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Winehole23
03-28-2012, 12:34 PM
jeremiah goulka worked as a lawyer in the bush justice department, and then went to work as an analyst with the rand corporation, where he was sent to iraq to analyze, among other things, the iranian dissident group mujahedin-e khalq (mek), publishing an oft-cited (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/13/us/us-supporters-of-iranian-group-mek-face-scrutiny.html) study (http://www.rand.org/pubs/monographs/mg871.html) on the group. Mek has been in the news of late because a high-powered bipartisan cast (http://www.salon.com/2012/03/12/washingtons_high_powered_terrorist_supporters/) of former washington officials have established close ties with the group and have been vocally advocating on its behalf, often in exchange for large payments, despite mek’s having been formally designated (http://www.state.gov/j/ct/rls/other/des/123085.htm) by the u.s. Government as a terrorist organization. That close association on the part of numerous washington officials with a terrorist organization has led to a formal federal investigation (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/13/us/us-supporters-of-iranian-group-mek-face-scrutiny.html) of those officials. Goulka has written and supplied to me two superb op-eds on the mek controversy — one about the group itself and the other explaining why so many prominent washington officials are openly providing material support to this designated terror group — and i’m publishing the two op-eds below with his consent (as you read them, remember that paid mek shill howard dean actually called on (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/14/opinion/sunday/an-iranian-cult-and-its-american-friends.html?pagewanted=all) its leader to be recognized as president of iran while paid mek shill rudy giuliani has continuously hailed the group’s benevolence).


Before posting those op-eds, i want to note one update on this matter: Supporters of MEK have filed a lawsuit asking a federal court to force the state department to decide within 30 days whether to remove MEK from the list of designated terrorist organizations (state department officials have previously indicated they are considering doing so). In response, secretary of state Hillary Clinton has told the court (http://security.blogs.cnn.com/2012/03/27/state-dept-to-court-dont-meddle-with-terror-list-decisions/) that (1) it has no role to play in directing the timing of this decision (“any interference by a court with the secretary’s ability to carry out these absolutely critical duties would set a seriously troubling precedent”); and (2) the US Government is currently attempting to force mek to move from its current base in Camp Ashraf to another location in Iraq (something MEK does not want to do), and whether MEK cooperates with the US Government’s directives will play a large role in determining whether the group is removed from the terrorist list.

With regard to that second argument: In determining whether MEK belongs on the terrorist list, what conceivable difference should it make whether MEK is cooperative in moving from camp ashraf as the US Government wants? What does their cooperation or lack thereof have to do with whether they are a terrorist organization? The answer, of course, is that the US List of terrorist organizations (like its list of state sponsors of terrorism) has little or nothing to do with who are and are not actually terrorists; it is, instead, simply an instrument used to reward those who comply with US Dictates (you’re no longer a terrorist) and to punish those who refuse (you are hereby deemed terrorists). The scholarship of Remi Brulin (http://www.salon.com/2010/03/14/terrorism_20/) documents how terrorism, from its prominent introduction into world affairs, has been manipulated that way. Andrew Exum of the Center for a New American Security yesterday objected to my argument (http://www.cnas.org/blogs/abumuqawama/2012/03/terrorism-experts.html) that the field of “terrorism expertise” is basically fraudulent because the concept of “terrorism” itself is largely propagandistic and ideological, rather than being some meaningful term with a fixed, coherent definition. His commenters have very effectively addressed his claims, but this game-playing with mek is yet another example underscoring what I mean.
__________________________________
by Jeremiah Goulka

the Iran war hawks’ favorite cult group



Despite the flurry of support by some prominent politicians as secretary of state hillary clinton scrutinizes its case, the Mujahedin-e Khalq (MEK),a dissident iranian group based in iraq with a propaganda arm in Paris, is no enigma.

The US. Declared the mek a terrorist organization 13 years ago partly because the group is thought to have assassinated three US Army officers and three US Civilian contractors in Tehran in the 1970s. The group’s pep rallies feature US Politicians lured with high fees to come speak on its behalf. The MEK wants the US. Government to take the group off its terrorist list – as the EU And UK Have already done. But before that happens the group requires close scrutiny.



I studied the MEK for the US Military and visited Camp Ashraf, the MEK facility 40 miles north of Baghdad. I also interviewed former MEK members. As Human Rights Watch also concluded, I saw that the MEKis a cult. It uses brainwashing, sleep deprivation, and forced labor to indoctrinate members. It segregates men from women, mandates celibacy, forces married members to divorce (except for its leaders), and separates families and friends who must seek permission just to converse.

MEK members must report their private sexual thoughts at group meetings and endure public shaming. In a catch-22, those who deny having sexual thoughts are accused of hiding them and shamed, too. The cult has but one purpose: To put itself in charge in Iran.

A brief history lesson illuminates how the MEK transformed from a radical student group in 1965 to what it is today. When the MEK was founded it embraced both marxism and islam and dedicated itself to the violent overthrow of the shah of Iran. All this is reflected in its name, the “people’s holy warriors.” by 1979 the mek evolved into a major movement that threatened ayatollah khomeini’s dominance after the iranian revolution. He suppressed the group, executing some leaders and imprisoning others. In 1981 some MEK leaders escaped in a stolen plane. Among these was Masoud Rajavi. Exiled to paris, he established the National Council of Resistance of Iran (NCRI), an umbrella organization of Iranian dissident groups opposed to Khomeini. The NCRI soon became the propaganda arm of the MEK. Rajavi’s wife, Maryam, runs the NCRI, which is also on the US Terror list. She calls herself “president-elect” of the NCRI’s “parliament-in-exile.”

When Saddam Hussein waged war against Iran, Rajavi moved the MEK from Paris to Iraq. His alliance with Saddam in a brutally violent war cost the MEK credibility and its font of recruits. Isolated in Iraq’s desert, Rajavi instituted authoritarian control over his decimated army and confiscated his troops’ assets. He encouraged Saddam to send Iranian POWs to MEK’s Camp Ashraf rather than repatriate them. With promises of asylum for POWs and family reunions with the new MEK members, Rajavi duped Iranian visitors to come to the camp and stole their passports so they couldn’t leave.

Human Rights Watch reports that those who tried to escape endured confinement or torture. After the US Invaded Iraq, the MEK ejected its most “difficult” members and used guards and concertina wire to entrap the rest. Members must swear allegiance to Masoud and Maryam, whose pictures are in every building at Camp Ashraf. But these days Maryam’s is the public face of the NCRI. Masoud Rajavi mysteriously disappeared in 2003.

Maryam trumpets the dangers of Iran’s nuclear program and gives the NCRI credit for discovering Iran’s Natanz nuclear facility. That self-serving claim is doubtful, as is the NCRI’s posture as a democratic government-in-waiting. While its propaganda arm espouses western values to western audiences, the MEK continues to force-feed its doctrine to members who may not criticize the Rajavis and are not free to leave the ashraf compound.

While many people would like to see a change of regime in Tehran, no one should believe that the MEK would provide Iran with a government based on liberty and justice for all. Indeed, based upon its treatment of its own adherents in Iraq, a MEK regime might not be much improvement over the current one.
________________
by Jeremiah Goulka

investigations begin into mek supporters
The US Treasury department has begun an investigation (http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2012/03/16) into nearly two dozen prominent former government officials who have been paid tens of thousands of dollars to promote the Mujahedin-e Khalq (mek), an Iranian dissident cult group that has been designated by the State Department as a foreign terrorist organization (FTO) since 1997.

These officials include several prominent George W. Bush administration anti-terror officials like Homeland Security secretary Tom Ridge, Homeland Security advisor Frances Fragos Townsend, Attorney General Michael Mukasey, UN Ambassador John Bolton; as well as former republican mayor of New York, Rudolph Giuliani; former democratic governors Ed Rendell of Pennsylvania and Howard Dean of Vermont; ex-FBI director Louis Freeh; and retired chairman of the joint chiefs of staff gen. Hugh Shelton. These former officials have given speeches at home and abroad urging the State Department to remove the MEK from the FTO list.

Given the cacophony of saber-rattling (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/19/world/pro-israel-groups-differing-approaches-on-iran.html?pagewanted=all) over Iran’s alleged nuclear weapons program – which the u.s. Intelligence community generally believes (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/18/world/middleeast/iran-intelligence-crisis-showed-difficulty-of-assessing-nuclear-data.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all) was shut down in 2003 – and the risk, however low (http://politics.salon.com/2012/03/12/washingtons_high_powered_terrorist_supporters/singleton/), of actually getting prosecuted for “material support of terrorism (http://ccrjustice.org/learn-more/faqs/factsheet%3a-material-support),” it is important to examine why anyone would promote a designated terrorist organization.


what is the MEK?

The mek – which is also known as the People’s Mujahedin of iran (PMOI) and often operates through its Paris-based propaganda arm, the National Council of Resistance of Iran (NCRI) – is an Iranian dissident group that once-upon-a-time was a significant force in Iranian politics. Created to oppose the Shah in 1965, the MEK lost out to Ayatollah Khomeini after the Iranian revolution, and the mullahs have been the MEK’s target ever since. The regime brutally suppressed the group, forcing it to go underground and its leaders into exile. Most mek members are now based in Iraq, where they have lived since joining forces with Saddam Hussein in 1986 during the iran-iraq war. (for more history of the MEK, see the appendices here (http://www.rand.org/pubs/monographs/mg871.html).)

Collaborating with Saddam was the MEK’s greatest mistake. Saddam started that war, which was a catastrophe for Iran, but he didn’t win and didn’t install the MEK as the new government. In the process, the MEK killed Iranian soldiers and thereby killed off whatever credibility it once had.

The MEKclaims to be the best organized and the most prominent opposition group in Iran. No credible sources that I have seen suggest that it has any relevance in Iran at all, other than to get the mullahs riled up. It is, however, very well organized, because, cut off from new volunteers, the MEK’s co-leaders Masoud Rajavi (whereabouts unknown) and his wife Maryam Rajavi turned the MEK into a cult of personality.

The MEK vigorously denies that it is a cult, accusing critics of working for the Iranian regime or performing inadequate research (using the tactics of climate change, evolution, and tobacco denialists). However, I studied (http://www.rand.org/pubs/monographs/mg871.html) the MEK in depth and over a period of many months for the US Military. I visited Camp Ashraf, the MEK facility 40 miles north of baghdad, and interviewed MEK members, former MEK members, and dozens of military and civilian officials. Along with almost all of my interviewees and Human Rights Watch (http://www.hrw.org/legacy/backgrounder/mena/iran0505/), i concluded that the MEK is a cult. It employs many common cult practices: Mandated celibacy and divorce, thought control, sleep deprivation, and forced labor. It segregates men from women, separates families and friends – who must seek permission just to converse – and even tells family members back home that the members are dead.

why would any American politicians support the MEK?

Getting off the FTO list is a stepping-stone to the MEK’s main goal: Getting America to install it as the new government of Iran. Why would American politicians want that? There are two main reasons, neither of them good.


The first is ignorance. The MEK presents itself well and is good at running “astroturf” campaigns (http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=astroturf). Its NCRI is a self-proclaimed “parliament in exile,” dedicated to the principles of western liberal democracy. Over the years, lots of american civilian and military officials have failed to do their homework and fallen for the MEK’s sales spiel, excited as they were to hear what they wanted to hear. (if something sounds too good to be true…)

Does this remind you of Ahmed Chalabi and the Iraqi National Congress? It should. As Ali Gharib has shown, the same people (http://www.lobelog.com/neocon-iran-policy-committee-tied-to-disgraced-iraqi-national-congress/) who helped Chalabi push us into Iraq are now orchestrating public events where former officials promote the MEK.

The second reason is money. The officials were paid to speak on the MEK’s behalf, up to $30,000 per speech (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/13/us/us-supporters-of-iranian-group-mek-face-scrutiny.html). Not bad for a few minutes work.

But this is just the beginning. What the media has generally failed to mention is that these former officials are now in the national/homeland security business. Just take a quick look around wikipedia, forbes, and opensecrets.org, and here is what you will find:


Tom Ridge has his own security consultancy (ridge global, llc) and lobbying firm (ridge policy group). He chairs the u.s. Chamber of commerce’s national security task force and sits on the boards of at least one military contractor (techradium, inc.) and one company (geospatial corporation) that serves the oil and gas industry.
Francis Fragos Townsend chairs an industry association for intelligence contractors (the intelligence and national security alliance) and is the head of lobbying for a holding company (Macandrews & Forbes holdings inc.) that owns the military contractor AM General.
Rudolph Giuliani has a security consulting firm (Giuliani Partners) and is a partner in a law firm with prominent oil and gas and lobbying practices (Bracewell & Giuliani). He used to own a private equity fund that teamed up with Bear Stearns to invest in security companies.
Louis Freeh has a security and investigations consulting firm (Freeh Group International Solutions, LLC) and a law firm (Freeh Sporkin & Sullivan, LLC), where he represents, among other clients, a Saudi prince in a bribery investigation involving an arms deal (http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2009-04-07/news/0904060625_1_prince-bandar-saudi-arabia-saudi-government).
Hugh Shelton has served on the boards of directors of several military contractors, such as l-3 communications, CACI International, inc., and Protective Products of America, inc.
Bolton, Mukasey, Rendell, and Dean are affiliated with major law firms whose clients include not just standard military contractors but many other more mundane corporations, as expert Nick Turse has shown (http://www.tomdispatch.com/books/175165/the_complex%3a_how_the_military_invades_our_everyd ay_lives/), also benefit from military largesse. (Bolton is also affiliated with several pro-war think tanks.)

For people in the national/homeland security business, war with Iran would be a cash cow. They and their clients stand to benefit handsomely. Just stoking fears of war can get money flowing, from studies (http://www.boozallen.com/consulting/informed-decisions/mission-analytics/persia-house) to retrofitting naval vessels (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-01-31/uss-ponce-isn-t-persian-gulf-seal-mothership-admiral-says.html). Bombing would be better, as even something as small as the Libyan war involved spending more than a billion dollars (http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2011/06/obama-administration-libya-operation-has-cost-more-than-716-million-does-not-require-congressional-a/). But full-on war, that’s the mother lode. An invasion followed by an iraq-style lingering occupation and reconstruction would open up hundreds of billions and possibly even trillions of taxpayer dollars for the grabbing (http://www.businesspundit.com/the-25-most-vicious-iraq-war-profiteers/).

Hopefully these treasury department investigations are a sign that the obama administration has finally decided to rein in the warmongers. Ignorance, profit, and the dreams of a terrorist-cult group are lousy reasons to start a war.


http://www.salon.com/2012/03/28/guest_op_ed_mek_and_its_material_supporters_in_was hington/singleton/

Winehole23
03-29-2012, 01:04 AM
MEK is on the State Department's FTO list. Numerous US officials have lobbied for the MEK, or took money to speak well of them.

How is that not material support for terrorism?

Winehole23
03-29-2012, 06:16 AM
as usual the political elite gets a walkover for activities that would land you or me in jail

Winehole23
04-05-2012, 04:03 AM
and have already landed many swarthy gentlemen of ME extraction in the hoosegow

Winehole23
04-05-2012, 04:05 AM
for doing far far less

Winehole23
04-08-2012, 01:29 PM
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/newsdesk/2012/04/mek.html

diego
04-08-2012, 09:27 PM
real quiet in here. Nobody wants to send these guys to guantanamo, bomb their houses (who cares if they have children or neighbors?), then waterboard these guys? Or just send a predator drone, Awlaki style? I guess you guys really ARE broke, letting those terrorist supporters off even when they're across the street.

Winehole23
04-09-2012, 12:22 AM
real quiet in hereit's radioactive, apparently

Winehole23
05-15-2012, 11:58 AM
The Obama administration is moving to remove an Iranian opposition group from the State Department's terrorism list, say officials briefed on the talkshttp://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303505504577404473860446952.html?m od=wsj_share_tweet

Winehole23
05-15-2012, 12:01 PM
In 2003, when the Bush adminstration was advocating an attack on Iraq, one of the prime reasons it cited was “Saddam Hussein’s Support for International Terrorism.” It circulated a document (http://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/infocus/iraq/decade/sect5.html) purporting to prove that claim (h/t Hernlem (http://www.salon.com/2012/05/15/likely_victory_for_mek_shills/singleton/#postID=12920624&page=0&comment=4247086)), and one of the first specific accusations listed was this:
Iraq shelters terrorist groups including the Mujahedin-e-Khalq Organization (MKO), which has used terrorist violence against Iran and in the 1970s was responsible for killing several U.S. military personnel and U.S. civilians.
So the group that was pointed to less than a decade ago as proof of Saddam’s Terrorist Evil is now glorified by both political parties in Washington and — now that it’s fighting for the U.S. and Israel rather than for Saddam — is no longer a Terror group.
http://www.salon.com/2012/05/15/likely_victory_for_mek_shills/singleton/

Marcus Bryant
05-16-2012, 12:05 AM
Ciizenship and laws are for the little people.

FuzzyLumpkins
05-16-2012, 02:19 AM
It's the closest thing to a unified antiestablishment Iranian political entity that there is. It's sad that our foreign policy 'establishment' latched onto them. it's hardly some form of new US policy. We have gotten in bed with much worse than that.

Also, what government in the history of man has not given special privilege to it's elites? Once you accept that, it becomes a matter of degree. Do not get me wrong, I agree that the trend is not good for us plebeians but it is what it is.

I wish people would focus on what needs to be done to correct it rather than complain about actions that should have been more than obvious over the last 200 years.

Winehole23
05-16-2012, 08:04 AM
It's the closest thing to a unified antiestablishment Iranian political entity that there is.odd thing, it's also the closest thing to a Marxist millenialist cult, responsible for the death of US personnel in the 1970s.

It's sad that our foreign policy 'establishment' latched onto them. it's hardly some form of new US policy. We have gotten in bed with much worse than that.

Also, what government in the history of man has not given special privilege to it's elites? Once you accept that, it becomes a matter of degree. Do not get me wrong, I agree that the trend is not good for us plebeians but it is what it is.

I wish people would focus on what needs to be done to correct it rather than complain about actions that should have been more than obvious over the last 200 years.yes, it is sad that peabrains make silly excuses for a corrupt order and genuflect to the mere fact of its existence.

Winehole23
05-16-2012, 01:26 PM
On May 21, 1975 (http://books.google.com/books?id=kP_WxbkSokIC&lpg=PA255&ots=sFnlThlVv3&dq=%22paul%20shaffer%22%20dayton%20ohio%20iran&pg=PA255#v=onepage&q=%22paul%20shaffer%22%20dayton%20ohio%20iran&f=false), Col. Paul Shaffer, a military attaché to the US mission in Iran, kissed his wife and two children goodbye, and entered a waiting car with his colleague, Lt. Col. Jack Turner, whose wife was getting their three children ready for school. It was the last time the families of these two US servicemen would see them alive.


As the Iranian driver pulled into a side street to avoid traffic a car blocked their passage and another car rammed them from behind. Three gunmen appeared and fired at the two Americans pointblank, killing them instantly: the three escaped in a third car, leaving a leaflet on the blood-drenched seat. The leaflet denounced “US imperialism” and bore the imprint of the Mujahedin-e-Khalq (http://rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/peoples_muhajedin_of_iran_mek) (MEK), or “People’s Crusaders,” a Marxist-Islamist group led by Massoud (http://www.iran-e-azad.org/english/masoud.html) and Maryam Rajavi (http://www.iran-e-azad.org/english/president.html).



All in all, the MEK killed 6 Americans (http://skippy-posts.blogspot.com/2010/07/hey-lets-de-list-mek-as-terrorist.html) in Iran: Lt. Col. Louis Lee Hawkins, an Army comptroller, cut down by gunman in front of his Tehran home, and William Cottrell, Donald Smith, and Robert Krongard, all employees of Rockwell International. They wounded Air Force Gen. Harold L. Price, and tried and failed to kidnap the US ambassador, Douglas MacArthur II. After the Iranian Revolution, the MEK supported the takeover of the US embassy in Tehran, opposed the release of the diplomats – calling a mass demonstration in protest – and demanded their execution.
http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2012/05/15/hillarys-terrorists/

Winehole23
05-16-2012, 01:31 PM
Today, the MEK is campaigning to be taken off the US State Department’s list of terrorist organizations – and they’re on the brink of success. According to (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303505504577404473860446952.html?m od=wsj_share_tweet) the Wall Street Journal:


“Senior U.S. officials said on Monday that Secretary of State Hillary Clinton has yet to make any final decision on the MeK’s status. But they said the State Department was looking favorably at delisting MeK if it continued cooperating by vacating a former paramilitary base inside Iraq, called Camp Ashraf, which the group had used to stage cross-border strikes into Iran.”

What the article fails to mention is that those “cross border strikes into Iran” took place during the 1980-88 Iran-Iraq war (http://exile.ru/articles/detail.php?ARTICLE_ID=7113&IBLOCK_ID=35), when the MEK enjoyed the patronage of Saddam Hussein: MEK cadre fought on the Iraqi side (http://www.niacouncil.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=7563) during that conflict. They also were useful to Saddam in repressing internal enemies of the regime: after the 1991 Gulf war, MEK fighters were used by Saddam to crush uprisings (http://attackerman.firedoglake.com/2010/12/23/take-the-kurds-under-your-tanks-and-save-your-bullets-for-the-iranian-revolutionary-guards/) in the south and in Iraqi Kurdistan. Maryam Rajavi told her followers: “Take the Kurds under your tanks, and save your bullets for the Iranian Revolutionary Guards.”
same

Winehole23
05-16-2012, 01:31 PM
MEK has been described as a cult, most notably in a scary report (http://www.iran.org/humanrights/HRW-MEKreport.pdf) by Human Rights Watch, a fascinating Al Jazeera video report (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDlNWErYCGw), and in a remarkable piece (http://cscs.umich.edu/%7Ecrshalizi/sloth/2003-07-15.html) by Elizabeth Rubin in the New York Times. Rubin relates the testimony of Salahaddin Mukhtadi, an Iranian historian living in exile, who says dissident MEK members “are locked up if they disagree with anything. And sometimes killed.” In the MEK cult, having particular friendships is strictly forbidden: sitting and talking together is considered a crime, especially when the subject is one’s past life before joining the cult. Wives are ordered to divorce their husbands, celibacy is mandatory, and families are broken up: nothing must come between the members and their devotion to the cause. Forced confessions and “criticism sessions” occur on a daily basis, in which participants are subjected to group abuse called “ideological cleansings.”same

FuzzyLumpkins
05-16-2012, 02:40 PM
odd thing, it's also the closest thing to a Marxist millenialist cult, responsible for the death of US personnel in the 1970s.
yes, it is sad that peabrains make silly excuses for a corrupt order and genuflect to the mere fact of its existence.

Genuflect? Excuses? And you deign to call me pretentious? At least I limit mine to diction.

All I ever hear from you are complaints about the system. Elites are amok, banks are amok, civil liberties are eroding. My 'genuflect to the mere fact of its existence' was a commentary that unless you have had your head in the sand, this trend has been more than obvious. Your dig was just more of your typical passive aggressive claptrap.

I never made excuses for the MEK's actions. I just pointed to how our foreign policy operates. We have no issues historically negotiating with totalitarians. lol Marxist. i missed the part in the Manifesto about Mind Control and incarceration of adherents.

US foreign policy has gotten in bed with these types especially in the Middle East for centuries now. Does the Shah of Iran ring any bells? Sheik Saud. The Yemeni's, Karzai, Cambodia, China, Burma, Congo, Angola, Somalia, etc.

The point that i was trying to make was perhaps instead of making complaints about things your entire demesne, you could try proposing solutions.

You even do the same with me. It's pretty obvious that you have a strong distaste for me but all you do is this passive aggressive bitching. Petty and unfounded digs that all boil down to the same type of complaining that you do everything else.

'Less drinking, more thinking,' I say.

Winehole23
05-16-2012, 03:11 PM
The point that i was trying to make was perhaps instead of making complaints about things your entire demesne, you could try proposing solutions. I could, but this is this is a discussion board. It's ok to just discuss. You may think yourself somewhat above it for proposing radical solutions, but you're not.

Winehole23
05-16-2012, 03:14 PM
lol demesne

FuzzyLumpkins
05-16-2012, 03:44 PM
I could, but this is this is a discussion board. It's ok to just discuss. You may think yourself somewhat above it for proposing radical solutions, but you're not.

Who said anything about radical? That's just a relativist and *gasp* dismissive interpretation.

:lol 'You may think yourself somewhat above it'

That coming from you is rich. Your entire crusade for the last couple of days has been trying to put me in my relative place. I wish you would stop projecting yourself onto me.

Anyway thanks for revealing that the US and elites align themselves with extremist groups that are at odds with enemy states of the US regardless of the ideals of said group. In other news, industrial and financial elites write policy for all levels of government with overall too much access and immunity and make sure you do not forget: water is wet.

Winehole23
05-16-2012, 07:43 PM
it bears repeating some animals are more equal than others. you might be jaded, but the demise of the rule of law in the US, like the emergence of a multi-tiered justice system, is of fairly recent vintage.

FuzzyLumpkins
05-16-2012, 08:32 PM
This incarnation certainly but to think that its some new phenomenon is just to ignore history like for example the 19the century.

If history is any example the general populace won't much care unless the bottom really falls out. You are a clear example of someone that watches but disdains action. Radical i believe you characterized it as.

Winehole23
05-16-2012, 11:03 PM
more strawman and bullshit

:sleep

FuzzyLumpkins
05-17-2012, 12:58 AM
I could, but this is this is a discussion board. It's ok to just discuss. You may think yourself somewhat above it for proposing radical solutions, but you're not.

Yeah strawman......

Winehole23
05-17-2012, 09:37 AM
I never made excuses for the MEK's actions.No, you excused elite politicians for lobbying on the MEK's behalf in the name of realpolitik -- one rule for us (prison), another (tolerance and excuses) for politicians who lobby for terrorists.

Winehole23
05-17-2012, 11:29 AM
Some governments refuse to tolerate the use of terrorist tactics under any circumstances, but some tacitly or openly endorse the use of such tactics when the targets happen to be the “right” ones. Unfortunately, when it comes to dealing with Iran, the U.S. has adopted the second approach. The U.S. attitude towards the MEK over the decades is a good example of how very changeable governments can be. At one point, the MEK was obviously an anti-American terrorist organization responsible for the deaths of American citizens. Later, Hussein’s support for the MEK was unimportant, because Hussein was perceived as the lesser of two evils in the conflict between Iran and Iraq. Once Hussein’s Iraq became the main regional enemy, his support for the MEK was suddenly turned into part of the indictment against him. Once Hussein was overthrown, not only was the MEK no longer to be considered a terrorist group, but in some circles it was seen as a valuable ally in opposing the Iranian regime. According to some reports, the Obama administration is on the verge of capitulating to the disgraceful campaign to have this terrorist group removed from the FTO list. It is somewhat fitting that the MEK is a terrorist group that is not recognized by the vast majority of Iranians in Iran or in the diaspora as “freedom fighters.” The only people foolish enough to believe that the MEK is interested in anyone’s freedom are those paid to say so and those so hostile to Iran that they will ally with anyone with the same goal of regime change.http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/of-terrorists-and-freedom-fighters/

Winehole23
05-17-2012, 11:30 AM
It's the closest thing to a unified antiestablishment Iranian political entity that there isDo Iranians recognize it as such?

FuzzyLumpkins
05-17-2012, 03:29 PM
No, you excused elite politicians for lobbying on the MEK's behalf in the name of realpolitik -- one rule for us (prison), another (tolerance and excuses) for politicians who lobby for terrorists.

You need to look up the definition of excuse. Theft is common on UT campus. That does not excuse it, it just makes fixating on individual cases of it asinine.

FuzzyLumpkins
05-17-2012, 03:36 PM
Do Iranians recognize it as such?

Some do; I am not sure. I was speaking more to how the Iranian security forces have done an excellent job of squashing anything that resembles an opposition political entity.

There are plenty of examples of the US hooking up with questionable political opposition parties in South American and Asia over the last oh i don't know century. The Chileans were extra special pissed by it.

My point is that its systemic but unfortunately you just dismiss any notions of change to said system as radical and fixate on an individual spectacle of it.

Winehole23
05-17-2012, 04:09 PM
if you say so

Winehole23
05-17-2012, 04:19 PM
You need to look up the definition of excuse. Theft is common on UT campus. That does not excuse it...Is lobbying for listed terrorist groups common?

FuzzyLumpkins
05-17-2012, 04:29 PM
Is American elites getting away with felonies due to refusal to prosecute common? Is the illegal intervention into foreign nation states by the US common?

I am talking about the systemic impunity of US elites and the behavior of the CIA, NSA etc. This type of behavior is an extension of that and at this point has become tradition.

We can play the label game if you want. You are reminding me of Poptech in how he does it. Oh and who was bin-Laden associated with in the 1980s that the US was also associated with.

I'll take the answer off the air.

Winehole23
05-17-2012, 04:33 PM
the impunity of elites and corrupt administration is asinine to bring up, point out, discuss whatever, because it's happening all the time?

(unless of course, we're discussing it in a way you approve...)

FuzzyLumpkins
05-17-2012, 04:45 PM
the impunity of elites and corrupt administration is asinine to bring up, point out, discuss whatever, because it's happening all the time?

(unless of course, we're discussing it in a way you approve...)

:lol Need a tissue?

I gave my opinion. Deal with it. Well I guess this passive aggressive whining is your way of dealing with it. Now you try and label me.

You can do whatever you want.

Do you disagree that the cause of issues that this particular issue that you are discussing is systemic? Do you disagree that its a trend that been going on for a long time?

So far you haven't. Your issue is that the opinion comes from me. Oh well.

FuzzyLumpkins
05-17-2012, 05:27 PM
(unless of course, we're discussing it in a way you approve...)

You have the temerity to say this?

Your entire crusade against me this year is how you do not approve of my methodology. You try and talk to me about charm and pretentiousness or other passive aggressive steering. You are a fraud when it comes to those standards.

For some reason I just fail to empathize. Cognitive dissonance will do that I suppose.

With all due respect --because at this point you are due none-- go fuck yourself.

Winehole23
05-17-2012, 11:40 PM
on my own time -- I'm not a trained monkey

Winehole23
05-17-2012, 11:43 PM
Do you disagree that the cause of issues that this particular issue that you are discussing is systemic? Do you disagree that its a trend that been going on for a long time?Not necessarily. Don't think I did anyway. Seems to me I conceded corruption is commonplace, just don't share your jadedness about it.

Winehole23
05-17-2012, 11:44 PM
You have the temerity to say this?Yep. With you the conversation more or less ends wherever you disagree. Face it: you're an intolerant jerk.

FuzzyLumpkins
05-17-2012, 11:54 PM
Not necessarily. Don't think I did anyway. Seems to me I conceded corruption is commonplace, just don't share your jadedness about it.

Ignore the context as if my very next sentence didn't comment on your conceding the point.

And of course sidestep your hypocrisy towards trying to police other's methods. You are so completely disingenuous.

And do not try and characterize my position with shading adjectives. Just concede that they are historical trends from Kissinger and his intervention in Eastern Europe and Latin America in the sovereignty of states through Reagan and his similar tactics all the way through our last two presidents.

I am jaded in nothing other than towards you in your earnestness, directness or honesty. You do not even live up to your own standards.

FuzzyLumpkins
05-17-2012, 11:56 PM
Yep. With you the conversation more or less ends wherever you disagree. Face it: you're an intolerant jerk.

Yeah that's why when you took issue with me over my treatment of WC I tried to temper my reactions for a time. I still temper my response to CC and yoni.

You can try and label me however you like but unless you provide examples, it is pretty much meaningless. I do.

Its just whining from you at that point.

If you make a decent point i will concede it. In this discussion you haven't.

Winehole23
05-17-2012, 11:56 PM
And of course sidestep your hypocrisy towards trying to police other's methods. Commentary on an open forum. Exaggerate much?

FuzzyLumpkins
05-18-2012, 12:00 AM
Commentary on an open forum. Exaggerate much?

Its pretty obvious that you would love to moderate me if you could. but you cannot so you try your passive aggressive steering. Again I will give examples such as trying to label me as lacking charm or being pretentious. Your cataloging of my use of pejoratives.

Its not an exaggeration. Its is what it is. You did complain about me 'approving' and you have done nothing but disapprove me. that pretty much the definition of hypocrisy.

Winehole23
05-18-2012, 12:00 AM
You do not even live up to your own standards.Nobody does. Does that make me special?

Or did you hit the mark...

Winehole23
05-18-2012, 12:02 AM
Its pretty obvious that you would love to moderate me if you could. Sorry free speech is too oppressive for you. I'm just expressing my opinion about your bullshit.

FuzzyLumpkins
05-18-2012, 12:02 AM
Nobody does. Does that make me special?

Or did you hit the mark...

Nice copout. Coward.

FuzzyLumpkins
05-18-2012, 12:03 AM
Yep. With you the conversation more or less ends wherever you disagree. Face it: you're an intolerant jerk.

Example of not living up to one's own standards. You cannot even go 5 posts.

Winehole23
05-18-2012, 12:09 AM
Nice copout. Coward.how so? what would be the brave thing to do?

Winehole23
05-18-2012, 12:10 AM
Example of not living up to one's own standards. You cannot even go 5 posts.not sure what you mean here. is your English lacking?

FuzzyLumpkins
05-18-2012, 12:12 AM
how so? what would be the brave thing to do?

Stand by what you say perhaps? Do not be a hypocrite because its convenient?

FuzzyLumpkins
05-18-2012, 12:12 AM
not sure what you mean here. is your English lacking?

You have been being an intolerant jerk to me for months now up to and including this latest back and forth.

That help?

Winehole23
05-18-2012, 09:22 AM
Stand by what you say perhaps? Do not be a hypocrite because its convenient?if I don't hold with your gloss of my words that doesn't necessarily make me a coward or a hypocrite, it just means we disagree about what I meant, but whatever. Your approval means nothing to me.

Winehole23
05-18-2012, 09:24 AM
You have been being an intolerant jerk to me for months now up to and including this latest back and forth.
Yep. You do it to others all the time, but you cry like a baby when it happens to you.

Winehole23
05-18-2012, 11:58 AM
just like a bully

Winehole23
05-18-2012, 12:09 PM
the flipside:


For the MeK to be re-designated absent any terrorist activity or terrorism, the State Department has to demonstrate that the group has both the capability and the intent to engage in terrorist activity or terrorism and that it either threatens U.S. national security or the security of American citizens.


In the Department of State Country Reports on Terrorism (CRT) 2007 (http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/crt/2007/), 2008 (http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/crt/2008/), 2009 (http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/crt/2009/140900.htm) and 2010 (http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/crt/2010/170264.htm), a CRT 2006 (http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/crt/2006/82738.htm) accusation that the MeK has “capacity and will” to commit terrorist activities or engage in terrorism does not recur, and there are no terrorist activities or terrorist events cited during the legally relevant period of two years prior to the last re-designation decision of January 2009. In fact, no such actions are listed since 2001.


In view of the convergence of historical circumstances and the law in favor of delisting, consider the political origins of the MeK designation. The roots are in the Iran-Contra affair (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-safavi/reality-check-understandi_b_520592.html) of the mid-1980s: In exchange for release of American hostages held in Lebanon by one of Tehran’s proxies, Hezbollah, the State Department alleged without evidence that MeK members used terrorism and violence as “standard instruments of their politics.” Thus began the use of that designation primarily as a tool to achieve foreign-policy aims rather than antiterrorism goals.

Because law and facts converge for removing the designation of the MeK, those who oppose delisting fall back on political grounds buttressed by vague factual allegations for a continuation of the terrorist tag. There is an unfounded claim that the MeK is unpopular within Iran because of “numerous terrorist attacks against innocent Iranian civilians.” Then there is an invalid policy conclusion: “Removing the MeK from the Foreign Terrorist Organization [sic] list and misconstruing its lack of democratic bona fides and support inside Iran will have harmful consequences on the legitimate, indigenous Iranian opposition.” The allegation of MeK unpopularity is false. Support within the expatriate Iranian community suggests popularity in Iran; no other dissident organization can mobilize similar numbers of expat supporters. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/06/20/AR2009062001347.html)[/URL]remember the INC? where is it today?
[URL="http://www.commentarymagazine.com/2011/02/24/whats-behind-the-campaign-to-delist-the-mujahedin-al-khalq-organization/"]Some (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/06/20/AR2009062001347.html) who believe (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704810504576307102942382660.html?m od=ITP_pageone_2) delisting would limit (http://globalspin.blogs.time.com/2011/03/04/why-are-some-u-s-politicians-trying-to-remove-an-iranian-cult-from-the-terror-list/) Washington’s ability to reach out to the Iranian street are wrong (http://www.amazon.com/President-Obama-Iran-Engagement-Negotiation/dp/0979705118); the disproportionate number (http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2011/01/26/iran-deepening-crisis-rights) of protestors arrested and hanged (http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2011/01/26/iran-deepening-crisis-rights) because of association with the MeK (http://www.presstv.ir/detail/165310.html) indicates the organization’s significant presence (http://64.78.33.77/ea/transcript.pdf) on the Iranian street. Those who oppose (http://www.raceforiran.com/with-%E2%80%9Cengagement%E2%80%9D-failing-washington-voices-urge-obama-to-embrace-the-mek-and-remove-its-terrorist-designation) delisting the MeK and hold (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/06/opinion/06leverett.html) a dim view of the effectiveness of Iranian dissidents to bring about regime change weaken their opposition to removal of the tag on the MeK. An argument (http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/06/06/idUS173556+06-Jun-2011+PRN20110606) in support of delisting on foreign-policy grounds is that it would reinforce the democratic opposition in Iran.

In most of the arguments opposed to delisting the MEK, no statutory fact is presented. So opponents of removing the terrorist tag resort to irrelevant non-legal arguments to overshadow lack of evidence of its engagement in terrorist activities or terrorism. In effect, those in favor of maintaining the MeK listing want Secretary Clinton to disregard the facts and the law entirely. With a simple signature delisting the group, Secretary Clinton would not only bring her Department in line with law and facts; she also would help empower the Iranian people to change the regime and open a political option between failed engagement and ineffective sanctions, on one hand, and problematic military action on the other.http://nationalinterest.org/commentary/meks-war-washington-5889?page=2

Winehole23
05-18-2012, 12:12 PM
The MEK, dedicated to overthrowing Iran's Islamic regime and considered a terrorist group by Iran as well as the US, is despised by ordinary Iranians because it fought alongside Saddam's forces in the 1980-88 Iraq-Iran war.http://www.thenational.ae/news/world/middle-east/us-move-to-delist-mek-as-terror-group-worries-irans-opposition

Winehole23
05-18-2012, 12:29 PM
During Operation Iraqi Freedom, coalition forces classified the Mujahedin-e Khalq (MeK), an Iranian dissident group dedicated to the violent overthrow of the Iranian government, as an enemy force. The MeK had provided security services to Saddam Hussein from its camps in Iraq and had been listed as a foreign terrorist organization by the Secretary of State. After a cease-fire was signed, the U.S. Secretary of Defense designated this group's members as civilian “protected persons” rather than combatant prisoners of war under the Geneva Conventions. A RAND study examined the evolution of this controversial decision, which has left the United States open to charges of hypocrisy in the war on terrorism. An examination of MeK activities establishes its cultic practices and its deceptive recruitment and public relations strategies. A series of coalition decisions served to facilitate the MeK leadership's control over its members. The government of Iraq wants to expel the group, but no country other than Iran will accept it. Thus, the RAND study concludes that the best course of action would be to repatriate the majority of its members to Iran, which in 2003 granted amnesty to the MeK rank and file and appears to have upheld its commitment. The coalition's experience with the MeK also offers lessons for dealing with unusual militias in future military actions and for providing better training for field commanders and enlisted personnel.http://www.rand.org/pubs/monographs/MG871.html

Winehole23
05-18-2012, 12:47 PM
weird assignment: http://publiceditor.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/09/13/a-reporter-shields-his-identity-and-an-iranian-exile-groups-viewpoint-goes-missing/

Winehole23
05-18-2012, 12:49 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/14/opinion/sunday/an-iranian-cult-and-its-american-friends.html?pagewanted=all

FuzzyLumpkins
05-18-2012, 03:07 PM
Yep. You do it to others all the time, but you cry like a baby when it happens to you.

:lol my gloss
:lol bully
:lol cry
:lol hypocrites

Winehole23
05-19-2012, 03:59 AM
the forced hilarity is completely in character. also, completely unconvincing.

Winehole23
05-19-2012, 04:00 AM
there's more topical material recently posted if you want to comment on that

FuzzyLumpkins
05-19-2012, 04:13 AM
As if you would admit to being convinced at any point. You have been posturing this entire time. Why would I think you would change at any point?

You are cliche.

Its a violent, authoritarian, pseudo religious fringe group that conservative think tank types supported primarily because they are a political group that opposes an enemy state. Keep up with the pretentious outrage discussion which will amount to the same amount of nothing as before.

Oh and make sure to throw another tantrum about me being mean soon after i talk of my agnosticism in declarative terms.

Winehole23
05-19-2012, 02:30 PM
nice tantrum :tu

FuzzyLumpkins
05-19-2012, 02:50 PM
You should know by now that when I rant, I include lots of expletives. It was certainly derisive but hardly a tantrum.

Winehole23
05-20-2012, 08:57 AM
crying about not crying is doubly funny

Winehole23
05-20-2012, 09:29 AM
you constantly bitch about the low quality of posting and the grievous lack of depth and "thinking" here, but from the trend of your posts it's hard to resist the conclusion you actually prefer the petty flame war.

(not that there's anything wrong with that)

FuzzyLumpkins
05-20-2012, 01:46 PM
you constantly bitch about the low quality of posting and the grievous lack of depth and "thinking" here, but from the trend of your posts it's hard to resist the conclusion you actually prefer the petty flame war.

(not that there's anything wrong with that)

Um, no I don't. I call people out for saying stupid things or lying. Complaining about low quality threads or whatnot is a measure of futility.

I would prefer that people do something about it rather than just bitch certainly but that's hardly been a calling card.

Quit projecting yourself on me, wannabe moderator.

:lol charm
:lol pretentious
:lol flame wars
:lol jerk
:lol asshole
:lol bitching

Hypocritehole

Winehole23
05-21-2012, 03:29 AM
feeding the flames, as usual

FuzzyLumpkins
05-21-2012, 06:37 AM
Now all you need to do is play the martyr card. Introspection is a good thing.

Winehole23
05-21-2012, 09:49 AM
Now all you need to do is play the martyr card. Nah, I don't.

Introspection is a good thing.whatever you say, Marcus Aurelius

FuzzyLumpkins
05-21-2012, 04:16 PM
I am not into stoicism especially when it smacks of false humility and hypocrisy. Rousseau otoh...

Winehole23
05-21-2012, 05:02 PM
Compared to the suite of ancient wisdom LazyLumpkins sorts into wheat and chaff with bitch slaps, what are we?

(went camping)

FuzzyLumpkins
05-21-2012, 05:43 PM
Compared to the suite of ancient wisdom LazyLumpkins sorts into wheat and chaff with bitch slaps, what are we?

(went camping)

We are all independent entities capable of thought. This is not zero sum and sorry if my self-confidence makes you feel insecure. It was irony anyway, Dr. Nuance. You apparently missed it.

Winehole23
05-21-2012, 05:51 PM
bitchslapping has nuances? you'd about have to be a connoisseur to know it, bro.

Winehole23
05-21-2012, 05:53 PM
anyway, I hope you have a nice afternoon.

See ya!

FuzzyLumpkins
05-21-2012, 06:43 PM
bitchslapping has nuances? you'd about have to be a connoisseur to know it, bro.

Criticism mired in hypocrisy lose their vigor.


You mostly deride what you have first caricatured, like every other blockhead around here.

Thanks Dr. Blockhead.

Winehole23
07-09-2012, 09:36 AM
“I see them as a cross between Hezbollah and the Branch Davidians,” [bold mine-DL] said Karim Sadjadpour, an Iran expert with the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. “It is legitimate to debate whether the MEK meets the Justice Department’s legal definition of a terrorist organization. But it is outright false to claim that they are a legitimate, democracy-minded opposition group with a wide base inside Iran.”http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/the-greed-cluelessness-and-poor-judgment-of-the-meks-american-advocates/

Winehole23
09-24-2012, 11:52 AM
will be delisted

Larison's reax:


Paul Pillar’s response (http://nationalinterest.org/blog/paul-pillar/more-posturing-iran-7508) to the de-listing of the MEK is exactly right:

No good will come out of this subversion of the terrorist group list with regard to conditions in Iran, the behavior or standing of the Iranian regime, the values with which the United States is associated, or anything else. The regime in Tehran will tacitly welcome this move (while publicly denouncing it) because it helps to discredit the political opposition in Iran—a fact not lost on members of the Green Movement, who want nothing to do with the MEK. The MEK certainly is not a credible vehicle for regime change in Iran because it has almost no public support there. Meanwhile, the Iranian regime will read the move as another indication that the United States intends only to use subversion and violence against it rather than reaching any deals with it.
What may make this decision even more damaging over the long term for U.S.-Iranian relations is that most Iranians loathe the MEK. De-listing the group is a mistake in its own right, but it is especially foolish because it does nothing but generate ill will from Iranians regardless of their views of the regime. Iranians will understandably consider the decision to remove the terrorist designation from the group as an insult, and many will take it as further proof of enduring American hostility towards Iran and Iranians and not just towards the current government.



It’s important to note that the decision by itself does not mean that the U.S. is supporting the MEK or aligning our government with the group, but it will likely be perceived that way. We shouldn’t discount the possibility that the decision to remove them from the FTO list will be exploited by the same pro-MEK advocates in the U.S. that lobbied for them until now. If they are removed from the FTO list now, it will probably be just a matter of time before Iran hawks begin agitating for funding, training, and eventually arming them to use against the Iranian government.


One of the standard, completely false talking points these advocates repeated was that the MEK was a democratic movement and the “main” Iranian opposition group. Many ex-officials, retired officers, and has-been politicians disgraced themselves with their fawning expressions of admiration for Maryam Rajavi. Leaving aside the de-listing decision for a moment, the conduct of these Americans and the absurd claims they made on behalf of a horrible political cult reflect just how corrupting and deluding anti-Iranian hawkishness can be. It shouldn’t be forgotten that these people went far beyond advocating on behalf of people at Camp Ashraf or arguing for de-listing. They were actively shilling for a monstrous, fanatical movement as if it were the legitimate representative of the Iranian people. That is something that shouldn’t be forgotten, nor should it be forgotten that several of the people speaking in support of this group serve in some capacity as advisers to the Republican presidential nominee.
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/the-mistaken-decision-to-de-list-the-mek/

LnGrrrR
09-24-2012, 12:47 PM
Fuck this whole situation. It stinks, and it's nice that someone is at least covering it. I doubt this will see any play from CNN, but one can hope.