Ranking small forwards

[Arcadian]

Rank these great SFs at their peak performances. I'm only including players from the 90s and 2000s because it's more likely that everyone here has seen them play.

Carmelo Anthony
Kevin Durant
Grant Hill
LeBron James
Shawn Marion
Tracy McGrady
Chris Mullin
Paul Pierce
Scottie Pippen
Dominique Wilkins

[Brazil]

Leonard is shitting on all the guys of your list tbh

[FkLA]

1.Bron
2.Pippen
3.Hill
4.Tmac
5.Durant
6.Pierce
7.Melo
8.Marion

Didnt really get to see much of Nique or Mullin tbh, so I left them out.

[HarlemHeat37]

1. Lebron James
2. Scottie Pippen
3. Tracy McGrady
4. Kevin Durant
5. Grant Hill
6. Paul Pierce
7. Dominique Wilkins
8. Carmelo Anthony

9. Chris Mullin



10. Shawn Marion

[NewcastleKEG]

1. LeBron James
2. Dominique Wilkins
3. Scottie Pippen
4. Grant Hill
5. Kevin Durant
6. Carmello Anthony
7. Chris Mullin
8. Paul Pierce
9. Tracy McGrady


8. Shawn Marion

[NewcastleKEG]

James vs Wilkins vs Pippen vs Grant Hill vs Anthony vs Durant (Best 7 consecutive seasons)

James: 28.5 PPG - 7.4 TRB - 7.1 APG - 1.7 SPG - 0.9 BPG - 3.3 TOV - 49% - 33% - 74%

Wilkins: 28 PPG - 7.1 TRB - 2.8 APG - 1.5 SPG - 0.7 BPG - 2.6 TOV - 46% - 30% - 82%

Pippen: 20 PPG - 7.3 TRB - 5.9 APG - 2.2 SPG - 0.9 BPG - 3.0 TOV - 47% - 33% - 70%

Hill (6 seasons): 21.6 PPG - 7.9 TRB - 6.3 APG - 1.6 SPG - 0.6 BPG - 3.3 TOV - 47% - 25% - 74%

Anthony: 25.8 PPG - 6.5 TRB - 3.2 APG - 1.1 SPG - 0.5 BPG - 3.0 TOV - 46% - 32% - 81%

Durant (5 seasons): 26.1 PPG - 6.6 TRB - 2.8 APG - 1.2 SPG - 0.9 BPG - 3.1 TOV - 46% - 36% - 87%

McGrady: 26.9 PPG - 6.6 TRB - 5.4 APG - 1.5 SPG - 0.9 BPG - 2.6 TOV - 43% - 34% - 75%

Pierce: 24.8 PPG - 6.7 TRB - 4.1 APG - 1.6 SPG - 0.7 BPG - 3.3 TOV - 43% - 35% - 79%

[Pelicans78]

At their peak?

Lebron
McGrady/Durant (tie)
Grant Hill
Marion
Pippen
Pierce
Wilkins
Mullins
Anthony

[ambchang]

Lebron
Pippen
Hill
Durant
Nique
Pierce
Mullin
TMac
Melo
Marion

Mullin vs. TMac was tough for me. TMac was by far the better scorer, and a better defender if he wanted to, but he was a loser. TMac would have been #1, 2 or 3 if he played along Shaq during his prime though.

Melo is much worse than TMac.

Marion shouldn't even be in the same discussion. Players like Bernard King, Peja, Alex English, Worthy, Artest, Mashburn, Rice, and Miller (depends if you put him as a SF or SG) were all better SF during this era.

[Pelicans78]

Marion is underrated. He had some really good years in Phoenix. Beast defensively, and very good all-around.

[Goran Dragic]

Marion at his peak didn't know how to dribble a basketball or consistently make wide open shots.

[Pelicans78]

Marion at his peak didn't know how to dribble a basketball or consistently make wide open shots.

That's D'Antoni's fault. Plus, that's Trevor Ariza who you're talking about.

But also, half the guys on this list couldn't guard Kamala the Ugandan Warrior off the dribble.

[Goran Dragic]

That's D'Antoni's fault.
It doesn't matter who's fault it is. It could be hemann82's fault, that doesn't change the fact that Marion at his peak couldn't consistently make wide open shots or dribble a basketball.

[NewcastleKEG]

Point System Based On
- Points/Game
- Total Rebounds/Game
- Assists/Game
- Steals/Game
- Blocks/Game
- Turnovers/Game
- FG%
- 3PT%
- FT%








#8 Carmello Anthony
http://static8.businessinsider.com/image/4ec28995eab8eae358000019-400/carmelo-anthony.jpg










#7 Paul Pierce
http://www.emptythebench.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/ppierce1.jpg










#6 Grant Hill
http://www.guxed.net/wp-content/uploads/Grant-Hill2.jpg








#5 Tracy McGrady (TIE)
http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/sports_magic/files/2010/12/tracy-mcgrady-orlando-magic-cleveland-cavaliers-christmas-2003.jpg








#5 Dominique Wilkins (TIE)
http://www.nba.com/hawks/media/HWK_Classic_Nique_1st.jpg











#3 Scottie Pippen
http://sportige.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Scottie-Pippen.jpg









#2 Kevin Durant
http://blogs.seattleweekly.com/dailyweekly/kevin-durant-sonics01.jpg










#1 LeBron James
http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.412716%21/img/httpImage/image.jpg











Lower Score The Better

James: 24
Wilkins: 37
Pippen: 34
Hill: 43
Anthony: 50
Durant: 32
McGrady: 37
Pierce: 44

[Arcadian]

Do you think Durant will surpass James?

[NewcastleKEG]

Do you think Durant will surpass James?
Not statistically. James Assists Per Game average compared to the rest of the group is amazing. Plus the complaints over him not shooting enough helps him because his Shooting % will remain high.

But with Championships Durant could eclipse James in terms of GREATNESS.

[Josepatches_]

1. LeBron James
2. Dominique Wilkins
3. Scottie Pippen
4. Paul Pierce
5. Kevin Durant
6.Grant Hill
7. Carmello Anthony
8. Chris Mullin




9. Shawn Marion


T-Mac at his prime in Orlando was better than most of them but he was a SG

[Arcadian]

To those who downplayed Marion...see his 2005-06 season averages:

21.8 ppg, 11.8 rpg, 1.8 apg, 1.7 bpg, 2.0 spg, 52.5 fg%

Come on...that's worthy of this conversation.

[NewcastleKEG]

Chris Mullin is getting a raw deal here


Mullin (6-Best Seasons)
25 PPG - 5.3 TRB - 4.2 APG - 1.9 SPG - 0.7 BPG - 3.0 TOV - 52% - 35% - 87%

Pierce (7-Best Seasons): 24.8 PPG - 6.7 TRB - 4.1 APG - 1.6 SPG - 0.7 BPG - 3.3 TOV - 43% - 35% - 79%

Grant Hill (6-Best Seasons: 21.6 PPG - 7.9 TRB - 6.3 APG - 1.6 SPG - 0.6 BPG - 3.3 TOV - 47% - 25% - 74%

McGrady (7-Best Seasons): 26.9 PPG - 6.6 TRB - 5.4 APG - 1.5 SPG - 0.9 BPG - 2.6 TOV - 43% - 34% - 75%




Looks like
1. McGrady
2. Mullin
3. Grant Hill
4. Paul Pierce

[NewcastleKEG]

Shawn Marion (6-Best Seasons)

19.7 PPG - 10.3 TRB - 2.1 APG - 2.0 SPG - 1.4 BPG - 1.7 TOV - 47% - 34% - 83%


Hmm. Considering the shooting percentages.....that is impressive. But the assists is really lacking


I'd still put Marion below everyone else on the list but yes he deserves to be listed

[irishock]

TMac is above anyone not named LeBron. Dude flat out had it all. Scoring, jumpshot, slashing, rebounding, passing, court vision, defense (when he needed to). Just lacked the mentality and work ethic. Easily would've surpassed Kobe if he did.

[NewcastleKEG]

TMac is above anyone not named LeBron. Dude flat out had it all. Scoring, jumpshot, slashing, rebounding, passing, court vision, defense (when he needed to). Just lacked the mentality and work ethic. Easily would've surpassed Kobe if he did.
Yeah but defense is half the game.

If you add per game rebounds, steals, blocks


Marion: 13.7
Larry Bird: 12.8

Pippen: 10.4
Grant Hill: 10.1
James: 10.0

Wilkins: 9.3
Pierce: 9.0
McGrady: 9.0

Durant: 8.7
Anthony: 8.1
Mullin: 7.9




Credit Marion's ridiculous amount to Suns funky system but I think overall that is a good representation of where you would rank those players defensively.

[Pelicans78]

Yeah but defense is half the game.

If you add per game rebounds, steals, blocks


Marion: 13.7
Larry Bird: 12.8

Pippen: 10.4
Grant Hill: 10.1
James: 10.0

Wilkins: 9.3
Pierce: 9.0
McGrady: 9.0

Durant: 8.7
Anthony: 8.1
Mullin: 7.9




Credit Marion's ridiculous amount to Suns funky system but I think overall that is a good representation of where you would rank those players defensively.

Adding rebounds, steals, and blocks doesn't determine overall defense. Doesn't make sense. Leaves out many other factors like help defense, man-to-man defense. You're just throwing a 3 stats together and quantifying it as overall defense. What the hell is up with that?

[namlook]

TMac is above anyone not named LeBron. Dude flat out had it all. Scoring, jumpshot, slashing, rebounding, passing, court vision, defense (when he needed to). Just lacked the mentality and work ethic. Easily would've surpassed Kobe if he did.

TMac was always soft on defense. You're right his work ethic was lacking. He had the tools but not the drive. Hell, Shaq would have easily been the greatest player in NBA history if he had Jordan and Kobe's worth ethic and drive.

[NewcastleKEG]

Adding rebounds, steals, and blocks doesn't determine overall defense. Doesn't make sense. Leaves out many other factors like help defense, man-to-man defense. You're just throwing a 3 stats together and quantifying it as overall defense. What the hell is up with that?
If you ranked those players by defense, the point system I put together would look very similar to your list I predict

[stretch]

At their very best, T-Mac, Carmello, and Lebron are in the top tier, with Hill and Durant a tier below.

Carmello I think is the most polished, versatile scorer perhaps in NBA history. There are absolutely no weaknesses in his ability to score points, and he is the only player I have ever seen that I can say that about. However, his poor shot selection and seeming inability to raise the level of his teammates play has plagued him.

Lebron is a freak of nature amongst freaks of nature. To this day, he still makes other disgustingly gifted athletes look average in comparison to him. Not to mention he has an incredible playmaking ability. IMO he is the modern day Magic Johnson, in terms of his unusual combination of size with a point guard skillset. Yeah yeah, people will call me stupid since Magic won 5 championships... well Magic did that while playing alongside the best big man in NBA history, along with a pretty stacked team in a consistently weak Western conference.

T-Mac is the most naturally gifted player I have ever seen. If he had the work ethic of MJ, he would have been better. And not just slightly better, I think he would have been unquestionably the best basketball player the world has ever seen. I've never seen a player that could average over 30 ppg like there's absolutely nothing to it. He made the game just seem so simple and easy. I always wonder what he could have made it look like if he consistently gave a crap.

[Giuseppe]

would've

tee, hee.

[JamStone]

I'll rank my top 5 from that list.

1. LeBron
2. T-Mac
3. Grant Hill
4. Pippen
5. Durant

I'd consider T-Mac either a SG or a SF. He played pretty much each perimeter position. Although he was often listed as a SG earlier in his career, I don't really see much of a difference in positions when it comes to him. And at his peak, he was ridiculously good. Durant has some time to climb in the rankings so I kept him down for now. Pippen was really good but I don't regard him as highly as many others do. I know he had a great 1993-94 season in a generally weak East, but I still don't put too much stock in him as a franchise player. In his peak, Grant Hill was crazy good. Not the scorer LeBron is, but about as good an all around player in the other areas of the game, playmaking, defense, rebounding.

[HarlemHeat37]

Pippen is one of the most overrated legends in NBA history IMO, but I'd still take him at #2, although it's close..

[Giuseppe]

^Without him, MJ would still be driftin' in the winds at, Kobe: 5 - MJ: O.

[Killakobe81]

I'll rank my top 5 from that list.

1. LeBron
2. T-Mac
3. Grant Hill
4. Pippen
5. Durant

I'd consider T-Mac either a SG or a SF. He played pretty much each perimeter position. Although he was often listed as a SG earlier in his career, I don't really see much of a difference in positions when it comes to him. And at his peak, he was ridiculously good. Durant has some time to climb in the rankings so I kept him down for now. Pippen was really good but I don't regard him as highly as many others do. I know he had a great 1993-94 season in a generally weak East, but I still don't put too much stock in him as a franchise player. In his peak, Grant Hill was crazy good. Not the scorer LeBron is, but about as good an all around player in the other areas of the game, playmaking, defense, rebounding.

Co-signed. Hill was a poor man's Lebron. He had the skill set and was truly athletic in his prime ..but Lebron is on another planet as an athlete ...Nique had better hops but not the handle or speed of Lebron. Pippen had the musculature but was not as explosive as James. McGrady probably is closest offensively and was a better shooter but Lebron was stronger and a much better defender.
Nique was a beast who is getting underrated in this thread ...tbh

[Arcadian]

OK, I'm gonna expand the conversation a bit. Since everyone is taking James at #1, do you think he will surpass Bird or Julius Erving?

I should clarify. By "surpass" I mean do you think he is a better player than [insert player] at his peak?

[Killakobe81]

OK, I'm gonna expand the conversation a bit. Since everyone is taking James at #1, do you think he will surpass Bird or Julius Erving?

I should clarify. By "surpass" I mean do you think he is a better player than [insert player] at his peak?

Hasn't passed him yet but he nabs at least 2 titles he has a compelling case as greatest SF

[Arcadian]

I really don't think winning championships is a large determinant in this conversation. After all, we are talking about peak individual performances. So regardless of what teammates they had, regardless of their career achievements, but just focusing on pure basketball skill/greatness (whatever you want to call it) at one moment in time, I'm asking you to pick one as better than the other. So which is it?

[HarlemHeat37]

Dr. J's peak was in the ABA, so it isn't comparable IMO..

As a regular season player, Lebron is better than Bird..Bird is arguably the clutchest player in NBA history, while Lebron has choked in the Finals, which is currently the difference in their peak performance IMO..

[ambchang]

^Without him, MJ would still be driftin' in the winds at, Kobe: 5 - MJ: O.

What type of people qualify wins again?

[ambchang]

Marion is getting massively overrated based on his stats. He could not create a shot, his entire offense was based off of Nash's creation. He is the type of player who could be easily shut down with enough attention (see Spurs with Bowen).

His defense was also massively overrated. Everybody talking about him being able to cover anybody, but name one single elite player he shut down/slowed down in the playoffs. I can't think of a single person.

As for TMac, another stat stuffer. Though his Magic sucked, but that team won what, 20 games in one of those seasons? Just flat out embarrassing.

[NewcastleKEG]

I really don't think winning championships is a large determinant in this conversation. After all, we are talking about peak individual performances. So regardless of what teammates they had, regardless of their career achievements, but just focusing on pure basketball skill/greatness (whatever you want to call it) at one moment in time, I'm asking you to pick one as better than the other. So which is it?
One moment in time?

So one season, one month, one week? The simplest answer would be look at which of them won regular season or finals MVP & compare/contrast the numbers

[Killakobe81]

I really don't think winning championships is a large determinant in this conversation. After all, we are talking about peak individual performances. So regardless of what teammates they had, regardless of their career achievements, but just focusing on pure basketball skill/greatness (whatever you want to call it) at one moment in time, I'm asking you to pick one as better than the other. So which is it?

Forgot about setting ... I would lean towards Lebron because he is such a great two way player now ...

[Giuseppe]

What type of people qualify wins again?

Pussies & assholes.

[JamStone]

Marion is getting massively overrated based on his stats. He could not create a shot, his entire offense was based off of Nash's creation. He is the type of player who could be easily shut down with enough attention (see Spurs with Bowen).

His defense was also massively overrated. Everybody talking about him being able to cover anybody, but name one single elite player he shut down/slowed down in the playoffs. I can't think of a single person.

I didn't read the entire thread but seems like a lot of people aren't praising Marion very much. And while Nash helped make Marion a much more efficient offensive player, Marion was still a 17-18 point scorer before Nash joined the Suns. He has an awkward offensive game because he's mostly a junk scorer, but it wasn't completely reliant on Nash. Nash just made him better.



As for TMac, another stat stuffer. Though his Magic sucked, but that team won what, 20 games in one of those seasons? Just flat out embarrassing.

He basically single-handedly carried those Orlando Magic teams his first 3 seasons there. With all of those Grant Hill injuries, T-Mac was playing with Mike Miller and guys like Darrell Armstrong, Pat Garrity, Andrew DeClerq, and Bo Outlaw as starters and took them to the playoffs those first 3 seasons. T-Mac was a monster his first few seasons with the Magic.

[ambchang]

I didn't read the entire thread but seems like a lot of people aren't praising Marion very much. And while Nash helped make Marion a much more efficient offensive player, Marion was still a 17-18 point scorer before Nash joined the Suns. He has an awkward offensive game because he's mostly a junk scorer, but it wasn't completely reliant on Nash. Nash just made him better.

My position is that just having Marion in the conversation is overrating him. He was a junk scorer, a better version of a Cedric Ceballos if you will, on the offensive side of the ball. He cannot create his own shot at all. He is a great player to have on the team, but he is not a 1st or 2nd option type of player, like all the other players listed.

As for defense, Marion was very reliant on this freakish athletic ability, but have little skills in those department. He can guard every type of player, but wasn't all that effective throughout. And to say that he was even a good defensive player because of his versatility is, imo, overrating him.



He basically single-handedly carried those Orlando Magic teams his first 3 seasons there. With all of those Grant Hill injuries, T-Mac was playing with Mike Miller and guys like Darrell Armstrong, Pat Garrity, Andrew DeClerq, and Bo Outlaw as starters and took them to the playoffs those first 3 seasons. T-Mac was a monster his first few seasons with the Magic.

Not saying TMac had an awesome supporting cast, because he didn't, but Pippen carried a team with Grant, Pete Myers, and Bill Cartwright/Stacey King as starters to the 2nd round of the playoffs two years in a row. Nique, Lebron, and Hill all had mediocre supporting casts, but they were able to carry the teams.

Being able to carry a weak team should be a pre-requisite to a top 3 ranking of SF in the last 2 decades.