself a Bruce Bowen or Ben Wallace for 5 mil. Because at the end of the day you are not asking your star to consume himself defending. The point of Dirk not being a great defender is irrelevant if he's not the one actually doing the defending on the other team's main threat.

However, if your 20 mil guy can't dominate, if he is a KG, than the issue of building a roster gets more complicated. Now you need more than a Bruce Bowen, you need someone who can get you some points as well. But that guy will cost more, he'll cost 8 mil. And so with the cap you quickly run out of space and flexibility because you're spending extra money to cover for the holes in your superstar's game.

It's not accidental that KG needed two All Stars to win a ring, while Dirk went twice to the finals without another one by his side or that even with the shitty rosters in 08-2010 he never missed the playoffs in a more competitive West than the one KG had to deal with when he couldn't make the playoffs. Once your star dominates offensively it's easy for the other players to fill in the rest of the holes. If he can't do that, than the others have to overextend.

If this was MLS, or European soccer, where there was no limit to how much a team can spend then maybe Dirk isn't as valuable a commodity. Teams will spend whatever they need. But when optimizing your resources is key, Dirk as a foundation is much better to have than a KG or DRob, jack of all trades master of none types who can not do the one thing that the 20 mil guy is supposed to do, i.e score the last basket.

[endrity]

Game 1: 7-18
Game 2: 10-22
Game 3: 11-21
Game 4: 6-19
Game 5: 9-18
Game 6: 9-27

Seems like I am right, just a couple of shots below 50%. And ofcourse it was very convenient of you to use FG% instead of TS%, which where Dirk's shooting dominance can be seen clearly.

All of this ofcourse with an injured left hand. In fact what is crazy about his Finals was how much more he had to overcome. Not only were Butler and Roddy out, but then Haywood gets injured in Game 1 and and Mahinmi has to play serious minutes. Peja is completely unable to do anything in the series, and the team has to rely on Brian fricking Cardinal in the NBA Finals. Then he injures his hand, then he gets sick, than he has to overcome the deficit in game 2, than he has to finally defeat his demons after an awful start in game 6.

It was almost like destiny required Dirk to win in the most difficult possible way against a team widely picked to run over the Mavs. Only by doing that could he prove once and for all that he truly was a legendary player, that his stats were the real story all those years, not the myth that people created.

[DPG21920]

Endrity, I get what you are saying ^^ above, but where I somewhat disagree with that is when you are comparing someone who is way above average in an area (Dirk is a greater offensive player, but David is still elite there) compared to most and then on the other side of the coin one is a elite while the other is sub par (Robinson was a legit defensive anchor while Dirk isn't even in the discussion) that is where it becomes cloudy to me. If you are talking about one vs the other in terms of dominant (say Ben Wallace defense vs Dirk offense) it's a no brainer that you go with a guy like Dirk. But when it's not a case of weak/strong vs weak/strong but really strong/elite vs elite/sub par it gets tougher.

[DAF86]

Well, since the comment you quoted said 41% from the field I thought that was what we were arguing.

And don't divert, we're talking Dirk's finals shooting %, Dallas won the ship and Dirk won finals MVP (rightly so) but that's not what we're arguing here.

P/S: If we take away all the shots he missed, he has a 100 shooting % during the finals :rolleyes

[endrity]

Endrity, I get what you are saying ^^ above, but where I somewhat disagree with that is when you are comparing someone who is way above average in an area (Dirk is a greater offensive player, but David is still elite there) compared to most and then on the other side of the coin one is a elite while the other is sub par (Robinson was a legit defensive anchor while Dirk isn't even in the discussion) that is where it becomes cloudy to me. If you are talking about one vs the other in terms of dominant (say Ben Wallace defense vs Dirk offense) it's a no brainer that you go with a guy like Dirk. But when it's not a case of weak/strong vs weak/strong but really strong/elite vs elite/sub par it gets tougher.

But the point is that DRob was never the best offensive player in a series. Hakeem was, Duncan was, not DRob. Once the other stars matches your star's production or surpasses it as was the case with Hakeem than you are asking your other guys to make up the difference. And that is of course hard to do. Those guys are there to hit a timely 3, get a rebound, and play defense. If they extend themselves their weaknesses will be shown.

It's not by chance that the Spurs won the 03 championship when Duncan was >>>>> than both Kobe and Shaq. Once he matched those guys, than SJax, Ginobili, Parker and Claxton simply had to play their game. That was it.

[endrity]

Well, since the comment you quoted said 41% from the field I thought that was what we're arguing.

And don't divert, we're talking Dirk's finals shooting %, Dallas won the ship and Dirk won finals MVP (rightly so) but that's not what we're arguing here.

P/S: If we take away all the shots he missed, he has a 100 shooting % during the finals :rolleyes:

You clearly missed my point, and I said that it does look like I am being a bit of an apologist.

But, the fact is Dirk didn't have a consistently bad shooting series. He was quite good throughout the majority of it. If anything is going to look like a statistical outlier is a game where he was sick (seriously, are you not going to give a guy that?) and a bad first half in game 6. 6 quarters of an anomaly, almost 50% shooting in the other 18. You decide what is more representative of his true performance.

[DAF86]

You clearly missed my point, and I said that it does look like I am being a bit of an apologist.

But, the fact is Dirk didn't have a consistently bad shooting series. He was quite good throughout the majority of it. If anything is going to look like a statistical outlier is a game where he was sick (seriously, are you not going to give a guy that?) and a bad first half in game 6. 6 quarters of an anomaly, almost 50% shooting in the other 18. You decide what is more representative of his true performance.

Why is the first half of game six an anomaly?

[DAF86]

BTW, lol at 7-18 beign a couple of shots under 50%. 7-18 is 38%.

[endrity]

Why is the first half of game six an anomaly?

You really don't know the concept of a statistical outlier do you?

Here's how you look at it. Student A takes 5 exams, and aces the first four and then fails the last one. He gets B- as an overall grade. Student B takes the same 5 exams, and scores B, B+, B-, B-, C+ for an average of B- as well.

At the end of the course A and B come to you and ask for a chance to improve their grade, claiming that this and that prevented them from truly achieving the grade they deserved. If you are the prof, who do you really grant that chance to? Well A of course, he had done so well otherwise except for one grade that is completely out of line with the others. B? Yeah, he seems like he's more or less the same student throughout.

Dirk shot 1 for 12 in the first half of game 6 and then 8-15 in the second. It's clear which one was more in line with the rest of his performance throughout the series.

[endrity]

BTW, lol at 7-18 beign a couple of shots under 50%. 7-18 is 38%.

In all of those 4 games you clown, he's only 5 shots below 50%. In all the 4 games I mentioned. I did not single out game 3 either, where he's above 50%. And btw, since you want to discus stats, you do realise that 7-18 is only two made shots away from 50%?

[DAF86]

Dirk in 12 NBA finals games has a shooting% of 40. It's not like he played two or three.

[DAF86]

In all of those 4 games you clown, he's only 5 shots below 50%. In all the 4 games I mentioned. I did not single out game 3 either, where he's above 50%. And btw, since you want to discus stats, you do realise that 7-18 is only two made shots away from 50%?

Two made shots(/two less misses) is a big difference (from 50 to 38%). And I don't care for your nitpicking, Dirk shot 41% from the field in the finals, that's the fact and like I said: there's nothing wrong with that, he won the championship so it's all good.

[endrity]

Dirk in 12 NBA finals games has a shooting% of 40. It's not like he played two or three.

I thought we are talking about 2011, you know the achievement that makes him stand out compared to the non-Moses in that list.

[DAF86]

I thought we are talking about 2011, you know the achievement that makes him stand out compared to the non-Moses in that list.

You said him shooting that poorly during the finals was an anomaly, I brought up the '06 finals to prove that it isn't such of an anomaly.

[endrity]

Two made shots(/two less misses) is a big difference (from 50 to 38%). And I don't care for your nitpicking, Dirk shot 41% from the field in the finals, that's the fact and like I said: there's nothing wrong with that, he won the championship so it's all good.

Of course, of course.

You know, 2-4 is 50% while 1-4 is 25%. Now if someone listened to you, we'd be dealing with an awful shooting performance and a good one. In reality it's only a single shot that's the difference. But then again, it's clear from this discussion how much you really understand statistics.

Again, if I can't bring up games 2,3 and 5 as great performances but I am willing to throw in game 1 in there as well, you should be more than pleased. My point is very clear, no matter how much you try to get away from it, in 4 games Dirk was almost 50%. The sick game, and the first half of game 6 skew the results. Now, since they are specific events, not consistent through the series they can be treated as likely outliers.

p.s again, how convenient of you to use an outdated FG% statistic, instead of the one which stat geeks really rave about when discussing Dirk, TS%. You clown you!

[endrity]

You said him shooting that poorly during the finals was an anomaly, I brought up the '06 finals to prove that it isn't such of an anomaly.

I also said there are three series (06 Spurs, 11 Lakers, 11 Heat) that he had no business winning that really separate him from the rest.

Keep up Argie troll, you're losing your touch.

[DAF86]

I also said there are three series (06 Spurs, 11 Lakers, 11 Heat) that he had no business winning that really separate him from the rest.

Keep up Argie troll, you're losing your touch.

:lol What the fuck does that have to do with anything.

[endrity]

:lol What the fuck does that have to do with anything.

huh? how about this whole thread? what, you can't read, now they don't have schools in Buenos Aires? You're making a great country look bad dude.

As Heinrich said, take this one out. You've lost every single point you tried to make in this thread, now you are resorting to completely changing the topic of discussing.

Admirable, but ultimately futile, trolling job by you.

[endrity]

Two points on Dirk v. DRob or Karl Malone or Chuck or KG.

Dirk has won three playoff series he had no business winning, 06 Spurs, 11 Lakers, 11 Heat. Two of them agains the reigning champions, the other against two players that were being labeled as the best in the game. All three series without HC, in all three Dirk coming out as arguably the best player on the floor (though 06 Duncan was right there as well). The other guys in the list don't come close to doing that. Why? Look below.

Second, on the idea of offense v. all around-ness. People have a hard time understanding how an NBA roster is built nowadays and go on with this MYTH of players having to do everything. The point is that when you pay a superstar $20mil a year he needs to be your closer, the best offensive player on the court. If he does that, than you can go and get yourself a Bruce Bowen or Ben Wallace for 5 mil. Because at the end of the day you are not asking your star to consume himself defending. The point of Dirk not being a great defender is irrelevant if he's not the one actually doing the defending on the other team's main threat.

However, if your 20 mil guy can't dominate, if he is a KG, than the issue of building a roster gets more complicated. Now you need more than a Bruce Bowen, you need someone who can get you some points as well. But that guy will cost more, he'll cost 8 mil. And so with the cap you quickly run out of space and flexibility because you're spending extra money to cover for the holes in your superstar's game.

It's not accidental that KG needed two All Stars to win a ring, while Dirk went twice to the finals without another one by his side or that even with the shitty rosters in 08-2010 he never missed the playoffs in a more competitive West than the one KG had to deal with when he couldn't make the playoffs. Once your star dominates offensively it's easy for the other players to fill in the rest of the holes. If he can't do that, than the others have to overextend.

If this was MLS, or European soccer, where there was no limit to how much a team can spend then maybe Dirk isn't as valuable a commodity. Teams will spend whatever they need. But when optimizing your resources is key, Dirk as a foundation is much better to have than a KG or DRob, jack of all trades master of none types who can not do the one thing that the 20 mil guy is supposed to do, i.e score the last basket.

Daffie, here ya go, maybe this will refresh your memory, making it easy for those Argie an-alphabets.

[DAF86]

huh? how about this whole thread? what, you can't read, now they don't have schools in Buenos Aires? You're making a great country look bad dude.

As Heinrich said, take this one out. You've lost every single point you tried to make in this thread, now you are resorting to completely changing the topic of discussing.

If you say so :lol


Admirable, but ultimately futile, trolling job by you.

Not that admirable since I didn't even try and much less futile since you sound very mad, tbh.

[DAF86]

Daffie, here ya go, maybe this will refresh your memory, making it easy for those Argie an-alphabets.

Again, what does that have to do with OUR personal argument?

[endrity]

Again, what does that have to do with OUR personal argument?

Our???

Now, you might think there is something personal between the two of us, but from my side it's all about the topic, i.e how to separate between some great players. I offered my take on why Moses aside, Dirk has a legit argument to rank above the others. Even DPG seemed to agree with me ultimately on Dirk making the job easier for the one building the roster due to his unmatched offensive game.

Now you got smth to add or is it still all about Manu's gold medal?

[DAF86]

You quoted me about my "41% shooting" coment, I argued with you about that, never touched other arguments of this thread. That's why I said OUR personal argument. I don't have anything against you, I don't know you.

[Killakobe81]

2 or 1? Hakeem and Dirk don't have the same number of titles.

Come on Jam. The hit open shots is an obvious refference to Game 7 of the "Oj chase" NBA finals. IF starks makes 2 or 3 more shots of the what 15 he missed in Game 7, Ewing has 1 ring and Hakeem doesnt have his first. That would of meant:

Ewing: 1
Hakeem: 1
Dirk: 1

I think Hakeem is greater than Ewing, no doubt about it. My point is that it seems Ewing is getting a lot of hate when his team was able to get 3 wins plus push them in Game 7 vs. Hakeem and the rox, when David and Shaq did not get anywhere close. Sure Ewing shot like shit, that Knicks squad was brutal offensively ... But Hakeem was at his peak and he shitted on every big man over those 2 years ...

[stretch]

Manu > Dirk

:sleep

[baseline bum]

Come on Jam. The hit open shots is an obvious refference to Game 7 of the "Oj chase" NBA finals. IF starks makes 2 or 3 more shots of the what 15 he missed in Game 7, Ewing has 1 ring and Hakeem doesnt have his first. That would of meant:

Ewing: 1
Hakeem: 1
Dirk: 1

I think Hakeem is greater than Ewing, no doubt about it. My point is that it seems Ewing is getting a lot of hate when his team was able to get 3 wins plus push them in Game 7 vs. Hakeem and the rox, when David and Shaq did not get anywhere close. Sure Ewing shot like shit, that Knicks squad was brutal offensively ... But Hakeem was at his peak and he shitted on every big man over those 2 years ...

Ewing shot 36% in that series. :lmao

He has no one to blame but himself for not ringing.

[JamStone]

Come on Jam. The hit open shots is an obvious refference to Game 7 of the "Oj chase" NBA finals. IF starks makes 2 or 3 more shots of the what 15 he missed in Game 7, Ewing has 1 ring and Hakeem doesnt have his first. That would of meant:

Ewing: 1
Hakeem: 1
Dirk: 1

I think Hakeem is greater than Ewing, no doubt about it. My point is that it seems Ewing is getting a lot of hate when his team was able to get 3 wins plus push them in Game 7 vs. Hakeem and the rox, when David and Shaq did not get anywhere close. Sure Ewing shot like shit, that Knicks squad was brutal offensively ... But Hakeem was at his peak and he shitted on every big man over those 2 years ...

My bad. You're right. I wasn't thinking of taking Hakeem's away. Brain fart.

[Killakobe81]

Ewing shot 36% in that series. :lmao

He has no one to blame but himself for not ringing.

I cant argue too much on this point. Beside im no Ewing apologist. Just saying that struggling while being guarded by two of the better post defenders in the NBA (people forget Thorpe was one of the better ones)along with a young horry (who would later become one of the better undersized post defenders) is bit unfair. Despite his 36% game 7 is still on the stubborness of Starks and Riley ...

[baseline bum]

Despite his 36% game 7 is still on the stubborness of Starks and Riley ...

You're going to force-feed Ewing when he's clearly not up to the task? And you're making it sound like Ewing was double-teamed every second of that series. I'd find it pretty hard to believe considering the depth that Knicks team had at the 4 with Oakley and Mason. That 94 Rockets team wasn't very good (they constantly blew big leads) and if Ewing shows up, the Knicks kill them.