The Cory Joseph Pick 8 Months Later [Archive]

View Full Version : The Cory Joseph Pick 8 Months Later

The ADMIRAL 50

02-23-2012, 03:37 PM

Today is the 8 Month Anniversary of the 2011 NBA Draft, and in the San Antonio sports world one thing is certain: Kawhi Leonard can play. Despite an obviously undeveloped NBA offensive game, the 20 year old rookie has been averaging 7 points and 5 boards in 24 minutes a night while shooting 46% from the field, 35% from three, swiping 1.3 steals a game, and doing an excellent job keeping his turnovers (0.7 per) and fouls (1.3) to a minimum. Leonard has played all 33 games this year, starting 16 of them, and shown the length and flashes of lockdown defense Spurs Nation has been clamoring for, while also displaying plus ballhandling abilities and the maturity to play within himself and within the team game. Taken with the 15th overall pick in a weak draft, its already easy to claim that Kawhi was unquestionably, at the least, "a good pick."

He wasn't our only first round choice, though. With the 29th pick in last years weak draft, the Spurs selected another 20 year old; UT freshman PG Cory Joseph. I go to UT (well at this point I am taking one of two final classes needed while working full time as a preschool teacher, but last year I was a full time student at UT), and had the opportunity to watch a lot of Longhorn basketball when Cory was on the squad, and when he declared for the draft I unequivocally believed he was making the wrong decision (to a lesser degree I felt the same about Tristan Thompson, though when he went #4 overall I was pleasantly surprised to have his decision steadfastly validated). Cory was solid and unselfish at Texas, but wasn't really spectacular at anything in particular. His development was no doubt hindered by the fact that we were a guard heavy team, and, more often than not, he was forced to share the court with at least one other PG, be it then sophmore J'Covan Brown, or then senior Dougus Balbay, both very good college players who also deserved the PT. Often, the three would even all be on the court together. Naturally, this led the natural PG Joseph to play a lot of minutes either off the ball, sharing the PG responsibilities, or simply playing a combo guard position. Ultimately, Joseph played a lot of minutes in his one college season (32 MPG while starting every game), putting up decent numbers; 10.4 ppg, 3.0 assists, 3.6 rebounds. His high point outing was 21, against UNC no less in a game in which he also hit the game winning jumper, but overall led Texas in scoring only 4 out of 36 games. He could hit the college three (41%) but overall his shooting numbers didn't really impress (42%). When it was all said and done, Joseph was a solid college starter as a freshman, who was rarely, if ever, a true force in a game, but just as rarely a liability or a problem. TIMVP has stated that a Spurs scout told him the FO was enamored mostly with his leadership abilities and mental make-up: this is definitely the area of his game that stood out most. Joseph was always an above average floor general from Day 1, and never seemed comfortable outside of the role of a true PG, always preferring to set up plays and run the offense rather than look for his. That said, he had a lot of work to do in order to become the sort of player that stood out to an NBA franchise, and with a year or two or three more almost certainly would have become a very, very good all around college player. This seasoning was not in the cards though, and with fellow Canadian PG and highly recruited freshman Myck Kabongo coming in, CJ bolted for the big leagues.

When the Spurs picked Joseph at number 29, two things were clear: our PG depth had just taken a hit with George Hill's departure in the trade for the 15th pick (I'll even point out that Chris Quinn went to Russia, why not?), and, secondly, that Joseph was a project, a player drafted on potential, not on his ability to step in right away and produce (evidence of which can possibly be found in SA picking him over available junior PG Shelvin Mack of Butler, who had the experience of two straight NCAA tourney runs to the National Championship game and ended up going 34th). Both these reasons were futher reinforced when the Spurs wisely signed veteran and fellow Longhorn TJ Ford as the primary back up PG. Ford was really starting to play great for the Spurs (back to back games off the bench with 7 and 8 assists IIRC) before tearing his hammy and swapping his silver and black duds for a suit. This development forced CJ into a much larger role, up from, basically, no role at all after having just been sent to the Toros a week earlier. Clearly, it seems, the rookie wasn't ready to be the 2nd of two true point guards on an NBA team, and while, to my eyes, he hasn't been entirely awful, he certainly hasn't given Spurs Nation much reason to rejoice, either. The defense, of course, is that Cory was never meant to be in this role this early, and that, with time, he still could develop into a solid back up PG.

---

With so many on this board trashing Cory Joseph, and so many trashing him with the same tired knocks over and over again, one question has emerged: Was Joseph a bad pick for the Spurs? And, if so: Who would you have taken at #29?

A couple things must be kept in mind: With the TJ Ford signing, it is clear that the FO never intended on this season being much more than a developmental one for Joseph. Secondly, the kid is the same age as your average year-and-a-half removed from high school college sophomore, and, logically, should have a ton more room to grow and improve.

---

So far this season, only a few players taken after Joseph have undeniably had better rookie outings than he has. Here they are, in the general order of how they have performed this season (if I have left any out, please add):

CHANDLER PARSONS SF
#38 pick Houston Rockets
Sr. Florida

Kudos to Chandler Parsons, your typical 4 year college player 2nd round pick who really isn't going to stick anywhere, except that he has, and has in a big way for Houston. Chandler has come out of nowhere to steal the starting SF spot (27 starts in 33 games) in H-Town while averaging 25.9 mpg, 7.7 ppg, and 4.8 rpg. Can't really fault the Spurs here: they had already used the 15th on a SF, Leonard, and were clearly courting a veteran to fill in for an amnestied RJ, before being forced to settle on keeping the eternal disappointment.

ISAIAH THOMAS PG
#60 pick Sacramento Kings
Jr. Washington
Ok, maybe we should've taken this guy. With the second to last pick of the 2011 NBA draft the Spurs took Euro stash prospect Adam Hanga, who, personally, I kinda like. With the absolute last pick the Kings took Thomas. The Kings suck, but Thomas has been pretty decent. Recently installed as the starting point guard, the 5'9'' Thomas has impressed in the four games since the switch, averaging 19.5 points, 6.5 assists, 4.25 boards in 34.5 minutes on 51% shooting and 45% from three.

JON LEUER PF
#40 pick Milwaukee Bucks
Sr. Wisconsin

SHELVIN MACK PG
#34 pick Washington Wizards
Jr. Butler

JIMMY BUTLER SF
#30 pick Chicago Bulls
Sr. Marquette

JOSH HARRELLSON C
#45 pick now with NY Knicks
Sr. Kentucky

Gotta get back to work: nap time is over and the little devils are awake. I will try to flesh this out later and check for typos, until then: your thoughts?

elemento

02-23-2012, 04:27 PM

Too early to tell

EricD

02-23-2012, 04:28 PM

Any smart fan would realize it's too early to tell.

dylankerouac

02-23-2012, 04:30 PM

At the same time, someone can still be unimpressed with what they have already seen.

DesignatedT

02-23-2012, 04:31 PM

too many options.

should have went with 1. you like the pick 2. you dont like the pick.

EricD

02-23-2012, 04:32 PM

At the same time, someone can still be unimpressed with what they have already seen.

The kid wasn't picked to help now. He's barely 20 years old and the end result is still very far away.

Give this kid some time. He should be a sophomore in college.

Sausage

02-23-2012, 04:33 PM

Too early to tell

bklynspursfan

02-23-2012, 04:45 PM

In His defense, he was on the Toros where he belongs. It's way too early to tell. I cringe anytime the guy shoots the ball. Once TJ get's back, he'll get the proper development he needs.

dylankerouac

02-23-2012, 04:49 PM

The kid wasn't picked to help now.

Yet he is.

Back to the question at hand and strictly using what he has shown on the court I haven't really been impressed. It also looks like no one else has either, he's 0-9-11. Even people who think it's too early to tell don't think he has major upside which would be a great reason to draft someone for what they can offer you in the future.

TDMVPDPOY

02-23-2012, 06:23 PM

his as fkn raw as RR the other draft bust stash in europe

TimmehC

02-23-2012, 06:38 PM

No summer league.
Missed most of training camp.
Team has had maybe 2-3 practices all season.

Yeah, it's too early to tell.

Hooks

02-23-2012, 07:04 PM

Way too early to tell, at least the Spurs got Ford who looked great in his small showing.

Muser

02-23-2012, 07:06 PM

What do you expect from the 29th pick in a weak draft?

jag

02-23-2012, 07:34 PM

What do you expect from the 29th pick in a weak draft?

Someone not worse than Chris Quinn...?

Obstructed_View

02-23-2012, 08:04 PM

Canibspur

02-23-2012, 08:17 PM

Voted too early to tell but I really havent been impressed. Im not worried about it at this point as long TJ comes back healthy and is able to get into the groove he was in before the injury. Hopefully a full normal offseason will develop him but he just really hasnt looked good at all this year with the exception of about 8 total minutes of gameplay.

BackHome

02-23-2012, 08:25 PM

My only issue is potential........I would have no problems drafting him if he excelled at something....super fast, outside shoot, great defense, 7'0 foot wing span, PG skill e.tc.. I just haven't seen anything that he can build on there just isn't a foundation. But on the other hand he should not be wearing a Spurs jersey he is not ready and having him sit the bench is not going to make him a better player. That is not his fault that is Pop and RC who must be hitting the wine bottle a little hard...:ihit

The Spurs should have kept him in the D-League from the beginning and brought up a more experience PG from the D-League when Ford was hurt. I do wish him and Richards, and Bertrans the best and hope the can make the team and contribute. But you know if you wants it enough and he bust his ass this summer who knows.....but it ain't going to come to him on a silver platter...

BackHome

02-23-2012, 08:31 PM

Nathan89

02-23-2012, 08:43 PM

bust, he won't amount to anything.

Paranoid Pop

02-23-2012, 08:52 PM

What do you expect from the 29th pick in a weak draft?

To play better than the 60th pick.

ISAIAH THOMAS PG
#60 pick Sacramento Kings
Jr. Washington
Ok, maybe we should've taken this guy. With the second to last pick of the 2011 NBA draft the Spurs took Euro stash prospect Adam Hanga, who, personally, I kinda like. With the absolute last pick the Kings took Thomas. The Kings suck, but Thomas has been pretty decent. Recently installed as the starting point guard, the 5'9'' Thomas has impressed in the four games since the switch, averaging 19.5 points, 6.5 assists, 4.25 boards in 34.5 minutes on 51% shooting and 45% from three.

dbestpro

02-23-2012, 11:02 PM

Needs to learn to stop bending over when he dribbles. Obvious a bad habit developed to improve dribble speed, but it keeps him from seeing the floor.

Spurtacus

02-23-2012, 11:06 PM

He's a good kid and seems to work hard. I thought he would go undrafted even in the weak draft. Remember the rooks didn't have an offseason.

tuncaboylu

02-24-2012, 12:55 AM

It seems like a waste of pick right now.

Jon Leuer would help us much more. Seems a good shot blocker.

tuncaboylu

02-24-2012, 12:55 AM

It seems like a waste of pick right now.

Jon Leuer would help us much more. Seems a good shot blocker.

Cane

02-24-2012, 08:14 AM

No summer league.
Missed most of training camp.
Team has had maybe 2-3 practices all season.

Yeah, it's too early to tell.

Yea this. Especially for the PG position.

Old School 44

02-24-2012, 08:56 AM

Probably too early to tell with a lean towards the negative end of the poll.
I think CJ was meant for development in the D-league all along, but with the injuries to TJ and Manu, his call-up was necessary. I'm just not too impressed with his handles, which I thought would be his biggest strength. Unfortunately, sometimes he looks like Roger Mason Jr. :(

SpurNation

02-24-2012, 09:22 AM

Too early to tell.

But if need be the dominant decision when selecting a first round pick regardless if the draft were weak or not...wasn't the need of a post player greater than the need of a pg? But I digress.

To that I would speculate the Spurs see something of ornate value in Joseph they think will develop through guidance and nurturing. Other picks listed were of the same with regards to "unknown". What they are doing now is probably an unexpected surprise to their respective teams which selected them.

Personally...I think he has something that can be tapped and developed regardless of what we're seeing at the time.

timvp

02-24-2012, 09:38 AM

Well, at least CJ wasn't the worst UT rookie on the court on Thursday night. That's a start, I guess.

FreeMad Dan

02-24-2012, 09:42 AM

I agree it's to early to tell. He needs to work on his ball handling skills, maybe develop a cross over or something. He looks like he doesn't have much confidence in that area and picks up his dribble too much.

SpurCharger

02-24-2012, 11:11 AM

Too Early To Tell. Ask The Question Again In 2 more seasons, and then We can see what type of Player we got..

Obstructed_View

02-24-2012, 11:27 AM

Too Early To Tell. Ask The Question Again In 2 more seasons, and then We can see what type of Player another team got..

Fixed.

The ADMIRAL 50

02-24-2012, 01:50 PM

I voted "too early to tell" and am pleased to see that option winning out. The reason I gave the poll five options was that I wanted a better grasp of ST's opinion of the pick than a simple yes or no I like it black and white sort of answer. The simple fact of the matter is that CJ is nowhere near the easily written off waste that perusing ST might have you believe.

I think TimmehC nailed it on the head:

No summer league.
Missed most of training camp.
Team has had maybe 2-3 practices all season.

Yeah, it's too early to tell.

While it is clear that CJ isn't ready to be a contributor to a top notch squad this season, I dont think we will be able to properly project his potential until mid-way through next season. I fully expect him to take part in summer league, get a full, real training camp under his belt, and have a better idea of what it takes to succeed on an NBA level by then. No way Joseph should be seeing meaningful court time this season, and clearly the FO never intended for him too. The silver lining of the TJ injury is that now CJ has been thrown to the fire, and this offseason both he and our staff will have a lot of film and game experience to evaluate so that they can all better understand what specifics in his game need fixing and improvement. He's getting to dip his toes in the water in a way guys like Mahinmi and Anderson weren't able to, and in regards to his long term development he will be much better served.

Lets hope by this time next year, when he will be 21 mind you, the young PG will have a lot more to offer on the NBA level, and give Spurs faithful more reason to expect good things. One thing is certain; the circumstances of this season will have afforded him a lot more knowledge and a better grasp of the NBA game, things he would have been denied this season if all went according to plan.

ceds

02-24-2012, 02:14 PM

Tinsley > Parker

buttsR4rebounding

02-24-2012, 04:37 PM

It seems like a waste of pick right now.

Jon Leuer would help us much more. Seems a good shot blocker.

I was hoping that the Spurs would take him or Jeremy Tyler. There are plenty of back up point guards and either of these guys could help out some down low.

The ADMIRAL 50

02-26-2012, 03:34 AM

I was hoping that the Spurs would take him or Jeremy Tyler. There are plenty of back up point guards and either of these guys could help out some down low.

Funny you should say that, at the time I was really hoping SA would take Jeremy Tyler as well. A very young upside big, something we haven't had much of round these parts. Doesn't look like he has done much with Golden State this year though and I haven't see him play at all.

superbigtime

02-26-2012, 03:39 AM

He stinks. He looks 12 years old. Give me Nando de Colo.

lurker23

02-26-2012, 03:51 AM

Great write-up and summary, by the way.

As most people have said, we'll know a lot more about Cory 3 years into his NBA career than we will 3 months into his NBA career. It really shouldn't surprise anyone that a project player looks like a project.

I loved watching Isaiah Thomas in college, but his play of late has surprised even me. A lot of people would have been scratching their heads if the Spurs drafted an undersized PG with the 59th pick, even if they had gone in a different direction at #29.

pgardn

02-26-2012, 11:48 AM

I don't think he's that bad. Doesn't seem to be intimidated by the moment. Doesn't seem to be dominated like a guy that's not capable of being an NBA player. That said, I don't understand why the Spurs bothered to pick someone so young at a position of immediate need simply because Pop will let Duncan bring up the ball before he lets Joseph get consistent minutes.

I dont think he is that bad... WTF does this mean?

Not only is your view obstructed, your opinion is perfectly oatmeal.

I dont think hes that bad... compared to what?

The ADMIRAL 50

02-26-2012, 12:03 PM

Great write-up and summary, by the way.

:toast thanks lurker

Manufan909

02-26-2012, 12:20 PM

Yet he is.

Back to the question at hand and strictly using what he has shown on the court I haven't really been impressed. It also looks like no one else has either, he's 0-9-11. Even people who think it's too early to tell don't think he has major upside which would be a great reason to draft someone for what they can offer you in the future.

Does 0-9-11 stand for the vote numbers when you posted?

EDIT:
1) Is the poll private?
2) Don't take the bait OV, you're better than that.

Obstructed_View

02-26-2012, 12:48 PM

I dont think he is that bad... WTF does this mean?

Not only is your view obstructed, your opinion is perfectly oatmeal.

I dont think hes that bad... compared to what?

So you only read the first six words of a post? Guess you've stopped reading this response then. Dumbass.

Manufan909

02-26-2012, 01:28 PM

So you only read the first six words of a post? Guess you've stopped reading this response then. Dumbass.

Did you see my warning and give in to the dark side anyways?:lol

Harry Callahan

02-26-2012, 01:51 PM

I'm a UT homer (without access to all the Spurs games on TV), so I voted liked what I saw - that's probably too optimistic.

Still, he's hardly played and had no meaningful training camp to learn the NBA. There's no practice time this year more than any other year - that's an issue.

It is definitely too early to tell as far as his long term projection.

He should have been in college this year making Texas a better team.

The Spurs took a shot at a guy who could be a contributor in 2-3 years, not in 2012. He needs at least another year with a lot more experience (D-League first and foremost).

Wasn't CJ the 29 pick in the draft? The odds are against you being a player that late in the draft. The Spurs have been more effective than most teams at that stage of the first round.

Obstructed_View

02-26-2012, 06:06 PM

Did you see my warning and give in to the dark side anyways?:lol

:lol I'm an idiot and didn't read your warning until just now. :lol

sehui

02-26-2012, 06:41 PM

I don't see why the Spurs drafted a PG though...Tony is still relatively young, and we could have gotten any feasible backup PG we wanted from the FA, just like how we did so with TJ Ford.

I mean, from what I've seen I'm not impressed, but like what others have mentioned, he hasn't had enough exposure.

Why didn't we draft a bigman, to adhere to our current needs? The talent pool might be crap, but hey there's gotta be a bigman during the 2012 draft that could have brought more of an impact than Cory Joseph currently.

Obstructed_View

02-26-2012, 07:54 PM

Well there WAS a need at point guard. I just don't see how you fill that need with a 19 year old freshman. It's fairly likely that despite last year's record, the Spurs didn't think they had a real shot at a title this season.

Sean Cagney

02-26-2012, 08:11 PM

Too early to tell, but wasn't he the later #1 pick of the Spurs? Leonard was the one I heard was expected to play and contribute right away, Corey? He is a future project IMO, and not a lottery pick nor near it so I don't know what some of the fans expected.

jjktkk

02-26-2012, 08:31 PM

elemento

02-26-2012, 08:41 PM

What pick after Joseph could possibly help the Spurs this year? Seriously, none of the picks would do crap.

Obstructed_View

02-26-2012, 08:54 PM

This is your conclusion with the Spur's selection of Joseph?

Were it a conclusion, I would have chosen a term other than "fairly likely". Either your reading comprehension sucks or you're spoiling for a fight. For the moment I'll pretend that it was a legitimate question:

No, it's a guess. There has to be a reason to pick Joseph, I'm just struggling to figure out what it is on a team whose window is still believed to be open by their front office with a coach who's reluctant to give PT to inexperienced players.

Obstructed_View

02-26-2012, 09:03 PM

What pick after Joseph could possibly help the Spurs this year? Seriously, none of the picks would do crap.

In hindsight, nobody's become a contributor. It's a good point. The Spurs may simply have believed that CJ was the most likely guy to be a pro of the players that were left. That makes sense.

Kindergarten Cop

02-26-2012, 09:15 PM

What pick after Joseph could possibly help the Spurs this year? Seriously, none of the picks would do crap.

Parsons is the only one that I could think of - but you have a great point when only one person can be used as an example in a complete round of the draft.

pgardn

02-27-2012, 12:52 AM

Were it a conclusion, I would have chosen a term other than "fairly likely". Either your reading comprehension sucks or you're spoiling for a fight. For the moment I'll pretend that it was a legitimate question:

No, it's a guess. There has to be a reason to pick Joseph, I'm just struggling to figure out what it is on a team whose window is still believed to be open by their front office with a coach who's reluctant to give PT to inexperienced players.

A number of people dont understand your bland nothingness. Not intimidated by the moment... this is of course why he picks up his dribble at absolutely horrible times. So your not that bad if "not intimidated by the moment"

God help this turnip.

jjktkk

02-27-2012, 01:55 AM

Were it a conclusion, I would have chosen a term other than "fairly likely". Either your reading comprehension sucks or you're spoiling for a fight. For the moment I'll pretend that it was a legitimate question:

No, it's a guess. There has to be a reason to pick Joseph, I'm just struggling to figure out what it is on a team whose window is still believed to be open by their front office with a coach who's reluctant to give PT to inexperienced players.

Imo, Joseph was a pick for the future. As far as Pop reluctance to play inexpierenced players, thats proving to be a myth, giving the past season and so far this season.

baseline bum

02-27-2012, 03:49 AM

I know it is early and it does not mean much but Draft Express has us taking the following player in the first round:

Tony Wroten PG/SG
Height (with shoes): 6-5
Weight: 204.5
Wingspan: 6-8

From DraftExpress.com http://www.draftexpress.com#ixzz1nG5roS5A
http://www.draftexpress.com

Wroten reminds me of Rafer Alson. I mean, nobody in the college game can make the highlight passes Wroten can, but he turns it over a lot and his shooting sucks. Plus he has already torn an ACL. Wroten has been a really hyped prospect for a long time who looks like he's not going to live up to the potential. This guy used to be a top-5 prospect in his class, but then again, so was the Celtics' backup point Avery Bradley. On the plus side Wroten has great size for the position and that combined with his ballhandling skill makes him a perfect project point guard to take with a late pick. I still don't know what the hell they saw in Joseph. Size maybe?

Obstructed_View

02-27-2012, 07:28 AM

Imo, Joseph was a pick for the future. As far as Pop reluctance to play inexpierenced players, thats proving to be a myth, giving the past season and so far this season.

A pick for the future at a current position of need doesn't make a ton of sense to me, but I've worn that point out, and I guess I'm the only one who feels that way. Seeing the two or three guys they wanted off the board just before their pick was probably what happened and Joseph was the only other person they even considered, so it just became a pick for the future because there were no other options once the Heat picked Cole.

Myth? Tiago Splitter says hello from the bench last year.

jjktkk

02-27-2012, 05:42 PM

A pick for the future at a current position of need doesn't make a ton of sense to me, but I've worn that point out, and I guess I'm the only one who feels that way. Seeing the two or three guys they wanted off the board just before their pick was probably what happened and Joseph was the only other person they even considered, so it just became a pick for the future because there were no other options once the Heat picked Cole.

Myth? Tiago Splitter says hello from the bench last year.

And Neal, Anderson(prior to his injury last year), And Leonard wish you all the best.

BackHome

02-28-2012, 08:53 PM

[QUOTE=Obstructed_View;5670392]A pick for the future at a current position of need doesn't make a ton of sense to me, but I've worn that point out, and I guess I'm the only one who feels that way. Seeing the two or three guys they wanted off the board just before their pick was probably what happened and Joseph was the only other person they even considered, so it just became a pick for the future because there were no other options once the Heat picked Cole.

If that is the case then they need to fire there scouting department. Everyone had Cory as a mid to late second rounder.

elemento

02-28-2012, 08:56 PM