Spurs to offer Duncan at least $11M per year

[timvp]

In the latest Buck Harvey piece, he had an interesting tidbit about Tim Duncan and his future with the Spurs.


Then, against the Knicks, Duncan was workmanlike with 17 points and eight rebounds in a game that was never close. It was the kind of night, given his effectiveness, the Spurs can see being repeated for another two or three years.

Months ago during the lockout, before anyone was sure there was even going to be a season, the Spurs were already thinking about this summer. Duncan’s contract is something they have to get right, and they’ve already been trying to get a sense of what he deserves.

A starting point: More than half what Duncan was scheduled to earn this season.

This season, Duncan is making $21,164,619 ... so "more than half" makes it sound like the Spurs will begin the negotiations at around $11 million. In the recent thread about the rebuilding plans (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=191959), many Spurs fans said they wanted to sign Duncan to a cheaper contract than Harvey is describing here. I assume this news won't excite those fans.

When Bruno discussed the Spurs salaries (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=189690), he outlined how the Spurs could open up more than $17 million of cap room. If Duncan would have re-signed for around $5 million, the Spurs could have had room to throw a ton of money at a free agent. However, that does not appear to be the plan.

Personally, I'm fine with this news. (BTW, Harvey is extremely plugged in so this news is legit.) Duncan shouldn't have to take a massive cut in pay. Back in 2001, David Robinson got a contract that paid him $10 million per season. Add inflation to that figure and a comparable deal would start at about $12.4 million for Duncan. In fact, that may very well be the number the Spurs start at when opening negotiations.

If you're looking for a recent comparable, Jason Kidd got three years and $25 million at age 36. With that in mind and adding in what we know, a three-year, $38 million deal might work for both Duncan and the Spurs.

[chazley]

He deserves it, don't think anyone seriously was expecting him to sign for anywhere close to $5mil/season.

[DPG21920]

He's earned it. Let's hope they win it all this year.

[timvp]

He's earned it. Let's hope they win it all this year.

Now this time, you legitimately changed. :toast




BTW, my inflation math was a fail. It's actually closer to $12.8 million ... but point somewhat remains.

[DPG21920]

If this is true Spurs are in serious trouble from both a contention standpoint and rebuilding standpoint though. With only (seemingly at best based on this news) the MLE level money to work with, they can't address position of need likely (Lorbek perhaps?) & they are just good enough to compete for a mini playoff run (if healthy) so they won't get good draft picks.

[therealtruth]

There's no doubt he deserves it. I guess what it comes down to is if Tim really wants to win or not. The more cap space they can create the better it will help in getting free agents. If they're going to be over the cap anyway then they may as well pay him 11M.

[baseline bum]

Yeah, $12-$15 million per is about what I'd be looking to sign Tim for for the next 2-3 years (whichever he wants).

[baseline bum]

Assuming Dick gets amnestied, the Spurs should have full MLE this summer to grab a supporting player after bringing Tim back.

[Spursfanfromafar]

well..i thought $8-$12 was an optimal number, but $12.5 for 3 years for a basketball legend in his twilight is very well deserved.

Rebuilding/contention will not be affected that drastically next year. There are quite a few vets who can play for the minimum next year in order to win a championship. Plus Lorbek should be available for little..

[DPG21920]

Assuming Dick gets amnestied, the Spurs should have full MLE this summer to grab a supporting player after bringing Tim back.

MLE hasn't really proven to be enough for the Spurs to lure FA's (if so, RJ would be gone already)

[DPG21920]

well..i thought $8-$12 was an optimal number, but $12.5 for 3 years for a basketball legend in his twilight is very well deserved.

Rebuilding/contention will not be affected that drastically next year. There are quite a few vets who can play for the minimum next year in order to win a championship. Plus Lorbek should be available for little..

Disagree, especially about rebuilding.

[DPG21920]

Like I said I certainly won't be mad; disappointed is the word I guess. Knowing the Spurs goal is a title with the big 3 and that they've needed to add pretty significantly to their roster (as evidenced by their lack of a 2nd round win in a while), it makes the fact they will be really limited tough.

[Bruno]

If Spurs plan is to offer Duncan around $12M per year, the whole cap space plan is dead.

First, it makes the choice of not having picked James Anderson option even less understandable.
Second, it open more potential trades for Spurs at this trade deadline. With no concern about some future cap space, taking players without expiring contracts is way less problematic.

[TDMVPDPOY]

11m better come with targets man, thats just to much

spurs already given him a loyalty extention which his currently on 40-50m current contract....how much more loyalty are the FO going to continue to give b4 they start to rebuild...

oi timvp
if duncan resigns for 5m a season, leaves 17m in capspace without resignin green, neal? i think these 2 are going to get paid which bites into whatever capspace is needed to sign a really good FA

[chazley]

Between Duncan/Dick, Spurs will probably shave about $20 million off the books this summer. They've positioned themselves quite nicely to go out and find a middle-tier free agent that should help us, probably another big.

[silverblk mystix]

I know I will be in the minority here but...

Timmy is a shell of the player he once was...so if he gets as much money as you guys are quoting...it will be highway robbery. Timmy robbing the Spurs.

Does he deserve it?
Well...if you base it on what he has done in the past...then, of course, he does.

If you want to be honest and pay him what he is worth now and what his playing performance deserves....then he should only get about 5 mil a season...no more.

People can't be honest though...and people/fans will go by emotion and by what Timmy has done...but if you are real honest...you know that he is not a 12-14 million dollars a season player anymore.

He averages less than 20 & 10 ...plays a lot less minutes than he used to...looks gimpy most nights...has very little post game left...can't move his feet on defense...and needs to have a coach who strictly monitors his minutes...and you want to re-sign him to a large salary that will cripple the future of the team?

Be honest.

[TDMVPDPOY]

Between Duncan/Dick, Spurs will probably shave about $20 million off the books this summer. They've positioned themselves quite nicely to go out and find a middle-tier free agent that should help us, probably another big.

still need to resign neal and green man, and whoever in europe we bringin over like bertrans and lorbek...

[DPG21920]

Again, it's understandable & watching the big 3 is special so it's not all bad.

[DPG21920]

I know I will be in the minority here but...

Timmy is a shell of the player he once was...so if he gets as much money as you guys are quoting...it will be highway robbery. Timmy robbing the Spurs.

Does he deserve it?
Well...if you base it on what he has done in the past...then, of course, he does.

If you want to be honest and pay him what he is worth now and what his playing performance deserves....then he should only get about 5 mil a season...no more.

People can't be honest though...and people/fans will go by emotion and by what Timmy has done...but if you are real honest...you know that he is not a 12-14 million dollars a season player anymore.

He averages less than 20 & 10 ...plays a lot less minutes than he used to...looks gimpy most nights...has very little post game left...can't move his feet on defense...and needs to have a coach who strictly monitors his minutes...and you want to re-sign him to a large salary that will cripple the future of the team?

Be honest.

No offense, but I think this is dumb.

[silverblk mystix]

No offense, but I think this is dumb.

No offense taken...

I love Timmy as much as any Spur going back to Gervin....
but as much as I appreciate him and what he has done...he is nowhere near the player he once was...

If you can't see this...then emotion must be in the way.

[TDMVPDPOY]

Timmy is a shell of the player he once was...so if he gets as much money as you guys are quoting...it will be highway robbery. Timmy robbing the Spurs.

Does he deserve it?
Well...if you base it on what he has done in the past...then, of course, he does.

Be honest.

we already given him a loyalty contract which was the 40-50m extention his currently on....even though his current stats is still better then whatever bigs are out there who currently earn +10m, i dont think its justifiable for that much money.....

should we treat duncan as another commodity or loyalty player, at the end of the day its business

its time to start moving away from the big3 and building for the future post duncan

[DPG21920]

No offense taken...

I love Timmy as much as any Spur going back to Gervin....
but as much as I appreciate him and what he has done...he is nowhere near the player he once was...

If you can't see this...then emotion must be in the way.

It's not emotion when I say your assessment of his abilities are way off.

[HarlemHeat37]

Based on his numbers and value, Duncan is probably worth 8 or 9 mil/year..

[Spursfanfromafar]

Between chumps such as Kwame Brown who is paid $7 million, one trick ponies like DeAndre Jordan who are paid close to $10 million per year or Andris Biedrins ($9 million for doing nothing) or idiots such as Andray Blatche ($7 million for sucking), Tyrus Thomas ($8 million for riding the pine), Andrew Bogut ($12 million for playing a quarter-season every year).. I think Tim Duncan is still better than many or on par with some (Bogut) to be paid what he is rumoured to get next year.

B-ball reference will also tell you for e.g. that Kevin Garnett has earned close to $100 million more than Tim Duncan despite winning far less (and playing two more seasons).

[chazley]

still need to resign neal and green man, and whoever in europe we bringin over like bertrans and lorbek...

The salary cap next year is expected to be about $58mil.

If we say Duncan makes $11mil next year, Parker/gino make about $26mil combined, and rest of team makes about $11mil, we will have about $10 mil in cap space to sign a good big man. Names that could be available that we could sign:

Chris Kaman
Spencer Hawes
Omer Asik
Kris Humphries
Carl Landry
Antawn Jamison
Jason Thompson
Ersan Ilyasova

A bunch of other useful names as well that could be available for near-minimum salary.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Based on his numbers and value, Duncan is probably worth 8 or 9 mil/year..

Disagree. Statistically, he deserves as much as Tyson Chandler or Marc Gasol. When it comes to intangibles and leadership he puts both to shame, though.

[TDMVPDPOY]

Between chumps such as Kwame Brown who is paid $7 million, one trick ponies like DeAndre Jordan who are paid close to $10 million per year or Andris Biedrins ($9 million for doing nothing) or idiots such as Andray Blatche ($7 million for sucking), Tyrus Thomas ($8 million for riding the pine), Andrew Bogut ($12 million for playing a quarter-season every year).. I think Tim Duncan is still better than many or on par with some (Bogut) to be paid what he is rumoured to get next year.

B-ball reference will also tell you for e.g. that Kevin Garnett has earned close to $100 million more than Tim Duncan despite winning far less (and playing two more seasons).

those chumps u mention are overpaid due to market and supply of bigs, why doesnt the spurs just allow the market dictate whats duncan value is b4 they overpay him?

dont bring up KG career earnings to duncan, cause he benefited from previous old cba rules when he came into the league....

[DPG21920]

Between chumps such as Kwame Brown who is paid $7 million, one trick ponies like DeAndre Jordan who are paid close to $10 million per year or Andris Biedrins ($9 million for doing nothing) or idiots such as Andray Blatche ($7 million for sucking), Tyrus Thomas ($8 million for riding the pine), Andrew Bogut ($12 million for playing a quarter-season every year).. I think Tim Duncan is still better than many or on par with some (Bogut) to be paid what he is rumoured to get next year.

B-ball reference will also tell you for e.g. that Kevin Garnett has earned close to $100 million more than Tim Duncan despite winning far less (and playing two more seasons).

Agreed but Tim is still top 5 or 6 on the all time salary list so it's not like he's under paid.

[TDMVPDPOY]

Offer Tim 5M, resign Neal for a nice 4-year 27 mil contract or something like that. Amnesty Dick and we'll still have a little under 20 million to offer someone like a Howard. If Duncan refuses to resign for that amount he's not a team player and he can walk, I'm fine with that.

neal is not worth 4yr/27m man, or whatever the market decides to overpay him....

spurs should just match whatever team offers him b4 we overvalue his worth, same with green also...im certain there be teams chuckin stupid money offers since theres like 6-8 teams under the cap?

[HarlemHeat37]

Duncan is in the latter part of the top 10 Cs, anywhere from 4-10 IMO..

On average, excluding Roy Hibbert's rookie contract, the Cs in Duncan's tier average 11 million per season..(Horford, Noah, Nene, Gasol, Chandler, Gortat)..

Even ignoring the Spurs' title contention and future plans, Duncan's contract should consider his age and mileage..11 mil is the starting point, but considering the circumstances, 8 or 9 mil a year would be the proper compensation for Duncan's current production..

[baseline bum]

I know I will be in the minority here but...

Timmy is a shell of the player he once was...so if he gets as much money as you guys are quoting...it will be highway robbery. Timmy robbing the Spurs.

Does he deserve it?
Well...if you base it on what he has done in the past...then, of course, he does.

If you want to be honest and pay him what he is worth now and what his playing performance deserves....then he should only get about 5 mil a season...no more.

People can't be honest though...and people/fans will go by emotion and by what Timmy has done...but if you are real honest...you know that he is not a 12-14 million dollars a season player anymore.

He averages less than 20 & 10 ...plays a lot less minutes than he used to...looks gimpy most nights...has very little post game left...can't move his feet on defense...and needs to have a coach who strictly monitors his minutes...and you want to re-sign him to a large salary that will cripple the future of the team?

Be honest.

Considering Al Horford is making $12 million and Carlos Boozer $13.5 for similar stats, I don't see how the market value for Tim would be $5 million. The only big with similar efficiency stats (by game, not minute) and paid less than $10 million a year and not on a rookie scale deal is Varejao at $7.7 million (amazing that he seems underpaid now when that contract looked bad at signing). Tim could be a $5 million player in 2013-14, but he's definitely not that for next season.

[DPG21920]

Tim should get what he wants period. But if he would take a back loaded 3 year/25M that would be huge. Spurs, IMO need 8-10M in cap space.

[Dex]

Will the Spurs offer him that? Probably. The Spurs recognize what Tim has done for the franchise, and would pay him accordingly. After all...we know the Spurs are the classiest organization of all time. :hat

Would Duncan negotiate for less? I still think that's a good possibility.

Tim has obviously been paid well over his career, and has undoubtedly invested his money sensibly. He doesn't strike me as the flashy type, and living in a small market his entire career, with no state tax...I'm sure the dude already has a nice little nest egg.

That being said, Duncan is no dummy. He knows that the more money the Spurs have to spend on free agents, the better their chances are to win. If he is faced with the decision of going for a payday (say, the proposed $12M), or negotiating for something like $8-$9M, maybe back-load it, and having a better shot at the title...I'd wager he'd rather take the better chance to go out with a ring then he would the extra 3-4 mill per. I don't see him being the type to pull out the "well David made such-and-such" card.

Granted, I'm no millionaire, so I would never fault a guy for NOT wanting to give up millions of dollars. But even if it is just wishful thinking, one can always hope...

[baseline bum]

Dwight would laugh at that.

Dwight would laugh at $20 million in San Antonio too.

[DPG21920]

Holy :smokin

Spurs using Timvp to tell us there is a big trade coming. As Bruno pointed out, cap space isn't the goal; it's winning time

[Spursfanfromafar]

Agreed but Tim is still top 5 or 6 on the all time salary list so it's not like he's under paid.

No the argument is not that he is under-paid, but whether or not to pay him only by "market value". That will be under-selling him and his contribution to the Spurs.

It is not as if the Spurs will be doing him a favour by "overpaying him 3-4 millions more" per year. It will be for basketball reasons to do that. I don't know any one big man in the FA list who can be available for $12-15 mil next year who will significantly be better than Tim Duncan (and is also a realistic target for the Spurs - so lets rule out Dwight Howard).

As for the questions that you and Bruno raise, those are tougher ones and the more relevant ones - whether or not Tim Duncan will get the role player free agent he wants to keep contending for a championship while being paid $12 mil. I do think that there will be vets + Lorbek to help for 12-13, and then Manu's contract comes off the books and maybe thats where the Spurs will strike with a hotter iron in the FA market. (Assuming RJ is amnestied next season itself).

[TDMVPDPOY]

most teams only have MLE to play with and only a couple of teams are under the cap,

the teams under the cap i dont see them adding duncan at +10m to become a championship contender....when those teams have more holes to be filled then blowin it up signin one player on his last legs....do i see him leaving the spurs for whatever contending team throws the MLE at him? thats questionable

[timvp]

If you want to be honest and pay him what he is worth now and what his playing performance deserves....then he should only get about 5 mil a season...no more.What year do you live in? Kwame Brown just signed a $7 million contract this past summer. There's no way Duncan's value is $5 million. Let's be real.


He averages less than 20 & 10 :violin He averages less than 20 & 10 so he deserves $5 million?


Based on his numbers and value, Duncan is probably worth 8 or 9 mil/year..Who are you comparing him to to arrive at that $8 or 9 million number? Big Baby Davis? I can't agree with a number that equates Duncan's value to Kidd's value at the same age.

Ignoring the fact that Duncan wouldn't want to move and thus the built-in hometown discount, unless he gets injured or declines much further as the season progresses, there's no way that $12 million over a couple seasons is unfair value given the contracts currently handed out on an annual basis.

[DPG21920]

No the argument is not that he is under-paid, but whether or not to pay him only by "market value". That will be under-selling him and his contribution to the Spurs.

It is not as if the Spurs will be doing him a favour by "overpaying him 3-4 millions more" per year. It will be for basketball reasons to do that. I don't know any one big man in the FA list who can be available for $12-15 mil next year who will significantly be better than Tim Duncan (and is also a realistic target for the Spurs - so lets rule out Dwight Howard).

As for the questions that you and Bruno raise, those are tougher ones and the more relevant ones - whether or not Tim Duncan will get the role player free agent he wants to keep contending for a championship while being paid $12 mil. I do think that there will be vets + Lorbek to help for 12-13, and then Manu's contract comes off the books and maybe thats where the Spurs will strike with a hotter iron in the FA market. (Assuming RJ is amnestied next season itself).

You'd have to imagine the Spurs resign Manu if they sign Tim (if Manu is healthy and doesn't retire)

[Bruno]

Someone who might not be fine with Spurs giving that much money to Duncan, is Parker. When he signed his extension a year ago, a reason why he didn't try to get as much money as possible was to allow Spurs to sign new players. If Spurs use that extra money to give $13M for a 39 years old Duncan, it will be a big f u to Parker.

[Hoops Czar]

I was hoping somewhere between 8-9 mil. I guess 11 mil is about right but too much more than that, I start to get worried.

[timvp]

Offer Tim 5M, resign Neal for a nice 4-year 27 mil contract

:smchode:

[DPG21920]

Ignoring the fact that Duncan wouldn't want to move and thus the built-in hometown discount, unless he gets injured or declines much further as the season progresses, there's no way that $12 million over a couple seasons is unfair value given the contracts currently handed out on an annual basis.

To contend there is no doubt the Spurs need Tim. From that perspective (and the obvious perspective that you definitely want to keep him bc he's freaking Tim Duncan) he's easily worth 12-15M still.

It's simply a matter of if you are trying to contend, which by all accounts resigning Tim signals that, you need trades and/or cap space.

[TDMVPDPOY]

No the argument is not that he is under-paid, but whether or not to pay him only by "market value". That will be under-selling him and his contribution to the Spurs.

It is not as if the Spurs will be doing him a favour by "overpaying him 3-4 millions more" per year. It will be for basketball reasons to do that. I don't know any one big man in the FA list who can be available for $12-15 mil next year who will significantly be better than Tim Duncan (and is also a realistic target for the Spurs - so lets rule out Dwight Howard).

As for the questions that you and Bruno raise, those are tougher ones and the more relevant ones - whether or not Tim Duncan will get the role player free agent he wants to keep contending for a championship while being paid $12 mil. I do think that there will be vets + Lorbek to help for 12-13, and then Manu's contract comes off the books and maybe thats where the Spurs will strike with a hotter iron in the FA market. (Assuming RJ is amnestied next season itself).

why are we outpricing ourselves to resign duncan? let the market dictate his value, im certain those teams with capspace arent going to go out to chuck that +10m on duncan when they have more holes in their roster...i dont see duncan chasing the money to be on a bad team thats still a long way from contending

[Dex]

The roses are out, Tim! Not the daisies!

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Imagine if both Tim and Manu settle for like a backloaded 3yr/25 mil, we'll have enough to sign a superstar and another good player.

No, we won't.

[DPG21920]

Eyes talker going Hannibal Lector on timvp

[HarlemHeat37]

I explained my reasoning for the 8-9 million comment..

His production is worth around 10-11 million, at the moment, but we have yet to see how he'll hold up for the playoffs..going into the off-season, it must be assumed that Duncan will further decline, next season..I feel like 8-9 million is reasonable, as it would also benefit the team's pursuit for a free agent, albeit not a major difference..

Duncan's current numbers are nice(ignoring his atrocious shooting %s and WP/48, IIRC), but we have yet to reach the playoff grind..

[DPG21920]

I explained my reasoning for the 8-9 million comment..

His production is worth around 10-11 million, at the moment, but we have yet to see how he'll hold up for the playoffs..going into the off-season, it must be assumed that Duncan will further decline, next season..I feel like 8-9 million is reasonable, as it would also benefit the team's pursuit for a free agent, albeit not a major difference..

Disagree. The difference in ~5M & 9M is significant to the Spurs.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Do you really think Neal doesn't have it in his head that he's at the very least a borderline all star?

Borderline all-star?

First of all, Neal is not a free agent. And then, barring a miraculous playoff showing this and/or next season, he'd be lucky to get a 3 year / 12 million contract.

[HarlemHeat37]

Disagree. The difference in ~5M & 9M is significant to the Spurs.

I agree that Duncan should take as little as possible, tbh..

At this point, rings and his legacy >> money..

[timvp]

It's difficult to find comparable contracts but here's one:

Karl Malone at the same age signed a four-year contract worth $67 million. And that was back in 1999. Add inflation ... that's like $90 million today. So Malone gets $22.5 million per year but Duncan isn't worth $8 million or whatever it is some Spurs fans are saying.

[Darkwaters]

Offer Tim 5M, resign Neal for a nice 4-year 27 mil contract

:rollin

First off, Gary Neal is NOT a free agent. I'm not sure how many times that point will have to be made on this board before it sinks in.

Danny Green IS a free agent, in case you care.

So your plan is to low ball Tim Duncan with 5M a year but then overpay tremendously for Neal? Theres no world that Neal is worth 6.75M per year.

[TDMVPDPOY]

It's difficult to find comparable contracts but here's one:

Karl Malone at the same age signed a four-year contract worth $67 million. And that was back in 1999. Add inflation that like $90 million today. So Malone gets $22.5 million per year but Duncan isn't worth $8 million or whatever it is some Spurs fans are saying.

why u comparing contracts signed today to franchise players of the 90s who were underpaid, where franchises gave them a loyalty contract cause they were underpaid for a number of years when the nba was not a big money machine as today...jordans last bulls contract is another example when he was paid shit all while being the best player in the nba in the early 90s

[DPG21920]

Most aren't saying "he isn't worth it", at least not me. It's about context and winning. I will not be mad at him for getting 15M a year; I'll be disappointed knowing there is 0 chance at winning because of it. I'll feel like DoK towards Nash tbh.

":cry great f*cking hero Nash :cry staying with a team with 0 expectations for lots of money just so you don't have to try and actually win a title"

[DPG21920]

Actually DoK is raging :lol so not a good analogy.

[TDMVPDPOY]

So your plan is to low ball Tim Duncan with 5M a year but then overpay tremendously for Neal? Theres no world that Neal is worth 6.75M per year.

i lowball duncan MLE type deal, or match whatever offers he gets in FA if its under 10m....

the teams with money are not favourable destinations to uproot and reallocate to play for pretenders

[TDMVPDPOY]

Most aren't saying "he isn't worth it", at least not me. It's about context and winning. I will not be mad at him for getting 15M a year; I'll be disappointed knowing there is 0 chance at winning because of it. I'll feel like DoK towards Nash tbh.

":cry great f*cking hero Nash :cry staying with a team with 0 expectations for lots of money just so you don't have to try and actually win a title"

steve nash is the money maker and attraction whatever sarver needs to keep the fans coming in when he has a shit team out there....

[DPG21920]

If the options are pay Tim 15M or let him walk, it's a no brainer you pay him. ^

[HarlemHeat37]

It's difficult to find comparable contracts but here's one:

Karl Malone at the same age signed a four-year contract worth $67 million. And that was back in 1999. Add inflation ... that's like $90 million today. So Malone gets $22.5 million per year but Duncan isn't worth $8 million or whatever it is some Spurs fans are saying.

Different circumstances and era..

Up until that point, Karl Malone had never been paid more than 6 million a year..loyalty contract under the new era of NBA money..

I wouldn't have advocated signing Malone to that kind of money, either, it's overpaying for his production..

Also, Malone at that age >> Duncan, at the moment..

[timvp]

Duncan's current numbers are nice(ignoring his atrocious shooting %s and WP/48, IIRC), but we have yet to reach the playoff grind..

Speaking of stats and contracts, the going rate in free agency is about $2 million per WARP (Wins Above Replacement Player). Here are Duncan's WARP numbers over the years:

2006: 17.4
2007: 21.2
2008: 17.7
2009: 17.5
2010: 17.2
2011: 12.2
2012: 11.7 (projected obviously)

So even if his level of play drops off considerably, his economic worth according to the standards of the NBA open market will still very likely clear $12 million in the coming years. This season he hasn't been great but he has a legit chance to be worth more than the $21 million the Spurs are paying him.

[Hoops Czar]

It's difficult to find comparable contracts but here's one:

Karl Malone at the same age signed a four-year contract worth $67 million. And that was back in 1999. Add inflation ... that's like $90 million today. So Malone gets $22.5 million per year but Duncan isn't worth $8 million or whatever it is some Spurs fans are saying.
Production beats out age everytime. You don't base a contract on the past. You try to base it on he will bring to you in the future. Karl Malone in that 4 year span was putting up all-star caliber numbers

99 - 00 25.5/9.5 35.9 minutes
00 - 01 23.2/8.3 35.7
01 - 02 22.4/8.6 38.0
02 - 03 20.6/7.8 36.2

Duncan is slowly deteriorating and while he's still productive, can't compete with those numbers.

[therealtruth]

If the options are pay Tim 15M or let him walk, it's a no brainer you pay him. ^

I think the Spurs have some leverage. It's doubtful he would want to play for someone else.

[Spur|n|Austin]

Offer Tim 5M, resign Neal for a nice 4-year 27 mil contract or something like that. Amnesty Dick and we'll still have a little under 20 million to offer someone like a Howard. If Duncan refuses to resign for that amount he's not a team player and he can walk, I'm fine with that.

:rolleyes

[timvp]

As a Spurs fan, I hope Duncan takes $1 million. If I'm the Spurs front office, I probably offer something lower than $11 million to start off with just to gauge his interest. In a strictly business sense, giving an aging player big money is obviously risky. In a vacuum, I might advocate the Spurs hardballing Duncan.

All that said though, if the argument is what Duncan's current level of play is actually worth and what his worth is likely to be over the next couple seasons, it's pretty damn difficult to make a case that he's worth less than $12 million per year.

[TDMVPDPOY]

So even if his level of play drops off considerably, his economic worth according to the standards of the NBA open market will still very likely clear $12 million in the coming years. This season he hasn't been great but he has a legit chance to be worth more than the $21 million the Spurs are paying him.

in the open market his worth more then 10, but not many teams are going to throw that +10m at him if it doesnt improve them to become legit contenders...i dont want to see management overpaying for duncan and crippling the teams paycap for next 3-4 years (just like RJ OVER evaluation)

most of the contenders only have MLE to play with
scrub teams with capspace are still scrub teams with duncan with no shot at winning unless duncan turns back the clock
dallas i dont see them chasing duncan if they are chasing deron and dwight, unless they missed out on d12, are they going to chase after duncan? theres still KG i think whose also on the market....

[therealtruth]

Production beats out age everytime. You don't base a contract on the past. You try to base it on he will bring to you in the future. Karl Malone in that 4 year span was putting up all-star caliber numbers

99 - 00 25.5/9.5 35.9 minutes
00 - 01 23.2/8.3 35.7
01 - 02 22.4/8.6 38.0
02 - 03 20.6/7.8 36.2

Duncan is slowly deteriorating and while he's still productive, can't compete with those numbers.

It's hard to put a price on intangibles and loyalty but you can put a price on production.

[Snow]

Offer Tim 5M, resign Neal for a nice 4-year 27 mil contractor something like that. Amnesty Dick and we'll still have a little under 20 million to offer someone like a Howard. If Duncan refuses to resign for that amount he's not a team player and he can walk, I'm fine with that.
:vomit:
Resign Gary Neal for 7 mil a year? You lost your damn mind... unless your his agent

[therealtruth]

I think it might come down to if the Spurs can show TD they can get him some quality big man help he might be more willing to accept less.

[timvp]

Production beats out age everytime. You don't base a contract on the past. You try to base it on he will bring to you in the future. Karl Malone in that 4 year span was putting up all-star caliber numbers
But there was no way for the Jazz to know Malone would continue to put up those big regular season numbers. There was no precedent of a power forward being able to play that well in the regular season at that age. For all the Jazz knew, they were giving Malone $67 million to watch him fall off a cliff like 99% of bigmen his age.

[TDMVPDPOY]

Duncan is slowly deteriorating and while he's still productive, can't compete with those numbers.

it was wrong to compare to previous players under different cba rules

then some clowns on here comparing duncan to what chumps in todays league earns......

WE shouldnt overpay cause teams overpaid, spurs still hold the trump card in the leverage for duncans new deal..

[Gutter92]

A shell of his former self, sure...but 13/11/3/3 in the playoffs vs. a very physical team deserves more than 5 mill a year...I wouldn't be surprised to see 16/11/3/2 in the playoffs this year from Duncan...which, when you take loyalty + that into account, has to be worth more than 5mill...show me a player the Spurs could get for 6-7 mill that could put up better than that?

[Gutter92]

Also, can't be serious with the "resign Duncan for 5mill, give Neal almost 7mill a year for 4 years...wtf?

[chazley]

As a Spurs fan, I hope Duncan takes $1 million. If I'm the Spurs front office, I probably offer something lower than $11 million to start off with just to gauge his interest. In a strictly business sense, giving an aging player big money is obviously risky. In a vacuum, I might advocate the Spurs hardballing Duncan.

All that said though, if the argument is what Duncan's current level of play is actually worth and what his worth is likely to be over the next couple seasons, it's pretty damn difficult to make a case that he's worth less than $12 million per year.

Wow, hard to believe you wrote this post timvp.

[timvp]

spurs still hold the trump card in the leverage for duncans new deal..

Nah, the trump card is Duncan saying: "Shortchange me and I'll go win a couple championships with the Miami Heat while being a hop, skip and jump away from St. Croix. Meanwhile, Spurs fans will boycott the team like after George Gervin left when they hear how little you offered me to stay despite all those championship trophies I brought to San Antonio."

That, my friend, is game, set and match if Duncan wants to actually negotiate. With that leverage, Duncan basically can get whatever he wants, tbh. If Duncan leaves in a messy way, the franchise value depreciation alone would be a lot more than whatever money the Spurs "save" by letting Duncan walk.

[Hoops Czar]

But there was no way for the Jazz to know Malone would continue to put up those big regular season numbers. There was no precedent of a power forward being able to play that well in the regular season at that age. For all the Jazz knew, they were giving Malone $67 million to watch him fall off a cliff like 99% of bigmen his age.

Absolutely the truth. That may have been a disjointed contract, but one thing Malone had going for him that Duncan does not was his health. I still feel the Spurs have to take Duncan's health into consideration when they sign him to his next contract.

[Libri]

Nah, the trump card is Duncan saying: "Shortchange me and I'll go win a couple championships with the Miami Heat while being a hop, skip and jump away from St. Croix. Meanwhile, Spurs fans will boycott the team like after George Gervin left when they hear how little you offered me to stay despite all those championship trophies I brought to San Antonio."

That, my friend, is game, set and match if Duncan wants to actually negotiate. With that leverage, Duncan basically can get whatever he wants, tbh. If Duncan leaves in a messy way, the franchise value depreciation alone would be a lot more than whatever money the Spurs "save" by letting Duncan walk.

How much do you think he could get with another team, $15 million?

[Chase_the_Bass]

Nah, the trump card is Duncan saying: "Shortchange me and I'll go win a couple championships with the Miami Heat while being a hop, skip and jump away from St. Croix. Meanwhile, Spurs fans will boycott the team like after George Gervin left when they hear how little you offered me to stay despite all those championship trophies I brought to San Antonio."

That, my friend, is game, set and match if Duncan wants to actually negotiate. With that leverage, Duncan basically can get whatever he wants, tbh. If Duncan leaves in a messy way, the franchise value depreciation alone would be a lot more than whatever money the Spurs "save" by letting Duncan walk.

Why would you even say that?

:cry:

[therealtruth]

But there was no way for the Jazz to know Malone would continue to put up those big regular season numbers. There was no precedent of a power forward being able to play that well in the regular season at that age. For all the Jazz knew, they were giving Malone $67 million to watch him fall off a cliff like 99% of bigmen his age.

Malone had an excellent work ethic and kept his body in peak condition. He also had really good durability record. He could have probably kept playing past 40.

[TDMVPDPOY]

Nah, the trump card is Duncan saying: "Shortchange me and I'll go win a couple championships with the Miami Heat while being a hop, skip and jump away from St. Croix. Meanwhile, Spurs fans will boycott the team like after George Gervin left when they hear how little you offered me to stay despite all those championship trophies I brought to San Antonio."

That, my friend, is game, set and match if Duncan wants to actually negotiate. With that leverage, Duncan basically can get whatever he wants, tbh. If Duncan leaves in a messy way, the franchise value depreciation alone would be a lot more than whatever money the Spurs "save" by letting Duncan walk.

i assume ur not ready for post duncan or big3 .....i dont want to pay big money for the 3 either when that money is better of spending on someone to be next franchise player of the spurs, while the big3 accept whatever paydeal to become role/bench players

[therealtruth]

Nah, the trump card is Duncan saying: "Shortchange me and I'll go win a couple championships with the Miami Heat while being a hop, skip and jump away from St. Croix. Meanwhile, Spurs fans will boycott the team like after George Gervin left when they hear how little you offered me to stay despite all those championship trophies I brought to San Antonio."

That, my friend, is game, set and match if Duncan wants to actually negotiate. With that leverage, Duncan basically can get whatever he wants, tbh. If Duncan leaves in a messy way, the franchise value depreciation alone would be a lot more than whatever money the Spurs "save" by letting Duncan walk.

He would still be shortchanging himself because the Heat can only offer him the vet minimum.

[Rapper]

As the No1 die-heart fan of Timmy in Asia I really hope that Timmy could earn as much as the spurs could offer him . but on the other hand. just think about it Timmy is turning to 37 years old next year and still get more than 12 million per year is kinda unreasonable. If my memory serves me there is no big man in the league who is over 37 years old can still get 12 -15 million per year .

Basically Timmy still deserves a 3 years contract of 30 million that is what the spurs could offer him in terms of rebuilding the team 2 years later.

just imagine that if Timmy just gets 10 million next season as well as the spurs use their amensty provision to deal with RJ they would have a ton of moeny in free agency.

[timvp]

How much do you think he could get with another team, $15 million?I don't know the particulars of which teams have salary cap space but I'd imagine a middle of the road contender would love to rent Duncan for a couple of seasons while they wait to clear even more salary cap space at a later date. Teams that fit that description would be the Denvers, Philadelphias and Indianas of the league. If you're one of those teams and can't land a legit, young max player, why not throw money at Duncan over two years? That's a lot less risky that throwing money at a player who might not be worth max money on a long-term deal.


Why would you even say that?

:cry::lol Wasn't fun to consider but that's for anyone who thinks the Spurs have leverage over Duncan when it comes to his next contract.


i assume ur not ready for post duncan or big3What part of that post made you think I'm not ready? I was just explaining why the Spurs don't have leverage.


Malone had an excellent work ethic, used steroids and kept his body in peak condition. He also had really good durability record. He could have probably kept playing past 40.That's cool to know in retrospect but when the Jazz gave Malone that contract, no power forward in NBA history had ever posted a PER better than 18 past age 36. Again, the Jazz had no way to know Malone wouldn't be worthless within a year of giving him that deal. Malone wasn't the first player to stay in shape.


He would still be shortchanging himself because the Heat can only offer him the vet minimum.The threat isn't to make more money, it's to go somewhere to win championships while being closer to home. When Robinson decided to negotiate, he brought up going to the Knicks even though New York couldn't have given him much money.

[TDMVPDPOY]

The threat isn't to make more money, it's to go somewhere to win championships while being closer to home. When Robinson decided to negotiate, he brought up going to the Knicks even though New York couldn't have given him much money.

but spurs shouldnt put themselves in a position where they overpay him just because some team decides to overpay him, i dont care what other chumps get paid which teams made mistakes overpaying and crippling their organization to contend...

if we ooverpay him and still manage to win rings, then no one will say anything, but if we dont win and continue to be a regular season team pretender in the playoffs, then whats the point?

[Chase_the_Bass]

i assume ur not ready for post duncan or big3 .....i dont want to pay big money for the 3 either when that money is better of spending on someone to be next franchise player of the spurs, while the big3 accept whatever paydeal to become role/bench players

I'm kinda excited to see what the FO does when we rebuild for real. I'm just worried that we don't tank a season for a great draft pick and fall into the good but not great purgatory.

[venitian navigator]

Frankly, after the 21 millions year contract we are gonna pay him this year, going on his over 36, and after (probably) some healthy investiments and a more than decent money coming from advertisement, Timmy could decide just to play for peanuts giving to the F.O. the chance to join another star or at least a very good player for increasing the chances of onother (or some other) title.
After all, that should be his main goal, meaning the "number" he could reach in the all time players standings...
Remembering that, if till now, he's considered the best PF ever, in time, also this "title" could be put in danger considering the stats (Malone hes been the second all time scoring player, and tim will never have the chance to join his numbers), and the most important stat that Tim can show is the numbers of titles he won...still playing an important part on the same team.
So, imho, this is the perspective he should have going in negotiations with the FO...the more time pass, the more the goals of Tim and the FO should be the same : winning the most titles possible.

That said, another thing that will be decisive to consider in such relationship, is what kind of player(s) the FO would like to add and could be able to attract...

[SpurNation]

Duncan is in the latter part of the top 10 Cs, anywhere from 4-10 IMO..

On average, excluding Roy Hibbert's rookie contract, the Cs in Duncan's tier average 11 million per season..(Horford, Noah, Nene, Gasol, Chandler, Gortat)..

Even ignoring the Spurs' title contention and future plans, Duncan's contract should consider his age and mileage..11 mil is the starting point, but considering the circumstances, 8 or 9 mil a year would be the proper compensation for Duncan's current production..

This!! At the end of the day...it's still a business...the team still needs future talent...can't get talent unless you have "enough" money to spend.

Duncan making 8 to 9 mil per is more than adequate for both loyalty of the past and the team's reality for the future. I'd even like it more if it were 7 to 8 but add an extra year with last year not fully guaranteed. ae: 9 x 3 = 27 or 8 x 4 = 32

[TDMVPDPOY]

This!! At the end of the day...it's still a business...the team still needs future talent...can't get talent unless you have "enough" money to spend.

Duncan making 8 to 9 mil per is more than adequate for both loyalty of the past and the team's reality for the future. I'd even like it more if it were 7 to 8 but add an extra year with last year not fully guaranteed. ae: 9 x 3 = 27 or 8 x 4 = 32

i think this is the correct deal with each year a player option or a guranteed contract with no team option....this allows him to call it quits when he feels it time without harming the organization payroll commitments

[4lifecowboy]

No offense taken...

I love Timmy as much as any Spur going back to Gervin....
but as much as I appreciate him and what he has done...he is nowhere near the player he once was...

If you can't see this...then emotion must be in the way.

Going back to your logic he is more than a 1/4th of the player he "was". I would go as far as to say more than half the player he use to be. So compensation should be just IMO.

[SpurNation]

Going back to your logic he is more than a 1/4th of the player he "was". I would go as far as to say more than half the player he use to be. So compensation should be just IMO.

Then contract accordingly? 12/9/6 over the next 3 years? Last year not fully guaranteed.

[flox]

I'm no genius like the rest of these fine fellows here at ST are, but...


Why can't we offer a nice contract, but then, like in baseball, offer him a personal services contract in addition to the basketball one?

I think SpursCo, if possible, should consider this if possible, because a long term, lucrative personal services contract could most likely cause a pretty nice reduction in the basketball contract number, and given how much Timmy's done for the Spurs I think something like that would be something that's due for him as well as something that we should fulfill.

It also provides for the ultimate in long term security, which should be a nice appeal.

[therealtruth]

Frankly, after the 21 millions year contract we are gonna pay him this year, going on his over 36, and after (probably) some healthy investiments and a more than decent money coming from advertisement, Timmy could decide just to play for peanuts giving to the F.O. the chance to join another star or at least a very good player for increasing the chances of onother (or some other) title.
After all, that should be his main goal, meaning the "number" he could reach in the all time players standings...
Remembering that, if till now, he's considered the best PF ever, in time, also this "title" could be put in danger considering the stats (Malone hes been the second all time scoring player, and tim will never have the chance to join his numbers), and the most important stat that Tim can show is the numbers of titles he won...still playing an important part on the same team.
So, imho, this is the perspective he should have going in negotiations with the FO...the more time pass, the more the goals of Tim and the FO should be the same : winning the most titles possible.

That said, another thing that will be decisive to consider in such relationship, is what kind of player(s) the FO would like to add and could be able to attract...

You can make the argument he isn't worth 21M this season so the FO would be entitled to some discount on the next contract.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

I'm no genius like the rest of these fine fellows here at ST are, but...


Why can't we offer a nice contract, but then, like in baseball, offer him a personal services contract in addition to the basketball one?

I think SpursCo, if possible, should consider this if possible, because a long term, lucrative personal services contract could most likely cause a pretty nice reduction in the basketball contract number, and given how much Timmy's done for the Spurs I think something like that would be something that's due for him as well as something that we should fulfill.

It also provides for the ultimate in long term security, which should be a nice appeal.

From circa 2001 :

'The National Basketball Association today announced that Commissioner David Stern has taken the following actions based upon an arbitrator's ruling on Monday that the Minnesota Timberwolves, Joe Smith, and agent Eric Fleisher entered into a secret agreement in violation of the NBA's salary cap rules:

directed the forfeiture of Minnesota's own first-round draft picks in the 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004 and 2005 NBA Drafts;

fined the team $3.5 million; and

voided the player contract between Smith and the Timberwolves for the 2000-01 season, along with all contracts previously entered into by Smith and the team.

In addition to these penalties, the Collective Bargaining Agreement also authorizes the Commissioner to suspend team personnel who were involved in the making of the secret agreement. Those suspensions will be determined after subsequent proceedings before the arbitrator.'

[SpurNation]

Nah, the trump card is Duncan saying: "Shortchange me and I'll go win a couple championships with the Miami Heat while being a hop, skip and jump away from St. Croix. Meanwhile, Spurs fans will boycott the team like after George Gervin left when they hear how little you offered me to stay despite all those championship trophies I brought to San Antonio."

That, my friend, is game, set and match if Duncan wants to actually negotiate. With that leverage, Duncan basically can get whatever he wants, tbh. If Duncan leaves in a messy way, the franchise value depreciation alone would be a lot more than whatever money the Spurs "save" by letting Duncan walk.

That's harsh and crude...and unfortunately...reality.

I see the point you're trying to make but don't think it would come to such measures. I believe both Duncan and the Spurs are higher in integrity than pulling that card.

A fair and approving assessment I'm sure will be achieved with Duncan getting his proper due and the Spurs being allowed to fiscally plan for the future.

Besides that...St. Croix is only a quick plane flight away...:toast

[mountainballer]

first off, I think the worst method to figure out what "a player deserves" is to compare to other contracts. you will always find that one contract to back up your position, whatever your position may be.
a 34 years old Charles Barkley, coming off a 19 pts / 13 rebounds / 5 assits all star season took a paycut of almost -60% in 1997. what does this tell us for the TD situation?
absolutely nothing. just that we won't find the "accurate" number for Tim by looking at the last contracts of other legends, be it Malone or be it Barkley.

[dbestpro]

With all of the salary numbers being tossed around by various players the one thing that strikes me is that the new salary structure really changes the outcome.

12 mil for TD under the old system may be okay, but who would really pay him more than 10 mil knowing what it would do to the rest of a team's salary structure. Just like the rest of us, there just is not as much money to go around.

[100%duncan]

I know I will be in the minority here but...

Timmy is a shell of the player he once was...so if he gets as much money as you guys are quoting...it will be highway robbery. Timmy robbing the Spurs.

Does he deserve it?
Well...if you base it on what he has done in the past...then, of course, he does.

If you want to be honest and pay him what he is worth now and what his playing performance deserves....then he should only get about 5 mil a season...no more.

People can't be honest though...and people/fans will go by emotion and by what Timmy has done...but if you are real honest...you know that he is not a 12-14 million dollars a season player anymore.

He averages less than 20 & 10 ...plays a lot less minutes than he used to...looks gimpy most nights...has very little post game left...can't move his feet on defense...and needs to have a coach who strictly monitors his minutes...and you want to re-sign him to a large salary that will cripple the future of the team?

Be honest.
very little post game left-wrong
gimpy most nights- c'mon?
can't move his feet on defense- you kidding? he's the only person making our D watchable
needs a coach.....-haven't you noticed it? it's always the coaches' job to do that, hell, no player says "ok im done for the night", "maybe imma play a little more"

emotions maybe in the way. but your post is stupid

[100%duncan]

Imagine if both Tim and Manu settle for like a backloaded 3yr/25 mil, we'll have enough to sign a superstar and another good player.

dwight would laugh at your comments

[100%duncan]

tbh, I just can't read all these posts saying 11 mil is overpaying him. It's not about loyalty dude, lets all get real other bigs that come close to his stats/average get paid more than him and bigs who do shit like timvp said get something close to his like 9-10 mil per year. And you call tim overpaid?

[Seventyniner]

Is the over-36 rule in the new CBA? If not, the Spurs could just give Duncan something like 7 years, $37 million. If the over-36 rule is still in place, though, would someone mind explaining it to me? I know it would bring much of that salary forward in this 7/37 case, but I don't know exactly how it works.

[benefactor]

in the open market his worth more then 10, but not many teams are going to throw that +10m at him if it doesnt improve them to become legit contenders...i dont want to see management overpaying for duncan and crippling the teams paycap for next 3-4 years (just like RJ OVER evaluation)

I don't really have good words to say how dumb this fucking take is. You seem to hit new levels every time I log in.

You pay Tim Duncan...period. Saying stupid shit like the above drivel is a slap in the face of a player that made this team what it is today. He is the franchise, no matter how old he is. Stop fucking looking at him from role player/production = worth standpoint and remember what he has done for this city and this team. Who gives a shit if the Spurs can't contend over the next few seasons? He's Tim Duncan. Tim. Fucking. Duncan.

Pay him.

[urunobili]

I think TD will suggest less to get a huge free agent and get a chance to win big TBH. He deserves 15 IMO, but i think he'll ask something int he ball park of 8 so that they can still be a force.

[TDMVPDPOY]

I don't really have good words to say how dumb this fucking take is. You seem to hit new levels every time I log in.

You pay Tim Duncan...period. Saying stupid shit like the above drivel is a slap in the face of a player that made this team what it is today. He is the franchise, no matter how old he is. Stop fucking looking at him from role player/production = worth standpoint and remember what he has done for this city and this team. Who gives a shit if the Spurs can't contend over the next few seasons? He's Tim Duncan. Tim. Fucking. Duncan.

Pay him.

he is already on a loyalty contract, at what point in time are you going to stop paying the loyalty card? if duncan was playin pass 40yrs old and still avg 13/9 cause the league has shit all at center/pf as competition, u going to pay him according to what the chumps at his position are also gettin paid??

u know how bad the league is when gimps on their last legs are posting up better numbers then the younger players at their position in the league who are gettin paid todays market rate base on now and future potential to retain talent, gimps asking the same type of money....


at the end of the day, its not what the team can do for you, but what can you do for the team

[Horse]

He's finding different ways to get it done, he's never been super athletic so no reason to think he can't be effective for 2 or 3 more seasons.

[Wild Cobra Kai]

Do you really think Neal doesn't have it in his head that he's at the very least a borderline all star?

I'm betting he doesn't see himself as such. After all, he wasn't even selected to the Rising Stars game as a sophomore. Gary Neal is a solid NBA rotation player. There are only 24 All Stars in any given year out of ~360 players. Not the same thing at all.

[benefactor]

he is already on a loyalty contract, at what point in time are you going to stop paying the loyalty card? if duncan was playin pass 40yrs old and still avg 13/9 cause the league has shit all at center/pf as competition, u going to pay him according to what the chumps at his position are also gettin paid??

He's not on a loyalty contract, you dumb bastard. His initial deal was signed in 2003 and he got the extension in November of 2007...right after the Spurs won a fucking championship.


u know how bad the league is when gimps on their last legs are posting up better numbers then the younger players at their position in the league who are gettin paid todays market rate base on now and future potential to retain talent, gimps asking the same type of money....


at the end of the day, its not what the team can do for you, but what can you do for the team
He did it for the team...4 times to be exact...so your spoiled ass could still be a fan. He gets whatever he wants.

[Mel_13]

You pay Tim Duncan...period.

Exactly.


he is already on a loyalty contract

Not true.


C'mon people. There's really only one relevant question in this matter:

Does Tim Duncan want to continue playing beyond the end of this season?

If the answer to that question is yes, then the Spurs will want him and they'll pay him.

http://www.nba.com/spurs/tickets/2012_season_ticket_renewals_home

[100%duncan]

He's not on a loyalty contract, you dumb bastard. His initial deal was signed in 2003 and he got the extension in November of 2007...right after the Spurs won a fucking championship.

He did it for the team...4 times to be exact...so your spoiled ass could still be a fan. He gets whatever he wants.

yeah how can that brainfart call it a loyalty contract just after spurs won the fucking title. Bene is right. He is TIM FUCKING DUNCAN. PAY HIM.

[TDMVPDPOY]

He's not on a loyalty contract, you dumb bastard. His initial deal was signed in 2003 and he got the extension in November of 2007...right after the Spurs won a fucking championship.

He did it for the team...4 times to be exact...so your spoiled ass could still be a fan. He gets whatever he wants.

then what do you call the 40m contract extention his currently on? if that aint a loyalty contract, then what is it?

heres his career nba salary
1997-98 $2,967,840
1998-99 $3,413,000
1999-00 $3,858,240 rookie deal expire
2000-01 $9,660,000 signs 30/3 extention
2001-02 $10,865,250
2002-03 $12,072,500
2003-04 $12,676,125 signs max deal
2004-05 $14,260,641
2005-06 $15,845,156
2006-07 $17,429,672
2007-08 $19,014,188
2008-09 33 $20,598,704
2009-10 34 $22,183,220 signs 2 year extention 40/2
2010-11 35 $18,700,000
2011-12 36 $21,300,000

[Mel_13]

then what do you call the 40-50m contract extention his currently on?

Do you even read the posts that you quote?

You'll find the answer to your question there.

[temujin]

I love how fans are outraged if Duncan adds a "mere" 15M, and not the 38M "he deserves" to the 150M he must have earned in his career.

He could probably buy the Spurs, by now, so that's not even wealth redistribution.

I wonder how many of these fans are making more than 0.05 M per year.

[jag]

Someone who might not be fine with Spurs giving that much money to Duncan, is Parker. When he signed his extension a year ago, a reason why he didn't try to get as much money as possible was to allow Spurs to sign new players. If Spurs use that extra money to give $13M for a 39 years old Duncan, it will be a big f u to Parker.

Duncan's interests come before Parker's interests.

Parker can get over it.

[jag]

Nah, the trump card is Duncan saying: "Shortchange me and I'll go win a couple championships with the Miami Heat while being a hop, skip and jump away from St. Croix. Meanwhile, Spurs fans will boycott the team like after George Gervin left when they hear how little you offered me to stay despite all those championship trophies I brought to San Antonio."

That, my friend, is game, set and match if Duncan wants to actually negotiate. With that leverage, Duncan basically can get whatever he wants, tbh. If Duncan leaves in a messy way, the franchise value depreciation alone would be a lot more than whatever money the Spurs "save" by letting Duncan walk.

:(

[100%duncan]

then what do you call the 40m contract extention his currently on?

man the answer is on the fuckin question that you fuckin quoted

[jag]

man the answer is on the fuckin question that you fuckin quoted

Easy, brah...

[SenorSpur]

That sounds about right and of course, there's no question that Duncan has been and is worth the money. I'm not so much worried about the Spurs having a ton of cash to throw at potential free agents because we all know that it's highly unlikely the Spurs will be able to lure any to S.A. anyway.

My main concern is them upgrading the talent on the frontline via the draft. Another young, athletic PF/C-type to start working with Duncan is absolutely paramount. At his age, Duncan is still carrying way too much responsibility on both ends and desparately needs the help. In fact, it's hard to believe the Spurs have gone this long with this glaring deficiency.

[Mel_13]

then what do you call the 40m contract extention his currently on? if that aint a loyalty contract, then what is it?

heres his career nba salary
1997-98 $2,967,840
1998-99 $3,413,000
1999-00 $3,858,240 rookie deal expire
2000-01 $9,660,000 signs 30/3 extention
2001-02 $10,865,250
2002-03 $12,072,500
2003-04 $12,676,125 signs max deal
2004-05 $14,260,641
2005-06 $15,845,156
2006-07 $17,429,672
2007-08 $19,014,188
2008-09 33 $20,598,704
2009-10 34 $22,183,220 signs 2 year extention 40/2
2010-11 35 $18,700,000
2011-12 36 $21,300,000

wrong.

Here's the thread about Duncan's extension. You posted five times in that thread. Strange that you're three years off about when it happened.

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80437

[TDMVPDPOY]

I love how fans are outraged if Duncan adds a "mere" 15M, and not the 38M "he deserves" to the 150M he must have earned in his career.



the problem is not how much his going to get paid, its whether the amount invested into him is it better spent elsewhere for more pieces to build a contending team....

heres our payroll obligation
Player
11/12 74.6m
12/13 47,312,972 8players excluding duncan + draft picks

timmy, green and neal needs to get paid for 12/13 season...

i was hoping with timmays contract and that turd rj off the books, we be players in FA, but it looks like its going to be gobbled up anyway

[100%duncan]

wrong.

Here's the thread about Duncan's extension. You posted five times in that thread. Strange that you're three years off about when it happened.

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80437

:toast

[CGD]

That statement in the Harvey article sounded a lot more like his own personal conjecture than anything else...

[Ice009]

There's no doubt he deserves it. I guess what it comes down to is if Tim really wants to win or not. The more cap space they can create the better it will help in getting free agents. If they're going to be over the cap anyway then they may as well pay him 11M.

Why should Tim take a pay cut like that? What happens if Tim does that and all the guys the Spurs sign end up sucking any playing like RJ? I don't think he'd be to happy watching players suck that get payed more than him?

It's not that easy of a decision.

[Johnny RIngo]

Why should Tim take a pay cut like that? What happens if Tim does that and all the guys the Spurs sign end up sucking any playing like RJ? I don't think he'd be to happy watching players suck that get payed more than him?

It's not that easy of a decision.

After watching the Spurs FO waste the rest of Duncan/Ginobili/Parker era by overpaying for RJ/Bonner, I wouldn't take a paycut either. Give TD as much as he wants.

[Leetonidas]

I love Tim but I honestly don't think he deserves 12.8 (to be clear, for his contributions to our franchise/city yes, but as far as production goes, I don't think he'll be worth 12.8)...I'd be happy with 10 or 11 imo, but I can only hope Tim will see that the less he takes the bigger shot we have at getting a max FA this summer once we kick Dick

[dbestpro]

After watching the Spurs FO waste the rest of Duncan/Ginobili/Parker era by overpaying for RJ/Bonner, I wouldn't take a paycut either. Give TD as much as he wants.

Best post in the thread.

[Bruno]

Duncan's interests come before Parker's interests.

Parker can get over it.

It's not whose interest come first, both Duncan and Parker deserves to be respected. A $38M/3 years contract for Duncan doesn't correspond to his market value. It's a reward contract.

I have no problem with giving Duncan a reward contract but it has consequences. The first one is that Spurs FO should come to Parker and tell him "You took a reasonable extension to let us build a competitive team but instead we rewarded Duncan. If you want to move to a competitive team, just give us a list of teams you would like to go and we will try to accommodate your wishes.".

[Mark in Austin]

Nah, the trump card is Duncan saying: "Shortchange me and I'll go win a couple championships with the Miami Heat while being a hop, skip and jump away from St. Croix. Meanwhile, Spurs fans will boycott the team like after George Gervin left when they hear how little you offered me to stay despite all those championship trophies I brought to San Antonio."

That, my friend, is game, set and match if Duncan wants to actually negotiate. With that leverage, Duncan basically can get whatever he wants, tbh. If Duncan leaves in a messy way, the franchise value depreciation alone would be a lot more than whatever money the Spurs "save" by letting Duncan walk.


There is really only one way this can work. The FO sits down with Duncan and says basically, "Tim, right up front we want you to know there is no way we can pay you what you're worth in terms of everything you've done for the Spurs organization. Even at you current salary you are underpaid. We basically worked up three scenarios for you - we think one is better than the others - but we want you here and you'll never hear us complain no matter which one you choose.
1. $5M/yr for X years. Gives us the ability to go out and get you serious help. We want you to retire with at least 1 more ring.
2. $11M/yr for x years. We can still go after a MLE player and are committed to doing so.
3. $15M/yr for X years. We'll still be a great regular season team but realistically we won't be contenders anymore."

[ElNono]

Some people need to put this into perspective... There's another alleged franchise player well past his prime that is going to get paid $30m/season ($15m/season after marital deductions) for the next two seasons.

When you look at that, a $12m/season or so deal for a couple of seasons feels almost like low-balling...

[Leetonidas]

Some people need to put this into perspective... There's another alleged franchise player well past his prime that is going to get paid $30m/season ($15m/season after marital deductions) for the next two seasons.

When you look at that, a $12m/season or so deal for a couple of seasons feels almost like low-balling...

didn't think of it like that tbh this makes me feel better

[eric365]

Duncan's level of play this year is worth $10M/$12M per yr IMO

But he is already old and will play less and less minutes for this next contract.
His actual worth for the next 2 or 3 years should be around $8M/yr IMO. I don't even think he could play more than 20 min per game for 65 games the 3rd year

But since it's Duncan and for everything he has done for the spurs, I would not be mad up to $15M/year even if it hurt the spurs.

[lurker23]

This debate is actually really simple.

As a Spurs fan, you want Tim Duncan to take as little money as possible.

The Spurs, as an organization, know that it makes both business and basketball sense to give Duncan whatever the heck it takes to sign him.

If you're Tim Duncan, you have to figure out where on the spectrum between $1m and $23m you want to be paid. Anyone who thinks it's a simple or easy decision is fooling themselves.

[DPG21920]

It's a very tough spot for Tim, the FO & the fans. Before the variables changed, this type of talk was widely viewed as an obvious money grab by the Spurs front office: Delay actually rebuilding & knowingly not contend all to keep fans in the seats for a few extra years.

It's an incredibly tough decision for all parties involved, but clearly the worst option of the 3 (Pay Tim a lot and not contend, Tim take lower money and possibly help add pieces or let Tim walk and rebuild) is letting Tim walk.

[SilverSpur]

I put him at 5 to 8 mil per year. We are always asking older players to come here and play for less and guess what? Tim Duncan is an older player.

[Texas_Ranger]

I'm a huge Tim fan and cause of him I'm a Spurs fan. I would pay him $30M if I could, but cause he'll be 37 next year and if we all want the Spurs to still be a great team our first choice should be signing a star player. If that means that we can offer Tim just a $5M contract, then that should be it. Tim does deserve more money than that, but if he wants help, take less money. If the team doesn't get him help under the basket, then I wouldn't mind if he'd sign with Miami or just retire.

[Ditty]

Depending on how the Spurs do in the playoffs will effect his decision imo. I think if we make a solid late season playoff run, and he sees we need another piece or two, I think he end up signing for about 8 million. If we have another early playoff exit I wouldn't blame him taking 11 million + , as the front office has barely helped him in the front court these past few years .

[Agloco]

Offer Tim 5M, resign Neal for a nice 4-year 27 mil contract or something like that. Amnesty Dick and we'll still have a little under 20 million to offer someone like a Howard. If Duncan refuses to resign for that amount he's not a team player and he can walk, I'm fine with that.

:lol

So Neal is worth more than Tim now?

[Cane]

Duncan's still one of the better bigs and leaders in the league and will be paid accordingly.

As for improving the roster next season....Spurs should try and lure another big and wing from overseas (Lorbek?) and give them Splitter/Neal sized contracts. Amnesty or somehow get rid of RJ and make a move for a decent player or two. Easier said than done but if the Spurs end up being a convincing first round exit, I think those kind of moves will be made

[SenorSpur]

As Tim's skills have declined over the past 2 seasons, it's obvious that as long as he continues to play, that situation will only get worse.

The best approach is to incrementally upgrade the frontline talent around him so as to mitigate that decline.

[benefactor]

wrong.

Here's the thread about Duncan's extension. You posted five times in that thread. Strange that you're three years off about when it happened.

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80437
:lol

And with that, I think I'll lump this cat in with TJastal...lol didn't read...scroll'd on past.

[benefactor]

This debate is actually really simple.

As a Spurs fan, you want Tim Duncan to take as little money as possible.

The Spurs, as an organization, know that it makes both business and basketball sense to give Duncan whatever the heck it takes to sign him.

If you're Tim Duncan, you have to figure out where on the spectrum between $1m and $23m you want to be paid. Anyone who thinks it's a simple or easy decision is fooling themselves.
:tu

At the end of the day I'm sure there will be a reasonable outcome.

[Ditty]

Neal is under contract next season. I think we end up letting Green go as he will be demanding more money, and bring back Anderson who we can sign for cheaper for at least one more season.

[silverblk mystix]

I don't really have good words to say how dumb this fucking take is. You seem to hit new levels every time I log in.

You pay Tim Duncan...period. Saying stupid shit like the above drivel is a slap in the face of a player that made this team what it is today. He is the franchise, no matter how old he is. Stop fucking looking at him from role player/production = worth standpoint and remember what he has done for this city and this team. Who gives a shit if the Spurs can't contend over the next few seasons? He's Tim Duncan. Tim. Fucking. Duncan.

Pay him.

Emotion.

Nothing to do with reality.

I would hope that in my job, I could get a huge raise for the next 10 years, based on what I did 10 years ago.

Let's say that currently in your job...you accomplish a lot less than you used to....take extra sick days because your body is old....you sometimes get embarrassed by younger employees who are twice as productive as you are...

but because 10 years ago you were employee of the year...you want to make more money than others who are doing twice the work you do because ...ten years ago you were awesome!

Sure,this makes sense.

[benefactor]

Horrible analogy is horrible.

[DesignatedT]

12 million a year is completely fair. Would you rather he retire/leave? uhhhhhhhhhh no

Some of you are really anxious to start losing and "rebuilding" as if it's going to be some easy task to do.

[TimmehC]

Simple solution: give him a 1-year deal at a high dollar amount, and re-negotiate both his and Manu's deals next summer, if they still want to stick around.

[DesignatedT]

Simple solution: give him a 1-year deal at a high dollar amount, and re-negotiate both his and Manu's deals next summer, if they still want to stick around.

and what if he doesn't want a 1 year deal?

[thispego]

Emotion.

Nothing to do with reality.

I would hope that in my job, I could get a huge raise for the next 10 years, based on what I did 10 years ago.

Let's say that currently in your job...you accomplish a lot less than you used to....take extra sick days because your body is old....you sometimes get embarrassed by younger employees who are twice as productive as you are...

but because 10 years ago you were employee of the year...you want to make more money than others who are doing twice the work you do because ...ten years ago you were awesome!

Sure,this makes sense.

Duncan is currently the best big man on the team! :lmao
stat-wise, leadership-wise, everything-wise! damn you're dumb

[DPG21920]

At the end of the day I'm fairly confident they will do what's fair to all parties. Like Bruno said, TP took a contract that shows he wants to contend still. I'm sure they all want to win.

[Keepin' it real]

There's a saying in my house (and maybe yours too): "Whatever Baby wants, Baby gets."

So I'm wondering if the real question here is: What's the least amount of money Mrs. Duncan :married: will allow her husband to play for?

[TimmehC]

and what if he doesn't want a 1 year deal?

Then give him what he wants, with the knowledge that the team around him will slowly turn to crap.

[therealtruth]

Simple solution: give him a 1-year deal at a high dollar amount, and re-negotiate both his and Manu's deals next summer, if they still want to stick around.

I believe the new CBA allows you to renegotiate contracts any time. I wonder how teams will start to use this. Potentially you could renegotiate a lower contract for someone who isn't worth their contract.

[DPG21920]

Bold Prediction: Spurs will make a trade at the deadline and win the title this year.

[Mel_13]

I believe the new CBA allows you to renegotiate contracts any time. I wonder how teams will start to use this. Potentially you could renegotiate a lower contract for someone who isn't worth their contract.

It doesn't.

There were some reports to that effect during the late stages of the negotiations, but they were based on a misreading of the proposed agreement.

[Spurs da champs]

Bold Prediction: Spurs will make a trade at the deadline and win the title this year.

Doubt it, we've got the most timid Front Office in the league.

[Mal]

And there goes any big name FA

[DPG21920]

Doubt it, we've got the most timid Front Office in the league.

You don't have to believe it; just be there for the parade :tu

[anonoftheinternets]

I would hope that in my job, ....

Comparing you at ur job to duncan at his :lol

[Gutter92]

This debate is actually really simple.

As a Spurs fan, you want Tim Duncan to take as little money as possible.

The Spurs, as an organization, know that it makes both business and basketball sense to give Duncan whatever the heck it takes to sign him.

If you're Tim Duncan, you have to figure out where on the spectrum between $1m and $23m you want to be paid. Anyone who thinks it's a simple or easy decision is fooling themselves.

http://cache.ohinternet.com/images/thumb/2/2d/Trollface_HD.png/618px-Trollface_HD.png

[DPG21920]

The debate is simple; the actual decision is not.

[CGD]

I can see the "starting point" (to quote Buck directly) in a negotiation being around half of what he is currently making (or an average of his last contract), and then the parties agreeing on something less than that. The Spurs are probably more concerned about not insulting Tim by low balling him tbh.

Tim is pragmatic. The most likely scenario is that he is brought into any discussion about acquiring a new "impact" player, and based on whether that is feasible or not, he will adjust his salary demands. 9-10M a year would be my bet, which would leave around 7-8M to spend this summer by my count (assuming RJ is dropped).

[lurker23]

The debate is simple; the actual decision is not.

This.

One thing to consider in this whole situation: while Tim will need to be signed before the Spurs make any more moves (in order to remove his enormous cap hold), that doesn't mean that the Spurs can't leave him unsigned for the time-being while they negotiate with other free agents.

For example, the Spurs could pursue a relatively big name free agent, telling that player that Tim is willing to take less if he comes on board. If that player agrees verbally to a $12m/yr contract, then they would sign Tim for ~$3-5m, then give the free agent the remainder of the cap space. However, if the Spurs were to strike out with the big names and instead get a player in the $6m/yr range, they could tell Tim "thanks for the offer," and end up giving him ~$9-11m.

[phxspurfan]

The big 3 is pure Spur forever. I don't care if you have to let got of Neal, Green and Anderson. Duncan retires a Spur and 4 championships is more than enough to build him a statue in front of that gym. Let D, P and G start next to Shane Heal, Cherokee Parks and Bonner. I don't care. Spurs forever.

[timvp]

first off, I think the worst method to figure out what "a player deserves" is to compare to other contracts.That's how NBA teams and agents negotiate. Each side points to comparables to set the parameters of the deal. For example, for Tony Parker's first big contract, he wanted to make more than Gilbert Arenas. And David Robinson's agent pointed to John Stockton's contract with the Jazz (two-year, $22 million) as the example of what Robinson should get.


if that aint a loyalty contract, then what is it?I know this has been covered but to say Duncan's current contract is a loyalty contract is beyond ridiculous.


That statement in the Harvey article sounded a lot more like his own personal conjecture than anything else...Buck Harvey is too connected to pull those specifics out of thin air.

[Mugen]

Pay the man.

[024]

since the spur won't have much cap room next year, time to pull off some crazy cap killing trade. sigh... too bad there are no expiring contracts large enough.

[timvp]

A $38M/3 years contract for Duncan doesn't correspond to his market value.What do you think is Duncan's market value if you think $12.7 million per year is too much? That's the going rate for an above average starting center. Unless he falls off a cliff between now and the offseason, Duncan has all the appearances of a player who can be an above average starting center for a couple more seasons.

As a Spurs fan who wants to see the Spurs win, I would like Duncan to take less. But there's no way $12.7 million per year is exorbitant.


I have no problem with giving Duncan a reward contract but it has consequences. The first one is that Spurs FO should come to Parker and tell him "You took a reasonable extension to let us build a competitive team but instead we rewarded Duncan. If you want to move to a competitive team, just give us a list of teams you would like to go and we will try to accommodate your wishes.".As great of a contract Parker's extension looks now on paper, Parker wasn't simply motivated by giving the Spurs a break. When he signed that extension, he was coming off of the worst year of his career and there was a looming lockout. He decided it wasn't worth testing the market due to the risk that he could either fall off further or the new CBA could bring down how much money he could earn.

It's true that he could have played hardball and gotten more money and he was tired of the distractions caused by everyone assuming he was leaving for a bigger market ... but there were legitimate reasons why he took four years and $50 million when his outlook was uncertain.




Speaking of which, Bill Simmons today mentioned Parker's contract:


The 12 most cap-appealing NBA contracts that aren't rookie deals or expiring deals:

1. Tony Allen: 2 years, $6.45 million
2. Paul Millsap: 2 years, $16.7 million
3. Marcin Gortat: 3 years, $21.8 million
4. Kyle Lowry: 3 years, $17.5 million
5. Nikola Pekovic: 2 years, $9.3 million
6. Rajon Rondo: 4 years, $45 million
7. Tony Parker: 4 years, $50 million
8. Anderson Varejao: 4 years, $34.8 million
9. Josh Smith: 2 years, $25.6 million
10. Sam Dalembert: 2 years, $13.6 million
11. Udonis Haslem: 4 years, $16.8 million
12. Brandon Bass: 2 years, $8.5 million

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7664492/nba-trade-value-part-1

[timvp]

Here's the best comparable I found yet: Marcus Camby got a two year extension from the Blazers at age 36 for two years and $25 million.













Suddenly Spurs fans think Tim Duncan doesn't deserve Marcus Camby money :lmao

[phxspurfan]

Here's the best comparable I found yet: Marcus Camby got a two year extension from the Blazers at age 36 for two years and $25 million.

Suddenly Spurs fans think Tim Duncan doesn't deserve Marcus Camby money :lmao

Those Spur fans need to stfu on this, seriously. Overpaying some punk kid over paying TD what he's worth is quintessential casual NBA fan thinking.

Next thing you know, those same fans will be saying Spurs Are Boring (tm).

[flox]

From circa 2001 :

'The National Basketball Association today announced that Commissioner David Stern has taken the following actions based upon an arbitrator's ruling on Monday that the Minnesota Timberwolves, Joe Smith, and agent Eric Fleisher entered into a secret agreement in violation of the NBA's salary cap rules:

directed the forfeiture of Minnesota's own first-round draft picks in the 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004 and 2005 NBA Drafts;

fined the team $3.5 million; and

voided the player contract between Smith and the Timberwolves for the 2000-01 season, along with all contracts previously entered into by Smith and the team.

In addition to these penalties, the Collective Bargaining Agreement also authorizes the Commissioner to suspend team personnel who were involved in the making of the secret agreement. Those suspensions will be determined after subsequent proceedings before the arbitrator.'

Correct me if I wrong but wasn't this because this was a secret deal and also one which was not a personal services contract, but rather, a hidden agreement?

If a personal services contract isn't private (It isn't from the MLB with the Pujols contract), does it still count against the cap? For how much? How could they calculate the cost?

I obviously have no clue how or if this works. Just wondering if anyone else does.

[Bruno]

What do you think is Duncan's market value if you think $12.7 million per year is too much?

It's the length of the contract that is too much.
Do you really think that Duncan, who is playing with a bones on bones knee, will be worth $12.7M for the 2015 playoffs while he will be 39 years old?



As great of a contract Parker's extension looks now on paper, Parker wasn't simply motivated by giving the Spurs a break. When he signed that extension, he was coming off of the worst year of his career and there was a looming lockout. He decided it wasn't worth testing the market due to the risk that he could either fall off further or the new CBA could bring down how much money he could earn.

Parker didn't of course sacrifice $30M but part of the reason why he accepted this reasonable extension was to help Spurs build a good team.

If Spurs sign Duncan to a $38M/3 years contract, they had to let Parker choose what he wants for his future. Agree?

[phxspurfan]

If Spurs sign Duncan to a $38M/3 years contract, they had to let Parker choose what he wants for his future. Agree?

Iiinteresting. So this makes me think that, if the Spurs want to offer Duncan this kind of money, and keep the big 3 happy, they should get them all in a room and discuss the options to make sure no one is upset at the decision (In a perfect world, I know).

[tuncaboylu]

It's the length of the contract that is too much.
Do you really think that Duncan, who is playing with a bones on bones knee, will be worth $12.7M for the 2015 playoffs while he will be 39 years old?



Parker didn't of course sacrifice $30M but part of the reason why he accepted this reasonable extension was to help Spurs build a good team.

If Spurs sign Duncan to a $38M/3 years contract, they had to let Parker choose what he wants for his future. Agree?

Parker will also get his reward contract when the time comes.

Lannisiters, opps, Spurs always pay their debts.

[Spurs da champs]

Here's the best comparable I found yet: Marcus Camby got a two year extension from the Blazers at age 36 for two years and $25 million.











Suddenly Spurs fans think Tim Duncan doesn't deserve Marcus Camby money :lmao

That was the Blazer's front office which drafted Greg Oden, I mean c'mon.

[Spurs Brazil]

TD earned it

Spurs have to pay what he asks

[Spurs da champs]

TD earned it

Spurs have to pay what he asks

If Tim cared about winning another title he'd do what's best for the team, but it seems that's lacking now a days.

[Mal]

Here's the best comparable I found yet: Marcus Camby got a two year extension from the Blazers at age 36 for two years and $25 million.



Suddenly Spurs fans think Tim Duncan doesn't deserve Marcus Camby money :lmao

I think that Tim needs to be paid well. But on the other hand I would like to see Tim, Manu, Tony and 12mil FA next year.

[DPG21920]

Well, tbh, after Tim and TP both have left money on the table to help add pieces and seeing how woefully short and inadequate they still are upfront, I wouldn't blame Tim for saying "I'll take the money this time, thanks though".

[tenbeersbold]

Let Duncan go...
Tiago can put up his numbers for far less $$$

He's just waiting..Tim is done

Tim hanging around after this season just damages the chemistry of those ready to go tbh

[TD 21]

timvp's never been more right and Harlem's never been more wrong.

"latter part of the top 10 C's"? Other than Howard and Bynum, who's better than him? The only other name I could understand is P. Gasol, who's really a center playing out of position most of the time.

"$8-9 million per season"? That's insanity. He's easily worth in excess of $10 million. Maybe you'd ideally like to pay him $8-9 (or lower), but there's no way he's worth that low considering the going rate for decent centers. And by decent, I'm talking a guy like Jordan, who's obviously not in his class. Sure, he's old, but we're not talking about a long term deal here. Short term, he's clearly worth that.

And all this talk about "if they give him 3 years/$38 million, they're basically telling Parker F U" is nonsense. One, I can't envision a scenario in which Duncan signs for more than 2 years and two, as if they'd be able to attract a significantly better player anyway. Let's say he's at or close to the same level next season, which is All-Star caliber. No different than the Jefferson's and Nene's of the world (who, by the way, have never actually been selected), who the vast majority pine for. They'd be hard pressed to get someone in that class. If you think they could get someone clear cut above it, you're delusional.

[timvp]

It's the length of the contract that is too much.So two years, $25.4 million is okay in your book and wouldn't classify as a reward contract?


If Spurs sign Duncan to a $38M/3 years contract, they had to let Parker choose what he wants for his future. Agree?I don't think giving Duncan one extra year changes the equation enough that suddenly Parker should be given an option to be traded. Besides, if the Spurs went to Parker and asked him to sign off on Duncan getting $38M/3, he would instantly say yes. Spoiled Spurs fans may view Duncan as a burden (like the post two above this one) but there's no Spurs player looking forward to life after Duncan.


That was the Blazer's front office which drafted Greg Oden, I mean c'mon.

90%+ teams would have made the same choice including the Spurs.


If Tim cared about winning another title he'd do what's best for the team, but it seems that's lacking now a days.Giving up millions is the best move basketball-wise but it should hardly be thought of as what's expected.

[Spurs da champs]

So two years, $25.4 million is okay in your book and wouldn't classify as a reward contract?

I don't think giving Duncan one extra year changes the equation enough that suddenly Parker should be given an option to be traded. Besides, if the Spurs went to Parker and asked him to sign off on Duncan getting $38M/3, he would instantly say yes. Spoiled Spurs fans may view Duncan as a burden (like the post two above this one) but there's no Spurs player looking forward to life after Duncan.



90%+ teams would have made the same choice including the Spurs.

Giving up millions is the best move basketball-wise but it should hardly be thought of as what's expected.

Well the Blazer's specifically made that move because they had nobody besides Camby at the center position.

And yes sadly you're right, but wouldn't you think loyalty or the chance to win another title would kick in?
It likely doesn't matter anyways though even if he did take a cut our front office would not be aggressive in Free Agency anyways.:nope

[slick'81]

do we all wish duncan would take mle money sure but it aint happening david got his 10 per duncan will be similar

[baseline bum]

Well the Blazer's specifically made that move because they had nobody besides Camby at the center position.

Seriously? They had Travis Outlaw and Martell Webster at the 3. They made that move because Oden was a once-in-5+ years kind of bigman prospect.

[Spurs da champs]

Seriously? They had Travis Outlaw and Martell Webster at the 3. They made that move because Oden was a once-in-5+ years kind of bigman prospect.

Regardless they knew about his surgery/injury history before they drafted him, Durant was the obvious safe pick in comparison, now look at the Blazers, neither Webster or Outlaw remain on the team. And you say Oden was a once it 5 years pick, Durant was a once in a generation pick, you don't find that gifted a scorer every year.

[DPG21920]

I guess I am just surprised that timvp is failing to acknowledge this has nothing to do with Tim's actual value and everything to do with circumstance. In a bubble, Duncan's value is what he is saying contractually. But because of the circumstance & what is being sold to the fan (i.e. title contenders) this comes off as a money grab by the front office.

San Antonio isn't Phoenix that is selling the excitement of the game even though we aren't contenders. What SA is, is a title team or bust. I think it's more than unfair to saddle fans that have supported Matt Bonner, the re-signing of RJ & no 2nd round playoff wins as "spoiled". These fans were told that the goal was a title and they want the actions to sync up to that. Put the money where their mouth is. But when the same problems have arisen year after year after year now with nothing done to address them (while in turn you could argue them going backwards by trading a proven rotational player in Hill for a raw 20 year old rookie AND re-signing RJ and Matt), I think it's more than fair to look at the circumstance and say here's an opportunity to add to the team to give them a legit shot to contend; not just have a 3 year, going on 6 year farewell tour.

Tim by his play deserves 12-15M for the next two years. The situation the Spurs are in calls for him to take less. It is the ultimate catch 22 because we shouldn't expect Tim to give up money, but sort of do.

[ElNono]

Regardless they knew about his surgery/injury history before they drafted him, Durant was the obvious safe pick in comparison, now look at the Blazers, neither Webster or Outlaw remain on the team. And you say Oden was a once it 5 years pick, Durant was a once in a generation pick, you don't find that gifted a scorer every year.

Hindsight is a hell of a drug...

[Bruno]

So two years, $25.4 million is okay in your book and wouldn't classify as a reward contract?

Depending on the rest of the season, I would say that $20M-$24M for 2 years would be a fair contract.

And I wouldn't be surprised that Harvey is spreading some Spurs' PR bullshit with Duncan finally signing for way less and then medias making Duncan looks like God for having sacrificed tons of money.



I don't think giving Duncan one extra year changes the equation enough that suddenly Parker should be given an option to be traded.

I guess we'll agree to disagree.

I have a true problem if Spurs, who have used the "it will help the team to stay good" card with Parker to low ball him, give a reward contract to Duncan without blinking. That's a fucked move morally wise.Parker should have least has the option of being traded if Spurs suck.

[Hoops Czar]

I guess I am just surprised that timvp is failing to acknowledge this has nothing to do with Tim's actual value and everything to do with circumstance. In a bubble, Duncan's value is what he is saying contractually. But because of the circumstance & what is being sold to the fan (i.e. title contenders) this comes off as a money grab by the front office.

San Antonio isn't Phoenix that is selling the excitement of the game even though we aren't contenders. What SA is, is a title team or bust. I think it's more than unfair to saddle fans that have supported Matt Bonner, the re-signing of RJ & no 2nd round playoff wins as "spoiled". These fans were told that the goal was a title and they want the actions to sync up to that. Put the money where their mouth is. But when the same problems have arisen year after year after year now with nothing done to address them (while in turn you could argue them going backwards by trading a proven rotational player in Hill for a raw 20 year old rookie AND re-signing RJ and Matt), I think it's more than fair to look at the circumstance and say here's an opportunity to add to the team to give them a legit shot to contend; not just have a 3 year, going on 6 year farewell tour.

Tim by his play deserves 12-15M for the next two years. The situation the Spurs are in calls for him to take less. It is the ultimate catch 22 because we shouldn't expect Tim to give up money, but sort of do.

Shoudn't that be the other way around. I don't see how supporting Matt Bonner and the re-signing of Rj would make anyone spoiled. And furthermore, the only true bonner supporters are forum trolls and not even they supported the re-signng of RJ.

[ElNono]

I approve any deal that might include trading Parker

[DPG21920]

Side note, why didn't the Heat big 3 just take $10 million each (a LOT of money, tbh, even after taxes) to build their dynasty by signing a brilliant core of role players instead of just having a decent to average one?

Because they are good enough to get their money and still contend. Spurs are not.

[timvp]

I think it's more than unfair to saddle fans that have supported Matt Bonner, the re-signing of RJ & no 2nd round playoff wins as "spoiled". These fans were told that the goal was a title and they want the actions to sync up to that.So certain Spurs fans aren't spoiled because the Spurs were trying to win a title and didn't? I'm not following that logic, tbh.


Put the money where their mouth is.The Spurs are above the luxury tax threshold even though there were easy ways to get below if that was their main goal. Cheapness was an issue in the past but it's not really an issue now.


But when the same problems have arisen year after year after year now with nothing done to address themThe Spurs big move to address their weaknesses was the RJ trade. The ownership group agreed to take on a bad contract in an attempt to recapture the championship years. Good idea. Good execution. Poor results.

If you're talking about this season only, the problem is the Spurs don't really have the assets to make a worthwhile trade. All the cap planning over the years (giving Duncan less money, having contracts expire with unguranteed money in the final year, passing up potentially bad deals, etc.) gave the Spurs one shot to infuse a big contract into the mix ... unfortunately the front office picked the wrong player.


I think it's more than fair to look at the circumstance and say here's an opportunity to add to the team to give them a legit shot to contend; not just have a 3 year, going on 6 year farewell tour. You classify the last three seasons as a farewell tour? That's an odd take, tbh.

And I don't think dumping Tim Duncan to go in another direction really matches your description of "an opportunity to add to the team to give them a legit shot to contend". You let Duncan walk, whatever money you save will mostly be spent trying to makeup for what was lost.


Tim by his play deserves 12-15M for the next two years. The situation the Spurs are in calls for him to take less. It is the ultimate catch 22 because we shouldn't expect Tim to give up money, but sort of do.Hmmm ... yeah that's a pretty good way to put it if you base your expectations off of Duncan giving up money in the past.

[timvp]

Depending on the rest of the season, I would say that $20M-$24M for 2 years would be a fair contract.Tbh, given how perfect the Marcus Camby comparison is, I still think you are a little low.

-Camby wasn't a free agent ... so if Duncan doesn't want to leave, he's basically in the same boat and his next contract would be more of an extension.

-Camby was the same age.

-Camby is a center who is productive per-minute but whose minutes are down.

-Like Duncan, Camby has an injury history to consider.

So if Camby got a contract that could be worth as much as $25 million over two years, how is Duncan's value less than that? Duncan's per-minute numbers are better and will probably play more minutes. He's obviously a better player than Camby. And then if you add in the intangibles built up throughout the years, two years and a fully guaranteed $25 million should be Duncan's absolute minimal "value".



I have a true problem if Spurs, who have used the "it will help the team to stay good" card with Parker to low ball him, give a reward contract to Duncan without blinking. That's a fucked move morally wise.Parker should have least has the option of being traded if Spurs suck.Well Duncan took less money and that probably allowed the Spurs to give Parker his extension. So the argument is more complex.

[DPG21920]

I'm talking about the re-signing of RJ and Matt to save money; that wasn't a move to win, that was a move to save money. I don't fault them at all for making the RJ trade. I was damn happy and proud they did that. Once it failed, they bailed on the basketball side of winning and concentrated on the financial side and the fans have still shown good support. The Spurs haven't won a 2nd round game in years, yet are being told the goal is to contend (despite trading away a solid rotation player for a rookie). They still supported the team; that is what I mean by they aren't spoiled.

Spurs are slightly above the threshold now, but avoided taking much bigger hit in a 3 year window by signing RJ even though it crippled their ability to add to the team (even when TP took less money to help; same with Tim).

I classify the last 3 years (maybe two) with out a 2nd round round win as that since they have known for years they have needed more yet failed to address the needs.

Again, what I mean by circumstance is what is being sold. If you have the big 3, you are trying to contend (or should because you owe them and the fans that). I never said "dump Tim Duncan", but if you did that, it would signal a rebuild and it would be a different set of circumstances. It would signal something new (i.e. rebuilding team vs contending team).

[timvp]

I'm talking about the re-signing of RJ and Matt to save money; that wasn't a move to win, that was a move to save money.RJ's $40 million contract will cost the Spurs more money than if they just had RJ play out his final year. And re-signing Bonner to save money? When did that happen?


Once it failed, they bailed on the basketball side of winning and concentrated on the financial side and the fans have still shown good support.Disagree. The Spurs wouldn't be above the threshold if their goal was to make money.

I can't agree that the Spurs aren't trying to win right now. It's just that winning a championship is really hard to do.


The Spurs haven't won a 2nd round game in years, yet are being told the goal is to contend :violin @ the championships-are-my-birthright Spurs fans.


Spurs are slightly above the threshold nowThe Spurs are more than $3 million over the threshold. If saving money was their goal, they could have just amnestied RJ or McDyess's guaranteed portion of his contract.


I classify the last 3 years (maybe two) with out a 2nd round round win as that since they have known for years they have needed more yet failed to address the needs. So on the same day you say the Spurs are going to win the championship, you also say they have been on an extended farewell tour. Interesting.

[Bruno]

So if Camby got a contract that could be worth as much as $25 million over two years, how is Duncan's value less than that?

Portland overpaid Camby.
Determining Duncan's market value only using one player is flawed.



Well Duncan took less money and that probably allowed the Spurs to give Parker his extension. So the argument is more complex.

Well, even if Duncan didn't sign a maw extension, he has been way overpaid during that 2 years stint.

[DPG21920]

RJ's $40 million contract will cost the Spurs more money than if they just had RJ play out his final year. And re-signing Bonner to save money? When did that happen?


Then why did they re-sign RJ?



Disagree. The Spurs wouldn't be above the threshold if their goal was to make money.

I can't agree that the Spurs aren't trying to win right now. It's just that winning a championship is really hard to do.

They could very well end up below the threshold this year. Also, if you can't agree they aren't trying to win, then please explain what they have tried to do to improve their chances since their last 2nd round win?


championships are my birth-rite fans

Just after you recently saying you couldn't support the FO for going for an obvious money grab? Interesting.


The Spurs are more than $3 million over the threshold. If saving money was their goal, they could have just amnestied RJ or McDyess's guaranteed portion of his contract.

So on the same day you say the Spurs are going to win the championship, you also say they have been on an extended farewell tour. Interesting.

I'm still a fan tbh :smokin

[angelbelow]

Sounds about right.

[ThaBigFundamental21]

I can't help but think that is too much money for Tim Duncan. I know he has done everything for this franchise. But shouldn't winning be the focus here?

[angelbelow]

I can't help but think that is too much money for Tim Duncan. I know he has done everything for this franchise. But shouldn't winning be the focus here?

Why is that too much? You know how they say that NBA is a "business" every time a player get traded? The same thing applies here.

They could clear enough cap to make room for a big time free agent OR they could make the safe business decision and keep Duncan with the Spurs. Duncan will be an acceptable ROI for them whereas a full on rebuilding process will not.

Winning is great but its not realistic season in and season out. Therefore, you have to rely on a business model to function as a successful business.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

If Tim wants to win another ring, why wouldn't he take 5mil per and allow the team to try to bring in a max FA? We all know he deserves 10-15mil a year, but as has already been stated that won't allow the team to acquire what it needs to truly contend. Rock and a hard place. :depressed

My bet is he'll sign for 2yrs 24mil.

[therealtruth]

I think Tim would be more willing to give a discount if the FO could show him they were serious about using the extra cap space to get him some frontcourt help. Bonner/Blair just isn't going to cut it. Otherwise I say he should go for every penny.

[ohmwrecker]

Duncan for $11mil per seems like a bargain tbh.

[ohmwrecker]

btw, the Spurs, even in championship years, have never really overspent to build a roster. Which makes the 4 they have pretty incredible. Especially considering most of the teams that have won, over the same period of time, all had a significantly higher than average payroll.

Spurs fans are goofy

[Borosai]

I realize it's a business, but there's no way Duncan should ever play for another team, and I'm sure the Spurs front office have no plans to push him in that direction. They'll pay him, he'll play, he'll retire, and that's the way it should be.

[The Truth #6]

I don't think there's much to talk about. Duncan will decide how much he wants and the Spurs will pay it. If Duncan accepts less so the team can try to get a good player, then that's what happens. That was the situation last time and Tim took less. Who knows what he'll do next? Either way, be realistic, the window has closed. Enjoy the oxygen while it lasts. No reason to avoid reality: all things eventually come to an end.

[therealtruth]

I'm talking about the re-signing of RJ and Matt to save money; that wasn't a move to win, that was a move to save money. I don't fault them at all for making the RJ trade. I was damn happy and proud they did that. Once it failed, they bailed on the basketball side of winning and concentrated on the financial side and the fans have still shown good support. The Spurs haven't won a 2nd round game in years, yet are being told the goal is to contend (despite trading away a solid rotation player for a rookie). They still supported the team; that is what I mean by they aren't spoiled.

Spurs are slightly above the threshold now, but avoided taking much bigger hit in a 3 year window by signing RJ even though it crippled their ability to add to the team (even when TP took less money to help; same with Tim).

I classify the last 3 years (maybe two) with out a 2nd round round win as that since they have known for years they have needed more yet failed to address the needs.

Again, what I mean by circumstance is what is being sold. If you have the big 3, you are trying to contend (or should because you owe them and the fans that). I never said "dump Tim Duncan", but if you did that, it would signal a rebuild and it would be a different set of circumstances. It would signal something new (i.e. rebuilding team vs contending team).

I had my misgivings about the RJ trade. I thought the only way it would work is if they could transfer RJ into Bowen 2.0 with better offense. Even then that money would have been better spent on a bigman.

[therealtruth]

I don't think there's much to talk about. Duncan will decide how much he wants and the Spurs will pay it. If Duncan accepts less so the team can try to get a good player, then that's what happens. That was the situation last time and Tim took less. Who knows what he'll do next? Either way, be realistic, the window has closed. Enjoy the oxygen while it lasts. No reason to avoid reality: all things eventually come to an end.

Tim took less so they could waste money on Bonner and RJ.

[MaNu4Tres]

I had my misgivings about the RJ trade. I thought the only way it would work is if they could transfer RJ into Bowen 2.0 with better offense. Even then that money would have been better spent on a bigman.

What money?

A lot of fans still don't understand this.

With or without R.J's new deal, Spurs would have only been able to use the MLE to bring in a free agent(s) each off-season (2010 and 2011). They couldn't use the 9 million per they gave R.J on free agents from other teams because of the team being over the cap with Tim, Manu and Tony under contract. How hard is it for people to understand this?

[angelbelow]

What money?

A lot of fans still don't understand this.

With or without R.J's new deal, Spurs would have only been able to use the MLE to bring in a free agent(s) each off-season (2010 and 2011). They couldn't use the 9 million per they gave R.J on free agents from other teams because of the team being over the cap with Tim, Manu and Tony under contract. How hard is it for people to understand this?

One could say that MaNu4Tres just delivered therealtruth.

[therealtruth]

What money?

A lot of fans still don't understand this.

With or without R.J's new deal, Spurs would have only been able to use the MLE to bring in a free agent(s) each off-season (2010 and 2011). They couldn't use the 9 million per they gave R.J on free agents from other teams because of the team being over the cap with Tim, Manu and Tony under contract. How hard is it for people to understand this?

What I meant is instead of trading for RJ they should have traded for a good big man. I would much rather be over the cap and have decent bigs than be over the cap with RJ and no bigs.

[TDMVPDPOY]

with or without overpaying that clown rj

it really didnt make a difference whether the team had money to sign anyway, this team will always be a high seed and first round exit, with late draft picks, shouldve just kept his original contract and paid the luxury tax since its basically the same roster with nothing improved at all....our position has not change much since acquiring this turd

[ElNono]

What money?

A lot of fans still don't understand this.

With or without R.J's new deal, Spurs would have only been able to use the MLE to bring in a free agent(s) each off-season (2010 and 2011). They couldn't use the 9 million per they gave R.J on free agents from other teams because of the team being over the cap with Tim, Manu and Tony under contract. How hard is it for people to understand this?

The Spurs wouldn't have an extra $9m of cap space if they didn't tender RJ an offer after he opted out of the last year of his previous contract?

[MaNu4Tres]

The Spurs wouldn't have an extra $9m of cap space if they didn't tender RJ an offer after he opted out of the last year of his previous contract?

No they wouldn't have.

Even if R.J wasn't on the Spurs, they would have still been over the cap with Tim, Manu and Tony under contract.

[Wild Cobra Kai]

No they wouldn't have.

Even if R.J wasn't on the Spurs, they would have still been over the cap with Tim, Manu and Tony under contract.

So many people don't understand this.

[BackHome]

All I care is that we are taking positive steps to the future in getting better. I loved what we did last year in getting Kawhi I think that was a big deal but then we goosed on our pick CJ "If no one was good enough should have just traded or gotten second rounder"

Going into next season I know even if we have money we are terrible at attracting free agents. It is not our team it is the city.."See Charles Barkley Comments". I hope we can bring over Lobrek which will help us with a true big....If we bring over Lobrek then hope we can let RJ go by drafting Jeffrey Taylor or Quincy Miller at SF.

Duncan is a cool cat and he will get what he should get nothing less nothing more.

[DPG21920]

What people don't understand is that it was bad business to give proven playoff chokers 50M (RJ + Bonner) when they are known failures. If they would have simply let RJ play out his original contract, not only would he have been more appealing expiring contract in a time of need, but they would have had more flexibility (even if it was just the MLE) to sign players.

It was not a basketball decision; The Spurs with the luxury tax hit they were going to pay that year was about equal to what RJ's extension would be since he got them under the LT line that year. Instead of biting the bullet, they decided to keep RJ, hamstring themselves like you see now with little to no ability to make any changes to a team that desperately needed changes.

I understand MLE money doesn't guarantee the Spurs any players as we have seen, but at least RJ would be off the damn team instead of infecting the team like a cancer (not his locker room actions, but his energy and terrible play are like a sickness).

Signing RJ+Matt to 50M was a terrible basketball move and financial move.

[DPG21920]

What people don't understand is that it was bad business to give proven playoff chokers 50M (RJ + Bonner) when they are known failures. If they would have simply let RJ play out his original contract, not only would he have been more appealing expiring contract in a time of need, but they would have had more flexibility (even if it was just the MLE) to sign players.

It was not a basketball decision; The Spurs with the luxury tax hit they were going to pay that year was about equal to what RJ's extension would be since he got them under the LT line that year. Instead of biting the bullet, they decided to keep RJ, hamstring themselves like you see now with little to no ability to make any changes to a team that desperately needed changes.

I understand MLE money doesn't guarantee the Spurs any players as we have seen, but at least RJ would be off the damn team instead of infecting the team like a cancer (not his locker room actions, but his energy and terrible play are like a sickness).

Signing RJ+Matt to 50M was a terrible basketball move and financial move.

Previous discussions:


I rather let RJ go than re-signing him to a big contract. Letting RJ go will hurt Spurs next year, signing him to a 4 or 5 years contract with a salary above $8M per year will hurt Spurs for a long time. S&T is the best outcome for Spurs.


Well, it will hurt Spurs for 3 or 4 years. That's a long time to me.


So Spurs will be a legit title contender next year because of RJ? :lol

Signing RJ to a big long term contract won't really help Spurs in the short term and will hurt them in the long term when they won't be able to quickly rebuild the team because or his contract.


The guy sucked so let's lock him in for the long-term!

Reducing his salary from $15M to $8M this season does nothing to create room or money to sign anyone this off-season. It does, however, take anyway the only good thing about RJ heading into this off-season-- his EXPIRING contract.




Jefferson's opt out pays off in new deal with Spurs by David Aldridge


Jefferson will make back all of the $15 million he gave up this year -- he will earn more than $27 million in the first three years of the deal -- and now has some security that he will not be a free agent in a summer where the possibility of a lockout by owners to get a new Collective Bargaining Agreement is increasingly likely.

By bringing Jefferson back for almost $7 million less than than he was scheduled the make, the Spurs were also able to bring over their 2007 first-round pick, Brazilian center Tiago Splitter -- considered the best big man in Europe -- and re-sign forward Matt Bonner for less in total than what they would have paid for Jefferson alone under his old deal. Splitter, who should be a significant part of the rotation next season :lol, agreed to a three-year, $10 million deal, and Bonner returned to San Antonio on a four-year deal.

[timvp]

Bump.












So KG gets $34 million over three years. Something similar for Duncan would be great for the Spurs, especially if the third year is only partially guaranteed.

If I had to guess, I'd say Duncan is going to get something like two years and $25 million.




*cue spoiled spurs fans who don't think Duncan is worth more than $8 million*

[DPG21920]

He's earned it. Let's hope they win it all this year.


Now this time, you legitimately changed. :toast




BTW, my inflation math was a fail. It's actually closer to $12.8 million ... but point somewhat remains.

:lol

[DPG21920]

Holy :smokin

Spurs using Timvp to tell us there is a big trade coming. As Bruno pointed out, cap space isn't the goal; it's winning time

Called that one - RJ trade makes a lot more sense. Cap space wasn't an option, only move to try and contend was a trade.

That is it was an awesome trade :lol

[ducks]

offer duncan 5 years with buyout options for year 3-5
spurs then buy duncan out when he wants to retire and spurs sign duncan for a 5 year contract for 40 million contract and spurs have more capspace

[DPG21920]

It's a very tough spot for Tim, the FO & the fans. Before the variables changed, this type of talk was widely viewed as an obvious money grab by the Spurs front office: Delay actually rebuilding & knowingly not contend all to keep fans in the seats for a few extra years.

It's an incredibly tough decision for all parties involved, but clearly the worst option of the 3 (Pay Tim a lot and not contend, Tim take lower money and possibly help add pieces or let Tim walk and rebuild) is letting Tim walk.

Notch Lower.

[DPG21920]

Bold Prediction: Spurs will make a trade at the deadline and win the title this year.


Doubt it, we've got the most timid Front Office in the league.

Close.

[baseline bum]

Bump.












So KG gets $34 million over three years. Something similar for Duncan would be great for the Spurs, especially if the third year is only partially guaranteed.

If I had to guess, I'd say Duncan is going to get something like two years and $25 million.




*cue spoiled spurs fans who don't think Duncan is worth more than $8 million*

Yeah, $11-12 million per seems like fair market value for Tim, and honestly, the Spurs owe him more than that.

[timvp]

DPG21920 whining in this thread that the Spurs were on a "3 to 6 year farewell tour" now he's flooding the thread claiming how right he was because the Spurs almost won the championship? Even though he had a meltdown when they came up short? Yeah, doesn't make sense to me either.




Back on topic, the Spurs picking up Green's and especially Mills' QO tells me they are: 1) confident Duncan is coming back 2) preparing to pay him at least $10 million per year 3) not worried about him asking for a huge amount of money

[baseline bum]

^ LJ going HAM on shorty. :lol

[timvp]

BTW, factoring in this new KG contract, Garnett has made $120 million more in his career than Duncan. Duncan has some catching up to do, tbh.

[baseline bum]

BTW, factoring in this new KG contract, Garnett has made $120 million more in his career than Duncan. Duncan has some catching up to do, tbh.

And people scoffed me when I said Duncan was ridiculously underpaid thanks to the CBA that took effect before his rookie deal was up.

[Bruno]

To be honest, Garnett has been significantly better than Duncan this year. Garnett was awesome on the defensive end.

If Garnett "market value" is $11.3M per year, then Duncan should get less than $10M per year.

[DPG21920]

DPG21920 whining in this thread that the Spurs were on a "3 to 6 year farewell tour" now he's flooding the thread claiming how right he was because the Spurs almost won the championship? Even though he had a meltdown when they came up short? Yeah, doesn't make sense to me either.




Back on topic, the Spurs picking up Green's and especially Mills' QO tells me they are: 1) confident Duncan is coming back 2) preparing to pay him at least $10 million per year 3) not worried about him asking for a huge amount of money

lol revisionist history tbh...I said I thought the variables would change. I said they would make a move (something that hadn't done in the past 2-3 years) that was about basketball (and it also really helped out financially too) and that would make them contenders.

Timvp twisting words to grind an axe...shocking. I didn't meltdown. At all. Saying I didn't think the Spurs played hard in the WCF (that came straight from the players mouths and coach Pop) is not melting down, especially when I said I was proud of the overall effort looking back.

[DPG21920]

^ LJ going HAM on shorty. :lol

No - he's pissy because the Spurs lost and not everyone is :cry so damn proud. I was proud of the big picture, but not the WCF - and it wasn't just because they lost it. It was how.

[DPG21920]

And people scoffed me when I said Duncan was ridiculously underpaid thanks to the CBA that took effect before his rookie deal was up.

How can you say he is ridiculously underpaid when he is like top 6 all time?

[timvp]

To be honest, Garnett has been significantly better than Duncan this year. Garnett was awesome on the defensive end. :rolleyes Garnett had a really good defensive year but he's also on a team that relies solely on defense to win. Duncan had a really good defensive year too ... and would have been better if he didn't have to compensates for the Neals and Bonners of the team.

And really, you can't really compare Duncan and Garnett's defense. Duncan is a low post defender and rim protector while Garnett is a pick-and-roll defender and thrives moving his feet. Completely different strengths.


If Garnett "market value" is $11.3M per year, then Duncan should get less than $10M per year.:rolleyes Duncan was the best bigman in the playoffs through the first two rounds of the playoffs and was undoubtedly top five even after the WCF ... and he's worth less than $10 million?

Bruno must be trolling, tbh.

[DPG21920]

KG doesn't tell us anything - Tim's value was and is known even before KG's contract. The question hasn't changed, it is still just how much Tim wants to take and how that impacts their ability to contend.

[T Park]

How can you say he is ridiculously underpaid when he is like top 6 all time?


Because he's been the better player than Garnett and less paid?

[DesignatedT]

KG had a good year but Duncan is still more pivotal to the Spurs success than KG is to Bostons.

[DPG21920]

Because he's been the better player than Garnett and less paid?

I think the Spurs FO should pay Tim as much as he wants - I have said that from the beginning. I think it's nuts that Spurs fans that love Tim (which I am one of them) tries to paint Tim as this guy the Spurs have completely taken advantage of and try to paint him as underpaid when he's top 6 all time on the list.

Just a really strange argument to me.

[baseline bum]

How can you say he is ridiculously underpaid when he is like top 6 all time?

Because he's had a better career than guys like KG and Kobe who got paid a lot more.

[baseline bum]

I think the Spurs FO should pay Tim as much as he wants - I have said that from the beginning. I think it's nuts that Spurs fans that love Tim (which I am one of them) tries to paint Tim as this guy the Spurs have completely taken advantage of and try to paint him as underpaid when he's top 6 all time on the list.

Just a really strange argument to me.

Don't put words in my mouth, as I never said the Spurs took advantage of Tim. They paid him the most they were legally allowed to under the CBA until he voluntarily took a paycut last contract.

[DPG21920]

Because he's had a better career than guys like KG and Kobe who got paid a lot more.

Jordan, Bird & Magic say hi then.

[DPG21920]

Don't put words in my mouth, as I never said the Spurs took advantage of Tim. They paid him the most they were legally allowed to under the CBA until he voluntarily took a paycut last contract.

It wasn't just you - it's the crowd that "Spurs owe Tim so much money!!!!! because he's under paid" (which they do owe him, but it's not because he was underpaid).

So if they paid him the most they legally could, how is he underpaid?

[baseline bum]

Jordan, Bird & Magic say hi then.

The NBA didn't draw anywhere close to the same level of revenue in the days of Bird and Magic. Jordan got paid pretty handsomely at the tail end of his career (his 1998 salary still smokes any one year salary since), though he was really underpaid before 96.

[baseline bum]

It wasn't just you - it's the crowd that "Spurs owe Tim so much money!!!!! because he's under paid" (which they do owe him, but it's not because he was underpaid).

So if they paid him the most they legally could, how is he underpaid?

He's underpaid because of the individual player cap that kept him from getting the market value deal Garnett got when there wasn't one.

[DPG21920]

The only one on the top 5 highest paid list of all time that is anywhere significantly ahead of Tim that isn't better is KG. Kobe is ahead, but not by much money, Shaq is ahead and you could argue he belongs there. It's just KG.

So I don't get the argument.

[SenorSpur]

This is very good news - even though it was highly expected. If there is any player that deserves this, it's our future HOFer and franchise great - Duncan.

Now if the Spurs really want to show their appreciation to Duncan for all his contributions, get him some immediate help on the frontline.

[DPG21920]

The NBA didn't draw anywhere close to the same level of revenue in the days of Bird and Magic. Jordan got paid pretty handsomely at the tail end of his career (his 1998 salary still smokes any one year salary since), though he was really underpaid before 96.


He's underpaid because of the individual player cap that kept him from getting the market value deal Garnett got when there wasn't one.

So you can't have it both ways. Fact is, Tim made way more than the best player of all time and is still top 5-6 all time.

[timvp]

I'm not going to even engage DPG21920. He's so concerned about being able to brag about correct predictions that he spent this whole thread playing every possible angle so he could go back and quote himself. I mean dude goes from whining about an extended farewell tour due to the Spurs being cheap to predicting a Spurs championship within the same thread. I'd rather the thread attempt to stay on a singular course, tbh.





If the Spurs and Duncan haven't worked out the contract details yet, KG's deal will certainly come into play. I could see the Spurs saying: "Here's what KG got, do you want the same deal?"

[baseline bum]

So because of ranking the ~$90 million more Garnett made (not counting this contract) when he could negotiate for market value goes up in smoke? LOL, you're like arguing with a member of congress. :lol

[Bruno]

:rolleyes Duncan was the best bigman in the playoffs through the first two rounds of the playoffs and was undoubtedly top five even after the WCF ... and he's worth less than $10 million?


:rolleyes Who has been better last year, Duncan or Garnett?

To me, it's Garnett. So it's logical that Duncan has a lower market value.

Personally, Duncan very good season and the Jack trade have change the situation for Spurs. Giving him $12M per year has very little drawback because Spurs aren't in a cap space situation.

[DPG21920]

I'm not going to even engage DPG21920. He's so concerned about being able to brag about correct predictions that he spent this whole thread playing every possible angle so he could go back and quote himself. I mean dude goes from whining about an extended farewell tour due to the Spurs being cheap to predicting a Spurs championship within the same thread. I'd rather the thread attempt to stay on a singular course, tbh.
?"

Dets funny considering you stalked me in another thread where I was talking about this subject to jab at me (same convo I am having with BB).

You are again making stuff up and twisting words. Spurs weren't a contender. I said I thought they would make a trade at the deadline to make them one. I also said I think it's silly people use the Tim is under paid argument. Not that difficult tbh...

[DPG21920]

:lol Also saying I brag - It wasn't like I was bumping threads of my predictions. I went back in this thread that you bumped and re-read and found a lot amusing considering your little tantrum towards me lately.