Grades: Spurs vs. Pacers - Mar. 31

[timvp]

After two days of much-needed rest, the Spurs hosted the Pacers on Saturday night. Leading the entire way, the Spurs posted a 112-103 victory -- the team's seventh straight win and 10th in their last 11 outings.

San Antonio led by as many as 22 points in the second quarter, however Indiana kept fighting until the bitter end. The Pacers actually were within single-digits for a lot of the second half but were unable to truly get all the way back into the game.

Overall, the Spurs have to be thrilled with their offense. In their last 13 games, they're averaging 108.5 points per game. To put that in perspective, the Thunder currently lead the NBA in scoring at 103.7 points per game.

That said, on the other side of the court, the defense -- are lack thereof -- has to be worrisome. The Spurs are allowing 105 points per game in their last three contests. Tonight, the Pacers started 3-for-9 from the field but then were successful on 39 of their final 70 field goal attempts, or 55.7%. That obviously is not going to get it done come playoff time.

The winning is great but down the stretch run of the season, I'm hoping for something resembling above average defense.

http://oi42.tinypic.com/15n3o2g.jpg

http://oi39.tinypic.com/2rh60sg.jpg

Tim Duncan B-
Early on, I thought Tim Duncan played really well on both ends. He was being physical and making smart decision. However, after the Spurs built their lead, it appeared as if Duncan lost some of his intensity. In the second half, he was mostly just going through the motions ... that is until he dialed it back up near the end of the game. To finish off the Pacers in the fourth, Duncan again come up with momentous plays on offense and defense. All in all, it was a raggedy outing from Duncan; really good sometimes, nearly invisible other stretches. Offensively, when he made decisive moves or shot without hesitation, he was successful most of the time. On defense, he did great work keeping Roy Hibbert from gaining good position (and also kept him off the offensive boards) but Duncan's help defense was substandard.

Manu Ginobili B+
Manu Ginobili's first half was stunningly efficient. In 14 minutes, he had 14 points and three assists on 5-for-6 shooting from the floor. His machinelike play was a leading reason why the Spurs broke the game wide open. In the second half, Ginobili's offense wasn't nearly as spectacular -- but it wasn't bad. He kept creating and showed good aggression throughout. Defensively, I thought he actually played better in the second half. His energy on D in the final two quarters was very high in spurts ... perhaps as high as I've seen it this season.

Tony Parker B+
Defensively, Tony Parker was the most consistent player for the Spurs. He did great work staying in front of his man, chasing his man around screens and rarely allowed open driving lanes. On offense, Parker again looked a step slow. I'm not sure if his hamstring was bothering him but he wasn't going at 100%. Despite his lack of burst, he was still effective running the club. Parker picked his spots well when looking to score and made good decisions out of pick-and-roll sets. Perhaps most impressive of all was his single turnover despite going 35 minutes against a Pacers defense that is active, long and not averse to physical play.

Kawhi Leonard C
Obviously, I've been spoiled by Kawhi Leonard's strong play in recent weeks but he just didn't have the type of impact that has become expected out of him. Defensively, he had some really good moments against Danny Granger … but he also had some very forgettable moments. The best news regarding his D was his intensity, which I thought was much higher than usual. Offensively and rebounding-wise, Leonard was just really quiet. On offense, perhaps the most notable aspect of his game was the impressive vision he illustrated. Leonard hasn't been known for his court vision but he displayed some good awareness tonight, especially off the dribble. All told, it was far from a bad night from the rookie but it was certainly below the expectations he has set as of late.

DeJuan Blair B
DeJuan Blair played as under control as we've seen him on the offensive end in a long time. His shot selection was good, he was making the right passes and his screens were better than usual. Blair also was extremely active on the offensive boards. Defensively, he gave good effort. Blair usually remained ineffective on D but you could see the wheels spinning in his head as he attempted to get in the right spots. Overall, he still wasn't much of an asset but he was rewarded with rare fourth quarter minutes so Pop must have liked what he saw.

Danny Green C+
To begin the contest, Danny Green brought a good amount of liveliness -- particularly on the defensive end. Unfortunately, Green's defense got progressively worse; his second stint was so-so and he was poor in the beginning of the third quarter. After his man (Paul George) scored a few times, Pop pulled Green and never put him back in. Offensively, Green was a tad too aggressive with his shot selection. With as deep as this team is with scoring talent, he honestly shouldn't shoot anything that isn't a wide open three-pointer or doesn't involve a clear path to the hoop. A good sign for Green is that Pop is spending more time coaching him within games than any other player. If Green makes a mistake on the defensive end, Pop is quick to pull him out of the game and explain what he did wrong. That tells me that Pop considers Green a vital piece to the puzzle going forward.

Stephen Jackson B-
Shooting-wise, Stephen Jackson just didn't have it tonight; the three-pointer he made was an accidental banker. Despite his shooting woes, the rest of his outing was strong. He attacked the rim really well and created a few baskets with heady passes. Defensively, Jackson was physical and annoyed the Pacers with his peskiness. He had a handful of mistakes (many of which are correctable with time) on both ends that limited his overall impact but he continues to look like a very good fit.

Matt Bonner B
There's not much to complain about tonight regarding Matt Bonner's play. On defense, while he did give up a few open jumpers, Bonner had a few really good plays on the post and even a couple in transition. His rebounding on the defensive end was also a plus. Offensively, while he missed his treys, he took high-quality shots and didn't hesitate when it came to either shooting or passing. Bonner's moves off the dribble were also working for him tonight.

Gary Neal A-
Following a few rough outings, Gary Neal bounced back with a very steady performance. His shot selection was great (especially for him) and he looked as comfortable handling the ball against pressure as I've seen all season. When driving to the basket, he kept his eyes open and delivered a couple fine passes. On defense, as long as he was matched up with someone his size, Neal did relatively good work. He looks a half-step slower since his foot injury but this was definitely a step in the right direction for Neal.

Tiago Splitter B+
Although he played only 16 minutes, Tiago Splitter was very productive. Offensively, the Pacers couldn't stop his rolls to the basket; he found a way to get open following virtually every pick-and-roll. With an ounce more of patience after catching the ball in the paint, Splitter could have easily had an even gaudier stat line. Defensively, he was mostly a positive. He had a couple breakdowns but otherwise protected the rim well and didn't back down from Indiana's physicality. Splitter was also really good on the boards on both ends.

Pop C
I'm still scratching my head after Pop used Blair in his finishing lineup. While I can live with Blair starting, there's absolutely no way Pop should have him on the court at the end of games. First of all, he doesn't have the experience. Secondly, and most important, Blair just doesn't play with the precision that is necessary to win close games. And that's as gently as I can put it. Hopefully this was just a one time reward for Blair, but the combination of Boris Diaw getting a DNP-CD and Blair being shoehorned into the Robert Horry role left me pondering Pop's sanity. Other than curious Blair decision, I actually thought Pop coached well. I would have liked for Pop to play Parker a few less minutes since he didn't look totally healthy … but that's about the extent of my additional criticism.

[will_spurs]

Thanks for the notes as I couldn't watch this game.

There's something to be said in favor of competition,and emulation. Competition, as it seems to have lit a fire (however small) under some players' asses, especially Blair, who is suddenly trying to figure things out on D. Amazing what Diaw coming off the bench and playing better D than Blair ever did can achieve

Emulation in the sense that several players were coasting: one of them is gone, but Blair (again) remained, and overall I think it's nice to have several players play with heart, not only the big 3. That's an invaluable intangible right there.

[TheSkeptic]

Thanks Timvp.

Quick question:

Before I start getting even more nervous about the playoffs, do you think Pop is planning to go with the rotations we've been seeing as of late when all the bigs were in the line-up?

[therealtruth]

What does Splitter need to do to get more playing time?

[Spurtacus]

What does Splitter need to do to get more playing time?

Spread the floor.

[TheSkeptic]

What does Splitter need to do to get more playing time?

At the moment I'm thinking he needs to dye his hair red, practice his shooting, and steal Bonner's uniform at half-time.

[chazley]

What does Splitter need to do to get more playing time?

1. Become better than Tim Duncan

2. Not suck next to Tim Duncan.

The reason he's as good as he is is because he is the best big man on the floor when he plays, and he mostly plays with a floor spacing big man in Bonner who allows him to control the paint on offense. It sucks that Pop hasn't been willing to play them together more often, but I suspect we'll see it in the upcoming series against the Lakers.

[TMT®]

A couple notes:

1. Stephen Jackson didn't look good tonight from what I saw. I really hope he can get hot again and solidify himself as the starting 2 guard by the playoffs. S-Jax starting and Green off the bench is obviously better for rotations in my opinion. Bringing Jack along with Manu off the bench just seems puzzling to me.
2. Boris Diaw DNP kind of irritates me. I know Pop is hesitant to adjust new players into the rotation right away, but the reason we signed this guy was to bring the things Bonner doesn't: solid interior presence and rebounding. I hope All 5 bigs can be in the rotation by the playoffs, but with Bonner playing select spotter minutes. Pop definitely needs to put a limit on the Red Rocket's PT.
3. Splitter only getting 16 minutes tonight? Why is Pop so hesitant to play him more time? Or next to Duncan? Or instead of Blair at the end of games?

Great write up, timvp. :toast

[jjktkk]

Thanks, as always, for the writeup Tim. :tu

[freetiago]

I dont think parker is feeling anything from his hamstring tbh
he just plays passive when hes with ginobili
maybe its the result of not having to create and not being the go to guy like we saw in the kings game where manu was running the pick to close games
i noticed most of parkers points came when ginobili was on the bench
idk if hell play at the mvp level he was playing at earlier in the season again

[objective]

If Splitter and Diaw aren't getting more minutes in the playoffs than Blair and Bonner, then it will be what brings down the first legit contending Spurs team in years.

Pop has it in him to make a huge blunder to submarine the Spurs every postseason, I just hope he doesn't do it this year with Diaw and Splitter like he did with Splitter last year and Hill in his rookie year.

[TE]

You must really hate Danny Green. Damn.

[angelbelow]

Thanks for the grades.

Defensive problems were more obvious in the 2nd half but bad overall. Bonner's post defense was pretty good and that's normal (according to synergy.) In almost every category I thought he was average. Blair was late and multiple close outs. I can't help but be curious about how much our defense would improve if we played Splitter and Diaw more and Bonner/Blair less.

Still don't like Danny Green as a starter. He's too inconsistent and relies too much on streaky play to be a starter. He serves best as a bench player and an energizer who can come in a wreck havoc on the opponents bench and or unsuspecting starters.

2010 was such a weak draft with so few players panning out thus far. Spurs 20th pick was the highest pick since the 1997 draft (Tim Duncan) and we ended up with a player whose cheap option was declined. Tonight we got a good look at one of the few players from the 2010 draft class whose been good all year. Paul George is one of two players who boost an above average w/s 48. The other is Greg Monroe but the Pistons are actually terrible. The pacers on the other hand, are 2nd to the Chicago Bulls in the Central division and are 9 games above .500 with George as one of their consistent role players.

There was a brief period where George was a projected 20th pick going to the Spurs, would have been interesting if that actually happened.

Also, love having Jackson back. On a free throw possession (forgot who was at the ling but it was a Spurs, maybe Duncan), Bonner subs in and Jackson asks to trade places with him so he can try and box out Hibbert. As the shot went up, Jackson rams him and brute forces Hibbert out of bounces and you can hear the "ahhhh" in the background out of Hibbert's mouth. Afterwards Jackson just calmly raises both his hands upwards like hes trying to back off. I'm not sure why he did it.. but I dont remember him being too concerned about the rebound though.

[timvp]

I woke up in a panic after I realized I forgot Danny Green. I really might have to think about getting a second hobby :lol

[Paranoid Pop]

Tbh the pressure is on Pop right now, he has a great roster, two players that were on a team that had the best defense in the league in SJax and Diaw, a great defensive minded 3 in Leonard, two real bigs in Tim and Tiago. Yet his playoffs rotation we've seen tonight (I assume but it's not really a reach given the rest before and after) is bad defensively, we won with the 3ball tonight.

The one thing that I really liked was that Leonard's passing looked good. He has the best passing SG and PF to learn from tbh. He found Green early and him and Parker did great passing to each other on the fastbreaks.

[dunkman]

What does Splitter need to do to get more playing time?

Get Duncan's minutes. Perhaps Pop plans to play Duncan and Splitter in the playoffs, why would Pop show all plays in regular season? Or he thinks that line-up isn't great for some reason. Or he perceives that Splitter can't log much minutes without the risk of getting injured, and wants to be sure that at least either Duncan or Splitter are on the floor. Blair and Bonner block a shot every 5 games, and Diaw didn't play tonight.

[Darkwaters]

timvp,

Any comments on George Hill's play?

[justinandimcool]

I think it's fairly obvious that Georgie hasn't improved a lick...love the guy but the shot selection was the same, skillset/instincts the same, defense was so-so. To be fair Kawhi had an unspectacular game as well, but I'm still very happy things worked out the way they did. GH3 has hit his ceiling, which is pretty much only a small step better than his rookie year. Unless he plans on REALLY polishing up his jumpshot and becoming a real marksman, or develops some finishing around the rim abilities, he will always be average. He can still have a long career off the bench but that's it.

[siraulo23]

thanks for the grades timvp

good win, but seeing blair finish the game was weird, he hasnt finished many games especially this season

also i was interested to hear from pop on his decision not playing diaw. Why didnt anybody from spurs media ask the reason of Diaw DNP

[justinandimcool]

^ considering there's been one DNP every game the past week, it's probably just rest. if not, then experimentation (which could be good or bad)

[roycrikside]

A couple notes:

2. Boris Diaw DNP kind of irritates me. I know Pop is hesitant to adjust new players into the rotation right away, but the reason we signed this guy was to bring the things Bonner doesn't: solid interior presence and rebounding. I hope All 5 bigs can be in the rotation by the playoffs, but with Bonner playing select spotter minutes. Pop definitely needs to put a limit on the Red Rocket's PT.


If you're looking for Diaw to give you better interior presence and rebounding than Bonner, you're gonna be sorely disappointed. Those are not his strengths. Look at his rebound rate and it's worse than Bonner's.

Diaw might be able to guard better out on the floor against a guy like Dirk and he's longer and has a stronger base, but his biggest strengths over Bonner are his passing, his screens on and off the ball and hopefully his clutch play.

[roycrikside]

thanks for the grades timvp

good win, but seeing blair finish the game was weird, he hasnt finished many games especially this season

also i was interested to hear from pop on his decision not playing diaw. Why didnt anybody from spurs media ask the reason of Diaw DNP

Because everyone in the SA media is a spineless pussy who is afraid and intimidated of Pop. He basically told them he doesn't want to answer any questions because he wants to watch the end of the college basketball game and they all said "sure thing Pop, whatever you say."

[Splits]

Thanks for the grades, Timvp. These are invaluable.

The only one I take umbrage with (besides Green's mysteriously missing grade) is Pop. He is obviously in experimental mode, especially since he finally has his playoff roster fully rested for the first time. I don't think there's a chance in hell we see Blair in the 4th of any non-blowout playoff game, but Pop is just trying to see how the pieces fit together.

Diaw sitting is no surprise. He came in, got thrown to the lions playing 6 games in 8 days without practice, and was probably told to expect this, with Pop going "old school" using BonBlair as his bigs. Pop is just dipping his toe in the early spring water, figuring out what's hot and what's not.

[Dingle Barry]

Because everyone in the SA media is a spineless pussy who is afraid and intimidated of Pop. He basically told them he doesn't want to answer any questions because he wants to watch the end of the college basketball game and they all said "sure thing Pop, whatever you say."Imagine the Express News sports page if they get black balled by the Spurs.

[Rapper]

Thanks for the grades

But how come every game I think Timmy should be deserved A+

[Splits]

How about this stat: the Spurs have not trailed in a game for over 96 minutes (won the last 2 wire-to-wire plus the minutes of their win over PHO)

[TDMVPDPOY]

oi timvp

ppl are complaining about certain players not getting minutes, maybe its due to depth of the roster and mismatches will only see certain players selected....but i think a reason why pop isnt giving diaw and mills alot of minutes is it due to keeping them injury free for the olympics...

[Fireball]

How about this stat: the Spurs have not trailed in a game for over 96 minutes (won the last 2 wire-to-wire plus the minutes of their win over PHO)

thats mainly because of their superb offense and the reason the defense became something of a letdown again the last two games ...

[will_spurs]

If you're looking for Diaw to give you better interior presence and rebounding than Bonner, you're gonna be sorely disappointed. Those are not his strengths. Look at his rebound rate and it's worse than Bonner's.

The thing is, there's rebounding rate and rebounding rate. Bonner gets a lot of his rebounds just for being 7ft tall and in the paint (on D). I think of him the same way as Parker: do you remember Parker boxing out for rebound? No, because he is already at the elbow extended or further away from the basket, waiting for a pass to go on a fast break. Yet he still manages to get 3 rebounds or so a game just because the ball comes his way, from time to time.

On the other hand I have already seen Diaw box out and go for a rebound in his few games as a Spurs. That's quite a bit different from standing listless and waiting for the ball to find your hands.

[angelbelow]

If you're looking for Diaw to give you better interior presence and rebounding than Bonner, you're gonna be sorely disappointed. Those are not his strengths. Look at his rebound rate and it's worse than Bonner's.

False. Diaw's rebounding is statistically better than Bonner's this seasons.

2011 - 2012:

Per 36:
Diaw - 7.3 RPG w/Spurs and 6.9 RPG w/Bobcats
Bonner - 5.8 RPG

Advanced:
Diaw - TRB% = 11.6 w/Spurs and 10.9 w/ Bobcats
Bonner - TRB% = 9.3

Season average:
Diaw - 3.6 RPG w/ Spurs (17.8MPG) and 5.3 w/ Bobcats (27.5MPG)
Bonner - 3.4 RPG (21 MPG)

The difference isn't tremendous but Diaw is the better rebounder. Additionally, Bonner's rebounding has seen a downward trend over the course of his career, this season is no different.

For me, I have low expectations for Bonner's rebounding so anytime he grabs a rebound I find myself cheering. Therefore, the thought of Diaw's rebounding abilities leaving me "sorely disappointed" was hard to believe. While neither player is impressive when it comes to rebounding, I have a lot more faith in Boris when it comes to being an interior presence.

[100%duncan]

Thanks for the notes,LJ. Couldn't really judge it because I only watched the 4th quarter.

[benefactor]

:lol roy
:lol accusing people of shit basketball takes
:lol pot meeting kettle

Who really gives a damn about comparing Bonner vs. Diaw on post defense/rebounding? That's about as relevant as making threads saying that say a good Manu = Championship.

Some things are obvious. There is really no reason to look at Bonner and make any sort of argument that he is a better option than Diaw. Diaw is actually a real basketball player and Bonner is just a specialist that tries hard and flames out when the lights turn on.

[Kuestmaster]

Tim Duncan B-
Early on, I thought Tim Duncan played really well on both ends. He was being physical and making smart decision. However, after the Spurs built their lead, it appeared as if Duncan lost some of his intensity. In the second half, he was mostly just going through the motions ... that is until he dialed it back up near the end of the game. To finish off the Pacers in the fourth, Duncan again come up with momentous plays on offense and defense. All in all, it was a raggedy outing from Duncan; really good sometimes, nearly invisible other stretches. Offensively, when he made decisive moves or shot without hesitation, he was successful most of the time. On defense, he did great work keeping Roy Hibbert from gaining good position (and also kept him off the offensive boards) but Duncan's help defense was substandard.




You're a little bit too hard on Timmy. His defense can't be as good as it was every night a few years ago. But he is averaging 19 points and 11 rebounds over the last 10 games. That sounds amazing to me if we count that the big man will be 36 in a few days. If he can keep this level in the playoffs we'll be damn scary

[Spurs Brazil]

Duncan was 9 for 9 from the foul line and has hit 21 of his last 22 from the line, improving to 70.2 percent for the season. Before his recent surge, Duncan was hitting 67.2 percent from the line.

http://blog.mysanantonio.com/spursnation/2012/04/01/game-rewind-td-takes-blame-or-credit-for-those-ugly-socks/

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Nice write up. I thought Leonard would thrive against indys long wing men, but you're right I guess we are getting spoiled with his recent play

[jag]

Whose dick does Tiago have to suck to get some more minutes in this bitch?

[I Heart Ginobili]

The reason Tiago doesn't get more playing time is because Pop won't play him and Tim together. If you look at the minutes, Duncan played 32 and Splitter 16 which adds up to 48. Tiago comes in whenever Tim isn't on the floor.

Personally, I kind of like the strategy being implemented with the two main lineups. The two lineups being the starting lineup and the Neal, Ginobili, Jax, Bonner and Splitter lineup. The second unit is pretty strong with three guys that would start on a lot of teams. They bring a lot offensive firepower that's needed when the first unit isn't producing as well.

[EVAY]

I dont think parker is feeling anything from his hamstring tbh
he just plays passive when hes with ginobili
maybe its the result of not having to create and not being the go to guy like we saw in the kings game where manu was running the pick to close games
i noticed most of parkers points came when ginobili was on the bench
idk if hell play at the mvp level he was playing at earlier in the season again


I agree that he has been less aggressive in the last couple of games, but I think that is totally a function of the team having good leads wire-to-wire, and having some of our big shooters back in the game (Manu, and the addition of Jackson).
He no longer HAS to take over games, and so he isn't. He is letting others get their playing time in and their rhythm back.

I think that just says he's doing what the team needs....when they need him to score, he will. But when he and Manu are on the floor together, it is Manu's job to be the 'playmaker', and he does that job better than anyone on the team.

It seems to me that one of the reasons almost no spur except Duncan could ever be a league mvp is that Popovich insists that minutes be limited, and the team-first mentality ensures that no single player gets his stats too far ahead of anybody else's.

In order for Tony to play at the level he was when Manu was out and we didn't have Jackson, he would have to dominate in minutes and control of the game. That would not set us up well for the playoffs. Teams will come at Tony for sure in the playoffs to try to get the ball out of his hands and disrupt the offensive flow. Other team members have to be ready, and that is what they are preparing for right now, imo.

[EVAY]

The reason Tiago doesn't get more playing time is because Pop won't play him and Tim together. If you look at the minutes, Duncan played 32 and Splitter 16 which adds up to 48. Tiago comes in whenever Tim isn't on the floor.

Personally, I kind of like the strategy being implemented with the two main lineups. The two lineups being the starting lineup and the Neal, Ginobili, Jax, Bonner and Splitter lineup. The second unit is pretty strong with three guys that would start on a lot of teams. They bring a lot offensive firepower that's needed when the first unit isn't producing as well.

Agreed. That second unit as you have outlined it was great last night and I would assume that will be the unit for the playoffs.

[I Heart Ginobili]

damn einstein

How about that for advanced statistics?

I just don't get why people keep complaining about Tiago not playing more when the reason is obvious. He's not going to play next to Duncan and people need to get over it.

[thispego]

What does Splitter need to do to get more playing time?

Be less injury prone

[ginobilized]

Great write up as always.
It's a strange luxury to have this many lineup possibilities.

I wonder if A)CIA Pop is not revealing the playoff lineups in games to stop other teams from preparing B)Pop is just trying to keep players fresh and healthy or C) He has no clue of what rotation he'll favor. Maybe D)All of the above.
I guess we'll see in a month.

[spectator]

thanks for the grades - i only saw the second half last night. couple of thoughts:

1. tiago should not get more PT - everyone on this forum (including me) was bitching and moaning about pop not giving him more PT; then, pop made all of us look ridiculous when tiago had 2 different injuries while playing limited minutes. idk if the guy is injury prone or just unlucky, but my perception is that 16 minutes of all-out effort, combined with 32 from timmy, makes us very good at the C position.

2. it's a mystery to every spurs fan - why blair's rebounding took a sharp fall this year. i feel very uncomfortable with him finishing the game at PF. i like bonner's defense much better. also, i like diaw's defense better than bonner's. moreover, if the lineups allow it, i would like to see the spurs close games with tony-manu-kawhi-sj-td.

3. down the stretch, i would like the spurs to keep the 2nd seed in the west and not try to have a better record than chi, mia, okc. ideally (for me), the spurs win the next 4 games, then play their starters every 3rd day - including the home games vs the fakes. i know that the team is deep, but the run down the stretch is ridiculous: 13 games in 19 nights IIRC. i value health more than the location of the 7th game in a series.

[mingus]

Why is it that our two best bigs besides Duncan play behind our two worst bigs? Pop is nuts if this remains the case for much longer. Ugh.

[therealtruth]

thanks for the grades - i only saw the second half last night. couple of thoughts:

1. tiago should not get more PT - everyone on this forum (including me) was bitching and moaning about pop not giving him more PT; then, pop made all of us look ridiculous when tiago had 2 different injuries while playing limited minutes. idk if the guy is injury prone or just unlucky, but my perception is that 16 minutes of all-out effort, combined with 32 from timmy, makes us very good at the C position.


That's ridiculous because he got a few injuries he shouldn't play more? Not too many big men play all 82 games.

[T Park]

If Splitter and Diaw aren't getting more minutes in the playoffs than Blair and Bonner, then it will be what brings down the first legit contending Spurs team in years.

Pop has it in him to make a huge blunder to submarine the Spurs every postseason, I just hope he doesn't do it this year with Diaw and Splitter like he did with Splitter last year and Hill in his rookie year.

Hill was not going to win that dallas series, please.....

[T Park]

Be less injury prone

Please, injury prone? It's not like he tweaked his back and missed 4 or so games.....

[T Park]

The thing is, there's rebounding rate and rebounding rate. Bonner gets a lot of his rebounds just for being 7ft tall and in the paint (on D). I think of him the same way as Parker: do you remember Parker boxing out for rebound? No, because he is already at the elbow extended or further away from the basket, waiting for a pass to go on a fast break. Yet he still manages to get 3 rebounds or so a game just because the ball comes his way, from time to time.

On the other hand I have already seen Diaw box out and go for a rebound in his few games as a Spurs. That's quite a bit different from standing listless and waiting for the ball to find your hands.

When did bonner become 7 feet?

[DPG21920]

Please, injury prone? It's not like he tweaked his back and missed 4 or so games.....

:rollin

How many games has Manu missed and how many minute did he play?

Please stop talking.

[TheSkeptic]

Hill was not going to win that dallas series, please.....

For goodness sake. Nobody was saying that Hill was going to single-handedly win the series.

In fact, it's not about guaranteed championships so much as it is giving the team a better shot at not losing. Once Hill started seeing minutes against Dallas it was obvious that Pop had made a mistake with the "these playoffs are not for George Hill" announcement. It happens and that's fine. What's concerning is that it looks like he's making the same ones every year even though the specific names might differ.

If you can't appreciate the value of giving good players a chance to fail before taking them out of the playoffs entirely, then...I guess you're consistent in any case.


Please, injury prone? It's not like he tweaked his back and missed 4 or so games.....

Speaking of which, while I'll concede that Tiago's not as durable as say Tim, Bonner, or Blair, he doesn't deserve to have his minutes cut over it. That's just being petty imo since there aren't many bigs that play his style and still manage to play every game. It's not like he's reached Bogut levels of injury.

I'll also bet that if you give him a guaranteed 25+, he'll settle down and not tax himself. There are a lot of times this year when I've watched games and felt like he was pressing because he wanted to stay on the floor. I've said it before and I'll say it again: Tiago's like Bargnani.

[jag]

How about that for advanced statistics?

I just don't get why people keep complaining about Tiago not playing more when the reason is obvious. He's not going to play next to Duncan and people need to get over it.

I fully understand the reasons. Doesn't mean I'm going to get over it.

I'm definitely happy with these wins and Pop is doing an incredible job this season. But I worry more about postseason matchups. If the Spurs run into the Lakers or Grizzlies, then Tim and Tiago are going to need minutes together. I hope you understand that.

[ElNono]

I called Tiago was going to lose minutes after the trade... we'll see going forward, but this is getting classic Pop... I think we're starting to see what playoff rotations will look like, and barring injury, Diaw will be a bench warmer...

[Mugen]

lol i can't even think of how PopFan would :downspin:Blair/Bonner getting more mins. than Tiago/Diaw in the playoffs.

[timvp]

Add in Danny Green's grade.


Before I start getting even more nervous about the playoffs, do you think Pop is planning to go with the rotations we've been seeing as of late when all the bigs were in the line-up?This was the first game Pop has had all five bigs at his disposal (last game Splitter was back but Bonner was resting). One game in, I wasn't too please with what I saw. Blair is the last of the five bigs I want to see close games. And seeing no sign of Duncan and Splitter playing together against a long, physical team is depressing, tbh.

One thing to consider is that the coaching staff may have been resting Diaw. It's unlikely due to the two days off before this game but perhaps they wanted to give him a break considering he went from nothing to playing five games in six nights.

We'll have to wait and see how Pop rotates his bigs going forward.


timvp,

Any comments on George Hill's play?He looked pretty solid. He came out of the gates a little jittery but settled in and played well. That's actually the best I've seen Hill run their team (his six assists tied his season-high). He defended Parker at a decent level. I was impressed on that three-pointer he hit off the dribble ... we didn't see him hit many three-pointers off the dribble in his time with the Spurs.

It'll be interesting to see what kind of contract he lands in free agency. Personally, I don't think he's capable of being a starting point guard in the NBA (his court vision is just too limited) but he just needs one team to believe in him to get paid . . .

[therealtruth]

I'll also bet that if you give him a guaranteed 25+, he'll settle down and not tax himself. There are a lot of times this year when I've watched games and felt like he was pressing because he wanted to stay on the floor. I've said it before and I'll say it again: Tiago's like Bargnani.

I definitely feel he would relax more and play more if he got guaranteed minutes. Alot of NBA players do. Especially in this case where he's losing minutes to Bonner/Blair. He would likely play more under control and draw more attention on offense.

[TheSkeptic]

I called Tiago was going to lose minutes after the trade... we'll see going forward, but this is getting classic Pop... I think we're starting to see what playoff rotations will look like, and barring injury, Diaw will be a bench warmer...

See now if that happens I'd have to start suggesting that the team consider bringing in some fresh blood. Bonner and Blair are not going to cut it.

I don't care how much Bonner tries and I hate the idea of leaning on a guy who checked out mentally last time because he was sent to the bench. Duncan, Manu, and the fans all deserve better.

I read on another board that Thibs wasn't happy with his contract situation. He's a FA over the summer as well. Defense-first, giving minutes to productive players, impressive resume, etc.

I'd break the bank to give someone like that a shot. The coach doesn't have to win games but undermining your own team like that is inexcusable.

[DieHardSpursFan1537]

Thanks for the list! Didn't have a chance to catch the game last night.

[timvp]

You're a little bit too hard on Timmy. His defense can't be as good as it was every night a few years ago. But he is averaging 19 points and 11 rebounds over the last 10 games. That sounds amazing to me if we count that the big man will be 36 in a few days. If he can keep this level in the playoffs we'll be damn scaryYeah, in the big pictures, the Spurs have to be thrilled with what they're getting from Duncan. It's possible to nitpick from game to game but overall he's been better than expected ... and a huge improvement since the start of the season.



I called Tiago was going to lose minutes after the trade... we'll see going forward, but this is getting classic Pop... I think we're starting to see what playoff rotations will look like, and barring injury, Diaw will be a bench warmer...Splitter hasn't lost any minutes. All season, he's only played minutes behind Duncan except for very rare occurrences. He still got those minutes last night.

Now if Pop starts playing someone else behind Duncan and keeps Splitter on the bench, the ST meltdown won't be pretty . . .

[ElNono]

Bonner and Blair are not going to cut it.

It's not just those two... Having Jack gives Pop more options for small ball... which I suspect he still largely prefers to pairing Tim/Tiago.

[ElNono]

Splitter hasn't lost any minutes. All season, he's only played minutes behind Duncan except for very rare occurrences. He still got those minutes last night.

Now if Pop starts playing someone else behind Duncan and keeps Splitter on the bench, the ST meltdown won't be pretty . . .

You're missing my point, which I made during the Diaw thread... Tim's minutes are only going up, which means Tiago minutes are going down.

Now, before we had Diaw and Jack, Pop basically had 3 options: certain smallball lineups, Bonner or Blair. It sucked, but the flipside was that due to the limited options, there was a chance for Tiago to take some of those minutes if either one of those two were sucking, or smallball wasn't cutting it. After the trade, that possibility seems pretty much gone.

As far as my suspicion of Diaw ending up warming the bench, it has everything to do Pop being a strict believer in pecking order. Bonner and Blair will have priority for minutes because they've been here longer. "Wouldn't be fair to the team" otherwise.

[TheSkeptic]

Add in Danny Green's grade.

This was the first game Pop has had all five bigs at his disposal (last game Splitter was back but Bonner was resting). One game in, I wasn't too please with what I saw. Blair is the last of the five bigs I want to see close games. And seeing no sign of Duncan and Splitter playing together against a long, physical team is depressing, tbh.

One thing to consider is that the coaching staff may have been resting Diaw. It's unlikely due to the two days off before this game but perhaps they wanted to give him a break considering he went from nothing to playing five games in six nights.

We'll have to wait and see how Pop rotates his bigs going forward.



Thanks for your input :toast

I guess we'll just have to hope for the best but I admit, I'm not feeling very confident.


I definitely feel he would relax more and play more if he got guaranteed minutes. Alot of NBA players do. Especially in this case where he's losing minutes to Bonner/Blair. He would likely play more under control and draw more attention on offense.

Exactly.

I guess I just latched on to the Bargnani comparison because that's who he reminds me of in terms of playing style, body type, mental make up, etc. They're also about the same age and even got similar injuries with the whole calf strain thing. :lol

[ElNono]

Oh, and thanks for the writeup LJ

[Keepin' it real]

I guess I'm the only one happy to see Blair play down the stretch? If the Spurs go against OKC in the playoffs, you will all be singing his praises. He will be the X Factor in that series.

[therealtruth]

You're missing my point, which I made during the Diaw thread... Tim's minutes are only going up, which means Tiago minutes are going down.

Now, before we had Diaw and Jack, Pop basically had 3 options: certain smallball lineups, Bonner or Blair. It sucked, but the flipside was that due to the limited options, there was a chance for Tiago to take some of those minutes if either one of those two were sucking, or smallball wasn't cutting it. After the trade, that possibility seems pretty much gone.

As far as my suspicion of Diaw ending up warming the bench, it has everything to do Pop being a strict believer in pecking order. Bonner and Blair will have priority for minutes because they've been here longer. "Wouldn't be fair to the team" otherwise.

It seems like Tim's minutes have gone up which has limited Splitter's ability to impact games. At 60% shooting Splitter should be getting at least 12+ attempts a game. Those are easy points that put pressure on the other team's defense and open it up for our shooters. The way Pop has treated Tiago goes beyond belief because he could have a much greater impact as we saw before he got injured. All the excuses (he's injury prone, he and Duncan are centers, they can't play together, too much Bonner/Blair, etc) are quite frankly weak.

[spurs10]

Like many here, my greatest concern is the rotation of the bigs. I, too wasn't happy to see Diaw riding the bench while Blair closed. ElNono's "pecking order" statement has validity, but leaves us back where we started. We have two bigs, Tim and Tiago, that don't play together, a 'specialist' who doesn't defend the basket or rebound much, and an undersized 4 that's not so great on defense. I think B&B have value and are showing improvement, but Tim can't do it all. I also don't think that Pop is saving Tiago for the playoffs. Perhaps we'll see him play a bit more, but I have my doubts about them starting together.
Also Jackson starting for Green makes me wonder who will come in for Kawhi. So far, Jack and Kawhi sharing the 3, and some small ball with them playing 4 & 3, seems more likely.
Thanks all for your takes, in the end I don't envision Blair as our closer.

[Obstructed_View]

I guess I'm the only one happy to see Blair play down the stretch? If the Spurs go against OKC in the playoffs, you will all be singing his praises. He will be the X Factor in that series.

Then you'd better start hoping they meet up in the first round.

[Borosai]

Fortunately this place was named SpursTalk and not SpursCliff.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Then you'd better start hoping they meet up in the first round.

and if Blair is closing out games, then they probably will, because the Spurs would plummet down the standings.

[DPG21920]

Spur fans that keep acting like winning means there are no concerns are crazy to me and haven't learned a thing despite the epic failures in the playoffs for the Spurs in recent years. If you want to say complaining about it is lame, ok, I get that; but to act like there aren't valid concerns, especially about the defense and Pop's rotations (namely the bigs) is just foolish and comes off as smug and arrogant.

Spurs are a very good team. They also have a lot of concerning holes.

[benefactor]

As far as my suspicion of Diaw ending up warming the bench, it has everything to do Pop being a strict believer in pecking order. Bonner and Blair will have priority for minutes because they've been here longer. "Wouldn't be fair to the team" otherwise.
Your forgot about the part where the Spurs go down 3-1 and in the second half of the elimination game Pop decides to pull Bonner and put in Diaw as a last gasp attempt to pull the game out before being eliminated.

[DesignatedT]

Spurs fans who focus solely on the negatives can't believe those Spurs fans who focus on the positives while Spurs fans who focus solely on the positives can't believe those Spurs fans who focus on the negatives.

[TJastal]

Add in Danny Green's grade.

This was the first game Pop has had all five bigs at his disposal (last game Splitter was back but Bonner was resting). One game in, I wasn't too please with what I saw. Blair is the last of the five bigs I want to see close games. And seeing no sign of Duncan and Splitter playing together against a long, physical team is depressing, tbh.

One thing to consider is that the coaching staff may have been resting Diaw. It's unlikely due to the two days off before this game but perhaps they wanted to give him a break considering he went from nothing to playing five games in six nights.

We'll have to wait and see how Pop rotates his bigs going forward.

He looked pretty solid. He came out of the gates a little jittery but settled in and played well. That's actually the best I've seen Hill run their team (his six assists tied his season-high). He defended Parker at a decent level. I was impressed on that three-pointer he hit off the dribble ... we didn't see him hit many three-pointers off the dribble in his time with the Spurs.

It'll be interesting to see what kind of contract he lands in free agency. Personally, I don't think he's capable of being a starting point guard in the NBA (his court vision is just too limited) but he just needs one team to believe in him to get paid . . .

I could see him landing in laker land as Kobe's backup. If the lakers have the $$ to throw at him.

[timvp]

You're missing my point, which I made during the Diaw thread... Tim's minutes are only going up, which means Tiago minutes are going down.

Now, before we had Diaw and Jack, Pop basically had 3 options: certain smallball lineups, Bonner or Blair. It sucked, but the flipside was that due to the limited options, there was a chance for Tiago to take some of those minutes if either one of those two were sucking, or smallball wasn't cutting it. After the trade, that possibility seems pretty much gone.

Splitter's minutes were always basically going to equal 48 minutes minus Tim Duncan's minutes. Before the trades and signings, Splitter was getting very erratic time next to TD ... which averaged out to less than three minutes per game. And for weeks prior to the trades and signings, Pop had already given up on Duncan and Splitter; it only made an appearances if there was foul trouble or injury.

In the playoffs, the only chance Splitter is going to play with Duncan is if Pop does it to match a big lineup. IMO, that has been the case all season and remains the case. So really, I don't think Splitter's situation has changed enough to say his role got bigger or small.

Overall though, there's no doubt that the bigman situation is better than it's been all season. While I want Duncan and Splitter together as much as anyone, having the option to turn to Diaw or smallball with Jack is better than living or dying with Bonner and Blair.


As far as my suspicion of Diaw ending up warming the bench, it has everything to do Pop being a strict believer in pecking order. Bonner and Blair will have priority for minutes because they've been here longer. "Wouldn't be fair to the team" otherwise.

Disagree that Pop is a "pecking order" coach. Nazr hopped to the front of the line back in 2005 even though he didn't even enter the rotation until April. Even Glenn Robinson got run in the postseason after signing in the final few days of the regular season. In 2006, Finley immediately became a Pop favorite -- even ahead of champions like Horry and Barry. In 2008, Kurt Thomas started playoff games even though he was acquired at the trade deadline. In 2009, Drew Gooden had a large run down the stretch of the season.

If you want to go back further, Pop benched AJ and Elliott for two newbies in Terry Porter and Danny Ferry back in 2001.

Pop sometimes makes the wrong decisions on who to play but I disagree it's because he believes in a pecking order.

[DPG21920]

Focus is one thing, flat out denial and lying is another.

Like those who quote Tiago as "injury prone because he missed 4 games" and ignore a certain player who is way more injury prone, missed many more games yet plays much more minutes....

Or those that say LA is not a concern. Or those that forget the last time this team won a 2nd round game...

[DPG21920]

Splitter's minutes were always basically going to equal 48 minutes minus Tim Duncan's minutes. Before the trades and signings, Splitter was getting very erratic time next to TD ... which averaged out to less than three minutes per game. And for weeks prior to the trades and signings, Pop had already given up on Duncan and Splitter; it only made an appearances if there was foul trouble or injury.

In the playoffs, the only chance Splitter is going to play with Duncan is if Pop does it to match a big lineup. IMO, that has been the case all season and remains the case. So really, I don't think Splitter's situation has changed enough to say his role got bigger or small.

Overall though, there's no doubt that the bigman situation is better than it's been all season. While I want Duncan and Splitter together as much as anyone, having the option to turn to Diaw or smallball with Jack is better than living or dying with Bonner and Blair.





Well this is a huge issue then because if you don't play your clear cut best players on both ends (Tiago) over known playoff chokers (Bonner) & question marks (Blair), the Spurs could be in significant trouble and if Tiago's already ridiculously low minutes go down in the playoffs because Tim's go up, the team will suffer on both ends.

[TJastal]

This season is starting to remind me of last season, piling up regular season wins with little thought to what will win in the playoffs. This weak ass frontline routine is getting old as is never seeing a Splitter-Duncan combination. Eventually all this idiocy is going to bite the spurs in the arse.

[timvp]

Tbh, Pop not even attempting to play Duncan and Splitter together for the last two years is one of the dumbest things he's ever done. Other than that, I think Pop has been a great coach this year. But that flaw in strategy is so glaring that it's difficult to look past it.

I mean, at some point in the last two seasons, why not make it a point to play Splitter a lot next to Duncan for about a week to see if it works? I'm not even saying to start Splitter necessarily ... just play them together for a few games in a row to get a better feel on whether or not it's an avenue worth exploring further.

Pop's reluctance to even try it so damn baffling . . .

[SpursRock20]

Per Elias Sports Bureau - The Spurs averaged a league-leading 107.1 points per game during the month of March - marking the first time that San Antonio has led the NBA in that category in any month since Gregg Popovich took over as its coach in 1996! The last time that the Spurs led the NBA in scoring over a month was back in December 1994, when Bob Hill was the coach.

It proves your point even further timvp. Pop should be willing take chances with Splitter and Duncan. Our offense is gravy right now and will be there in May. We should really be experimenting with deffensive line-ups and not playing Blair in crunch time.

[DPG21920]

Spurs have to hope Bonner can do something he's never done before: hit shots consistently in the playoffs, especially in crunch time. Because right now, despite all of the (what appears to be obvious) analysis, the history shows Pop is going to roll with Bonner. It's not that you can't win in the playoffs with Bonner - it's that you can't win with how Bonner has performed in the playoffs vs the regular season.

But Tiago's production on both ends has easily placed him in the top 4-5 players on this team yet his minutes clearly don't reflect that; with or without Tim.

[TJastal]

Per Elias Sports Bureau - The Spurs averaged a league-leading 107.1 points per game during the month of March - marking the first time that San Antonio has led the NBA in that category in any month since Gregg Popovich took over as its coach in 1996! The last time that the Spurs led the NBA in scoring over a month was back in December 1994, when Bob Hill was the coach.

It proves your point even further timvp. Pop should be willing take chances with Splitter and Duncan. Are offense is gravy right now and will be there in May. We should really be experimenting with deffensive line-ups and not playing Blair in crunch time.

Big :tu

It's so damn frustrating to know this team has the potential to be scary good on both ends of the floor yet Pop is focusing strictly on one end.

[DPG21920]

The only saving grace right now, though I'm not sure it will be enough to overcome the big rotation if Bonner/Blair continue to get more minutes while Tiago's declines for whatever reason, is that with RJ gone and Kawhi in the line up more along with other wings the Spurs perimeter defense is improved. How much, we don't know yet, but it's definitely a higher ceiling.

[jestersmash]

At this point, I can only hope Pop is deliberately trying to keep Splitter under the radar as much as possible in the regular season for the sole purpose of surprising teams come playoff time. Perhaps he doesn't want other contenders to start aggressively scouting Splitter's skill set and value to the team in relatively "meaningless" regular season games.

Or perhaps I've just gone way beyond playing the devil's advocate here :lol

[TE]

We can bitch, worry, complain, overanalyze about every possible reason as to why Splitter should have increased minutes over Bonner/Blair but at the end of the day we can't do shit about it.

We shouldn't expect a different outcome in regards to rotation and minutes come this postseason, even if it makes TOO much sense.

[Paranoid Pop]

Not sure Tiago is better than Boris tho, what he does is rebound better, a lineup of Kahwi Tiago Tim gets the most rebounds but Pop doesn't like it obviously.

Pop probably thinks that Tiago can't defend PFs. It's not about offensive range since Dejuan has none.

And there may be some truth to it but if Boris doesn't play big minutes at PF (starting or not doesn't matter) we're fucked imo.

[timvp]

Spurs have to hope Bonner can do something he's never done before: hit shots consistently in the playoffsHeck, Bonner has never really hit shots consistently in the playoffs or in clutch situations. Even when his percentages are decent, his attempts are always way down.

In clutch situations this season, here are Bonner's stats:

51 minutes
9 points
2-for-4 from the field (all three-pointers)
3-for-7 at the line
6 rebounds (all defensive)
1 assist
3 turnovers
3 fouls

Even if you want to ignore his playoff struggles of the past, his regular season clutch play this year once again points to him not handling pressure well. I'm not sure how gigantic of a sample size Pop wants before he finally realizes Bonner isn't made for the clutch.

[maverick1948]

:lol roy
:lol accusing people of shit basketball takes
:lol pot meeting kettle

Who really gives a damn about comparing Bonner vs. Diaw on post defense/rebounding? That's about as relevant as making threads saying that say a good Manu = Championship.

Some things are obvious. There is really no reason to look at Bonner and make any sort of argument that he is a better option than Diaw. Diaw is actually a real basketball player and Bonner is just a specialist that tries hard and flames out when the lights turn on.

WOW We are 4 games out of the BEST RECORD in the league with Bonner/Blair getting us there most of the season. But now Diaw, out of shape, comes in and suddenly the team we had is NOT worth a damn? Come on Bonner does what he is paid to do and does play in the Spurs system. Diaw has no idea what to do. A couple of practices and he is the great savior of this Spurs team? NO way.

[Paranoid Pop]

WOW We are 4 games out of the BEST RECORD in the league with Bonner/Blair getting us there most of the season. But now Diaw, out of shape, comes in and suddenly the team we had is NOT worth a damn? Come on Bonner does what he is paid to do and does play in the Spurs system. Diaw has no idea what to do. A couple of practices and he is the great savior of this Spurs team? NO way.

No practice at all actually, all BB IQ and instinct.

[benefactor]

Try watching some playoff games.

[DPG21920]

Luckily, as HH and a few of us have said, the top 5 teams in the West all have pretty glaring holes. It will be about health and who can be coached through those holes and play to their strengths.

[maverick1948]

See now if that happens I'd have to start suggesting that the team consider bringing in some fresh blood. Bonner and Blair are not going to cut it.

I don't care how much Bonner tries and I hate the idea of leaning on a guy who checked out mentally last time because he was sent to the bench. Duncan, Manu, and the fans all deserve better.

I read on another board that Thibs wasn't happy with his contract situation. He's a FA over the summer as well. Defense-first, giving minutes to productive players, impressive resume, etc.

I'd break the bank to give someone like that a shot. The coach doesn't have to win games but undermining your own team like that is inexcusable.


Yep Coach Pop is undermining the his own team. He wants to lose every game and tries really hard. DUD have you looked at the Spurs record? We have won 36 games this season. Would you feel better if we had won all 50 by playing our main players 48 mins?

Some of you folks need to watch the game sometimes instead of posting on here. You miss too much action. If you watch the game, you might learn a few things about coaching from Pop. After all, he has 4 championship rings as a head coach.

[benefactor]

Luckily, as HH and a few of us have said, the top 5 teams in the West all have pretty glaring holes. It will be about health and who can be coached through those holes and play to their strengths.
Yup...it's a good year for all of this to happen. There isn't a contender out there in either conference that doesn't have flaws that could potentially be exploited if the cards are played right.

[DPG21920]

So in that regard thank goodness we have Pop. I'm just hoping that he's not ignoring Tiago's production/impact on both ends. Regardless of whether you can play Tim/Tiago together, if Tim's minutes go up, you can't cut Tiago's.

[roycrikside]

Try watching some playoff games.

I guess Steve Kerr > John Stockton and Steve Nash and Robert Horry > Karl Malone, Patrick Ewing and Charles Barkley.

It's a team game.

Matt Bonner has been more harshly criticized for his playoff performances than any role player ever. The whole point of a role player is whatever they give you in May and June is gravy.

I'm sure none of you remember when guys like Horry and Kerr had crappy playoff games. You only remember the good ones and the big shots. But there were games where those guys did nothing too. If you want evidence, check out Horry's play in 2003 and 2006.

Ultimately we'll win or lose based on how Tim, Manu and Tony play. They need to be consistent and play well game after game. The other guys will be good some days and bad the other days, and home/road will probably weigh into it.

[benefactor]

:lol

[roycrikside]

Yup...it's a good year for all of this to happen. There isn't a contender out there in either conference that doesn't have flaws that could potentially be exploited if the cards are played right.

I actually think the West is more top-heavy this year than last year. I'd have a very difficult time seeing anyone besides OKC or SA coming out, with LAL as the dark horse because of their size.

I don't give Dal, LAC or Mem any shot whatsoever, tbh.

[Nathan89]

Perhaps Diaw spent the last couple of days trying to get into better shape and Pop gave him the night off. By missing just one game gave him 5 straight days without a game. I know Dirk missed a few games when he was trying to get back into shape. Rest after two days of not playing just doesn't make sense.

[roycrikside]

Here's the net +/- per 100 possessions for last year's series with the Grizzlies (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/plus/plus_minus_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id=&match=single&output=per_poss&year_min=2011&year_max=2011&age_min=0&age_max=99&is_playoffs=Y&team_id=SAS&opp_id=&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&game_month=&game_location=&game_result=&c1stat=mp&c1comp=ge&c1val=50&c2stat=&c2comp=ge&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=ge&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=ge&c4val=&order_by=diff_pts). Obviously Bonner didn't play well, but as you can see, there are quite a few other people who deserve a bigger slice of the blame before you get to him. (Here's a hint, a couple of them are no longer here).


1 DeJuan Blair SAS 2010-11 4 50.3 97 98 93.0 +1.4 +1.9 +.007 0.0 +1.2 -.019 +.006 +10.5 +15.7 -.020 +13.3
2 Manu Ginobili SAS 2010-11 5 174.3 334 330 91.4 -0.2 -4.6 +.023 +3.9 +8.8 +.087 +.047 +1.0 +2.4 -.031 +4.5
3 Antonio McDyess SAS 2010-11 6 145.4 273 267 89.1 -3.8 -7.8 -.004 +2.2 +4.9 +.081 +.011 +1.0 +1.2 +.002 -4.4
4 Tim Duncan SAS 2010-11 6 212.0 396 396 89.7 -4.3 -4.8 -.025 +2.5 +9.1 -.036 -0.008 +1.5 +0.3 +.040 -4.5
5 Matt Bonner SAS 2010-11 6 122.5 231 232 90.7 -6.7 +2.6 -.087 +1.3 +11.3 -.118 -0.081 +7.4 +6.6 +.105 -4.7
6 Tony Parker SAS 2010-11 6 220.8 415 414 90.1 -4.4 -4.5 -.029 +1.0 +7.2 -.085 -0.022 +3.1 +2.6 +.037 -4.8
7 George Hill SAS 2010-11 6 188.9 352 357 90.1 -5.9 +1.8 -.080 +1.8 +7.3 -.035 -0.070 +4.8 +2.7 +.092 -5.2
8 Richard Jefferson SAS 2010-11 6 176.4 332 333 90.5 -5.3 -8.5 -.019 -0.3 +3.7 -.099 -0.018 +4.9 +5.8 +.022 -6.0
9 Tiago Splitter SAS 2010-11 3 50.1 93 94 89.6 -3.8 +11.7 -.104 +2.2 +15.2 -.184 -0.096 -3.1 -4.1 +.008 -8.5
10 Gary Neal SAS 2010-11 6 111.3 213 212 91.6 -6.8 +7.6 -.115 +2.8 +9.8 -.028 -0.103 -0.1 -3.0 +.070 -10.9

[Paranoid Pop]

I guess Steve Kerr > John Stockton and Steve Nash and Robert Horry > Karl Malone, Patrick Ewing and Charles Barkley.

It's a team game.

Matt Bonner has been more harshly criticized for his playoff performances than any role player ever. The whole point of a role player is whatever they give you in May and June is gravy.

I'm sure none of you remember when guys like Horry and Kerr had crappy playoff games. You only remember the good ones and the big shots. But there were games where those guys did nothing too. If you want evidence, check out Horry's play in 2003 and 2006.

Ultimately we'll win or lose based on how Tim, Manu and Tony play. They need to be consistent and play well game after game. The other guys will be good some days and bad the other days, and home/road will probably weigh into it.

The PF position is our weakest with elite PFs like Dirk, Griffin, Zbo, Gasol waiting for us in the PO, the D of our PF is crucial to this team success.

[benefactor]

I actually think the West is more top-heavy this year than last year. I'd have a very difficult time seeing anyone besides OKC or SA coming out, with LAL as the dark horse because of their size.

I don't give Dal, LAC or Mem any shot whatsoever, tbh.
Yeah...it's much less wide open than it was in the past top to bottom, but the top doesn't really have a force so dominant that one could point to that team and say "this team is the team." Any of the top teams could lose and it wouldn't be surprising tbh.

[TheSkeptic]

Yep Coach Pop is undermining the his own team. He wants to lose every game and tries really hard. DUD have you looked at the Spurs record? We have won 36 games this season. Would you feel better if we had won all 50 by playing our main players 48 mins?

Some of you folks need to watch the game sometimes instead of posting on here. You miss too much action. If you watch the game, you might learn a few things about coaching from Pop. After all, he has 4 championship rings as a head coach.

For the last time I'm a woman.

And I don't dispute that he's done an excellent job of maintaining the overall health of the team while putting them in a good position on the season. His accomplishments speak for themselves.

Here's the thing, nobody wins championships starting Blair and giving Bonner significant minutes. It's just not going to happen. They'll be exposed in the playoffs where *talent* as opposed to *trying* matters.

In years past the team just didn't have the personnel. This year they have better players on the bench that the coach is just choosing not to play.

By opting to not only bench better players but to play undersized/defensively challenged ones he is leaving Tim out to dry and effectively undermining the team because they'd have to win *despite* his decisions.

As the coach, who's supposed to be maximizing his personnel and putting the team into a position to succeed, that can't happen.

It also looks like he's not learning from the mistakes he's made in the past. That also can't happen.

Put simply, the coach is becoming a problem because his decisions are going to make things harder on his team in the post-season if something doesn't change soon.

That's why I'm saying that if the Spurs lose again because of this short-sighted thinking, the team needs to do the right thing and at least give Thibs a call over the summer.

We've seen this happen before and fans like myself have every right to be concerned about where things are headed.

Pop's resume speaks for itself and I'm glad he and Tim Duncan were able to bring 4 rings to San Antonio.

That being said, this hall of fame coach needs to put his hall of fame skills to work and put together a system that maximizes his best players. Time is running out and it doesn't look like he's doing it. Again.

If you can't see that the lack of size/skill/defense is going to be a serious problem against the bigger frontlines of the West, I don't want to imply that you're not watching critically, but the only thing I can tell you is to re-watch the Memphis series and every playoff series the Spurs have been in since 2008.

[roycrikside]

Bonner also led the team in points per 100 possessions while he was on the floor against the Grizzlies, at 107.4. Where he hurt them, was on defense, where he was second-to-last at 112.1 per 100 possessions.

So if anything, you can say he "choked" that series defensively.

[Paranoid Pop]

I actually think the West is more top-heavy this year than last year. I'd have a very difficult time seeing anyone besides OKC or SA coming out, with LAL as the dark horse because of their size.

I don't give Dal, LAC or Mem any shot whatsoever, tbh.

LAC is the only one I would write off.

[roycrikside]

Yeah...it's much less wide open than it was in the past top to bottom, but the top doesn't really have a force so dominant that one could point to that team and say "this team is the team." Any of the top teams could lose and it wouldn't be surprising tbh.

I'm actually curious if any of the bottom teams will tank or maneuver themselves to face the Spurs in the first round, a la Memphis last year, because of SA's perceived weakness in the front court.

Personally, I'd be pretty happy if the Grizzlies tried that again. Spurs are 3-0 against them this year, including 2-0 @Mem and I know there's no way we'd overlook them. It'd be pretty much the best way to guarantee that the Spurs would be "locked in" and focused from Game 1. Besides, the Grizzlies can't really shoot. I'm more worried about us playing teams that can hit open jump shots all day long than the bangers inside. Hot-shooting teams have been the ones who've killed us this year.

Of course my dream match-up would be the Nuggets. I'd beg the Spurs to tank game 1. :lol

[jestersmash]

Here's the net +/- per 100 possessions for last year's series with the Grizzlies (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/plus/plus_minus_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id=&match=single&output=per_poss&year_min=2011&year_max=2011&age_min=0&age_max=99&is_playoffs=Y&team_id=SAS&opp_id=&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&game_month=&game_location=&game_result=&c1stat=mp&c1comp=ge&c1val=50&c2stat=&c2comp=ge&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=ge&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=ge&c4val=&order_by=diff_pts). Obviously Bonner didn't play well, but as you can see, there are quite a few other people who deserve a bigger slice of the blame before you get to him. (Here's a hint, a couple of them are no longer here).


1 DeJuan Blair SAS 2010-11 4 50.3 97 98 93.0 +1.4 +1.9 +.007 0.0 +1.2 -.019 +.006 +10.5 +15.7 -.020 +13.3
2 Manu Ginobili SAS 2010-11 5 174.3 334 330 91.4 -0.2 -4.6 +.023 +3.9 +8.8 +.087 +.047 +1.0 +2.4 -.031 +4.5
3 Antonio McDyess SAS 2010-11 6 145.4 273 267 89.1 -3.8 -7.8 -.004 +2.2 +4.9 +.081 +.011 +1.0 +1.2 +.002 -4.4
4 Tim Duncan SAS 2010-11 6 212.0 396 396 89.7 -4.3 -4.8 -.025 +2.5 +9.1 -.036 -0.008 +1.5 +0.3 +.040 -4.5
5 Matt Bonner SAS 2010-11 6 122.5 231 232 90.7 -6.7 +2.6 -.087 +1.3 +11.3 -.118 -0.081 +7.4 +6.6 +.105 -4.7
6 Tony Parker SAS 2010-11 6 220.8 415 414 90.1 -4.4 -4.5 -.029 +1.0 +7.2 -.085 -0.022 +3.1 +2.6 +.037 -4.8
7 George Hill SAS 2010-11 6 188.9 352 357 90.1 -5.9 +1.8 -.080 +1.8 +7.3 -.035 -0.070 +4.8 +2.7 +.092 -5.2
8 Richard Jefferson SAS 2010-11 6 176.4 332 333 90.5 -5.3 -8.5 -.019 -0.3 +3.7 -.099 -0.018 +4.9 +5.8 +.022 -6.0
9 Tiago Splitter SAS 2010-11 3 50.1 93 94 89.6 -3.8 +11.7 -.104 +2.2 +15.2 -.184 -0.096 -3.1 -4.1 +.008 -8.5
10 Gary Neal SAS 2010-11 6 111.3 213 212 91.6 -6.8 +7.6 -.115 +2.8 +9.8 -.028 -0.103 -0.1 -3.0 +.070 -10.9

If you had to pick a single stat to encapsulate overall "value" to the team, +/- is probably the worst stat you can use.

PER to me was a step up from +/-, and most people agree that PER's lack of emphasis on defensive output is its fatal flaw.

Manu and Tim play a 2 man game with a high pick and roll that leads to an easy 2 points by Duncan. Should Danny Green really be credited "+2" for standing out on the wing and being lucky enough (if your goal is to win the +/- battle :lol) to be out there while the rest of the team is scoring? I feel like the threat of a Gary Neal 3 point shot would have spaced the floor just as effectively as the threat of a Danny Green 3 point shot in that situation, and yet Green's just added +2 to his +/- while Neal is on the bench. +/- is correlation "incarnate" to me.

To be fair, I'm not quite sure what to use as the ultimate "single" advanced stat. Win shares (WS) or WS/48 seems to be trending as of late. I usually look at a combination of PER, WS/48, and +/- but that's just me. I'm almost inclined to say that I'd rather look at PER than +/- if I was limited to using just one advanced stat. I really like PER's incorporation of the "usage" metric. Incorporating "usage" renders PER as more of an "individualistic" advanced stat than +/-.

I don't understand the fascination with +/-, but I'm totally open to argument.

[benefactor]

The perimeter upgrades and a healthy Manu alone make the Grizz a much easier out. The Grizz aren't as good on the perimeter as they were last year either.

[TheSkeptic]

If you had to pick a single stat to encapsulate overall "value" to the team, +/- is probably the worst stat you can use.

PER to me was a step up from +/-, and most people agree that PER's lack of emphasis on defensive output is its fatal flaw.

Manu and Tim play a 2 man game with a high pick and roll that leads to an easy 2 points by Duncan. Should Danny Green really be credited "+2" for standing out on the wing and being lucky enough (if your goal is to win the +/- battle :lol) to be out there while the rest of the team is scoring? I feel like the threat of a Gary Neal 3 point shot would have spaced the floor just as effectively as the threat of a Danny Green 3 point shot in that situation, and yet Green's just added +2 to his +/- while Neal is on the bench. +/- is correlation "incarnate" to me.

To be fair, I'm not quite sure what to use as the ultimate "single" advanced stat. Win shares (WS) or WS/48 seems to be trending as of late. I usually look at a combination of PER, WS/48, and +/- but that's just me. I'm almost inclined to say that I'd rather look at PER than +/- if I was limited to using just one advanced stat. I really like PER's incorporation of the "usage" metric. Incorporating "usage" renders PER as more of an "individualistic" advanced stat than +/-.

I don't understand the fascination with +/-, but I'm totally open to argument.

I was actually about to say something similar but you've covered it much better than I could have. :lol

[roycrikside]

Heck, Bonner has never really hit shots consistently in the playoffs or in clutch situations. Even when his percentages are decent, his attempts are always way down.

In clutch situations this season, here are Bonner's stats:

51 minutes
9 points
2-for-4 from the field (all three-pointers)
3-for-7 at the line
6 rebounds (all defensive)
1 assist
3 turnovers
3 fouls

Even if you want to ignore his playoff struggles of the past, his regular season clutch play this year once again points to him not handling pressure well. I'm not sure how gigantic of a sample size Pop wants before he finally realizes Bonner isn't made for the clutch.

It's silly to expect Bonner to ever get as many 3-pt attempts in the playoffs where we'll play teams who'll game plan to take it away and who will rotate more aggressively. Where his value will shine (or not) is how he and the team reacts to those aggressive close outs.

If Bonner pump fakes and dribble drives and scores with his floater or if he can pass it to the right guy and that guy hits the shot, then Bonner is effectively doing his job of spacing the floor and making the other team pay.
If he misses those floaters or turns it over, that will be bad. We'll see. The variable he can't control is whether his teammates make their shots or not.

Tbh, I'm more worried about how Bonner will do on the defensive end, but that's not unique to him since I feel the same way about every single Spur. Like I've stated before, I think our magic number is 95. If we hold people to 95 or less, it should be a W and if it's not, it's the offense's fault. If we give up 96 or more and lose, it's the defense's fault.

[benefactor]

For the last time I'm a woman.


Don't let it bother you too much. 228 had it under her user name in the form of a Spur and most people still thought she was a dude.

[Obstructed_View]

and if Blair is closing out games, then they probably will, because the Spurs would plummet down the standings.

True. If he's closing out games, they aren't getting deep enough to meet OKC unless the plummet happens.

[roycrikside]

If you had to pick a single stat to encapsulate overall "value" to the team, +/- is probably the worst stat you can use.

PER to me was a step up from +/-, and most people agree that PER's lack of emphasis on defensive output is its fatal flaw.

Manu and Tim play a 2 man game with a high pick and roll that leads to an easy 2 points by Duncan. Should Danny Green really be credited "+2" for standing out on the wing and being lucky enough (if your goal is to win the +/- battle :lol) to be out there while the rest of the team is scoring? I feel like the threat of a Gary Neal 3 point shot would have spaced the floor just as effectively as the threat of a Danny Green 3 point shot in that situation, and yet Green's just added +2 to his +/- while Neal is on the bench. +/- is correlation "incarnate" to me.

To be fair, I'm not quite sure what to use as the ultimate "single" advanced stat. Win shares (WS) or WS/48 seems to be trending as of late. I usually look at a combination of PER, WS/48, and +/- but that's just me. I'm almost inclined to say that I'd rather look at PER than +/- if I was limited to using just one advanced stat. I really like PER's incorporation of the "usage" metric. Incorporating "usage" renders PER as more of an "individualistic" advanced stat than +/-.

I don't understand the fascination with +/-, but I'm totally open to argument.

Playoffs Advanced
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Rk Player Age G MP PER TS% eFG% ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg OWS DWS WS WS/48
1 Manu Ginobili 33 5 174 22.3 .585 .507 1.3 12.3 6.7 23.6 4.0 1.2 16.2 28.3 107 102 0.3 0.3 0.6 .155
2 George Hill 24 6 189 15.6 .554 .440 3.0 15.8 9.2 12.7 2.5 0.8 11.2 17.7 112 104 0.3 0.2 0.5 .135
3 Matt Bonner 30 6 123 11.8 .646 .600 6.5 11.6 9.0 2.7 0.4 0.6 3.3 11.6 137 109 0.3 0.1 0.4 .159
4 Tony Parker 28 6 221 17.6 .531 .468 0.5 8.1 4.2 28.3 1.9 0.6 15.3 27.8 101 108 0.1 0.2 0.3 .070
5 Tiago Splitter 26 3 50 21.1 .577 .625 15.9 16.7 16.3 4.1 3.2 1.4 10.4 18.1 113 102 0.1 0.1 0.2 .156
6 Richard Jefferson 30 6 176 7.7 .544 .484 1.3 15.6 8.3 4.6 0.9 1.2 14.3 11.2 101 107 0.0 0.2 0.2 .054
7 Tim Duncan 34 6 212 15.5 .500 .478 8.6 26.4 17.3 14.1 0.7 5.1 19.1 20.8 94 102 -0.1 0.3 0.2 .053
8 Gary Neal 26 6 111 11.3 .469 .424 2.0 17.2 9.4 8.4 0.5 0.6 3.9 21.6 100 108 0.0 0.1 0.1 .053
9 Antonio McDyess 36 6 145 7.9 .435 .417 7.8 16.4 12.0 9.4 0.7 2.5 15.2 14.9 91 106 -0.1 0.1 0.1 .021
10 Danny Green 23 4 7 26.0 .417 .417 0.0 17.0 8.3 70.8 7.6 10.3 14.3 46.9 87 85 0.0 0.0 0.0 .027
11 Steve Novak 27 1 6 2.5 0.0 19.9 9.7 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 110 0.0 0.0 0.0 .029
12 DeJuan Blair 21 4 50 9.6 .366 .333 20.4 9.5 15.1 7.3 0.0 1.4 7.9 23.7 91 110 0.0 0.0 0.0 -0.021

Kindly point out to me who led the Spurs in WS/48 in the playoffs last season.

As for PER, Bonner was 6th, behind Manu (22.3), Tiago (21.1), Tony (17.6), Hill (15.6) and Tim (15.5) but ahead of Neal (11.3), Blair (9.6), McDyess (7.9) and Jefferson (7.7).

Again, if you want to lay blame for why the Spurs lost that series, I'd point to the starters with the exception of the guy with the broken arm. No matter what statistical tool you use, it's not going to lead you to the magic answer of Bonner being the main culprit or even in the top 5.

[angelbelow]

Bonner also led the team in points per 100 possessions while he was on the floor against the Grizzlies, at 107.4. Where he hurt them, was on defense, where he was second-to-last at 112.1 per 100 possessions.

So if anything, you can say he "choked" that series defensively.

Bonner's role on offense is to take and make wide open 3pointers. Outside of game 1 he failed to do so. You can argue whether "choked" is too strong or too weak of a description but I think its an appropriate. Especially when you factor in his history of choking when its important.

Also, I agree that Bonner isn't the only player to blame, he was just the most disappointing to watch. Going from a regular season hero to a playoff zero is always tough to see and easy to criticize. RJ was terrible, he was terrible in the regular season too. Hill was below average, also a player who chokes in big moments.

[DPG21920]

Don't think that is fair about Hill. While he's not a consistent force, he's had some pretty big games in the playoffs (see Mavs/Spurs 2010)

[Obstructed_View]

Bonner's role on offense is to take and make wide open 3pointers. Outside of game 1 he failed to do so. You can argue whether "choked" is too strong or too weak of a description but I think its an appropriate. Especially when you factor in his history of choking when its important.

Also, I agree that Bonner isn't the only player to blame, he was just the most disappointing to watch. Going from a regular season hero to a playoff zero is always tough to see and easy to criticize. RJ was terrible, he was terrible in the regular season too. Hill was below average, also a player who chokes in big moments.

Bonner's role SHOULD be to take and make wide open three pointers. That requires him not being on the floor enough to get exploited. When the guy that was shooting over him suddenly gets some confidence and goes off, then it goes way beyond "choking" or "disappointing".

[jestersmash]

Playoffs Advanced
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Rk Player Age G MP PER TS% eFG% ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg OWS DWS WS WS/48
1 Manu Ginobili 33 5 174 22.3 .585 .507 1.3 12.3 6.7 23.6 4.0 1.2 16.2 28.3 107 102 0.3 0.3 0.6 .155
2 George Hill 24 6 189 15.6 .554 .440 3.0 15.8 9.2 12.7 2.5 0.8 11.2 17.7 112 104 0.3 0.2 0.5 .135
3 Matt Bonner 30 6 123 11.8 .646 .600 6.5 11.6 9.0 2.7 0.4 0.6 3.3 11.6 137 109 0.3 0.1 0.4 .159
4 Tony Parker 28 6 221 17.6 .531 .468 0.5 8.1 4.2 28.3 1.9 0.6 15.3 27.8 101 108 0.1 0.2 0.3 .070
5 Tiago Splitter 26 3 50 21.1 .577 .625 15.9 16.7 16.3 4.1 3.2 1.4 10.4 18.1 113 102 0.1 0.1 0.2 .156
6 Richard Jefferson 30 6 176 7.7 .544 .484 1.3 15.6 8.3 4.6 0.9 1.2 14.3 11.2 101 107 0.0 0.2 0.2 .054
7 Tim Duncan 34 6 212 15.5 .500 .478 8.6 26.4 17.3 14.1 0.7 5.1 19.1 20.8 94 102 -0.1 0.3 0.2 .053
8 Gary Neal 26 6 111 11.3 .469 .424 2.0 17.2 9.4 8.4 0.5 0.6 3.9 21.6 100 108 0.0 0.1 0.1 .053
9 Antonio McDyess 36 6 145 7.9 .435 .417 7.8 16.4 12.0 9.4 0.7 2.5 15.2 14.9 91 106 -0.1 0.1 0.1 .021
10 Danny Green 23 4 7 26.0 .417 .417 0.0 17.0 8.3 70.8 7.6 10.3 14.3 46.9 87 85 0.0 0.0 0.0 .027
11 Steve Novak 27 1 6 2.5 0.0 19.9 9.7 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 110 0.0 0.0 0.0 .029
12 DeJuan Blair 21 4 50 9.6 .366 .333 20.4 9.5 15.1 7.3 0.0 1.4 7.9 23.7 91 110 0.0 0.0 0.0 -0.021

Kindly point out to me who led the Spurs in WS/48 in the playoffs last season.

As for PER, Bonner was 6th, behind Manu (22.3), Tiago (21.1), Tony (17.6), Hill (15.6) and Tim (15.5) but ahead of Neal (11.3), Blair (9.6), McDyess (7.9) and Jefferson (7.7).

Again, if you want to lay blame for why the Spurs lost that series, I'd point to the starters with the exception of the guy with the broken arm. No matter what statistical tool you use, it's not going to lead you to the magic answer of Bonner being the main culprit or even in the top 5.

Oh, I think you misinterpreted the point of my post. I wasn't arguing against your main point (in fact, as you just showed, PER and WS/48 tell a similar tale). My post was really more of a rant/aside on +/- :lol

Also (just an FYI to others reading), if you like using basketball-reference, check out offensive rating (ORtg) and defensive rating (DRtg) as well. The differential there (ORtg-DRtg) can often give you a good sense of overall "value" to the team.

Blair lead the team in net +/- per 100 possessions against Memphis in the playoffs last season, but PER, WS/48, and ORtg-DRtg tell exactly the opposite story :lol

Again, I agree with the intended argument you were trying to make. I just wanted to caution the use of +/- as a single advanced stat when trying to make that point.

[Mugen]

It's absolutely mind boggling that the Matt Bonner debate is still going on after 2+ years of epic choking and softness.

Guys like Hedo, Mase, and RJ were let go after their poor playoff performances, meanwhile this ginger fuck managed to get a contact extension. Even Bruce Bowen was traded when his skills began to decline.

Pop now actually has two vastly superior basketball players / bigmen in Tiago and Diaw and people are still making excuses for Pop on why Tiago is not getting enough of time and Diaw is probably gonna be left out of the rotation.

It's comical that people who watched Darrell Arthur bend Bonner over a chair repeatedly last year are still willing to give this proven choker and loser a chance over guys like Tiago/Boris.

[jestersmash]

Bonner's 5th in net +/- per 100 possessions, but if you look at his DRtg during Memphis, he was ranked 10th/13 (above Blair and Novak). He's 7th (out of 12) in PER.

I look at his ORtg = 137 and immediately realize that it's an artifact created as a result of limited shot attempts.

Bottom line - I think it's better to look at a wide variety of these advanced metrics. I think Blair's +/- per 100 possessions "fool's gold" compared to his atrocious PER, WS/48, and ORtg-DRtg represents an excellent proof of concept.

[Obstructed_View]

Bowen was not only traded when his skills began to decline, he was removed from the rotation when the other options weren't necessarily an improvement.

It's pretty evident that anyone pulling up advanced stats from the playoffs did NOT watch Darrell Arthur bend Bonner over a chair.

[roycrikside]

Bonner's role on offense is to take and make wide open 3pointers. Outside of game 1 he failed to do so. You can argue whether "choked" is too strong or too weak of a description but I think its an appropriate. Especially when you factor in his history of choking when its important.

Also, I agree that Bonner isn't the only player to blame, he was just the most disappointing to watch. Going from a regular season hero to a playoff zero is always tough to see and easy to criticize. RJ was terrible, he was terrible in the regular season too. Hill was below average, also a player who chokes in big moments.

Bonner shot .464 in the regular season last year and .480 in the playoffs...

His true shooting percentage, factoring in threes, was .617 in the regular season, compared to .646 in the playoffs....

The area where he dipped was from .457 in 3s to .333 in the playoffs, but come on, we're talking about a sample size of 18 shots. If you think the best "clutch" shooters in the world didn't have 6-for-18 stretches during the playoffs, I don't know what to tell you.

As for the people who think Bonner turned into a turnover prone butter fingers in the playoffs, his turnover rate went from 6.7 in the regular season to 3.3 in the playoffs....

Again, his so-called "choking" came on the defensive end. On offense, he was the same ol' Matt Bonner.

[DPG21920]

You're wrong. Period.

[therealtruth]

The perimeter upgrades and a healthy Manu alone make the Grizz a much easier out. The Grizz aren't as good on the perimeter as they were last year either.

That does not make sense. How can you not improve your perimeter when you add Rudy Gay?

[spectator]

firstly, all those who claim they know better than pop are full of crap. he is not just managing lineups, he is managing players' egos, injuries, aches and bruises. granted that the spurs have the least player ego problem out of everyone in the league, but that does not mean the issue is non-existent. he's managing many of the little things that we are not aware of (e.g. say a very close friend of tony or manu passes away - he needs to manage that situation that never makes the media)

if one looks at tiago's time with the spurs, you can see that he spent a lot of time on the injury list. some ppl may ask why not play him as much as ginobili? at the same time, you can look at yao ming for a counter-example: he played every game for several seasons, got overplayed, then he never finished another season in his career. since big men don't grow on trees, i would rather we played tiago 16-18 minutes per game, than 25+ minutes.

as far as tiago and tim sharing time on the floor - it's not going to happen this year, so why bother at this point? pop has much, much, much more information about tiago than the most informed, media craving, spurs fan. he managed to transform a top 5 defensive team for 5+ seasons (IIRC) to a top 5 offensive team, to compensate for the lack of personnel, so i think he knows what he's doing.

nevertheless, this is the nature of the beast - even when our team is winning, ppl will find something to bitch and moan about. in 5-10 years, when the team would be rebuilding through the lottery, more than half of the ppl here will mysteriously disappear.

[DPG21920]

Please define "a lot of time".

[Muser]

Bonner shot .464 in the regular season last year and .480 in the playoffs...

His true shooting percentage, factoring in threes, was .617 in the regular season, compared to .646 in the playoffs....

The area where he dipped was from .457 in 3s to .333 in the playoffs, but come on, we're talking about a sample size of 18 shots. If you think the best "clutch" shooters in the world didn't have 6-for-18 stretches during the playoffs, I don't know what to tell you.

As for the people who think Bonner turned into a turnover prone butter fingers in the playoffs, his turnover rate went from 6.7 in the regular season to 3.3 in the playoffs....

Again, his so-called "choking" came on the defensive end. On offense, he was the same ol' Matt Bonner.

No. Matt Bonner has to stay around the .450 % to be an NBA player, he has no other skills.

[therealtruth]

It's silly to expect Bonner to ever get as many 3-pt attempts in the playoffs where we'll play teams who'll game plan to take it away and who will rotate more aggressively. Where his value will shine (or not) is how he and the team reacts to those aggressive close outs.

If Bonner pump fakes and dribble drives and scores with his floater or if he can pass it to the right guy and that guy hits the shot, then Bonner is effectively doing his job of spacing the floor and making the other team pay.
If he misses those floaters or turns it over, that will be bad. We'll see. The variable he can't control is whether his teammates make their shots or not.


Exactly. Teams are taking away 3's in the playoffs but 2's are still available. If you get the rare good look you have to hit it but you still have to make them pay for the aggressive closeouts by creating something or getting a jumper.

Even if Bonner just passes the ball back and resets the play on a closeout it hurts the team. TP or Manu work hard to get the defense to collapse and then Bonner passes the ball away to allow the defense to reset.

[roycrikside]

It's just hilarious to me that people want to lay the blame of losing a series on the Spurs' 7th or 8th most important player.

Is it so hard to admit that Tim, Tony, RJ and Dice were all subpar? The Spurs starters got outplayed by Memphis' starters. That's it.

[DPG21920]

No one is blaming this solely on Bonner. That doesn't mean that Bonner hasn't been awful in the playoffs and that Pop should not use him very much.

[roycrikside]

No. Matt Bonner has to stay around the .450 % to be an NBA player, he has no other skills.

So if he was 8-of-18 instead of 6-of-18, you wouldn't be bitching. Got it. I didn't realize those two shots were the difference in our three road losses at Memphis.

[Mugen]

as far as tiago and tim sharing time on the floor - it's not going to happen this year, so why bother at this point? pop has much, much, much more information about tiago than the most informed, media craving, spurs fan. he managed to transform a top 5 defensive team for 5+ seasons (IIRC) to a top 5 offensive team, to compensate for the lack of personnel, so i think he knows what he's doing.


The same exact thing was said last year as an excuse for Pop not playing Tiago and Tim together.

Then Pop had to scramble and put in Tiago in Game 4 when he finally realized Tim was getting abused out there by a bigger and more physical frontline and Bon Bon began to shrink away.

It was the exact scenario that many people had been warning against when the Spurs were racking up Ws in the regular season while not giving more time to a Tim/Tiago pairing when Pop had EVERY opportunity to do so last year. The same is happening this year. Pop's been great at managing minutes and the rotation but his failure once again to integrate a Tiago/Tim lineup is absolutely inexcusable.

I honestly can't understand how Popfans can still make the same old excuses for Pop not playing Tiago after witnessing the Memphis series last year.

[roycrikside]

Bowen was not only traded when his skills began to decline, he was removed from the rotation when the other options weren't necessarily an improvement.

It's pretty evident that anyone pulling up advanced stats from the playoffs did NOT watch Darrell Arthur bend Bonner over a chair.

No, I pointed out he was bad defensively. Unfortunately, so were all the other options. There was not a savior to be found.

[Mugen]

No, I pointed out he was bad defensively. Unfortunately, so were all the other options. There was not a savior to be found.

:lol You're saying Tiago could not have helped out defensively against MEM if he had been given time throughout the regular season?

[roycrikside]

No one is blaming this solely on Bonner. That doesn't mean that Bonner hasn't been awful in the playoffs and that Pop should not use him very much.

I've got tons of numbers at my disposal proving he wasn't awful, offensively. You've got "because I said so."

Forgive me if your argument doesn't blow me away.

[benefactor]

That does not make sense. How can you not improve your perimeter when you add Rudy Gay?
They have Gay back but are lacking in quality depth like they were last year. Gay is overrated anyway. His numbers are down across the board and he was pretty bad against the Spurs in the games he's played against them.

[DPG21920]

You're wrong, the arguments have already been made.

[benefactor]

Damn...roy is going all z0sa on us.

[roycrikside]

:lol You're saying Tiago could not have helped out defensively against MEM if he had been given time throughout the regular season?

That's a whole different argument. I'm analyzing the things that did happen, you're talking hypotheticals. Most people here, including me, wanted Tiago to play more last year and this year. Pop's not gonna listen to us.

As I've said, ad nauseam, Bonner isn't the guy to blame for Tiago's pine time. The guy to bench should be Blair (and Dice last year).

[Obstructed_View]

No, I pointed out he was bad defensively. Unfortunately, so were all the other options. There was not a savior to be found.

Tiago Splitter says hi from the bench. Ian Mahinmi says hi from the NBA finals.

[roycrikside]

The same exact thing was said last year as an excuse for Pop not playing Tiago and Tim together.

Then Pop had to scramble and put in Tiago in Game 4 when he finally realized Tim was getting abused out there by a bigger and more physical frontline and Bon Bon began to shrink away.

It was the exact scenario that many people had been warning against when the Spurs were racking up Ws in the regular season while not giving more time to a Tim/Tiago pairing when Pop had EVERY opportunity to do so last year. The same is happening this year. Pop's been great at managing minutes and the rotation but his failure once again to integrate a Tiago/Tim lineup is absolutely inexcusable.

I honestly can't understand how Popfans can still make the same old excuses for Pop not playing Tiago after witnessing the Memphis series last year.

I don't understand why Bonner is your sole scapegoat for this? Why not Blair? Why not Dice last year? They also shared plenty of court time with Tim and they were also the reasons people thought the team was weak in the frontcourt.

[therealtruth]

Splitter's minutes were always basically going to equal 48 minutes minus Tim Duncan's minutes. Before the trades and signings, Splitter was getting very erratic time next to TD ... which averaged out to less than three minutes per game. And for weeks prior to the trades and signings, Pop had already given up on Duncan and Splitter; it only made an appearances if there was foul trouble or injury.

In the playoffs, the only chance Splitter is going to play with Duncan is if Pop does it to match a big lineup. IMO, that has been the case all season and remains the case. So really, I don't think Splitter's situation has changed enough to say his role got bigger or small.

Overall though, there's no doubt that the bigman situation is better than it's been all season. While I want Duncan and Splitter together as much as anyone, having the option to turn to Diaw or smallball with Jack is better than living or dying with Bonner and Blair.



Disagree that Pop is a "pecking order" coach. Nazr hopped to the front of the line back in 2005 even though he didn't even enter the rotation until April. Even Glenn Robinson got run in the postseason after signing in the final few days of the regular season. In 2006, Finley immediately became a Pop favorite -- even ahead of champions like Horry and Barry. In 2008, Kurt Thomas started playoff games even though he was acquired at the trade deadline. In 2009, Drew Gooden had a large run down the stretch of the season.

If you want to go back further, Pop benched AJ and Elliott for two newbies in Terry Porter and Danny Ferry back in 2001.

Pop sometimes makes the wrong decisions on who to play but I disagree it's because he believes in a pecking order.

Why did Pop pull the it's not fair to team nonsense last season. It seems like he has something personal against Splitter. Like you said guys have been able to come in and start over the existing players.

[Obstructed_View]

I don't understand why Bonner is your sole scapegoat for this? Why not Blair? Why not Dice last year? They also shared plenty of court time with Tim and they were also the reasons people thought the team was weak in the frontcourt.

First of all, the conversation seems to be about Bonner. Second, you aren't posting advanced stats about how great Dice and Blair were. Third, Dice is gone. Fourth, Bonner is the one that Pop started for a season and still plays too much, particularly as a big off the bench in favor of a better player.

[Obstructed_View]

BTW, can someone refresh my memory on this whole "not fair to the team" thing that Pop supposedly said? This quote becomes more legendary the more it's recited.

[roycrikside]

Tiago Splitter says hi from the bench. Ian Mahinmi says hi from the NBA finals.

The difference between Tiago and Bonner in the playoffs last year was 1.5 points per 100 possessions. As I recall, the Spurs lost the three games at Memphis by a lot more than 1.5 points each.

Also, the difference between Bonner and Tiago offensively was more than 1.5 points per 100 possessions (try 5.2) and NOT in the direction that favors your argument, pal.

As hard as it is for you to accept, Tiago was not the second coming of Bill Russell during his 50 playoff minutes last year.

[therealtruth]

It's absolutely mind boggling that the Matt Bonner debate is still going on after 2+ years of epic choking and softness.

Guys like Hedo, Mase, and RJ were let go after their poor playoff performances, meanwhile this ginger fuck managed to get a contact extension. Even Bruce Bowen was traded when his skills began to decline.

Pop now actually has two vastly superior basketball players / bigmen in Tiago and Diaw and people are still making excuses for Pop on why Tiago is not getting enough of time and Diaw is probably gonna be left out of the rotation.

It's comical that people who watched Darrell Arthur bend Bonner over a chair repeatedly last year are still willing to give this proven choker and loser a chance over guys like Tiago/Boris.

How come we never had this discussion about Horry but we have this debate over his replacement, Bonner? I think part of it is because Horry was able to affect the game in more ways than one. He wasn't just a 3pt specialist. Also stats couldn't always fully reflect his impact on a game.

[TD 21]

Still don't like Danny Green as a starter. He's too inconsistent and relies too much on streaky play to be a starter. He serves best as a bench player and an energizer who can come in a wreck havoc on the opponents bench and or unsuspecting starters.

I like Green, but I have no idea why he continues to start either. This was the perfect game to re-insert Ginobili into the starting lineup in perpetuity. They had two days off, they had a practice, yet Green, arguably the worst perimeter rotation player, continues to start. It makes no sense.

As far as Diaw's rebounding, that was my biggest concern with signing him initially. But so far, he's pulling down roughly 19% of defensive rebounds. He was at roughly 17% with the Bobcats, but even if he regresses to that, he'd still be better than Blair and Bonner. Blair is still an elite offensive rebounder, but that's not enough of a reason to continue to play him over Diaw. This is an ultra efficient and explosive offense as is. The extra possessions are a luxury, not a necessity.

[TheSkeptic]

Don't let it bother you too much. 228 had it under her user name in the form of a Spur and most people still thought she was a dude.

Seriously? :lol Thanks. I'll keep that in mind.


Why did Pop pull the it's not fair to team nonsense last season. It seems like he has something personal against Splitter. Like you said guys have been able to come in and start over the existing players.

Wasn't this about proving a point to RC and justifying the Bonner contract at the same time?

[roycrikside]

First of all, the conversation seems to be about Bonner. Second, you aren't posting advanced stats about how great Dice and Blair were. Third, Dice is gone. Fourth, Bonner is the one that Pop started for a season and still plays too much, particularly as a big off the bench in favor of a better player.

Bonner is not a starter, not that it matters either way. My point is when critics pointed to the Spurs weakness in the frontcourt last year, they weren't specifically talking about Bonner. They were talking about all the C-PFs on the team as a whole. And they were right, because in the playoffs they were all poor.

The difference is Bonner (and to a degree, Splitter) are the only ones who played at their regular season level offensively. The other three suffered at both ends.

[Mugen]

I don't understand why Bonner is your sole scapegoat for this? Why not Blair? Why not Dice last year? They also shared plenty of court time with Tim and they were also the reasons people thought the team was weak in the frontcourt.

Blair got benched last year by Pop. Pop doesn't have the man crush on Blair that he has for Bonner. Blair has low BBIQ and will ultimately be benched by Pop, i have no worries about that.

Dice was 37 years old going up against a prime Z-Bo and Marc Gasol and is also a proven playoff performer/defender.

Matt Bonner was getting his shit pushed in by Darrell Arthur on one end, while passing up open shots when guards closed out on him at the other end. He was getting time over a Euroleague MVP and solid defensive presence in Tiago. Tiago has already proven this season that with extended time, he is unquestionably the 2nd best big on the team.

Matt Bonner wasn't the sole reason why they lost but it's laughable that he's still getting significant mins. over Splitter. I've never fully blamed Bonner because he is what he is, a one trick pony in the NBA who can't even do that when it counts. Pop has always deserved the most blame for the Bonner situation and it's not even close.

[therealtruth]

I like Green, but I have no idea why he continues to start either. This was the perfect game to re-insert Ginobili into the starting lineup in perpetuity. They had two days off, they had a practice, yet Green, arguably the worst perimeter rotation player, continues to start. It makes no sense.

Ginobili needs to start. He's capable of going on 10-0 runs by himself. No need to get down or even and then allow him to do his magic.

[Obstructed_View]

The difference between Tiago and Bonner in the playoffs last year was 1.5 points per 100 possessions. As I recall, the Spurs lost the three games at Memphis by a lot more than 1.5 points each.

Also, the difference between Bonner and Tiago offensively was more than 1.5 points per 100 possessions (try 5.2) and NOT in the direction that favors your argument, pal.

As hard as it is for you to accept, Tiago was not the second coming of Bill Russell during his 50 playoff minutes last year.

You know, 'pal', it's not my fault you picked a fucking retarded argument to try to defend, and that you continue to defy what everyone saw with their own eyes by quoting bad stats and worse hypberbole (lol Bill Russell). It's far further from hyperbole to say that Tiago was the best player for the Spurs against Memphis despite not having any run with the team. Mahinmi and Splitter would both have been a thousand times better against the Grizzlies' front line. There's simply not any way you don't know this. Splitter's value at getting the opposing team into foul trouble was a huge factor in even keeping the series close.

[TheSkeptic]

The difference between Tiago and Bonner in the playoffs last year was 1.5 points per 100 possessions. As I recall, the Spurs lost the three games at Memphis by a lot more than 1.5 points each.

Also, the difference between Bonner and Tiago offensively was more than 1.5 points per 100 possessions (try 5.2) and NOT in the direction that favors your argument, pal.

As hard as it is for you to accept, Tiago was not the second coming of Bill Russell during his 50 playoff minutes last year.

:wow ...I don't even...


How come we never had this discussion about Horry but we have this debate over his replacement, Bonner? I think part of it is because Horry was able to affect the game in more ways than one. He wasn't just a 3pt specialist. Also stats couldn't always fully reflect his impact on a game.

Agreed. I always admired Horry's versatility and his ability to make big plays. Put simply, he was a player that knew how to win.

For myself, I had assumed that Pop was going to accept Horry's uniqueness and find another strategy. I never dreamed of the Finley/Bonner/Bowen fiasco yet here we are.

[roycrikside]

How come we never had this discussion about Horry but we have this debate over his replacement, Bonner? I think part of it is because Horry was able to affect the game in more ways than one. He wasn't just a 3pt specialist. Also stats couldn't always fully reflect his impact on a game.

Horry was practically the Spurs secret weapon in 2003, as a Laker. He also wasn't of much use in 2006 (check out how little Pop played him against Dallas) or 2008.

Even in 2007, he helped against Denver and Phoenix, but didn't offer much against Utah or Cleveland.

[Mugen]

BTW, can someone refresh my memory on this whole "not fair to the team" thing that Pop supposedly said? This quote becomes more legendary the more it's recited.

That was Pop's excuse last year for not giving Tiago more playing time in the regular season last year.

[therealtruth]

Bonner is not a starter, not that it matters either way. My point is when critics pointed to the Spurs weakness in the frontcourt last year, they weren't specifically talking about Bonner. They were talking about all the C-PFs on the team as a whole. And they were right, because in the playoffs they were all poor.

The difference is Bonner (and to a degree, Splitter) are the only ones who played at their regular season level offensively. The other three suffered at both ends.

Agree. Bonner gets too much criticism for being a role player but when he plays the amount of minutes he does it's inevitable. When Dice suffered in a stinger in game 6 who did Pop turn to? Bonner. I would have taken a partially injured Dice over him. By the time Dice came back into the game Randolph's confidence was sky high and he was on fire.

[Mugen]

Horry was practically the Spurs secret weapon in 2003, as a Laker. He also wasn't of much use in 2006 (check out how little Pop played him against Dallas) or 2008.

Even in 2007, he helped against Denver and Phoenix, but didn't offer much against Utah or Cleveland.

I have a strange feeling that you are trying to lump Horry in the same class as Matt Bonner.

There is no way you could be that dense so I assume that's not what you're doing.

[Obstructed_View]

Bonner is not a starter, not that it matters either way.
Yet he was a starter. Go figure.


My point is when critics pointed to the Spurs weakness in the frontcourt last year, they weren't specifically talking about Bonner. They were talking about all the C-PFs on the team as a whole. And they were right, because in the playoffs they were all poor.
Matt Bonner got more minutes than any big not named Tim Duncan last year. Go figure.


The difference is Bonner (and to a degree, Splitter) are the only ones who played at their regular season level offensively. The other three suffered at both ends.
That's what you keep saying, but it doesn't matter. The REAL point of the conversation is that Bonner was abused so badly on the other end of the floor that even if he'd hit his shots consistently to his average (he didn't), he wasn't helpful to the team.

If your point in bringing up offensive stats is that he's not a "playoff choker" then you probably have a point, and perhaps we're talking past each other. My point is that he's in over his head for what he's asked to do, and has been for several years. There is, and always have been, better options for his role and his minutes, and his role should be reduced to what he does best: Shoot lots of threes in a row when he's hot. If you're trying to make the case that he should be getting the same minutes and role in the playoffs, even at the expense of Splitter, then I'm going to disagree.

[therealtruth]

I have a strange feeling that you are trying to lump Horry in the same class as Matt Bonner.

There is no way you could be that dense so I assume that's not what you're doing.

Even in series Horry didn't impact too much that was probably much more than Bonner ever did. The best way for Bonner to impact a series positively is to not play much. He's just not playoff basketball material.

[Muser]

So if he was 8-of-18 instead of 6-of-18, you wouldn't be bitching. Got it. I didn't realize those two shots were the difference in our three road losses at Memphis.

The whole team sucked against Memphis so I'm not gonna rip on Matt too much, what excuse do you have for his shooting percentages dipping south in the playoffs over his career? .370 is awful for a player who's only skill is shooting.

[roycrikside]

You know, 'pal', it's not my fault you picked a fucking retarded argument to try to defend, and that you continue to defy what everyone saw with their own eyes by quoting bad stats and worse hypberbole (lol Bill Russell). It's far further from hyperbole to say that Tiago was the best player for the Spurs against Memphis despite not having any run with the team. Mahinmi and Splitter would both have been a thousand times better against the Grizzlies' front line. There's simply not any way you don't know this. Splitter's value at getting the opposing team into foul trouble was a huge factor in even keeping the series close.

You accuse me of using hyperbole and then say Splitter would've been "a thousand times better" than Bonner. Got it.

The Spurs were outscored by 8.5 per 100 possessions with Tiago on the floor against Memphis. I don't know how much simpler I can express that to you.

With Bonner, they were outscored by 4.7 per 100 possessions.

That's a 3.8 point difference AND Bonner has the disadvantage of having a much larger sample size in this comparison.

For the 1,000 time, people blaming Bonner are ignoring the forest for the trees. The Spurs lost because of, in order 1. Duncan 2. Tony 3. Jefferson 4. McDyess 5. Hill

[benefactor]

I've lost count the number of times the goalposts have moved.

[Muser]

And yeah, Bonner got bent over by every single Memphis big man. That was some of the worst defending i've ever seen by a player, even by Matt Bonner standards.

[Obstructed_View]

That was Pop's excuse last year for not giving Tiago more playing time in the regular season last year.

Thank you. I was more looking for a link to an article with the quote. Couldn't find one when I googled it. There are a lot of mentions in comments about it, and on ST of course.

[roycrikside]

The whole team sucked against Memphis so I'm not gonna rip on Matt too much, what excuse do you have for his shooting percentages dipping south in the playoffs over his career? .370 is awful for a player who's only skill is shooting.

Don't know what stats you're looking at. Actually the numbers are worse. He's a career 39% shooter in the playoffs and 32% from 3. :lol

If you want to rip him for choking in the playoffs, you'd be a lot better served to point out 2009 and 2010, tbh.

[Obstructed_View]

You accuse me of using hyperbole and then say Splitter would've been "a thousand times better" than Bonner. Got it.
That's the point. Thanks for catching on.


The Spurs were outscored by 8.5 per 100 possessions with Tiago on the floor against Memphis. I don't know how much simpler I can express that to you.

You really, really need to stop quoting stats about this since you're using them to argue against having Splitter getting minutes last season. Just makes you look stupid. I don't know how much simpler I can express that to you.

[roycrikside]

I've lost count the number of times the goalposts have moved.

Is it so hard to admit the starters whose names don't end in -obili sucked? Anybody who can look at it objectively would come to that conclusion pretty easily.

[Muser]

Matt Bonner is a career .414 3 point shooter in the regular season and a .323 3 point shooter in the playoffs. That's a pretty big fall don't you think?

.370 was his best percentage in the playoffs in 2010, which like I said for a one dimensional player who brings nothing else to the table is pretty bad.

[roycrikside]

You really, really need to stop quoting stats about this since you're using them to argue against having Splitter getting minutes last season. Just makes you look stupid. I don't know how much simpler I can express that to you.


Then go blame Pop for being a crappy coach. Clearly your blame lies with him.

[Mugen]

Then go blame Pop for being a crappy coach. Clearly your blame lies with him.

Warmer...

[roycrikside]

You really, really need to stop quoting stats about this since you're using them to argue against having Splitter getting minutes last season. Just makes you look stupid. I don't know how much simpler I can express that to you.

I didn't blame Splitter for losing the series. I blamed the starters. Pay attention. Again, if you wanted Tiago to play more, then your issue is with Pop, not Bonner.

[TheSkeptic]

I didn't blame Splitter for losing the series. I blamed the starters. Pay attention. Again, if you wanted Tiago to play more, then your issue is with Pop, not Bonner.

You yourself have acknowledged that there were several reasons why the Spurs lost. Is it so wrong for people to be mad at the starters, Pop, and Bonner?

[therealtruth]

Thank you. I was more looking for a link to an article with the quote. Couldn't find one when I googled it. There are a lot of mentions in comments about it, and on ST of course.
http://blog.mysanantonio.com/spursnation/2010/12/07/patience-a-virtue-for-splitter-blair/

[roycrikside]

You yourself have acknowledged that there were several reasons why the Spurs lost. Is it so wrong for people to be mad at the starters, Pop, and Bonner?

Bonner was like their 8th most important player and deserves the 8th most blame. Oddly, I don't think that's the ratio of blame he's getting.

When you all start the "Tim and Tony have to play much better these playoffs" thread, I'll take note.

Bonner was like 5% of the problem and gets 50% of the blame.

[benefactor]

Is it so hard to admit the starters whose names don't end in -obili sucked? Anybody who can look at it objectively would come to that conclusion pretty easily.
I don't think anyone is saying they weren't bad. It's not just about last year. He's never been reliable in the playoffs. Ever.

[TheSkeptic]

Bonner was like their 8th most important player and deserves the 8th most blame. Oddly, I don't think that's the ratio of blame he's getting.

When you all start the "Tim and Tony have to play much better these playoffs" thread, I'll take note.

Bonner was like 5% of the problem and gets 50% of the blame.

I'd wager that most people are cool with Bonner (not his playoff production or anything). What's not okay is the minutes he's playing at the expense of a taller, more dependable, superior basketball player in Splitter and quite recently Diaw. So some of Bonner's hate is really for Pop but it's been a little bit misdirected.

Due to his disappointing playoff performances vs his regular season work, they're not wrong to be mad.

[angelbelow]

Bonner shot .464 in the regular season last year and .480 in the playoffs...

His true shooting percentage, factoring in threes, was .617 in the regular season, compared to .646 in the playoffs....

Bonner averaged around 20 minutes both in the playoffs and in the regular season. But the difference in production was clear.

Reg season: 7.3 pts, 3.6 rpg, .457 3pt% .457% fg%
Playoffs: 6.3 pts, 3.2 rpg, .333 3pt%, .480fg%

Again, the difference in most categories are quite small except for 3 point shooting. To me, that drop off was disappointing to see because that was offsetting his poor rebounding and defense in the regular season.


The area where he dipped was from .457 in 3s to .333 in the playoffs, but come on, we're talking about a sample size of 18 shots. If you think the best "clutch" shooters in the world didn't have 6-for-18 stretches during the playoffs, I don't know what to tell you.

Well no shit, everyone has poor shooting streaks and poor playoff series. The difference is that guys like Duncan, Ginobili, and Parker built their reputation on playoff basketball and are consistent over the course of their careers. My confidence in them doesn't waver after one poor performance. Guys like Hill (whose always had confidence issues), Blair, or RJ on the other hand, was always worrisome. People like to talk about playoff basketball being too small of a sample size. But the bottom line is that the small sample size argument is true for all players. Yet we're able to see a separation between the men and the boys. Additionally, Bonner's career 3pt shooting % is only .323 and a lowly .39% overall.


As for the people who think Bonner turned into a turnover prone butter fingers in the playoffs, his turnover rate went from 6.7 in the regular season to 3.3 in the playoffs....

I agree, I never think of Bonner and turnovers being in the same sentence. I got nervous when he introduced his dribble drive but so far hes been very consistent with that move.



Again, his so-called "choking" came on the defensive end. On offense, he was the same ol' Matt Bonner.


Again, I disagree. Bonner's role on offense is to make 3s and contribute to spacing. He failed to do that for multiple playoffs now. As OV stated, when he can't make his 3s, the rest of his flaws become magnified.

I don't solely blame Bonner for our early playoff exit, but he was one of the more disappointing players for me to watch.

[Spurs da champs]

Honestly Stephen Jackson was shit yesterday as well as Green and I don't understand Pop not playing Diaw.

[Obstructed_View]

I didn't blame Splitter for losing the series.

Nobody said you did, strawman. You're defending Bonner getting more PT than Splitter, though, and when you point out how much worse the defense is with Splitter on the floor, you really do come dangerously close to what you just said you didn't do.



Again, if you wanted Tiago to play more, then your issue is with Pop, not Bonner.
And nobody's said exactly that more times than I have. I'm not the one going and digging up stats to try to justify Bonner's minutes. You are. If you want to make any of those other cases, make them. What you did instead was reply to a post I made in response to someone else showing me stats of why Matt Bonner was so good against Memphis. Again, sorry you picked such a shitty horse to back in this race.

[Obstructed_View]

As OV stated, when he can't make his 3s, the rest of his flaws become magnified.

My contention continues to be that the more he's on the floor, the more his flaws become magnified. When he's getting regular rotation minutes where a playoff team can scout him and exploit him possession after possession, he simply can't make enough shots to make up for it. Pop came up with a way to keep teams from exploiting Jacque Vaughn on offense, and Bonner's a bigger liability in the playoffs defensively than JV ever was.

[Manudona]

Bonner was like their 8th most important player and deserves the 8th most blame. Oddly, I don't think that's the ratio of blame he's getting.

When you all start the "Tim and Tony have to play much better these playoffs" thread, I'll take note.

Bonner was like 5% of the problem and gets 50% of the blame.

I agree with you Roycrikside, it would have been completely agree if you had said that Bonner gets MORE than 50% of the blame.

[roycrikside]

Nobody said you did, strawman. You're defending Bonner getting more PT than Splitter, though, and when you point out how much worse the defense is with Splitter on the floor, you really do come dangerously close to what you just said you didn't do.



I didn't say the defense was worse with Splitter on the floor. It wasn't. It was 1.5 points per 100 possessions better.

What I said was they got outscored worse with Splitter on the floor.

If you want to look at it another way it's this:

Difference in offense w/Bonner vs. w/Splitter > difference in defense w/Splitter vs. w/Bonner.

Hope that helps.

[ElNono]

Splitter's minutes were always basically going to equal 48 minutes minus Tim Duncan's minutes. Before the trades and signings, Splitter was getting very erratic time next to TD ... which averaged out to less than three minutes per game. And for weeks prior to the trades and signings, Pop had already given up on Duncan and Splitter; it only made an appearances if there was foul trouble or injury.

No doubt. That's entirely on Pop though, and how he sees Splitter and/or his focus on offense.


In the playoffs, the only chance Splitter is going to play with Duncan is if Pop does it to match a big lineup. IMO, that has been the case all season and remains the case. So really, I don't think Splitter's situation has changed enough to say his role got bigger or small.

Well, I disagree. Remove Diaw and if Blair pulled a Casper act like last season, small ball would've been first in line, and Tiago second in line. Now Diaw would be ahead of Tiago for those situations.
Now, I don't have a problem with Diaw, but I much rather see Tiago out there than him, tbh.


Overall though, there's no doubt that the bigman situation is better than it's been all season. While I want Duncan and Splitter together as much as anyone, having the option to turn to Diaw or smallball with Jack is better than living or dying with Bonner and Blair.

But, again, that's on Pop being Pop. There's no reason why we would need to die with any of that instead of, say, Tiago.


Disagree that Pop is a "pecking order" coach. Nazr hopped to the front of the line back in 2005 even though he didn't even enter the rotation until April.

You're obviously omitting that Nazr hopped to the front line after Rasho was injured...


Even Glenn Robinson got run in the postseason after signing in the final few days of the regular season.

Who was signed due to Devin Brown going down with an injury...


In 2006, Finley immediately became a Pop favorite -- even ahead of champions like Horry and Barry.

Finley, I agree, but he was a special case as Matty is. Pop just loved the guy. He loved him so much, Fin ended up robbing Hill minutes when Hill should've been on the floor.


In 2008, Kurt Thomas started playoff games even though he was acquired at the trade deadline.

Thomas replaced Elson, who was shipped out on the trade... we also played the Shaq's Suns and Thomas was the only guy that could guard him not named Tim.


In 2009, Drew Gooden had a large run down the stretch of the season.

But barely played in the postseason...


If you want to go back further, Pop benched AJ and Elliott for two newbies in Terry Porter and Danny Ferry back in 2001. Pop sometimes makes the wrong decisions on who to play but I disagree it's because he believes in a pecking order.

I don't think he's stubborn enough not to change his selection of players if they're sucking (see RJ, Blair last playoffs). But going in, I do think his picks are mostly based on pecking order than anything else. I almost expect it these days.

[ElNono]

Tbh, Pop not even attempting to play Duncan and Splitter together for the last two years is one of the dumbest things he's ever done. Other than that, I think Pop has been a great coach this year. But that flaw in strategy is so glaring that it's difficult to look past it.

I mean, at some point in the last two seasons, why not make it a point to play Splitter a lot next to Duncan for about a week to see if it works? I'm not even saying to start Splitter necessarily ... just play them together for a few games in a row to get a better feel on whether or not it's an avenue worth exploring further.

Pop's reluctance to even try it so damn baffling . . .

Agree

[maverick1948]

Tiago Splitter says hi from the bench. Ian Mahinmi says hi from the NBA finals.

Ian had nothing to do with the Mav's getting the finals.

[roycrikside]

I don't think anyone is saying they weren't bad. It's not just about last year. He's never been reliable in the playoffs. Ever.

I can buy that argument. I'm just saying compared to 2009 and 2010, last year's postseason was actually a step in the right direction for poor Matt. And Pop says he's playing his best ball ever now, so I guess I'm trying to be optimistic for this postseason.

I've made my preferences clear. If it was up to me Bonner would be the 4th big man and Blair would be out of the rotation.

[ElNono]

oh, btw, and it's not all negative... I like the moves the team made. Switching RJ for Jack is a fairly big fix on the perimeter...

[roycrikside]

Tbh, Pop not even attempting to play Duncan and Splitter together for the last two years is one of the dumbest things he's ever done. Other than that, I think Pop has been a great coach this year. But that flaw in strategy is so glaring that it's difficult to look past it.

I mean, at some point in the last two seasons, why not make it a point to play Splitter a lot next to Duncan for about a week to see if it works? I'm not even saying to start Splitter necessarily ... just play them together for a few games in a row to get a better feel on whether or not it's an avenue worth exploring further.

Pop's reluctance to even try it so damn baffling . . .

There's nothing to be baffled about. He's stubborn as a mule. He's never gotten over himself and he's surrounded by a yes man coaching staff. All that being said, I think Pop may try the Splitter-Duncan combo against LA or Memphis, if it comes to that. I don't think match-up wise it makes much sense against other teams.

When it comes to people who play on the high post or the wings though, like Dirk or even Gasol and Randolph for the most part, I think Pop would be more confident that Diaw could guard them out there than Splitter or Tim. He wants those guys to protect the basket and be the main shot blocker/rebounder.

[angelbelow]

Thomas replaced Elson, who was shipped out on the trade... we also played the Shaq's Suns and Thomas was the only guy that could guard him not named Tim.


Further, Thomas was suddenly benched against the Lakers. Two issues that I remember from that series was struggling to score and being out rebounded. Thomas may not have helped offensively but rebounding is a different story.

Maybe Odom and Gasol were a bad match up for Duncan and Thomas... but I don't see how Oberto or Horry were any better. Horry was pretty dreadful after the Phoenix series.

[maverick1948]

There's nothing to be baffled about. He's stubborn as a mule. He's never gotten over himself and he's surrounded by a yes man coaching staff. All that being said, I think Pop may try the Splitter-Duncan combo against LA or Memphis, if it comes to that. I don't think match-up wise it makes much sense against other teams.

When it comes to people who play on the high post or the wings though, like Dirk or even Gasol and Randolph for the most part, I think Pop would be more confident that Diaw could guard them out there than Splitter or Tim. He wants those guys to protect the basket and be the main shot blocker/rebounder.


You haven't gotten yet have you Roycrikside? If Timmy goes 1 for 12 and Bonner goes 5 for 6 on 3pt shots and the Spurs lose, it was Bonner's fault for letting someone score and not making that 3 pt shot. It matters little what Bonner does, the people on this board are going to slam him. He blocks out on rebounds, he makes the extra pass to the open man, he makes 3's and drives the bucket, he draws fouls and lately he has blocked a few shots and against Indiana, he even cause an adjustment on a shot from behind, he plays defense and then is blamed when Tiago leaves his man open to chase a guard who then gets an easy assist on Tiago's man's basket. YOU cant win with these guys. Bonner is a convienent scapegoat for their outlet to blame.

[benefactor]

Shut up, grey faggot.

[TheSkeptic]

You haven't gotten yet have you Roycrikside? If Timmy goes 1 for 12 and Bonner goes 5 for 6 on 3pt shots and the Spurs lose, it was Bonner's fault for letting someone score and not making that 3 pt shot. It matters little what Bonner does, the people on this board are going to slam him. He blocks out on rebounds, he makes the extra pass to the open man, he makes 3's and drives the bucket, he draws fouls and lately he has blocked a few shots and against Indiana, he even cause an adjustment on a shot from behind, he plays defense and then is blamed when Tiago leaves his man open to chase a guard who then gets an easy assist on Tiago's man's basket. YOU cant win with these guys. Bonner is a convienent scapegoat for their outlet to blame.

What's your point?

Nobody and I mean *nobody* is disputing Bonner's regular season effectiveness. In fact, nobody's blaming him for playing too many minutes. That's mostly on Pop.

The truth of the matter is that Bonner is getting minutes ahead of and at the expense of better players who could clearly help the team in the playoffs. Since no decently defending team is going to leave Bonner wide open beyond the arc, the team will essentially be playing him for his defense and rebounding. That won't fly and everybody who understands basketball knows it.

When you have a Spanish League MVP sitting on the bench who is taller, better, stronger, and faster, that just makes people feel even worse about the situation. Tiago is a player. Bonner is a specialist. No matter how hard you try, you can't use them the same way successfully.

So you see, it's not that people are blaming Bonner for losing the series. In most cases they're just pointing out his limitations and getting mad because we all know that this team has the pieces to win it all.

What you're seeing is fans who are losing confidence in the coach's ability to maximize the players he has.

[Ice009]

Spurs have to hope Bonner can do something he's never done before: hit shots consistently in the playoffs, especially in crunch time. Because right now, despite all of the (what appears to be obvious) analysis, the history shows Pop is going to roll with Bonner. It's not that you can't win in the playoffs with Bonner - it's that you can't win with how Bonner has performed in the playoffs vs the regular season.


I don't even recall Bonner hitting a shot in the 4th quarter of last night's game? I don't think he can even hit shots consistently in the 4th quarter of regular season games. I'd like to see stats on his 4th quarter shooting in the regular season. The fact that I can't recall many makes in those situations is what makes it so tough to even think about him playing in the playoffs.


I didn't say the defense was worse with Splitter on the floor. It wasn't. It was 1.5 points per 100 possessions better.

What I said was they got outscored worse with Splitter on the floor.

If you want to look at it another way it's this:

Difference in offense w/Bonner vs. w/Splitter > difference in defense w/Splitter vs. w/Bonner.

Hope that helps.

I'd actually like to know how many times the guy Bonner was guarding scored on him during the Memphis series.

[024]

pop not playing splitter kind of reminds me of stan van gundy never playing gortat next to dwight howard. a gortat/howard frontcourt would have been so dominant but for some reason van gundy never put gortat next to howard.

[roycrikside]

I could be wrong (would hardly be the first time) but it seems to me that Pop knows nothing he can do will make this team that good defensively, so he's just gonna throw a hail mary that he can outscore everyone.

Like TimVP has pointed out numerous times, the Stephen Jackson trade was more about economics than basketball, but at least you know Jack won't turn down open threes and he can also earn an occasional trip to the FT line, so overall he'll be more useful than RJ was. Similarly, Diaw and Mills are both guys who are better offensively than defensively.

I think Pop wants to put lineups out there where regardless of who's playing all 5 guys can score and won't be afraid to shoot and take his chances that way, hoping that the efficiency and smart play of the big three down the stretch of games will be enough.

Maybe he's saying something different behind closed doors, but there have been too many games where the Spurs have allowed over 105 pts and over 50% shooting and Pop has told the media that he's happy with the defense for me to think he gives a shit about it. All he cares about on that end of the floor is we rebound well and don't allow a ton of points in the paint. If guys hit open jump shots he doesn't care.

[Ice009]

pop not playing splitter kind of reminds me of stan van gundy never playing gortat next to dwight howard. a gortat/howard frontcourt would have been so dominant but for some reason van gundy never put gortat next to howard.

That's an interesting comparison. Didn't Gortat totally beast in the games that Dwight didn't play where he was out due to suspension in the playoffs?

It's kind of hard to look into that situation though because of Jameer Nelson returning for the finals. I didn't watch that finals series closely so I don't know if it was a lack of size or Jameer being reinserted back into the starting five that threw the team out of whack.

You could also look at the previous teams the Magic had to beat going into the finals, Boston without KG and also Cleveland who didn't really have any great big men. Their small ball strategy seemed to work, but then they had to play the Lakers who had size and they got beaten easily. For those of you that watched, could the Magic have used more size in that series?

[TheSkeptic]

That's an interesting comparison. Didn't Gortat totally beast in the games that Dwight didn't play where he was out due to suspension in the playoffs?

Yeah. I would actually argue that he's a better positional defender than Howard. Excellent player with pretty solid fundamentals. My memory is pretty fuzzy though but I think I can see why Gortat/Howard didn't play together.

I don't think either of them can shoot and I'm not sure either of them can comfortably guard the perimeter. They're both clearly C's so I get where Van Gundy was coming from somewhat although he probably should've tried that line-up more often.

I'm going off of impressions though so I could be wrong. I don't really think that this Duncan/Splitter situation is quite the same thing although it's possible Pop thinks it is.

[angelbelow]

That's an interesting comparison. Didn't Gortat totally beast in the games that Dwight didn't play where he was out due to suspension in the playoffs?


Both Gortat and Howard are liabilities on offense when double teamed. The Orlando offense was basically 4 shooters spreading the floor for Dwight Howard. Playing Gortat over Lewis or Hedo would have been devastating for their offense and goes against everything that Stan was preaching. IMO, that is why we never saw a Howard and Gortat twin tower combination. Additionally, Gortat's improvement on offense this season is a symbiotic relationship with Steve Nash.


You haven't gotten yet have you Roycrikside? If Timmy goes 1 for 12 and Bonner goes 5 for 6 on 3pt shots and the Spurs lose, it was Bonner's fault for letting someone score and not making that 3 pt shot. It matters little what Bonner does, the people on this board are going to slam him. He blocks out on rebounds, he makes the extra pass to the open man, he makes 3's and drives the bucket, he draws fouls and lately he has blocked a few shots and against Indiana, he even cause an adjustment on a shot from behind, he plays defense and then is blamed when Tiago leaves his man open to chase a guard who then gets an easy assist on Tiago's man's basket. YOU cant win with these guys. Bonner is a convienent scapegoat for their outlet to blame.

Lol you're just as bad as a blind Bonner hater. Why don't you try reading the thread before charging head first to Bonner's defense.

[therealtruth]

Bonner improved offensively in the playoffs last year but he's still not a winning player. I still think this quote from last year sums it up best:


To top it all off . . .

When the Spurs have won in the playoffs, they've done it IN SPITE of Bonner's garbage play.

They beat Dallas last year when Bonner for the series shot 35% from the field and 31% from 3pt. He was -16 for the series. He failed every way, he bricked open threes, bricked contested threes, and passed up open threes.

When it matters most, the postseason, he's never helped the Spurs win anything, ever.

He's been carried by the rest of the team.

How Pop became convinced that it wouldn't be fair to the team to sit Bonner at the end of the bench where he belongs is one of the great mysteries.

We need Ludden to write a Jack McCallum-style book about this team. Call it "Spreading the Floor: the Spurs Road to Failure".

[Ice009]

Both Gortat and Howard are liabilities on offense when double teamed. The Orlando offense was basically 4 shooters spreading the floor for Dwight Howard. Playing Gortat over Lewis or Hedo would have been devastating for their offense and goes against everything that Stan was preaching. IMO, that is why we never saw a Howard and Gortat twin tower combination. Additionally, Gortat's improvement on offense this season is a symbiotic relationship with Steve Nash.

I've seen Gortat hit the jumper in Phoenix off of a Nash pass, but don't know if he had that in the arsenal when he was in Orlando.

Did you watch the finals series with the Lakers? Did the Lakers size beat the Magic? Was that the main reason for the loss or was it Jameer throwing the whole team out of whack by coming back?

Edit : Also, does anyone have Bonner's stats in 4th quarter and OT games this season?

[Obstructed_View]

I didn't say the defense was worse with Splitter on the floor. It wasn't. It was 1.5 points per 100 possessions better.

What I said was they got outscored worse with Splitter on the floor.

If you want to look at it another way it's this:

Difference in offense w/Bonner vs. w/Splitter > difference in defense w/Splitter vs. w/Bonner.

Hope that helps.

No, you're still coming off as a dumbass. Splitter came in with no time with anyone, no wind and still managed to be the most effective big on the team in the playoffs. You're splitting hairs on tiny differences compared to a Bonner who had several years with the team and acting like your stats mean something. They don't. Splitter has proven to be a far better player than Bonner on both ends of the floor.

[roycrikside]

No, you're still coming off as a dumbass. Splitter came in with no time with anyone, no wind and still managed to be the most effective big on the team in the playoffs.

Based on what?



You're splitting hairs on tiny differences compared to a Bonner who had several years with the team and acting like your stats mean something. They don't. Splitter has proven to be a far better player than Bonner on both ends of the floor

Based on what? If you just write things without showing me some proof, what substance is there?

[angelbelow]

I've seen Gortat hit the jumper in Phoenix off of a Nash pass, but don't know if he had that in the arsenal when he was in Orlando.

Did you watch the finals series with the Lakers? Did the Lakers size beat the Magic? Was that the main reason for the loss or was it Jameer throwing the whole team out of whack by coming back?

Edit : Also, does anyone have Bonner's stats in 4th quarter and OT games this season?

Too hard to judge because he didn't take many jump shots with the Magics but I'd imagine that it wasn't a consistent weapon of his. In the 2009 Nba playoffs, Gortat took 81% of his shots from inside (averaged 2.4 pts) and 19% jumps (averaged .4 pts).

I did watch some of the Laker Magic finals with some buddies, but was too distracted or indifferent to pay attention. But it was the clear that the Lakers were the superior team in skill, depth, preparation, talent and coaching. They were able to lock down the 4 perimeter shooters and have big enough bodies to defend Dwight 1v1. No surprise that they Lakers won so easily.

I think Timvp posted some good stuff regarding Bonner's clutch performance during the regular season. (A few pages back in this thread)

[TJastal]

The same exact thing was said last year as an excuse for Pop not playing Tiago and Tim together.

Then Pop had to scramble and put in Tiago in Game 4 when he finally realized Tim was getting abused out there by a bigger and more physical frontline and Bon Bon began to shrink away.

It was the exact scenario that many people had been warning against when the Spurs were racking up Ws in the regular season while not giving more time to a Tim/Tiago pairing when Pop had EVERY opportunity to do so last year. The same is happening this year. Pop's been great at managing minutes and the rotation but his failure once again to integrate a Tiago/Tim lineup is absolutely inexcusable.

I honestly can't understand how Popfans can still make the same old excuses for Pop not playing Tiago after witnessing the Memphis series last year.

I strongly disagree here.

History tells us having dual 7-foot defenders in the paint has always been such a drag and recipe for failure, especially for the spurs. Plus there could be a multitude of other reasons, too. Let's give Pop the benefit of the doubt, here. Could be Tim is allergic to Tiago's aftershave and Tiago can't switch brands because it was a gift from a special girl. And he's like, all supersticious and shit. Or Tiago cheated with Timmy's wife and when Tim confronted Tiago in the practice there was a huge fight and Pop had to drag them apart. Now Pop has to keep em separated on the court. See how that works? Listen to spectator, man. Since we just don't know the details we should assume there is something Pop knows that we don't.

[z0sa]

I woke up in a panic after I realized I forgot Danny Green.

:rollin

[TJastal]

I don't even recall Bonner hitting a shot in the 4th quarter of last night's game? I don't think he can even hit shots consistently in the 4th quarter of regular season games. I'd like to see stats on his 4th quarter shooting in the regular season. The fact that I can't recall many makes in those situations is what makes it so tough to even think about him playing in the playoffs.



I'd actually like to know how many times the guy Bonner was guarding scored on him during the Memphis series.

Bonner's guy was the one everybody else was sagging off their own men to help against. Of course he'll probably look good in that respect.

[jiggy_55]

Well this is a huge issue then because if you don't play your clear cut best players on both ends (Tiago) over known playoff chokers (Bonner) & question marks (Blair), the Spurs could be in significant trouble and if Tiago's already ridiculously low minutes go down in the playoffs because Tim's go up, the team will suffer on both ends.

This.

Tim's minutes will significantly increase in the Playoffs, the Spurs cannot afford for Splitter's minutes to also significantly decrease. Timmy got 35mpg last year against Memphis and his minutes will practically be the same this postseason. Playing Splitter only 13mpg rather than the minutes he deserves such as a more reasonable 25mpg (or more) will be a killer for us when we need defense int he 4th quarter of games and against bigger teams such as LAL or MEM.

[maverick1948]

Shut up, grey faggot.


Great response "faggot" Cant dispute the post so you call me a name.


What's your point?

Nobody and I mean *nobody* is disputing Bonner's regular season effectiveness. In fact, nobody's blaming him for playing too many minutes. That's mostly on Pop.

The truth of the matter is that Bonner is getting minutes ahead of and at the expense of better players who could clearly help the team in the playoffs. Since no decently defending team is going to leave Bonner wide open beyond the arc, the team will essentially be playing him for his defense and rebounding. That won't fly and everybody who understands basketball knows it.

When you have a Spanish League MVP sitting on the bench who is taller, better, stronger, and faster, that just makes people feel even worse about the situation. Tiago is a player. Bonner is a specialist. No matter how hard you try, you can't use them the same way successfully.

So you see, it's not that people are blaming Bonner for losing the series. In most cases they're just pointing out his limitations and getting mad because we all know that this team has the pieces to win it all.

What you're seeing is fans who are losing confidence in the coach's ability to maximize the players he has.

If you understood basketball, you would know why Pop doesnt play Tim/Tiago together. They play different styles of basketball. Having them on the court together results in a better defense but far worse offense as they get in each others way. Also, we have not been deep in the front court in years. We have depended on Duncan to carry the load. When the season started we had 4 bigs. Pop has used them to the advantage of the TEAM. Not to individuals. Everyone points out Tim/Tiago great defense, but Blair/Bonner cant happen. How do you prevent it from happening? Ok play Tiago and Tim 38 to 40 mins a game and see what they have left in the playoffs. You will wear them out completely. I'm not defending Bonner not being great in the playoffs, I just saying he is blamed by so many. Timmy had an ankle sprain 2 weeks before the playoffs and had a poor playoff run. Manu broke his arm in last game of the year. We were at a disadvantage from the start. Manu breaks his hand this season early, we go on winning night after night without him. Who took up the slack? TP, TD and a host of bench players including Bonner.


.



Lol you're just as bad as a blind Bonner hater. Why don't you try reading the thread before charging head first to Bonner's defense.

Blind Bonner haters just say he is the problem. I say it is a team thing. If Bonner scores 20 and Timmy, Manu or Tony has 22, the glory goes to them and Bonner gets one line on here saying he missed a defensive assignment. That is the problem, too many armchair coaches spouting off and not watching the game.

[benefactor]

Great response "faggot" Cant dispute the post so you call me a name.

Nothing to dispute, tbh. Just a bunch of faggy nonsense. That's why you got called a faggot, faggot.

[Obstructed_View]

Based on what?



Based on what? If you just write things without showing me some proof, what substance is there?

:bang

Very sorry, but you have obviously not watched the Spurs play at all the last several years. Get back to me when you actually see a few games. If you feel like wanking with stats to try to prove your points, go find someone else to make the case to.

[roycrikside]

:bang

Very sorry, but you have obviously not watched the Spurs play at all the last several years. Get back to me when you actually see a few games. If you feel like wanking with stats to try to prove your points, go find someone else to make the case to.

LOL.

"Your honor, if you can't tell my client is innocent just by looking at him, then I don't know what to tell you. It's pretty obvious."

BEST. LAWYER. EVER.

Here's some free advice. Next time you want to make some stupid, baseless generalities about the Spurs, just replaced the words "Matt Bonner" with "DeJuan Blair" and you'll probably have a lot better chance of being closer to the truth, as long as you're not talking about superficial things like race or appearance and are actually referring to things that happen on a basketball floor.

[freetiago]

lololllllololol people really still think tim/tiago cant play together
tim has a mid range game
weve seen
tim/blair
tiago/blair

tiago is light years ahead of blair and duncan has no problems playing with that black hole
pop doesnt even have a problem playing tiago with blair who have the same game
but he refuses to put tiago/tim together for at least 5 minutes a game
pop has lost it
theres no other explanation
i couldnt believe it when we played sacremento
they brought out their midget center and pop countered by bringing out our fat midget center
didnt even bring out tiago or tim to score at will vs him

even more lol at people who think pop is trying to hide splitter or stop him from getting injuries
playing sporadic minutes is how injuries happen, if his minutes were consistent he would be use to playing and wouldnt have to stop and go so much
he also got injured because griffin jumped on him, not because hes injury prone
and pop cant hide splitter
it just takes 1 day of scouting after a playoff game or even before to see what splitter can do

[Obstructed_View]

LOL.

"Your honor, if you can't tell my client is innocent just by looking at him, then I don't know what to tell you. It's pretty obvious."

BEST. LAWYER. EVER.

Here's some free advice. Next time you want to make some stupid, baseless generalities about the Spurs, just replaced the words "Matt Bonner" with "DeJuan Blair" and you'll probably have a lot better chance of being closer to the truth, as long as you're not talking about superficial things like race or appearance and are actually referring to things that happen on a basketball floor.

Oh, and strawman is back. Comparing watching a basketball game to the burden of proof in a court of law. Excellent. So that would make you the bitch with the blindfold.

[TheSkeptic]

If you understood basketball, you would know why Pop doesnt play Tim/Tiago together. They play different styles of basketball. Having them on the court together results in a better defense but far worse offense as they get in each others way. Also, we have not been deep in the front court in years. We have depended on Duncan to carry the load. When the season started we had 4 bigs. Pop has used them to the advantage of the TEAM. Not to individuals. Everyone points out Tim/Tiago great defense, but Blair/Bonner cant happen. How do you prevent it from happening? Ok play Tiago and Tim 38 to 40 mins a game and see what they have left in the playoffs. You will wear them out completely. I'm not defending Bonner not being great in the playoffs, I just saying he is blamed by so many. Timmy had an ankle sprain 2 weeks before the playoffs and had a poor playoff run. Manu broke his arm in last game of the year. We were at a disadvantage from the start. Manu breaks his hand this season early, we go on winning night after night without him. Who took up the slack? TP, TD and a host of bench players including Bonner.


You have got to be kidding me.

Blair/Bonner doesn't have to happen because Diaw's with the team now. Super versatile, played all 5 positions, etc. Nobody would have to play Tiago and Tim 38-40 unless there was overtime.

Again, nobody says that the Spurs would've won with different moves but probably the biggest factor in the Grizzlies series was how their frontcourt pushed ours around. A healthy Manu would've overcome that but it still would've been a glaring weakness.

Besides, didn't Timvp have stats showing that the Tim/Tiago frontcourt has been getting better defensively and offensively as of late?

Tim can shoot the midrange shot, Tiago can operate in the low block, the pick and roll with either big is another option that's available. It's more a matter of coming up with set plays and letting the bigs do work on the other end. We know that they're not a perfect fit which is why they need time to work out the kinks.

As we saw last year, the playoffs is not the time to get these two time to figure each other out. Also, although he's a big minutes kind of player, Tiago seems like a guy who would have to adjust to playing a lot of extra minutes. We're almost at the end of the regular season and there's been no adjustments in spite of last year's fiasco. That's why people are getting nervous.

And no, it's not okay to depend on Duncan to play entire frontcourts by himself. Not at this age. If you want him to be sharp in the fourth quarter, you have to give him a capable frontcourt running mate. Blair and Bonner aren't it. Diaw is better but has more weaknesses as a defender.

And since when has anybody said Bonner was a horrible regular season player? Like I said, what's making people mad is that:

1. We KNOW he'll underperform in the playoffs and that

2. He'll be getting too much time in spite of the fact that

3. There's better players on the bench

That's not really Bonner's fault and most people have acknowledged that. Just ignore the trolls who say otherwise.



Blind Bonner haters just say he is the problem. I say it is a team thing. If Bonner scores 20 and Timmy, Manu or Tony has 22, the glory goes to them and Bonner gets one line on here saying he missed a defensive assignment. That is the problem, too many armchair coaches spouting off and not watching the game.

Look. Pop is a great coach. While I'm sure there are a few coaches who could've won at least 1 championship with Tim Duncan, D. Rob, and company, I doubt there's very many who would've been able to win 4. I'm not being sarcastic here. 2003 was one of the most masterful coaching jobs I have ever seen.

That said, that doesn't mean Pop has no weaknesses. I'm fine with losing if I know the team has tried everything to win. Losing while not playing your best players...not so much.

Especially since if AceProfits is to be believed, there aren't any *basketball reasons* for Pop to be handling his bigs like this.

[timvp]

Here's my bottomline on Bonner:

During the regular season, he's a damn useful player. Overall, he's much more valuable in the regular season than Robert Horry ever was. Fantastic floor spacer, makes smart decisions, is able to handle the ball a little bit and can almost always find open spaces. On defense, he's a really good pick-and-roll defender, can defend the post against most players and he's actually not a liability when it comes to rebounding because he boxes out so well. No one wants to admit it -- even Bonner fans wouldn't admit it for fear of being tarred and feathered -- but when it comes to the regular season, no player is as directly responsible for wins outside the Big 3 than Bonner. It sounds crazy to say but there is indisputable evidence built up over the years that proves Bonner is a regular season stud.

In the playoffs, I can live with Bonner with two caveats: 1) He doesn't start games 2) He doesn't finish games. If Pop wants to throw him out there for other minutes, I can grin and bear it.

However, what I absolutely can't accept is Bonner playing clutch minutes in the playoffs. I've watched every second of every minute he has played as a Spur and I have never seen anything that indicates to me that Bonner is a player built to thrive in pressure situations. Whether I use subjective observations or objective data analysis, the conclusion is always the same: Bonner shouldn't play in tight situations.

Subjectively, Bonner reacts to pressure by thinking too much. Thus, his natural reactions are replaced by slower, more hesitant reactions. Pressure causes him to pass up shots, not find open teammates as swiftly and he loses confidence in his dribbling completely. On defense, he becomes much more spastic (and thus fouls more), he is more wary about drifting out on the perimeter (and thus his pick-and-roll defense suffers) and his ability to box out decreases (for reasons I haven't yet figured out).

Objectively, the numbers paint an even bleaker picture of Bonner. In the regular season during Bonner's time in San Antonio, the Spurs have outscored opponents by 7.7 points per 100 possessions with Bonner on the court -- which is 6th best in the entire NBA during that time frame. However, in the playoffs, the Spurs have been OUTSCORED by 10.9 points per 100 possession with Bonner on the court. That's an unbelievable swing of 18.6 points per 100 possessions. Bonner goes from the 6th best in the entire NBA during the regular season to 5th worst in the entire NBA during the playoffs.

Even if you want to just trust his traditional stats, they all head in a negative direction. During the playoffs, he scores less, assists less, shoots worse, shoots less, turns it over more, steals less, blocks less ... on and on and on.

Perhaps I could ignore my subjective observations if the objective stats painted a different picture. Perhaps I could ignore stats if I observed reasons for hope. But when the subjective lines up perfectly with the objectively, I have no reason not to consider it fact. Matt Bonner is not built for pressure. Quality player, useful in most situations, good teammate, great human being, not someone you want to play when your entire season is on the line.

[jjktkk]

My hope is that with more bigman options in Diaw and Splitter, Pop will have Bonner on a short leash, much like RJ getting the quick hook in last years playoffs, when he wasn't producing.

[Bruno]

IMO, Pop faces a moral dilemma. He knows, at least I hope so, that the rotation needs to change for Spurs to have a shot at winning the title but it isn't easy to do so because Spurs have played so great. For example, putting Blair, who is the starter of a team that is on a 24-5 run, in the doghouse seems like a crazy move to do but it's likely the right one to do.

[jjktkk]

IMO, Pop faces a moral dilemma. He knows, at least I hope so, that the rotation needs to change for Spurs to have a shot at winning the title but it isn't easy to do so because Spurs have played so great. For example, putting Blair, who is the starter of a team that is on a 24-5 run, in the doghouse seems like a crazy move to do but it's likely the right one to do.

I don't know if Pop will remove Blair from the starting lineup, but like Jefferson in the playoffs last year, I believe Pop will give Blair the quick hook if he isn't producing.

[Mugen]

I just want Tiago to be afforded the same opportunities to succeed/fail that Pop has given Bonner the last 3+ years. He's more than earned it.

[rmt]

1. tiago should not get more PT - everyone on this forum (including me) was bitching and moaning about pop not giving him more PT; then, pop made all of us look ridiculous when tiago had 2 different injuries while playing limited minutes. idk if the guy is injury prone or just unlucky, but my perception is that 16 minutes of all-out effort, combined with 32 from timmy, makes us very good at the C position.

3. down the stretch, i would like the spurs to keep the 2nd seed in the west and not try to have a better record than chi, mia, okc. ideally (for me), the spurs win the next 4 games, then play their starters every 3rd day - including the home games vs the fakes. i know that the team is deep, but the run down the stretch is ridiculous: 13 games in 19 nights IIRC. i value health more than the location of the 7th game in a series.

Going by the logic in #1, Manu also shouldn't play more than 16 minutes since he's even more injury-prone than Splitter. Mark my words, should they meet LAL or MEM in the playoffs, Pop's going to regret not playing TD/Splitter together. You'd think he would learn from his mistakes last year.

I disagree with sitting Diaw and SJax. It's not like they've been playing a lot all season for their previous teams. Pop should be playing them as much as possible to integrate them with the team and get them used to playing with the "crunch time" line-up (hopefully, TD, TP, Manu, SJax and Splitter/Diaw [depending on matchup]). Hopefully, the NBA Finals or WCF won't be when they're playing together for the first time. All this rest does no good if they're not used to playing with each other at the end of [important] games.

[Paranoid Pop]

Here's my bottomline on Bonner:

During the regular season, he's a damn useful player. Overall, he's much more valuable in the regular season than Robert Horry ever was. Fantastic floor spacer, makes smart decisions, is able to handle the ball a little bit and can almost always find open spaces. On defense, he's a really good pick-and-roll defender, can defend the post against most players and he's actually not a liability when it comes to rebounding because he boxes out so well. No one wants to admit it -- even Bonner fans wouldn't admit it for fear of being tarred and feathered -- but when it comes to the regular season, no player is as directly responsible for wins outside the Big 3 than Bonner. It sounds crazy to say but there is indisputable evidence built up over the years that proves Bonner is a regular season stud.

In the playoffs, I can live with Bonner with two caveats: 1) He doesn't start games 2) He doesn't finish games. If Pop wants to throw him out there for other minutes, I can grin and bear it.

However, what I absolutely can't accept is Bonner playing clutch minutes in the playoffs. I've watched every second of every minute he has played as a Spur and I have never seen anything that indicates to me that Bonner is a player built to thrive in pressure situations. Whether I use subjective observations or objective data analysis, the conclusion is always the same: Bonner shouldn't play in tight situations.

Subjectively, Bonner reacts to pressure by thinking too much. Thus, his natural reactions are replaced by slower, more hesitant reactions. Pressure causes him to pass up shots, not find open teammates as swiftly and he loses confidence in his dribbling completely. On defense, he becomes much more spastic (and thus fouls more), he is more wary about drifting out on the perimeter (and thus his pick-and-roll defense suffers) and his ability to box out decreases (for reasons I haven't yet figured out).

Objectively, the numbers paint an even bleaker picture of Bonner. In the regular season during Bonner's time in San Antonio, the Spurs have outscored opponents by 7.7 points per 100 possessions with Bonner on the court -- which is 6th best in the entire NBA during that time frame. However, in the playoffs, the Spurs have been OUTSCORED by 10.9 points per 100 possession with Bonner on the court. That's an unbelievable swing of 18.6 points per 100 possessions. Bonner goes from the 6th best in the entire NBA during the regular season to 5th worst in the entire NBA during the playoffs.

Even if you want to just trust his traditional stats, they all head in a negative direction. During the playoffs, he scores less, assists less, shoots worse, shoots less, turns it over more, steals less, blocks less ... on and on and on.

Perhaps I could ignore my subjective observations if the objective stats painted a different picture. Perhaps I could ignore stats if I observed reasons for hope. But when the subjective lines up perfectly with the objectively, I have no reason not to consider it fact. Matt Bonner is not built for pressure. Quality player, useful in most situations, good teammate, great human being, not someone you want to play when your entire season is on the line.

Maybe even Pop realize this and that's why he closed his playoff rehearsal against Indiana with Blair.

The big question is why the fuck did we go after Diaw if our PF rotation is set in stone. To rest the turd towers just before the PO I guess :(.

[TheSkeptic]

Maybe even Pop realize this and that's why he closed his playoff rehearsal against Indiana with Blair.

The big question is why the fuck did we go after Diaw if our PF rotation is set in stone. To rest the turd towers just before the PO I guess :(.

:depressed

If it wasn't for the whole mentally checking out fiasco from last time, Blair would be one of my favourite players. Even then the truth is he shouldn't be closing games against legit playoff teams and contenders.

Tiago's a player who I feel deserves a chance to build up his confidence, get into a rhythm, and even fail at times if he has to. He's not going to be nearly as comfortable as we need him to be at this rate and we're not making the most of his abilities as it stands right now.

However, Blair's defense has thrown me for the loop. If Tiago can't get a shot at the rotation, then I would rather have the team start Diaw in the playoffs.

As an aside, is this the longest Grades thread ever?

[letmk]

Going by the logic in #1, Manu also shouldn't play more than 16 minutes since he's even more injury-prone than Splitter. Mark my words, should they meet LAL or MEM in the playoffs, Pop's going to regret not playing TD/Splitter together. You'd think he would learn from his mistakes last year.

Not saying I totally agree with the following argument, but it might be because Manu got injured in front of TV which could be seen as accidents, while oftentimes nobody sees Tiago got injured.

So Theoretically Manu could avoid injury by playing less audaciously, but Tiago could only stay healthy by playing less.

[therealtruth]

IMO, Pop faces a moral dilemma. He knows, at least I hope so, that the rotation needs to change for Spurs to have a shot at winning the title but it isn't easy to do so because Spurs have played so great. For example, putting Blair, who is the starter of a team that is on a 24-5 run, in the doghouse seems like a crazy move to do but it's likely the right one to do.

It's sort of like last season when he wanted to start Dice for better defense.

[TheSkeptic]

It's sort of like last season when he wanted to start Dice for better defense.

He should just do it. The team is more important than Blair's feelings imo.

[Bruno]

It's sort of like last season when he wanted to start Dice for better defense.

Pop benched too Blair last year because he was fat. It surely helped him to do that move.

[rmt]

Here's my bottomline on Bonner:

During the regular season, he's a damn useful player. Overall, he's much more valuable in the regular season than Robert Horry ever was.

However, what I absolutely can't accept is Bonner playing clutch minutes in the playoffs. I've watched every second of every minute he has played as a Spur and I have never seen anything that indicates to me that Bonner is a player built to thrive in pressure situations. Whether I use subjective observations or objective data analysis, the conclusion is always the same: Bonner shouldn't play in tight situations.

Subjectively, Bonner reacts to pressure by thinking too much. Thus, his natural reactions are replaced by slower, more hesitant reactions. Pressure causes him to pass up shots, not find open teammates as swiftly and he loses confidence in his dribbling completely. On defense, he becomes much more spastic (and thus fouls more), he is more wary about drifting out on the perimeter (and thus his pick-and-roll defense suffers) and his ability to box out decreases (for reasons I haven't yet figured out).

Objectively, the numbers paint an even bleaker picture of Bonner. In the regular season during Bonner's time in San Antonio, the Spurs have outscored opponents by 7.7 points per 100 possessions with Bonner on the court -- which is 6th best in the entire NBA during that time frame. However, in the playoffs, the Spurs have been OUTSCORED by 10.9 points per 100 possession with Bonner on the court. That's an unbelievable swing of 18.6 points per 100 possessions. Bonner goes from the 6th best in the entire NBA during the regular season to 5th worst in the entire NBA during the playoffs.

Even if you want to just trust his traditional stats, they all head in a negative direction. During the playoffs, he scores less, assists less, shoots worse, shoots less, turns it over more, steals less, blocks less ... on and on and on.

Perhaps I could ignore my subjective observations if the objective stats painted a different picture. Perhaps I could ignore stats if I observed reasons for hope. But when the subjective lines up perfectly with the objectively, I have no reason not to consider it fact. Matt Bonner is not built for pressure. Quality player, useful in most situations, good teammate, great human being, not someone you want to play when your entire season is on the line.

Horry and Bonner - 2 players with diametrically different attitudes. Yet Pop would have one try to replace the other. On the one hand, there's Bonner who for all his valedictorian smarts shrivels under pressure. Then there's Horry who sleep-walks through the regular season but thrives under pressure having fun and with a smile on his face. Guess that's what having a child with chromosome problems does - after all, it's only a game and he gets to go home to his family and friends after.

[angelbelow]

Based on what?



Based on what? If you just write things without showing me some proof, what substance is there?

Maybe everyone is right, you are an elaborate troll. Sometimes you have decent takes but other times you act like a dumb instigator.

If you watch the fucking playoff series you'll see how much of a liability Bonner was. Even if he hit his shots at a good percentage he was still doing more harm than good. Expecting Splitter to make a difference after using him so sparingly in the regular season is foolish. In fact, Splitter only played 3 games out of the series and averaged 16 minutes. The numbers may suggest that Bonner was more valuable that series but if we played the series again with the same 2011 lineup, would you actually play more of Bonner?

Again, Bonner wasn't the biggest problem, but he was a problem. His w/s48 at .159 was the highest on the team, but that statistical is supposed to be an estimate to how a player contributes to wins. Guess what, we got thrashed the Grizzles. That statistic is meaningless when the results the don't come.

Also, if you don't think Splitter is the more skilled and high potential player compared to Bonner on both ends than you're a dumbass.

[ElNono]

Here's my bottomline on Bonner:

During the regular season, he's a damn useful player. Overall, he's much more valuable in the regular season than Robert Horry ever was. Fantastic floor spacer, makes smart decisions, is able to handle the ball a little bit and can almost always find open spaces. On defense, he's a really good pick-and-roll defender, can defend the post against most players and he's actually not a liability when it comes to rebounding because he boxes out so well. No one wants to admit it -- even Bonner fans wouldn't admit it for fear of being tarred and feathered -- but when it comes to the regular season, no player is as directly responsible for wins outside the Big 3 than Bonner. It sounds crazy to say but there is indisputable evidence built up over the years that proves Bonner is a regular season stud.

In the playoffs, I can live with Bonner with two caveats: 1) He doesn't start games 2) He doesn't finish games. If Pop wants to throw him out there for other minutes, I can grin and bear it.

However, what I absolutely can't accept is Bonner playing clutch minutes in the playoffs. I've watched every second of every minute he has played as a Spur and I have never seen anything that indicates to me that Bonner is a player built to thrive in pressure situations. Whether I use subjective observations or objective data analysis, the conclusion is always the same: Bonner shouldn't play in tight situations.

Subjectively, Bonner reacts to pressure by thinking too much. Thus, his natural reactions are replaced by slower, more hesitant reactions. Pressure causes him to pass up shots, not find open teammates as swiftly and he loses confidence in his dribbling completely. On defense, he becomes much more spastic (and thus fouls more), he is more wary about drifting out on the perimeter (and thus his pick-and-roll defense suffers) and his ability to box out decreases (for reasons I haven't yet figured out).

Objectively, the numbers paint an even bleaker picture of Bonner. In the regular season during Bonner's time in San Antonio, the Spurs have outscored opponents by 7.7 points per 100 possessions with Bonner on the court -- which is 6th best in the entire NBA during that time frame. However, in the playoffs, the Spurs have been OUTSCORED by 10.9 points per 100 possession with Bonner on the court. That's an unbelievable swing of 18.6 points per 100 possessions. Bonner goes from the 6th best in the entire NBA during the regular season to 5th worst in the entire NBA during the playoffs.

Even if you want to just trust his traditional stats, they all head in a negative direction. During the playoffs, he scores less, assists less, shoots worse, shoots less, turns it over more, steals less, blocks less ... on and on and on.

Perhaps I could ignore my subjective observations if the objective stats painted a different picture. Perhaps I could ignore stats if I observed reasons for hope. But when the subjective lines up perfectly with the objectively, I have no reason not to consider it fact. Matt Bonner is not built for pressure. Quality player, useful in most situations, good teammate, great human being, not someone you want to play when your entire season is on the line.

Ding, ding, ding... and if you want to dig deeper, regular season and playoffs are two different types of basketball games... Slower pace, each possession carries more weight, each game is much more valuable, tactics are completely different... what works for the marathon of the regular season don't necessarily always work for the crunch that's the postseason...

And the stakes are so high, and little things like HCA are so valuable, that unless you're up 3-0 in a series, you really can't throw a game to see if the guy shows up.

[spurs10]

At least for myself, this 5 days rest for Diaw is what has me most perplexed. Thanks timvp for the analysis of regular season Matt vs. playoff Matt. If the only reason Diaw was brought on board was injury insurance, then his talents will have been wasted. I'm just not so sure we'll be seeing a 5 man big rotation in the playoffs though.
16 minutes per guys not named Tim is possible, I imagine, give or take a few minutes. Is there any precedent to anything like that. Again seeing Tiago, or Diaw, play many less minutes than B&B is just not promising.

[Mel_13]

At least for myself, this 5 days rest for Diaw is what has me most perplexed. Thanks timvp for the analysis of regular season Matt vs. playoff Matt. If the only reason Diaw was brought on board was injury insurance, then his talents will have been wasted. I'm just not so sure we'll be seeing a 5 man big rotation in the playoffs though.
16 minutes per guys not named Tim is possible, I imagine, give or take a few minutes. Is there any precedent to anything like that. Again seeing Tiago, or Diaw, play many less minutes than B&B is just not promising.

We definitely won't see a 5 big man rotation in the playoffs. We'll see 3.5 or 4.

That's why Diaw didn't play against Indiana and Bonner didn't play against the Kings. Look for one of the five bigs to sit each game.

[TheSkeptic]

At least for myself, this 5 days rest for Diaw is what has me most perplexed. Thanks timvp for the analysis of regular season Matt vs. playoff Matt. If the only reason Diaw was brought on board was injury insurance, then his talents will have been wasted. I'm just not so sure we'll be seeing a 5 man big rotation in the playoffs though.
16 minutes per guys not named Tim is possible, I imagine, give or take a few minutes. Is there any precedent to anything like that. Again seeing Tiago, or Diaw, play many less minutes than B&B is just not promising.

To me the logical thing to do would be to cut Bonner/Blair out of the rotation altogether. I feel like there's enough 3 point shooting that we don't really need Bonner out there and Tiago/Diaw will likely produce better than Blair. If these trends continue, then this issue right here will force the Spurs out of the playoffs prematurely. There's not a doubt in my mind.

[TD 21]

IMO, Pop faces a moral dilemma. He knows, at least I hope so, that the rotation needs to change for Spurs to have a shot at winning the title but it isn't easy to do so because Spurs have played so great. For example, putting Blair, who is the starter of a team that is on a 24-5 run, in the doghouse seems like a crazy move to do but it's likely the right one to do.

I think he's looking for an excuse/right time to do it. It's obvious he's not a big Blair fan and other than being too passive, Diaw is the type of PF he likes next to Duncan. But like you said, the team is on a tear, so making that move now wouldn't make much sense, particularly because it's not like there's a massive gap between the two players. He also probably doesn't want to risk mentally losing Blair, not with 16 games in 23 days upcoming. But the instant they struggle for more than a couple of games, unless Blair is really playing well, I think a switch it coming. It's possible that switch may not come until their backs are up against the wall in the playoffs though. But at some point, it's coming.

[TheSkeptic]

I think he's looking for an excuse/right time to do it. It's obvious he's not a big Blair fan and other than being too passive, Diaw is the type of PF he likes next to Duncan. But like you said, the team is on a tear, so making that move now wouldn't make much sense, particularly because it's not like there's a massive gap between the two players.

He also probably doesn't want to risk mentally losing Blair, not with 16 games in 23 days upcoming. But the instant they struggle for more than a couple of games, unless Blair is really playing well, I think a switch it coming. It's possible that switch may not come until their backs are up against the wall in the playoffs though. But at some point, it's coming.

I get this line of reasoning, but I think that making the switch too late will be a problem for the guy who's getting Blair's spot. I'd be a lot more comfortable making the change before facing the brink of elimination so that guys can get used to playing together. Visions of last year and all.

[therealtruth]

Pop's going to stick with Bonner/Blair. They have plenty of corporate knowledge, are proven playoff performers, and play great defense unlike Splitter or Diaw.

[benefactor]

LJ...capping the thread...screwing down tight.

[TD 21]

I get this line of reasoning, but I think that making the switch too late will be a problem for the guy who's getting Blair's spot. I'd be a lot more comfortable making the change before facing the brink of elimination so that guys can get used to playing together. Visions of last year and all.

I agree, but knowing how Pop operates, I wouldn't be shocked if he waited until that point. That's exactly what he did last season, when it came to Splitter.

If he had his druthers, the ideal scenario would probably see Blair going down for about 3 games (not too many, because they need all hands on deck for this 16-in-23 nonsense upcoming) and Diaw stepping in and playing extremely well. Then that gives him an excuse to go with him over Blair going forward. Even though he'd have technically still made the switch, it could be passed off as "we're just continuing to go with what's been working; we've done the same thing with Green continuing to start (even though that's strictly to keep Ginobili's minutes down)" and not as an indictment of Blair's play.

[Mel_13]

I agree, but knowing how Pop operates, I wouldn't be shocked if he waited until that point. That's exactly what he did last season, when it came to Splitter.

If he had his druthers, the ideal scenario would probably see Blair going down for about 3 games (not too many, because they need all hands on deck for this 16-in-23 nonsense upcoming) and Diaw stepping in and playing extremely well. Then that gives him an excuse to go with him over Blair going forward. Even though he'd have technically still made the switch, it could be passed off as "we're just continuing to go with what's been working; we've done the same thing with Green continuing to start (even though that's strictly to keep Ginobili's minutes down)" and not as an indictment of Blair's play.

as Rasho made way for Nazr in 2005..

[roycrikside]

If you watch the fucking playoff series you'll see how much of a liability Bonner was. Even if he hit his shots at a good percentage he was still doing more harm than good.

Nearly everyone on the team, with the exception of Blair and Ginobili, did more harm than good in that series. That's the whole point of the plus/minus stats. Neither Bonner nor Splitter lost that series, Tim and Tony, and to a lesser extent Dice, RJ and Hill did. If you think switching Bonner and Splitter's minutes in that series would've made a difference, there's really nothing in the numbers to support your argument. Whatever positive last year's Splitter would've added to the defense, he would've taken away on the other end.



Expecting Splitter to make a difference after using him so sparingly in the regular season is foolish.

THEN WHAT THE FUCK IS YOUR POINT? Invent a time machine, learn hypnosis and force Pop to play Tiago more last year. Brilliant.



The numbers may suggest that Bonner was more valuable that series but if we played the series again with the same 2011 lineup, would you actually play more of Bonner?

Outside of keeping Manu out of that Phoenix game, I'm not sure what they could've done differently. Randolph and Conley played out of their minds and Tim and Tony did not meet the challenge. It really is that simple. Tim had one good first half in Game 1 and then offered relatively nothing.

I've said the same thing a million times, and nobody can seem to understand: Neither Bonner nor Splitter had much to do with the outcome of that series. Tim and Tony had to play better and they didn't. Their stars outplayed our stars.




Again, Bonner wasn't the biggest problem, but he was a problem. His w/s48 at .159 was the highest on the team, but that statistical is supposed to be an estimate to how a player contributes to wins. Guess what, we got thrashed the Grizzles. That statistic is meaningless when the results the don't come.

The stat said the 7th most important player on the team played relatively well, but since we lost, it's a dumb stat and evidence the player sucks. Got it.

Here's something for you to wrap your brain around... the fact that Bonner led the team in w/s48 is proof that the stars majorly underachieved. Bonner ISN'T SUPPOSED TO LEAD THE TEAM in w/s48. If everything goes according to plan, he SHOULD BE 5th or 6th. You are in effect blaming him for doing better than other players.




Also, if you don't think Splitter is the more skilled and high potential player compared to Bonner on both ends than you're a dumbass.

I never said anything about who I think is better or worse for 2012. We're talking about last year's series. Yes, I think Splitter is a better defender than Bonner, but not by as much of a margin as most of ST does, I'm sure.

As far as offense goes, it's pretty close. True shooting wise, they're both pretty close to the same, super efficient. Splitter obviously helps by getting to the line more and he's a much more effective rebounder and even a slightly better passer.

However, ultimately what makes him and Bonner a wash is the fact that Splitter is a turnover machine. He turns the ball over more than 4x as often as Bonner does, so that negates most of his other advantages over Bonner.

What I do know is that even in 2012 the Spurs score more points and allow less with Bonner on the floor than Splitter, though they're both been assets at both ends.

Again, if you are looking for the Spurs to improve, benching Bonner isn't the answer. Your best bet is to bench Blair.

[roycrikside]

Here's my bottomline on Bonner:

LJ Bonner scouting report.


I don't necessarily disagree with anything you wrote.

Here are my two questions:

1) Compared to the relative disasters of 2009 and 2010, wouldn't you agree that his play in 2011 was, all things considered, a step in the right direction for Bonner considering how poorly he played in those playoffs?

2) I've never suggested that Bonner played well in the 2011 playoffs or that I would like him to see clutch-time minutes in the 2012 playoffs. I just want to know, in your opinion, how much blame Bonner deserves for losing last year's series.

My contention, which I think the numbers show clearly, is that the lion's share of the blame goes, in order, to 1) Tony 2) Tim 3) Dice 4) RJ 5) Hill.

Agree or disagree?

[therealtruth]

as Rasho made way for Nazr in 2005..

Blair needs to take one for the team and come up with some injury.

Seriously if Pop isn't willing to close with TD and Splitter he has to at least consider Tiago for defense since he is the best pick and roll defender bigman. He has the speed to switch on the smaller player and still bother their shot. I still remember Grant Hill exposing TD's lack of mobility in the pick and roll in during the Suns' sweep in '10.

[Mel_13]

Blair needs to take one for the team and come up with some injury.

Seriously if Pop isn't willing to close with Tiago and Splitter he has to at least consider Tiago for defense since he is the best pick and roll defender bigman. He has the speed to switch on the smaller player and still bother their shot. I still remember Grant Hill exposing TD's lack of mobility in the pick and roll in during the Suns' sweep in '10.

:lol

That ain't happening.

[BRs.Ganso]

:lol

That ain't happening.


:lol:lol:lol:lmao

[TheSkeptic]

THEN WHAT THE FUCK IS YOUR POINT? Invent a time machine, learn hypnosis and force Pop to play Tiago more last year. Brilliant.


I've said the same thing a million times, and nobody can seem to understand: Neither Bonner nor Splitter had much to do with the outcome of that series. Tim and Tony had to play better and they didn't. Their stars outplayed our stars.


Here's something for you to wrap your brain around... the fact that Bonner led the team in w/s48 is proof that the stars majorly underachieved. Bonner ISN'T SUPPOSED TO LEAD THE TEAM in w/s48. If everything goes according to plan, he SHOULD BE 5th or 6th. You are in effect blaming him for doing better than other players.


I never said anything about who I think is better or worse for 2012. We're talking about last year's series. Yes, I think Splitter is a better defender than Bonner, but not by as much of a margin as most of ST does, I'm sure.

As far as offense goes, it's pretty close. True shooting wise, they're both pretty close to the same, super efficient. Splitter obviously helps by getting to the line more and he's a much more effective rebounder and even a slightly better passer.

However, ultimately what makes him and Bonner a wash is the fact that Splitter is a turnover machine. He turns the ball over more than 4x as often as Bonner does, so that negates most of his other advantages over Bonner.

What I do know is that even in 2012 the Spurs score more points and allow less with Bonner on the floor than Splitter, though they're both been assets at both ends.

Again, if you are looking for the Spurs to improve, benching Bonner isn't the answer. Your best bet is to bench Blair.

I've tried to stay out of this but I think you're wrong.

First because a lot of Splitter's turnovers are offensive fouls on moving screens, passing in traffic, etc. That's stuff that gets fixed with playing time imo so no they're not a wash.

As for this whole "Spurs score more points with Bonner..."

I'll just leave these threads here:

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=191051&highlight=offensive+thoughts

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192436&highlight=player+pairs

Timvp's stats match up a little bit better to what the rest of us are seeing and the stats he's using are fine imo.

And yes, benching Bonner in favour of a better player is probably going to help the team. Benching Blair in favour of Diaw or Tiago should be priority as well.

[roycrikside]

I've tried to stay out of this but I think you're wrong.

First because a lot of Splitter's turnovers are offensive fouls on moving screens, passing in traffic, etc. That's stuff that gets fixed with playing time imo so no they're not a wash.

As for this whole "Spurs score more points with Bonner..."

I'll just leave these threads here:

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=191051&highlight=offensive+thoughts

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192436&highlight=player+pairs

Timvp's stats match up a little bit better to what the rest of us are seeing and the stats he's using are fine imo.

And yes, benching Bonner in favour of a better player is probably going to help the team. Benching Blair in favour of Diaw or Tiago should be priority as well.

timvp's numbers are as of Mar. 7. The ones I used are as of Mar. 25, so take that for what it's worth. Really, if you want to use the player pairs data for your argument, as blasphemous as it sounds, it sure looks to me that the Spurs best big man combo is Splitter-Bonner together. Duncan slows down the offense to such an extent that his defensive advantages over the other two don't really make up for it (plus it's not like he plays the pick-and-roll nearly as well as those two).

[Mel_13]

I've tried to stay out of this but I think you're wrong.

First because a lot of Splitter's turnovers are offensive fouls on moving screens, passing in traffic, etc. That's stuff that gets fixed with playing time imo so no they're not a wash.

As for this whole "Spurs score more points with Bonner..."

I'll just leave these threads here:

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=191051&highlight=offensive+thoughts

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192436&highlight=player+pairs

Timvp's stats match up a little bit better to what the rest of us are seeing and the stats he's using are fine imo.

And yes, benching Bonner in favour of a better player is probably going to help the team. Benching Blair in favour of Diaw or Tiago should be priority as well.

Season to date:

Pts scored per 48:
w/Bonner: 104.20
w/Splitter: 103.32

Pts allowed per 48:
w/Bonner: 92.38
w/Splitter: 94.99

What's more interesting, at least to me, is their numbers as a duo. Splitter has played 63% of his minutes with Bonner while Bonner has played 52% of his minutes with Splitter.

As a duo:
Pts scored per 48: 106.87
Pts allowed per 48: 91.33

Splitter and Bonner have been a great pairing.

[therealtruth]

Outside of keeping Manu out of that Phoenix game, I'm not sure what they could've done differently. Randolph and Conley played out of their minds and Tim and Tony did not meet the challenge. It really is that simple. Tim had one good first half in Game 1 and then offered relatively nothing.


Conley didn't have do much in the series but take the open jumpers the Spurs were affording him because of being scared of Randolph/Gasol and pass the ball to Randolph/Gasol. I don't really consider that playing out of his mind.

Part of the reason Randolph was on fire is that Bonner/Dice couldn't force him to defend or draw fouls on him. The one guy who could, Splitter, didn't play much at power forward. Randolph saved all his energy for offense and we saw the results. Also having Bonner on him probably boosted his confidence alot.

[TheSkeptic]

Season to date:

Pts scored per 48:
w/Bonner: 104.20
w/Splitter: 103.32

Pts allowed per 48:
w/Bonner: 92.38
w/Splitter: 94.99

What's more interesting, at least to me, is their numbers as a duo. Splitter has played 63% of his minutes with Bonner while Bonner has played 52% of his minutes with Splitter.

As a duo:
Pts scored per 48: 106.87
Pts allowed per 48: 91.33

Splitter and Bonner have been a great pairing.

Ok. So I assume these are the numbers that poster was using. Interesting.

On the points allowed front I can see how that would happen though because if Bonner's not playing with Splitter he's playing with Duncan and a couple of the other starters. He's a better defender than Blair according to DPPP so that particular number would make sense to me since Duncan's a better defender around the rim/helper than Tiago.

Yeah. They have been :toast. I like Bonner fine during the regular season. He does what he's told and he plays a role that maximizes his strengths and he does it to perfection. Thing is, I care about the playoffs and I don't trust Bonner to perform when it matters.

I will admit that the staff did the right thing as far as squeezing more out of people like Blair and Bonner though.

[TheSkeptic]

timvp's numbers are as of Mar. 7. The ones I used are as of Mar. 25, so take that for what it's worth. Really, if you want to use the player pairs data for your argument, as blasphemous as it sounds, it sure looks to me that the Spurs best big man combo is Splitter-Bonner together. Duncan slows down the offense to such an extent that his defensive advantages over the other two don't really make up for it (plus it's not like he plays the pick-and-roll nearly as well as those two).

Yeah, I saw that and Mel's numbers. My mistake although I still disagree with your overall point on Bonner and Splitter being a wash.

Because Bonner is fabulous during the regular season and he's been given a role that caters to his strengths (ridiculous btw).

He won't perform like this in the playoffs whereas Duncan has a history of playing well in the post-season. Ergo, we have to give our best bigs a try. Just use the Splitter/Parker pick and roll so that Duncan can spot up for the midrange J and use maybe Green and Leonard to spread the floor otherwise.

Pop will likely have to lean on that line-up when the Spurs run into trouble anyway so they might as well get familiar with each other. To me, at least, that pairing has been looking much better on both ends as of late.

[letmk]

If not for Neal's crazy 3-pointer, we would've lost 4-1. And if you really watched the series, 4-1 is even an understatement of how we got beat by the Grizzlies.

It's not like we lost 4-3 by a last shot, say like Pistons lost to us in 05. In that situation, two teams were basically playing at the same level, and it went down to some loose balls, lucky shots or even one offense rebound. Then you might be able to say that the support from some role players didn't meet expectations.

So I agree 100% that our stars were largely outplayed by their stars is the first, second, and third biggest reason we lost. Just stop bashing role players when stars didn't perform. It does no good to anybody and anything, including this coming playoffs.

[letmk]

Some follow-up:

So if you just want to blame some specific players to feel less worse about our humiliation from last year, go for it. But if you want to talk about what out chances are this year, focus and pray for the health and performance of our star players first and foremost.

[roycrikside]

If not for Neal's crazy 3-pointer, we would've lost 4-1. And if you really watched the series, 4-1 is even an understatement of how we got beat by the Grizzlies.

It's not like we lost 4-3 by a last shot, say like Pistons lost to us in 05. In that situation, two teams were basically playing at the same level, and it went down to some loose balls, lucky shots or even one offense rebound. Then you might be able to say that the support from some role players didn't meet expectations.

So I agree 100% that our stars were largely outplayed by their stars is the first, second, and third biggest reason we lost. Just stop bashing role players when stars didn't perform. It does no good to anybody and anything, including this coming playoffs.

thank you.

[jestersmash]

If not for Neal's crazy 3-pointer, we would've lost 4-1. And if you really watched the series, 4-1 is even an understatement of how we got beat by the Grizzlies.

It's not like we lost 4-3 by a last shot, say like Pistons lost to us in 05. In that situation, two teams were basically playing at the same level, and it went down to some loose balls, lucky shots or even one offense rebound. Then you might be able to say that the support from some role players didn't meet expectations.

So I agree 100% that our stars were largely outplayed by their stars is the first, second, and third biggest reason we lost. Just stop bashing role players when stars didn't perform. It does no good to anybody and anything, including this coming playoffs.

And if Shane Battier/Zach Randolph don't hit incredibly timely clutch 3s down the stretch and if Manu had played game 1, we may have won that game and the series could have been 2-0 SA to start.

I think you're vastly exaggerating the extent to which the Grizzlies beat us. Actually, scratch "I think." You are vastly exaggerating to the extent where I'm skeptical if you even watched the series.

Memphis won both games 1 and 3 by 3 points each. That's a play here or there. That's an extra shot made (for the spurs) and a single extra possession of good defense (4 or 5 point swing), and it could've been a Spurs win.

[angelbelow]

I never said anything about who I think is better or worse for 2012. We're talking about last year's series. Yes, I think Splitter is a better defender than Bonner, but not by as much of a margin as most of ST does, I'm sure.

As far as offense goes, it's pretty close. True shooting wise, they're both pretty close to the same, super efficient. Splitter obviously helps by getting to the line more and he's a much more effective rebounder and even a slightly better passer.

However, ultimately what makes him and Bonner a wash is the fact that Splitter is a turnover machine. He turns the ball over more than 4x as often as Bonner does, so that negates most of his other advantages over Bonner.

What I do know is that even in 2012 the Spurs score more points and allow less with Bonner on the floor than Splitter, though they're both been assets at both ends.

Again, if you are looking for the Spurs to improve, benching Bonner isn't the answer. Your best bet is to bench Blair.

Haha you respond to me without the context of your stupid bait usage on OV.

Your posts have insinuated that Bonner is>= than Splitter. And I disagree with that.

Even if the stats are close now, the main point is that Splitter is the higher potential player with the superior skill set.

For the most part we have agreed through out the thread. But your posts are inconsistent. Sometimes you rate Bonner correctly and other times you hold him too highly.

Lets clear things up a bit. If you're strictly arguing about the 2011 playoffs, then the entire team played poorly including Bonner. If you're talking about this season, you would rather play Bonner more then Splitter? That's what I'm getting from your posts, correct me if I'm wrong.

For the record, I would prefer the minutes allocation to go from Duncan getting the most, to Splitter, Diaw, Bonner and Blair getting the least.

I like Blair a lot but his weaknesses are clear and obvious. If our team was a low tier playoff team or worse, I would play Blair more because hes got some potential left. But as of right now, we can't afford to develop him by letting him make the same mistakes over and over.


If not for Neal's crazy 3-pointer, we would've lost 4-1. And if you really watched the series, 4-1 is even an understatement of how we got beat by the Grizzlies.

It's not like we lost 4-3 by a last shot, say like Pistons lost to us in 05. In that situation, two teams were basically playing at the same level, and it went down to some loose balls, lucky shots or even one offense rebound. Then you might be able to say that the support from some role players didn't meet expectations.

So I agree 100% that our stars were largely outplayed by their stars is the first, second, and third biggest reason we lost. Just stop bashing role players when stars didn't perform. It does no good to anybody and anything, including this coming playoffs.

Obviously this rings true. We win by our superstars and we die by our superstars. But its not as simple as "bashing role players."

First of all, the big 3 have all made their names by being winners and competitors in the playoffs. A few bad seasons of inconsistent play isn't going to erase their playoff glory. Meanwhile, Bonner has struggled for at least the past 3 years of playoff basketball. This goes beyond "bashing" (but more like criticizing) role players but identifying a trend.

I do have some faith in Bonner this year. Our team is much deeper and filled with more weapons. The pressure isn't on him to be productive like last season. Also, Bonner isn't a one trick pony this time around. Hes playing nice defense and can catch some defenders off guard with his dribble drive. With that said, I wouldn't play him more then 18 minutes a game during the playoffs.