Can someone explain why Bonner is disliked?

[Gagnrath]

He's a 6'-10" PF-C who is capable of playing good team defense, doesn't turn the ball over and averages 6 points in 18 minutes lifetime while making, 3 million per year.

He's not a good one on one defender and he's probably over played a bit (2 or 3 minutes per game) because of the spurs thin front line but everyone constantly seems down on a guy who is not only doing exactly what he was hired to do at a slightly below market price, but works hard and does a bunch of the little things while doing it.

Compare him to Chris Wilcox, Johan Petro, Josh McRoberts, Nazr Mohammed and 1 or 2 other back-up bigs in the 2 to 5 mill per year range, Bonner is as good or better than most at what he does, he's just over played because the spurs have two starting quality centers and no quality power forwards.

So I would understand if people disliked him because he was a poor teammate, a criminal, or didn't work hard. But what I don't understand is why a guy who does exactly what he is supposed to and tries to do more is disliked. Help me get it please.

[Juan]

If Bonner was black he would have tons of fans.

[mfanatic]

First of all he's no where near 6-10, he's 6-7 at best. Second of all he has no lateral quickness to guard a SF, and is too short to guard any Forwards. He has no verticle, so he can't rebound, nor does he box out. He's undersized, white, and he has red hair, can you please explain why he SHOULD be playing the amount he is?

[DesignatedT]

Bonner isn't 6'7 lmao

[benefactor]

You have obviously missed every playoff game Bonner has ever played in.

[SenorSpur]

You have obviously missed every playoff game Bonner has ever played in.

^This.

Like the change in seasons, the swallows that annually invade Capistrano or even the Sun rising in the East, Bonner's 3-pt shot surely and annually goes on vacation with the coming of April.

[timvp]

It's all about the playoffs. In the regular season, Bonner has been better than Robert Horry ever was. But come playoff time, his production falls off a cliff ... and he looks terrified in the process.

If I thought Bonner could play like he does now come the postseason, I might actually want him to start. But we've seen it too often: The playoffs will come, Bonner will get scared, other teams will notice and attack him on defense while leaving him open during clutch moments on offense, and the Spurs will end up playing 4 on 5.

Plus, when he's sucking during the regular season, it makes even less sense to trot him out for big minutes. It's difficult even to justify someone who will help you now but kill you later. It's impossible to justify someone who is hurting you now and will hurt you worse later.

[Bonner4MVPzz]

You have obviously missed every playoff game Bonner has ever played in.

[Bonner4MVPzz]

You have obviously missed every playoff game Bonner has ever played in.

[Nathan89]

If Bonner was black he would have tons of fans.

No I'm trying to imagine a black Bonner:lol

[ElNono]

He's been around for 5 seasons now? 3 getting consistent minutes?

The whole "he gets too many minutes because our frontline is thin" is baloney, tbh. He had the most minutes of any big after Tim and Dice in the playoffs last year.

Matty is who he is. Soft and a below average player. Not Horry.

[acoelho1]

For me, Bonner is fools gold. In the reg season, we can get away with his shortcomings on defense and his shooting does help space the floor but in the playoffs, those open 3's will become nonexistent and that's when he becomes a real liability. Also, if Splitter started and played 30mins a game, I don't think you would hear as much Bonner bashing. I like what he brings to the team but he should not be taking Splitter's mins.

[roycrikside]

Why is Bonner disliked?

Well defensively he doesn't rebound well, he gets overpowered all the time or has people just rip the ball from his hands. He frequently blows assignments despite an ill-deserved reputation for being a "heady" defender and gives up open 3 pt shots. Despite the perception about him, the strongest part of Bonner's game defensively is his 1-on-1 post defense. A few guys like Randolph, Al Jefferson or Griffin will dominate him, but they do that against nearly everyone. Bonner actually holds his own in this regard quite well, even though he gets zero respect from the referees (especially under the glass, where people get away with going over the back on him on rebounds more than anybody in the league).

Offensive people dislike him because his game is extremely one-dimensional, he can't create his own shot and he passes up far too many shots. He also has a history of choking in the playoffs.

Mostly people hate Bonner because Pop plays him instead of guys they want to see play like Splitter or Leonard.

[VBM]

No I'm trying to imagine a black Bonner:lol

http://wp.gameshapeinc.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/brian_cook.jpg

[ElNono]

Why is Bonner disliked?

Well defensively he doesn't rebound well, he gets overpowered all the time or has people just rip the ball from his hands. He frequently blows assignments despite an ill-deserved reputation for being a "heady" defender and gives up open 3 pt shots. Despite the perception about him, the strongest part of Bonner's game defensively is his 1-on-1 post defense. A few guys like Brandan Wright, Darrell Arthur, Randolph, Al Jefferson or Griffin will dominate him, but they do that against nearly everyone. Bonner actually holds his own in this regard quite well, even though he gets zero respect from the referees (especially under the glass, where people get away with going over the back on him on rebounds more than anybody in the league).

Offensive people dislike him because his game is extremely one-dimensional, he can't create his own shot and he passes up far too many shots. He also has a history of choking in the playoffs.

Mostly people hate Bonner because Pop plays him instead of guys they want to see play like Splitter or Leonard.

[timvp]

an ill-deserved reputation for being a "heady" defenderGood point. Bonner gets praised for being book smart or having a high IQ or whatever ... but on the basketball court he's about as dumb as a doorknob. When he has time to think instead of just react, it's shocking how often he doesn't make the right play.

[Nathan89]

http://wp.gameshapeinc.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/brian_cook.jpg

Nice find. To the other guy, black Bonner doesn't have a lot of fans and he doesn't play very often.

[roycrikside]

For the record, now that RJ is gone I think it's inexcusable for Bonner to be public enemy #1 over here instead of Blair. Blair is a far bigger liability and it's not even close. Bonner at least knows his limitations for the most part and only shoots when he's open (and sometimes not even then). Blair keeps thinking every piece of shit he throws up will go in, he has awful footwork, he is a turnover machine, he commits stupid loose ball fouls and he can't guard anybody. Anybody who's a student of the game and seriously watches will notice that Blair makes 10-20 mental mistakes in an average game (about one per minute).


The +/- disparity between the two is not a coincidence, folks. At least Bonner has proven that he can succeed with Tim or Tiago on the floor. Blair can ONLY play with Tim and even then he's often a minus player and the biggest reason the starters need the bench to bail their asses out in most games.

I'm convinced with Blair in the rotation we can't win a title, unless by some miracle we avoid Memphis, Dallas, the Lakers, Chicago and Miami. If we get another decent big to start alongside Tim we can survive with Bonner as the 4th big.

[loveforthegame]

Bonner would be fine in limited minutes or if we need another 3 point shooter on the floor.

Problem is that Pop relies on him like he's the best big we have on the team. As long as he's here nothing will change that. The best thing about getting rid of RJ is that the temptation is no longer there. Until we get rid of Bonner (and Blair) it will continue to be that way.

[VBM]

Blair's making second round draft pick money. Bonner's making 4 mil a year.

[SenorSpur]

And despite his history of playoff cowardice, what consequences does he suffer? He gets rewarded with a fresh new contract and even more faith and trust by the coach who continues to blindly hitch his wagon to him.

Another aspect of Bonner (at least the playoff version) is that he is a momentum-igniter - FOR THE OTHER TEAM - in so many ways. Allow me to explain.

His frequent 3-pt misses, create long rebounds and numerous fast break opportunities for the other team on one end. These opportunities often turn into big momentum-building swings for the opposition, while simulataneously deflating his teammates confidence because they have to compensate for his. It makes life tough on the other 4 Spurs players.

On the other end, when Bonner is guarding an opposing player, that player usually gets wide-eyed in relishing the opportunity to take him off the dribble, easily get off his shot over him or skirt by him for an offensive rebound.

If you need any further evidence, pull up highlights from any game of last spring's 1st round playoff upset with the Grizzlies. Watch how Darrell Arthur ate his lunch repeatedly - on both ends of the court.

In short, the fact that Bonner is a one-trick pony, while being a mental-midget, his shortcomings are greatly magnified in the playoffs, when playoff pressure rises and defenses tighten, along with his own buttcheeks.

It's an old song that many of us Spurs fans, myself included, are just tired of.

THAT's why he's everyone's whipping boy.

[roycrikside]

And don't even get me started on Blair's FT shooting. He made progress in that regard his second year but now he's worse than Dwight Howard. I hate the stupid look on his face he has when he shoots them. He doesn't even give a shit. He's just smiling, not even bending his knees or bending his elbows, he just flips the ball up there like it's meaningless to him if it goes in or not. I can't stand watching him at the line anymore.

[Jumi]

I like Bonner's game, but he has to produce this year in the playoffs. Another big this year, should make the team better and decrease his minutes. He is what he is! I want to see Duncan and Splitter on the floor at least three games with the majority of the minutes so people will see how that actually works. I might be wrong, but I doubt it! They'll get in each other's way!

[SenorSpur]

For the record, now that RJ is gone I think it's inexcusable for Bonner to be public enemy #1 over here instead of Blair. Blair is a far bigger liability and it's not even close. Bonner at least knows his limitations for the most part and only shoots when he's open (and sometimes not even then). Blair keeps thinking every piece of shit he throws up will go in, he has awful footwork, he is a turnover machine, he commits stupid loose ball fouls and he can't guard anybody. Anybody who's a student of the game and seriously watches will notice that Blair makes 10-20 mental mistakes in an average game (about one per minute).


The +/- disparity between the two is not a coincidence, folks. At least Bonner has proven that he can succeed with Tim or Tiago on the floor. Blair can ONLY play with Tim and even then he's often a minus player and the biggest reason the starters need the bench to bail their asses out in most games.

I'm convinced with Blair in the rotation we can't win a title, unless by some miracle we avoid Memphis, Dallas, the Lakers, Chicago and Miami. If we get another decent big to start alongside Tim we can survive with Bonner as the 4th big.

All true, but Pop doesn't overplay Blair and he certainly doesn't hesistate to bench Blair when he blows defensive assignments. It's a true double-standard in the way Pop treats Bonner versus Blair.

[ElNono]

If Bonner was black he would have tons of fans.

http://galeri4.uludagsozluk.com/120/boris-diaw_147296.jpg

[JRHernandez88]

cause he pale white with short arms and has a funny ass shooting stance.











na jp i only hate when he puts the ball ont he floor to tell you the truth...

[Russ]

If Bonner was black he would have tons of fans.

Larry Brown once called Sean Elliott the "whitest black man" he'd ever seen.

It wasn't meant as a compliment.

Can you imagine what Larry would say about the Black Bonner? :lol

[Jumi]

Larry Brown once called Sean Elliott the "whitest black person" he'd ever seen.

It wasn't meant as a compliment.

Can you imagine what Larry would say about the Black Bonner? :lol

I'm sorry, but we gotta let you go!! :lol

[Libri]

If Bonner was black he would have tons of fans.

If Bonner was Chinese he would have one billion fans.

[TJastal]

Larry Brown once called Sean Elliott the "whitest black man" he'd ever seen.

It wasn't meant as a compliment.

Can you imagine what Larry would say about the Black Bonner? :lol

This is the kind of stuff that makes my blood boil to have to read.

Sean Ell1ot was a great basketball player, and also a great human being. What the fuck could Brown find distasteful about Sean?

[pgardn]

He is a critical player for slicing into double digit leads in the regular season when the opposition gets lazy.

Unfortunately this does not translate into 4 million dollars per year when he does not make an impact in the playoffs.

Pop likes this type of player of limited ability because they do what they are told. They are team players. They must be. Not enough ability to screw up with any regularity making poor individual decisions. There are very few decisions to make with little to no ability in most aspects of the game.

And its not that he is white, its that he is perfectly stiff. Basketball is supposed to be a beautiful game, flowing, individual gymnastics with a ball type stuff. Bonner is possibly the least fluid player in the NBA at his position. Really a small foward that cant make his own, cant rebound very well, and cant play D.

If he shot like Shawn Marion he would be burned at the stake. If he ever airballed 2 Free throws in a row ala Blake Griffin, he would be castrated because he does not have their ability. But he is arguably the best 3 point shooter in the league when left open. Arguably. He gets it off fairly quickly but, 3 pointer under pressure, no.

[timvp]

For the record, now that RJ is gone I think it's inexcusable for Bonner to be public enemy #1 over here instead of Blair. Blair is a far bigger liability and it's not even close.

Disagree.

1. Blair's role is a role that can't really hurt the Spurs too much. He basically just starts each half and sometimes plays in the second quarter if he did well in his first stint or there's foul trouble.

2. Yeah, Blair's poor plus/minus is worrisome but Nazr Mohammad played the same role and had a bad plus/minus during the 2005 championship run and it didn't really hurt the Spurs.

3. Blair has shown some glimpses of not succumbing to pressure. In fact, outside of Manu, Blair was the only player to have a positive plus/minus against the Grizzlies last season.

4. Bonner's role as being the bigman next to Duncan in the clutch allows him to be much more damaging than anything Blair can do in his current role. Bonner can literally lose playoff games. Even if Blair sucks, it's pretty difficult to be the culprit of a playoff loss when he sits out the final 18 minutes of the game.


I'm not arguing that Blair is better than Bonner, I just disagree that he's more of a liability to the team.

[pgardn]

This is the kind of stuff that makes my blood boil to have to read.

Sean Ell1ot was a great basketball player, and also a great human being. What the fuck could Brown find distasteful about Sean?

Brown pushes buttons on players that he thinks are talented. He hounded Sean without mercy. Sean took it personally. The best coaches know how to push the right buttons on specific individuals, Phil Jackson being the master. Larry Brown teaches basketball, but has no time for relating to individuals. Which is part of the reason why he is a nomad.

-Dr. Phil again.

[Duncan2177]

He's a 6'-10" PF-C who is capable of playing good team defense, doesn't turn the ball over and averages 6 points in 18 minutes lifetime while making, 3 million per year.

He's not a good one on one defender and he's probably over played a bit (2 or 3 minutes per game) because of the spurs thin front line but everyone constantly seems down on a guy who is not only doing exactly what he was hired to do at a slightly below market price, but works hard and does a bunch of the little things while doing it.

Compare him to Chris Wilcox, Johan Petro, Josh McRoberts, Nazr Mohammed and 1 or 2 other back-up bigs in the 2 to 5 mill per year range, Bonner is as good or better than most at what he does, he's just over played because the spurs have two starting quality centers and no quality power forwards.

So I would understand if people disliked him because he was a poor teammate, a criminal, or didn't work hard. But what I don't understand is why a guy who does exactly what he is supposed to and tries to do more is disliked. Help me get it please.

:lol

[Arcadian]

I like him as a person. He seems cool. Are some of you seriously using his skin and hair color as reasons? Haha, fuck you guys.

I will admit his shooting form is awkward. I mean, I'm a big white guy, but I can at least shoot a ball with traditional form.

...But then I remember that Bonner is an NBA player, and I'm not. So he would probably kick my ass.

[timvp]

If Bonner was black he would have tons of fans.

2012 Richard Jefferson = Matt Bonner clone = Didn't have a ton of fans

[SenorSpur]

This doesn't have a damn thing to do with skin color. It's about production. You don't see very many her criticizing Splitter. As a matter of fact, many on here would like to sacrifice Bonner's minutes in order to get Splitter time alongside of Duncan. Most posters have been begging for Pop to do so.

Therefore, that racial angle is a moot one.

[TJastal]

Brown pushes buttons on players that he thinks are talented. He hounded Sean without mercy. Sean took it personally. The best coaches know how to push the right buttons on specific individuals, Phil Jackson being the master. Larry Brown teaches basketball, but has no time for relating to individuals. Which is part of the reason why he is a nomad.

-Dr. Phil again.

I'm not sure i'm buying what you're selling. I'd have to believe that insulting a players' racial makeup is now used as a basketball motivational tool.

[Hooks]

If Bonner was black he would have tons of fans.


Ginobili and Tiago are both white boys and everybody loves them lol.

[pgardn]

I'm not sure i'm buying what you're selling. I'd have to believe that insulting a players' racial makeup is now used as a basketball motivational tool.

It is for Brown imo. I would almost guarantee Brown got on Iverson about his playground game. "You wanna be just another ________ from the hood just doing as you please."

I have to believe something similar to this was said.

Brown probably got away with quite a bit of this technique because players probably dont see Brown as a racist. Sean does not have the cultural nuances of the sterotyped NBA African American and had probably been kidded about it many times by teammates. And I bet it really got Sean hacked and probably even pouted.

My product based on my experiences and a little background into the North Carolina lineage of coaches of which Brown is somewhat of a maverick.

-are ya buyin Ms. Cleo(me)?

[Stump]

I don't want to blame Bonner too much. He seems to be a real team player and a hard worker. We all know he has a number of flaws, but at least he's a known entity.

Most of the blame falls on Pop. It is his decision to give him such a huge role on the team year after year. I hate saying this, because there is way too much Pop hating on this board, but his stubbornness in regards to Bonner is both bizarre and exhausting to Spurs fans.

[buujness]

I guess that I'm just going to be beating a dead horse at this point, but here goes:

Matt Bonner is extremely one-dimensional on the offensive end, in that all he can really do well is shoot threes. He can't handle (and thus, he can't drive the ball), he doesn't have particularly good court vision, and his passing isn't anything to really write home about, and, due to the fact that he's always hanging out near the three-point line, he doesn't get any offensive rebounds. Not to mention that you can't count on him making shots because even the best three-point shooters in the Association are going to miss more often than someone who can convert up close to the rim, so, while that 6 PPG looks in 18 MPG looks great, it's fools gold, because you can't count on him for 6 PPG consistently (some games, he'll get you 15, and the next one he'll put up zeroes across the board). And, as someone else mentioned, when he does miss, the rebound is going to be a long one that a smaller, much quicker player can get and just beat Bonner in a race to the other basket, and get easy points.

Plus, all of that is assuming he can even get his shot off: while he's listed at 6'10", he shoots from an almost squatting position while launching from his shoulder, so it is a much easier shot to block than it should be, considering how tall he is. So, if someone closes out on him correctly, he becomes completely neutralized, and thus just about completely useless. Contrast this with Horry, who shot from an upright position and launched from his forehead, at 6'10", making it so that his shot was almost impossible to block (see: Game 5, 2005 Finals when he shot over Rasheed Wallace).

That is how he's like on the offensive end; the end he is BETTER on.

Defensively, while he can use his slightly underrated bulk to perform nearly-adequate post defense (and he can't even do that consistently), he's not quick enough to stay in front of more athletic players, he's not long enough to challenge ANY shot from another PF, and he's not intimidating enough to play good help defense at the rim (in part, because of the other limitations already listed). And, even if someone misses the shot, Bonner lacks the ability to adequately box out his counterpart and the athleticism to just go up and get it, which leads to him not being able to grab the board in traffic (a very underrated skill), and that leads to more second chances for the other team. And, as has been pointed out, he really is not good in making rotations, so you have that on top of everything else.

And that is just during the regular season. Perhaps his worst flaw is that he's a notorious playoff choker, and that is absolutely unforgivable in a league where over half the teams make the playoffs. The regular season doesn't matter all that much, and when the "real" season starts, he pulls a Houdini and disappears in front of our eyes.

All in all, Bonner's a very one-dimensional player whose lone dimension is just about neutralized relatively easily, especially when teams can form a gameplan against you like they can in the playoffs.

Yet, despite all of this, he still is in the rotation for a team that is in contention (or close to it) to win the championship every year, and he is consistently a liability in that pursuit.

That is why Bonner is disliked.

PS: I'm sorry for the length; people don't usually like reading essays; just felt like I had to get that out of my system.

[TJastal]

It is for Brown imo. I would almost guarantee Brown got on Iverson about his playground game. "You wanna be just another ________ from the hood just doing as you please."

I have to believe something similar to this was said.

Brown probably got away with quite a bit of this technique because players probably dont see Brown as a racist. Sean does not have the cultural nuances of the sterotyped NBA African American and had probably been kidded about it many times by teammates. And I bet it really got Sean hacked and probably even pouted.

My product based on my experiences and a little background into the North Carolina lineage of coaches of which Brown is somewhat of a maverick.

-are ya buyin Ms. Cleo(me)?

Not quite yet.

You've told us Brown got on Iverson to cut out the _______ nuances, yet chided Sean (along with teammates apparently) for not acting more like ________?

Sounds like Brown is a tad two faced.

[angelbelow]

First of all I don't think any dislikes Bonner on a personal level. Hes a funny guy and probably a good teammate to have around.

Some of the Bonner hate is justified but some of it is not. For example, Bonner being a known choker makes you wonder why hes in the rotation at all. But that's really on Pop because Bonner is Bonner.

[pgardn]

Not quite yet.

You've told us Brown got on Iverson to cut out the _______ nuances, yet chided Sean (along with teammates apparently) for not acting more like ________?

Sounds like Brown is a tad two faced.

Whatever it takes to get into a players head and under their "skin". You can go either way. I would not be surprised if he told a white player he did not have the ability to go playground or conversely tell him he played like a stiff if he thought he was athletically talented.

Whatever to piss the player off. Take on any face you want.

-Sigmund Freud

[$pursDynasty]

Fans have their favorites and their goats. In the heat of the moment this weekend, OKC and Dallas I read posts people talking about getting rid of TP when he is by far the best player on the team and having an MVP season. I'd say why do so many people hate Blair. Neither he or Bonner are the prototypical power forward and each are liabilities against prototypical power forwards but they both bring somthing to the table. That being said Ginger and Blair rarely get praise on this board. Blair had a monster game in OKC and yet he was only reluctantly given any praise at all. Yet some (ahem Splitter) can garner more praise for running up and down the court twice without tripping over his own feet, because he moves just like Wilt. Seriously it seemed like there were more Pro Splitter posts in a game he only played two minutes than there were Pro Blair ones in the OKC game where he put up the best numbers you could expect from him. I want all the Spurs to succeed b/c that will get us another couple of titles. I like Splitter and I think part of his appeal is he is more what we expect from a PF. I hate it when a 6'11" guy puts up too many threes, b/c growing up that is not what power forwards did when I was growing up, but I can't deny it is what makes Dirk and Durant special and a matchup nightmare.

[ducks]

if he would rebound and if he would stop someone on d
he has what 2 blocks all year

[jag]

^This.

Like the change in seasons, the swallows that annually invade Capistrano or even the Sun rising in the East, Bonner's 3-pt shot surely and annually goes on vacation with the coming of April.

:lol Gold

[roycrikside]

Disagree.

1. Blair's role is a role that can't really hurt the Spurs too much. He basically just starts each half and sometimes plays in the second quarter if he did well in his first stint or there's foul trouble.

2. Yeah, Blair's poor plus/minus is worrisome but Nazr Mohammad played the same role and had a bad plus/minus during the 2005 championship run and it didn't really hurt the Spurs.

3. Blair has shown some glimpses of not succumbing to pressure. In fact, outside of Manu, Blair was the only player to have a positive plus/minus against the Grizzlies last season.

4. Bonner's role as being the bigman next to Duncan in the clutch allows him to be much more damaging than anything Blair can do in his current role. Bonner can literally lose playoff games. Even if Blair sucks, it's pretty difficult to be the culprit of a playoff loss when he sits out the final 18 minutes of the game.


I'm not arguing that Blair is better than Bonner, I just disagree that he's more of a liability to the team.

you don't think that in a game like last night against Dallas for example Blair had more to do with the loss than Bonner? Imho he was so poor in both the first and third quarters that it put the team in too big of a hole to recover in the second and fourth. Obviously Manu and Tony didn't help matters at all, but I thought Blair was pretty horrendous.

[Cow Eye]

The playoffs will come, Bonner will get scared, other teams will notice and attack him on defense while leaving him open during clutch moments on offense, and the Spurs will end up playing 4 on 5.

^This.

And to the OP, I'm not particularly impressed with his team defense either. I've watched him too many times completely miss rotations.

[therealtruth]

I like Bonner's game, but he has to produce this year in the playoffs. Another big this year, should make the team better and decrease his minutes. He is what he is! I want to see Duncan and Splitter on the floor at least three games with the majority of the minutes so people will see how that actually works. I might be wrong, but I doubt it! They'll get in each other's way!

The one playoff series the Spurs have won since '08 is the one where Pop limited Bonner's minutes. Pop's got to know when he can play Bonner and when he can't. Some matchups are just bad for him.

[therealtruth]

All true, but Pop doesn't overplay Blair and he certainly doesn't hesistate to bench Blair when he blows defensive assignments. It's a true double-standard in the way Pop treats Bonner versus Blair.

Exactly who did Pop relegate to the end of the bench against the Grizzlies? Blair despite his lack of height was a better match for the Grizzlies because of his activity level and rebounding. That was not Bonner's series.

[DeadlyDynasty]

No dislike here:tu

[therealtruth]

I don't want to blame Bonner too much. He seems to be a real team player and a hard worker. We all know he has a number of flaws, but at least he's a known entity.

Most of the blame falls on Pop. It is his decision to give him such a huge role on the team year after year. I hate saying this, because there is way too much Pop hating on this board, but his stubbornness in regards to Bonner is both bizarre and exhausting to Spurs fans.

And you wonder why there is so much Pop hating.

[Airgentina]

Call him Fire Marshall Bill, cause he's always getting burned.

[therealtruth]

He can't handle (and thus, he can't drive the ball), he doesn't have particularly good court vision, and his passing isn't anything to really write home about, and, due to the fact that he's always hanging out near the three-point line, he doesn't get any offensive rebounds.

Most stretch 4's are able to put the ball on the floor when you close out on them. You remember Horry's dunk in '05. I don't remember Horry being run of the 3pt line and then looking like he didn't know what to do. Also Bonner's got an awkward shot that bounces hard of the rim and travels slowly. That allows for long rebounds and for the defense to predict it's path more easily.

[DMC]

I think most people like Bonner but they don't want his role being stretched to aspects he cannot handle. It's not on Bonner to say "I suck at that coach". Pop knows already. Hell, I would play those minutes for that money and suck even worse, but I would do it.

[Obstructed_View]

Well, it should really be Pop who's disliked for taking a role player who should be getting 5-15 minutes a night depending on his shooting and made him either a starter or the first big off the bench for the better part of his time here.


Poor standing reach for his height
Sucks under pressure
Easy for teams to exploit in the post
Makes stupid mistakes on both ends of the floor
Takes minutes away from better players
Can't run the floor
Won't jump
Can't defend one on one on the perimeter
Can't defend one on one in the post
Refuses to wrap up, instead throwing both hands straight in the air when the whistle blows
Can't create his own shot
Can't set screens
Can't get open in the playoffs
Can't rebound
Can't block shots

[Obstructed_View]

And you wonder why there is so much Pop hating.

Reason for so much Pop hating: :pop:

[Gagnrath]

Ok so it comes down to Bonner is worth his $3,315,000 per year in an NBA sense however because he is overplayed other teams and our teams fans focus on his weaknesses.....

Got it, now can we start hating on RC Buford for not acquiring a a 6'9" or better fast power forward with leaping ability and long arms with enough strength to bang in the low post, and a decent % from 15'? Oh he's a lush as well.

[Obstructed_View]

So you didn't really want an answer, you just wanted a fight?

[Marco]

Bonner's only fault is not asking for a trade. All the rest is on Pop.

[Ice009]

And despite his history of playoff cowardice, what consequences does he suffer? He gets rewarded with a fresh new contract and even more faith and trust by the coach who continues to blindly hitch his wagon to him.

Another aspect of Bonner (at least the playoff version) is that he is a momentum-igniter - FOR THE OTHER TEAM - in so many ways. Allow me to explain.

His frequent 3-pt misses, create long rebounds and numerous fast break opportunities for the other team on one end. These opportunities often turn into big momentum-building swings for the opposition, while simulataneously deflating his teammates confidence because they have to compensate for his. It makes life tough on the other 4 Spurs players.

On the other end, when Bonner is guarding an opposing player, that player usually gets wide-eyed in relishing the opportunity to take him off the dribble, easily get off his shot over him or skirt by him for an offensive rebound.

If you need any further evidence, pull up highlights from any game of last spring's 1st round playoff upset with the Grizzlies. Watch how Darrell Arthur ate his lunch repeatedly - on both ends of the court.

In short, the fact that Bonner is a one-trick pony, while being a mental-midget, his shortcomings are greatly magnified in the playoffs, when playoff pressure rises and defenses tighten, along with his own buttcheeks.

It's an old song that many of us Spurs fans, myself included, are just tired of.

THAT's why he's everyone's whipping boy.

Great take, 100% accurate.

Bonner is hated because he almost shits his pants under playoff pressure. The real Pop would have gotten rid of a player like Bonner after failing twice in the playoffs, but in this rare case he rewarded him with another contract. That is what is most shocking to me, Pop never used to resign and bring back playoff chokers, if you choked multiple times in the playoffs you were sent packing.

Hedo was not wanted back, Nick Van Exel let go of very quickly, Beno Udrih was dumped, Roger Mason Jr. sent packing, RJ traded. Those are a few of the more well known players that were sent away because of their lack of playoff fortitude.

How in the heck was Bonner resigned?

[Drz]

For those who hate Bonner because of his hair/skin color:
You are true idiots. Not message board idiots, but true, real-life idiots.

For those who hate Bonner because of his personality:
I hope angelbelow was correct when he said "I don't think any dislikes Bonner on a personal level. Hes a funny guy and probably a good teammate to have around." But if there ARE people who think that, watch his Coach B videos. He's a quirky, funny guy. Seems dorky. If you don't like the dorky personality, you're probably jealous that he's better at basketball than you'll ever be at anything in your life.

http://www.nba.com/spurs/multimedia/fundamentals_of_the_game_with_coach_b_lesson_1.htm l

For those who hate Bonner because of his defense:
There are a lot of poor defenders in the NBA. At least he tries. And it's not even that bad. Here's part of Hollinger's 2011-12 Bonner profile:

Defensively, Bonner has improved in his time in San Antonio. He won't rebound or block shots but he gets to the right spots and is strong enough to hold his position on the block. I would still place him below the median power forward, but he's not far off.

For those who hate Bonner because of his playoff troubles:
You folks are the ones I wish I could help, because you mean well, but you are misguided. Matt Bonner has played 430 minutes of postseason play in his NBA career. I hope you are smart enough to draw your own conclusions from that.

Anyone who thinks his defense slips in the playoffs, or that he looks scared in the playoffs, is basing that on gut feel and what they saw on the TV. They have to be, because there isn't near enough data. Their misconceptions are fueled by preconceived notions already in their head.

Smart Bonner-haters will now take a step back and think, hmm, it IS true that I have a pre-conceived notion of Bonner, and yes, I am aware that it is extremely well-documented that it's near impossible to be unbiased in such a case. Perhaps I should reconsider my view.

Dumb Bonner-haters will not think at all, and just keep right on hating. Are you dumb? You probably are, and that is sad.

[dbestpro]

Blair still ranks higher on my hate-o-meter. Bonner only gets elevated marks when he gets more minutes than Splitter.

[Obstructed_View]

For those who hate Bonner because of his defense:
There are a lot of poor defenders in the NBA. At least he tries. And it's not even that bad. Here's part of Hollinger's 2011-12 Bonner profile:

Defensively, Bonner has improved in his time in San Antonio. He won't rebound or block shots but he gets to the right spots and is strong enough to hold his position on the block. I would still place him below the median power forward, but he's not far off.

First of all, :lol "at least he tries" :lol

Second, he gets more minutes than anyone but Duncan and he can't block or rebound? Also, he DOESN'T hold his position on the block. He's below the median power forward in the NBA, which includes starters, backups and scrubs. Considering the percentage he shoots from three point range, that's in no way good. So the Spurs spent more than a season starting a guy who might not even be third string on some teams.




For those who hate Bonner because of his playoff troubles:
You folks are the ones I wish I could help, because you mean well, but you are misguided. Matt Bonner has played 430 minutes of postseason play in his NBA career. I hope you are smart enough to draw your own conclusions from that.
That the Spurs have won only one playoff series in the three years that Bonner's been expected to be a major contributor? Yep.

Nobody's spent more time defending Bonner than I have. It's never been his fault that he's out of position and asked to do too much. Great. That's long established. He still isn't someone the Spurs should be relying on, and it would improve the team greatly if he snapped an ankle very soon. We can still enjoy the cute and funny videos he makes while he's rehabbing.

[The Truth #6]

Bonner is the ultimate Pop System player: has a specific talent/role, took Pop's abuse and survived, memorizes the plays and plays robotically, and never complains. A perfect pawn in Pop's chess game, so to speak.

Unfortunately, he has about zero "feel for the game".

[ElNono]

Anyone who thinks his defense slips in the playoffs, or that he looks scared in the playoffs, is basing that on gut feel and what they saw on the TV. They have to be, because there isn't near enough data.

No. And not true. There's 3 seasons worth of data to compare against his playoffs performances. It's been posted and re-hashed here, and his dropoff is abysmal...

I posted some numbers in the offseason and timvp posted some of the advanced stat numbers on a thread not long ago. Feel free to use the search feature and make informed opinions.

[Drz]

Second, he gets more minutes than anyone but Duncan and he can't block or rebound?
Not sure where you got your info. His 21.0 mpg is 8th on the team, behind (in order) Parker, Duncan, Leonard, Green, Ginobili, Neal, and Blair.

Also, he DOESN'T hold his position on the block. He's below the median power forward in the NBA, which includes starters, backups and scrubs. Considering the percentage he shoots from three point range, that's in no way good.
Again, not sure I understand where you're coming from. You're saying the 7th highest 3 pt. % in the NBA (.449) shouldn't be below the median defender? Do you realize that "below the median" means bottom half? That'd be awfully swell if a 3 point specialist were a top half defender, but it's faaaaar from a requirement.

That the Spurs have won only one playoff series in the three years that Bonner's been expected to be a major contributor? Yep.
Yes, clearly this was Bonner's fault. If he'd made his career .418 mark, we'd have scored 18 more points over those 32 playoff games!! That's OVER half a point per game, WOW!!!

[Drz]

No. And not true. There's 3 seasons worth of data to compare against his playoffs performances. It's been posted and re-hashed here, and his dropoff is abysmal...

I posted some numbers in the offseason and timvp posted some of the advanced stat numbers on a thread not long ago. Feel free to use the search feature and make informed opinions.
My job is that of a statistician, and I posted my critique in timvp's thread. I got lambasted for it. I read the critiques and decided it wasn't worth the time to respond.

[Brazil]

For those who hate Bonner because of his hair/skin color:
You are true idiots. Not message board idiots, but true, real-life idiots.

For those who hate Bonner because of his personality:
I hope angelbelow was correct when he said "I don't think any dislikes Bonner on a personal level. Hes a funny guy and probably a good teammate to have around." But if there ARE people who think that, watch his Coach B videos. He's a quirky, funny guy. Seems dorky. If you don't like the dorky personality, you're probably jealous that he's better at basketball than you'll ever be at anything in your life.

http://www.nba.com/spurs/multimedia/fundamentals_of_the_game_with_coach_b_lesson_1.htm l

For those who hate Bonner because of his defense:
There are a lot of poor defenders in the NBA. At least he tries. And it's not even that bad. Here's part of Hollinger's 2011-12 Bonner profile:

Defensively, Bonner has improved in his time in San Antonio. He won't rebound or block shots but he gets to the right spots and is strong enough to hold his position on the block. I would still place him below the median power forward, but he's not far off.

For those who hate Bonner because of his playoff troubles:
You folks are the ones I wish I could help, because you mean well, but you are misguided. Matt Bonner has played 430 minutes of postseason play in his NBA career. I hope you are smart enough to draw your own conclusions from that.

Anyone who thinks his defense slips in the playoffs, or that he looks scared in the playoffs, is basing that on gut feel and what they saw on the TV. They have to be, because there isn't near enough data. Their misconceptions are fueled by preconceived notions already in their head.

Smart Bonner-haters will now take a step back and think, hmm, it IS true that I have a pre-conceived notion of Bonner, and yes, I am aware that it is extremely well-documented that it's near impossible to be unbiased in such a case. Perhaps I should reconsider my view.

Dumb Bonner-haters will not think at all, and just keep right on hating. Are you dumb? You probably are, and that is sad.

maybe one of the best GNSF post of the year

[Brazil]

My job is that of a statistician, and I posted my critique in timvp's thread. I got lambasted for it. I read the critiques and decided it wasn't worth the time to respond.

stop the stat just watch the games

[ElNono]

My job is that of a statistician, and I posted my critique in timvp's thread. I got lambasted for it. I read the critiques and decided it wasn't worth the time to respond.

As others pointed out, this FO let other players walk with a much smaller sample size for the same reasons. So either you're pretty shitty at your job, or the FO doesn't need as much of a sample size to come to those conclusions.

I'll side with you being shitty at your job.

[timvp]

:lol Bonner's level of play doesn't decline in the playoffs, it's just a small sample size :lol

Everything points to Bonner's play dropping in the playoffs. Pick any possible criteria and it gets worse. His plus/minus drops off a cliff. Every single statistically category falls off a cliff. Subjectively he falls off a cliff.

Yeah, it'd be great if he got 2,000 minutes in the playoffs to prove himself one way or another. But that's not the reality of playoff basketball. You have a short time to create your legacy ... that's just the way it is.

[timvp]

you don't think that in a game like last night against Dallas for example Blair had more to do with the loss than Bonner? Imho he was so poor in both the first and third quarters that it put the team in too big of a hole to recover in the second and fourth. Obviously Manu and Tony didn't help matters at all, but I thought Blair was pretty horrendous.

Last night was an anomaly, tbh. Posting a -19 in 15 and a half minutes obviously hurt the Spurs but it's not like that's a typical Blair night. He usually has a plus/minus around 0 and doesn't have much influence a game one way or the other.

Bonner, on the other hand, is given a role that directly allows him to lose games if he plays poorly enough. Especially in the playoffs.

[ElNono]

Blair is probably just as much of a liability on defense, but he has a higher ceiling. It's not out of the question that he can give you a double-double on a given night. Certainly out of the question for Matt.

[buujness]

Lol, advanced statistics.

You can bring up stats until you're blue in the face, but no matter how many you bring up, they won't tell you the whole story. Unlike in baseball (where advanced metrics are actually very useful), basketball stats are, while important, not truly indicative of the quality of the player.

Almost all of Bonner's flaws put the team in a real bind, in that they almost always either directly lead to points for the other team (missed 3s and ensuing long rebounds, lack of defensive rebounding leading to the other team having second possessions, not a good help/team defender, etc). And while the flaws of other players also lead to points, their strengths often can offset those by getting easy points on offense, or just being really good at limiting the opponent on defense, Blair notwithstanding. I really can't say the same for Bonner, as his one strength is not consistent and otherwise easily neutralized.

I don't hate Bonner as a person, but he is just not a rotation-quality player on a playoff team, IMO.

[therealtruth]

I don't hate Bonner as a person, but he is just not a rotation-quality player on a playoff team, IMO.

That's it in its simplest. No other playoff coach is playing Bonner even close to as much as he plays or even at all.

[silverblk mystix]

Because he is a pussy and he sucks balls....


Watch a game.

Any player....guard/forward/center can and will take Bonner straight to the rack and score over him....every fuckin' time....

Watch a game next time and when you see a guard who is 6'0 to 6'2 go straight at Bonner all the way to the rim and lay it in...then you will know how much Bonner sucks...

I cannot think of any other NBA player who is 6'10'' and who ALLOWS point guards to take him strong to the basket and just fearlessly lay it in everytime....

This is a player with no balls and a player with no heart....he plain just sucks.

He might be a nice guy and has a deprecating sense of humor...but he really sucks as an NBA player....and the coach is too stupid to realize that this guy is killing the team.

Very good reasons for disliking Bonner.

[Drz]

As others pointed out, this FO let other players walk with a much smaller sample size for the same reasons. So either you're pretty shitty at your job, or the FO doesn't need as much of a sample size to come to those conclusions.

I'll side with you being shitty at your job.
In case you are too stupid to realize how stupid you are, the flaw in your logic is that there are quite a few more alternatives than the two you presented.


:lol Bonner's level of play doesn't decline in the playoffs, it's just a small sample size :lol

Everything points to Bonner's play dropping in the playoffs. Pick any possible criteria and it gets worse. His plus/minus drops off a cliff. Every single statistically category falls off a cliff. Subjectively he falls off a cliff.

Yeah, it'd be great if he got 2,000 minutes in the playoffs to prove himself one way or another. But that's not the reality of playoff basketball. You have a short time to create your legacy ... that's just the way it is.
If you used the past tense, you'd be correct. "Dropped" off... "Fell" off... by using the present tense, you leave it ambiguous as to whether or not his past troubles mean he will continue to have trouble in the future. Based on your past posts, I believe you think he'll have poor playoff performance in the future, which is why I've attacked your beliefs. But let me know if I'm wrong and I'll happily get off your case.


Last night was an anomaly, tbh. Posting a -19 in 15 and a half minutes obviously hurt the Spurs but it's not like that's a typical Blair night. He usually has a plus/minus around 0 and doesn't have much influence a game one way or the other.
That's odd that you'd cite +/-. Are you not aware Bonner is the Spurs' adjusted plus/minus leader this year? Over Parker, over Duncan, over everybody. Don't bother pointing me to the articles of apm's flaws, I'm already aware.

Edit: Looks like he is the unadjusted leader too, see link below. I'm very curious to hear what you have to say about this. For the love of god, please don't let it be a Jim Mora-like "pleaayoffsssss!!!"

http://www.nba.com/statistics/plusminus/plusminus_sort.jsp?pcomb=1&season=22011&split=9&team=Spurs

I have a lot of respect for the work and effort you put into this site. I'm truly hoping you'll dig deeper into Bonner's play and understand how he helps the Spurs win games. "Spreading the floor" isn't just some fun phrase that doesn't mean much. It's revolutionized the game for teams that have realized its value.

Do you watch hockey? If you do, you've seen the vast increase in offense when it's 4 on 4 instead of 5 on 5. The increase is MASSIVE. Now, imagine a hockey team that plays all its offense 4 on 4, but somehow keeps its defense 5 on 5. That's huge, right? That's what Bonner brings to the table. He could sit there on the 3 point line and eat a hoagie or drop a deuce, but as long as teams have to respect his shot, he's doing more for the Spurs winning games than almost anyone else on the team.


Lol, advanced statistics.

You can bring up stats until you're blue in the face, but no matter how many you bring up, they won't tell you the whole story.
Very true!


Unlike in baseball (where advanced metrics are actually very useful), basketball stats are, while important, not truly indicative of the quality of the player.
Very false! And very small-minded. Yes, baseball stats are easier to interpret due to the more individual nature of the sport, but that does NOT imply they are not indicative of the quality of the player. I wonder if you think that because you struggle to understand them, and your feeble mind thinks "gosh, I can't handle this, I'll just bash them! Dem der stats r bad!!!"



Almost all of Bonner's flaws put the team in a real bind, in that they almost always either directly lead to points for the other team (missed 3s and ensuing long rebounds, lack of defensive rebounding leading to the other team having second possessions, not a good help/team defender, etc). And while the flaws of other players also lead to points, their strengths often can offset those by getting easy points on offense, or just being really good at limiting the opponent on defense, Blair notwithstanding. I really can't say the same for Bonner, as his one strength is not consistent and otherwise easily neutralized.

You clearly pulled this out of your ass. There is no supporting evidence for this. I'm sure you'll trot out the "I watch the games!" line, which any respectable analyst would know is bullshit.


(A bunch of a bullshit that makes him look mentally handicapped)
silverblk mystix, of all the Bonner basher posts, yours was easily the dumbest and least coherent. You are doing the other Bonner bashers a disservice by posting in this thread. Your stupidity reflects poorly on them. You would be doing all of us a favor by leaving this thread. Thank you.

[ElNono]

In case you are too stupid to realize how stupid you are, the flaw in your logic is that there are quite a few more alternatives than the two you presented.

So you agree his production drops dramatically in the playoffs, stats-wise...

Because it's either that or you're just suck at your job...

[ElNono]

:lmao teams respect his shot after OJ Mayo makes him put the ball on the floor

[Drz]

So you agree his production drops dramatically in the playoffs, stats-wise...

Because it's either that or you're just suck at your job...
I addressed that in the middle of my blob of a post. But to repeat: I agree his production has dropped in the playoffs, stats-wise. I do not agree that his production is any more or less likely to be better or worse than his career norms in the playoffs going forward.

So far the only counter-argument I've seen was essentially "sample sizes are always going to be too small, so deal with it, because it's the best we've got." That is not an effective argument.

[DesignatedT]

Well played Drz. Not many around here would be willing to take that stance. It's nothing but blame Bonner 24/7 here and while I would personally like to see another big signed and Bonner's minutes be slightly decreased, I do agree with some of your points.

[ElNono]

I addressed that in the middle of my blob of a post. But to repeat: I agree his production has dropped in the playoffs, stats-wise. I do not agree that his production is any more or less likely to be better or worse than his career norms in the playoffs going forward.

You don't know that. Statistically speaking, he's just as likely to keep choking.

Now I want to know why would anybody respect a 33% 3 point shooter (http://www.nba.com/statistics/player/3PointS.jsp?league=00&season=42010&conf=OVERALL&position=0&splitType=9&splitScope=GAME&qualified=Y&yearsExp=-1&splitDD=) in the playoffs.

Memphis didn't, and rightly so.

[Spurs da champs]

You don't know that. Statistically speaking, he's just as likely to keep choking.

Now I want to know why would anybody respect a 33% 3 point shooter (http://www.nba.com/statistics/player/3PointS.jsp?league=00&season=42010&conf=OVERALL&position=0&splitType=9&splitScope=GAME&qualified=Y&yearsExp=-1&splitDD=) in the playoffs.

Memphis didn't, and rightly so.

Wow I thought it was lower.

[ElNono]

So far the only counter-argument I've seen was essentially "sample sizes are always going to be too small, so deal with it, because it's the best we've got." That is not an effective argument.

Effective or not, it's true. You don't get to say what the sample size should be. It's what we have, and he chokes. What's worse, he's a terrible defender, and the stats back it up.

[ElNono]

Wow I thought it was lower.

Career-wise, it's marginally lower... 32%... and that's all he brings to the team...

[Drz]

Well played Drz. Not many around here would be willing to take that stance. It's nothing but blame Bonner 24/7 here and while I would personally like to see another big signed and Bonner's minutes be slightly decreased, I do agree with some of your points.
Thank you friend. :lobt: I normally just lurk here, but for some reason the misinformation on this site about Bonner gets me going.



You don't know that. Statistically speaking, he's just as likely to keep choking.
"Statistically speaking?" I'm not a regular here, so I don't know if you're giving me a good trolljob. No, what your saying is false. Factually false, not opinion false. That's like saying "I rolled a die three times and it came up 6 all three times, so statistically speaking, it's just as likely to come up 6 again." Not true.


Now I want to know why would anybody respect a 33% 3 point shooter (http://www.nba.com/statistics/player/3PointS.jsp?league=00&season=42010&conf=OVERALL&position=0&splitType=9&splitScope=GAME&qualified=Y&yearsExp=-1&splitDD=) in the playoffs.

Because the teams employ people faaaaaar smarter than you who realize that if he took those same shots another 1,000 times, they'd probably go in somewhere around 418 times.

[Drz]

What's worse, he's a terrible defender, and the stats back it up.
I believe I have caught you with your foot in your mouth. Please provide the stats to back this statement up. Good luck.

[ElNono]

"Statistically speaking?" I'm not a regular here, so I don't know if you're giving me a good trolljob. No, what your saying is false. Factually false, not opinion false. That's like saying "I rolled a die three times and it came up 6 all three times, so statistically speaking, it's just as likely to come up 6 again." Not true.

He can keep on choking or he can stop choking. Mathematically speaking, it's 50/50, thus it's absolutely true he's "as likely to keep on choking".

The thing is, we're not dealing with this in a vacuum. There are reasons why he's less effective in the playoffs, and that has a lot to do with playoff basketball, where matchups dictates a lot of the offense and defense, and where liabilities like Matt can be plan for and abused.


Because the teams employ people faaaaaar smarter than you who realize that if he took those same shots another 1,000 times, they'd probably go in somewhere around 418 times.

He has taken 1,471 shots in his entire regular season career. Nice strawman, but it doesn't apply here. If he can't nut up in the playoffs, he needs to sit at the end of the bench.

[ElNono]

I believe I have caught you with your foot in your mouth. Please provide the stats to back this statement up. Good luck.

Search for Plus/Minus for him in the playoffs... I made the post a while back...

I've had this conversation before...

[timvp]

If you used the past tense, you'd be correct. "Dropped" off... "Fell" off... by using the present tense, you leave it ambiguous as to whether or not his past troubles mean he will continue to have trouble in the future. Based on your past posts, I believe you think he'll have poor playoff performance in the future, which is why I've attacked your beliefs. But let me know if I'm wrong and I'll happily get off your case.I do believe Bonner will come up short in the playoffs once again. There's nothing to suggest he won't. To judge how well a player will likely do in the playoffs, we have two avenues: 1. See how that player has done in the playoffs in the past, and 2. See how that player has done in pressure situations during the regular season.

Bonner's production has been underwhelming in both scenarios.

To believe that Bonner will succeed in this year's playoffs, I'd have to ignore both subjective and objective analysis of his past. I just can't do that.



That's odd that you'd cite +/-. Are you not aware Bonner is the Spurs' adjusted plus/minus leader this year? Over Parker, over Duncan, over everybody. Don't bother pointing me to the articles of apm's flaws, I'm already aware.

Edit: Looks like he is the unadjusted leader too, see link below. I'm very curious to hear what you have to say about this. For the love of god, please don't let it be a Jim Mora-like "pleaayoffsssss!!!"

I have a lot of respect for the work and effort you put into this site. I'm truly hoping you'll dig deeper into Bonner's play and understand how he helps the Spurs win games. "Spreading the floor" isn't just some fun phrase that doesn't mean much. It's revolutionized the game for teams that have realized its value.

No offense but you must not read most of what I've said about Bonner over the years. In fact, in this very thread I said Bonner in the regular season has been better than Robert Horry ever was.

Again, Bonner is a great regular season player. And I don't even think "great" is an overstatement because he consistently puts up fantastic plus/minus numbers. It's not just this year, every single season he's been in the rotation his plus/minus stats have been one of the very best on the team ... if not the absolute best. Bonner has helped the Spurs win countless regular season games over the years ... perhaps more than any role player of the Duncan era (as long as you don't consider Bowen a role player).

Bonner really does spread the floor and the evidence is in the numbers. On top of that, he's an above average defender in the regular season. And while his individual rebounding numbers aren't spectacular, his boxing out is so good that the Spurs always rebound better with him on the court than with him off the court.

I can't stress enough how much I love Regular Season Matt Bonner.

However, the big problem with Regular Season Matt Bonner is that his regular season success simply doesn't translate to the postseason. And it's not just something simple like he shoots his three-pointers worse in the playoffs. It's an all-around decline in his game, much of which isn't really actually his fault.

Come playoff time, opponents get to scout the Spurs a lot more. The pace slows. The game becomes more of a grind instead of free flowing. All of that works against Bonner. By scouting him closely, teams can figure out exactly how to defend him. The slower pace and grinding flow decrease his areas of effectiveness even more.

The results have been consistent over the years. Bonner goes from posting great plus/minus numbers in the regular season to posting horrible plus/minus numbers in the postseason. On top of that, all of his traditional stats take a tumble ... he shoots worse, he shoots less, he rebounds less, he gets less assists, he turns the ball over more -- literally every single metric goes south.

Either Pop can believe that the clockwork-like drop in Bonner's effectiveness every playoffs has been one gigantic fluke, or he can look at the facts and realize that playoff basketball is different and Bonner's game doesn't fit playoff basketball nearly as well as Bonner's game fits regular season basketball.

I hope Pop eventually believes the latter before it's too late.

[Drz]

This is actually getting pretty funny. :downspin:


He can keep on choking or he can stop choking. Mathematically speaking, it's 50/50, thus it's absolutely true he's "as likely to keep on choking".
Just because you present two options doesn't mean they have to be 50/50. :lol


The thing is, we're not dealing with this in a vacuum. There are reasons why he's less effective in the playoffs, and that has a lot to do with playoff basketball, where matchups dictates a lot of the offense and defense, and where liabilities like Matt can be plan for and abused.
Good thing people can't play matchups and plan against him in the regular season! :lol


He has taken 1,471 shots in his entire regular season career. Nice strawman, but it doesn't apply here. If he can't nut up in the playoffs, he needs to sit at the end of the bench.
A strawman argument is when someone makes a point unrelated to the argument and guns it down, and pretends he refuted the original point. That is not what I did. Learn what logical fallacies are if you want to play in that space. :lol

Also, the 1,000 number I chose was arbitrary, and that he's taken 1,471 shots in the playoffs shows nothing about sample size without the proper context. :lol

If I dust off the binomial distribution and come up with some confidence intervals and hypothesis tests that show the sample size is way too small, would knuckleheaded you even be able to understand it? :lol

[Drz]

Search for Plus/Minus for him in the playoffs... I made the post a while back...

I've had this conversation before...
You originally said he was "a terrible defender" and said nothing about the playoffs. Your new story may hold water, I don't know. But the way you worded it did not. The Spurs give up less points per possession with Bonner on the floor than they do with him off it.

[timvp]

I'm going to be mad if Drz doesn't respond to me, tbh.

[TE]

Anyone who doesn't dislike Matt Bonner specifically for his basketball shortcomings, as evident as they are, needs to check themselves in a mental institution.

[Drz]

timvp:

Thank you for the thoughtful post. I agree with a lot of your points, but since the internet is made for arguing, I'll pick out the main part I disagreed with so we can have some fun.

To believe that Bonner will succeed in this year's playoffs, I'd have to ignore both subjective and objective analysis of his past. I just can't do that.

But you should. Yes, past performance is in general indicative of future performance. But not always. The roulette wheel is the common, easy example. People see those electronic boards that show there have been 5 reds in a row, so we're DUE for a black! You and I know that the past five spins say nothing about the next spin...

...but that's a roulette wheel. The question here is, does Bonner's (or any player's) past pressure performance tell us anything about his future? I say no. You say yes. I do not understand how you've arrived at your conclusion. This subject has been studied to death, and I've never seen one reliable study that didn't conclude that past clutchness had ZERO bearing on future performance. Not one. I know how much time you put into researching this, so surely you're aware of these studies. So why do you go against them? Gut feel? Your own proprietary study? A small study from somewhere that you think is better than the big ones?

I think you're going on gut feel. And I'm not going to rag on you if you say that's the case. But if it is gut feel, I'll just nod, leave you to your own opinions, and dismiss your thoughts on Bonner in the future. If you're going by gut feel, we simply think about things differently.

Edit to add:

I'm going to be mad if Drz doesn't respond to me, tbh.
:lol Your posts get extra special attention and thought. :toast Honestly, I have a fairly low opinion of the intelligence of most people on this board, and in this thread. That's not the case with you. I love debating with intelligent people that I disagree with.

[TE]

timvp:

The question here is, does Bonner's (or any player's) past pressure performance tell us anything about his future? I say no. You say yes. I do not understand how you've arrived at your conclusion. This subject has been studied to death, and I've never seen one reliable study that didn't conclude that past clutchness had ZERO bearing on future performance. Not one. I know how much time you put into researching this, so surely you're aware of these studies. So why do you go against them? Gut feel? Your own proprietary study? A small study from somewhere that you think is better than the big ones?



:lmao At anyone responding to this troll given this premise.

[Drz]

:lmao At anyone responding to this troll given this premise.
I was thinking about you when I wrote the last part of my post to timvp.

[ElNono]

This is actually getting pretty funny. :downspin:
Just because you present two options doesn't mean they have to be 50/50. :lol

That's all the options we have...


Good thing people can't play matchups and plan against him in the regular season! :lol

Not worth it. Winning the regular season doesn't win you a trophy.


A strawman argument is when someone makes a point unrelated to the argument and guns it down, and pretends he refuted the original point. That is not what I did. Learn what logical fallacies are if you want to play in that space. :lol


Also, the 1,000 number I chose was arbitrary, and that he's taken 1,471 shots in the playoffs shows nothing about sample size without the proper context. :lol

Keep :downspin: that...


If I dust off the binomial distribution and come up with some confidence intervals and hypothesis tests that show the sample size is way too small, would knuckleheaded you even be able to understand it? :lol

Maybe we should ask Bernoulli to take 3s in the playoffs...

[ElNono]

You originally said he was "a terrible defender" and said nothing about the playoffs. Your new story may hold water, I don't know. But the way you worded it did not. The Spurs give up less points per possession with Bonner on the floor than they do with him off it.

The problem with Matt has always been the playoffs. Nobody here cares about the regular season, tbh.

[Borosai]

Dislike. Envy. Same thing.

People need a scapegoat. Bonner never has and never will determine the fate of the Spurs in the playoffs. He can help or hurt, but the Spurs will only go as far as the stars take them, series after series (or just one). Unless, of course, you guys expect the Spurs to have great players up and down the roster.

Manu getting hurt every year. Tony getting outplayed by the opposing PG. Duncan getting older. Those are the serious problems. Complain about that if you want. The Spurs didn't get swept by the fucking Suns, and they didn't get beat by an 8th seed, because of Matt Bonner.

The Spurs need the Big 3 to play BIG. They need more depth up front. They need better team defense. But continue focusing on Matty while he chows down a hoagie and takes another dump.

[timvp]

Yes, past performance is in general indicative of future performance. But not always. The roulette wheel is the common, easy example.You lost me when you compared the game of basketball to roulette. The game of basketball is far, far different than a flip of a coin or a spin of a roulette wheel. Emotions (which include fear, confidence, trepidation, etc.), chemistry, experience and other intangible elements play a sizable role in the eventual outcomes. Regarding basketball, considering that the past is very likely to have been influenced by such intangibles, it's not much of a logical leap to say that the past can give you a hint of what will come in the future. And when the exact patterns are viewed on multiple occurrences, the ability to chalk everything up to variance decreases greatly.


I do not understand how you've arrived at your conclusion. This subject has been studied to death, and I've never seen one reliable study that didn't conclude that past clutchness had ZERO bearing on future performance. Not one.There has been very little study on clutchness and the role it plays in the NBA. In fact, I bet you can't even point me to one study that supports your statement that clutchness has no bearing on the future. The studies you are referencing most likely are regarding baseball, which I believe is not fairly comparable.

Moreover, recent studies prove that pressure has a measurable affect on NBA players (click here if interested (http://www.sloansportsconference.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/16-Goldman_Rao_Sloan2012_updated.pdf)). With baseball, even that has never truly been proven. So the fact that pressure undeniably changes how an NBA player performs begins one on the road to understanding that pressure affects different players more than most.

I mean, I hope you can show me the light and point me to studies that back your claim. It'd be much easier if I believed in Bonner's biggest bugaboo simply being variance. But as the studies come out about pressure and its relationship to NBA players, the less I can believe it's simply been a glorious fluke.




Anyways, thanks for responding and hopefully you respond again :lol

[ElNono]

Meh, I pointed out when the Memphis series was over that Matt wasn't the sole reason we lost...

His production (or lack thereof), however, does exacerbates the difficulties the team has, simply because of the system we use. And this is what timvp was pointing earlier on the Blair vs Bonner argument. The system puts a lot of weight on the stretch 4 creating the spacing for the guards and Tim to play inside. When your designated shooter can't deliver, you really are screwed.

On the defensive end, Tim has aged and physical basketball like the brand you see in the playoffs does take a toll on him. He needs help, and a soft, poor rebounder like Matt hardly provides much help. Thus, seeing Tiago getting an emergency appearance in the last few games of the series was hardly surprising.

All that said, let me point it out again: He was not the sole reason.

[jesterbobman]

In general, alot of the hate is that Bonner does not conform to the traditional skills of his position, and a lack of understanding of the value of his play, misinterpreting the extra missed shots from shooting 3's as fast break points/opportunities(He shoots 40%, which means he misses 60%, and lots of fast breaks from long rebounds), where the majority of statheads view them as extra opportunities to rebound, and the longer shots increase the probability of an offensive rebound(There was a paper at Sloan about this effect this year.) His defense is occasional poor, and he fucks up, but if he was a great defender as well as a 40% shooter, he'd get paid a shit ton more. People just expect the defense to be great here, as the players who've traditionally been here at PF/C have been great defenders. Could call this a cultural legacy of D-Rob/Tim.

I agree with a lot of what Drz has said. Sample size is small, and from a statistical POV, we're far better off using the regular season to predict playoff performance, if we assume each shot is an independent trial(as most people would model it.) We don't know whether the poor performance is just random deviation from long run performance(in which case, he's as likely to underperform in the playoffs again as any other player), or if there are specifics to Matt Bonner that explain the failing. For this, you'd look at style of play(e.g, Shooting big men/Role playing shooting bigs etc) and find a group of players similar in style to Bonner, then test for performance in the playoffs vs not in the playoffs. If, as a group, their performance suffered in the playoffs(on a per minute basis, adjusted for usage etc) then you predict a falloff from Bonner.

The other unknown, which you can't look at past statistics for, is performance under pressure, using a psychological profile of Matt, and how a person with that profile tends to perform under high(er) stress situations.

Simply saying Bonner has sucked in the playoffs before, so he will again is not really a valid argument. It's an opinion, and there is data of a sort to support it, but you're taking a bucket of data and ignoring the ocean.

[Capt Bringdown]

Bonner is a dark cloud hanging over the team. Even the departure of RJ and the return of SJAX does not dispel the despair of an impending Bonner playoff appearance.
Especially when you realize there's better cards that should be played.

[Spursfanfromafar]

Someone in this thread said that, the hate for Bonner is irrational, but there is no need for Popovich to play him so much more minutes than Tiago Splitter.

I completely agree. I don't see the reason for the excessive hatred for a bit player like Bonner who is paid sub-par money for a big in the middle of his career (just past his peak?) and he certainly does not typify or explain the Spurs' lack of championships (unlike their tremendous success generally).

For me, Bonner is a great situational player, helpful against certain matchups, against certain teams that are dullards in defense and don't respect his 3-shot, and against certain coaches. And he is paid par money for a situational player.

I don't however think that he deserves his excessive minutes over Splitter. It is only because the Spurs have a very skewed bigs roster - a Duncan whose minutes have to be managed in his evening of his career, a undersized big in Blair - and because Pop has skewed the minutes in favour of Bonner over Splitter that we see what we see today.

I hope the Spurs quickly get Diaw (most favourable) or Turiaf (less optimal but a decent addition) to address this skew. Once they do that, I think the skew in favour of Bonner over Splitter will be lessened. And Bonner's abilities can be better maximised as a situational player.

[TJastal]

Doesn't take a rocket scientist (ha-ha) to see that the more pressure packed a game is, the more Bonner starts to panic out on the floor. He'll start rushing shots, making mental miscues, etc. He also plays very timidly. I think he could break out of this negative pattern if he focused on playing more like Brian Cardinal "the Custodian" and quit worrying about everything and just start playing tough basketball. I think once he laid somebody out on the floor his confidence would shoot through the roof. He has the physical tools to be a hard nosed defender out there if he wanted to be. Officials tend to respect those types more. I think he's just plain scared of getting chewed out by Pop over something dumb. Which is a crying shame.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

"Statistically speaking?" I'm not a regular here, so I don't know if you're giving me a good trolljob. No, what your saying is false. Factually false, not opinion false. That's like saying "I rolled a die three times and it came up 6 all three times, so statistically speaking, it's just as likely to come up 6 again." Not true.


Excuse the interruption, but if you're really a professional statistician and you come up with such an incredibly false comparison, then I can't believe you're making your money out of statistical analyses.

For someone who keeps telling many different people how stupid they are, you sound pretty dumb yourself, tbh.

[therealtruth]

Dislike. Envy. Same thing.

People need a scapegoat. Bonner never has and never will determine the fate of the Spurs in the playoffs. He can help or hurt, but the Spurs will only go as far as the stars take them, series after series (or just one). Unless, of course, you guys expect the Spurs to have great players up and down the roster.

Manu getting hurt every year. Tony getting outplayed by the opposing PG. Duncan getting older. Those are the serious problems. Complain about that if you want. The Spurs didn't get swept by the fucking Suns, and they didn't get beat by an 8th seed, because of Matt Bonner.

The Spurs need the Big 3 to play BIG. They need more depth up front. They need better team defense. But continue focusing on Matty while he chows down a hoagie and takes another dump.

He has determined the fate. That happens when he's getting 20+ minutes in crucial playoff games at a crucial position. Remember game 6 last year when Dice reinjured his neck and Bonner had to play instead? The game was pretty much lost during that time period. When Dice came back in Randolph was on fire and couldn't be stopped.

[therealtruth]

Someone in this thread said that, the hate for Bonner is irrational, but there is no need for Popovich to play him so much more minutes than Tiago Splitter.

I completely agree. I don't see the reason for the excessive hatred for a bit player like Bonner who is paid sub-par money for a big in the middle of his career (just past his peak?) and he certainly does not typify or explain the Spurs' lack of championships (unlike their tremendous success generally).

For me, Bonner is a great situational player, helpful against certain matchups, against certain teams that are dullards in defense and don't respect his 3-shot, and against certain coaches. And he is paid par money for a situational player.

I don't however think that he deserves his excessive minutes over Splitter. It is only because the Spurs have a very skewed bigs roster - a Duncan whose minutes have to be managed in his evening of his career, a undersized big in Blair - and because Pop has skewed the minutes in favour of Bonner over Splitter that we see what we see today.

I hope the Spurs quickly get Diaw (most favourable) or Turiaf (less optimal but a decent addition) to address this skew. Once they do that, I think the skew in favour of Bonner over Splitter will be lessened. And Bonner's abilities can be better maximised as a situational player.

Exactly Bonner at best is situational. Remember when Stojakovic was getting abused by Bosh in the Finals? Carlisle made the adjustment and realized that wasn't a good series/matchup for him. If he had continued to play the Mavs probably lose the Finals. It's the exact same thing with Bonner. There are some matchups that are just bad for him.

[therealtruth]

:lmao teams respect his shot after OJ Mayo makes him put the ball on the floor

The problem is Bonner plays like he's 6 ft. I've never seen a guy so big play so small. At 6'10 he should be able to get his shot of against most guards. With his bulk he should be able to muscle his way in the post.

[therealtruth]

Wow I thought it was lower.

33% on 3's is bad for a guy who only takes wide open 3's. In the playoffs most players take 3's with defenders just about to block their shot. Bonner only takes the wide open kind.

[therealtruth]

I do believe Bonner will come up short in the playoffs once again. There's nothing to suggest he won't. To judge how well a player will likely do in the playoffs, we have two avenues: 1. See how that player has done in the playoffs in the past, and 2. See how that player has done in pressure situations during the regular season.

Bonner's production has been underwhelming in both scenarios.

To believe that Bonner will succeed in this year's playoffs, I'd have to ignore both subjective and objective analysis of his past. I just can't do that.




No offense but you must not read most of what I've said about Bonner over the years. In fact, in this very thread I said Bonner in the regular season has been better than Robert Horry ever was.

Again, Bonner is a great regular season player. And I don't even think "great" is an overstatement because he consistently puts up fantastic plus/minus numbers. It's not just this year, every single season he's been in the rotation his plus/minus stats have been one of the very best on the team ... if not the absolute best. Bonner has helped the Spurs win countless regular season games over the years ... perhaps more than any role player of the Duncan era (as long as you don't consider Bowen a role player).

Bonner really does spread the floor and the evidence is in the numbers. On top of that, he's an above average defender in the regular season. And while his individual rebounding numbers aren't spectacular, his boxing out is so good that the Spurs always rebound better with him on the court than with him off the court.

I can't stress enough how much I love Regular Season Matt Bonner.

However, the big problem with Regular Season Matt Bonner is that his regular season success simply doesn't translate to the postseason. And it's not just something simple like he shoots his three-pointers worse in the playoffs. It's an all-around decline in his game, much of which isn't really actually his fault.

Come playoff time, opponents get to scout the Spurs a lot more. The pace slows. The game becomes more of a grind instead of free flowing. All of that works against Bonner. By scouting him closely, teams can figure out exactly how to defend him. The slower pace and grinding flow decrease his areas of effectiveness even more.

The results have been consistent over the years. Bonner goes from posting great plus/minus numbers in the regular season to posting horrible plus/minus numbers in the postseason. On top of that, all of his traditional stats take a tumble ... he shoots worse, he shoots less, he rebounds less, he gets less assists, he turns the ball over more -- literally every single metric goes south.

Either Pop can believe that the clockwork-like drop in Bonner's effectiveness every playoffs has been one gigantic fluke, or he can look at the facts and realize that playoff basketball is different and Bonner's game doesn't fit playoff basketball nearly as well as Bonner's game fits regular season basketball.

I hope Pop eventually believes the latter before it's too late.

Bonner is pretty much a casualty of game planning in the playoffs. Playoff opponents can look at the plus/minus numbers and realize how important Bonner is. As a result they gameplan to take him out of the game. Usually you gameplan against the star players but because of how Bonner is used it's a unique situation. He's a crutch for the big 3 that hurts the team when taken away.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Bonner is pretty much a casualty of game planning in the playoffs. Playoff opponents can look at the plus/minus numbers and realize how important Bonner is. As a result they gameplan to take him out of the game. Usually you gameplan against the star players but because of how Bonner is used it's a unique situation. He's a crutch for the big 3 that hurts the team when taken away.

I'm no Bonner hater, but if that plan you're talking about consists of constantly leaving him wide open and attacking him when he's defending the post, then yea, I guess you're right.

[TJastal]

Bonner is pretty much a casualty of game planning in the playoffs. Playoff opponents can look at the plus/minus numbers and realize how important Bonner is. As a result they gameplan to take him out of the game. Usually you gameplan against the star players but because of how Bonner is used it's a unique situation. He's a crutch for the big 3 that hurts the team when taken away.

+1

Funny thing is, the Memphis Grizzlies not only took him out of every game, they did it using an assortment of guards so they could continue to stuff the paint with bigs.

I can only imagine that Lionel Hollins must have spent many nights leading up to the playoffs game planning every little detail on how to shut down Pop's
little 3-ring circus/dog and pony show.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

The problem with Matt has always been the playoffs. Nobody here cares about the regular season, tbh.

Maybe this year he will finally get to 150 3PA. Sorry but using a small sample size to try and claim it is a good predictor and discount the notion that there could be a progression to the mean just doesn't hold water.

I'm with you on Bonner being a pussy in crunch time. You can watch him and see it in his body language but putting up 18 shot attempts as if its meaningful doesn't posit anything.

[therealtruth]

Maybe this year he will finally get to 150 3PA. Sorry but using a small sample size to try and claim it is a good predictor and discount the notion that there could be a progression to the mean just doesn't hold water.

I'm with you on Bonner being a pussy in crunch time. You can watch him and see it in his body language but putting up 18 shot attempts as if its meaningful doesn't posit anything.

The funny thing is I've always wondered why team don't just come down the court and shoot 3 pointers every time when they are behind big. It's one of the most efficient shots and with enough attempts you will progress to the mean. Remember McGrady's 13 points in 35 seconds? I think that could happen more often if teams used that strategy.

[Obstructed_View]

Not sure where you got your info. His 21.0 mpg is 8th on the team, behind (in order) Parker, Duncan, Leonard, Green, Ginobili, Neal, and Blair.
Yes, one of those guys plays his position: Duncan.



Again, not sure I understand where you're coming from. You're saying the 7th highest 3 pt. % in the NBA (.449) shouldn't be below the median defender? Do you realize that "below the median" means bottom half? That'd be awfully swell if a 3 point specialist were a top half defender, but it's faaaaar from a requirement.
The quote you posted didn't say he was below the median on defense, it said he's below median of everyone at his position. That his great shooting percentage doesn't bring him into the top half of the league is a condemnation of his horrible defense and lack of rebounding.


Yes, clearly this was Bonner's fault. If he'd made his career .418 mark, we'd have scored 18 more points over those 32 playoff games!! That's OVER half a point per game, WOW!!!
Funny how you only include one side of the game if it suits your argument. Bonner took Horry's spot, on both offense and defense. With Horry the Spurs went to at least the conference finals. With Bonner the Spurs have been upset three years in a row in humiiliating fashion. Sorry you refuse to do the fucking math.

[Obstructed_View]

The funny thing is I've always wondered why team don't just come down the court and shoot 3 pointers every time when they are behind big. It's one of the most efficient shots and with enough attempts you will progress to the mean. Remember McGrady's 13 points in 35 seconds? I think that could happen more often if teams used that strategy.

The Dallas Mavericks tried that about 15 years ago. It doesn't work.

[angelbelow]

Wow Drz really does only come out when Bonner's honor is at stake. Your hostile approach makes it more comical, is that what you're going for?

Why would looking at his regular season statistics raise our confidence in his playoff performance when the two are so different? Bonner tends to do well against teams who are average to below average defensively. Looking at his regular season statistics vs. playoff caliber teams would be a better way to go about things IMO. Against teams like Orlando, Philly, Chicago, Miami, Bonner has either shot poorly or shot very little (he did play well against Dallas 3 times though). Against OKC, hes shot well at 50% from the 3 (38.5% overall), but his makes and attempts are fewer compared to his season averages (1.3M down from 1.8 and 2.7 A down from 4.1A.) Bonner has a averaged 3+ 3pointers makes vs. teams like Utah, Washington, Charlotte, Detroit and Atlanta. None of those are great defensive teams and only the Hawks are currently in playoff standings. Its not strictly one way or the other but more often then not he struggles against playoff teams as opposed to playing very well against teams who are less disciplined.

Additionally, Bonner has a very specific quality that he brings to the team. Minimizing that quality only reveals that he does very little else well. But I don't dislike Bonner the player. It's actually pretty fun watching Bonner (or any player) light up teams from downtown. But Pop has to make the adjustment when Bonner is ineffective.

[benefactor]

Drz...with the effective Bonner support troll goods, tbh.

[silverblk mystix]

In case you are too stupid to realize how stupid you are, the flaw in your logic is that there are quite a few more alternatives than the two you presented.


If you used the past tense, you'd be correct. "Dropped" off... "Fell" off... by using the present tense, you leave it ambiguous as to whether or not his past troubles mean he will continue to have trouble in the future. Based on your past posts, I believe you think he'll have poor playoff performance in the future, which is why I've attacked your beliefs. But let me know if I'm wrong and I'll happily get off your case.


That's odd that you'd cite +/-. Are you not aware Bonner is the Spurs' adjusted plus/minus leader this year? Over Parker, over Duncan, over everybody. Don't bother pointing me to the articles of apm's flaws, I'm already aware.

Edit: Looks like he is the unadjusted leader too, see link below. I'm very curious to hear what you have to say about this. For the love of god, please don't let it be a Jim Mora-like "pleaayoffsssss!!!"

http://www.nba.com/statistics/plusminus/plusminus_sort.jsp?pcomb=1&season=22011&split=9&team=Spurs

I have a lot of respect for the work and effort you put into this site. I'm truly hoping you'll dig deeper into Bonner's play and understand how he helps the Spurs win games. "Spreading the floor" isn't just some fun phrase that doesn't mean much. It's revolutionized the game for teams that have realized its value.

Do you watch hockey? If you do, you've seen the vast increase in offense when it's 4 on 4 instead of 5 on 5. The increase is MASSIVE. Now, imagine a hockey team that plays all its offense 4 on 4, but somehow keeps its defense 5 on 5. That's huge, right? That's what Bonner brings to the table. He could sit there on the 3 point line and eat a hoagie or drop a deuce, but as long as teams have to respect his shot, he's doing more for the Spurs winning games than almost anyone else on the team.


Very true!


Very false! And very small-minded. Yes, baseball stats are easier to interpret due to the more individual nature of the sport, but that does NOT imply they are not indicative of the quality of the player. I wonder if you think that because you struggle to understand them, and your feeble mind thinks "gosh, I can't handle this, I'll just bash them! Dem der stats r bad!!!"



You clearly pulled this out of your ass. There is no supporting evidence for this. I'm sure you'll trot out the "I watch the games!" line, which any respectable analyst would know is bullshit.


silverblk mystix, of all the Bonner basher posts, yours was easily the dumbest and least coherent. You are doing the other Bonner bashers a disservice by posting in this thread. Your stupidity reflects poorly on them. You would be doing all of us a favor by leaving this thread. Thank you.

What a bunch of garbage disguised as a polite argument.

Shoulda' known you were a troll when you initially posted.

" There are three kinds of lies;lies, damned lies and statistics."

Color it any way you want....or you could just watch a fuckin' game.

Lame troll, but I'll give you credit for duping us into playing...

[sammy]

Why Bonner is disliked?

Because he sucks, plain and simple. No defense, no rebounding and has feet of cement so when Timmy needs help guarding he's not where he's needed so Timmy has to guard the paint by himself! When needed to shoot or make shots, nothing but bricks! He nowhere to be found in the playoffs, therefore he's overpaid and worthless! For all that, he get's minutes at the expense of others who play a whole lot better! Too bad they didn't trade his worthless ass!:bang

[Mugen]

It's gotta be the hair.

[Blake]

Bonner's overall playoff performance in SA has been dismal, but I think his performance in last year's playoff series against the Grizz while less than awesome, was still better than dismal.

Last year, all the Spurs generally sucked, the front line match ups were terrible, and Matt hit a few big threes in the 4th quarter (game 1) that went largely unnoticed because the Spurs lost.

The Spurs could win a title with Bonner being tops in +/- and the haters will still hate, the way it hurts AJ haters to look at the #6 hanging in the rafters.

Is what it is.

[Splits]

+1

Funny thing is, the Memphis Grizzlies not only took him out of every game, they did it using an assortment of guards so they could continue to stuff the paint with bigs.

I can only imagine that Lionel Hollins must have spent many nights leading up to the playoffs game planning every little detail on how to shut down Pop's
little 3-ring circus/dog and pony show.

This is just false. I can't remember who wrote the game grades for the Memphis series last year (they did a fantastic job, btw) but I recall that almost every game Bonner got above-average grades on the defensive end where the matchups were frankly horrible. It is a myth and huge fallacy on this site that Bonner was abused on the defensive end in the Memphis series last year. It just isn't true. Once the ST search feature is working again, I'll go pull up all the game grade threads and prove the point (again). But just know that anyone who says Bonner was the major defensive liability in last year's Memphis series is not speaking the truth.

[TJastal]

This is just false. I can't remember who wrote the game grades for the Memphis series last year (they did a fantastic job, btw) but I recall that almost every game Bonner got above-average grades on the defensive end where the matchups were frankly horrible. It is a myth and huge fallacy on this site that Bonner was abused on the defensive end in the Memphis series last year. It just isn't true. Once the ST search feature is working again, I'll go pull up all the game grade threads and prove the point (again). But just know that anyone who says Bonner was the major defensive liability in last year's Memphis series is not speaking the truth.

I'm glad you support Bonner's tough playoff defense and I defenitely look forward to reading all about it. But the post you clicked on addresses the grizzlies gameplan to take away Bonner's 3pt looks, which they did quite effectively, and often using much smaller players.

Idiot.

[Splits]

I'm glad you support Bonner's tough playoff defense and I defenitely look forward to reading all about it. But the post you clicked on addresses the grizzlies gameplan to take away Bonner's 3pt looks, which they did quite effectively, and often using much smaller players.

Idiot.

Proving once again why, after 6400+ posts, you're still GN.

[Drz]

Anyways, thanks for responding and hopefully you respond again :lol
Just responding to say I'm done with this thread.

[portnoy1]

My problem with Bonner is much deeper than defense and rebounding. To explain in years past Tim Duncan has always had a capable defensive partner (Rasho, Nazr , Fab ,Horry....). Those guys would provide help defense on drives, solid and consistent rebounding and would not need help in guarding post players. Add to that fact every body said that Bowen lost a major step in the 08-09 season. Truth is, he had gradually been losing a step year after year. What screwed him up was lack of help from the bigs when he got beat (something he always had to work with From Robinson to Oberto). And that's why from 07-08 to 08-09 When the Spurs went from Starting Oberto to Bonner their was a noticeable drop off in Bowens production.

Second, the Spurs have always had a pretty quick trigger in getting rid of shooters that didn't produce in the Playoffs no matter how good they did in the regular season. Examples : Hedo Turkoglu, Ime Udoka and last Roger Mason Jr. who a few game winners in the regular season. All of them were gone by the time their contract ran out with no chance of the Spurs resigning them to solid contract.

Bonner however, had two legit seasons in which he got minutes and failed miserably in the playoffs (09' and 10' playoffs). The Spurs sign him to a 4yr deal worth $15million. The biggest contract he has ever had after two subpar playoff outings.

Yes Bonner can't do alot of things, but what bothers me about Bonner is everytime I see him on the floor it reminds me that he represents alot of what the Spurs were against in the championship days (being soft and not mentally tough). He represents how this proud organization went from being hard nosed and disciplined to being soft and not looking at the big picture.

[buujness]

Very true!


Very false! And very small-minded. Yes, baseball stats are easier to interpret due to the more individual nature of the sport, but that does NOT imply they are not indicative of the quality of the player. I wonder if you think that because you struggle to understand them, and your feeble mind thinks "gosh, I can't handle this, I'll just bash them! Dem der stats r bad!!!"



You clearly pulled this out of your ass. There is no supporting evidence for this. I'm sure you'll trot out the "I watch the games!" line, which any respectable analyst would know is bullshit.

Really? Watching the games is bullshit? Wow, I suppose that I should just completely bow down before the almighty Algorithms, and ignore everything that my senses and logic tell me.

I like how you agree with me when I say that stats don't tell the whole story, and yet the only thing that you use to back up your argument is stats. Funny.

I won't argue with you when you say that Bonner's advanced metrics are off the charts; they clearly are. His regular season +/- is flat-out ridiculous. My point is that those numbers really don't give you a clear picture of his impact. In theory, having a PF that can shoot 3s at a 45% clip is amazing, because the other team is going to be tempted to guard him with the opposing PF (because they can't guard Gs). So, even if that PF is covered, he has value, because he takes a rim protector and makes that protector play out on the perimeter.

In reality, in the case of Bonner, it doesn't quite work out that way. Why? Because he doesn't shoot from that high of a release point. He's bent over and shoots from his shoulder, instead of being upright and shooting from his forehead. This makes his shot easier to challenge than it really should be. Therefore, his defender doesn't have to come out as far as one would expect, and, when it comes to athletic PFs, they can show on him, make him pass, and then go back to the rim.

And all of this is just offensively; essays could be written about how much of a sieve he is defensively. Nor does this even bring up the playoffs (aka, the "real" season).

When an opponent has time to scout you thoroughly and take advantages of your flaws, it really brings those flaws to the forefront. An athletic PF can guard him closely enough to stop him from shooting his low-release point 3, make him pass, and then get back in time to prevent drives to the rim (ex: Darell Arthur last year). If that happens, then what good does Bonner do you?

[Gagnrath]

buujness he's really not that horrid defensively, in isolation most guys can take him but he does a decent job of ball denial, and he comes with help defense though he's not a shot blocker. He is in defensive position. He does take charges. People shoot worse with a hand in their face and bonner does exactly that on defense. He stays where he can keep a hand in their face. No highlights and not many steals but he's really not the horrid defender that people say.

[therealtruth]

This is just false. I can't remember who wrote the game grades for the Memphis series last year (they did a fantastic job, btw) but I recall that almost every game Bonner got above-average grades on the defensive end where the matchups were frankly horrible. It is a myth and huge fallacy on this site that Bonner was abused on the defensive end in the Memphis series last year. It just isn't true. Once the ST search feature is working again, I'll go pull up all the game grade threads and prove the point (again). But just know that anyone who says Bonner was the major defensive liability in last year's Memphis series is not speaking the truth.

Jeff Van Gundy called it when he was doing the series last year. He said the Spurs need more talent. Who's the least talented player on the Spurs? Bonner. He does one thing that the Grizzlies took away. The only reason he might seem adequate on defense is the team helps so much to try to cover for him. However it ultimately hurts the Spurs because they don't have the athleticism to help and recover against more athletic teams.

[therealtruth]

My problem with Bonner is much deeper than defense and rebounding. To explain in years past Tim Duncan has always had a capable defensive partner (Rasho, Nazr , Fab ,Horry....). Those guys would provide help defense on drives, solid and consistent rebounding and would not need help in guarding post players. Add to that fact every body said that Bowen lost a major step in the 08-09 season. Truth is, he had gradually been losing a step year after year. What screwed him up was lack of help from the bigs when he got beat (something he always had to work with From Robinson to Oberto). And that's why from 07-08 to 08-09 When the Spurs went from Starting Oberto to Bonner their was a noticeable drop off in Bowens production.

Second, the Spurs have always had a pretty quick trigger in getting rid of shooters that didn't produce in the Playoffs no matter how good they did in the regular season. Examples : Hedo Turkoglu, Ime Udoka and last Roger Mason Jr. who a few game winners in the regular season. All of them were gone by the time their contract ran out with no chance of the Spurs resigning them to solid contract.

Bonner however, had two legit seasons in which he got minutes and failed miserably in the playoffs (09' and 10' playoffs). The Spurs sign him to a 4yr deal worth $15million. The biggest contract he has ever had after two subpar playoff outings.

Yes Bonner can't do alot of things, but what bothers me about Bonner is everytime I see him on the floor it reminds me that he represents alot of what the Spurs were against in the championship days (being soft and not mentally tough). He represents how this proud organization went from being hard nosed and disciplined to being soft and not looking at the big picture.

Exactly. This organization prides itself on focusing on the postseason but continuing to play a known playoff choker major minutes goes against that. In '09 we might have gave him a pass but in '10 he should have been gone. You don't get too many wide open looks in the playoffs. That's why 3pt percentages go down. So the ones you get you have to knock down.

[portnoy1]

Exactly. This organization prides itself on focusing on the postseason but continuing to play a known playoff choker major minutes goes against that. In '09 we might have gave him a pass but in '10 he should have been gone. You don't get too many wide open looks in the playoffs. That's why 3pt percentages go down. So the ones you get you have to knock down.
The person playing the 4/5 alongside Duncan has to rebound and defend.PERIOD!!! If they want 3's from that position as well thats fine, but dont compromise what got you championsips. Troy Murphy, Lamar Odom and Ryan Anderson are guys who can hit 3's but will get there share if rebounds. Out of that group Odom is the only that gets alot of money, but anderson and murphy dont. Couldve signed or looked to trade for those guys but instead they gave Bonner all that money. Thats something else that irritates me. The Spurs act as if he is the only guy in the league that is tall and cant shoot 3's.

I like Pop but he hasnt had a deep playoff run since bonner started getting 20+ mins. Jerry Sloan wouldn't put up with this crap. Ever Since Jerry Sloan resigned I have wanted the Spurs to get him and have him be lead assistant and run the offense (the flex offense where Bonner isnt needed)while Pop goes back to what he does best "Defense"

[roycrikside]

TimVP and DRZ:

I believe I've thought of a way to get to the truth of the matter. If you want to predict how Bonner will do in the playoffs, check how he does against playoff teams. The difference between the regular season and the playoffs isn't just that games slow down and teams prepare better for their matchups. The biggest factor, imo is that the playoffs gets rid of all the bullshit teams.

Who cares how Bonner shoots against Golden State, Washington and Sacramento? Those teams stink. They'll leave him open all day long.

Do this study: See how he's done the past couple years in shooting percentage, 3 pt shooting percentage, rebounds, turnovers and +/- against LAL, OKC, Dal, Mem, Port, Den, LAC, Chi, Mia and Orl. Just those ten teams.

I bet the numbers are closer to his historical playoff ones than his historical regular season ones.

[therealtruth]

The person playing the 4/5 alongside Duncan has to rebound and defend.PERIOD!!! If they want 3's from that position as well thats fine, but dont compromise what got you championsips. Troy Murphy, Lamar Odom and Ryan Anderson are guys who can hit 3's but will get there share if rebounds. Out of that group Odom is the only that gets alot of money, but anderson and murphy dont. Couldve signed or looked to trade for those guys but instead they gave Bonner all that money. Thats something else that irritates me. The Spurs act as if he is the only guy in the league that is tall and cant shoot 3's.

I like Pop but he hasnt had a deep playoff run since bonner started getting 20+ mins. Jerry Sloan wouldn't put up with this crap. Ever Since Jerry Sloan resigned I have wanted the Spurs to get him and have him be lead assistant and run the offense (the flex offense where Bonner isnt needed)while Pop goes back to what he does best "Defense"

Pop's offense relies way to much on 3's instead of paint points and high percentage baskets. As a result a guy like Bonner who can shoot 3's is valued more over a guy like Splitter who can get high percentage shots and draw fouls. It's almost impossible to draw fouls when all you do is shoot 3's.

If you look at the Grizzlies series the Grizzlies got much more easy baskets than the Spurs. 3's are efficient shots but not easy baskets. The more easy baskets you get the less pressure it puts on your defense.

[therealtruth]

TimVP and DRZ:

I believe I've thought of a way to get to the truth of the matter. If you want to predict how Bonner will do in the playoffs, check how he does against playoff teams. The difference between the regular season and the playoffs isn't just that games slow down and teams prepare better for their matchups. The biggest factor, imo is that the playoffs gets rid of all the bullshit teams.

Who cares how Bonner shoots against Golden State, Washington and Sacramento? Those teams stink. They'll leave him open all day long.

Do this study: See how he's done the past couple years in shooting percentage, 3 pt shooting percentage, rebounds, turnovers and +/- against LAL, OKC, Dal, Mem, Port, Den, LAC, Chi, Mia and Orl. Just those ten teams.

I bet the numbers are closer to his historical playoff ones than his historical regular season ones.

I would go a step further and say how does he do against the best defensive teams. The best defensive teams consistently make the playoffs while it's harder to make the playoffs just with offense.

[ElNono]

Comparing regular season vs playoffs is an exercise in futility. There's a reason stats are kept separately for both. They're very different tournaments, with different setups and very different goals. They also normally have quite different scheduling.

During the regular season you have back to backs, roster changes, teams tanking games, longer team rotations, less pressure to win every game, etc. Things that (normally) don't exist during the playoffs.

Take last game against the Lakers last season, or Portland this season. Pop decided to tank it and sit down the big 3. Would Bonner's number in those game be a realistic sample? Probably not. Would Pop pull that off in the playoffs? Certainly not.

[Richie]

If Bonner is the worst big on the roster then we have every chance to win a championship.

Sadly with Blair we have a player who is even worse in defence and doesn't have the ability to stretch the floor like Bonner. He has a nice touch around the basket but no better than Splitter.

[z0sa]

People blame Bonner for being himself instead of the GM and Coach for acquiring and playing him.

[angelbelow]

TimVP and DRZ:

I believe I've thought of a way to get to the truth of the matter. If you want to predict how Bonner will do in the playoffs, check how he does against playoff teams. The difference between the regular season and the playoffs isn't just that games slow down and teams prepare better for their matchups. The biggest factor, imo is that the playoffs gets rid of all the bullshit teams.

Who cares how Bonner shoots against Golden State, Washington and Sacramento? Those teams stink. They'll leave him open all day long.

Do this study: See how he's done the past couple years in shooting percentage, 3 pt shooting percentage, rebounds, turnovers and +/- against LAL, OKC, Dal, Mem, Port, Den, LAC, Chi, Mia and Orl. Just those ten teams.

I bet the numbers are closer to his historical playoff ones than his historical regular season ones.

My lazy version that I typed up last night (few posts above yours):



Why would looking at his regular season statistics raise our confidence in his playoff performance when the two are so different? Bonner tends to do well against teams who are average to below average defensively. Looking at his regular season statistics vs. playoff caliber teams would be a better way to go about things IMO. Against teams like Orlando, Philly, Chicago, Miami, Bonner has either shot poorly or shot very little (he did play well against Dallas 3 times though). Against OKC, hes shot well at 50% from the 3 (38.5% overall), but his makes and attempts are fewer compared to his season averages (1.3M down from 1.8 and 2.7 A down from 4.1A.) Bonner has a averaged 3+ 3pointers makes vs. teams like Utah, Washington, Charlotte, Detroit and Atlanta. None of those are great defensive teams and only the Hawks are currently in playoff standings. Its not strictly one way or the other but more often then not he struggles against playoff teams as opposed to playing very well against teams who are less disciplined.



Just responding to say I'm done with this thread.

Not surprising.

[vander]

so far this year:

when Bonner is on the court, the Spurs give up 102.43 ppg. when he is on the bench, 103.92 ppg

when Bonner is on the court, the Spurs score 113.43 ppg.
when he is on the bench, 104.18

the Spurs top 3-player combo is Parker/Bonner/Splitter
and the 3 top 2-player combos are Bonner/Splitter, Parker/Bonner, Parker/Splitter.


Pop should play more Bonner/Splitter
and no more Blair, the Spurs do 12 ppg worse when Blair on the floor

[therealtruth]

People blame Bonner for being himself instead of the GM and Coach for acquiring and playing him.

If he really cared about the team he would tell the coach to not play him so much.

[Spurs7794]

I like Bonner. However, it pisses me off that Pop plays him over Splitter and that he inexplicably plays him at weird moments. For example, the Thunder are coming back, the building is rocking. Pop calls a timeout to bring in the big dogs...and Bonner.

Those types of games, as much as I've hoped and prayed for it to be otherwise, are not where Bonner shines. For whatever reason, he just plays nervously. He passes up shots just because its crunch time. JUST SHOOT THE DAMN BALL.

The only time I've seen him shoot confidently in crunch time was game 1 against Memphis last year. He shot those two threes with no hesitation. I thought those shots would help him out because those were HUGE shots. However, then we get horrible moments this season like against the Clippers in overtime where he was wide open and wanted nothing to do with the shot. But since everyone else was covered, he hesitated, looked scared, then shot it almost like he was scared of what Pop would think for him not shooting it. He did make it but I think his reaction there is more indicative of his mindset than that one result.

[cheguevara]

- gets too many minutes. I understand why, but the fact still remains
- seems to miss open shots when it matters (playoffs, big games)
- gets raped on defensive end 75% of the time
- usually dissapears when we need to make a run late in the game

that's pretty much it.