Boom! Goes the EV Paradigm.

[TeyshaBlue]

http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-57384864-54/startup-envia-battery-promises-to-slash-ev-costs/

Finally, an EV that will meet real world expectations? Maybe just a whiff of this will help the Chevy Volt stay alive until the technology can be delivered.

[Drachen]

LOL, I was just getting ready to post this!

It is pretty exciting, I mean, I believe that range anxiety will be SIGNIFICANTLY lessened when the EVs have 250-300 mile ranges. Especially with all of these fast chargers that are being introduced. Something like this pretty much ushers in the era of electric cars.

[TeyshaBlue]

LOL, I was just getting ready to post this!

:toast

[RandomGuy]

Interesting bit.

Loves me that data.

Looked up some basic (probably dated) information on current costs:
http://www.allaboutbatteries.com/Battery-Energy.html

That was useful in providing some conversion ratios to get to a figure of about 1.4Mj/kg in energy for the new tech in the article.

which then lets one compare it to gasoline, at 46Mj/kg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_efficiency

given that 75% of that is heat, the work energy available is closer to 12Mj/kg

From the first link the battery technology is about 3.5 times more energy dense than most conventional tech up to recently, and the cost approaches that of the cheapie lead-acid battery.

The fact that it is cost competitive (12 cents per unit of energy versus 17 cents for lead) with lead-acid batteries, says this technology will almost certainly replace that technology for gasoline cars at the very least.

It also holds the potential for knocking down battery costs for PV systems, and appears to be scalable to utility usage, if so.

Nifty.

This would be further applicable to home-charging PV schemes for the same cars that stand to benefit from the cost reductions in manufacturing.

If one is concerned about energy security, you need to be screaming for technology like this. :)

[Wild Cobra]

75% heat...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but modern internal combustion cars are that efficient, aren't they?

[RandomGuy]

A simple carport design, with the roof of the carport made up of PV cells, and a charging station with the new tech, would be all it would take.

BAM!!

Hmmm taking wiki's figures for Mj/liter... getting that to Mj/gal, then factoring out the heat loss... (75%)

32Mj/gal of gasoline available to move the vehicle around.

Let's see, given say, 30MPG for an average small car or similar, and say 80 miles perday average total usage...

80/30*32= 85Mj/day energy requirement.

[RandomGuy]

75% heat...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but modern internal combustion cars are that efficient, aren't they?

75% loss of energy through heat and 25% converted to mechanical energy is what I remember off the top of my head.

[TeyshaBlue]

75% heat...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but modern internal combustion cars are that efficient, aren't they?

I think so...gas engines are somewhere in the 20-25% range.

[Drachen]

Here ya go WC

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/atv.shtml


Only about 14%–26% of the energy from the fuel you put in your tank gets used to move your car down the road, depending on the drive cycle. The rest of the energy is lost to engine and driveline inefficiencies or used to power accessories. Therefore, the potential to improve fuel efficiency with advanced technologies is enormous.

[boutons_deux]

no

while gasoline/diesel have much higher energy density, they don't get much above 30% efficiency.

If the heat lost could be converted by solid-state devices (engine block + exhaust chain) to electricity to charge batteries, a huge advance.

70% of imported oil goes to transport, and 70% of that oil is wasted as heat. So 50% of imported oil wasted as heat, without even considering the energy used in refining.

[Drachen]

A simple carport design, with the roof of the carport made up of PV cells, and a charging station with the new tech, would be all it would take.

BAM!!

Hmmm taking wiki's figures for Mj/liter... getting that to Mj/gal, then factoring out the heat loss... (75%)

32Mj/gal of gasoline available to move the vehicle around.

Let's see, given say, 30MPG for an average small car or similar, and say 80 miles perday average total usage...

80/30*32= 85Mj/day energy requirement.

Close, but you can't completely factor out heat loss, or other inefficiencies.

[RandomGuy]

Now 90% of battery energy goes to moving car around, so you have 1.4*.9 = 1.26 per kilogram to do work.

Now we just need to figure cost per Kg

85Mj/1.26 = 67 kilograms of batteries. (to replace one gallon of gasoline)



400 watt-hours per kilogram at a projected cost of $125 per kilowatt-hour

kilowatt hour is 1000 watt-hours... 1000/400 = 2.5 kg = $125 cost per kg 125/2.5 = $50

50*67 = $3,370 in batteries to run the car for 80 miles/day.

per miles cost = about $42 (41.875) this gives you your conversion factor if you desire more range. (assuming recharge daily)

if you want a full 300 mile range, it then goes to $12,562

[RandomGuy]

A home charging system would allow daily re-fueling however.

You don't need a full 300 mile range unless you drive that much daily.

You just need a battery system that gets 99% of your usage.

I imagine one could have a spot in the trunk for a plug in spare battery for increased range for long trips, if desired.

If you want a home system that meets your needs, you can figure out your transportation usage, then double the battery need (one for the car, one for the charging system that soaks up power while you are at work), and add in cost per watt for a PV system.

My time is up, but I might work up a spreadsheet around this for fun.

[Drachen]

~130 lbs for the battery.. damn. I just checked and the nissan leaf battery (+ control module) weighs 660 lbs. You may get increased efficiencies just off of that! Also Nissan pays 18k for their battery and control module. This is big

[RandomGuy]

~130 lbs for the battery.. damn. I just checked and the nissan leaf battery (+ control module) weighs 660 lbs. You may get increased efficiencies just off of that! Also Nissan pays 18k for their battery and control module. This is big

Do I get to mention that the research was partly funded by the government?

Yeah, I went there. :stirpot:

[Drachen]

Throw that shit away.

/s

[boutons_deux]

Electric Car Revolution Starts in France: Renault EVs Arrive at Dealerships

http://www.plugincars.com/sites/default/files/Many-electric-Renault-Kangoo-parked.jpg

Batteries Not Included

As every EV fan knows, an electric car requires little maintenance, but it's nice to know that Renault has set up an organization so that the customer will never be left to his own devices. In fact, customers will have to maintain a constant relationship with Renault, because the company has chosen not to sell its batteries. That's the trick to make the electric car cheaper. People will buy the car, without any other choice than to rent the battery. The Renault Kangoo Z.E. (the first model available) starts at 20,000 euros ($27,320) VAT not included, and government incentives for buying an EV not deducted. You must add on top of that the monthly rent for the 22-kWh (usable) battery, which varies between 72 and 125 euros ($98 to $170), depending on the mileage and the contract's length. Electricity isn't included—and neither is the charging cord pictured below, which is an option. For some reason, Renault believes most users will have access to a charging station and won't need the cord. That is probably true for the Kangoo which most often should be bought as a work vehicle.
That charging cord doesn't come free with the car, you've got to pay extra for it

That charging cord doesn't come free with the car, you've got to pay extra for it.

http://www.plugincars.com/renault-electric-cars-are-here-ev-revolution-has-started-france-109669.html

Mfrs need to get out of the proprietary battery business, and pool their resources in a industry battery research org, that would deliver a generic plug-in battery sold for all EVs and from 1000s of sources, just like gasoline and diesel are commodities.

[RandomGuy]

~130 lbs for the battery.. damn. I just checked and the nissan leaf battery (+ control module) weighs 660 lbs. You may get increased efficiencies just off of that! Also Nissan pays 18k for their battery and control module. This is big

Don't put too much stock in my back of the envelope calculations, but it does give one some idea as to the rough magnitude of the discovery, yes.

The article did talk about the fact that even if you do nothing else to the car but make it lose 500 pounds, it will get better mileage.

Given the way gas is going, one has to think about this in terms of the fact that this technology is going to be price-compared to a technology whose costs are going up.

PV and battery costs only go down, gasoline costs only go up (especially given just about all China/India/Africa growth scenarios).

It does not take a genius to see there will be a point where the total system costs of EV's with renewable charging schemes become cheaper than the gas-guzzlers.

Sounds like a nifty weekend project.

[TeyshaBlue]

@ boutons' link.

Downside...it's a Renault.:lol

[RandomGuy]

Electric Car Revolution Starts in France: Renault EVs Arrive at Dealerships

http://www.plugincars.com/sites/default/files/Many-electric-Renault-Kangoo-parked.jpg

Batteries Not Included

As every EV fan knows, an electric car requires little maintenance, but it's nice to know that Renault has set up an organization so that the customer will never be left to his own devices. In fact, customers will have to maintain a constant relationship with Renault, because the company has chosen not to sell its batteries. That's the trick to make the electric car cheaper. People will buy the car, without any other choice than to rent the battery. The Renault Kangoo Z.E. (the first model available) starts at 20,000 euros ($27,320) VAT not included, and government incentives for buying an EV not deducted. You must add on top of that the monthly rent for the 22-kWh (usable) battery, which varies between 72 and 125 euros ($98 to $170), depending on the mileage and the contract's length. Electricity isn't included—and neither is the charging cord pictured below, which is an option. For some reason, Renault believes most users will have access to a charging station and won't need the cord. That is probably true for the Kangoo which most often should be bought as a work vehicle.
That charging cord doesn't come free with the car, you've got to pay extra for it

That charging cord doesn't come free with the car, you've got to pay extra for it.

http://www.plugincars.com/renault-electric-cars-are-here-ev-revolution-has-started-france-109669.html

Mfrs need to get out of the proprietary battery business, and pool their resources in a industry battery research org, that would deliver a generic plug-in battery sold for all EVs and from 1000s of sources, just like gasoline and diesel are commodities.




Envia [the developer of the technology referenced] licensed technology from Argonne National Laboratory and was funded with $4 million from the ARPA-E agency in 2009 to develop the high-energy density battery. It also received a grant from the U.S. Advanced Battery Consortium.

http://www.uscar.org/guest/view_team.php?teams_id=12

Members are the big three US automakers.

[Wild Cobra]

Here ya go WC

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/atv.shtml
Therefore, the potential to improve fuel efficiency with advanced technologies is enormous.
This is why I advocate things like fuel cells for fuel.

[RandomGuy]

Continue development of high-power battery technologies to reduce cost to $20/kW and extend life to 15 years.

I would guess they figure the tipping point I was talking about to be about $20/kw

So they are going to be at $125 per k/w, and this is down from $470 per k/w relatively recently.


This is where U.S. competitive advantage in innovation will win out in the long run, IMO.

[Wild Cobra]

This is where U.S. competitive advantage in innovation will win out in the long run, IMO.
Until China steals it.

[Drachen]

I would guess they figure the tipping point I was talking about to be about $20/kw

So they are going to be at $125 per k/w, and this is down from $470 per k/w relatively recently.


This is where U.S. competitive advantage in innovation will win out in the long run, IMO.

If we get funding for it... The others have the brains and a steady stream of guaranteed Govt money coming in.

[RandomGuy]

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-02-16/10q-how-aes-captures-and-stores-the-wind.html

10Q: How AES Captures and Stores the Wind

Making batteries twice as cheap means they can afford to store twice as much power.

They are talking 50MW chunks, up to 400MW storage.

An interesting point is that this capacity is instantly available, increasing the stability of the grid.

[RandomGuy]

I would guess they figure the tipping point I was talking about to be about $20/kw

So they are going to be at $125 per k/w, and this is down from $470 per k/w relatively recently.


This is where U.S. competitive advantage in innovation will win out in the long run, IMO.

bump. Poptech missed it.

[RandomGuy]

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-02-16/10q-how-aes-captures-and-stores-the-wind.html

10Q: How AES Captures and Stores the Wind

Making batteries twice as cheap means they can afford to store twice as much power.

They are talking 50MW chunks, up to 400MW storage.

An interesting point is that this capacity is instantly available, increasing the stability of the grid.

This also increases overall demand for renewables, with their fixed fuel costs, i.e. zero.

[MannyIsGod]

Within the next decade the naysayers are going to see a lot of changes. It is interesting seeing all these new business models popping up.

[boutons_deux]

next commodity boom/speculation/scarcity? lithium

[TeyshaBlue]

Pretty good guesss, tbh.

[boutons_deux]

Giving Hydrogen Fuel-Cell Cars Another Chance



http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/future_tense/2012/05/hydrogen_fuel_cell_vehicles_and_the_obama_administ ration_.single.html

[boutons_deux]

...

[Wild Cobra]

next commodity boom/speculation/scarcity? lithium
Maybe asteroid mining.

I forget, can we find it there?

[Wild Cobra]

Giving Hydrogen Fuel-Cell Cars Another Chance



http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/future_tense/2012/05/hydrogen_fuel_cell_vehicles_and_the_obama_administ ration_.single.html
We don't need subsidies there. All these makers know there is a market for a viable solution. The first to patent it will make out big. Besides, rather than hydrogen fuel cells, we need to focus on methane fuel cells. Methane is more easily stored than hydrogen.

[RandomGuy]

next commodity boom/speculation/scarcity? lithium

Possibly.


Until they find a technology that doesn't require it. There are some interesting possibilities out there.

[RandomGuy]

We don't need subsidies there. All these makers know there is a market for a viable solution. The first to patent it will make out big. Besides, rather than hydrogen fuel cells, we need to focus on methane fuel cells. Methane is more easily stored than hydrogen.

Oddly enough, one large stony asteroid pulled into orbit woud make hydrogen fuel cells, and their platinum catalyst plates a lot cheaper.

(have to double check about that, but I am pretty sure most fuel cell designs require platinium as a non-consumable catalyst, which is why they are not cost effective)

Heh, we will see if the asteroid miners can change the game.

[RandomGuy]

http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-57384864-54/startup-envia-battery-promises-to-slash-ev-costs/

Finally, an EV that will meet real world expectations? Maybe just a whiff of this will help the Chevy Volt stay alive until the technology can be delivered.

in regards to the latter: Looks so, and looks to give Chevy some operational experience.

Interesting to check in on this nine years later. Not a vast sea-change in the last nine years, in terms of widespread use, but there has been a sea-change in investment, and the next decade will see that come to pass.

[RandomGuy]

Ford jolts auto industry with $11.4 billion investment in new electric vehicle, battery plants
"We're on the cusp of a revolution," Ford Executive Chairman Bill Ford tells "NBC Nightly News."

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/ford-jolts-auto-industry-11-4-billion-investment-new-electric-n1280182

[boutons_deux]

This may not be the one,

but there will be one or more transformative battery breakthroughs

Battery Breakthrough Provides Five Times The Driving Range Of Lithium-Ion At A Lower Price

https://www.torquenews.com/15975/battery-breakthrough-provides-five-times-driving-range-lithium-ion-lower-price

[boutons_deux]

1 in 5 Tesla owners switch back to gas due to hassle of charging

[MultiTroll]

Barry Obama and Joey B all for the EV revolution.

Fat Orange Communist and Oil Pig Cucks blocking advancement.

Russian oil huge for Pootins economy.

[RandomGuy]

Within the next decade the naysayers are going to see a lot of changes. It is interesting seeing all these new business models popping up.

Called it. :tu

[RandomGuy]

Barry Obama and Joey B all for the EV revolution.

Fat Orange Communist and Oil Pig Cucks blocking advancement.

Russian oil huge for Pootins economy.

for a second, that looked a bit like a haiku

[Winehole23]

https://ritholtz.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/rapidev.png

[hater]

Kaboom

Didnt know Teslas have such shitty escape in case of a battery explosion. You have.to reach to somehow remove the cover that has the manual door operator :lmao :lmao


Fuck that never getting one of those deathtraps :lol


Also :lmao at the Tesla recommendation that you need to pour 3000-5000 gallons of water on an exploded battery

A firetruck only has like 1000 gallons :lmao



https://twitter.com/asswarfare/status/1534204352163893248

[SnakeBoy]

1534534390029733889

[ElNono]

1534534390029733889

:lol Benny Johnson
:lol God, Family, America
:lol Newsmax
:lol TPUSA boi
:lmao Journalist

[spurraider21]

1534534390029733889
:lmao benny johnson digging up 2010 videos for a failed gotcha
:lmao people who still think "but how does the car charge LOL" is an intelligent gotcha

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Once they perfect the sodium solid state batteries or a similar tech then electric vehicles will destroy ICE. Sodium has the same outer valence and a better energy density at a similar development point. It also doesn't crystallize and arc.

Until then the batteries are prohibitive for real general use.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

1534534390029733889

So how much more efficient do you think your typical power turbine is as opposed to your typical V6?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

And unless they figure out how to keep the N out of the H combustion chamber then you are dumping nitric and other highly caustic acids as exhaust. There is no catalytic converter for that and H burns so hot that N will oxidize too.

Great for space use but useless for earth bound activities.

[SnakeBoy]

:lmao benny johnson digging up 2010 videos for a failed gotcha


It's been good bait for a decade

[SnakeBoy]

Once they perfect the sodium solid state batteries or a similar tech then electric vehicles will destroy ICE.

Poors just need to suck it up until then. lol poors.

[Th'Pusher]

It's been good bait for a decade

Great bait! You baited EN and SR21 to mocking you!

You seem to derive pleasure out of being humiliated.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Poors just need to suck it up until then. lol poors.

Are you a child? It's an emerging tech. Your political party preference obstructs anything that subsidizes EV industry and then turn around and hand wave at high prices.

MY point was that last Spring they found how to structure the solid Na batt such that they did not degrade and brittle up as they were charged and uncharged. It's at twice the energy density as Li at a similar development point. No dendrites. No arcing across the membrane or the other pitfall of liquid state batts.

Your corporate overlords ship is sinking.

[SnakeBoy]

https://charts.stocktwits.com/production/original_465823492.png

[boutons_deux]

shithole NC Repug shitbags block "free" EV charging, UNLESS gasoline is also free.

[SnakeBoy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-e55Vued028&t=1337s

tldw - The Lightning is a really nice truck for people who don't really need a truck

[boutons_deux]

there is noq so much battery research everywhere.

Today's EV batteries will be replaced by one or more new tech batteries

A Researcher Just Accidentally Developed A Battery That Could Last A Lifetime

invented a nanowire-based battery that can be recharged hundreds of thousands of times, a significant leap towards a battery that doesn’t require replacing.

charged and discharged the battery up to 200,000 times without breaking the nanowires and without loss of capacity.

https://www.iflscience.com/new-battery-can-be-recharged-hundreds-thousands-times-35244


Same with hydrogen

[SnakeBoy]

A family in Florida drove into a major problem after buying a used electric vehicle: the replacement battery for their dead car wound up costing more than the used car was purchased for.

Avery Siwinski is a 17-year-old whose parents spent $11,000 on a used Ford Focus Electric car, which is a 2014 model and had about 60,000 miles when it was bought, according to KVUE.

The teenager had the car for six months before it began giving her issues and the dashboard was flashing symbols.

"It was fine at first," Siwinski said. "I loved it so much. It was small and quiet and cute. And all the sudden it stopped working."

She told the news outlet that the car stopped running after taking it to a repair shop, and the family eventually found out that the car's battery would need to be replaced.

The problem? A battery for the electric car costs $14,000, according to the news outlet.

[monosylab1k]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-e55Vued028&t=1337s

tldw - The Lightning is a really nice truck for people who don't really need a truck

99% of truck owners don’t really need a truck. If you’re in that 99% who just want a peen extender, then the Lightning is a great option. If you’re one of the tiny few that have to do a lot of long range towing, then don’t buy it.

[SnakeBoy]

Michigan auto giant Ford is planning on laying off up to 8,000 workers to help the company fund its electric vehicle (EV) projects, according to a Wednesday report from Bloomberg.

The cuts, though still pending, are expected to be implemented in the coming weeks and will affect salaried workers, as well as the automaker's new Ford Blue unit that was created in March to oversee internal combustion engine operations, Bloomberg reported.

"To deliver our Ford+ transformation and lead this exciting and disruptive new era of electric and connected vehicles, we remain focused on reshaping our work and modernizing our organization across all automotive business units and across the company," Ford spokesman T.R. Reid said, adding, "As part of this, we have laid out clear targets to lower our cost structure to ensure we are lean and fully competitive with the best in the industry."

[Winehole23]

Michigan auto giant Ford is planning on laying off up to 8,000 workers to help the company fund its electric vehicle (EV) projects, according to a Wednesday report from Bloomberg.

The cuts, though still pending, are expected to be implemented in the coming weeks and will affect salaried workers, as well as the automaker's new Ford Blue unit that was created in March to oversee internal combustion engine operations, Bloomberg reported.

"To deliver our Ford+ transformation and lead this exciting and disruptive new era of electric and connected vehicles, we remain focused on reshaping our work and modernizing our organization across all automotive business units and across the company," Ford spokesman T.R. Reid said, adding, "As part of this, we have laid out clear targets to lower our cost structure to ensure we are lean and fully competitive with the best in the industry."are you anti-business? why do you hate capitalism?

[Winehole23]

lol ST right wingers clutching their pearls at the plight of labor and the working man

[SnakeBoy]

lol ST right wingers clutching their pearls at the plight of labor and the working man

The hiring freezes and planned layoffs are building lol

[boutons_deux]

Battery tech, esp non-Li battery tech, is making big leaps in labs across the planet, one or more will kill Li batteries

US tax dollars investing the future:

Breakthrough battery technology able

to charge average EV battery in just 10 minutes

A project funded in part by the Defense Department, Energy Department, and other federal agencies

sure looks like it was worth the money.

Researchers were able to develop a charging device that can recharge a standard electric vehicle battery in just 10 minutes.

https://m.dailykos.com/stories/2022/10/12/2128361/-Breakthrough-battery-technology-able-to-charge-average-EV-battery-in-just-10-minutes

anybody working or shilling for criminal BigFossil is equally guilty.