Defensive Precedence: Stephen Jackson and Boris Diaw

[timvp]

Thus far, Stephen Jackson and Boris Diaw look to be rather large upgrades on the defensive end for the Spurs. While neither one has a reputation of being a great defender, here's something to consider: The 2009-10 Charlotte Bobcats, coached by Larry Brown, were the top defensive team in the NBA. Stephen Jackson and Boris Diaw averaged 39.3 minutes and 35.4 minutes on that Bobcats team, respectively.

You have to be doing something right on D to average that many minutes on the league's best defensive team. And when it comes to playing for a demanding defensive coach, Larry Brown is the ultimate. Perhaps we Spurs fans, who haven't seen an elite defense in town in a longer time than we'd like to admit, shouldn't be surprised if these two ex-Bobcats end up teaching the current players a thing or two about defense.

[TDMVPDPOY]

09/10 they also had a clown name gerald wallace on the team, did you take that into consideration?

[NewcastleKEG]

What are the late season moves Spurs have made in recent seasons?

[jjktkk]

Great point. At first glance, you wouldn't think a player like Diaw could excel under the tutelage of Brown, but he did. The same could be said for Jack, with his abrasive personalty, but both were vital pieces for that team in Charlotte and both look to be vital players for the Spurs.

[Solid D]

They are both very "handsy". They dig and pull balls loose. You add that to the reaches of Leonard, Green, Manu and Blair, they created a lot of havoc against Philly. It even rubbed off on Matt Bonner. :wow

[Kurik]

It's hard to believe that the Bobcats were such a good defensive team just a couple years ago. Ever since Diaw and Jackson were acquired there seems to be more energy with the team defense from pretty much everybody.

[ElNono]

Such a huge change from a fucker that sleepwalked through games and still played 30+ mpg... Even if Jack was a mess today, I loved every minute he was out there. His fuckups were mostly by trying to make stuff happen, instead of just passing the ball around and yawning...

Diaw is active. Compared to Blair he has size, which you can't teach. We'll see when we play some physical team how does he responds.

[freetiago]

09/10 they also had a clown name gerald wallace on the team, did you take that into consideration?

leonard > wallace
duncans corpse/tiago > injured chanlder/tyrus thomas
parker/ginobili > raja bell/dj agustin

this team has no excuses now to not be a top 7 defensive team
they have two 7 footers who can patrol the paint and a lot of tweener wing players who can guard multiple positions

[Sense]

Thus far, Stephen Jackson and Boris Diaw look to be rather large upgrades on the defensive end for the Spurs. While neither one has a reputation of being a great defender, here's something to consider: The 2009-10 Charlotte Bobcats, coached by Larry Brown, were the top defensive team in the NBA. Stephen Jackson and Boris Diaw averaged 39.3 minutes and 35.4 minutes on that Bobcats team, respectively.

You have to be doing something right on D to average that many minutes on the league's best defensive team. And when it comes to playing for a demanding defensive coach, Larry Brown is the ultimate. Perhaps we Spurs fans, who haven't seen an elite defense in town in a longer time than we'd like to admit, shouldn't be surprised if these two ex-Bobcats end up teaching the current players a thing or two about defense.

:toast

[jesterbobman]

Tyson Chandler and Gerald Wallace were pretty important in that defense, though defense is really about how players defend together, a team isn't going to be elite defensively if 2 of the positions are below average. You're not playing that many minutes on a LB coached team if you're a bad defender.

[jiggy_55]

Gotta say I'm loving the defensive intensity these last few games. Although playing New Orleans with half their team injured and the Sixers without Iguodala isn't exactly an achievement. Neither team is a good offensive team, so I'm going to wait to judge the defense later when we play more offensive minded teams that can put up points.

However, doing this with our own absences (the big 3 each missing a game, Splitter, Bonner, Neal also missing games), while also doing it on a back-to-back-to-back is quite impressive.

[therealtruth]

Thus far, Stephen Jackson and Boris Diaw look to be rather large upgrades on the defensive end for the Spurs. While neither one has a reputation of being a great defender, here's something to consider: The 2009-10 Charlotte Bobcats, coached by Larry Brown, were the top defensive team in the NBA. Stephen Jackson and Boris Diaw averaged 39.3 minutes and 35.4 minutes on that Bobcats team, respectively.

You have to be doing something right on D to average that many minutes on the league's best defensive team. And when it comes to playing for a demanding defensive coach, Larry Brown is the ultimate. Perhaps we Spurs fans, who haven't seen an elite defense in town in a longer time than we'd like to admit, shouldn't be surprised if these two ex-Bobcats end up teaching the current players a thing or two about defense.

It's funny we're talking about Pop like he's no longer an elite defensive coach. It used to be that Pop wouldn't play guys that didn't play good defense. I wish his inner Don Nelson and inner Larry Brown could find some good medium.

[Paranoid Pop]

09/10 they also had a clown name gerald wallace on the team, did you take that into consideration?

And we have Kahwi.

Someone should twit that to J McDonald, that would make for a great question to ask Pop.

The best thing about it is that it doesn't look like a fluke, these two are really doing work on D. On the other hand the O did regress, you can't look at it only one way, but it could get better with more PT (Jackson TOs, Boris finding his place other than the great high screens).

[Ice009]

09/10 they also had a clown name gerald wallace on the team, did you take that into consideration?

Just like you took Andre Iguodala into consideration tonight when you called the Sixers defense trash right?

[GSH]

Thus far, Stephen Jackson and Boris Diaw look to be rather large upgrades on the defensive end for the Spurs. While neither one has a reputation of being a great defender, here's something to consider: The 2009-10 Charlotte Bobcats, coached by Larry Brown, were the top defensive team in the NBA. Stephen Jackson and Boris Diaw averaged 39.3 minutes and 35.4 minutes on that Bobcats team, respectively.

You have to be doing something right on D to average that many minutes on the league's best defensive team. And when it comes to playing for a demanding defensive coach, Larry Brown is the ultimate. Perhaps we Spurs fans, who haven't seen an elite defense in town in a longer time than we'd like to admit, shouldn't be surprised if these two ex-Bobcats end up teaching the current players a thing or two about defense.


Defense is so hard to quantify for individual players. The bottom line on D is: does the other team shoot a high percentage and score a lot of points. For that Bobcats team, the answer was - No.

There are 240 available minutes, per team, in each game. Jackson and Diaw represented 75 of those minutes, or about 31% of Charlotte's total minutes. If the team is the best defensive team in the league, and those two guys are putting in almost a third of all available minutes, it stands to reason that they are doing a pretty damned good job on the defensive end.

There are lots of people who didn't (and still don't) appreciate just how good Bowen was on defense. They are the ones who say that he should not have had his number retired. So if Jackson and Diaw aren't "known for being great defenders", what does that really say about them? Chances are, not much - since great defensive plays are rarely on the highlight reels.

But Jackson and Diaw don't have to be lock-down defenders to make a really big difference. All they have to do is take up a bunch of the minutes formerly going to the weak-link players. When you have 3 guys on the floor at one time playing good help defense, the other two weak links are going to make the whole team look terrible.

Edit: BTW - that's three games in a row the Spurs opponents have scored less than 90 points. It could be a fluke, but if they pile up a few more we can be pretty sure it's not. The Hornets game was ugly. But one of the hallmarks of those defensive Spurs teams was winning ugly.

[Paranoid Pop]

Btw this kind of post is what makes this forum awesome.

[angelbelow]

Edit: BTW - that's three games in a row the Spurs opponents have scored less than 90 points. It could be a fluke, but if they pile up a few more we can be pretty sure it's not. The Hornets game was ugly. But one of the hallmarks of those defensive Spurs teams was winning ugly.

Not a fluke but not completely convincing either. Holding Dallas and Philly below 90 is no easy feat and I was impressed with both wins. However, Dallas looks like a below .500 below when Dirk plays poorly but credit our defense for that. Against Philly, they were missing their all-star and one of their top scorers (but we were missing our 2 best interior defenders.)

Against the Hornets, well I'm surprised that team scored over 60 points. That roster reminded me of an old Bucks team (2006/7?) that I used to always place bets on to score under their total point spread.

All in all, a lot of reason to be optimistic about our defense and I would fully expect this team to continue to showcase some great defense. So I definitely don't think its a fluke but a lot remains to be seen.

[100%duncan]

Nice find. Really something interesting and explains why the Spurs have been improving defensively

[TDMVPDPOY]

Just like you took Andre Iguodala into consideration tonight when you called the Sixers defense trash right?

i consider everyone trash man if ur name aint tim duncan..

[Ice009]

i consider everyone trash man if ur name aint tim duncan..

You called Tim Duncan a scrub early in the season. Care to explain that?

[angelbelow]

You called Tim Duncan a scrub early in the season. Care to explain that?

Haha seriously, tdmvpdpoy was one of the biggest Duncan haters and Splitter riders early on.

[Bruno]

What is noteworthy too is that Larry Brown absolutely loved Diaw. For a coach like Brown, who is similar to Pop in a lot of aspects, Diaw's positive aspects overshadowed his negative ones by a lot. It gives confidence that Diaw will do well under Pop.

[TJastal]

Getting rid of that albatross Jefferson had to be done one way or the other. Credit the F.O. for finally getting it done and correcting their original "mistake". A huge weight was lifted off its shoulders. Now the team is riding an emotional high right now but eventually it will come back down to earth. Pop needs to figure out a steady rotation so the existing guys can build chemistry with the new guys. He can't keep relying on individual talent alone to win games. If he continues to the helter skelter approach I'm afraid as playoff time approaches the spurs are going look up in their rear view and see a number of teams gaining fast.

[Spursfanfromafar]

What is noteworthy too is that Larry Brown absolutely loved Diaw. For a coach like Brown, who is similar to Pop in a lot of aspects, Diaw's positive aspects overshadowed his negative ones by a lot. It gives confidence that Diaw will do well under Pop.

As someone who hasn't watched him play much, I must confess that his passing is stupendous.

In the Hornets game, I saw one sequence where he plays the pick and roll with Parker.. After setting the screen, Diaw moved quickly to the elbow and received the pass from Parker from the perimeter. Within a split second of receiving the pass, he flipped it (in the same motion as receiving the pass) to Sjax (or was it Leonard) for a wide open made 3. He seems to have really great vision for a big man who plays the pick and roll game very well.

His defense in the final play in the Hornets game was also very good.

Diaw's acquisition must be the most unassuming one in the league this season and based on the limited sample size, a major one. Hopefully once Splitter is back, we will get to see more interesting combinations.

[Ice009]

Here's a quote from SJax about Diaw


http://blog.mysanantonio.com/spursnation/2012/03/25/how-diaw-can-assist-spurs-yet-again/

Jackson played with Diaw in Charlotte, and he says Diaw’s passing is on another level. “His basketball IQ,” he said, “is through the roof.”

[TDMVPDPOY]

You called Tim Duncan a scrub early in the season. Care to explain that?

only i can judge who or what he is....to be or not to be

[ChumpDumper]

Getting rid of that albatross Jefferson had to be done one way or the other. Credit the F.O. for finally getting it done and correcting their original "mistake". A huge weight was lifted off its shoulders. Now the team is riding an emotional high right now but eventually it will come back down to earth. Pop needs to figure out a steady rotation so the existing guys can build chemistry with the new guys. He can't keep relying on individual talent alone to win games. If he continues to the helter skelter approach I'm afraid as playoff time approaches the spurs are going look up in their rear view and see a number of teams gaining fast.So you have no idea why players were rested this weekend?

[Mr. Body]

Jackson's quote on Diaw is really on point - and this is a great thread.

Jackson and Diaw are both players who understand basketball. Diaw perhaps more than Jack, but really they're both quite smart players. I'm not convinced, for his basketball talents, Jefferson is really a natural for the game.

Implicitly these two guys understand spacing, understand defensive angles, and have good instincts for getting their hands into places for disruption. I can't remember a mid-season change quite as impactful as this one stands to be - perhaps the Malik Rose/Nazr Mohammed trade.

[timvp]

Just because it fits the agenda of this thread: Jackson and Diaw were on the court together for 16 minutes against the Sixers. During those 16 minutes, the Sixers scored only 18 points -- or 54 points per 48 minutes.

:smokin






P.S.

Obviously super small sample sizes but the Spurs have allowed 88.8 points per 48 minutes with Jackson on the court so far, and 65.7 points per 48 minutes with Diaw on the court. And 59.6 points per 48 minutes with both on the court.

:smokin :smokin :smchode:

[silverblackfan]

Just because it fits the agenda of this thread: Jackson and Diaw were on the court together for 16 minutes against the Sixers. During those 16 minutes, the Sixers scored only 18 points -- or 54 points per 48 minutes.

:smokin






P.S.

Obviously super small sample sizes but the Spurs have allowed 88.8 points per 48 minutes with Jackson on the court so far, and 65.7 points per 48 minutes with Diaw on the court. And 59.6 points per 48 minutes with both on the court.

:smokin :smokin :smchode:

I love how you continue to pull out stats that seem to back up what us rabid fans seem to notice in the games. The effect of Jackson and Diaw on the court in just plain defensive attitude is noticeable. Throw in KL and Tim on the floor at the same time and you have one tough team to score on.

[Phenomanul]

I love how you continue to pull out stats that seem to back up what us rabid fans seem to notice in the games. The effect of Jackson and Diaw on the court in just plain defensive attitude is noticeable. Throw in KL and Tim on the floor at the same time and you have one tough team to score on.

Don't forget that when motivated Parker is also a great defender...

[Richie]

Dammit is these kinds of threads that really make me believe we can win it.

It's the hope that kills you

[Maddog]

I'll be honest, but when the trade was made- I thought Jax for Jeff was a modest upgrade.
I still remember the TOs and 0 for nights in 03.
I've changed my mind. Jackson is a significant upgrade. First, when Jefferson's shot wasn't falling he was useless. Already I've seen Jackson create offense. And as mentioned in this thread his effort and physicality on defense is dramatically better than Jefferson.
Diaw while an undersized Big does well and when he switches has quick enough feet to stay with smalls. He is also deceptively "bigger". Good position and long arms (I've seen no wingspan measurements on him, but looks long).

[Solid D]

It would have been nice to have seen Iggy on the court working against them, but the team clearly had a focus on having active hands 1-5...from Parker and Dentmon through Blair, Bonner and Diaw.

[Whisky Dog]

It would have been nice to have seen Iggy on the court working against them, but the team clearly had a focus on having active hands 1-5...from Parker and Dentmon through Blair, Bonner and Diaw.

That's one thing that stood out, at one point the group on the floor was Leonard, Green, Jackson, Bonner, and maybe Diaw. With the exception of Bonner (who inexplicably had about 3 or 4 deflections last night) each of those guys on the court have very long arms and they were active in digging out the ball on penetration or on interior passes. We have some lineups now with guys who have the reach and ability to take the ball from you.

[Seventyniner]

I've thought for a while that Diaw will eventually start once he gets some chemistry developed with his teammates (other then Parker and Jackson). Diaw doesn't mind being the 5th option on offense and can defend 4s better than Blair.

A starting lineup of Parker/Ginobili/Leonard/Diaw/Duncan would be sick.

[Maddog]

Dammit is these kinds of threads that really make me believe we can win it.

It's the hope that kills you
Last year , even during the time when the Spurs had an incredible record, I remained skeptical, I thought it was a little to much like a Phoenix regular season.
This year I think they have a legitimate shot- they are not favorites by any stretch- but if things fall right- they have a shot.

[wut]

Getting rid of that albatross Jefferson had to be done one way or the other. Credit the F.O. for finally getting it done and correcting their original "mistake". A huge weight was lifted off its shoulders. Now the team is riding an emotional high right now but eventually it will come back down to earth. Pop needs to figure out a steady rotation so the existing guys can build chemistry with the new guys. He can't keep relying on individual talent alone to win games. If he continues to the helter skelter approach I'm afraid as playoff time approaches the spurs are going look up in their rear view and see a number of teams gaining fast.

I think this is true, however the defense is undeniably better with the current roster. To me Jax doesn't need much playing time to fit into the Spurs chemistry....he is like a mini-Manu (swiping for steals, running the break, full confidence in big games); on top of the fact that he knows the system and played with Duncan, Parker and Manu. I do believe he needs to work a little with Blair in order to learn pick-n-rolls with him. Diaw is another story when it comes to getting used to the Spurs system. It will not be easy for him....he will need playing time.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

I remember thinking that Diaw was going to be a world class whipping boy for Larry Brown when he got shipped to the Bobcats. So far so good I guess. I wonder if Pop called Larry for any scouting info before they signed Boris or if Pop lost his number after the Jackie Butler fiasco.

[MB3//]

Our team has gone through a re-birth over the last week. You can really see the excitement, and I think that energy is carrying over to our defense.

It's going to be extremely tough for Pop to figure out the best rotations since he has so many options to toy with. Hopefully it will all come together before the playoffs.

This is definitely the most optimistic I've felt about the team in years.

[TJastal]

I've thought for a while that Diaw will eventually start once he gets some chemistry developed with his teammates (other then Parker and Jackson). Diaw doesn't mind being the 5th option on offense and can defend 4s better than Blair.

A starting lineup of Parker/Ginobili/Leonard/Diaw/Duncan would be sick.

Why do you guys keep insisting on bringing Manu back in the starting lineup? Do you not realize that will just limit the touches of Parker who is arguably having an MVP season? Not to mention leave Gary Neal and Patty Mills running the 2nd unit. Do you not enjoy watching Manu make all those incredible passes to Tiago for dunks/layins/etc?

[TJastal]

So you have no idea why players were rested this weekend?

We got a scant 19 games left for Pop to bring the team together, so all I'm saying is he better get a plan together of what's going on, and quickly. He doesn't have the luxury of another half a season to dink around like a kid with his new erector set.

[DesignatedT]

You called Tim Duncan a scrub early in the season. Care to explain that?

There were many on this board calling Duncan done and saying it's now Splitters paint.

Stupid stupid but won't admit it.

[TJastal]

I think this is true, however the defense is undeniably better with the current roster. To me Jax doesn't need much playing time to fit into the Spurs chemistry....he is like a mini-Manu (swiping for steals, running the break, full confidence in big games); on top of the fact that he knows the system and played with Duncan, Parker and Manu. I do believe he needs to work a little with Blair in order to learn pick-n-rolls with him. Diaw is another story when it comes to getting used to the Spurs system. It will not be easy for him....he will need playing time.

I think the team is just riding a wave of emotion at the moment. We'll see over the next few weeks if the spurs can continue to hold teams under 90 points, then I'll be willing to concede the point.

[Redshadows]

Just because it fits the agenda of this thread: Jackson and Diaw were on the court together for 16 minutes against the Sixers. During those 16 minutes, the Sixers scored only 18 points -- or 54 points per 48 minutes.

:smokin






P.S.

Obviously super small sample sizes but the Spurs have allowed 88.8 points per 48 minutes with Jackson on the court so far, and 65.7 points per 48 minutes with Diaw on the court. And 59.6 points per 48 minutes with both on the court.

:smokin :smokin :smchode:
I will wait and see what they two can do against the Lakers and the Grizzlies.

[Dr. John R. Brinkley]

It's an encouraging development. I'm very interested to see how advance metrics show the play of Duncan and Diaw (D n D) together.

[Fabbs]

..... coached by Larry Brown, .... And when it comes to playing for a demanding defensive coach, Larry Brown is the ultimate.

these two ex-Bobcats end up teaching the current players a thing or two about defense.
What a refreshing change. :pop:

At least some teaching may take place now.

[Obstructed_View]

There were many on this board calling Duncan done and saying it's now Splitters paint.

Stupid stupid but won't admit it.

Duncan's playing better this year than he has in the last several. Those that were sure he was capable of this kind of resurgence were likely just hopeful.

[Obstructed_View]

I think the team is just riding a wave of emotion at the moment. We'll see over the next few weeks if the spurs can continue to hold teams under 90 points, then I'll be willing to concede the point.

How many threads are you going to say the same thing over and over and over? Maybe you could find an NFL thread to post this in as well.

[benefactor]

How many threads are you going to say the same thing over and over and over? Maybe you could find an NFL thread to post this in as well.
Brain damaged people tend to just repeat phrases. Tragic, tbh.

[Solid D]

As good as the D looked vs the Sixers, I'm tempering my enthusiasm to see how the Spurs do in their upcoming 3-game mini-series with the Lakers.

[moisaenz]

:lobt2:
And we have Kahwi.

Someone should twit that to J McDonald, that would make for a great question to ask Pop.

The best thing about it is that it doesn't look like a fluke, these two are really doing work on D. On the other hand the O did regress, you can't look at it only one way, but it could get better with more PT (Jackson TOs, Boris finding his place other than the great high screens).

Only jackson has had three days straight to practice with the team. Also keep in mind that Splitter and Diaw have not played together,which is important since our front court lineups are going to be either Duncan/Blair, Splitter/bonner, Splitter/Diaw or Duncand/Diaw... i think the Blair/Bonner lineup should not happen anymore...

[Obstructed_View]

i think the Blair/Bonner lineup should not happen anymore...

Last night shows that those two aren't incapable of success. If nothing else the roster flexibility prevents having to use them when there's a disadvantage to doing it.

[bklynspursfan]

Interesting # I found (Dont know if it's been mentioned already) But the Spurs are 5th overall in Defensive Efficiency @ home 98.6 but 22nd on the road @ 108.2 If we can get more games like the Philly game that would be great. Can't get much worse tbh.

[angelbelow]

There were many on this board calling Duncan done and saying it's now Splitters paint.

Stupid stupid but won't admit it.

Ironic that you're calling others stupid. Those saying that Duncan was done are trolls and those calling for more Splitter have good reason to, and still do.

[jjktkk]

We got a scant 19 games left for Pop to bring the team together, so all I'm saying is he better get a plan together of what's going on, and quickly. He doesn't have the luxury of another half a season to dink around like a kid with his new erector set.

No shit sherlock. Maybe you can email em and give out some of your legendary pointers on coaching.

[jjktkk]

What a refreshing change. :pop:

At least some teaching may take place now.

If only someone could teach you. :depressed

[Obstructed_View]

Interesting # I found (Dont know if it's been mentioned already) But the Spurs are 5th overall in Defensive Efficiency @ home 98.6 but 22nd on the road @ 108.2 If we can get more games like the Philly game that would be great. Can't get much worse tbh.

I'd be willing to bet that a large portion of that is because of the first two weeks of the season when the Spurs played terribly and were blown out in virtually every road game they played.

[T Park]

That an they had Richard Jefferson and no good defensive big men outside of duncan and splitter.

[Obstructed_View]

That an they had Richard Jefferson and no good defensive big men outside of duncan and splitter.

Possibly, but they simply didn't compete in many of those early road games. Can't really pin that on two or three guys.

[Cry Havoc]

Parker is a shitty point guard.

Yep. We know what you think.

[Agloco]

We'll see over the next few weeks if the spurs can continue to hold teams under 90 points, then I'll be willing to concede the point.

Doubtful. On both counts.

[SpursNextRomanEmpire]

Wow, I really had no clue that that Bobcats team was that great defensively.

[DesignatedT]

Those saying that Duncan was done are trolls

No they weren't.


and those calling for more Splitter have good reason to, and still do.

Where did I say Splitter shouldn't play more?

[angelbelow]

No they weren't.



Where did I say Splitter shouldn't play more?

I didn't notice any notable posters claiming that Duncan was "done." I did notice a few takes that painted Duncan in a negative light compared to his prime but I don't think that they were unreasonable. No one could have predicted that Duncan would look so much better than last year - even then, hes only shooting 46% compared to 50% from last year. From 2009-11 there where times were Duncan looked aged. The same posters that made these observations wanted to see more time for Splitter. Specifically, they wanted to see Splitter playing in the low post and Duncan out in the high post.

Statistically, Tiago is the better post up player this year BUT like you, I don't think its a cut and dry situation either. Duncan should get priority and we should ride him when his game is on. However, there are stretches where Duncan has struggled in the post and on the pick and roll. In those moments, the leash should be shorter and a switch up should be initiated.

[DesignatedT]

I'm all for Tiago playing. He would play 30+ minutes a game if I had my way.

I was just stating that many posters (including known posters) were calling Duncan done after his slow start and claiming that Tiago was the better player, the more reliable player and that 4 down "belonged to him now". I'm not going to reel off names but they know who they are.

[ducks]

They are both very "handsy". They dig and pull balls loose. You add that to the reaches of Leonard, Green, Manu and Blair, they created a lot of havoc against Philly. It even rubbed off on Matt Bonner. :wow

booner plays d this team is stacked

[TheSkeptic]

I'm all for Tiago playing. He would play 30+ minutes a game if I had my way.

I was just stating that many posters (including known posters) were calling Duncan done after his slow start and claiming that Tiago was the better player, the more reliable player and that 4 down "belonged to him now". I'm not going to reel off names but they know who they are.

That's fair.

I think it's more for the sake of when you're playing them together. Duncan can shoot, Tiago can't, ergo give Tiago the post and let Duncan go to work from midrange when you play the twin towers.

I would also say that who gets 4 down depends on the game more than anything else.

When Duncan has a throwback game you have to keep giving it to him and maybe you play Tiago more with the bench there. But as a general rule I'd have Tiago playing closer to the basket. In any case, I can see both sides on that particular issue.

Fwiw, I never thought Duncan was done a la Derrick Fisher.

I just think that while he's still a fantastic player he needs more help up front than he did in the past.

Blair is not it and Diaw is better but I'm not sold on him against the bigger frontlines. So I tend to be unsure about Pop and I complain about the Splitter thing because I want to see Duncan and Manu get another :lobt2: before it's all over.

Give the Spurs Dwight Howard and a Pop who cares about size/defense and I don't say very much about Splitter tbh.

[therealtruth]

I didn't notice any notable posters claiming that Duncan was "done." I did notice a few takes that painted Duncan in a negative light compared to his prime but I don't think that they were unreasonable. No one could have predicted that Duncan would look so much better than last year - even then, hes only shooting 46% compared to 50% from last year. From 2009-11 there where times were Duncan looked aged. The same posters that made these observations wanted to see more time for Splitter. Specifically, they wanted to see Splitter playing in the low post and Duncan out in the high post.

Statistically, Tiago is the better post up player this year BUT like you, I don't think its a cut and dry situation either. Duncan should get priority and we should ride him when his game is on. However, there are stretches where Duncan has struggled in the post and on the pick and roll. In those moments, the leash should be shorter and a switch up should be initiated.

That's the advantage of playing both together. You're more likely to have a favorable post matchup and since they're both good passers it helps the shooters. We already know about the defensive benefit but there is a lot of offensive potential in Splitter/TD lineups that Pop can make use of.

[GSH]

Ironic that you're calling others stupid. Those saying that Duncan was done are trolls and those calling for more Splitter have good reason to, and still do.

I remember some people saying that they thought Duncan was done, and sounding heartbroken about it. I think I may have been one of them. If I didn't say it, I sure thought it. But the comments were based on the way he was playing. Was it wrong? Sure. Were they trolls? I think all we have to go by is what we see. It's not unreasonable, at Tim's age, to start worrying, when his play is that bad. Right now, it looks like he could play five more years. But he could decline to his early season levels in a couple of years, too. I guess the comments were premature, but not that stupid.




I'd be willing to bet that a large portion of that is because of the first two weeks of the season when the Spurs played terribly and were blown out in virtually every road game they played.

The Spurs lost their first 6 road games, by an average margin of 13.5 points per game. The Spurs won their fist 6 home games, by an average margin of 13.2 points per game. That represents 25% of the home games they have played, and slightly more than 25% of the road games. That's going to skew the numbers.

[angelbelow]

I remember some people saying that they thought Duncan was done, and sounding heartbroken about it. I think I may have been one of them. If I didn't say it, I sure thought it. But the comments were based on the way he was playing. Was it wrong? Sure. Were they trolls? I think all we have to go by is what we see. It's not unreasonable, at Tim's age, to start worrying, when his play is that bad. Right now, it looks like he could play five more years. But he could decline to his early season levels in a couple of years, too. I guess the comments were premature, but not that stupid.

If you said Duncan was done in that tone, then I was certainly one of them who thought that he was done as well. My point was what you elaborated on, there is nothing wrong with making a reasonable observation. For DT to call them stupid over that is careless IMO.

However, there were a lot of simpleton comments from poor quality posters regarding Duncan being done as well, and those are the trolls I'm referring to.

[GSH]

If you said Duncan was done in that tone, then I was certainly one of them who thought that he was done as well. My point was what you elaborated on, there is nothing wrong with making a reasonable observation. For DT to call them stupid over that is careless IMO.

However, there were a lot of simpleton comments from poor quality posters regarding Duncan being done as well, and those are the trolls I'm referring to.

Oh... those trolls. If you say "day", they say "Manu sucks!" If you say it's good to have Stephen Jackson back, they say "Bench Parker". Those trolls? They're sort of like dust mites. They're always with us, and you just have to pretend like they aren't, or you won't sleep at night.


Edit: Dust mites... not bed lice. That would be gross.

[angelbelow]

Oh... those trolls. If you say "day", they say "Manu sucks!" If you say it's good to have Stephen Jackson back, they say "Bench Parker". Those trolls? They're sort of like dust mites. They're always with us, and you just have to pretend like they aren't, or you won't sleep at night.

Agreed, for the most part I ignore them but I do glance at their comments and either smirk or shake my head in frustration.

I assumed DT was initially talking about troll comments regarding Duncan but it turns out he was partially talking about notable posters lol.

[Obstructed_View]

The Spurs lost their first 6 road games, by an average margin of 13.5 points per game. The Spurs won their fist 6 home games, by an average margin of 13.2 points per game. That represents 25% of the home games they have played, and slightly more than 25% of the road games. That's going to skew the numbers.

I'll be very interested to see how the defensive numbers look going forward. We're not seeing the the great defenders like previous Spurs teams did, but top to bottom this could be the best group they've had in a while.

[L.I.T]

Agreed, for the most part I ignore them but I do glance at their comments and either smirk or shake my head in frustration.

I assumed DT was initially talking about troll comments regarding Duncan but it turns out he was partially talking about notable posters lol.

I remember some of those comments as well. He's probably thinking of TDMVPDPOY who went on an anti-TD jag a while ago.

[buttsR4rebounding]

That's one thing that stood out, at one point the group on the floor was Leonard, Green, Jackson, Bonner, and maybe Diaw. With the exception of Bonner (who inexplicably had about 3 or 4 deflections last night) each of those guys on the court have very long arms and they were active in digging out the ball on penetration or on interior passes. We have some lineups now with guys who have the reach and ability to take the ball from you.

While I think Bonner's defense is underrated a bit he was able to take advantage of the long arms of his teammates. Once balls start getting deflected by the on-ball defenders, passers instinctively will put more arc on the next pass to make sure it gets by his defender. That additional air time gives the intended reciever's defender additional time to react.

[Wild Cobra Kai]

I think the team is just riding a wave of emotion at the moment. We'll see over the next few weeks if the spurs can continue to hold teams under 90 points, then I'll be willing to concede the point.

You really need to have your "My cute neighbor Sarah" moment...

[will_spurs]

Actually the best part this season was the lack of training camp: this way every player was on the same level (even those who joined during the season) and Pop couldn't use his "that wouldn't be fair to the other players/to the team" excuse.

[bklynspursfan]

I'd be willing to bet that a large portion of that is because of the first two weeks of the season when the Spurs played terribly and were blown out in virtually every road game they played.

Good point. But that's still pretty bad at this point. if they can be in the middle of the pack come playoff time I'd be pretty happy

[Horse]

They made dirk cry like a little bitch.

[ace3g]

Paul Coro ‏ @paulcoro

Close

Diaw on returning to Phoenix as a Spur: "I hope they don't boo me. I still like them." ... and on Stern attending: "Irony."

Popovich on Diaw: "Boris has never been in shape. He won't agree with me but just trying to keep it real." Also lauded his hoop IQ, though.

[Mel_13]

Thus far, Stephen Jackson and Boris Diaw look to be rather large upgrades on the defensive end for the Spurs. While neither one has a reputation of being a great defender, here's something to consider: The 2009-10 Charlotte Bobcats, coached by Larry Brown, were the top defensive team in the NBA. Stephen Jackson and Boris Diaw averaged 39.3 minutes and 35.4 minutes on that Bobcats team, respectively.

You have to be doing something right on D to average that many minutes on the league's best defensive team. And when it comes to playing for a demanding defensive coach, Larry Brown is the ultimate. Perhaps we Spurs fans, who haven't seen an elite defense in town in a longer time than we'd like to admit, shouldn't be surprised if these two ex-Bobcats end up teaching the current players a thing or two about defense.

With all the focus on the Diaw history with Parker, most of us didn't notice the connections to Jackson and Brown. Add that to Diaw's very high BBIQ and you a get a late season addition that has a much higher probability of fitting in than someone like Drew Gooden.

[timvp]

Popovich on Diaw: "Boris has never been in shape. He won't agree with me but just trying to keep it real." :lol Not exactly true since Diaw was skinny while with the Hawks ... but at least it doesn't sound like Pop is going to hold being chubby against Diaw.


Edit:

http://cdn2-b.examiner.com/sites/default/files/styles/image_full_width/hash/58/bd/boris_diaw_dribble_220.jpg

Damn, that doesn't even look like the same person.

[Paranoid Pop]

Paul Coro ‏ @paulcoro

Close

Diaw on returning to Phoenix as a Spur: "I hope they don't boo me. I still like them." ... and on Stern attending: "Irony."

Popovich on Diaw: "Boris has never been in shape. He won't agree with me but just trying to keep it real." Also lauded his hoop IQ, though.

"in shape" Diaw > Lebron tbh, Pop is just starting to push his buttons so that he gets in shape by 2013, I'm pretty sure that the 2013 masterplan actually consists of rebuilding the team around him.

6KkrccHEAqg

[mystargtr34]

"in shape" Diaw > Lebron tbh, Pop is just starting to push his buttons so that he gets in shape by 2013, I'm pretty sure that the 2013 masterplan actually consists of rebuilding the team around him.

6KkrccHEAqg

:rollin

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Walton says the fucking weirdest things. :lol

[spursince#99]

Lmao wtf?

[slick'81]

yeah i can still remember a 6'8 200 pound diaw:wow now pushing 230 for sure lol

[DAF86]

:lol Not exactly true since Diaw was skinny while with the Hawks ... but at least it doesn't sound like Pop is going to hold being chubby against Diaw.


Edit:

http://cdn2-b.examiner.com/sites/default/files/styles/image_full_width/hash/58/bd/boris_diaw_dribble_220.jpg

Damn, that doesn't even look like the same person.

If he's going to play as a bigman I preffer for him to keep his extra weight.

[therealtruth]

Diaw is a poor man's Magic Johnson.

[Seventyniner]

Ahh, Bill Walton. Who else could manage to call NBA games while high? That's the only explanation I can think of for the things he says.

[Mel_13]

Ahh, Bill Walton. Who else could manage to call NBA games while high? That's the only explanation I can think of for the things he says.

With as much acid as he dropped, flashbacks probably accounted for most of his more creative moments.

[timvp]

Interesting stats concerning Diaw and the team's defense.

Before the San Antonio signed Diaw, they were allowing 96.8 points per game. In the last four games, the Spurs are allowing 97.7 points per 48 minutes while Diaw isn't in the game. But when Diaw has been on the court, the Spurs are allowing only 69.7 points per 48 minutes.

Now obviously the sample size is small but the early results of adding an above average bigman defender to the mix have been great. And while it seems like the Spurs defense has been better as a whole over the last four games, that's not actually the case. The truth is the Spurs have just really damn good when Diaw is on the court and the same as usual when Diaw has been on the bench.

These Diaw defensive numbers could be a fluke ... but at the very least Pop should take a closer look by giving Diaw a lot more minutes. The Spurs aren't going to hold teams to sub-70 but even if Diaw can help them lower their points allowed number to 92 or 93 points per game, that'd be huge.

[TE]

Interesting stats concerning Diaw and the team's defense.

Before the San Antonio signed Diaw, they were allowing 96.8 points per game. In the last four games, the Spurs are allowing 97.7 points per 48 minutes while Diaw isn't in the game. But when Diaw has been on the court, the Spurs are allowing only 69.7 points per 48 minutes.

Now obviously the sample size is small but the early results of adding an above average bigman defender to the mix have been great. And while it seems like the Spurs defense has been better as a whole over the last four games, that's not actually the case. The truth is the Spurs have just really damn good when Diaw is on the court and the same as usual when Diaw has been on the bench.

These Diaw defensive numbers could be a fluke ... but at the very least Pop should take a closer look by giving Diaw a lot more minutes. The Spurs aren't going to hold teams to sub-70 but even if Diaw can help them lower their points allowed number to 92 or 93 points per game, that'd be huge.

+1

I've noticed Diaw using his excess girth to his advantage. He doesn't get pushed around a lot in the post... He kinda reminds me of a more agile and versatile Kurt Thomas. Also, have you noticed how long his reach is? Dude has some long ass arms and that helps him strip the ball. He sure doesn't play above the rim, but he more than makes up for it with stellar solid play below it.

[Mel_13]

Interesting stats concerning Diaw and the team's defense.

Before the San Antonio signed Diaw, they were allowing 96.8 points per game. In the last four games, the Spurs are allowing 97.7 points per 48 minutes while Diaw isn't in the game. But when Diaw has been on the court, the Spurs are allowing only 69.7 points per 48 minutes.

Now obviously the sample size is small but the early results of adding an above average bigman defender to the mix have been great. And while it seems like the Spurs defense has been better as a whole over the last four games, that's not actually the case. The truth is the Spurs have just really damn good when Diaw is on the court and the same as usual when Diaw has been on the bench.

These Diaw defensive numbers could be a fluke ... but at the very least Pop should take a closer look by giving Diaw a lot more minutes. The Spurs aren't going to hold teams to sub-70 but even if Diaw can help them lower their points allowed number to 92 or 93 points per game, that'd be huge.

The Diaw/Bonner combo has been amazing. Diaw has played slightly more than half his minutes with Bonner.

With Bonner:
Pts scored per 48: 114.53
Pts allowed per 48: 67.44

With others:
Pts scored per 48: 86.63
Pts allowed per 48: 72.43

[Solid D]

There is no question the Spurs are better defensively when Boris is on the court. The bigger girth version of Diaw is a plus because he can now defend the post with leverage. That is something Boris could not do when he was.... well, when he was a French Josh Childress.

[Mel_13]

Sebastian Pruit on Diaw's offensive impact:

http://nbaplaybook.com/2012/03/28/boris-diaws-hidden-impact/

[therealtruth]

The Diaw/Bonner combo has been amazing. Diaw has played slightly more than half his minutes with Bonner.

With Bonner:
Pts scored per 48: 114.53
Pts allowed per 48: 67.44

With others:
Pts scored per 48: 86.63
Pts allowed per 48: 72.43

It seems similar to the Splitter-Bonner combo. Maybe this will help get Splitter in the starting lineup. Diaw can do his job with the second unit and the starting lineup gets better defense and more post offense and pick and roll ability. As good as Blair's early offense is Splitter can be even better, shoot a higher percentage, draw fouls and play defense.

[timvp]

Bump.







Before acquiring Jackson and Diaw, the Spurs allowed 102.3 points per 100 possessions. Since then, the Spurs have allowed 99.1 points per 100 possessions over a span of 16 games.

For the season, 99.1 is a better mark than any other team in the Western Conference.

[DBMethos]

Bobcat power

[Cant_Be_Faded]

But what's our defensive fg%?

Ain't that the real defensive stat to point to?

[DesignatedT]

:tu

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

If he's going to play as a bigman I preffer for him to keep his extra weight.

TBH looking at him then and now reminds me of the difference between Rockets Horry and Spurs Horry. Different offensive games, but their defensive strengths are very similar.

[Seventyniner]

Basketball-reference has the Spurs at #2 in offsensive efficiency and #11 in defense. Defense had been in the mid teens for a long time, though, so the defense has definitely improved recently.

[Mel_13]

Basketball-reference has the Spurs at #2 in offsensive efficiency and #11 in defense. Defense had been in the mid teens for a long time, though, so the defense has definitely improved recently.

The top 6 teams in defensive efficiency are all in the East.

The Spurs are now 3rd out of 15 Western Conference teams in that metric.

[NASpurs]

But what's our defensive fg%?

Ain't that the real defensive stat to point to?

That was so last decade. Get with the times man. Now it's all about advanced stats like points per 48 minutes, 100 possessions, pace factor, etc. :lol