2011-2012: Most Dependable Spurs Player (wings & backcourt)

[jag]

By "dependable" I mean:

-Reliable
-Hardy (capable of enduring fatigue, hardship, exposure, etc,; sturdy)
-Able-bodied and physically fit while exhibiting resistance to injuries during this fast-paced and tumultuous schedule.
-Consistent


**I just included some of the wing players and backcourt players in this thread because I feel the frontcourt players have different expectations and require a thread of their own. **


Let's talk about it...

[timvp]

ElNono to vote for Manu in 3 ... 2 ...

[ElNono]

No, I voted for RJ... can't think the last time he missed a game due to injury... :bang

[ElNono]

Tony is definitely there... all the kids too, but it's somewhat expected since they're kids...

Neal also I think didn't miss much of any games.

Manu is certainly last in the list, no doubt about it.

[ElNono]

List is also missing Anderson, but he's another guy that bottoms out.

[jag]

No, I voted for RJ... can't think the last time he missed a game due to injury... :bang

You feel he meets this criteria as well?:


By "dependable" I mean:

-Reliable
-Consistent

[ffadicted]

Obvious answer is obvious

[ElNono]

You feel he meets this criteria as well?:

I thought this was about fitness and injury-related.

If you're looking for consistency in general, including production, this season is probably Tony, no question about it.

[timvp]

Tbh, I think ElNono is on to something. RJ fits the criteria. He's dependably bad. He is reliable in that he only shoots threes and does nothing else. He never gets hurt. I don't think I've ever seen him even wince in pain this season.

Game in, game out you know what you are going to get out of RJ more than any player on the team.

:smchode:

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Tbh, I think ElNono is on to something. RJ fits the criteria. He's dependably bad. He is reliable in that he only shoots threes and does nothing else. He never gets hurt. I don't think I've ever seen him even wince in pain this season.

Game in, game out you know what you are going to get out of RJ more than any player on the team.

:smchode:

The first part explains the second.

[jag]

I thought this was about fitness and injury-related.

If you're looking for consistency in general, including production, this season is probably Tony, no question about it.


By "dependable" I mean:

-Reliable
-Hardy (capable of enduring fatigue, hardship, exposure, etc,; sturdy)
-Able-bodied and physically fit while exhibiting resistance to injuries during this fast-paced and tumultuous schedule.
-Consistent


I completely understand the confusion. I tried to cover everything with regard to "Dependability". I really only included one line about injury. The other line (Hardiness) was more about ability to fight fatigue.

[jag]

Tbh, I think ElNono is on to something. RJ fits the criteria. He's dependably bad. He is reliable in that he only shoots threes and does nothing else. He never gets hurt. I don't think I've ever seen him even wince in pain this season.

Game in, game out you know what you are going to get out of RJ more than any player on the team.

:smchode:

He's not very consistent though. Some games he'll do a little rebounding and hustle back on D, other days he does his invisible thing.

[SA210]

I have faith that Manu always brings his heart.

[hater]

in past years the true Ironman was Bowen. I see and hope Kawhi taking this role. Thus why I voted for him

[ElNono]

Tbh, I think ElNono is on to something. RJ fits the criteria. He's dependably bad. He is reliable in that he only shoots threes and does nothing else. He never gets hurt. I don't think I've ever seen him even wince in pain this season.

Game in, game out you know what you are going to get out of RJ more than any player on the team.

:smchode:

Exactly. You know you're getting half-assed effort night in and night out. It's been a recurring theme since he's been in here.

Tony can have up and down nights, but RJ is just consistently mediocre.

[GSH]

I completely understand the confusion. I tried to cover everything with regard to "Dependability". I really only included one line about injury. The other line (Hardiness) was more about ability to fight fatigue.

Damn. Just tell everyone who to vote for and be done with it.

[xellos88330]

Parker and it's not even close at this juncture.

[Kewni Leonard]

Parker for this season, surprisingly.

[Mr Fundamental]

Danny Green.

[jag]

Looking at the votes, it appears Spurstalk thinks Tony Parker has been our most dependable (backcourt or wing) player this season. The more I think about it, I can't help but feel that we have all made the correct choice.

I guess we've become so accustomed to Tony being our most consistent contributor to winning basketball that we forget how truly great he really is and how blessed we are as a fan base to have such an amazing, healthy, selfless, winner and current All-Star (our only representative).

There's no reason to expect anything other than Tony continuing to be our solid rock for many years to come. Let's all (myself included) make a conscious effort to no longer allow ourselves to take for granted the incredible player, and person, we have the privilege of calling our PG.

:toast

[TDMVPDPOY]

Danny Green.

this

once he gets efficient with his shooting and finishin at the rim...he be a good 2 way player

[Brazil]

Looking at the votes, it appears Spurstalk thinks Tony Parker has been our most dependable (backcourt or wing) player this season. The more I think about it, I can't help but feel that we have all made the correct choice.

I guess we've become so accustomed to Tony being our most consistent contributor to winning basketball that we forget how truly great he really is and how blessed we are as a fan base to have such an amazing, healthy, selfless, winner and current All-Star (our only representative).

There's no reason to expect anything other than Tony continuing to be our solid rock for many years to come. Let's all (myself included) make a conscious effort to no longer allow ourselves to take for granted the incredible player, and person, we have the privilege of calling our PG.

:toast

:lol The CoP approves this message

[Kewni Leonard]

Looking at the votes, it appears Spurstalk thinks Tony Parker has been our most dependable (backcourt or wing) player this season. The more I think about it, I can't help but feel that we have all made the correct choice.

I guess we've become so accustomed to Tony being our most consistent contributor to winning basketball that we forget how truly great he really is and how blessed we are as a fan base to have such an amazing, healthy, selfless, winner and current All-Star (our only representative).

There's no reason to expect anything other than Tony continuing to be our solid rock for many years to come. Let's all (myself included) make a conscious effort to no longer allow ourselves to take for granted the incredible player, and person, we have the privilege of calling our PG.

:toast

Actually, now would be the time to trade him, because he's being overrated by the entire league, presently. He's putting up strong numbers offensively, but those will only go down sharply in the seasons to come, and he's still as bad at defense as he ever was.

[timvp]

Actually, now would be the time to trade him, because he's being overrated by the entire league, presently. He's putting up strong numbers offensively, but those will only go down sharply in the seasons to come, and he's still as bad at defense as he ever was.

The Spurs give up more points when Parker is on the bench than any other player on the team.

Then again, I guess "he's still as bad at defense as he ever was" could technically be correct because Spurs fans have always underrated his defense.

[jag]

Actually, now would be the time to trade him, because he's being overrated by the entire league, presently. He's putting up strong numbers offensively, but those will only go down sharply in the seasons to come, and he's still as bad at defense as he ever was.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but this thread is not about trade ideas. I would like to respectfully direct to The Think Tank (http://spurstalk.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=37) where such posts are acceptable.

This thread is, however, about the most dependable (backcourt or wing) player for the Spurs this season. And yes, I do agree Tony is putting up strong numbers offensively.

[mathbzh]

I guess we've become so accustomed to Tony being our most consistent contributor to winning basketball that we forget how truly great he really is and how blessed we are as a fan base to have such an amazing, healthy, selfless, winner and current All-Star (our only representative).


I think people don't realise how good Parker is at what he does.
15 pts / 5 ast / 50 FG% does not sound impressive. Because so many player achieve one of these... but when you look at who in the NBA history has more 15/5/50 season than Parker you understand how consistent he is.

Parker has 4 of these seasons (same as Wilt, Stockton, Westphal). The other players on the list are:
Bird (5)
Nash (5)
Jordan (6)
Magic (9)
In the other active players, Lebron has 3, Garnett 2, Paul & Deron 1.

I am not implying Parker is has good has the Superstars on that list. He is not as skilled and/or dominant as these guys. But it illustrates that we should not overlook what Parker did during all these years.

[Kewni Leonard]

The Spurs give up more points when Parker is on the bench than any other player on the team.

Source?

Also, that probably wouldn't have anything to do with Gary Neal being the backup point guard.


Then again, I guess "he's still as bad at defense as he ever was" could technically be correct because Spurs fans have always underrated his defense.

Parker isn't bad at defense? LMFAO. OK, what would you rate the guy that repeatedly gets torched by the likes of Luke Ridnour? Elite, great, good, above average, average, below average?

[jag]

This should be good...

:corn:

[Kewni Leonard]

I think people don't realise how good Parker is at what he does.
15 pts / 5 ast / 50 FG% does not sound impressive. Because so many player achieve one of these... but when you look at who in the NBA history has more 15/5/50 season than Parker you understand how consistent he is.

Parker has 4 of these seasons (same as Wilt, Stockton, Westphal). The other players on the list are:
Bird (5)
Nash (5)
Jordan (6)
Magic (9)
In the other active players, Lebron has 3, Garnett 2, Paul & Deron 1.

I am not implying Parker is has good has the Superstars on that list. He is not as skilled and/or dominant as these guys. But it illustrates that we should not overlook what Parker did during all these years.

This is because Parker doesn't even attempt half the amount of 3's that other point guards do, thus also meaning he does not spread the floor like a point guard should and his 50%FG isn't really as impressive as it sounds. True shooting percentage is better to go by. You are right, though, he is good at what he does. He is a scoring point guard. He is good at scoring. The problem is that he doesn't spread the floor to the 3(which is nuts for a PG), he doesn't have good court vision, and more importantly, he can't defend.

[hater]

he does not spread the floor like a point guard should

:lmao

[Kewni Leonard]

:lmao

:lmao

[jestersmash]

2 people actually had the audacity to vote for Manu over Tony?

:lmao

[hater]

2 people actually had the audacity to vote for Manu over Tony?

:lmao

must not be familiar with Church Of Manu lemmings

[romain.star]

This is because Parker doesn't even attempt half the amount of 3's that other point guards do, thus also meaning he does not spread the floor like a point guard should and his 50%FG isn't really as impressive as it sounds. True shooting percentage is better to go by. You are right, though, he is good at what he does. He is a scoring point guard. He is good at scoring. The problem is that he doesn't spread the floor to the 3(which is nuts for a PG), he doesn't have good court vision, and more importantly, he can't defend.

You're not totally wrong but I like what Parker brings to this team, especially this year

[Kewni Leonard]

You're not totally wrong but I like what Parker brings to this team, especially this year

He is playing well, because the regular season is not like the playoffs. The regular season is more open and he can get to the paint more freely. His not being able to shoot the 3 will really be exposed during the playoffs, as will his inability to defend. We've already seen he can't be 'the man' on the team from last year's playoffs. He got outplayed by a guy who has never sniffed an all-star team, and it was critical for him to win that matchup resoundingly. As I said, now is the time to trade him, because he's being overrated by everyone right now.

[jag]

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 15 (7 members and 8 guests)
_JaG, Brazil, hemann82, ElNono, Milo, timvp, mathbzh


:corn:

[Brazil]

:lol didn't Kewni was also part of the club

[jag]

:lol didn't Kewni was also part of the club

He's not really part of any clubs, I don't think. He's just legitimately retarded.

[ElNono]

Tony does struggle with certain matchups. To name a few, Andre Miller has taken him to school repeatedly over the years. He had problems guarding crafty guys like CP3 or Nash (coincidentally, if you look at the last game, Danny Green was guarding CP3 while Tony was parked on Foye).

He has also gone through some half-assing stretches (What ails Tony Parker comes to mind).

All that said, he normally ends up outscoring the opposition, so it normally isn't that big of a deal.

[TDMVPDPOY]

He has also gone through some half-assing stretches (What ails Tony Parker comes to mind).

All that said, he normally ends up outscoring the opposition, so it normally isn't that big of a deal.

whats the point of gettin yours, if the opposing pg is gettin his...

[jag]

All that said, he normally ends up outscoring the opposition, so it normally isn't that big of a deal.

...or creating easy buckets for other players on the team with his incredibly unselfish play.

He's 7th in the NBA in assists this season.

More importantly, he's 4th in the NBA in AST/TO ratio.

He probably wouldn't look to score so much if he weren't forced to. He'd pass the ball to Manu but then the Spurs would be wistled for a turnover.

[Kewni Leonard]

People are touching on this, but it needs to be said more clearly. Yes, Parker can score. We all know that, but if he's scoring 20 and the opposing PG, who may not even be a great player, is also scoring 20... what value is he really bringing to this team? Is that really a person of great value to have?

It always kills me when people will say "Yeah, man, Bonner scored 15 points tonight off the bench, but how many did the guy he was guarding score??" well, that is really funny to me, because this is way more true of Parker than it is Bonner. And hell, even if Bonner isn't scoring, he's spreading the floor at the 4 position, which is invaluable. If Parker isn't scoring, he's basically useless. Bonner is also only a roleplayer, we could be trading Parker for a really solid big man.

[ElNono]

He probably wouldn't look to score so much if he weren't forced to. He'd pass the ball to Manu but then the Spurs would be wistled for a turnover.

Apparently it isn't just me that thinks putting the ball in Manu's hands with the game on the line is a better idea than putting it in Tony's hands. :rolleyes

Frankly, Manu was bailing Tony's apathetic play when the season started.

Tony is balling right now, and he should get all the credit. No doubt about it.

[hater]

even if Bonner isn't scoring, he's spreading the floor at the 4 position, which is invaluable.

:lmao

[hater]

manu fans living in the past. TP is 10x the player manu is today. :stirpot:

[jag]

Apparently it isn't just me that thinks putting the ball in Manu's hands with the game on the line is a better idea than putting it in Tony's hands. :rolleyes





When did this thread become a discussion about who gets the ball with the game on the line?

[jag]

He's 7th in the NBA in assists this season.

More importantly, he's 4th in the NBA in AST/TO ratio.




Tony is balling right now, and he should get all the credit. No doubt about it.

I agree 100%.

[ElNono]

When did this thread become a discussion about who gets the ball with the game on the line?


He'd pass the ball to Manu but then the Spurs would be wistled for a turnover.

[ElNono]

Frankly, none of the big 3 are as "consistent" or "resilient" as advertised. They all go through up and downs, be it because of age, wear and tear, matchups, etc.

Duncan was probably the closest thing until he started slipping a couple seasons ago.

That's why we're going to need all 3 performing well and a supporting cast playing well too if we're to get anywhere.

[mathbzh]

This is because Parker doesn't even attempt half the amount of 3's that other point guards do, thus also meaning he does not spread the floor like a point guard should and his 50%FG isn't really as impressive as it sounds. True shooting percentage is better to go by. You are right, though, he is good at what he does. He is a scoring point guard. He is good at scoring. The problem is that he doesn't spread the floor to the 3(which is nuts for a PG), he doesn't have good court vision, and more importantly, he can't defend.

Your argument would has some validity. But hundreds of PG can't (or should not) shoot 3s. Yet, none of them can break 50 FG%.
My point is not that Parker is an All-Time great. Just that he is great at what he does.

Now, obvious trolling is obvious... so I will not discuss Parker career with you.
3 rings, 4 time All Star and finals MVP speak for him.

[jag]

My comment about him passing the ball to Manu and getting whistled for a turnover had nothing to do with Manu's turnovers. I was actually just pointing out that if Tony decided to pass the ball to Manu he would be whistled for a turnover because Manu will be sitting behind the bench in a suit. I apologize for any confusion.


Frankly, none of the big 3 are as "consistent" or "resilient" as advertised. They all go through up and downs, be it because of age, wear and tear, matchups, etc.

Duncan was probably the closest thing until he started slipping a couple seasons ago.

Yes, but as of right now I think it's apparent Tony Parker is the most consistent and resilient.

I would just like us all to take a moment out of our day to recognize him for his brilliance, selflessness, fortitude, leadership and toughness throughout this season. He's played at an incredibly high level and has been (according to the voters) our most dependable player.

Thanks Tony! And congratulations on yet another All-Star selection.

[Brazil]

People are touching on this, but it needs to be said more clearly. Yes, Parker can score. We all know that, but if he's scoring 20 and the opposing PG, who may not even be a great player, is also scoring 20... what value is he really bringing to this team? Is that really a person of great value to have?

It always kills me when people will say "Yeah, man, Bonner scored 15 points tonight off the bench, but how many did the guy he was guarding score??" well, that is really funny to me, because this is way more true of Parker than it is Bonner. And hell, even if Bonner isn't scoring, he's spreading the floor at the 4 position, which is invaluable. If Parker isn't scoring, he's basically useless. Bonner is also only a roleplayer, we could be trading Parker for a really solid big man.

do you any source to demonstrate that opposing PGs are scoring more on TP than on the rest of the league ?

[DMC]

It's Tony and it's not even a contest. It's because his game is about the same every night. The dude is just a ball of talent, a master in the paint and now that he has his jumper going and has targets to pass to, he's in another dimension.

If Parker went down due to injury, we would be lucky to play .500 ball even against the weaker teams.

[jestersmash]

:lol Manu was actually so good for the first 5 games of the season, that his overall PER is still high enough to place him 6th in the league (Tony is rank 22)-

http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/9373/perfeb.jpg

:stirpot:

No but seriously, Manu's PER for the first 5 games was actually something like 35-37. His PER has plummeted by 10-12 points as a result of his poor showings in the (few) games that he was back, and it'll no doubt plummet more once he comes back if he's not able to put up the usual 18/5/5 in ~30 minutes with TS%>55

Lebron and Wade boast the top 2 PERs in the league. Hollinger playoff odds puts Miami at a scorching 45% chance to win a championship this year.

Chicago/OKC/San Antonio are all around 13-14%.

[ElNono]

My comment about him passing the ball to Manu and getting whistled for a turnover had nothing to do with Manu's turnovers. I was actually just pointing out that if Tony decided to pass the ball to Manu he would be whistled for a turnover because Manu will be sitting behind the bench in a suit. I apologize for any confusion.

No problem.


Yes, but as of right now I think it's apparent Tony Parker is the most consistent and resilient.

He has played this well before.


I would just like us all to take a moment out of our day to recognize him for his brilliance, selflessness, fortitude, leadership and toughness throughout this season. He's played at an incredibly high level and has been (according to the voters) our most dependable player.

Thanks Tony! And congratulations on yet another All-Star selection.

He has played well and his All-Star selection is certainly well deserved. Hope he keeps it up.

[DMC]

Apparently it isn't just me that thinks putting the ball in Manu's hands with the game on the line is a better idea than putting it in Tony's hands. :rolleyes

Frankly, Manu was bailing Tony's apathetic play when the season started.

Tony is balling right now, and he should get all the credit. No doubt about it.

That's because Manu is a better FT shooter and is taller and knows how to sell a foul.

It's not because Manu is a better player though on a grand scale he probably is.

[Kewni Leonard]

do you any source to demonstrate that opposing PGs are scoring more on TP than on the rest of the league ?

Well, I can give you a great example, actually.

OK, so... we all would agree that Nash is a bad defender, correct? Well, Nash's opposition at PG has a PER of about 4 points less than Parker's, which is a VERY big difference. Also, Nash does not have Tim Duncan guarding the rim for him.

[jag]

:lol Manu was actually so good for the first 5 games of the season, that his overall PER is still high enough to place him 6th in the league (Tony is rank 22)-

http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/9373/perfeb.jpg

:stirpot:

No but seriously, Manu's PER for the first 5 games was actually something like 35-37. His PER has plummeted by 10-12 points as a result of his poor showings in the (few) games that he was back, and it'll no doubt plummet more once he comes back if he's not able to put up the usual 18/5/5 in ~30 minutes with TS%>55

Lebron and Wade boast the top 2 PERs in the league. Hollinger playoff odds puts Miami at a scorching 45% chance to win a championship this year.

Chicago/OKC/San Antonio are all around 13-14%.


Manu is a great player. At his best, he's one of the best guards to ever play the game. But the things that have made Manu great have also worn his body down. The fact that he's still playing at age 34 is a testament to how tough he really is. It is, however, understandable that he is no longer as dependable as Tony. While I genuinely think Tony has been just as fearless as Manu, especially when attacking the paint, he's 5 years younger than Manu and has managed to stay relatively healthy throughout his career. I guess we can only hope he will still be as dependable 5 years from now.

[DMC]

Well, I can give you a great example, actually.

OK, so... we all would agree that Nash is a bad defender, correct? Well, Nash's opposition at PG has a PER of about 4 points less than Parker's, which is a VERY big difference. Also, Nash does not have Tim Duncan guarding the rim for him.

Who's the highest scoring PG in the game?

How many times has Nash faced him?

Why do you think Nash has a rep for poor defense?

[stéphane]

That's because Manu is a better FT shooter and is taller and knows how to sell a foul.

It's not because Manu is a better player though on a grand scale he probably is.

Manu is a better one on one driver than Tony is.
He's capable of doing what you won't expect (well he'll go left though :lol) and if trapped will get the foul as you mentionned. His FT pct speaks for itself.

[jestersmash]

Tony's done exceptionally well this season in "clutch time" -

http://www.82games.com/1112/CSORT11.HTM

38.5 points per 48 minutes of clutch time with a terrific FG% to boot. He's shooting 93% on free throws in the clutch as well. That's probably about as good as Manu has shot in the clutch in previous seasons (to the person who mentioned Manu as a better FT option).

Now, don't get me wrong, I actually agree with you. I think Manu has proven to be clutch (especially with free throws) over many more seasons, but this season Tony has done a pretty good job, and it's encouraging.

[sonic21]

not surprising. It's been tony's team for years. Hopefully manu will be healthy come PO time, he's our best role player.

[Kewni Leonard]

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:corn:

Still waiting for a response that's never going to come? Truth of it is that he's just as bad on defense as I made him out to be, and he's got nothing to refute it with.

His DEF rating is good for 31st in the NBA, among POINT GUARDS. If you want to go by +/- stats, then Matt Bonner is the best player on the team.

[cheguevara]

not surprising. It's been tony's regular season team for years. Hopefully manu will be healthy come po time so he can bail out tony again.

fify

[sonic21]

fify

hard to bail him out if he's injured unfortunately.

I miss 2005 Manu. :(

[timvp]

This should be good...

:corn:

Nah, sorry, I don't have the energy to fight this battle. If someone thinks Ginobili is a great defender and Parker is a horrible defender, they are too far gone to save. Such a person must only view good defense as getting steals or drawing charges. Either that or they are so hypnotized by CoM that it's pointless.

To any rational observer of the last ten years, it's pretty obvious that Parker and Ginobili are pretty much equal defensively. In one-on-one defense, Parker is better. In team defense, Ginobili is better.

If you need a defensive play to be made, Ginobili is the guy who is more likely to do so. If you need to defend a scorer, Parker is the better option. For example, look at the 2007 Nuggets series when Parker was put on AI and Ginobili was put on Steve Blake even though Blake was the point guard.

But it's not an argument worth fighting. Partly because TP's defensive intensity comes and goes during the regular season. However, when he's really locked in, Parker is definitely in the "good" category. Not quite All-NBA but only a notch or two below that. In the last two championship runs, he's been damn good defensively in each run.

This season? He started off slow but he's been giving a quality effort as of late. You know it's a good sign when someone who is bashing Parker's defense has to go back 25 games ago when Ridnour scored 17 points against the Spurs :lol

Off the top of my head, I can't think of a point guard who has had a really good game against him recently. But whatever, Parker sucks, Ginobili rules ... aren't going to change many minds at this point.

[Brazil]

Still waiting for a response that's never going to come? Truth of it is that he's just as bad on defense as I made him out to be, and he's got nothing to refute it with.

His DEF rating is good for 31st in the NBA, among POINT GUARDS. If you want to go by +/- stats, then Matt Bonner is the best player on the team.


The Spurs give up more points when Parker is on the bench than any other player on the team.

Then again, I guess "he's still as bad at defense as he ever was" could technically be correct because Spurs fans have always underrated his defense.

oh and I'm pretty sure timvp has the data you want to back it up... he is the guy doing two pages of graph and stat analysis every other day.


Speaking of what you feel when you look the game, my feeling has always been TP in RS is below average defender. I do think he is doing well the basics the spurs system is asking him to do but mostly I think he is coasting a little. Now in POs, TP has always played more than decent D.

Another point that sometimes we overlook is the fact he is a scoring PG put normally quite of a pressure on the opponent PG (see Nash). The other point is I think the spurs system asks him to run a lot.

[timvp]

Still waiting for a response that's never going to come? Truth of it is that he's just as bad on defense as I made him out to be, and he's got nothing to refute it with.

http://oi42.tinypic.com/znx077.jpg

With Parker off the court, the Spurs are their worst defensively. Like I said.

But whatever. You win. Parker sucks, Spurs should trade him, his defense is obviously a liability, blah, blah.

Congrats. :toast

[z0sa]

Without question, the OP's answer is Parker.

[Kewni Leonard]

Nah, sorry, I don't have the energy to fight this battle.

You started off promising, but then, unfortunately... you went down hill.


If someone thinks Ginobili is a great defender and Parker is a horrible defender, they are too far gone to save. Such a person must only view good defense as getting steals or drawing charges. Either that or they are so hypnotized by CoM that it's pointless.

To any rational observer of the last ten years, it's pretty obvious that Parker and Ginobili are pretty much equal defensively. In one-on-one defense, Parker is better. In team defense, Ginobili is better.

If you need a defensive play to be made, Ginobili is the guy who is more likely to do so. If you need to defend a scorer, Parker is the better option. For example, look at the 2007 Nuggets series when Parker was put on AI and Ginobili was put on Steve Blake even though Blake was the point guard.

But it's not an argument worth fighting. Partly because TP's defensive intensity comes and goes during the regular season. However, when he's really locked in, Parker is definitely in the "good" category. Not quite All-NBA but only a notch or two below that. In the last two championship runs, he's been damn good defensively in each run.

This season? He started off slow but he's been giving a quality effort as of late. You know it's a good sign when someone who is bashing Parker's defense has to go back 25 games ago when Ridnour scored 17 points against the Spurs :lol

Off the top of my head, I can't think of a point guard who has had a really good game against him recently. But whatever, Parker sucks, Ginobili rules ... aren't going to change many minds at this point.


I really hate to destroy the owner of the forum I'm posting on, but here goes:

Manu Ginobili:
http://i.imgur.com/RoT8y.jpg

Tony Parker:
http://i.imgur.com/ZbJy2.jpg

I don't even want to post the net production stats, they are pretty embarrassing for Parker.

On top of that, I wasn't even really talking about this season in regards Ridnour, but LOL @ him scoring 17 on him again this year. Probably his season high. And I don't have to go back far whatsoever to see someone torching Parker. Randy Foye just did it, inexplicably. Rodney Stuckey also just recently fucked him up good.

[Kewni Leonard]

http://oi42.tinypic.com/znx077.jpg

With Parker off the court, the Spurs are their worst defensively. Like I said.

But whatever. You win. Parker sucks, Spurs should trade him, his defense is obviously a liability, blah, blah.

Congrats. :toast

So, using this logic, you would have to agree that Matt Bonner is the best player on the San Antonio Spurs. Right?

[therealtruth]

Nah, sorry, I don't have the energy to fight this battle. If someone thinks Ginobili is a great defender and Parker is a horrible defender, they are too far gone to save. Such a person must only view good defense as getting steals or drawing charges. Either that or they are so hypnotized by CoM that it's pointless.

To any rational observer of the last ten years, it's pretty obvious that Parker and Ginobili are pretty much equal defensively. In one-on-one defense, Parker is better. In team defense, Ginobili is better.

If you need a defensive play to be made, Ginobili is the guy who is more likely to do so. If you need to defend a scorer, Parker is the better option. For example, look at the 2007 Nuggets series when Parker was put on AI and Ginobili was put on Steve Blake even though Blake was the point guard.

But it's not an argument worth fighting. Partly because TP's defensive intensity comes and goes during the regular season. However, when he's really locked in, Parker is definitely in the "good" category. Not quite All-NBA but only a notch or two below that. In the last two championship runs, he's been damn good defensively in each run.

This season? He started off slow but he's been giving a quality effort as of late. You know it's a good sign when someone who is bashing Parker's defense has to go back 25 games ago when Ridnour scored 17 points against the Spurs :lol

Off the top of my head, I can't think of a point guard who has had a really good game against him recently. But whatever, Parker sucks, Ginobili rules ... aren't going to change many minds at this point.

TP has always been good on defense when he uses his speed. Defense is really about staying in front of your man and TP has the most speed to be able to do that when he concentrates on it. Also he's pretty strong so he's not pushed around that easily.

[cheguevara]

I do agree it's a bit of flawed logic to claim our D is worse with Parker sitting down.Not a good argument.

But IMO Parker's D is not that bad, he's been playing pretty good all around game the last 20+ games. He's been top 5 PG in the league in that stretch.

It's pretty stupid to call him out on his D at this point.

[Kewni Leonard]

It's pretty stupid to call him out on his D at this point.

For me, playing well on the offensive end is never going to make me lose sight of the defensive end, and Parker is and always has been a liability on it.

[Brazil]

For me, playing well on the offensive end is never going to make me lose sight of the defensive end, and Parker is and always has been a liability on it.

:lol whatever works for you

[romain.star]

He is playing well, because the regular season is not like the playoffs. The regular season is more open and he can get to the paint more freely. His not being able to shoot the 3 will really be exposed during the playoffs, as will his inability to defend. We've already seen he can't be 'the man' on the team from last year's playoffs. He got outplayed by a guy who has never sniffed an all-star team, and it was critical for him to win that matchup resoundingly. As I said, now is the time to trade him, because he's being overrated by everyone right now.

Have you watched the Spurs in post season over the last decade? Parker has been our go to guy player many many times (and i'm talking about his Gibson Final MVP)

i'm not a Parker homer at all but this is BS

[timvp]

You started off promising, but then, unfortunately... you went down hill.



I really hate to destroy the owner of the forum I'm posting on, but here goes:

Manu Ginobili:
http://i.imgur.com/RoT8y.jpg

lol five game sample size

[mathbzh]

So, using this logic, you would have to agree that Matt Bonner is the best player on the San Antonio Spurs. Right?

Using your's Nash is a top 3 PG on defenses. Right?

[jjktkk]

He is playing well, because the regular season is not like the playoffs.

So your saying Parker is only a regular season performer? Judging by your takes in this thread, it seems you became a Spurs fan around Halloween I'm guessing. Parker is a proven playoff performer:

Tony Parker's career regular stats: PPG- 16.7, APG- 5.7

Tony Parker's career playoff stats: PPG- 18.8, APG- 4.9

TP also was won the 2007 Finals MVP.

[mercos]

Tony Parker is the clear answer. He is showing his true potential this year with Manu sidelined. This year has finally proven what I always suspected during the title years: we have three Hall of Fame players whose numbers are skewed because they share the ball so well. Manu showed what his numbers could have looked like with enough touches during the 2010 stretch run. He was arguably the most valuable player in the league during that late run. Tony Parker is showing what he is truly capable of now. His numbers are amazing and he has been clutch as well. I won't even waste time mentioning Duncan because everyone already knew how great he was.

[ElNono]

To any rational observer of the last ten years, it's pretty obvious that Parker and Ginobili are pretty much equal defensively. In one-on-one defense, Parker is better. In team defense, Ginobili is better.

I can agree with that, especially for Manu as he has aged and he doesn't produce steals as he used to. What Manu definitely has is great sense for when a defensive play is needed (much like an old Spur: Horry). His flopping skills are well documented and he has had some game-changing blocked shots in his career (or non-blocked shot that ended up in a famous foul :bang).

Tony just has a different skillset and it's just a different player. He does his job well most of the time. He struggles with certain matchups and so does Manu.

[stéphane]

You started off promising, but then, unfortunately... you went down hill.



I really hate to destroy the owner of the forum I'm posting on, but here goes:

Manu Ginobili:
http://i.imgur.com/RoT8y.jpg

Tony Parker:
http://i.imgur.com/ZbJy2.jpg



As far as I know, it's the PG era right now. Care to post the average PER for starting PGs and SGs and we can debate...

Edit : Just had a quick look -> 11 PG in the top 50 in PER, 2 SG

[jestersmash]

You started off promising, but then, unfortunately... you went down hill.



I really hate to destroy the owner of the forum I'm posting on, but here goes:

Manu Ginobili:
http://i.imgur.com/RoT8y.jpg

Tony Parker:
http://i.imgur.com/ZbJy2.jpg

I don't even want to post the net production stats, they are pretty embarrassing for Parker.

On top of that, I wasn't even really talking about this season in regards Ridnour, but LOL @ him scoring 17 on him again this year. Probably his season high. And I don't have to go back far whatsoever to see someone torching Parker. Randy Foye just did it, inexplicably. Rodney Stuckey also just recently fucked him up good.

Wait, that's from this season? Manu's played a whopping 9 games total, and the bulk of those stats are really derived from a 5 game sample size (the 5 games he played to start the season).

That's sort of why I posted overall PER ratings a post ago, to show just how skewed Ginobili's overall ratings are due to his brilliant 5 game performance to start the season (under no circumstance can you argue that Ginobili has been the 6th best player in the league overall so far).

[timvp]

^Plus those stats haven't been updated since the 15th, which cuts down the size even further.

[FkLA]

Wheres the option for Timmy at ?

[jestersmash]

As far as I know, it's the PG era right now. Care to post the average PER for starting PGs and SGs and we can debate...

And this is also a good point.

Imagine a 1 game sample size where Manu guards Keith Bogans while Tony has to guard Chris Paul.

Keith Bogans probably has a terrible PER to begin with. Maybe Keith Bogans typically has a PER of around 8.0 while Chris Paul has a PER of around 22.0.

If (from this one game sample size), Manu's "opponent PER" is 8.9, he's actually doing a bad job given that Bogans typically has PER of around 8.0, and Tony is doing a good job if he can contain a 22 PER player (Chris Paul) to around a 15.0 PER.

If Kewni Leonard wants to use PER, he needs to look at the deviation from average PER, not an aggregate of opponent PER all together. The latter fails to take into account the fact that the average SG Manu may be guarding may just flat out be worse than the average PG that Tony has to guard.

[Brazil]

Wheres the option for Timmy at ?

someone didn't see the (wings and backcourt)

[jestersmash]

Seriously though, Kewni Leonard just provided a terrific example of abusing advanced statistics to make a point.

There's a reason why PER isn't calculate for every player in the league. Imagine a scrub on team A who enters the game for a minute, gets a lob dunk, and then gets injured and has to leave. He's scored 2 points in that minute and is "on pace" to score 96 points per 48 minutes. If we calculated his PER based on his 1 minute outing alone, it would be off the charts (>50).

That's what you're kind of doing with Manu. I gave the extreme example of scoring 2 points in a single minute to illustrate the point, but Manu's case is not so far off. 5 games is a really low sample size.

[FkLA]

So your saying Parker is only a regular season performer? Judging by your takes in this thread, it seems you became a Spurs fan around Halloween I'm guessing. Parker is a proven playoff performer:

Tony Parker's career regular stats: PPG- 16.7, APG- 5.7

Tony Parker's career playoff stats: PPG- 18.8, APG- 4.9

TP also was won the 2007 Finals MVP.

He also has his history of poor play in the playoffs tbh. I think out of the Big 3 he has easily been the least dependable in the postseason. Speedy in 03', being completely neutralized in 04', Michael Conley, etc.

[timvp]

At times, I was wanting Ford out there to close games instead of Parker. Better defense and pass-first.

Not to pull a Kewni but . . .

http://oi44.tinypic.com/16t3s5.jpg

Oops.

[FkLA]

someone didn't see the (wings and backcourt)

whoops :lol

[Brazil]

whoops :lol

OP had an agenda obviously thus the limitation but Tim has been pretty consistent too so far... Of course he had some really bad games but overall I think he is much better than last year.

[jjktkk]

He also has his history of poor play in the playoffs tbh. I think out of the Big 3 he has easily been the least dependable in the postseason. Speedy in 03', being completely neutralized in 04', Michael Conley, etc.

True, but to think tp is a regular season performer only as some on here think, is laughable tbh.

[timvp]

He also has his history of poor play in the playoffs tbh.Don't agree with that wording. If you want to say he's played poorly at times on the playoffs, that's fine.


I think out of the Big 3 he has easily been the least dependable in the postseason. Speedy in 03', being completely neutralized in 04', Michael Conley, etc.

In '03 and '04, Parker owned a pair of Hall of Fame point guards so hardcore that the Nets and Lakers had to shift their entire defense to focus on Parker. To those team's credit, the changes worked. But holding that against a player who was as old as Cory Joseph is pretty unfair, if you ask me.

Parker deserves blame for whatever happened last season. I was one of the first in line to criticize him for that egg laying.

But Manu hasn't exactly been Mr. Dependable at all times. I mean, compare the overall numbers from the Nets series you brought up:

Parker vs. Nets in 2003
212 minutes
84 points
32-for-83 (38.6%) from the field
6-for-14 (42.9%) on three-pointers
25 assists
11 turnovers

Ginobili vs. Nets in 2003
172 minutes
52 points
19-for-46 (34.8%) from the field
3-for-14 (21.4%) on three-pointers
12 assists
10 turnovers

Despite those numbers, history somehow remembers Parker as a choker and Manu as a hero. No one remembers that Manu was 1-for-7 in that last game before that RJ steal and dunk.

Ginobili shot 28% against the Suns in the first round in 2003 but history remembers Parker's struggles with Marbury.

Nobody ever mentions that Ginobili has a shooting percentage of 35.8% on the road in the Finals, or that he was averaging 12.7 points on 32.7% shooting from the field and 26.3% on three-pointers through the first nine games of the 2007 playoffs. Or his defense on Peja Stojakovic in 2008 almost lost the series or that he turned Sasha Vujacic into Bill Russell in the next series.

Why does Ginobili have the rep of a playoff warrior and Parker have the rep of a liability? Well, first of all, I think Ginobili has earned his rep. He's one of the best big-game players in the history of basketball. If I'm putting together a team to win one game, Ginobili would be one of the first players I pick. I can't stress enough how much of a bad ass Ginobili is.

But Ginobili hasn't been immune to laying eggs. He was worse to start the 2007 playoffs than Parker was last season against Conley. Luckily, the Spurs had enough depth in 2007 to withstand Manu's slump. Last season, the Spurs were dead when Parker couldn't outplay Conley.

Duncan has been the foundation of the last three championships. Historically, the Spurs have needed two of the big three to play at a superstar level to get playoff wins. Out of Ginobili and Parker, I'd say they are about equal in being that second superstar player who has stepped up over the years.

Unfortunately, going forward the Spurs will probably need all three players to play at their best to win playoff series. There's much less room for error nowadays. Gone are the times the Spurs could absorb a Big 3 slump ... as the Memphis series made painfully clear.

[jestersmash]

timvp with the goods :tu

[jag]

Jestersmash has always brought the goods when it comes to advanced stats. Dude knows his stuff. And timvp, even when not in the mood, will do work on that ass.



OP had an agenda obviously thus the limitation but Tim has been pretty consistent too so far... Of course he had some really bad games but overall I think he is much better than last year.

I don't know what you're talking about.

[ElNono]

:blah:blah:blah

I can't stress enough how much of a bad ass Ginobili is.

:blah:blah:blah


/thread, IMO

[ElNono]

:lol

[timvp]

^ :lol

[jag]

/thread, IMO

:lol You're certainly dedicated; I'll give you that.

[Brazil]

/thread, IMO

Elnono cherry picking :lol

[therealtruth]

Don't agree with that wording. If you want to say he's played poorly at times on the playoffs, that's fine.



In '03 and '04, Parker owned a pair of Hall of Fame point guards so hardcore that the Nets and Lakers had to shift their entire defense to focus on Parker. To those team's credit, the changes worked. But holding that against a player who was as old as Cory Joseph is pretty unfair, if you ask me.

Parker deserves blame for whatever happened last season. I was one of the first in line to criticize him for that egg laying.

But Manu hasn't exactly been Mr. Dependable at all times. I mean, compare the overall numbers from the Nets series you brought up:

Parker vs. Nets in 2003
212 minutes
84 points
32-for-83 (38.6%) from the field
6-for-14 (42.9%) on three-pointers
25 assists
11 turnovers

Ginobili vs. Nets in 2003
172 minutes
52 points
19-for-46 (34.8%) from the field
3-for-14 (21.4%) on three-pointers
12 assists
10 turnovers

Despite those numbers, history somehow remembers Parker as a choker and Manu as a hero. No one remembers that Manu was 1-for-7 in that last game before that RJ steal and dunk.

Ginobili shot 28% against the Suns in the first round in 2003 but history remembers Parker's struggles with Marbury.

Nobody ever mentions that Ginobili has a shooting percentage of 35.8% on the road in the Finals, or that he was averaging 12.7 points on 32.7% shooting from the field and 26.3% on three-pointers through the first nine games of the 2007 playoffs. Or his defense on Peja Stojakovic in 2008 almost lost the series or that he turned Sasha Vujacic into Bill Russell in the next series.

Why does Ginobili have the rep of a playoff warrior and Parker have the rep of a liability? Well, first of all, I think Ginobili has earned his rep. He's one of the best big-game players in the history of basketball. If I'm putting together a team to win one game, Ginobili would be one of the first players I pick. I can't stress enough how much of a bad ass Ginobili is.

But Ginobili hasn't been immune to laying eggs. He was worse to start the 2007 playoffs than Parker was last season against Conley. Luckily, the Spurs had enough depth in 2007 to withstand Manu's slump. Last season, the Spurs were dead when Parker couldn't outplay Conley.

Duncan has been the foundation of the last three championships. Historically, the Spurs have needed two of the big three to play at a superstar level to get playoff wins. Out of Ginobili and Parker, I'd say they are about equal in being that second superstar player who has stepped up over the years.

Unfortunately, going forward the Spurs will probably need all three players to play at their best to win playoff series. There's much less room for error nowadays. Gone are the times the Spurs could absorb a Big 3 slump ... as the Memphis series made painfully clear.

Ginobili had an excuse in '08, being injured. The Nets in '03 were able to counter Parker by switching Kittles on him who was almost as quick and longer. In '04 Phil Jackson was able to have the team sag into the paint and force the Spurs to hit outside shots which they couldn't do. He was also able to defend Duncan without doubling because of Malone's defense.

But basically not everybody is going to perform the same in every series. Duncan is probably the only Spurs with the most consistent numbers for every series. Gino is more memorable because he tended to play better when the Spurs needed him the most. While Parker's playoff disappoints are more memorable because of the expectations ('11) or his prior play in the series ('03,'04).

[Kewni Leonard]

Not to pull a Kewni but . . .

http://oi44.tinypic.com/16t3s5.jpg

Oops.

I will give you that one. I am very flattered you went into my post history, desperately trying to find something that I may have been wrong about. Alas, you won't see me sitting here trying to win a hopeless argument and say things like "sample size" and what have you, like you and your nut-huggers do. Obviously, I know Parker is a better player than Ford, but like I said "AT TIMES" he has played very well on both ends -- and Parker, at that time, was in the middle of a terrible stretch of games. "What ails Tony Parker?" comes to mind, tbh.

[FkLA]

Don't agree with that wording. If you want to say he's played poorly at times on the playoffs, that's fine.

Hes played poorly at times in the playoffs more than Manu and Tim tbh.


In '03 and '04, Parker owned a pair of Hall of Fame point guards so hardcore that the Nets and Lakers had to shift their entire defense to focus on Parker. To those team's credit, the changes worked. But holding that against a player who was as old as Cory Joseph is pretty unfair, if you ask me.

He did dominate at times, but like you said he was completely neutralized once adjustments were made. Which is why I feel he has been the least consistent of the Big 3. He can dominate for the first two games of a series and then disappear the next four. And its kinda hard for me to let go of that despite his age at the time because he still has the tendency to disappear at times when teams clog the lane.


Parker deserves blame for whatever happened last season. I was one of the first in line to criticize him for that egg laying.

:tu


But Manu hasn't exactly been Mr. Dependable at all times. I mean, compare the overall numbers from the Nets series you brought up:

Parker vs. Nets in 2003
212 minutes
84 points
32-for-83 (38.6%) from the field
6-for-14 (42.9%) on three-pointers
25 assists
11 turnovers

Ginobili vs. Nets in 2003
172 minutes
52 points
19-for-46 (34.8%) from the field
3-for-14 (21.4%) on three-pointers
12 assists
10 turnovers

Despite those numbers, history somehow remembers Parker as a choker and Manu as a hero. No one remembers that Manu was 1-for-7 in that last game before that RJ steal and dunk.

Ginobili shot 28% against the Suns in the first round in 2003 but history remembers Parker's struggles with Marbury.

Manu was a role player in 2003, he was an old rookie but his game was still very green and erratic. He also had those ankle problems to begin the season. Parker played a much bigger role on that title team (even though he was only a sophomore himself) so I dont really see how its fair to compare them at that stage of their careers since Parker was clearly more established tbh.


Nobody ever mentions that Ginobili has a shooting percentage of 35.8% on the road in the Finals, or that he was averaging 12.7 points on 32.7% shooting from the field and 26.3% on three-pointers through the first nine games of the 2007 playoffs. Or his defense on Peja Stojakovic in 2008 almost lost the series or that he turned Sasha Vujacic into Bill Russell in the next series.

Manu has never been as dependent on scoring as Parker has been. I know its cliche and shit but Manus shown the ability to dominate games without putting up great scoring numbers, everything that nigga does on either side of the ball is a winning move. Not trying to say those shooting numbers arent bad, just that hes shown a better ability to make up for them in other areas than Parker has.


Why does Ginobili have the rep of a playoff warrior and Parker have the rep of a liability? Well, first of all, I think Ginobili has earned his rep. He's one of the best big-game players in the history of basketball. If I'm putting together a team to win one game, Ginobili would be one of the first players I pick. I can't stress enough how much of a bad ass Ginobili is.

But Ginobili hasn't been immune to laying eggs. He was worse to start the 2007 playoffs than Parker was last season against Conley. Luckily, the Spurs had enough depth in 2007 to withstand Manu's slump. Last season, the Spurs were dead when Parker couldn't outplay Conley.

I dont think Parker has been anywhere close to a liability in the playoffs, obviously he played a huge role in the 3 titles won this past decade. I simply feel like out of our big guns hes the least consisten. When his scoring is contained, his impact on the game takes a huge dip. Manu and especially Duncan are more versatile in that respect.


Duncan has been the foundation of the last three championships. Historically, the Spurs have needed two of the big three to play at a superstar level to get playoff wins. Out of Ginobili and Parker, I'd say they are about equal in being that second superstar player who has stepped up over the years.

Unfortunately, going forward the Spurs will probably need all three players to play at their best to win playoff series. There's much less room for error nowadays. Gone are the times the Spurs could absorb a Big 3 slump ... as the Memphis series made painfully clear.

Would give the slight edge to Ginobili tbh. Agree with the rest though although I do think the Big 3 have alot more room for error offensively than in years past.

[therealtruth]

Manu has never been as dependent on scoring as Parker has been. I know its cliche and shit but Manus shown the ability to dominate games without putting up great scoring numbers, everything that nigga does on either side of the ball is a winning move. Not trying to say those shooting numbers arent bad, just that hes shown a better ability to make up for them in other areas than Parker has.


I dont think Parker has been anywhere close to a liability in the playoffs, obviously he played a huge role in the 3 titles won this past decade. I simply feel like out of our big guns hes the least consisten. When his scoring is contained, his impact on the game takes a huge dip. Manu and especially Duncan are more versatile in that respect.


Agree. Both Manu and Duncan are capable of contributing in areas outside of scoring. When Parker's not scoring and assisting he's pretty much ineffective.

[FkLA]

Agree. Both Manu and Duncan are capable of contributing in areas outside of scoring. When Parker's not scoring and assisting he's pretty much ineffective.

I think it has to do with the fact that his assists and scoring kinda go hand in hand tbh. If teams clog the paint and his jumpshot isnt falling his penetration is neutralized, and most of his assists are kickouts after he penetrates. He cant really methodically break down/read defenses like some of the better passing PGs, and his court vision is also subpar for a PG.