Was that really Tim Duncan?

[GSH]

I was on the road, and had to listen to most of today's game against the Clippers on the radio. Even though Duncan pulled down a lot of boards, it sounded like he really struggled to do anything offensively, especially around the paint, against the Clippers' athletic bigs. Okay - that's not entirely unexpected.

But there were (at least) a couple of plays late in the game where Duncan took the ball in the LOW blocks, with no one between him and the basket but Chris Paul. Both times he was hesitant, waited until Paul got some help, and passed the ball out. The first time I saw it, the Clips got a defensive stop. The second time Gary Neal wound up sinking a 3 from the corner. But I'm not so sure that a happy outcome like that is a good measure of what happened on that play.

Tim Duncan being covered by Chris Paul just a few feet from the basket? There was a time when both of those plays would have been automatic buckets for Timmy - with maybe an and-1 opportunity thrown in for good measure. We all know about his knees, and that he is finding other ways to score. But has it gotten to the point that he can't score at all around the basket unassisted? I'm not trying to knock Tim, just wondering if that's the reality we're living with now. Because it really looked like he didn't want to take it in himself.

Like I said, I was late to see the game and still unloading, so I might have missed something. Honestly, I'd love for someone to convince me of that. If the only answer is, "He was trying to suck in the defense" - don't bother. That's something you do when you're trying to get someone else an easier shot. There shouldn't be anything easier than Tim Duncan being guarded by a 6'0" defender, close to the rim.



.

[dylankerouac]

I'm upset that I didn't plan on OT game and didn't save an extra 20 minutes : (

[Arcadian]

But has it gotten to the point that he can't score at all around the basket unassisted? .

No, and why do you think that? He's been scoring on the low block quite effectively this season overall. You're basing this on one game.

It'll be okay, man. Everything is going to be okay.

[Cane]

On one play where CP3 was defending Duncan, Duncan passed the ball to Parker. I expected Parker to throw it back to Duncan as he re-established himself in the post, but instead Parker shot a 3. I don't remember if the shot clock was winding down, but I think there was some poor recognition by the Spurs on that play. And as great as Parker has been, he has missed passing opportunities to wide-open shooters (Danny Green was wide open for a particular possession or two at the end of the game) or for example that CP3/Duncan post up. Its part of the gameplan to have Parker take control but still, those are some good looks there

The other time I remember Duncan posting up on CP3 was of course the aforementioned Gary Neal play.

But in this hectic season, Duncan's days of carrying the offense is going to be inconsistent and it has been for the past several years, tbh :( This season has been terrible for players with bad knees, even a young guard in his prime like CP3 can look old. Kobe and KG can't really run up and down the court either, etc etc

[TDMVPDPOY]

remove first quarter, he did well...

[spursfan1000]

It was kind of scary to see someone who has been leading the franchise for 10+ years, to make such big mistakes in the most crucial parts of the game.

[DesignatedT]

He played well. Missed some shots he shoulda made but overall I thought he played a good game. That last possession in the post with the kick out to Neal was a great pass.

[GSH]

No, and why do you think that? He's been scoring on the low block quite effectively this season overall. You're basing this on one game.

It'll be okay, man. Everything is going to be okay.


First, spare me the patronizing crap. It doesn't help any serious discussion of the game.

What I said was "unassisted". I know that he scores when Tony (or someone else) sucks in the defense, and off the pick and roll. But I'm talking about posting up a defender, heads-up. Or in this case, going straight at a point guard, from just a few feet away.

If you didn't notice the plays, no big deal. But it looked unusual enough for me to comment, and ask some opinions. I would have expected both of those plays to have been automatic for Tim. Just like when Tony had Blake Griffin between him and the basket - he immediately went around him and went straight to the rim.



Edit: Why does it have to be all one way or the other with some of you people? If anyone asks a question, they're automatically saying he didn't play well at all, or he can't play at all anymore. You imagine shit that isn't there, and then try to argue about it. Damn.

[DPG21920]

GSH has been bringing good takes, but has lowered his sense of humor some lately :lol

[GB20]

he didn't have any legs at the end. he almost played the whole game. we really need a big guy right now.

[DPG21920]

But I agree with him about some of the stupid things that happen here and the bad logic at times. You just have to know that going in and adjust accordingly. Now let's go out there and get some stops.

[dylankerouac]

he didn't have any legs at the end. he almost played the whole game. we really need a big guy right now.

This.

[Proxy]

I think you're on to something... a reality that no one wants to admit, but I've thought the same thing.

He's still a reliable finisher on the assist, but as far as posting up goes... he doesn't seem to have it in him anymore. I assume it's mostly because of his knee rather than his age. He had to lose weight to reduce strain, but lost his power on the block in doing so. He wasn't ever a quick player like prime KG, but was always fast enough to capitalize. Now he is at risk of getting his shot blocked even if he gets and initial advantage from whatever post move.

[dylankerouac]

I think you're on to something... a reality that no one wants to admit, but I've thought the same thing.

He's still a reliable finisher on the assist, but as far as posting up goes... he doesn't seem to have it in him anymore. I assume it's mostly because of his knee rather than his age. He had to lose weight to reduce strain, but lost his power on the block in doing so. He wasn't ever a quick player like prime KG, but was always fast enough to capitalize. Now he is at risk of getting his shot blocked even if he gets and initial advantage from whatever post move.

Insightful analysis.

[GSH]

GSH has been bringing good takes, but has lowered his since of humor some lately :lol

Echhh. I was just hoping for some serious comments from some of the good posters here. I've gotten sort of spoiled lately.

Really, I was sort of hoping that someone would tell me that there was a help defender that I didn't notice, just waiting to pounce. Or maybe, since I didn't get to see a lot of the game, that Duncan was just exhausted at that point. Because seeing him (at least apparently) back off from Chris Paul? I really didn't like it.



he didn't have any legs at the end. he almost played the whole game. we really need a big guy right now.


See... like that. It's hard to get a good feel for minutes by listening, while you drive through a downpour. I'll just tell myself that he passed because he was tired.

[DPG21920]

He missed some easy shots, they brought some help and I also think he was tired. My real guess is that with Tim's smarts, the officiating crew & how things look, he was nervous about Paul's ability to flop and get a call.

[Proxy]

He missed some easy shots, they brought some help and I also think he was tired. My real guess is that with Tim's smarts, the officiating crew & how things look, he was nervous about Paul's ability to flop and get a call.

Yeah, valid point there. He got some huge flop/phantom calls to get the Clips in good position at the end of regulation. The turnover to Neal almost makes me believe in something as ridiculous as karma... almost.

[GSH]

He missed some easy shots, they brought some help and I also think he was tired. My real guess is that with Tim's smarts, the officiating crew & how things look, he was nervous about Paul's ability to flop and get a call.

Thanks. That makes sense, anyway. He wasn't feeling the shot, and he was tired. And, yeah, they were both at critical points in the game. He's such a smart player, it's difficult to second guess too much.

But still... that all still says something about the state of his post game. Signs of being mortal.

[Russ]

I was at the game and I thought Duncan looked fine.

Duncan (and the other Spurs interior defenders) did a nice job defending the Clippers' bigs straight up. The only dunks the Clips got were on transition plays and/or cuts off picks. Even Bonner stuck his nose in there and played pretty solid D.

Duncan looks better than he has since the '10 playoffs.

He ain't the problem (if there is one).

[Ice009]

Kenyon Martin was moving his feet really fast. I am sure he would have come with help if Tim went into a move.

[DMC]

The same TD that everyone said should retire at the end of the season is putting up nightly double doubles. It's amazing how good the guy is that he can diminish greatly and still be better than most bigs in the league.

[Spurs7794]

He probably could have been more aggressive but we got the tiebreaking shot out of his patience on the second one. It's that same patience which separated him from all of the other big men over the last 15 years.
I actually think Tim has been playing WAY above his 2011 level. He has struggled to finish in the post but his shots are not nearly as ugly as last year. Honestly, there was about once or twice a game last year where he would try one of his go-to moves from the past and the shot would be way off and it would look like garbage. His shot selection in the post has been a step up from last year.
I know some people feel like he's been shooting too much this year but I like it. Last year, I felt like he kept passing up shots to let lesser players take shots. He's always been a rhythm player and this year, I think his shooting more has helped him be in a better rhythm. I have no stats to back me up but I feel like that has definitely gotten him to be more reliable in the 4th quarters this year compared with 2011.

[GSH]

The same TD that everyone said should retire at the end of the season is putting up nightly double doubles. It's amazing how good the guy is that he can diminish greatly and still be better than most bigs in the league.

100% with you on that, DMC. It's hard to believe that anyone could look at what he's done this season and not get that. Believe me, questioning his post game has nothing to do with thinking that he's ready for the glue factory. When Shaq couldn't do the same old thing anymore, he was finished. Tim can do it so many ways. He'll be a very good player until he finally decides to retire.

Seriously - how many bigs in the league right now could put up 17 rebounds on this Clippers' team - especially without it being some fluke night? How many 36 year-old bigs in the history of the game could have? They didn't destroy us with second chance points because of it. It was a little hard seeing him pass on CP3, but I don't have any doubts that the Spurs are a better team with Tim on the floor.

[mercos]

Tim Duncan now struggles with his back to the basket. He has all season. He is much more effective facing up. He rarely gets good looks when he makes a back to the basket move and he has real trouble backing down almost any big. Due to his knees I don't believe he has the power to move most bigs in the post or get around them before they recover defensively. He has had some burst here and there, but he is now at his most effective facing up and attacking or shooting a jumper.

[Arcadian]

First, spare me the patronizing crap. It doesn't help any serious discussion of the game.

Haha, really? Given the general douchebaggery of the Spurstalk culture, I would think that you would be more appreciative of a polite gesture!

I was being completely serious. It's going to be okay. (gives you a hug)

[will_spurs]

Seriously - how many bigs in the league right now could put up 17 rebounds on this Clippers' team - especially without it being some fluke night? How many 36 year-old bigs in the history of the game could have?

Duncan actually had the most rebounds by any player against the Clippers this season (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pgl_finder.cgi?request=1&player=&match=game&year_min=2012&year_max=2012&age_min=0&age_max=99&team_id=&opp_id=LAC&is_playoffs=&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&game_month=&game_location=&game_result=&is_starter=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&c1stat=trb&c1comp=gt&c1val=12&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=trb) with 17. Next ones: Bynum with 16, Howard and Love with 14.

List of games with 17+ rebounds from 35+ year old player (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pgl_finder.cgi?request=1&player=&match=game&year_min=&year_max=2012&age_min=35&age_max=99&team_id=&opp_id=&is_playoffs=&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&game_month=&game_location=&game_result=&is_starter=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&c1stat=trb&c1comp=gt&c1val=17&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=trb)

That's 228 games (including last night's) only since the 85-86 season, and Dennis Rodman is the main culprit here. And yeah, Duncan is "only" 35.

BTW Marcus Camby is having amazing rebounding numbers this year for a 37y old with Portland. He already has 3 games with 20+ rebounds.

[shraediggz]

Why are people such nut hugging band wagoners?

The whole spurs team came out flat (hence the reason why we were down by 15 early in the game). The spurs found a way to rally, Duncan grabbed 17 rebounds, 6 of which were offensive boards. That's 6 extra possessions thanks to Duncan, I'll take that he only shot 5 of 14, two shots under 50%, when he gets us 6 extra possessions.

He might have been hesitant on a couple of possessions, but you've got to understand that the Clippers defenders were caving in on the paint and were doing so quickly. If you want to blame someone for Duncan's ineffectiveness on the low block, blame the floor spacing, they did hit 12 three's, but that hardly kept the clipps from collapsing or sending over help D'.

Duncan did hit a few spot ups with skip passes and such. The old man played well this game, like he has many times this season, I think he's a better player this year than he was last year. If Duncan was playing for any other team, he'd be riding a double double streak, playing 33-35 minutes a game, and putting up 18-20 and 10's.

What, did we expect him to be Tim Duncan-hall of fame level-until this guy turned 41? Look at Olajuwon's post prime career. Injury riddled and stuck playing for mediocre Houston and Toronto teams.

Duncan is doing fine. He's adapting and finding ways to stay efficient and not hurt this squad. And more importantly, he's staying healthy-and that should be our biggest concerned (at least until Duncan proves that he's no longer an NBA player, which is far from the case).

[Horse]

Duncan actually had the most rebounds by any player against the Clippers this season (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pgl_finder.cgi?request=1&player=&match=game&year_min=2012&year_max=2012&age_min=0&age_max=99&team_id=&opp_id=LAC&is_playoffs=&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&game_month=&game_location=&game_result=&is_starter=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&c1stat=trb&c1comp=gt&c1val=12&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=trb) with 17. Next ones: Bynum with 16, Howard and Love with 14.

List of games with 17+ rebounds from 35+ year old player (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pgl_finder.cgi?request=1&player=&match=game&year_min=&year_max=2012&age_min=35&age_max=99&team_id=&opp_id=&is_playoffs=&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&game_month=&game_location=&game_result=&is_starter=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&c1stat=trb&c1comp=gt&c1val=17&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=trb)

That's 228 games (including last night's) only since the 85-86 season, and Dennis Rodman is the main culprit here. And yeah, Duncan is "only" 35.

BTW Marcus Camby is having amazing rebounding numbers this year for a 37y old with Portland. He already has 3 games with 20+ rebounds.
Did I mention FUCK marcus camby!

[K-State Spur]

He missed some easy shots, they brought some help and I also think he was tired. My real guess is that with Tim's smarts, the officiating crew & how things look, he was nervous about Paul's ability to flop and get a call.

This.

If Tim is already in scoring position with Paul guarding him, then it's a concern that he doesn't go up and try to score over him. But, if Tim tries to back Paul down to get to a spot where he's more comfortable, CP's going to try to take a bump in the chest and hit the deck to draw a whistle.

Manu's got nothing on Paul when it comes to flopping.

[Bill_Brasky]

Tim has struggled with the post up, but he's still a very smart player when he's mismatched. Just a few games ago(can't remember which one) he had a guard on him down low, and went right at him. The guard flopped and didn't get the call, so Tim got an and-1.

[FromWayDowntown]

I actually thought the play on the Neal shot was classic Tim Duncan. Even with Paul on him, he knows that help is coming as soon as he puts the ball down. Even in 2003, in that situation, Tim Duncan probably would have waited for the help to come as well and would have patiently found a teammate after the help arrived for an uncontested shot.

It's all contextual of course, but anyone who's watched this for very long has to know that with a small guard switched onto him, there's going to be a big coming as a help defender on the first move and that big (with the Neal shot, it was going to be Blake -- and was) will be in a pretty good position to contest a shot without fouling. Understanding that, it was a much, much, much better play for Tim to wait out the pressure and then find the open man than it would have been for him to try to bully Paul with Griffin playing free safety.

[GSH]

I actually thought the play on the Neal shot was classic Tim Duncan. Even with Paul on him, he knows that help is coming as soon as he puts the ball down. Even in 2003, in that situation, Tim Duncan probably would have waited for the help to come as well and would have patiently found a teammate after the help arrived for an uncontested shot.

It's all contextual of course, but anyone who's watched this for very long has to know that with a small guard switched onto him, there's going to be a big coming as a help defender on the first move and that big (with the Neal shot, it was going to be Blake -- and was) will be in a pretty good position to contest a shot without fouling. Understanding that, it was a much, much, much better play for Tim to wait out the pressure and then find the open man than it would have been for him to try to bully Paul with Griffin playing free safety.


Some good responses, including this one. Thanks. It's always nice to be able to talk basketball without the insults and and bizarre comments.

One thing is for certain - Tim would have had to make his move immediately. the help was nearby, and it did come. I was surprised he didn't make the instant move(s) but, I guess it's a lot easier to second guess from the comfort of my couch. I guess I'm still not convinced, but I see your side enough that I wouldn't argue over it.

BTW - when you talk about hero moments in that win, don't forget Tim's block on Griffin with 42 seconds in OT. (For those that didn't notice, that was one hell of a strong move by Duncan.) Yeah he got called for the foul, but he made Griffin earn it from the line, and he missed one of the two FT's. How different do you think the ending would have gone if it was a 2-point margin instead of 3?

[angelbelow]

I think Timmy was gassed.. think he ended up playing like 40+ minutes. Remember how he looked against Diop game 7 in 2006? And he was still arguably in his prime then too. DJ's length definitely bothered him too, but Jordan was benched for all of the 4th and most of OT per usual. That guy's b-ball IQ has always been suspect (but hes come along way since his rookie season.)

Speaking of hero moments: Bonner's 3 in OT was :downspin: Normally I have 100% confidence that he'll miss that but for some reason everything just felt good. I remember telling my friends "I'm feeling Gary Neal" only to watch him botch the inbound pass seconds later. Since I'm from LA I was trashed pretty hard for the next few minutes lol. Luckily for me Gary Neal was indeed the hero of the game.

[howbouthemspurs]

I think timmy is doing fine .... He had a great game!