Backup Point Guard: TJ Ford or Gary Neal?

[timvp]

To begin the season, TJ Ford was given the backup point guard duties and Pop never deviated from that alignment. However, since Ford's return from injury, Pop hasn't given Ford his previous role back. In fact, in each game since Ford's return, Pop has also given time to Gary Neal at backup point guard.

In the press, Pop didn't exactly give Ford a glowing endorsement when asked about his future role on the team.
We’ve been playing a different way without him. It’s always an adjustment to see if you want to change that.

Pop's actions and words make me believe he's giving strong consideration to giving Neal the backup point guard job on a permanent basis. Is that a smart move? Here are some pros and cons:

Pros to Neal as backup point guard
-Neal is a better shooter.

-Neal's best defensive position is likely point guard.

-Offensively, once Manu Ginobili is healthy, Neal likely forms the better tandem due to his ability to spread the court. Especially since Ginobili tends to do most of the playmaking anyways.

-Neal has good chemistry with Tiago Splitter. It was with Neal at backup point guard that Splitter exploded onto the scene.

-It allows Neal to play more minutes. Since Neal is likely a more vital cog than Ford in the big picture, that's a good thing.

-Neal is much less likely to get injured than Ford.



Cons to Neal as backup point guard
-Ford is the much better ball-handler.

-Ford is a much better passer.

-Ford has shown the ability to be a quality defender when focused.

-Even when Neal is combined with Ginobili, that duo is susceptible to pressure defense.

-When Ford is in the rotation, there is greater flexibility. For example, Ford can allow Parker to spend some minutes at point guard.








What do you think? Who do you want as the team's backup point guard? Is Pop crazy for even contemplating Neal as the long-term solution?

Discuss.

[ChumpDumper]

Doesn't look like TJ is completely back physically if he's getting assigned to the Toros. This might be premature.

[Bill_Brasky]

TJ is so much better defensively than Neal, his feet are way quicker.....not to say that Neal is terrible, but he's pretty average on that end, while TJ does an excellent job of staying with his man and cutting off drives. Being able to stop PG penetration stops all the drive-and-dish junk that seems to kill this team.

Then there's the issue of teams keying in on Neal's poor ball handling and trapping him....those are situations where Pop is always quick to pull him and put Parker back in, but I'm worried about Parker wearing down. In other words, I feel like TJ would be more consistent and able to handle more backup minutes while Tony rests, while Neal is very iffy and would be easier to shut down.

I don't mind Neal getting some PG mins, but ultimately I think this team is better served letting a true PG get the majority of the backup PG minutes.

[DesignatedT]

I for one would like to see Neal get as much minutes as possible but not necessarily at the expense of T.J. Once the playoffs roll around I would pretty much like to see a guard rotation of Parker-Ford, Manu-Neal with RJ and Leonard getting the main minutes at the 3. This essentially makes Green the odd man out which is pretty tough also since he's had a good year for us.

I think Neal is going to get his minutes no matter what position it's at but by bringing TJ back you are going to have to start cutting back the minutes of one of the wings and It can't be Leonard IMO and as long as RJ is on the roster it won't be him.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Neal at PG will always be destined for failure.

Ford by a mile.

[timvp]

Doesn't look like TJ is completely back physically if he's getting assigned to the Toros. This might be premature.

Nice timing by Pop submarining my thread, tbh.

But that Pop quote plus his rotations still make me wonder. If Ford was still gimpy, why play him at all? What purpose does running Neal for a few minutes at point guard serve before turning to Ford?

And if you're going to keep a guy with a hamstring pull healthy, I don't think the best idea is to throw him into intense second half action after sitting the start of the game. That sounds like a recipe for re-injury, IMO.

[timvp]

I for one would like to see Neal get as much minutes as possible but not necessarily at the expense of T.J. Once the playoffs roll around I would pretty much like to see a guard rotation of Parker-Ford, Manu-Neal with RJ and Leonard getting the main minutes at the 3. This essentially makes Green the odd man out which is pretty tough also since he's had a good year for us.

I think Neal is going to get his minutes no matter what position it's at but by bringing TJ back you are going to have to start cutting back the minutes of one of the wings and It can't be Leonard IMO and as long as RJ is on the roster it won't be him.

This brings up a good point. It may not necessarily be Ford vs. Neal in terms of minutes. It could very well end up being Ford vs. Leonard once you factor in the trickle down effect.

Is playing Ford at backup point guard worth taking minutes away from Leonard?

[Paranoid Pop]

We have too many guards right now, in the latest Neal interview on spurs.com you could tell there was a bit of tension as far as the minute repartition is concerned.

Neal and Ford both deserve to play, Neal moreso because of what he has proven with the team during last year playoffs and during the 11 games winning streak, he's the perfect back up for Parker imo, defenders go behind the screen with Parker and that opens things up for Neal.

So the 1 is stacked.

At the 2 we have : Manu, Green, Anderson. That's not quite as good, Neal can easily get minutes there too tbh but then again it comes down to team balance, size and defense.

I don't think the rotation management is that good right now tbh.

[DesignatedT]

I'm not exactly sure what Pop is doing with Anderson but with the trade deadline being 10 days away I have to assume it's still related to that. I think after the deadline passes you will see the rotation slowly start to stiffen up. I still think the Spurs make some sort of deal even if it's just a minor salary dump type.

[jjktkk]

Imo, Pop wanted Neal to be able to handle spot duty at pg. The signing of Ford was insurance in case the Neal expierment at pg failed.

[RodNIc91]

Here's what I believe will happen. Ford will get a 2-3 max games to show he will be the backup pg. After that it will be Neal's job in order to set the wing rotation as it is. Once the playoffs come, Jefferson inevitably will become a liability so that in a couple of games he gets thrown out of the rotation. Even then the minutes will be up for the grabs between Anderson and Ford. Whoever presents a better matchup and/or makes less mistakes will get the job. Kinda like splitter and hill before him

[SpursNextRomanEmpire]

I loved what Ford was doing before he got injured, especially when we was working with Splitter. Hopefully he can get back to that.

[will_spurs]

First of all re: pros and cons, I seem to remember that Ford had good chemistry with Splitter too. It was not as obvious as with Neal because Splitter wasn't playing that much and Ford got injured for so long.

There are a few things I like about TJ:
- it opens up a lot of options. We know a Parker+TJ backcourt worked well in the past, which can be key in the playoffs when teams are going to start focusing on "the head of the snake" (Parker) a lot more than now. We know from experience that the answer to that is a double PG lineup, either Parker+Manu or Parker+TJ. Given how injury prone both Manu and Ford are, they are kinda insurance for each other in this scenario.
- given that we have only one real 3 (Kawhi) and basically no 4 to speak of, TJ's presence allows the Spurs to go "super small" with Manu paying wing and a backcourt of Parker / Ford / Neal. It might not be the best scenario on D obviously, but it's clear that on offense such a line-up would create some fireworks (as we have seen in the past).
- TJ is a complete PG: he can create his own shot, he can hit open jumpers, he can pass. This versatility makes him very useful.
- the intensity goes up a notch in the playoffs, and we know weaknesses tend to be magnified. This is why Neal's relatively poor ball handling skills are a concern, because we know teams are going to focus on that and make us pay. I'm not really a follower of Pop's approach that a vet, no matter how dead, is always better than a rookie, but in the case of Ford the experience might be very welcome at that point: taking care of the ball and not doing stupid mistakes.
- play TJ at backup PG will allow Neal to refocus on what he's doing best: get in a rhythm, get a streak going, hit some dagger 3s. I'm afraid that having to protect the ball during the playoffs will take Neal off his rhythm.
- it's a bit early but TJ is already a serious contender for best back-up PG in the Parker era. It would be silly not to call upon him when needed.

And last but not least (sorry for the long post), I really appreciate TJ because I was a doubter when he signed with the Spurs. I was really afraid he was going to be a ballhog and slow down the offense. But quite to the contrary he has been a positive force in my opinion, running the offense like a seasoned vet, making nice passes, not having a bias (this is clear in how much he involves the younger player) and going for his shot when needed. I think it would suck if he had made all those efforts to be the perfect teammate for nothing.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Maybe Pop wants both to be ready to play back up, so he can roll out different lineups t depending on the match up with the opposition. Ford would probably not be a good play against bigger, physical point guards, and may be quicker to stay with the quicker point guards.

Neal and Ginobili also is one of our saltiest guard combos,.while Ford and Manu just makes no sense to me, since Manu likes to be the primary ball handler, and Ford is useless off the ball.

[therealtruth]

Pop certainly has options and that's what you love to have. I think Neal and Manu give us guys who can run the pick and roll with Splitter for an open 3 or layup for Splitter.

[z0sa]

Ford for backup PG.

[lurker23]

I prefer Ford for backup PG. He was working really well early in the season, and I just like the idea of a true PG running the 2nd unit. Granted, Neal is a better emergency option than Roger Mason Jr. ever was, but I prefer TJ bringing the ball up the court against playoff defenses.

All this being said, this debate could potentially change after the trade deadline. While I know the pickings are slim given the Spurs potential trade pieces, I imagine they'll still be exploring every possible avenue. Any trade that involves any 1 through 3 player will impact the guard rotation.

Another point involving the trade deadline, albeit with a little wishful thinking: Once the trade deadline has passed, the only motivation Pop will have is to put the best team on the floor. In my mind, this means no more minutes for James Anderson, and potentially fewer minutes for Jefferson and Blair when they're not playing well. This opens up minutes for Neal, Leonard, and Green.

[TD 21]

I prefer Ford . . . in the regular season, that is. It allows them to play a full second unit and give Ginobili one extended break per half, rather than having him run himself ragged with the second unit, like he's done in season's past. And between Ford's play making, Neal's and Bonner's shooting and Splitter's rolling/posting, there's enough offense there that they can not only get away with it, but oftentimes thrive.

In the playoffs, it's a different story. It's extremely difficult to play ten, so realistically, they've got to cut two perimeter guys out of the rotation and like it or not, one isn't going to be Jefferson. Similar to Blair last season, maybe as a desperation move when their backs are against the wall, they'd do that; but not going in. Really, it comes down to Leonard vs Green, for the wing defender role and Neal vs Ford, for the offensive catalyst role. In that scenario, I'd take the former both times.

[Spurs Brazil]

This brings up a good point. It may not necessarily be Ford vs. Neal in terms of minutes. It could very well end up being Ford vs. Leonard once you factor in the trickle down effect.

Is playing Ford at backup point guard worth taking minutes away from Leonard?

I know it' won't happen but Pop should start Leonard. Ford would get Jefferson minutes. And Jefferson would be 2003 Smith



:drunk

[ElNono]

Ford. To me, it's not close and has little to do with Ford but with Neal handles, especially under pressure.

[Old School 44]

I think during the playoffs, it won't be either. It will be Manu handling the ball.
Out of TJ and Gary, the minutes will probably go down overall for TJ, simply because Gary's a much better shooter. Matchups will dictate how much more time TJ gets.

[ElNono]

Now, if you tell me Manu will play backup PG, I think TJ is more expendable.

[angelbelow]

Ford is the way to go. He is a better point guard in every aspect of the game. Everything you've listed with respect to point guard advantages is hypothetical (ex. Neal is probably best suited for guarding PGs.)

Neal playing point wasn't the reason Splitter exploded into the scene. In fact, early on, Neal completely ignored Splitter in multiple games. It was Parker who really got Splitter going.

[TD 21]

I think Ford was brought in to get them through the regular season, without having to run Parker and Ginobili into the ground. Ford's strengths -- ball handling and play making -- are not really necessary in the playoffs, because Parker and Ginobili, will play more and one will probably always be in the game. Unless, of course, it turns into a blowout.

Those of you advocating Ford in the playoffs, but not at the expense of Neal, are advocating one of two things. 1) Having a 10 or 11 man rotation or 2) Having a 9 man rotation, with no wing defender.

I don't see how either makes sense. It sounds great in theory to play 10, but then that cuts into the minutes of one, two or all three of, Parker, Ginobili and Neal. They need to increase Parker's and Ginobili's minutes in the playoffs, not keep them at the same level or decrease them.

[MaNu4Tres]

I think Ford was brought in to get them through the regular season, without having to run Parker and Ginobili into the ground. Ford's strengths -- ball handling and play making -- are not really necessary in the playoffs, because Parker and Ginobili, will play more and one will probably always be in the game. Unless, of course, it turns into a blowout.

Those of you advocating Ford in the playoffs, but not at the expense of Neal, are advocating one of two things. 1) Having a 10 or 11 man rotation or 2) Having a 9 man rotation, with no wing defender.

I don't see how either makes sense. It sounds great in theory to play 10, but then that cuts into the minutes of one, two or all three of, Parker, Ginobili and Neal. They need to increase Parker's and Ginobili's minutes in the playoffs, not keep them at the same level or decrease them.

:tu

[Bruno]

the intensity goes up a notch in the playoffs, and we know weaknesses tend to be magnified. This is why Neal's relatively poor ball handling skills are a concern, because we know teams are going to focus on that and make us pay. I'm not really a follower of Pop's approach that a vet, no matter how dead, is always better than a rookie, but in the case of Ford the experience might be very welcome at that point: taking care of the ball and not doing stupid mistakes.

To me that's the key point why TJ should be the backup PG. With Neal as PG, there are risks of having what happened with Beno against Detroit in '05.

Now, If TJ sucks or if he get injured, Pop has always in his back pocket the option of a Neal/Ginobili backcourt.

[Seventyniner]

I think Ford was brought in to get them through the regular season, without having to run Parker and Ginobili into the ground. Ford's strengths -- ball handling and play making -- are not really necessary in the playoffs, because Parker and Ginobili, will play more and one will probably always be in the game. Unless, of course, it turns into a blowout.

Those of you advocating Ford in the playoffs, but not at the expense of Neal, are advocating one of two things. 1) Having a 10 or 11 man rotation or 2) Having a 9 man rotation, with no wing defender.

I don't see how either makes sense. It sounds great in theory to play 10, but then that cuts into the minutes of one, two or all three of, Parker, Ginobili and Neal. They need to increase Parker's and Ginobili's minutes in the playoffs, not keep them at the same level or decrease them.

Nailed it.

[HarlemHeat37]

In all likelihood, Ford won't be a 100% for the playoffs..even if he is, he'll probably get hurt again, tbh, it has been the story of his career..

Danny Green should be the odd man out, on the perimeter, in the playoffs IMO..

It would be foolish for Pop to drop Leonard out of the rotation..his style of play should translate well to the playoff style of the NBA, and he has shown that he can make the outside shot, once he's in a rhythm..

[ThaBigFundamental21]

I would much rather have Ford run the point. He is just a much better facilitator and ball handler. They are both very streaky scorers. Neal is a deep guy, Ford more mid range and inside. Keep Neal shooting deep. Let Ford make everyone's life easier with the ball.

[The Truth #6]

I think it's interesting that Pop hasn't made up his mind yet. And no matter what Pop decides in a few weeks as his plan, it could easily get scrapped in the playoffs when things get hectic. So, I think Ford should still be given minutes. I think he deserves a chance. And if it's just to give more rest to Parker and let Neal play more at his natural position for a while then that's fine as well for the regular season.

I agree that Neal as backup PG can be exposed in the playoffs under pressure. Hopefully it won't happen but that's a concern for Neal, and if it happens it could throw off the rest of his game.

As for the extended rotation, I'm fine with Pop severely reducing RJ's minutes if he's horrible. It happened last year.

[TD 21]

It wouldn't really be Neal running the point. Technically he'd be the PG and he'd definitely defend the position, but really he'd be playing it in tandem with Ginobili. And let's face it, more often than not, Ginobili would be the primary ball handler/play maker with the second unit, just like he's always been.

He'll probably be playing that role anyway during the playoffs (so as to have at least one of him or Parker in at all times, blowouts withstanding), so it comes down to what you'd rather have next to him: a quality ball handler/play maker, who's a limited shooter, or a middling ball handler/play maker, who's a knockdown shooter. Neal is clearly the better fit. You don't need a true PG next to a play making SG. Play making SG's thrive with spot up shooting PG's next to them. There's numerous examples: Bryant with Fisher, Wade with Chalmers, Johnson with Bibby, Roy with Blake, Jordan with Kerr, etc.

[MaNu4Tres]

It wouldn't really be Neal running the point. Technically he'd be the PG and he'd definitely defend the position, but really he'd be playing it in tandem with Ginobili. And let's face it, more often than not, Ginobili would be the primary ball handler/play maker with the second unit, just like he's always been.

He'll probably be playing that role anyway during the playoffs (so as to have at least one of him or Parker in at all times, blowouts withstanding), so it comes down to what you'd rather have next to him: a quality ball handler/play maker, who's a limited shooter, or a middling ball handler/play maker, who's a knockdown shooter. Neal is clearly the better fit. You don't need a true PG next to a play making SG. Play making SG's thrive with spot up shooting PG's next to them. There's numerous examples: Bryant with Fisher, Wade with Chalmers, Johnson with Bibby, Roy with Blake, Jordan with Kerr, etc.

:tu

I don't understand how people don't understand this.

[TJastal]

I'd much rather see Neal starting. I think he's a much more valuable there as the team's starting SG than a watered down role he's not ideally suited for. Also, Danny Green is much better suited coming off the bench, so those two should be swapped. Danny Green has some point guard skills and could easily play this watered down role that you all are clamoring for Neal to play.

Just my 2 coppers.

[HarlemHeat37]

In all likelihood, Ford won't be a 100% for the playoffs..even if he is, he'll probably get hurt again, tbh, it has been the story of his career..

Danny Green should be the odd man out, on the perimeter, in the playoffs IMO..

It would be foolish for Pop to drop Leonard out of the rotation..his style of play should translate well to the playoff style of the NBA, and he has shown that he can make the outside shot, once he's in a rhythm..

Like I said, Ford is fragile, he's completely unreliable, as unfortunate as it is..

[pgardn]

I am still not sold that Neal and Ginobili are easy to pressure.

Manu is not back yet. His quickness has not returned yet. The Knicks made him look fairly quick tonight, but I still see his legs sorta buckle when he tries to explode. If his quickness is now at max., he has lost a whole bunch of it. And this means we dont go far in the playoffs.

Neal will not work at PG in the playoffs. Tony, TJ, and a leg-strong Manu, will.

[DAF86]

Danny Green should be the odd man out, on the perimeter, in the playoffs IMO..

It would be foolish for Pop to drop Leonard out of the rotation..his style of play should translate well to the playoff style of the NBA, and he has shown that he can make the outside shot, once he's in a rhythm..

I think Green's style of play would also translate well to the playoffs.

[TJastal]

I see Pop has a staff member reading spurstalk for my advice on lineup changes. :hat

[timvp]

The numbers are pretty equal between Neal at point guard and Ford at point guard so far this season.

Gary Neal at PG
101.59 points scored per 48 minutes
93.48 points allowed per 48 minutes
Sample Size: 159.7 minutes

TJ Ford at PG
96.00 points scored per 48 minutes
90.06 points allowed per 48 minutes
Sample Size: 145.5 minutes

So Neal allows 3.42 more points but the Spurs score 5.59 more points. And if any of those numbers look like a fluke, it's Ford's points allowed number -- he's not THAT good of a defender.

It isn't pretty when Neal runs backup point but it's productive and the Spurs won quite a few games with that alignment. Plus, with Ginobili back, it would make Neal's job a lot easier.

Add in Ford's injury status and I think the right choice is becoming clear . . .

[timvp]

Oh, and here's the clincher for me:

Tiago Splitter's stats with Neal
19.6 points per 40 minutes
.634 FG%
2.7 assists per 40 minutes

Tiago Splitter's stats with Ford
16.5 points per 40 minutes
.475 FG%
1.9 assists per 40 minutes

When Neal is the point guard, the offense runs through Splitter and Splitter takes full advantage. When Ford is the point guard, the offense runs through Ford. And while it's fun basketball to watch, it's just not conducive to the inside-out type of play that is needed to win in the postseason.

Ford's value is in playmaking but with Splitter spreading his wings and the return of Ginobili, the Spurs don't really need a playmaker in their second unit.

Now if Ginobili gets hurt again, begins to play exclusively with the starters or Splitter doesn't regain his pre-injury level of play, then the equation might change. But for now, I'm in the Neal camp.

[therealtruth]

I think the real advantage of having Neal and Ford is the flexibility. Being able to have different ways of running the offense can keep the defense on it toes. This also highlights what the team was missing with G. Hill at the backup pg. Neal's a better shooter and playmaker and Ford provides more playmaking than the team has had in years.

[SpurNation]

Oh, and here's the clincher for me:

Tiago Splitter's stats with Neal
19.6 points per 40 minutes
.634 FG%
2.7 assists per 40 minutes

Tiago Splitter's stats with Ford
16.5 points per 40 minutes
.475 FG%
1.9 assists per 40 minutes

When Neal is the point guard, the offense runs through Splitter and Splitter takes full advantage. When Ford is the point guard, the offense runs through Ford. And while it's fun basketball to watch, it's just not conducive to the inside-out type of play that is needed to win in the postseason.

Ford's value is in playmaking but with Splitter spreading his wings and the return of Ginobili, the Spurs don't really need a playmaker in their second unit.

Now if Ginobili gets hurt again, begins to play exclusively with the starters or Splitter doesn't regain his pre-injury level of play, then the equation might change. But for now, I'm in the Neal camp.

This is difficult for me to except. Even with the numbers. What I have to ask myself is....what are the numbers when Neal is playing the 2 compared to playing point? Didn't previous unit stats show that the team produced more efficiently with Neal in the 2G role than in the PG role?

I guess if the differences are in just splitting hairs...and if Ford will not be dependably healthy to play...and Ginobili remains coming off the bench...I wouldn't have an issue with Neal being the primary b/u at the point. But then Green becomes your starting 2G and that hasn't proven to be very effective in the starting line up.

Lots of avenues that can be traveled...which vehicle and road are the best to take?...being versatile may be the best way to prepare the rest of the season instead of planning too much on any single rotational pattern.

[Darkwaters]

Oh, and here's the clincher for me:

Tiago Splitter's stats with Neal
19.6 points per 40 minutes
.634 FG%
2.7 assists per 40 minutes

Tiago Splitter's stats with Ford
16.5 points per 40 minutes
.475 FG%
1.9 assists per 40 minutes

When Neal is the point guard, the offense runs through Splitter and Splitter takes full advantage. When Ford is the point guard, the offense runs through Ford. And while it's fun basketball to watch, it's just not conducive to the inside-out type of play that is needed to win in the postseason.

Ford's value is in playmaking but with Splitter spreading his wings and the return of Ginobili, the Spurs don't really need a playmaker in their second unit.

Now if Ginobili gets hurt again, begins to play exclusively with the starters or Splitter doesn't regain his pre-injury level of play, then the equation might change. But for now, I'm in the Neal camp.

Simply for the sake of argument, we have to understand the context in which your stats and figures are taken.

Ford's minutes are mostly taken from the very beginning of the season. At this time the team was more healthy (ie, Ginobili) but also was before some of the bench stand-outs of today had really begun their increased production. Namely: Splitter. It may be that Ford was actually holding Splitter back, but it also it equally likely that Splitter had not acclimated yet to an increased and consistent role on the team.

Additonally, Neal's minutes and figures are largely taken without Ginobili in the mix at all.

Make your own conclusions based on those points, but I think they warrant some consideration.

I personally think I prefer the idea of Neal running the point now, if only to keep the rotation reasonable. Of course, I'd also like to see Jefferson, Bonner and Blair all completely out of the playoff rotation....think that'll actually happen?